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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
364
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Posted - 2015.10.17 19:58:39 -
[1] - Quote
Time for another MASS-PROTEST, after Incarna greed is good debalce, CCP Games still has not learned the lesson 
source: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536826276
Cya you in Amarr, on the Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy station undock, shooting the monument !
Regards, a Freelancer
PS: Time to make stand against this Bullshit all over again, like we did in 2011 and made the Company change policy.
https://ardentdefense.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/eve-jita-mass-protest/
CCP Seagull wrote:Quote:#51 - 2014-05-12 17:11:55 UTC Freelancer117 wrote: May I remind CCPgames about this dev blog: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/
"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage." Hope that awareness has not dissipated over the years. Regards, a Freelancer Nothing has changed in our approach since that blog - the same principles still apply, and we will still discuss all new plans with the CSM.
source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:09:54 -
[2] - Quote
Um....No...I don't give a s(h)it.... |
Zappity
Black Aces
I N F A M O U S
2499
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:11:08 -
[3] - Quote
I think the proposed change is a good idea. I would think otherwise if the character bazaar were not already a thing. But it is, so bring it on.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9272
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:11:30 -
[4] - Quote
If you are looking for support in this endeavor, I'm afraid it won't be coming from me.
Mr Epeen 
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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syndic4te
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:12:40 -
[5] - Quote
i like cake
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BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
477
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:12:47 -
[6] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:If you are looking for support in this endeavor, I'm afraid it won't be coming from me. Mr Epeen
Well said... |
Marsha Mallow
2641
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:15:51 -
[7] - Quote
Sorry but I only riot on contract now. Will accept Fedos as payment.
And some effort, please. I'm going to need an inspiring Braveheart style speech first. Bit of arm waving.
You know there was a Russian led protest in Jita a few weeks back over grrr sov changes? Kind of backfired really because it was comical.
Fingers crossed for the appearance of a role playing Drifter fleet in Amarr for some real entertainment 
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
70
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:17:39 -
[8] - Quote
I dunno, honestly if it was the difference between Eve suffering a slow and painful starvation of funds or enough money to keep Eve going another 10 years, (not saying Eve is dieing, just saying hypothetically), I would rather have Eve with a few ****** pay to win elements than not at all. |
BrundleMeth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
478
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:21:36 -
[9] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Sorry but I only riot on contract now. Will accept Fedos as payment.
And some effort, please. I'm going to need an inspiring Braveheart style speech first...
FREEDOMMMMMMMMMMMM........
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
698
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:33:58 -
[10] - Quote
cuz im proud to be a caldarian, where at least I know I'm free. |
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Moon Moon Burdy
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
92
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:42:13 -
[11] - Quote
They hate the monument!! Get away from the monument!!
Things that went boom
Storytime with Moon Moon New stories (almost) daily!
Promising Young Murderer, Education Appreciated.
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Hound Halfhand
Repo Industries
13
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:49:28 -
[12] - Quote
Fight the power. |
Chocolaty Sprogmaster
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
17
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Posted - 2015.10.17 20:51:18 -
[13] - Quote
I was outraged at first glance, but after reading the implementation and thinking about it, I don't really see a problem. Skill points aren't being created for $$, they have to be converted from a character that trained them, and at diminishing returns.
While I'm not a fan of the extreme diminishing returns for higher SP characters (SP already mean less to higher SP chars, why such a huge penalty?), and there will be issues that need to be worked out, its not really providing anything that can't already be purchased through the Bazaar. It just sort of streamlines the process and makes CCP some more money in the process, so go for it IMO. |
NUBIARN
Brutal Ballerinas
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 20:54:24 -
[14] - Quote
Must get some smart bombing battleships setup in Amar  |
Eternal Bob
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
45
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:29:52 -
[15] - Quote
Yes, log in to CCP's game and shoot some pixels, that'll teach them  |
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
364
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:33:12 -
[16] - Quote
Eternal Bob wrote:Yes, log in to CCP's game and shoot some pixels, that'll teach them
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-letter-to-the-followers-of-eve/
Power to the Costumers, Vote with your Wallet
Quote:There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.
Sam Walton
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton
The players will make a better version of the game, then CCP initially plans.
http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
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Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8792
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:39:13 -
[17] - Quote
Went to Amarr, expecting a huge protest...
...only to find a solitary - and disturbed - individual, railing against imaginary threats in his urine-stained underwear.
If being a Freelancer means wandering about an empty station with faeces-smeared trousers with a shabby cardboard protest sign, count me in (only joking, count me out)
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
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Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
698
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:42:27 -
[18] - Quote
lol@dudes wearing underpants |
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
478
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:44:21 -
[19] - Quote
BURN EVE TO THE GROUND.
