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Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:05:00 - [1] This is a ridiculous thing to have in the game. Outranging T2 high-SP pilots with T1 guns and nubie characters is leaving a number of people clueless as to what CCP are thinking with this item in game. What is the reason for having this? I don't see how the game benefits, and can see a lot of ways it detracts. To those who say, range is unimportant, "why cant you have theoretical Covops warp you in close range", "your tactics are useless", "its dps is low", "why dont you just train caldari" and all the other gloating from the k3w1 1n3z - get a clue. Fleet battles are a dirty business. Asking your enemy to sit still while you get in position during skirmishes does not ever happen. If you have already spent months on training BS5, Large Specialisations 5 etc etc retraining is a joke. This penalises high-SP characters who have to use expensive and hard to find mods to achieve less, based on a change we knew nothing about when starting on a racial specialisation. Thanks guys. I can understand what CCP were thinking with reducing the T2 ammo effects. T2 battleships are inbound - the changes in this context are clear. However - rokhs are 100% unbalanced, and effectively laugh at people who have trained hard on tactics, skillpoints and technique to make a difference. So now that I have your attention, what can be done? I have no idea. I'm still a bit stunned that this gigantic fubar made it past the reality check. I'm a fan of the other changes - and congrats to CCP for the smooth deployment. I do like the game, honestly.. but, guys, what the hell...
Orin Fatch The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 09:24:00 - [2] /signed I admit, give caldari pilots a nice fleet ship, but not one that can out range every other current one in game. Quote by some one, "If the target is out of range of your guns, your doing NO damage. And regardles of their damage, The Rokh's optimal range possiblitys can leave you in a some what hopless fighting situation.."
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.12.02 10:00:00 - [3] Yeah - What about a +10% lock range and scan resolution pr BS lv? That will make a nice fleet ship but will not be so excellent for those running 350mm railguns and Blasters...
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 10:05:00 - [4] Edited by: Morris Falter on 02/12/2006 10:05:30 Not a bad idea. Caldari do have a track record in electronics already, so something along those lines would be a nice idea, if not that particular thing.
Pinky Denmark	Posted - 2006.12.02 10:12:00 - [5] BTW: I love the Rokh as it is and I don't think the advantage is nber... but but there will perhaps be situations where 425mm's will be too far range on the Rokh - That being said I expect CCP to reduce all long range fighting at some point so the difference won't be too big... The issue isn't major yet and will probably not be looked closely upon for a while - lets see...
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:34:00 - [6] I don't really know what this is about. Are you comparing this ship with the megathrons range?? Afaik caldari have always been about range, and that is why they don't have a single high damage uber closerange weapon. Atleast thats what I hear from every gallente blaster ship user, "caldari has range and lower damage, gallente have closerange and uberwtfbbq damage". Or did I miss the point
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus I don't really know what this is about. Are you comparing this ship with the megathrons range?? Afaik caldari have always been about range, and that is why they don't have a single high damage uber closerange weapon. Atleast thats what I hear from every gallente blaster ship user, "caldari has range and lower damage, gallente have closerange and uberwtfbbq damage". Or did I miss the point i have to agree with you... all the Caldari gun ships have bonusses to Range... and nobody is whining that the range of the Eagle is to big... it can have an optimal of 196km with 250mm Railgun II's, Spike M and a few Tracking Computers/Enhancers... the same for the Vulture (if i'm correct)... range isn't everything... i agree, it's a big difference... but isn't the range in a fleet decided by the shortest range sniper? this means the Rokh is at the same range as the rest of the battleships but does less damage... bonusses on Rokh : 5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Optimal range per level... ships that have the same bonusses : - Merlin (5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level.) - Harpy (10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal Resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic Resistance per level. 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level) - Moa (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistance per level.) - Eagle (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistances per level. 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level) - Ferox (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level) - Vulture (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all shield resistances per level. 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links per level) as you see, completely inline with the rest... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
rocka The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 12:53:00 - [8] but sov it still outranges the tech 2 minmatar/amarr/gallantee pilots by around 100km that just isn¦t fair PLS STOP GANKING ME
Belial02 Amarr The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 13:05:00 - [9] Yeah maybe Caldaris needed a fleet ship but that is just too much. It used to be around 40-50% of ppl able to fly a Raven and now its gonna be 75% able to fly the Rohk... Can someone please look into balance for once?
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 14:04:00 - [10] i never said it was balanced... i only said it was inline with the Caldari ships... ;) Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith

Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 17:08:00 - [11] You've missed the main point - T1 ships with T1 mods that achieve more, better, for less ISK. Why should I have to pay 8m / Tachyon II, then 3m for T2 ammo.. (current market prices).. after months training to achieve less than a T1 fit ship with minimal skills? Dont nerf it - just level the playing field. This is outrageously unbalanced.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.02 17:13:00 - [12] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus I don't really know what this is about. Are you comparing this ship with the megathrons range?? Comparing T1 Rokh setup with T2 fleet battleship setup, for range and lock distance Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Afaik caldari have always been about range, and that is why they don't have a single high damage uber closerange weapon. Atleast thats what I hear from every gallente blaster ship user, "caldari has range and lower damage, gallente have closerange and uberwtfbbq damage". Or did I miss the point A little, but dont worry. CCP did too.. Raven and Scorp are both supreme close range ships. Torp raven with an ECM tank and nos is a total machine - give it a go sometime. Caldari T2 ships have good range - Ferox has ok range too, with T2 guns.. but for a pure T1 setup to be on the same field as a T2.. I dont see how this helps the game, except to pee in non-caldari pilots porridge. Months training, mega bucks on guns and ammo, skillbooks, and now this.. I'd love to know what the reasoning behind the rokh is, because, believe me, I'm trying.. but I can't see how its balanced.
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.12.02 21:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Sovereign533 bonusses on Rokh : 5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Optimal range per level... ships that have the same bonusses : - Merlin (5% bonus to shield resistances and 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range per skill level.) - Harpy (10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Thermal Resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic Resistance per level. 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per level) - Moa (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistance per level.) - Eagle (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistances per level. 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level) - Ferox (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level) - Vulture (10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to all shield resistances per level. 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Siege Warfare Links per level) as you see, completely inline with the rest... You forgot to note that the Rokh has 8 turrets and 8 highs, whereas all of the rest of the caldari gunboats are lacking 1 or 2 turret slots for their highs. So, no, it's not completely in line with all the rest. Ridiculous, tbqfh. ---
Self Similar	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:21:00 - [14] Well, just going to have to deal with it, it seems. I can't see it changing anytime soon.. at least with an apoc its still very possible to hit at 200km with plenty damage. Can't wait for next fleet battle to try it out though.. but its clear that the rokh is going to be a major part of battles for forseeable future.. which isnt a great thing for eve.
Morris Falter The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.03 19:22:00 - [15] Originally by: Self Similar Well, just going to have to deal with it, it seems. I can't see it changing anytime soon.. at least with an apoc its still very possible to hit at 200km with plenty damage. Can't wait for next fleet battle to try it out though.. but its clear that the rokh is going to be a major part of battles for forseeable future.. which isnt a great thing for eve. wrong char 4tw.. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.03 20:25:00 - [16] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 03/12/2006 20:28:09 Originally by: Morris Falter A little, but dont worry. CCP did too.. Raven and Scorp are both supreme close range ships. Torp raven with an ECM tank and nos is a total machine - give it a go sometime. Caldari T2 ships have good range - Ferox has ok range too, with T2 guns.. but for a pure T1 setup to be on the same field as a T2.. I dont see how this helps the game, except to pee in non-caldari pilots porridge. Months training, mega bucks on guns and ammo, skillbooks, and now this.. I'd love to know what the reasoning behind the rokh is, because, believe me, I'm trying.. but I can't see how its balanced. I really really wouldn't call the scorp a close range ship. If anything this ship is long range, fitting racial jammers and jamming away at over 150 km is what this ship is about. At close range this ship would die easily. And for the raven, well torps were nerfed, and so was ecm. I'm pretty sure you won't see too many ecm ravens anymore, otherwise I hope I bump into them in 0.0. Caldari ships are also the slowest and least agile of all the races, so they arn't that good at closerange compared to the others. And with the bonuses the megathorn gets(tracking and damage), I don't see a problem with the rokh outranging it with T1 guns. Or would you rather have the megathorn getting an optimal bonus instead of the damage bonus?? Originally by: Wat0721 You forgot to note that the Rokh has 8 turrets and 8 highs, whereas all of the rest of the caldari gunboats are lacking 1 or 2 turret slots for their highs. So, no, it's not completely in line with all the rest. Ridiculous, tbqfh. Yup it is ridiculous. I really hope CCP fixes these ships so we would see a ferox with guns instead of missiles cause the other caldari rail ship are really lacking.
DriveCrash The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:02:00 - [17] t2 fitted mega with loads of skills, 150km to do some damage. t1 fitted rokh with **** skills, 200km doing wtf damage. I got sniped at 240km like i was getting hit by a blaster boat. Why? because the $&# had lead loaded. I asked him about it.. He said "anything over lead puts my optimal further than i can target due to 250km target cap" .. nice. why dont we just delete all non-caldari flying pilots now and get it over with? To the devs: Please stop playing caldari. -DCO
hired goon Black Lance Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.05 12:11:00 - [18] Welcome to the ECM range nerf of 2004! Please have a seat and I'll make you all a nice hot cup of STFU to enjoy while you stay! -omg-
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 05/12/2006 14:29:04 Originally by: DriveCrash t2 fitted mega with loads of skills, 150km to do some damage. t1 fitted rokh with **** skills, 200km doing wtf damage. I got sniped at 240km like i was getting hit by a blaster boat. Why? because the $&# had lead loaded. I asked him about it.. He said "anything over lead puts my optimal further than i can target due to 250km target cap" .. nice. why dont we just delete all non-caldari flying pilots now and get it over with? To the devs: Please stop playing caldari. The megathron will outdamage the rokh until the megathron hits it's optimal because of the damage bonus it recieves. And looking at the bonuses on the megathron I would say that it's ment to be a close range ship. Otherwise it wouldn't get a tracking and damage bonus. The rokh get's a range bonus which indicates it's ment to me a sniper/long range ship. I have absolutely no idea why you are crying about your megathron not being able to outdamage or outrange a dedicated long range ship And why arn't you whining about the megathron severely outdamaging the rokh at close range with blasters and 5 drones deployed??
DriveCrash The Graduates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.05 14:55:00 - [20] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 05/12/2006 14:29:04 The megathron will outdamage the rokh until the megathron hits it's optimal because of the damage bonus it recieves. And looking at the bonuses on the megathron I would say that it's ment to be a close range ship. Otherwise it wouldn't get a tracking and damage bonus. The rokh get's a range bonus which indicates it's ment to me a sniper/long range ship. I have absolutely no idea why you are crying about your megathron not being able to outdamage or outrange a dedicated long range ship And why arn't you whining about the megathron severely outdamaging the rokh at close range with blasters and 5 drones deployed?? because my mega has to use low damage high range ammo as it is. the rokh can use lower range high damage ammo. point is the rokh easily out ranges (and thus outdamages by reduced need of tracking mods and more damage mods) anything else by a LONG shot. Yes the rokh is tier 3, every other sniper ship is tier 1 or 2. But honestly how do the other tier 3 bs's compare? They dont. Hyperion is supposed to be a blaster boat? I've taken on 2 so far in blastermega and spanked them. drones ftw.. just not seeing a very balanced system here. I have yet to find a rokh blaster, but I've heard rumors of them being mean. whatever, if this is the way it's supposed to be, guess I'll cave in and train caldari bs so i can compete on the sniper line. Just looking forward to the fleets of rokh's vs rokh's. whee. -DCO

Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:34:00 - [21] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 05/12/2006 15:39:43 Originally by: DriveCrash because my mega has to use low damage high range ammo as it is. the rokh can use lower range high damage ammo. point is the rokh easily out ranges (and thus outdamages by reduced need of tracking mods and more damage mods) anything else by a LONG shot. Yes the rokh is tier 3, every other sniper ship is tier 1 or 2. But honestly how do the other tier 3 bs's compare? They dont. Hyperion is supposed to be a blaster boat? I've taken on 2 so far in blastermega and spanked them. drones ftw.. just not seeing a very balanced system here. I have yet to find a rokh blaster, but I've heard rumors of them being mean. whatever, if this is the way it's supposed to be, guess I'll cave in and train caldari bs so i can compete on the sniper line. Just looking forward to the fleets of rokh's vs rokh's. whee. So you want the mega to wtfbbq everything at closerange with those blasters and ebil drones and you want it to snip just as well as the rokh does?? I really don't see the balance here EDIT: and have you compared damage and range with the mini tier 3 and amarr tier 3 ships. Besides, as already stated, the caldari race is about long range, and sucks pretty much at close range. It's the other way around with the gallente ships, eventhough the megahron used to be one of the best sniper ships out there before the rokh, which seems unbalanced to me since it's the hardest hitting close range ship also..
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.05 15:37:00 - [22] Originally by: DriveCrash Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 05/12/2006 14:29:04 The megathron will outdamage the rokh until the megathron hits it's optimal because of the damage bonus it recieves. And looking at the bonuses on the megathron I would say that it's ment to be a close range ship. Otherwise it wouldn't get a tracking and damage bonus. The rokh get's a range bonus which indicates it's ment to me a sniper/long range ship. I have absolutely no idea why you are crying about your megathron not being able to outdamage or outrange a dedicated long range ship And why arn't you whining about the megathron severely outdamaging the rokh at close range with blasters and 5 drones deployed?? because my mega has to use low damage high range ammo as it is. the rokh can use lower range high damage ammo. point is the rokh easily out ranges (and thus outdamages by reduced need of tracking mods and more damage mods) anything else by a LONG shot. Yes the rokh is tier 3, every other sniper ship is tier 1 or 2. But honestly how do the other tier 3 bs's compare? They dont. Hyperion is supposed to be a blaster boat? I've taken on 2 so far in blastermega and spanked them. drones ftw.. just not seeing a very balanced system here. I have yet to find a rokh blaster, but I've heard rumors of them being mean. whatever, if this is the way it's supposed to be, guess I'll cave in and train caldari bs so i can compete on the sniper line. Just looking forward to the fleets of rokh's vs rokh's. whee. sorry, sorry... but did you even compared Spike with Lead? or 425mm Railgun II's with 425mm Railgun I's? there is a HUGE difference in damage... especially if you add it up... ok, it will have a nice range with Antimatter... but it's nowhere close to sniping ranges... get close and fast, and it dies fast... i'm actually looking forward to see my enemy's jump into "expendable" t1 fitted Rokh's... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
deshan Gallente The Mighty All Blacks	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:22:00 - [23] I like the rokh as it is tbh. ItÆs not that uber cus it doesnÆt have a dmg bonus at all. Of course the higher dmg type ammo at the longer range makes up for that but still I think it is a very fair ship due to the lack of the dmg bonus. And on the subject of changing to bonuses to only support fleet battle I think is lame because people might want to utilize it for other types of combat like ratting in 0.0 where most fleet battles are.
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus So you want the mega to wtfbbq everything at closerange with those blasters and ebil drones and you want it to snip just as well as the rokh does?? I really don't see the balance here EDIT: and have you compared damage and range with the mini tier 3 and amarr tier 3 ships. Besides, as already stated, the caldari race is about long range, and sucks pretty much at close range. It's the other way around with the gallente ships, eventhough the megahron used to be one of the best sniper ships out there before the rokh, which seems unbalanced to me since it's the hardest hitting close range ship also.. This is not a ***** Mega vs. Rokh issue, it's a Rokh vs. every other *** BS in use. I wish people would get that through their *** skulls, because it's starting to me off. How does it compare to the other tier 3 BS? Can the Rokh shoot over ~70km further then all the other tier 3 BS? Check. <-- and there is the fricken problem. Damage doesn't mean squat when you can't hit back. And nevermind the fact that those people who didn't train tech 2 hybrids got screwed. It's all about the Caldari though, the sooner people understand this the better we will all be. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by."** - Will Rogers
Barsei Cataclysm Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.05 17:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Morris Falter This is a ridiculous thing to have in the game. Outranging T2 high-SP pilots with T1 guns and nubie characters is leaving a number of people clueless as to what CCP are thinking with this item in game. What is the reason for having this? I don't see how the game benefits, and can see a lot of ways it detracts. To those who say, range is unimportant, "why cant you have theoretical Covops warp you in close range", "your tactics are useless", "its dps is low", "why dont you just train caldari" and all the other gloating from the k3w1 1n3z - get a clue. Fleet battles are a dirty business. Asking your enemy to sit still while you get in position during skirmishes does not ever happen. If you have already spent months on training BS5, Large Specialisations 5 etc etc retraining is a joke. This penalises high-SP characters who have to use expensive and hard to find mods to achieve less, based on a change we knew nothing about when starting on a racial specialisation. Thanks guys. I can understand what CCP were thinking with reducing the T2 ammo effects. T2 battleships are inbound - the changes in this context are clear. However - rokhs are 100% unbalanced, and effectively laugh at people who have trained hard on tactics, skillpoints and technique to make a difference. So now that I have your attention, what can be done? I have no idea. I'm still a bit stunned that this gigantic fubar made it past the reality check. I'm a fan of the other changes - and congrats to CCP for the smooth deployment. I do like the game, honestly.. but, guys, what the hell... you are attacked by a rokh fleet ??? a typical fleet have some geddons/apocs, megas and tempest too. i dont think that all or any mega pilot would learn for a rokh, then the next is the mega have higher alpha strike and better dps.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.05 20:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Tribunal This is not a ***** Mega vs. Rokh issue, it's a Rokh vs. every other *** BS in use. I wish people would get that through their *** skulls, because it's starting to me off. How does it compare to the other tier 3 BS? Can the Rokh shoot over ~70km further then all the other tier 3 BS? Check. <-- and there is the fricken problem. Damage doesn't mean squat when you can't hit back. And nevermind the fact that those people who didn't train tech 2 hybrids got screwed. It's all about the Caldari though, the sooner people understand this the better we will all be. whaaa whhaa You really should settle down little fella, no need to get all worked up, just because you don't understand balance doesn't mean CCP don't. ALL the other tier 3 BS gets either a damage or a rof bonus, only the rokh gets the range bonus, but NO damage bonus. This way the ROKH will be the most effective at long range while it will be at close range compared to the others. And besides with the right skills and fitting most of the other ship will be able to shoot just as long, or close to the rokh. And just because you think that popping shuttles at 250 km "IS TAH MOST IMPORTANT THING IN EVE doesn't mean that every ship should to be able to do that" It's all about the Caldari though gotta love every biased ** that jumps on that bandwagon
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus whaaa whhaa You really should settle down little fella, no need to get all worked up, just because you don't understand balance doesn't mean CCP don't. I can use a Rokh and tech 2 large hybrids, so the whaa whaa comment is just flat out retarded. Did you read and comprehend that? Let me say it once more, I can fly a Rokh AND use tech 2 large hybrids. I can see how the Rokh is NOT balanced because I use it. Quote: ALL the other tier 3 BS gets either a damage or a rof bonus, only the rokh gets the range bonus, but NO damage bonus. This way the ROKH will be the most effective at long range while it will be ** at close range compared to the others. And besides with the right skills and fitting most of the other ship will be able to shoot just as long, or close to the rokh. No the other ships can't shoot as long or "close" to the Rokh. This comment alone tells me that you haven't flown a Rokh or tried fitting the other battleships for ranged combat. That no damage bonus is kinda made up for the fact that a Rokh can use higher damaging ammo at every range, other then point blank, when comparing hybrid ships. That range bonus that the Rokh has also strips away the one thing that autocannons had going for it, range. Quote: And just because you think that popping shuttles at 250 km "IS TAH MOST IMPORTANT THING IN EVE doesn't mean that every ship should to be able to do that" I never said that you tard. Shooting at 250k is important in fleet battles. Being able to shoot further then any other battleship in the game by ~70km is IMPORTANT. People will, and have, been exploiting this very aspect of the ship. Quote: It's all about the Caldari though gotta love every biased ignorant that jumps on that bandwagon I sure did jump on the bandwagon, that's why I can now fly the Rokh. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by."** - Will Rogers
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.12.05 21:31:00 - [28] The Rokh gives Tech 1 pilots a chance to participate feasibly in fleet combat. Get off your high horse. Thanks. Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
konkord eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:40:00 - [29] This "Rokh can lock and aggress 70km+ further than the nearest BS" is a crap argument. Why? because without tactical insta's that BS cant get at that range from its target!!! And even when its 220 - 250km away from you, it throws bits of lead at you as if it were throwing bits of paper. lightweight paper, designed to inflict very little damage. I tanked a Rokh shooting me, in a deimos, i approached it from approx 210km away and got within range to give it some terminal hurt (SiSi). Battleship for Battleship? so what...?? Ok so the current battleships are positioned in such a way that distance = less damage and more damage = ROF and other damage/distance/ROF matrices... but have a look at the DPS of a Rokh again, and you'll realise that while it can snipe something small, alot easier (ceptors, haulers, T1 cruisers) It means little else. Fleet battles. Well, yea, if the gang you leading is purely Rokh's then they're gunna have some fun, but they're gunna need a cov ops pilot to give them ranged insta's. And if that gang is mixed, the Rokh loses the use of its bonus, its optimal is selectable and yes it can change ammo/damage accordingly but that said, at 150km it still cant change to high dmg tech II ammo, and regardless of the tech I ammo it selects, regardless of its optimal it still looses out on a DPS basis due to the lack of BS based dmg bonus. So what are you left with, when you pilot a Rokh... Something that used tactically can give a range bonus. Something that cant actually give an advantage to a fleet battle unless it warps in at its own range or is in a Rokh only fleet. Something that punches like a girl. An infant girl. An infant girl with socks on her hands. 10 pairs of socks. The rokh. Its a good ship, granted, its going to be the <0.4 gate sniping ship to pwn. And yea, in certain situations its gunna give a true and clear advantage.... but hey, so do all the tier 3 bs's. Simply, if you cant see what the downfalls are of the Rokh, then you need to open your eyes. and those of you whom complain of its advantage, need to skill up and fly one, because throwing bits of paper at your enemy excellently, wrecking for (no more than) 300 HP is complete arse. Yea, i can hit you at 220km, but so can wind, and it does about the same damage. ----------------------
Stive Svenskere	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:51:00 - [30] ^^ to the dude above me You do know, that the deimos has extremly high resistances in kenetic and thermal right? Really poor example tbfh.

Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.05 23:59:00 - [31] Originally by: Barsei you are attacked by a rokh fleet ??? a typical fleet have some geddons/apocs, megas and tempest too. i dont think that all or any mega pilot would learn for a rokh, then the next is the mega have higher alpha strike and better dps. Well I recently recieved an e-mail from one of our fleet commanders telling the ENTIRE CORP to train at least Caldari BS 4 and Large Hybrid Turret 4 and I'm guessing theres many others out there in EVE that have gotten similar mails. Fleets used to be a mixture of T1 and T2 fitted ships since they could hit at the same range. Then T2 ammo was released and fleets slowly coverted into entirely T2 fit w/ T2 long range ammo due to the extra range making T1 fit ships useless. I see no reason why fleets won't slowly migrate from T2 fit BS to T2 fit Rokhs due to the extra range making T2 fit anything else useless.
Azerrad InExile	Posted - 2006.12.06 00:04:00 - [32] Originally by: konkord Fleet battles. Well, yea, if the gang you leading is purely Rokh's then they're gunna have some fun, but they're gunna need a cov ops pilot to give them ranged insta's. And if that gang is mixed, the Rokh loses the use of its bonus, its optimal is selectable and yes it can change ammo/damage accordingly but that said, at 150km it still cant change to high dmg tech II ammo, and regardless of the tech I ammo it selects, regardless of its optimal it still looses out on a DPS basis due to the lack of BS based dmg bonus. Even at normal BS sniping range the Rokhs range bonus is not wasted since it frees up slots. With BS 5 the Rokh can hit out to 250km with 1 tracking enhancer while the other fleet BS are wasting 2 additional slots to hit out to ~180km. This gives the Rokh two free slots to fit shield extenders, shield hardners, etc. The Rokh can put up a stronger tank than any other fleet BS while still outranging it... and only giving up about 7% DPS for the privelage.
Hida Kage Caldari Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2006.12.06 00:54:00 - [33] Can someone explain to me why 250km range in Fleet engagements is so important? With the introduction of the new scanning system, Recon probe launchers, and warp to 0, can't you at 0 km from any enemy forces in under 20 seconds? Even just 1 probe launcher every 10th person would be more than enough in a fleet of 30 or 40. I mean, a single squad of 9 Blaster equiped Megathron's or Torpedo Ravens along with an interdictor would seem to put the hurt on any almost any sized purely ranged Rokh fleet. Heck, the guy doing the scanning doesn't even need to be on the grid or visible. So why is 250km range so important?
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.12.06 03:23:00 - [34] ^^ been wondering that too. But I know there are definately times when it is huge. 1) guarding a gate. You have guys 200km out from gate. Bunch of short range guys jump through gate. Many of them will be BBQed and not able to return fire. 2) You want to sit 200km behind your dreads who are blowing up a pos. At 200km you can provide cover but still be outside POS huge gun cycle range. At say 50km, you would still got shot up by the big guns. 3) Hit and run. A Bs gang warps 200km off, they can snipe and then retreat before taking any damage if you don't also have long range guns. Those were the three I thought of using logic. I have not participated in any sniper BS battles yet, but I would assume they are at least close. having more range than your opponent is really helpful.
Barsei Cataclysm Enterprises	Posted - 2006.12.06 09:48:00 - [35] Originally by: Tribunal That no damage bonus is kinda made up for the fact that a Rokh can use higher damaging ammo at every range, other then point blank, ... can you fly a mega too ??? when yes, do you have gallente BS at the same LVL as Caldari BS ?? when you have a difference of one LVL, can you compare for me the dmg between mega and rokh at the same optimal range ?? what i want is only a calculation from the raw dps, thank you.
Gragnor Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:14:00 - [36] Originally by: Hida Kage Can someone explain to me why 250km range in Fleet engagements is so important? With the introduction of the new scanning system, Recon probe launchers, and warp to 0, can't you at 0 km from any enemy forces in under 20 seconds? Even just 1 probe launcher every 10th person would be more than enough in a fleet of 30 or 40. I mean, a single squad of 9 Blaster equiped Megathron's or Torpedo Ravens along with an interdictor would seem to put the hurt on any almost any sized purely ranged Rokh fleet. Heck, the guy doing the scanning doesn't even need to be on the grid or visible. So why is 250km range so important? Why? Your covert ops scans down the enemy fleet and warps in 100km away. YEEHAH. He/She yells in TS warp to me at 100km or even better, get's into position so they can warp into the enemy at 220km. The enemy fleet sees the Rokh's as they load on the grid. The enemy fleet commander yells out awarning and calls primary. The enemy locks, engages and SCREAMS in frustration as their uber-leet ultra-nerfed t2 ammo does minimal damage to the Rokhs. The Rokh pilots laugh and begin pinging away at the enemy fleet, chortling as the lagfest slows down the enemy fleet's escape. The end of the fight; the Rokh fleet is unscathed and laughing while the enemy fleet has suffered losses. The fact that you even consider a close range engagement for fleet work speaks of inexperience. It is incredibly hard to get a close range engagement and when you do, the lag is tremendous. In addition, your fleet needs to be set up for a close range engagement and PRAY the enemy doesn't have a dictor hidden in the hundred or so ships along with some kind of carrier support or you are dead. The Rokh's immense range means that it is the new cheap sniper. It outranges all other snipers with tech 1 gear, which is TOTALLY UNBALANCED. The Rokh will be nerfed, but given the Typhoon experience, I would not hold my breath waiting for CCP to admit they made a horrible mistake. As for racial balance, perhaps one day the game developers will admit they don't know what that means. Yet another Caldari I WIN ship.
Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:24:00 - [37] Yeah, the Rokh makes no sense in the current context. Its like CCP is saying "OK, we are nerfing long-range combat for everyone that went down that sp intensive path of sniper guns, since we made it so fleet warfare required them. If you're a Caldari though, we'll be giving you better range than anyone has ever had in this game and you don't need to train t2."
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Raste Yeah, the Rokh makes no sense in the current context. Its like CCP is saying "OK, we are nerfing long-range combat for everyone that went down that sp intensive path of sniper guns, since we made it so fleet warfare required them. If you're a Caldari though, we'll be giving you better range than anyone has ever had in this game and you don't need to train t2." Is it called irony that in the same patch that devs had mentioned reducing range they introduce a ship to outrange every other ship -- and it's Caldari? ---
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.06 14:49:00 - [39] is it really the Rokh where everybody's whining about? =s cause if nothing happened with the t2 ammo... would everybody still whine? well, some ppl will... "OMG OMG!! THEY ARE SHOOTING ME WITH IRON CHARGES!! 12DPS!! OVERPOWERED!! OMG!!" retards like that will always exist... yeah, it has great ranges... so what? t1 long range ammo doesn't hurt in t1 guns... what are the ranges of the other sniping ships? the new ranges i mean... i hope it's close to 200km... 196km optimal or something? cause that's what i get with my Eagle... <- LOOK a sniping CRUISER!! wow... that must be overpowered 2, don't you say? back to the real issue, that the Rokh may have huge ranges... but when i fly with Tempests, Sniperthrons and Geddon's... i won't be at my 235km optimal... or near my 249km max target range... no, i will be near their optimal range... they do have dmg bonusses on their ships... dmg with my t2 fitted Rokh won't be bad... and the ranges would be good... but i can simply be out damaged... lets look at the facts... lets compare Rokh vs Megathron... i'm not even gonna bother with the bonusses on ships or skills... and not with ranges... lets assume the Rokh and the Megathron are at the same range... Megathron t2 fitted... Rokh with the overpowered t1 fitted... (since the Megathron uses t2 sniping ammo with the range bonus, and the Rokh uses it's t1 ammo... range should be around the same when fitted correctly)... 425mm railgun I : 2.75x dmg mod, 9.56s ROF Iron Charge L : 12 Kinetic, 8 Thermal Rokh : 8 guns (2.75x12+2.75x8)/9.56x8=46 base dps 425mm railgun II : 3.3x dmg mod, 9.56s ROF Spike L : 16 Kinetic, 16 Thermal Megathron 7 guns (bonus not calculated) : 7 guns (3.3x16+3.3x16)/9.56x7=77 base dps now lets put these together... 46dps for the Rokh with 8 guns... and 77dps for the Megathron with just 7 guns, and not getting the dmg bonus on the Megathron in the calculation... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
Pedro Valesquez	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Gragnor Yet another Caldari I WIN ship. Umm, okay... right... wait a sec, let me go back through my PvP history... yep, it is infact true, that every time I have recieved a massive spanking, it has been from a Gallente ship. Would you care to show me another example of the Caldari "I WIN" ship, and then compare it to it's brother equivalents of the other races. (also, as a side note, I just think you should all stop whining about *******s problems, that only exist inside your own little world.)

Crellion Art of War Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:37:00 - [41] I agree with all the clueless people above. Take away the range bonus and add a rof bonus. Watch them cry HAXXXXXXXX!!!!!! Loller. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Hida Kage Caldari Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:54:00 - [42] Edited by: Hida Kage on 06/12/2006 15:54:05 Originally by: Gragnor Why? Your covert ops scans down the enemy fleet and warps in 100km away. YEEHAH. He/She yells in TS warp to me at 100km or even better, get's into position so they can warp into the enemy at 220km. The enemy fleet sees the Rokh's as they load on the grid. The enemy fleet commander yells out awarning and calls primary. The enemy locks, engages and SCREAMS in frustration as their uber-leet ultra-nerfed t2 ammo does minimal damage to the Rokhs. I don't understand why are you necessarily using a covert ops. Why can't the squad commander, in a Megathron, with 1 recon probe launcher, issue the warp squad to 0km squad command after doing a scan and analyzing? From what I understand, any ship can fit a recon probe launcher. I mean, with pirates scanning down mission runners in under a minute and warping to within a few km of them why are you warping 100km away? Why aren't you warping 5 km away? At such a distance, 425mm rail guns will be virtually useless due to tracking. Is it purely due to lag reasons this won't work? Originally by: Gragnor The Rokh pilots laugh and begin pinging away at the enemy fleet, chortling as the lagfest slows down the enemy fleet's escape. The end of the fight; the Rokh fleet is unscathed and laughing while the enemy fleet has suffered losses. The fact that you even consider a close range engagement for fleet work speaks of inexperience. It is incredibly hard to get a close range engagement and when you do, the lag is tremendous. In addition, your fleet needs to be set up for a close range engagement and PRAY the enemy doesn't have a dictor hidden in the hundred or so ships along with some kind of carrier support or you are dead. Oh, I freely admit that I'm completely inexperienced in fleet combat. Thats why I'm asking why the 250km is so important. Again, why is it so hard to get a close range engagement with the new scanning mechanics? Pirates can do it trivially, why can't fleets? Why do you need cov op ship to do it anymore? Why do you even need a ship on the grid? Can't you just analyze a scan and say warp to 0 km on this huge sig radius Rohk? And if you're fleet is mixing it up at point blank range with the Rokh fleet, won't any interdictor warp scramble the Rokh's as much as the close range fleet? Also, why is the carrier support so important to such a fight? In principle, can't both sides have access to fighters? Rokh's + Fighters at close range vs Megathron/Raven's + Fighters at close range, seems like the close range fleet would have the advantage? Now I suppose lag is reason not to do all this, but why is it affecting the close range fleet more than the Rokh fleet? Shouldn't both sides be having equal problems? Also, does it really differ whether you're at 250km or 5km, since you're all still on the same grid? Originally by: Gragnor The Rokh's immense range means that it is the new cheap sniper. It outranges all other snipers with tech 1 gear, which is TOTALLY UNBALANCED. Why is it totally unbalanced? Is the Eagle unbalanced againt cruisers? Is the Moa unbalanced against frigates? Or is it the nature of the fleet combat paradigm which makes it strong in your eyes? If the nature of fleet combat were to change, where maximum range engagements were not the only option, would you still consider the Rokh unbalanced? Originally by: Gragnor The Rokh will be nerfed, but given the Typhoon experience, I would not hold my breath waiting for CCP to admit they made a horrible mistake. As for racial balance, perhaps one day the game developers will admit they don't know what that means. Yet another Caldari I WIN ship. I don't see how they could elegantly nerf the Rokh. The Caldari turret bonus is range. Its designed to make Railguns be the hybrid weapon of choice for Caldari. Railguns also happen to be the best long range weapons in the game.
Jeanpierre Duvall Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.12.06 15:55:00 - [43] Well.. As it has been said so many times before. Suck it up. Adapt. "I have always done it that way" It's part of the game use your imagination FFS. Quit whining and play the game. Since that is what always have been said when other ppl claimed something was "unbalanced".. Everything in Eve is unbalanced. You just have to counter the balance.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.12.06 16:46:00 - [44] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 06/12/2006 17:07:26 Originally by: Jeanpierre Duvall Everything in Eve is unbalanced. You just have to counter the balance. Spoken like a true caldari. Oh, and if you think everyone was waiting your advice to adapt (i.e. train for the rokh as its the only realistic option), you are very wrong. I know a 50 mill SP player only flying one race up to capital ships until three months ago who trained everything needed to fly a rokh from now on. I don't know the whole picture and what was the point of introducing this ship as it is, but here's an assumption. A symptom of the broken t2 ammo was that people without the skill for t2 turrets were mostly useless. CCP decided to address the symptom and not the problem (as they did a few times despite many other very good balancing decisions) by making such range available for people without t2 guns. It's not bad per se, and actually rather good, because it gives those people the ability to participate in fleet warfare again. Regardless of the issues with the rokh so massively outranging anything else (i.e. the significance of the difference in range), the first problem is that there's little point skilling for any other t2 turret than t2 hybrids as it is not efficient skillpoints wise. They could have very well given the maelstrom and the apoc a "balanced" range bonus, allowing people without t2 turrets and without t1 hybrid turret skill the same option as hybrid users. Whereas "not everything should be available for every race" holds to some extent, fleet warfare for non-t2 turret users should also be available for lasers and projectiles users for the very reason t1 hybrid turret users are made worthwhile again. I believe CCP had the hope that giving a ship the ability to outrange everything else so much would make people fight closer, benefitting from their higher damage at closer range against fleets build for max range. This is very flawed. A very first reason is versatility: the tradeoff in damage is nowhere near the advantage of the extra range, allowing you to control a much wider area. The second reason is ECM: only the rokh can reliably sit outside the maximum effective range of all EW. The third reason is tacklers: the further you stay from the enemy fleet, the longer it takes for them to get the covert op in position or the inties to get to you. It's more than that but what I wrote sums it up already. EDIT: lol @ people suggesting to bring close range setups against a long range fleet. Even if you manage to drop in the middle of them, chances are you will hardly compete. Anyone who has seen platted, tanked battleships die in docking range and before locking them in a 3 SB t2 battleship knows that this is utterly inadequate. The only advantage of close range battleships, their tank, is completely negated by the effectiveness of focused fire. NB. In Rust We Trust
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.06 20:54:00 - [45] Well to get this thread back on track... This thread was about a "noob" char with noob skills using a T1 fitted rokh outranging a "uber" T2 high-SP char using another BS. Well I tried using the wonderful spreadsheet to see the difference in distances using some of the other ships fitted with T2 versus a T1 rokh. This rokh is however at lvl 5 so you might want to retract some of the distance to reflect a real "noob" char. different ranges Now, I have no idea how accurate this spreadsheet is, but I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. According to this spreadsheet the rokh will outdamage the other ship at 225-250 km, while the damage will be severely lower at all other ranges. I have yet to have tried a fleet battle where the distance is at those distances, while most if not all of the battles I've been in is between 100-200 km.
Penthus Mal devastation mining inc Hell Hounds	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:17:00 - [46] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Well to get this thread back on track... This thread was about a "noob" char with noob skills using a T1 fitted rokh outranging a "uber" T2 high-SP char using another BS. Well I tried using the wonderful spreadsheet to see the difference in distances using some of the other ships fitted with T2 versus a T1 rokh. This rokh is however at lvl 5 so you might want to retract some of the distance to reflect a real "noob" char. different ranges Now, I have no idea how accurate this spreadsheet is, but I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. According to this spreadsheet the rokh will outdamage the other ship at 225-250 km, while the damage will be severely lower at all other ranges. I have yet to have tried a fleet battle where the distance is at those distances, while most if not all of the battles I've been in is between 100-200 km. Unfortunately this does not show the different ammo types. All turret ammo follows the same theme Higher range = lower damage Lower range = higher damage The Rokh pilot has the option of swapping out to the lower range/higher damage ammo and still retain the desired optimal.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.06 21:48:00 - [47] Originally by: Penthus Mal Unfortunately this does not show the different ammo types. All turret ammo follows the same theme Higher range = lower damage Lower range = higher damage The Rokh pilot has the option of swapping out to the lower range/higher damage ammo and still retain the desired optimal. Just like all the others. For instance if the rokh pilot switched to antimatter his optimal would drop to 70km and the DOT would be the same as the maelstrom and the megathorn using the long range ammo. Only difference is that their optimal range would still be above 160km.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.12.06 23:52:00 - [48] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 07/12/2006 00:06:11 Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Now, I have no idea how accurate this spreadsheet is, but I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. According to this spreadsheet the rokh will outdamage the other ship at 225-250 km, while the damage will be severely lower at all other ranges. The spreadsheet should be accurate. Someone else is kindly updating it for a little while and I'm fully confident that he's doing this right. I'd comment by saying that you are using stock t1 guns, whereas you could very well use named turrets. A max skilled tempest with 3 tracking mods t2 and tremor hits at 150km optimal + 42km falloff, whereas a level 4 BS skill rokh hits at 227 km optimal with best named t1 guns, iron ammo, and 3 tracking mods t2. You could argue that it's fine that way, because the extra range isn't that much and you'd be using the best named guns. With level 5 bs skill the range difference is around 100km difference in optimal range. A tempest will at best use 40 km of falloff (its damage will suffer more than 50% damage reduction at that range, what the spreadsheet doesn't show as nobody figured out or at least made public the formula used to compute the decreasing hit quality due to falloff; only hit chance is factored). The extra 50-60 km over all the other BS with BS 5 is just too much though. And I am still amazed that this went through as a) Tux said he wanted to nerf the range though finally gave 25% extra range to one ship over all the others and b) what about newer players using projectiles and lasers ? NB. In Rust We Trust
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.07 01:59:00 - [49] Quote: And I am still amazed that this went through as a) Tux said he wanted to nerf the range though finally gave 25% extra range to one ship over all the others and b) what about newer players using projectiles and lasers ? When players have been pointing out why the bonus is broken, before even Revelations, and CCP still releases it then it's quite simple to piece together that CCP thinks the bonus is "balanced" (even though it's not). "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.07 02:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Tribunal Quote: And I am still amazed that this went through as a) Tux said he wanted to nerf the range though finally gave 25% extra range to one ship over all the others and b) what about newer players using projectiles and lasers ? When players have been pointing out why the bonus is broken, before even Revelations, and CCP still releases it then it's quite simple to piece together that CCP thinks the bonus is "balanced" (even though it's not). tbh, the only way they can fix it is giving all the t2 ammo the 100% range bonus back... this way you don't get the 10% bonus to optimal Range of Large Energy Weapons or something... (i bet the general Amarr pilot doesn't like this over the dmg or cap bonus)... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith

Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.07 03:02:00 - [51] Originally by: Sovereign533 Originally by: Tribunal Quote: And I am still amazed that this went through as a) Tux said he wanted to nerf the range though finally gave 25% extra range to one ship over all the others and b) what about newer players using projectiles and lasers ? When players have been pointing out why the bonus is broken, before even Revelations, and CCP still releases it then it's quite simple to piece together that CCP thinks the bonus is "balanced" (even though it's not). tbh, the only way they can fix it is giving all the t2 ammo the 100% range bonus back... this way you don't get the 10% bonus to optimal Range of Large Energy Weapons or something... (i bet the general Amarr pilot doesn't like this over the dmg or cap bonus)... The long ranged ammos going back to 100% is exactly what I would like to not happen. Tux himself claimed that he wanted to decrease the range of combat, but then introduces a ship that pushes the range issue to the extreme. I would love to see the max targeting range of ships decreased to 200km. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Frug Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.07 04:14:00 - [52] Sounds kind of like one of the major issues is that getting up close with high damage ships is impractical largely due to lag. Which will get some help Soon(tm). - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Rhazh Nathule	Posted - 2006.12.07 07:40:00 - [53] IMHO The rook was exactly what the Caldari needed they were supposed to be a Rail/Missile/ECM heavy race yet they had rail boats in every category except Battleship. Now this funny business about the whole 250km range wtfpwnbbq damage I don't see the problem. If I get sniped at that range then it's my own fault for MWD'ing straight at them or one of a hundred other retard manuevers. The bonus I didn't understand was the shield resist. A sniper ship shouldn't be able to tank well and hit from range. Actually on that note I think all sniper ammo is broke... who ever heard of having a long range ammo that has poor accuracy/tracking and a short range ammo that kills your velocity. I would think it should be the other way arround.
NocturnalDeath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.07 09:06:00 - [54] Edited by: NocturnalDeath on 07/12/2006 09:09:47 Unfortunately a LOT of people unfamiliar with FLEET battles have had a lot to say in this thread. Let me give the most probable scenario. I have a 30 man mixed fleet raiding the home system of an enemy, my covops jumps into the system and reports 10 Rokhs and 5 assorted ships sitting off the gate. My covops then maneuvers himself behind the Rokhs so my assorted fleet can jump towards them at their optimal. My fleet jumps in.. "Whats that destroyer doing rushing at the gate? ITS AN INTERDICTOR DROPPING A BUBBLE!" So my assorted fleet gets wtfbbq'd by the rokh's that we can't hit, AND we can't warp to our covops cuz we're in the bubbble. :/ 'Lead ammo does no damage', well in FLEET battles it doesn't matter, focused fire instapops ships. This is one of many scenarios that happens where warping to your optimal, when the enemy is already at theirs that makes your day go very bad. Like Tribunal, I just trained up for my Rokh as well :P
Lok Rone	Posted - 2006.12.07 13:06:00 - [55] Boys, you are stranged. As far as known, Caldari are descendants of American, Japaneese, so Caldari race must be overpowered to every other race. Not now, not even in future, Caldari never be comparable to every other race. They're always must overwhelm. Live with this fact.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:07:00 - [56] Originally by: Pinky Denmark Yeah - What about a +10% lock range and scan resolution pr BS lv? That will make a nice fleet ship but will not be so excellent for those running 350mm railguns and Blasters... Hell, no, the only justification for the Warp stabilizer nerf was Bad, Bad snipers with WCS and you want to create a ship to neutralize the warp stabilizers nerf?
ArchenTheGreat Caldari Yesodic Nomads Corp Triumvirate.	Posted - 2006.12.07 14:43:00 - [57] Originally by: Orin Fatch /signed I admit, give caldari pilots a nice fleet ship, but not one that can out range every other current one in game. Mmmm... I think Moa can outrange every other cruiser in game, Ferox can outrange every other battlecruiser in game. What is your problem exactly? Caldari is sniping race. They should have good sniper. None whines that Dominix has best drone bay and no other BS in game can match it. Why do you whine about Rokh? Megathron is NOT a sniping boat. It's a blaster boat. You are using ship in not intended way and you are complaining it's not as good as ship DESIGNED as sniper? Oh, no other than Rokh BS in game is designed as sniper. It's quite logical Rokh is a best sniper ingame than.
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.07 15:26:00 - [58] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Mmmm... I think Moa can outrange every other cruiser in game, Ferox can outrange every other battlecruiser in game. What is your problem exactly? Caldari is sniping race. They should have good sniper. None whines that Dominix has best drone bay and no other BS in game can match it. Why do you whine about Rokh? Megathron is NOT a sniping boat. It's a blaster boat. You are using ship in not intended way and you are complaining it's not as good as ship DESIGNED as sniper? Oh, no other than Rokh BS in game is designed as sniper. It's quite logical Rokh is a best sniper ingame than. Thx.!! Finally someone able to express what I've been trying to say in this thread. The rokh follows the pattern for caldari turret ships. which is having range, but poor damage output. Perhaps what all the other races meant to ask is, that the max target range is reduced from the 250 to where their optimal is, so that their high power weapons can match the rokh in range but severly outdamage it. Ofcourse all the caldari turret ship would then have their optimal bonus changed into a damage bonus and all the races would have close to similar ships... Weeee \o/
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.12.07 17:48:00 - [59] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 07/12/2006 18:05:38 Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Perhaps what all the other races meant to ask is, that the max target range is reduced from the 250 to where their optimal is, so that their high power weapons can match the rokh in range but severly outdamage it. Ofcourse all the caldari turret ship would then have their optimal bonus changed into a damage bonus and all the races would have close to similar ships... Weeee \o/ What you fail to understand is that it is going to end up like that anyway, with everyone in rokhs. Moreover, your idea that the rokh supposedly follows the same pattern as the other caldari sniping ships is wrong. It simply does not trade enough damage for the range it gets. Also, sniping frigates, destroyers and (battle/assault)cruisers can be outranged (or at least matched in range) by something smaller than a capital ship, which isn't the case of the rokh. I don't get why some of you are so stubborn to keep defending this ship as it is as, a) it's going to be nerfed anyway and b) it's not going to provide you with a tactical advantage in the medium or long term as no matter if people all fly rokhs, or not, you won't outrange anyone. NB. In Rust We Trust
NocturnalDeath Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.07 18:58:00 - [60] Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Orin Fatch /signed I admit, give caldari pilots a nice fleet ship, but not one that can out range every other current one in game. Mmmm... I think Moa can outrange every other cruiser in game, Ferox can outrange every other battlecruiser in game. What is your problem exactly? Caldari is sniping race. They should have good sniper. None whines that Dominix has best drone bay and no other BS in game can match it. Why do you whine about Rokh? Megathron is NOT a sniping boat. It's a blaster boat. You are using ship in not intended way and you are complaining it's not as good as ship DESIGNED as sniper? Oh, no other than Rokh BS in game is designed as sniper. It's quite logical Rokh is a best sniper ingame than. "Caldari is sniping race" oh and Caldari is ECM race Caldari is Missle boat race (used to mean more) Caldari is shield tanking race Gallente get Drones... The most bugged weapon system there ever was. Gallente get Blasters... Sweet if I land on top of the guy I might actually win! Minimatar get Alpha strike... oh wait not anymore, T2 ammo nerf Minimatar get to train for dual weapon systems... Missiles and projectiles Minimatar get to train for shield AND armor tanking.. some ships do one, some the other Amarr get to train Caldari...

Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.12.07 19:17:00 - [61] Maybe Rokh will be nerfed some way, but still it will be ship designed for long range combat so it will still bow up sniping mega to pieces at long range... So you still will have reason for whining ... And guys dont forget about speed, mass, sig radius, capacitor, armor vs shield tanking ... BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.07 20:00:00 - [62] Edited by: Sovereign533 on 07/12/2006 20:01:25 Originally by: NocturnalDeath Originally by: ArchenTheGreat Originally by: Orin Fatch /signed I admit, give caldari pilots a nice fleet ship, but not one that can out range every other current one in game. Mmmm... I think Moa can outrange every other cruiser in game, Ferox can outrange every other battlecruiser in game. What is your problem exactly? Caldari is sniping race. They should have good sniper. None whines that Dominix has best drone bay and no other BS in game can match it. Why do you whine about Rokh? Megathron is NOT a sniping boat. It's a blaster boat. You are using ship in not intended way and you are complaining it's not as good as ship DESIGNED as sniper? Oh, no other than Rokh BS in game is designed as sniper. It's quite logical Rokh is a best sniper ingame than. "Caldari is sniping race" oh and Caldari is ECM race Caldari is Missle boat race (used to mean more) Caldari is shield tanking race Gallente get Drones... The most bugged weapon system there ever was. Gallente get Blasters... Sweet if I land on top of the guy I might actually win! Minimatar get Alpha strike... oh wait not anymore, T2 ammo nerf Minimatar get to train for dual weapon systems... Missiles and projectiles Minimatar get to train for shield AND armor tanking.. some ships do one, some the other Amarr get to train Caldari... plz, all stop whining about the Rokh... it isn't overpowered... it has crp dps... yeah, it has a great damage... and if you cannot hit it... you cannot kill it... but this goes for all sniping ships? if you whine about the Rokh, why don't you whine about the Eagle? cruiser with 196km optimal... CRUISER!!! a cruiser outranging a battleship... it isn't the problem of the ships... the t2 ammo nerf is a mistake... well, the damage reduction... uhm... maybe... range reduction for sniping ammo... <- MISTAKE... and don't you think that a ship specialised in something should be better at that then any other ship? Originally by:* Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.08 03:49:00 - [63] You don't need great DPS when you outrange the entire enemy fleet and have enough ships to kill another BS in 1-2 group volleys. Rokh is quite overpowered. The thing that bugs alot of people, however, is that the Caldari (already quite powerful in many respects) got a new role with their t3 BS and no other races did. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.12.08 09:56:00 - [64] Originally by: Baun You don't need great DPS when you outrange the entire enemy fleet and have enough ships to kill another BS in 1-2 group volleys. Rokh is quite overpowered. The thing that bugs alot of people, however, is that the Caldari (already quite powerful in many respects) got a new role with their t3 BS and no other races did. I can understand that people are angry or bugged that they didn't get some new shiny ship to fill a specefic role, but I really don't understand why they want to nerf the rokh, it's good at distances but try engaging below 150km and this ship will get severly outdamaged. And it is unable to get even close to the damage the others can dish out at close range. The one I think looks overpowered is the abaddon since it's so godly powerful at ranges up to 200km using aurora or extremely powerful closer using gleam. I just hope that people would stop being so biased and thinking that ALL fighting in eve is at 200-250 km exactly, which is the only range the Rokh can outdamage anything.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.12.08 18:18:00 - [65] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 08/12/2006 18:27:32 Originally by: Baun The thing that bugs alot of people, however, is that the Caldari (already quite powerful in many respects) got a new role with their t3 BS and no other races did. Yet some people seem to argue that the rokh is the only tier 3 battleship not treading on the role of another ship, whereas it's making all of the formerly viable long range BS redundant in this role. Not to mention the scorp being relegated to skirmishes due to the range limitations of EW, de facto useless against a fleet of rokh (and this alone is a good enough advantage to get all your pilots in such ships). Originally by: Lucian Corvinus I just hope that people would stop being so biased and thinking that ALL fleet combats in eve won't happen at 200-250 km exactly, which is the only viable range you need to reach in fleet combat once a decent share of the playerbase involved in such combats has got access to a Rokh. There, fixed it for you Seriously, you just can't seem to decide whether it's not overpowered or rightly overpowered. And I bet I can fly the ship better than you already, it's not like I'm jealous or something. NB. In Rust We Trust
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.12.08 20:42:00 - [66] OMG Galente o Matar BS can fly 2000-4000m per second and nobody is whining about it. And it almost double of maximum speed witch will ever caldari BS fly. BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:10:00 - [67] Originally by: Aki Yamato OMG Galente o Matar BS can fly 2000-4000m per second and nobody is whining about it. And it almost double of maximum speed witch will ever caldari BS fly. I almost shot ice tea from my nose. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Aki Yamato	Posted - 2006.12.08 22:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Tribunal Originally by: Aki Yamato OMG Galente o Matar BS can fly 2000-4000m per second and nobody is whining about it. And it almost double of maximum speed witch will ever caldari BS fly. I almost shot ice tea from my nose. You are a whale ? And dont tell me you never heard about interceptor battleship till now ... BIG GUN BIG FUTURE
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.09 01:58:00 - [69] Originally by: Aki Yamato Originally by: Tribunal Originally by: Aki Yamato OMG Galente o Matar BS can fly 2000-4000m per second and nobody is whining about it. And it almost double of maximum speed witch will ever caldari BS fly. I almost shot ice tea from my nose. You are a whale ? And dont tell me you never heard about interceptor battleship till now ... Mach, nanophoon, i bet the Gallente also have one (or 2)... not even my AF can keep up with them... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
Jap theBlind Minmatar The Wanderers	Posted - 2006.12.09 03:17:00 - [70] Originally by: NocturnalDeath I have a 30 man mixed fleet raiding the home system of an enemy, my covops jumps into the system and reports 10 Rokhs and 5 assorted ships sitting off the gate. My covops then maneuvers himself behind the Rokhs so my assorted fleet can jump towards them at their optimal. My fleet jumps in.. "Whats that destroyer doing rushing at the gate? ITS AN INTERDICTOR DROPPING A BUBBLE!" So my assorted fleet gets wtfbbq'd by the rokh's that we can't hit, AND we can't warp to our covops cuz we're in the bubbble. :/ This argument is so silly I had to read it twice to see if it was not a joke Can you explain how a fleet of Rokhs jumping into an enemy fleet with dictor can reach their optimal while the pathetic Amarr, Gallente and Matari ships tear them apart doing way more damage than any Rokh pilot could ever dream of? Or are you suggesting Caldari ships are a camper's wet dream? If so, I'll agree with you that the Rokh needs to lose it's optimal bonus for a damage bonus (Caldari used to have a rail damage bonus on their BS, btw...). But hey, that would go against the 'range' philosphy of Caldari and would make the Rokh another mega (without the tracking bonus, which makes difference the shield bonus dosn't compensate, not even mentioning the drone bay). If, ever, we see Rokh fleets, it won't be much different than when Caldari were training Amarr BS, when the megapulses were ruling the world. Then the nerf will come and another cycle of nerfs/boosts will begin.

Tribunal FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.12.09 05:24:00 - [71] Originally by: Sovereign533 Originally by: Aki Yamato Originally by: Tribunal Originally by: Aki Yamato OMG Galente o Matar BS can fly 2000-4000m per second and nobody is whining about it. And it almost double of maximum speed witch will ever caldari BS fly. I almost shot ice tea from my nose. You are a whale ? And dont tell me you never heard about interceptor battleship till now ... Mach, nanophoon, i bet the Gallente also have one (or 2)... not even my AF can keep up with them... Yes, because these are effective fleet ships . I can make a Raven go ~2500 m/s with full nanos and a micro warpdrive tech 2, but who the hell cares? There is a reason you do not see fleets of nano-X battleships flying around, I will leave you on your own to figure out why. "We can't all be heroes, because somebody has to sit on the curb and applaud when they go by." - Will Rogers
Commander Stringer Caldari InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:15:00 - [72] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus I don't really know what this is about. Are you comparing this ship with the megathrons range?? Afaik caldari have always been about range, and that is why they don't have a single high damage uber closerange weapon. Atleast thats what I hear from every gallente blaster ship user, "caldari has range and lower damage, gallente have closerange and uberwtfbbq damage". Agreed, about time Caldari had a range bird when before hand we were getting our asses handed to us by T2 Howie fitted tempests. If u get up close on a Rohk its dead, got my ass handed to me several times by gallente brutix class wtfbbqpwnedmasterblaster command ship thingies. Get a nos on a rohk and its tank dies but i did have an interesting experience on SiSi with a guy fitting 4 T2 heavy nos and 3 blasters to a rohk tanking it heavily then pwning mine in no time at all. Or did I miss the point ........ 'Blow your own trumpet 'cuz no other fecker is going to do it for you'
AKULA UrQuan Caldari STK Scientific Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.12.09 12:58:00 - [73] So people are figureing out out DPS isn't the end-all-be-all now? Or did someone run into a few AXE nubs flying Rokhs? As things stand now the Rokh is the only fleet BS that can both have an optimal well beyond 200km and be fitted in such a way that it can survive a Avatar's DD blast before touching rigs. Quite sexy. Originally by: Wrangler Win ME is more a some sort of virus than a OS..
Aramis Wyler Caldari The Praxis Initiative Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:14:00 - [74] Edited by: Aramis Wyler on 12/12/2006 18:14:42 Originally by: Jap theBlind Originally by: NocturnalDeath I have a 30 man mixed fleet raiding the home system of an enemy, my covops jumps into the system and reports 10 Rokhs and 5 assorted ships sitting off the gate. My covops then maneuvers himself behind the Rokhs so my assorted fleet can jump towards them at their optimal. My fleet jumps in.. This argument is so silly I had to read it twice to see if it was not a joke Can you explain how a fleet of Rokhs jumping into an enemy fleet with dictor can reach their optimal while the pathetic Amarr, Gallente and Matari ships tear them apart doing way more damage than any Rokh pilot could ever dream of? It's a shame you didn't read it a third time... some of it might have actually sunken in. He clearly specified his group jumping into a group of pre-positioned rokhs defending their own home system.
B00merang	Posted - 2006.12.12 18:59:00 - [75] I'm gallente with kick ass rail skills. This is no problem for me. In about 14 days I got Caldari BS V, because I started training Caldari ships when I say the insane imballance here. Give me 1 reason not to train Caldari BS when they got the best rail ship out there and I already got tons of rail skills. Also, like 75% of the Caldari pilots I know has dropped missile training and jumped on the rail skills. Probably because the Rohk is a useless ship. Now, what am I going to do with that crap load of drone-skills which used to be a threat in any engagement
Ciara Daag	Posted - 2006.12.13 01:38:00 - [76] Originally by: Morris Falter This is a ridiculous thing to have in the game. Outranging T2 high-SP pilots with T1 guns and nubie characters is leaving a number of people clueless as to what CCP are thinking with this item in game. What is the reason for having this? I don't see how the game benefits, and can see a lot of ways it detracts. To those who say, range is unimportant, "why cant you have theoretical Covops warp you in close range", "your tactics are useless", "its dps is low", "why dont you just train caldari" and all the other gloating from the k3w1 1n3z - get a clue. Fleet battles are a dirty business. Asking your enemy to sit still while you get in position during skirmishes does not ever happen. If you have already spent months on training BS5, Large Specialisations 5 etc etc retraining is a joke. This penalises high-SP characters who have to use expensive and hard to find mods to achieve less, based on a change we knew nothing about when starting on a racial specialisation. Thanks guys. I can understand what CCP were thinking with reducing the T2 ammo effects. T2 battleships are inbound - the changes in this context are clear. However - rokhs are 100% unbalanced, and effectively laugh at people who have trained hard on tactics, skillpoints and technique to make a difference. So now that I have your attention, what can be done? I have no idea. I'm still a bit stunned that this gigantic fubar made it past the reality check. I'm a fan of the other changes - and congrats to CCP for the smooth deployment. I do like the game, honestly.. but, guys, what the hell... Ever fit out a sniping scorp with cruise missiles? I dont see a problem with a rohk.
Tasith	Posted - 2006.12.14 18:49:00 - [77] I am getting fed up witrh idiot complaining it either OMG caldari suck or OMG caldari PWN ffs STOP MOANING LIKE BABIES the rokh is a sniper its get at long range but absolouyte rubish with rails ast close range - the whole point in this games it not to complain till everything suti your style of fighting but to adapt why not use a group of stealth cruisers gte close to tghe rokh and pwn it
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:23:00 - [78] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/12/2006 21:24:40 Edit: nevermind. NB. In Rust We Trust
Dixon Caldari Hells Donkeys	Posted - 2006.12.14 21:49:00 - [79] Edited by: Dixon on 14/12/2006 21:49:12 Originally by: DriveCrash t2 fitted mega with loads of skills, 150km to do some damage. t1 fitted rokh with ** skills, 200km doing wtf damage. I got sniped at 240km like i was getting hit by a blaster boat. Why? because the $&# had lead loaded. I asked him about it.. He said "anything over lead puts my optimal further than i can target due to 250km target cap" .. nice. why dont we just delete all non-caldari flying pilots now and get it over with? To the devs: Please stop playing caldari. Well one of you is lying. A maxed out rokh pilot using 3 tracking computers and lead charges isn't going to shoot much farther than 160km, and even then it does much less damage than a megathron. A maxed out megathron's optimal range is around 185km (w/spike and 3 tracking comps). A rokh will out-range a mega (w/spike) with tungsten charges but will be dealing less than 250dps, hardly "like getting hit by a blaster boat". But aside from that I think the rokh needs to be looked at. But not because of the range, I couldn't care less about that. It has too many damn launchers, making it a very effective nos/tanking/missile-boat... a solo-pwnmobile. - - - - - - Originally by:** Ath Amon as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced...
The Armin Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2006.12.14 22:39:00 - [80] 1 Rokh doesn't matter much, it's when you get 10 of em doing hit and runs it starts getting annoying. Warp in at cov op, shoot two bs, warp out Warp in at cov op, shoot two more bs, warp out blabla can't u see that the only effective counter to a rokh is having more rokhs ? or u need to dampen em to hell and back wich i fear we'll see a lot more of :(

Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2006.12.14 23:23:00 - [81] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 14/12/2006 23:24:01 Originally by: The Armin or u need to dampen em to hell and back wich i fear we'll see a lot more of :( Damps, as any other EW for that matter, do not work in any practical way at past 200-220km. Arbitrator/Pilgrim/Curse/Celestis/Lachesis/Arazu do not have any damp/tracking disruptor range bonus, and even specialized ships with ECM range bonuses do not have an high enough range to be reliable counters. NB. In Rust We Trust
Solant Minmatar C A P S U L E Edge of Sanity	Posted - 2006.12.15 03:40:00 - [82] Morris: Could you cry some more? Or do you forget the mainstay of this entire game- evolve or die.
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.15 10:01:00 - [83] Originally by: Solant Morris: Could you cry some more? Or do you forget the mainstay of this entire game- evolve or die. here, take a cookie... relax... and tell us something more constructive ^_^ Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2006.12.15 11:02:00 - [84] It is inline with caldari politics on range, but a little to much range was implemented.. i think that max range or their normal t2 fitted rokh should be maximum range that lets say megathron could achieve with maxed up skills and best t2/officier fittings.. they just gave caldari a best fleet ship, while they already have best PVE ship (raven and drake). I am all gallente, but i started to train caldari BS, why waste those trained points in large railguns spec if i can use them better? in fleets dmg is not so important then staying alive, range is best weapon for staying alive..
Sarf	Posted - 2006.12.15 18:01:00 - [85] so are you saying a rohk with T2 weapons and ammo is less powerfull than a rohk with T1 weapons and ammo, don't see how that is possible..
Asariasha Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.12.16 03:10:00 - [86] It's still funny to read the myth of only-Rokh fleets ^^ 1vs1: Rokh will outrange other ships, just like a Merlin, Moa, Eagle, Ferox will do within it's ship class while the opponent will always be able to warp out due to Rokhs low alpha Rokh will be outdamaged when it comes to close-mid ranged fights. In close-ranged combat the Rokh won't even be able to warp out due to warpjamming while on medium-ranged fight it might warp out. ----> well balanced FleetBattles: If there was a Rokh-only fleet it would be limited to only extreme longrange combat meaning the fleet has to warp every few minutes to another spot for not to be caught by a covert which delivers a warp-in. Also the dmg on extreme long range will be low so that attacked ships might be repaired by logistic drones + remote reppers until you reach a critical amount of Rokhs shooting on one target. Because currently there are NO Rokh-only fleets and the fact that an Amarr/Minmatar skilled pilot wont train up Hybrid + Railgun skills/specs that fast, Rokh pilots WILL HAVE to align to the majority of their fleet flying in Apoc, Geddon, Tempest, Megathron. Complaining about the Rokhs opti-range bonus would be like complaining about other races dmg bonus or the Drone bonus on Domis. Maybe some of you guys should just take a look onto the whole. Greets Asa
Doppler Shift	Posted - 2006.12.16 04:47:00 - [87] OH FFS!!! What did you expect??? Caldari is the RANGE RACE... They are the RAILGUNS race. They are SUPPOSED to have the BEST range in the game. Or did you want GALLENTE the Blaster masters to have the best range? They Are Supposed To Outrange Everybody And Outrun Nobody. What is the point of this thread??? Cry me a river. This ship should have been built earlier... Nerf? Sure, whatever... It should still be the absolutely best ranged platform because Caldari Are Snipers. All Their Railgun Ships Are The Best Ranged In Their Category. Spelling it slowly so that yo can understand. So, YES it is THE BEST FLEETSHIP. By far. It is called a ROLE. See? such an easy word. And for all those funny guys that first mention ECM and then Fleets. What should we say then about sensor dampeners and fleet battles? That EACH DAMPENER FITTED IS A BATTLESHIP OUT OF THE PICTURE OMG WTF NERFNERF DAMPNERZZZ PLZZ???? Roles. It is just some people are so preoccupied whining that cannot see their own strengths. Sad. Of course, it just makes for easy kills for those that do. Kind of reminds me of people crying about minmatar being the worst while the Vaga is the most sought-out ship in the game and Amarr are training autocannons. Sadder... Get over it
Rezerwowy Pies Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:32:00 - [88] Caldari always have best thing, and future will be the same :]
Kotori Gallente Sacred Templars DeStInY.	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:46:00 - [89] Dont worry, someday it will go along the same route as my poor poor typhoon and lose its bonus for something else :(. I know not many people agree with me, but i miss my 10% optimal on my typhoon :(. I loved being able to hit at well over locking range with tremor :(. Poor thing ..........
TheFirstInquisitor	Posted - 2006.12.16 11:59:00 - [90] /sighned The Caldari do need a railship BS, but this is too far. Im glad I can fly the thing and beat those with higher SP, but wheres the fun in that? Perhaps if they give it a -20% static special bonus and +10 tracking speed or something as a static bonus?

Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.16 16:28:00 - [91] question: Normal fleet engagement range is what? Rokh's optimal range/falloff at level five is what? Isn't the warp to set at 150km?
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2006.12.16 16:57:00 - [92] Originally by: Vincent Almasy question: Normal fleet engagement range is what? Rokh's optimal range/falloff at level five is what? Isn't the warp to set at 150km? Question: Pick a number between 0 and 100. The winner of the contest is the one who guesses the number equal to 2/3 of the average number other people will answer. What would you answer ? NB. In Rust We Trust
ElweSingollo Starlancers	Posted - 2006.12.16 23:18:00 - [93] My skill while not maxed yet are fairly high for Amarr Amarr b/ship 4 (training to 5) Large Beam Spec 4 fairly decent gunnery skills... Take an Apoc fit sniping setup (no tank 2 x 1600 plates) Optimal with Tach 2's and Aurora = 160k with about 20/25k fall off I trained Caldari a while back for npc'ing purposes have Caldari B/ship at lvl 3 no large rails skill (trained it to lvl 1 on Test to see what Rokh is like). Optimal with Named 425mm's and range ammo approx 215/220 well outside the falloff of even my specialisation in long range Amarr weapons and that is with absolutely crap skills....... yes I may Out damage a Rohk at 160k but why would any Rohk pilot bother staying near me when he can get an optimal about 60k further away? I could train the Rohk and train Large Hybrids but I will not I am Amarr specced now for larger ships and I aint going to change at this stage in my game....
Leneerra Minmatar Trinity Nova	Posted - 2006.12.17 22:51:00 - [94] Only the caldari would have been complaining if it could fit only 5 guns, wich would have been in line with the moa/eagle
Sexorella hotz Beasts of Burden	Posted - 2006.12.18 01:30:00 - [95] Well, I guess the one thing I will say to this topic, based on the fact that I fly covops, if an enemy fleet comes in at 250, it is a very trivial matter to drop a probe and get a good warp to point on them. Once you get in their range with tacklers, tracking disruptors and the like, they're nullified. Total time is about 40 seconds, which albeit is a long time for them to have an advantage but once you get on top of them they're screwed, dead, and useless. And caldari ships have always been plagued with being slow and poorly agile, in otherwords not that hard to catch. Just need a few folks to be on their toes. All that said I will make one more point. A blasterthron is tactically, fleet not considered, a very powerful thing. You don't really need help getting setup at the appropriate range, if you aren't in range you have the option of getting away, basically the blasterthron can dictate the playing field. The Rokh, on the otherhand, will require the perfect setup, help getting sniping location and so forth, and once something gets to close, the DPS goes to ****, and it can be tackled. In otherwords, blasterthron wants you close, you're going to be dealing wiht a lot of DPS to try and pin it down. The rokh, on the other hand, screams tackle me, I can't hit you at close range! So if I'm flying solo, give me a blasterthron, the rokh is just a wee bit too...unversatile. Too slow to realistically fit as a blaster boat, and most effective at absurd ranges. As for fleet fights, CCP is doing everything it can to break the blobs, and with titans becoming somewhat more prominant, setting up on a gate or a station is slowly becoming less viable, the existance of titans I expect will start breaking the blobs, making fleet flights less important.
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2006.12.18 02:11:00 - [96] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/12/2006 02:13:39 Originally by: Sexorella hotz Well, I guess the one thing I will say to this topic, based on the fact that I fly covops, if an enemy fleet comes in at 250, it is a very trivial matter to drop a probe and get a good warp to point on them. Once you get in their range with tacklers, tracking disruptors and the like, they're nullified. Total time is about 40 seconds, which albeit is a long time for them to have an advantage but once you get on top of them they're screwed, dead, and useless. Whether it's true or not (i think that it's not a realistic scenario but it's irrelevant) you aren't pointing out any particular disadvantage of the rokh. Originally by: Sexorella hotz And caldari ships have always been plagued with being slow and poorly agile, in otherwords not that hard to catch. Just need a few folks to be on their toes. That's hardly an excuse, the fleet ships are aligned to warp out. The poor speed has no bearing and the poor agility isn't that bad, i didn't notice any difference on SISI between the rokh and maelstrom. I suppose it's similar on TQ but there's no way I'll buy a maelstrom... Originally by: Sexorella hotz All that said I will make one more point. A blasterthron is tactically, fleet not considered, a very powerful thing. You don't really need help getting setup at the appropriate range, if you aren't in range you have the option of getting away, basically the blasterthron can dictate the playing field. The Rokh, on the otherhand, will require the perfect setup, help getting sniping location and so forth, and once something gets to close, the DPS goes to **, and it can be tackled. In otherwords, blasterthron wants you close, you're going to be dealing wiht a lot of DPS to try and pin it down. The rokh, on the other hand, screams tackle me, I can't hit you at close range! A 425mm railgun on a rokh tracks better than a 1400mm artillery on a tempest/maelstrom (when you consider nominal tracking, and it's even better given the higher range). Originally by:** Sexorella hotz So if I'm flying solo, give me a blasterthron, the rokh is just a wee bit too...unversatile. Too slow to realistically fit as a blaster boat, and most effective at absurd ranges. As for fleet fights, CCP is doing everything it can to break the blobs, and with titans becoming somewhat more prominant, setting up on a gate or a station is slowly becoming less viable, the existance of titans I expect will start breaking the blobs, making fleet flights less important. It's probably one the most versatile battleships when it comes to fitting it (long range/short-mid range blaster setup/nos torpedo boat...) and when it comes to flying it with a given setup. As for the titan argument, it's very unrelated and doesn't explain why the rokh is making other fleet setup battleships redundant. ... 3 weeks until I can reach 250km, I can't wait . NB. In Rust We Trust
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.18 04:06:00 - [97] What's the point in range past 150km, if your past 150km they can warp to you and be at 0-5km which your guns then can't shoot them
Wat0721 GalacTECH Unlimited	Posted - 2006.12.18 06:15:00 - [98] Originally by: Vincent Almasy What's the point in range past 150km, if your past 150km they can warp to you and be at 0-5km which your guns then can't shoot them Hm... Nope. ---
Frug Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.18 07:14:00 - [99] I dunno why people who obviously don't understand the argument and have never been in giant fleet battles post in this topic. I haven't, but I can see why people who do lots of big fleet battles have a problem with the Rokh. They have a point. Popping shuttles? Nobody was talking about popping shuttles. Why god, why do you make these posts? - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.18 11:26:00 - [100] Rokh won't be nerfed... it has the crappiest damage of all ships... the only thing it has is the shield resists (and the Abaddon has the armour resists), and the incredible range (Caldari rail bonus on all it's rail ships)... it's completely inline with the rest... less damage for more range... all the Caldari railboats have the mixed setups like the Moa/Eagle's 4/2 high slot layout... but the Rokh doesn't need that because it doesn't do more damage then other battleships as it is... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith

Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.18 16:26:00 - [101] Originally by: Wat0721 Originally by: Vincent Almasy What's the point in range past 150km, if your past 150km they can warp to you and be at 0-5km which your guns then can't shoot them Hm... Nope. Nope what?
Frug Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.18 21:13:00 - [102] Nope you have no idea what the point of the argument is because you still can't grasp the notion of giant fleet battles. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Vor	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:31:00 - [103] As a veteran of all major conflicts in EVE in the last 2.5 years, and as a ôsolder for hireö I will give you a description of one very good strategy that is often used by RED pilots when they face superior numbers of opponents. To counter this battle tactic is very difficult, and only possible if RED pilots make a mistake or out battle fleet has much more long range snipers. The purpose of this description is to put you in the seat, and give you at least slight understanding of the power and problem that Rokh will bring to the major battle fields. Tempest for all times were the best medium and long range snipers, capable of slicing through armor do to its luck of EXP resistance. The advantage of Tempests also its ability to do the most damage in a single activation of guns, while the other ships will require 2 activation. (DM per second can be some what equal still in the end). This advantage give Tempests in a group an ability to jump in, do 1 activation and jump out, with out the need to remain for 10 seconds for reload, while most other BS to do the same damage will need to remain for 2-3 activations, that about 15 seconds. In Major fleet battles a few seconds play difference between your pod or an enemy pod, as focus is the key!! When engaging RED with superior numbers on our side, we often encountered this tactic, which quiet frankly gave us pain in the ass and broth many losses. Our scout reports that REDÆs have 20 people in system, we with out blob of over 80 jump in the system, what else to do, we need to go forward. We end up in the bubble from interdictor. Fast ships move out, slower BS crawl from the bubble, then on top of us we have a group of 5 tempests at about 160km, 1st activation, we lost 1 BS, primary is relayed we try to focus, as son as we lock RED ship, he warps out, we try to lock second, he warps out, second activation by RED pilots, our BS on half armor, and they warp out. Our inters try to approach them, but actually rarely successful, it only serves to force them to warp out. As soon as 1st group of RED tempest get out, a second group from opposite side, underneath us appears, and they pick off from our damaged BS. This warping in and out continues with numerous groups of RED snipers coming in and out. For a duration of some 20-30 seconds we loose 5 BS out of 32, to the 11 tempests and 2 Apoks from RED. Their losses 0. To those that will say, well we are just crappy pilots, I will say no, not true. It is simply the Tempests were properly used by RED to maximize their potential. They never made a turn back to speed up, they had cover-ups positioned and books made in such a way that they jump out from battle in the same direction in which their nose faces when they enter battle. Thus no time is wasted for turns. Sure these pilots are not your average, they are veterans, buffed up and skills maxed out. Yet, CCP provided Rokh, and soon it will be used the same way, overshooting Tempest by some ~80km, thus fighting effectively on distances of 200-260km. The argument that Rokh slow to turn, is useless, as added range gives them more time, and if covert ups are used they will have no need to turn around to speed up. The argument that Rokh deals small amount of damage, some one said that they throw ôpaper bulletsö is also useless, because these ôpaper bulletsö form 4 Rokh will still crash your tank. Rokh has 8 guns while most tempest have 6. Rokh damage per second is only about 5-15% less then that of a Tempest. Tempests damaging has been reduced greatly by almost all pilots in Fleet engagements using EXP hardener for armor on their BSÆs. Against the Rokh you will need to use 2 hardeners, thus 2 low slots. With out kinetic and thermal hardeners Rokh is inflicting the same and sometimes even more DM then tempest on armor. However it overshoots Tempest by ~80km. The disbalancing nature of Rokh is that other races can not compete effectively at those ranges.
Vor	Posted - 2006.12.18 22:32:00 - [104] Edited by: Vor on 18/12/2006 22:41:05 In the times of Tire 1 and Tire 2 BS, Tempest, Megas, Apoks and cruse Ravens were able to shoot at each other at about equal sniping ranges. Where tempest superseded them by a little bit but lost much in tanking, while raven could not deal damage right away do to its missals, it was granted ability to tank well, as to stay longer on battle field. Where Megas dealt much less damage at sniping but compensated it by good armor tanking, and Apoks were capable of good damage and good tank but lacked the cap to do both at the same time. Rokh overshoots all Tire 1 and Tire 2 BS, and all other Tire 3 BS. It is the superior sniper with great ability to tank on shield or use of electronics. While Hyperion and Megatrons cant even compete, shortly pout this race got fu__ ed over big time. No one used blaster megas and no one will use Hyperions in fleet battle, because their pilots die in lag, and too close for hell sh loud of electronics, nocing, drones and so on. They immediately became primary for everything that is smaller then BS. In small gangs of 10-15 People that gate camp they are effective but other wise no. What is the solution to this problem? Well I donÆt care, I have 4 accs maxed out for each race. And at lvl 5 Rokh, with maxed out gunnery and rails, with implants it rules so much that it even scares the ** out of me. Personally Rokh is unfair to other races, especially to gallenty, however It does not mean I will not use it to smack the life out of others.
Sovereign533 Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.12.19 07:39:00 - [105] nice story, good read... but your wrong... first of al, 250km is the max target range... it isn't possible ingame to get over that range... (at least, this is what i heard, and with 2 sebo 2's i get a max target range on the rokh of 249km)... second of all, the Tempest is still a very good ship... still does a lot of damage... but that ship being nerfed has nothing to do with the Rokh... and do you really think that alliances like RA and -A- (i say this from experience) will start to use the Rokh? if you do, then your wrong... you already said that they are veterans with maxed out skills... so why would they want to retrain everything to go for some Caldari ship that does less damage anyway... their tactic is to do as much damage in the shortest amount of time... Originally by: Sovereign533 Time will tell, sooner or later, time will tell... Second sig removed, only 1 signature graphic please - Xorus ^_^WOOHOO!!! my Sig finally got nerfed... And now its been sigjacked, yarrrr!!! - Petwraith
Frug Caldari	Posted - 2006.12.19 17:09:00 - [106] Quote: First of al, 250km is the max target range... Talk about bringing up pointless nit-picky details. He was off by 10km, so his whole argument must be wrong, right? - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.19 23:04:00 - [107] Originally by: Frug Nope you have no idea what the point of the argument is because you still can't grasp the notion of giant fleet battles. I'm question the fact of a complaint here, if they are so far away from you that you can jump into range why don't you just do that? if you can jump to something can't you sat, well i wanna jump 100km out of this range so i can stay in optimal aswell, then boom your in range, wow that's so hard about that? It's evident to me that you should have now blaster ships mixed with your fleet and jump to the dumb pilots that are 150km out and start floying around in their fleet with a maga's gank fitting and start taking them out because they can't hit you from **** poor tracking speed from using long range guns.. What am I really missing about this or did you just over look a key point?
Naughty Boy Chronics of ordinary hate	Posted - 2006.12.20 00:30:00 - [108] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 20/12/2006 00:34:08 Originally by: Vincent Almasy I'm question the fact of a complaint here, if they are so far away from you that you can jump into range why don't you just do that? if you can jump to something can't you sat, well i wanna jump 100km out of this range so i can stay in optimal aswell, then boom your in range, wow that's so hard about that? Does the fact that it's impossible qualify as hard enough? You have already been told that you cannot warp to a ship which is not in your gang no matter the range he's at. Unless you want to argue that you are sharing a gang with the enemy fleet... Originally by: Vincent Almasy It's evident to me that you should have now blaster ships mixed with your fleet and jump to the dumb pilots that are 150km out and start floying around in their fleet with a maga's gank fitting and start taking them out because they can't hit you from ** poor tracking speed from using long range guns.. What am I really missing about this or did you just over look a key point? Close range battleships really are useless in a fleet fight, even if you land "on top" of the enemy fleet (say, 30+ BS on both sides at least). They just don't have much (if anything) going for them in such scenarios. Things happen to fast for them to manoeuver so the tracking advantage isn't relevant, their tank isn't useful beacuse of focused fire, they can't focus fire themselves as efficiently because of their own range limitations... Well, you get the picture (or at least you should). NB. In Rust We Trust**
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.12.20 03:03:00 - [109] any smart fleet snipers would have point guards to fry the blasterthron dumb enough to come in that close.
xaix ikkul	Posted - 2006.12.20 11:38:00 - [110] /signed

Raste Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.12.20 15:46:00 - [111] /signed Nerf all long range ammo then give Caldari a sniper boat. WTS 6m sp in gunnery. ===This is a sig=== "no matter where you are or what you're doing, you know that down in the southeast, LV and RA are trying to stab each other in the face." -- Cadiz ==============
Vincent Almasy Gallente The Underground	Posted - 2006.12.20 17:08:00 - [112] Originally by: Naughty Boy Does the fact that it's impossible qualify as hard enough? You have already been told that you cannot warp to a ship which is not in your gang no matter the range he's at. Unless you want to argue that you are sharing a gang with the enemy fleet... I mis understoot thingd then, i thought it didn't matter what it was and was like a stationary object that you could warp to.
Ciara Daag	Posted - 2007.02.25 07:47:00 - [113] Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: Baun You don't need great DPS when you outrange the entire enemy fleet and have enough ships to kill another BS in 1-2 group volleys. Rokh is quite overpowered. The thing that bugs alot of people, however, is that the Caldari (already quite powerful in many respects) got a new role with their t3 BS and no other races did. I can understand that people are angry or bugged that they didn't get some new shiny ship to fill a specefic role, but I really don't understand why they want to nerf the rokh, it's good at distances but try engaging below 150km and this ship will get severly outdamaged. And it is unable to get even close to the damage the others can dish out at close range. The one I think looks overpowered is the abaddon since it's so godly powerful at ranges up to 200km using aurora or extremely powerful closer using gleam. I just hope that people would stop being so biased and thinking that ALL fighting in eve is at 200-250 km exactly, which is the only range the Rokh can outdamage anything. I agree,take a rail equiped hyperion,and put it within 40k of a rail equiped rokh and see how fast the rokh goes down. Hyperion dishes out raw damage,rokh is better at range. You can boost damage on the rokh,and boost range on the hyperion,but still ,you expect the rokh to be best at range,and the hyperion to still do more damage. Its what they do.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:27:00 - [114] MILD NECROMANCY DETECTED (this thread has been inactive for 2 months) These topic died as people started to actually fly the Rokh for more than casual use and realised it was nice but nothing extremely special.
Arcadia1701 Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.02.25 17:14:00 - [115] Last time i checked, u cant be scarmed from 250Km by the rokh that hitting u, warp out? lol. But seriously, its got more range, get closer? dampen it? there are many options, so use them. Post with your main or STFU
Captain Schmungles	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:26:00 - [116] Geez. Are y'all mad because the Rokh truly is "unbalanced," or because it keeps killing you? I'd venture a little of both. If you read the description for the Rokh, it says that it was developed because the Caldari did not have a viable battleship-size gun platform. Now they do. The fact that the rokh excels at long range combat seems to make sense as EVERY Caldari ship excels at long-range combat. Since everyone's so mad about range, I notice that no one, for example, is *****ing about the Cerberus. No one is complaining that the Cerberus can snipe you at over 100km (with good skills) and that its damage bonuses effectively make heavy missiles equivalent to cruise missiles. No, having an incredibly deadly and long-range missile platform apparently isn't bad or "unbalanced," but having a decent long-range gun platform is. Give me a break.
Neuromandis EPSILON TEAM Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:03:00 - [117] Edited by: Neuromandis on 26/02/2007 01:01:19 Guys. This thread is dead, check the dates. Last date was 2 months ago, and it was carelessly brought back with necromancy (), disagreeing with the thread which had died anyway. As I said to him as well, people have long stopped complaining after they realised it's just another ship, very good sniper, but not at all overpowered. Let's all go back to work and let it die again, don't we? Until someone else shouts AT ANOTHER THREAD that the rokh is overpowered, mmmkay?
Myth Al'kar	Posted - 2007.04.09 05:45:00 - [118] People who cry on forums are funny. Rokhs fine.
Arcadia1701 Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.04.09 14:37:00 - [119] Thread necro is bad mkay, mods plzs lock this. My sig> Post with your main or STFU
Macro Terrorist	Posted - 2007.06.16 14:17:00 - [120] When Caldari gets a good ship the whiner brigade comes out to ask for a nerf. It still hasn't been nerfed. Oh noes the rokh can shoot further than my mega, whatever shall I do??? <- Yes, Caldari get range bonuses, Gallente get damage bonuses, adapt etc and stop whining.

MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.16 15:51:00 - [121] Originally by: rocka but sov it still outranges the tech 2 minmatar/amarr/gallantee pilots by around 100km that just isn¦t fair really? funny My falloff as a minmatar pilot doesn't care and my jag has an optimal range of 65 km
Michael McNeil	Posted - 2007.06.16 19:41:00 - [122] Im stumped... I am a Rokh pilot. i reach very long range, with t2 equipment, much farther then with t1 equipment. Given how i use the ship, its great for camps, so long as you have fast tacklers or bubbles. If your crying about ballance to the other races... this is war. one side always has a better sheild, the other side has the better gun. when the rokh is consorend its the gun, so you must find a better sheild. Ill suggest speed, as snipers worst enemy is anything flying faster then a non mwd ship flying faster then 200m/s. you just dont wish to put the time and training into getting a better sheild, so your trying to change the game to fit your view of what the game should be. please put your efforts into something like getting us a jump drive cabible freighter or something. thank you.
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.16 21:43:00 - [123] Edited by: Neuromandis on 16/06/2007 21:43:56 My god, is this the thread of Necromancy itself? It is DEAD, DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD ***** DEAD. And someone comes and excavates it to check on the remains every two months. WHY? If the last 2-3 posters didn't notice, the thread had been inactive for 2 months, someone said it was bull**, it was inactive for another two months, another one raised it to say it made no sense, another two months, people have realised the rokh is fine and nobody cries nerf anymore. For 6 months now in case you didn't notice, nobody cries nerf anymore. CAN WE PLEASE LET THIS THREAD DIE? Or lock it or something?
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.16 22:12:00 - [124] Give it another two months . Also: THE ROKH IS FINE.
Ferocious FeAr Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.16 23:53:00 - [125] Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 16/06/2007 23:52:30 This is where thousands of crybabies come to the forums to get caldari nerfed some more. Give it a damn rest, the ship doesn't do THAT much damage and its not cost effective for fleet. Megathron does more damage and its cheaper. Don't hate me, learn to love me
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.17 00:00:00 - [126] Yeah but the Rokh violates one of Eve's major game design rules: Caldari ships must suck.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.17 01:08:00 - [127] ** off with the necro. Originally by:** Benglada And whos going to tackle for them? Jesus?
Macro Terrorist	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:08:00 - [128] Edited by: Macro Terrorist on 17/06/2007 02:10:55 Some necroes are pointless and uninteresting. This one illustrates perfectly a long standing "nerf caldari" mentality in the community; hence well worth bringing back to the surface.
l3lind Man Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:17:00 - [129] Edited by: l3lind Man on 17/06/2007 02:15:58 freaking necro, nvm
Icome4u Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:23:00 - [130] Edited by: Icome4u on 17/06/2007 02:22:52 What he^ said ______ Originally by: Vyger If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?

Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:30:00 - [131] Originally by: Macro Terrorist Some necroes are pointless and uninteresting. This one illustrates perfectly a long standing "nerf caldari" mentality in the community; hence well worth bringing back to the surface. /Tinfoil
Ciara Daag	Posted - 2007.06.17 02:46:00 - [132] Originally by: rocka but sov it still outranges the tech 2 minmatar/amarr/gallantee pilots by around 100km that just isn¦t fair Im a rokh pilot. If you want to hit 250km with a rokh,you need bs lvl 5. Thats no small skill to train. Furthermore,those guns will have to load iron ammo. (I used faction for pvp before I had t2) I found that I really didnt do enough damage at that range. A rokh at those ranges,if thats all you can do is pretty useless,so I wouldnt worry to much about the range. Any decent tank can take hits from iron ammo all day long. Furthermore,to get that,you have to fill all your lows with tracking enhancers or your mids with tracking computers (or a combination of both) and need at least two sensor boosters (maybe three depending on your skills.) Since you get no damage bonuses from the ship,you almost are required to fit three magnetic field stabilizers of some sort. Furthermore,without fives in your engineering and electronics skills,you will need to have a reactor and or cpu fitted to mount the necessary modules. If you have all the right skills,you can mount a single t2 multispec hardner,but if you dont,your going to have to use a tracking computer to replace a tracking enhancer,to fit a cpu,and you may even have to lose a mag stabilizer,losing alot of damage to fit a reactor down there. With top skills,the rokh is really nice,70% or more on all resists,and able to engage from 20km all the way out to 250. Without those skills,you have a problem. If you setup for that extreme range,then you will be very weak to em and thermal. You can stay out of range to protect yourself,but then you cant do signifigant damage with your iron ammo. You can get to medium range,and use plutonium or such,but then your a sitting duck to anyone using thermal or em,like those amarr ships. You will still do inferior damage to them,becuase you get no damage bonuses.
Khyara	Posted - 2007.06.17 05:41:00 - [133] Edited by: Khyara on 17/06/2007 05:42:05 I think the real problem here was hit a while ago - that being Caladri arent allowed to have a half decent ship (and I emphasize HALF DECENT - as the Rohk isnt that great and Ill get to why in a sec) - its "against the game mechanics" according to most players. lets examine shall we? Frigate class ships? Maybe the Kestrel you could argue is an interesting frigate, if you happen to have missile skills. Merlin stinks as its a split weapon system boat (missiles and turrets) Cruiser class? Moa - crap. Weak little ship incapable of scratching other ships in PVP - I have used this ship extensively and its very weak, even with T2 guns. Its range is dismal at best - its no sniper. For PVE it isnt bad. Caracal - Crap - the thing is a paperweight at best - again unless you have some serious skills invested into missiles, even then its weak compared to other races cruisers (cough Vexor Cough Thorax.) Again Caracal=another PVE boat. Battlecruiser Class? Oh wait - Ferox CRAP. Only has 5 turret slots, 2 mandatory missile slots. Its supposed to be a sniper - wow a sniper at 130 KM's? Wow thats super far! (hear the sarcasm?). When it is at any sort of range its shots are very weak, doing 50-60 damage per shot with T2 250mm Turrets. This is supposed to be the little Rokh - but its definately not a PvP boat at all, and it stinks as fleet support as its range is severly limited and dps is dismal. Drake? No complaints on this ship - its a little power house - again if you have the missile skills (you'll note that Caladari are geared towards missiles, and the Rokh is turrets - just thought I would point that out here) Lets compare the Caldari BC's agianst the Hurricane or the Myrmidon shall we? Oh which one comes out on top and which one ends up being bits of space dust? Ya thats right - Caladri ships for the suck! Battleships? Raven - Crap in PvP. This ship has been nerfed more than any other ship in the game. If you want to risk using slow torpedo's in PvP, go ahead. I for one wouldnt take the chance on this Tug boat - as thats all it amounts to. Great for PvE, but terrible for PvP. Oh - longest range on a Raven? 204 KM's I believe but Im not a Missiles specialist so I wouldnt know (pretty close to the 250 Rohk tho eh?) Rohk - Mediocre at PvP at best. I have trained for this ship - I have all of my Hybrid turret skills to V, and all supporting skills to IV or V - and I refused to fly this ship until I did. Great - so I can get mine to hit at 247 KM's (because I dont have BS to V) totally fitted as a ganker, no tank. Ok...so it hits at a long range, great, what kind of DPS does it do? around 75 per shot averaged out (with spike). 75??? For months and months of training?? are you kidding me? Im tickling whatever Im shooting at - 75 is embarassing at best. Oh wait, I hear someone saying - "Ya but its a sniper ship!". Ok great - so you take this gigantic boat of a ship and try to manouever it out of range and into the 250 range in a fleet battle - Good luck - you'll be popped faster than a whuppi cushion sat on by a fat kid. Now if you had some setup time, then great - otherwise your dead! Not to mention the fact that there are several ships in the game that can hit at 180 KM's - which is not fat off 250 - and they can do significantly more DPS than the craptacular Rohk. I for one have ditched the Caladari ships and moved on to Minamatar and Gallente after my dissapointing excercise of training up for this ship thinking it would actually be a decent PvP ship. As with most Caladari ships I was sadly mistaken (it was like the Ferox all over again...)
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.06.17 19:43:00 - [134] Every idiot who want "balance-nerf" the rokh. shut up. because idiots like u are almost every caldari ship worst than all other!!! Than nerf nega because outadame the rokh in close range. nerf Domi because can use nos and drones, nerf everything. IDIOTS
Neuromandis Novastorm Inc Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.18 08:44:00 - [135] Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/06/2007 08:43:41 Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/06/2007 08:43:30 This have got to be the best necro ever. Last 3 posters: Before striving to defend so vehemently the Rokh, and spending all that time to write down the aggressions, did you bother to check whether someone actually calling for a nerf to the Rokh actually has written anything in this thread for the past 6 months???? Check the dates on the previous page, check the date of the thread. You are answering to noone. This thread is a necromancy, save your breath. STOP BUMPING IT FFS!! HINT: NOONE WANTS TO NERF THE ROKH ANYMORE!!
Santa Anna	Posted - 2007.06.18 09:14:00 - [136] Originally by: Neuromandis Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/06/2007 08:43:41 Edited by: Neuromandis on 18/06/2007 08:43:30 This have got to be the best necro ever. Last 3 posters: Before striving to defend so vehemently the Rokh, and spending all that time to write down the aggressions, did you bother to check whether someone actually calling for a nerf to the Rokh actually has written anything in this thread for the past 6 months???? Check the dates on the previous page, check the date of the thread. You are answering to noone. This thread is a necromancy, save your breath. STOP BUMPING IT FFS!! HINT: NOONE WANTS TO NERF THE ROKH ANYMORE!! I find so much hilarity in the panic and idiocy the ship induced in the first place. Every other race has at least two better fleet ships, and you can't even fight where the Rokh's bonus is useful. I'd much rather have useful ECM back TBFH. Damps on Scorps = blasphemy.
Shivamousse	Posted - 2007.07.20 02:09:00 - [137] you have to be really joking man ! u are crying because caldari now has a battleships thats good with guns ! i mean the rokh will never ever be able to have the dps of a hyperion or the long range dps of a tempest. its just made for long range engagements and fleet support... this is the caldari role in this game and i can only guess that ccp was very aware of what they were doing ! you cant just call it Uber because it outranges other bs... then you would have to petition a scorpion cause it is the best ew ship... youre talking about effects in the reality of this game... you get back to reality then ! if ur flying gallente be happy with ur drones and tank and damage or skill something else man ! sry for things which have already been said ! didnt read the whole thread ^^ greetz, Shiva
Selnix Gallente Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.20 03:11:00 - [138] wow... way to necro a thread from last year
aldarrin	Posted - 2007.07.20 04:17:00 - [139] A rokh fitted for sniping has no tank to speak of because its lows and mids are filled with magnetic stabs, tracking enhancers / computers, and sensor boosters. Just MWD on over there and pop 'em. Range bonus is great and all, but I'd rather fit a tank and make use it as a small scale pvp nos boat.
Lord Loom Loom Service	Posted - 2007.07.20 17:03:00 - [140] yes I'm aware this is a necroed thread, but I'd like to point out that back when the Rokh was added some people panicked and loudly claimed how every single other BS would become useless in fleet fights - guess it didn't happen

Talon Trueseer	Posted - 2007.07.20 17:06:00 - [141] Well i got to say a range of 200k is a bit pointless if you can just warp to them from 150k. Really you only need a range of 75k otherwise if your further away it will be faster to fly away from you to then warp back.
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.21 02:01:00 - [142] Hey I remember this thread. The kind of behavior displayed in the first few pages is shocking.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.07.21 03:22:00 - [143] Who necro'd the Rokh thread again? Can one of the mods please lock this? -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
SexxxSlave	Posted - 2007.07.21 08:24:00 - [144] Edited by: SexxxSlave on 21/07/2007 08:24:50
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.07.21 22:49:00 - [145] Is it that time of the month? I had almost forgotten... --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.07.22 00:08:00 - [146] this thread amazes me..... people are actually upset that the rokh might be a better sniper then others.... or shock... it could possibly be the best sniper? zomg nerf caldari, they dont need any ship good at anything other then pve. Caldari is the pve race, and shouldnt have any pvp cabiblities. A rokh shouldn't be able to out range a megathron, it certainly shouldnt be able to out tank it. The rokh should be able to die to every other races sniper 100% of the time.
Luna Nilaya Black-Mesa THE V I G I L	Posted - 2007.07.22 14:41:00 - [147] Ships shouldn't be redesigned just because game is badly designed.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.22 16:06:00 - [148] Originally by: Luna Nilaya Ships shouldn't be redesigned just because game is badly designed. leave ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
Incantare Caldari Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.07.22 19:36:00 - [149] What I find funny is that people were *****ing Caldari got a new role with their new BS while the other races did not. They're idiots, Caldari was the only race that did not have a fleet battleship, it made sense for that role to be introduced. And the Mael provided a new role as well. The suggestion the Rokh should lose turret hardpoints is rage inducing.
Bryce Bolz Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:42:00 - [150] /not signed

Damned Force	Posted - 2007.07.23 06:29:00 - [151] Originally by: rocka but sov it still outranges the tech 2 minmatar/amarr/gallantee pilots by around 100km that just isn¦t fair what a nice post :) And Minmatar outspeed all other races And Amarr outtank all other races And Gallente outdamage all other races Yhat just isn't fair :P
Ssoraszh Tzarszh Minmatar Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.07.23 08:57:00 - [152] Holy Necro Please dont do that, it makes the kittens sad.
Torothanax	Posted - 2007.07.23 21:44:00 - [153] I'm really not seein a problem here. Warp out, warp back in closer. It's not like a rokh and scramble you at that range. Can't really say the same about bein in a blaster megathrons opt range.
Neuromandis	Posted - 2007.07.23 23:57:00 - [154] Edited by: Neuromandis on 23/07/2007 23:56:41 nvm --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
Rakshasa	Posted - 2007.07.26 00:35:00 - [155] Edited by: Rakshasa on 26/07/2007 00:40:48 Edited by: Rakshasa on 26/07/2007 00:37:23 Originally by: DriveCrash t2 fitted mega with loads of skills, 150km to do some damage. t1 fitted rokh with **** skills, 200km doing wtf damage. Rokh is a T2 battleship, whereas the mega is a T1 battleship. Note that a Hyperion equipped with T1 gear, can out armor-tank a Caldari Battleship equipped with T2 repairers. I like the fact that the different races ships have different strengths and weaknesses. If gear is more significant than ship type, ships totally lose their flavor. It is far cooler when you can look at a ship type and have a good guess what it's strengths and weaknesses are. I.e. "Rokh... look out, it's a sniper." "Megathron... don't let it get close."
General StarScream Gallente Enheduanni	Posted - 2007.07.26 12:06:00 - [156] Ay Caldri has the best ships in game. for 1vs1 or fleet, cant beat em. even a mega will lose to a torp Raven. it has allmost no chance, the raven needs to drop using inv and use em and exp sheild harnders insted, like anyone is going to use that. just fitt 2 inv 2 x large boosters and 1 booster booster, and 1 heavy inj and some missile dam mods in low and some cap recharges and you will pawn any bs with torps.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.26 12:15:00 - [157] The rokh is completely fine as it is. If you want 250k oprimal train for it if not get a mega and outdamage the rokh up to 200k...
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.26 12:17:00 - [158] Edited by: d026 on 26/07/2007 12:19:23 Originally by: General StarScream Ay Caldri has the best ships in game. for 1vs1 or fleet, cant beat em. even a mega will lose to a torp Raven. it has allmost no chance, the raven needs to drop using inv and use em and exp sheild harnders insted, like anyone is going to use that. just fitt 2 inv 2 x large boosters and 1 booster booster, and 1 heavy inj and some missile dam mods in low and some cap recharges and you will pawn any bs with torps. a properly plated gank mega wtf bbqs any raven anyday if you dont start your fight above 40k. PERIOD! I did alot of fights against my mates tII neutron mega on the test server and teh onyl setup that could beat him was a armor tanked speed fit raven with lots of ewar.
Magazaki	Posted - 2007.07.26 13:20:00 - [159] Yeah!! Keep it up!! They're not nerfing the Rokh!! We'll Show them!!! /Sarcasm off Talk about beating a dead horse...


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