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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
198
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Posted - 2015.11.12 21:22:40 -
[301] - Quote
double postage |
Marsha Mallow
2733
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Posted - 2015.11.13 00:25:27 -
[302] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:I get that you're making a joke and I like the joke, but it's funny because it's true about how people in MMOs react to change, but not so true about MMOs not making changes that shoot themselves in the foot. By the way I am like the worst ever audience member at a comedy show.. ever. Yes, it has been noted that many of you are emotional wookies babbling on about irrelevant mechanics.
But anyway back to the sandbox.
Shall we just have a riot?
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
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Ashterothi
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
324
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Posted - 2015.11.13 01:39:17 -
[303] - Quote
Where do I go to protest the protesters?
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26057
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Posted - 2015.11.13 06:19:17 -
[304] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said:
Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game.
2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all.
It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing.
Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player. How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors?
Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made. Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time.
(this is essentially the argument I'm reading)
GÖÑ
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26057
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Posted - 2015.11.13 06:21:03 -
[305] - Quote
I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode.
Figures.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
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Posted - 2015.11.13 07:14:08 -
[306] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
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Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
65
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Posted - 2015.11.13 16:43:47 -
[307] - Quote
Hilmar, i thought with your diet and your overall change of look you were trying to somehow show us that you are not the same old space jew we knew in older debacles.
Or wait, I actually didn't think you'Ve changed in the slightest. You just exhausted the community by continuously poking the so called game core and after few years, you can probably finally also sell gold ammunition without any community resistance. You won,
yet you lost. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
201
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Posted - 2015.11.13 17:10:40 -
[308] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode. Figures.
I'm hopped up on flu medication so i'm an easy mark tbf
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Marsha Mallow
2737
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Posted - 2015.11.13 17:30:35 -
[309] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode. Figures. Nah I take on board that your point by point summary has more detail elsewhere - I'm assuming in the SP devblog thread? Need to go through it and have a proper look at some point when I have time before replying to your post here (I stopped following it early on). You might be right and I haven't quite got what you're getting at. Also I'm still thinking about it. Sometimes these bigger topics are best left for a day or so to consider rather than getting tied in knots in a back-and-forth.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26061
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Posted - 2015.11.13 19:02:10 -
[310] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding?
No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK.
My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26061
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Posted - 2015.11.13 19:05:48 -
[311] - Quote
Ok Marsha, I was only teasing.
Portmanteau, I hope you recover from your flu and feel better.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6459
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Posted - 2015.11.13 22:20:56 -
[312] - Quote
Removed an off topic post.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
40784
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Posted - 2015.11.13 23:10:57 -
[313] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote: Ok Marsha, I was only teasing.
Portmanteau, I hope you recover from your flu and feel better.
Back to the best Sib portrait.
Nice change (though you never have a bad one anyway).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32721
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Posted - 2015.11.13 23:33:51 -
[314] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation. I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said: Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats. 1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game. 2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all. It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing. Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player. How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors? Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made. Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. (this is essentially the argument I'm reading) GÖÑ I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
Small groups can align with each other, but then technically that isn't a small group.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32721
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:40:28 -
[315] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding? No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK. My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win. Whether I have the time or money, they're interchangeable resources for the purpose of obtaining stuff. If I didn't have money then I would need time, but luckily that isn't the case, and I can have either or.
As a sidenote, I was not enticed to participate in the boosters from the blood raider event. Way too much time required, even to log in and buy them from market. Even before the pricing, which I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, I wasn't at all interested.
Did I mention I probably won't participate in skill inject pack gameplay?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Jonas Kanjus
Side Busters
23
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Posted - 2015.11.15 03:21:13 -
[316] - Quote
Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks!
My start date to EVE Online:
6/25/2005 8:24:57 AM UTC
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
483
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 10:57:32 -
[317] - Quote
Jonas Kanjus wrote:Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks! I seems yes. But i don't think there is an explicit answer anywhere. That would mean that i lose 90% of the skill point i pack and inject+ AUR. So can't really see it being a thing.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Jenshae Chiroptera
2391
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Posted - 2015.11.15 11:12:42 -
[318] - Quote
There is too much ISK floating around in certain groups. Skill injections would only benefit them even more than anyone else.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Jonas Kanjus
Side Busters
24
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Posted - 2015.11.15 22:30:53 -
[319] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Jonas Kanjus wrote:Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks! I seems yes. But i don't think there is an explicit answer anywhere. That would mean that i lose 90% of the skill point i pack and inject+ AUR. So can't really see it being a thing.
By those numbers, I can't see the skill point packs being that useful. Honestly, this game should have a means to modify ones skill sets to better suit the direction a player wants to go. Take my current toon for instance, my skills are all over the place. I'd be happy to pay ISK to be able to move my skill points from unwanted skills to other skills I want to use. If I spend days, weeks or even months to train a particular area just to find out I don't like that, then I should be able to reverse that course and move those skill points elsewhere.
I could see my above idea being pointless if the training times were significantly less; but that's not the case here.