RIOT! (GAMES) |
Mixu Paatelainen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
219
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:44:40 -
[20] - Quote
Mm... Nope. |
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2015.10.17 21:46:40 -
[21] - Quote
This is dumb, the proposal is amazing and I hope they go through with it cause it's long overdue. People who stifle progress or attempt to like yourself are a large portion of what's wrong with this game. |
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
71
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:47:02 -
[22] - Quote
Hey guys, I was watching all of the replies poor in, and I thought of a game. Let's see how many replies we can make before an ISD locks this thread! Everybody start posting random crap! I want to break 100! |
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
1221
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 21:47:25 -
[23] - Quote
If only the clock could be turned back on the wisom that was dust and vampires and grand visions never delivered, maybe all this shameless cash grab, milk the playerbase for skins, aurum, sp for exchange and all things horrid and against the core values of the original game would just all be a bad dream.
Concord Approved Trader
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:14:02 -
[24] - Quote
I liked the idea overall. Is all early game stuff. Not enough to make super power characters. If mechanics improved, it is an easy way to get proper small ships into roles without being possible to even come near us majors. Is sp transfer as well so no artificial addition of SP. Enjoy. It makes people happy and CCP money. It already happens plenty in the trading and sharing of characters.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Leonardo Adami
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:23:42 -
[25] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:If only the clock could be turned back on the wisom that was dust and vampires and grand visions never delivered, maybe all this shameless cash grab, milk the playerbase for skins, aurum, sp for exchange and all things horrid and against the core values of the original game would just all be a bad dream.
Stopping living in the past, look to the future. You're as bad as the OP. |
Schmantoo
I Really Hate You Guys
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 22:50:52 -
[26] - Quote
I can't wait for this great feature. Thx CCP |
Chocolaty Sprogmaster
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
20
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:01:25 -
[27] - Quote
Divine Entervention wrote:lol@dudes wearing pants
Fixed that for ya |
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
1221
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:05:31 -
[28] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:Boom Boom Longtime wrote:If only the clock could be turned back on the wisom that was dust and vampires and grand visions never delivered, maybe all this shameless cash grab, milk the playerbase for skins, aurum, sp for exchange and all things horrid and against the core values of the original game would just all be a bad dream. Stopping living in the past, look to the future. You're as bad as the OP.
Wow - Endeavouring to give me advice - Were you the business analyst that convinced CCP to sign off finance on dust and vampires?
Concord Approved Trader
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Adooni
H.O.M.E.W.O.R.L.D
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.17 23:53:42 -
[29] - Quote
I have similar opinion. I do not know why developer is trying to change the best MMO game into P2W game !!!! They basically trying to find the way for inflation but this is not the way they should go - now we will have situation someone that got more money at VISA or in game will have even bigger advantage and game will eventually die. I cannot understood why some1 want to kill game that with success is with us for 12 years. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:20:31 -
[30] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:
Wow - Endeavouring to give me advice - Were you the business analyst that convinced CCP to sign off finance on dust and vampires?
Both were good at the time. Not many predicted the economic downturn which did affect CCP as well. Dust, personally I quite liked how it played. Even now, the design and concept of it is very solid. I say even on the level for professional E-sports. If it was updated to also be one of the PS4 release games, how fantastic would that have been?
Also, the vampire MMO would have been quite like eve. Smaller, but a devoted playerbase. A true online MMO with a real RPG section to it? I was really waiting. Myself and a group of friends seriously wanted to see what they were going to do. I know many others did as well. Would have been a game that could have been good for the non gamer crowd. Hard to judge without actually having the game.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
1222
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:36:28 -
[31] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Boom Boom Longtime wrote:
Wow - Endeavouring to give me advice - Were you the business analyst that convinced CCP to sign off finance on dust and vampires?
Both were good at the time. Not many predicted the economic downturn which did affect CCP as well. Dust, personally I quite liked how it played. Even now, the design and concept of it is very solid. I say even on the level for professional E-sports. If it was updated to also be one of the PS4 release games, how fantastic would that have been? Also, the vampire MMO would have been quite like eve. Smaller, but a devoted playerbase. A true online MMO with a real RPG section to it? I was really waiting. Myself and a group of friends seriously wanted to see what they were going to do. I know many others did as well. Would have been a game that could have been good for the non gamer crowd. Hard to judge without actually having the game.