My start date to EVE Online:
6/25/2005 8:24:57 AM UTC
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32774
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Posted - 2015.11.15 23:54:38 -
[320] - Quote
Correction: I might use skill packs to finish skills like Advanced Drone Interfacing V and Trade skills.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Dyllan Ma'tar
Anarchist Industrial Syndicate of New Eden
4
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Posted - 2015.11.16 05:00:26 -
[321] - Quote
So when can we expect this to go live? I have people to eat.
> You can win with certainty with the spirit of "one cut". ~ Miyamoto Musashi
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26116
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Posted - 2015.11.16 05:06:45 -
[322] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many.
But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?).
Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Squids
26119
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Posted - 2015.11.16 05:30:14 -
[323] - Quote
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
Incarna survey by T'amber link here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1395464&page=1
80% of EVE players against non-cosmetic microtransactions using AUR. Specifically: "you think that because you pay a set fee each month that you should have access to all the options and features ingame that everyone else gets"
Quote:Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.
That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.
We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.
Source: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1341909&page=1#7
CCP Shadow wrote:Just for clarification, the skillpoints CCP will be giving pilots to make up for the extended downtime in this case is not tied to microtransactions.
Editing to add this: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE.
. .
No. There are no microtransaction plans, whatsoever. I wrote "in this case" because this extended downtime was an unusual situation. It's not every day we relocate our servers to a new facility.
Source: http://eve-search.com/thread/1543814-0/page/1#7
Quote:Quote:Are you trolling me bro? Cool Our business model isn't changing, you all have nothing to be concerned about.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
739
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Posted - 2015.11.16 05:52:35 -
[324] - Quote
Why play the game at all? Why not just compare the cumulative RL bank accounts of each side of an in-game conflict and declare the winner?
Be done with all this nonsense like transversal and fitting and falloff.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32799
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Posted - 2015.11.16 22:57:12 -
[325] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay. As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many. But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?). Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point? I was kinda space baller on my own, in a small independent (now alt) corp. Nothing stops a player from using wallet to pad their skill sheet, big group or small.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32799
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Posted - 2015.11.16 22:59:47 -
[326] - Quote
And you know, as PLEX values rise, it becomes more of a wallet player's market.
AND my last three years of ten-subbing were done while attending school full-time, so there's that. You know, life priorities and stuff.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2015.11.16 23:44:52 -
[327] - Quote
"skill points mean nothing, get in a ship and go out to pew day one"
"whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
463
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Posted - 2015.11.17 02:10:26 -
[328] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:"skill points mean nothing, get in a ship and go out to pew day one" "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" - In EVE General Discussion [ Original thread ] EvE is for the mentally unstable, the narcissist or psychopath, the ones who have a superiority complex, the emo and the body builder who shoots 50mg of adrenalin every day, it's for the people who have OCD and ADHD. EvE is not for the ordinary.
Ok, I get where you're coming from. EvE does need people who want to be the best at all cost, but it also needs people who are inclusive and think of other pilots too. Without the latter, there would be no eve-uni or the recently shut down RvB ... people who spend their time so others can get greater enjoyment of the game.
The people who take the time to write up essay style posts with arguments, are certainly not crying "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs". They are pointing out certain risks of the proposed mechanics. More so they are urging CCP to be very careful about changing a mechanic which is a fundamental part of gameplay. By this I don't mean the waiting time until a skill is trained, which isn't fun. What I mean is being forced to make choices in what ships you want to fly.
Lowering the bar is one thing, setting the bar as low as you're able to pay for is a whole different thing. I'm not going to reiterate how allthough PLEX & the character bazaar are already allowing people to circumvent the system, they are quite different from the proposed SP trade.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to SP trading, but I do think the number of SP which can be injected should be limited per month, per 3 moths or per 6 months. This would allow CCP to test the waters for SP trading without causing too much damage, should they have to pull the system again. It would also allow the current SP system to maintain part of its function of forcing players to make choices which for a time will exclude them from other options (opportunity cost).
Opportunity cost may be a nuisance but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Our economy is based on the fact that you can't do everything by yourself. The fact that engineers, lawyers, doctors are highly specialized in their field at the cost of not training other stuff in the same time is what allows them to perform better in their field and earn higher wages. The times where a blacksmith is also a dentist and a surgeon are luckily over.
And so it is in EvE. We have specialized "professions". Some of those require actually to become skilled at playing in that field. Others just require the patience to wait until your skills have trained. Making it possible to correct mistakes or getting faster into specific ships is good. Making it dependant on your wallet is bad, especially if you continue asking for a subscription fee.
TL:DR criticizing the proposed SP trade system doesn't mean that one is fundamentally opposed to SP trading. Reducing well thought out arguments to "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" is childish behaviour and doesn't help your case.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
32803
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Posted - 2015.11.17 12:20:18 -
[329] - Quote
Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
465
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Posted - 2015.11.17 12:41:22 -
[330] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
*hug*
Now, now .. feeling better ?
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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