Dust - CCP trying to compete in a fps market that recycles iteself every year (doomed)
Vampires - Insert comment (Divert core input cash from main income souce being eve and divert cash resources from sustaining core poduct into vampies) (doomed)
Concord Approved Trader
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Marsha Mallow
2643
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 00:45:47 -
[32] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:If only the clock could be turned back on the wisom that was dust and vampires and grand visions never delivered, maybe all this shameless cash grab, milk the playerbase for skins, aurum, sp for exchange and all things horrid and against the core values of the original game would just all be a bad dream.
If only the clock could be turned back from you announcing you had a great arse, me asking for pics or gtfo and you actually sending them >.> Least I think it was you. Reported for cyberbullying btw.
I'm not sure teen vamp fetishists would have gelled well with this lot anyway, and god knows what adult vamp fetishists are like. I would :shudder: but I think some of them are here already. Babbling on about stilletos and tophats and stuff.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Wendrika Hydreiga
527
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:06:50 -
[33] - Quote
I for one welcome our new brain paste fed overlords. With luck, I'll get to be one too! |
Boom Boom Longtime
EVE Corporation 6908469858
Heroes and Villains.
1222
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:14:45 -
[34] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Boom Boom Longtime wrote:If only the clock could be turned back on the wisom that was dust and vampires and grand visions never delivered, maybe all this shameless cash grab, milk the playerbase for skins, aurum, sp for exchange and all things horrid and against the core values of the original game would just all be a bad dream. If only the clock could be turned back from you announcing you had a great arse, me asking for pics or gtfo and you actually sending them >.> Least I think it was you. Reported for cyberbullying btw. I'm not sure teen vamp fetishists would have gelled well with this lot anyway, and god knows what adult vamp fetishists are like. I would :shudder: but I think some of them are here already. Babbling on about stilletos and tophats and stuff.
I assume this isn't directed at me Marsha?
Concord Approved Trader
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Davir Sometaww
Snuff Box
Snuffed Out
62
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:23:37 -
[35] - Quote
Chocolaty Sprogmaster wrote:I was outraged at first glance, but after reading the implementation and thinking about it, I don't really see a problem. Skill points aren't being created for $$, they have to be converted from a character that trained them, and at diminishing returns.
While I'm not a fan of the extreme diminishing returns for higher SP characters (SP already mean less to higher SP chars, why such a huge penalty?), and there will be issues that need to be worked out, its not really providing anything that can't already be purchased through the Bazaar. It just sort of streamlines the process and makes CCP some more money in the process, so go for it IMO.
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Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
9
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:25:10 -
[36] - Quote
Lol. Protest by logging in and playing the game.
That's not the way to protest.
If you are serious about protesting and want to send a real message to CCP, then the only way to protest is to back up your words by unsubscribing all accounts and not logging in.
Maybe keep one account active to keep your main training, but don't log in.
That's the only way to send CCP a clear, simple message that you don't agree with their direction. Tell them and then back that up with action that has a much better measure of impact. |
Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
The Otherworld
131
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 01:25:32 -
[37] - Quote
There are two problems with holding a mass protest against these changes at this stage, regardless of your view on the subject:
1. The referred to post is a concept being floated by CCP to the game's community to ask for their opinions on the subject. It is not slated for release right now.
2. The model can be adjusted to better fit with the demands of players.
Personally I am not entirely against the idea of applying skill points to your own character. Is there really a difference between this and purchasing a character on the Bazaar (a process which also involves a micro-transaction and the acquisition of skill points). I can't support a mass protest against a potential feature which helps to modernise the game. |
Yourmoney Mywallet
Jita Institute of Applied Monetary Manipulation
615
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 02:21:38 -
[38] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Not many predicted the economic downturn which did affect CCP as well.
Economic downturn killed Dust and Vamps.
Ooohhh kaaayyy... |
v0cal minority
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:18:37 -
[39] - Quote
I have flu and CBA to pvp, I'm in, this change is awful |
NFain
Elysian Ascent
Empyreus
154
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 03:33:24 -
[40] - Quote
quite honestly all it's going to do is make eve easier for us and a lot more fun. I'd rather have a lot of people in shiny **** they really don't know how to fly then no people in shiny **** at all.  |
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Chopper Rollins
Lantean Empire
1111
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Posted - 2015.10.18 04:28:18 -
[41] - Quote
Heh, people still think protests mean something.
Leave the game as a protest, otherwise, you're doing nothing.
I watched that silly youtube vid of a crowd shooting a monument with this ominous, building orchestral war music and all i could think was "Zero damage, Leni Riefestahl, you have a lot to answer for in hell."
Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
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La Rynx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
422
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 07:19:57 -
[42] - Quote
pfff.
just check the numbers.
the prices for those trades are high at start to a place where it gets ridiculous.
rich gankers will benefit the most, the can, getting most required skill in short time.
beyond 50m only the richest players could profit.
not so much the ppl who buy plex from ccp, cause that would cost to much real money.
still, i think too, that this is a bad idea.
Atomic Virulent : "You can't spell DOUCHE. without CODE."
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Mr RiXter
Unsettled
Unsettled.
21
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Posted - 2015.10.18 09:35:39 -
[43] - Quote
Nope it's actually a great idea. |
The Power Broker
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:08:23 -
[44] - Quote
Another example of the vocal few having a tantrum over something that will assist with keeping new players and possibly bringing more people into the game (like Incana).
If I'm led to believe the numbers are tanking for logins then why wouldn't CCP try and help new player retention?
It has the possibility of reducing PLEX prices..... Check
It will help new players try more things instead of missions..... Check
It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check
Obviously these are all if's and maybe's but looking at it to me it will mean, I get to afford to PLEX my account, I get more people to either team up with or shoot at with my main and numbers of players will go making CCP more money.
What negative impact does this have on me? None, my main has 80 million sp and I fly the ships I like and want to, which is the main thing isn't it? |
Sam Knob
School Of Applied Pew
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:30:04 -
[45] - Quote
I really like the idea although I will have to disagree with some of the reasons other people have mentioned.
Pros:
- It creates an incentive to be active in the game. Say you are working on an important 20 day skill. Instead of just leaving the game for 20 days (because you probably feel like nothing much can be done during those 20 days) you can actively work towards the completion of that skill since earning ISK will allow you to finish it quicker.
- Corps will able to boost their noobs towards the minimum requirements of some fleets, which means they will see content much quicker and immediately become active in the corp.
- Newer players in general are more likely to stay in the game since they can actively work towards their goals. Investing time AND effort into a character makes you less likely to abandon the game imo.
Cons:
- This will (and I am looking at you The Power Broker) much more likely boost PLEX inflation because people will probably see it as a way to finance alts.
Overall I think it will lead to a more active community. |
Higgs Foton
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
192
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Posted - 2015.10.18 10:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
I like these changes. Seems to me selling and buying skillpoints is a good way. Many times i was angered by the lack of progress if i started a new char. This has now become obsolete at a small price. I think its a good thing and it will greatly benefit the benevolent forces of the IMPERIVUM. |
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
444
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 10:55:40 -
[47] - Quote
Why protest against something that has existed for who knows how many years now but which comes in a new and better shape?
Again, all these whiners who think that they are entitled to whine for the sake of whining should just go and biomass themselves already before they kill EVE entirely. The game needs to evolve. Badly. Whining bittervet dinosaurs should just do what dinosaurs are good at - go extinct. |
The Power Broker
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 11:42:22 -
[48] - Quote
Sam Knob wrote:I really like the idea although I will have to disagree with some of the reasons other people have mentioned.
Cons:
- This will (and I am looking at you The Power Broker) much more likely boost PLEX inflation because people will probably see it as a way to finance alts.
Fair point, but I was clear that it's all if's and maybe's as if I could predict the price of PLEX I would be a trillionaire... and I'm not !
I've seen people mention that they will be putting more PLEX into the market to buy Aurum (which will lower the price) and I've seen people say exactly what you said above so maybe it might just stay the same, meh!
However I think it might be safe to say that we (and many other people here) agree this will be a good thing!
Now lets riot against no release date on those Hello Kitty skins!!!! RRRRAAWWWRR |
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
479
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 12:21:14 -
[49] - Quote
Top Guac wrote:Lol. Protest by logging in and playing the game.
That's not the way to protest.
If you are serious about protesting and want to send a real message to CCP, then the only way to protest is to back up your words by unsubscribing all accounts and not logging in.
Maybe keep one account active to keep your main training, but don't log in.
That's the only way to send CCP a clear, simple message that you don't agree with their direction. Tell them and then back that up with action that produces much more meaningful statistics.
I have done just that.
I QUIT DURING INCARNIA. QUIT. SPACEBARBIES AND GREED IS GOOD CAN GO TO HELL FOR REAL.
I set a long skill queue with several cruiser 5s and some other good 5s.
SEE YOU IN A WHILE CCP IF YOU EVER GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES.
ILL BE FREAKING PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS FOR THE TWITCH-PVP-NO-1-SEC-SERVER-TICK-TWOTCHY PVP
GOT 5MONTHS LEFT ON SUB. ILL PLAY WARSHIPS TIL XMAS THEN CHECK BACK TO SEE HOW PAY2WIN HAS RUINED GAME
AND IM SICK OF YOU CODDLING CAREBEARS AND NERFING CONTENT CREATORS.
(DO NOT WORRY EVE-O JUST CUZ PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS AND SKILLQUEUE ONLINE I WILL STILL LONG IN TO POST ON FORUMS) |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
101
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:37:40 -
[50] - Quote
The Power Broker wrote:
It has the possibility of reducing PLEX prices..... Check
or inflating them further, unless you can reliably predict whether people will pay with more farmed isk or bought plex it's impossible to say
Quote:It will help new players try more things instead of missions..... Check Really ? Having more Skillpoints instantly will change hisec bears playstyle where having more skillpoints over time has failed to do so ?
Quote:It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check It may keep players away when it gets around that in EvE, not only do you need to pay a subscription up front, but you need to buy X quantity of skillpoints for X amount of RL cash before you can do anything worthwhile. This will be the new perception of many new players if this goes live. So much for the NPE.
Quote:Obviously these are all if's and maybe's You're not kidding. 
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Tronity Neutronux
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.10.18 12:49:22 -
[51] - Quote
This SP change just does not matter at all. It's still skill -> nerf -> buff -> nerf -> buff -> repeat. It does not matter that much what you skill today the chance is good that it would be "rebalanced" if it's cool somewhat later again anyway. "Rebalancing" stuff in circle (anybody remembers the old Hurricane or old Drake) is no new content and this SP-injections is no new content either. Now you could just add some tiny "inject tiny SP by Plex" to this loop. Oh noes! Everybody was already able to get way more SP by buying another char right now. |
Robert Sawyer
The Vendunari
End of Life
75
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Posted - 2015.10.18 13:39:49 -
[52] - Quote
I read about it but I don't get what's so bad about it - anybody mind explaining?
"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."
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The Power Broker
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:08:40 -
[53] - Quote
Robert Sawyer wrote:I read about it but I don't get what's so bad about it - anybody mind explaining?
Edit: Ewww, just found out that you can buy SP with Aurum AKA RL money - CCP DO NOT DO THIS.
Just like you can do already with buying PLEX and then purchasing a character in the Bazaar ? |
Lykouleon
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
1655
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:10:35 -
[54] - Quote
Ya'll need to calm the **** down.
Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
|
Tronity Neutronux
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:15:44 -
[55] - Quote
Robert Sawyer wrote:Ewww, just found out that you can buy SP with Aurum AKA RL money - CCP DO NOT DO THIS.
You are a bit late mate. SP for RL money worked already for years now and is called: Character bazaar. There is so much nerfing and buffing all the time anyway. Skill something that's OP, abuse it until it gets under the nerf hammer, skill something other. Does this matter at all? Catalyst + Mining barge worked years ago and still works. Does this SP injection change anything? Would this decrease content, would this change the donuts in the game? If this flush some fresh Plex into the market I appreciate this. Is there anything serious new to the game?
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4186
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:23:21 -
[56] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:The Power Broker wrote:It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check It may keep players away when it gets around that in EvE, not only do you need to pay a subscription up front, but you need to buy X quantity of skillpoints for X amount of RL cash before you can do anything worthwhile. This will be the new perception of many new players if this goes live. So much for the NPE. How about this message for new players:
SP are quite useful, but not that important. Don't get all excited about SP and take your time. Because if you're willing to progress slower than usual, after the first 2 months you can play for free for just a couple 100 million ISK a month. Go shoot people in Faction Warfare!
Because one of the possibilities of the new system will be trading SP for ISK for PLEX...
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9303
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:34:07 -
[57] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
(DO NOT WORRY EVE-O JUST CUZ PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS AND SKILLQUEUE ONLINE I WILL STILL LONG IN TO POST ON FORUMS)
THANK GOD FOR SMALL MIRACLES
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:38:14 -
[58] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:The Power Broker wrote:It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check It may keep players away when it gets around that in EvE, not only do you need to pay a subscription up front, but you need to buy X quantity of skillpoints for X amount of RL cash before you can do anything worthwhile. This will be the new perception of many new players if this goes live. So much for the NPE. How about this message for new players: SP are quite useful, but not that important. Don't get all excited about SP and take your time. Because if you're willing to progress slower than usual, after the first 2 months you can play for free for just a couple 100 million ISK a month. Go shoot people in Faction Warfare!Because one of the possibilities of the new system will be trading SP for ISK for PLEX... Yes, after 5M SP newbros can sell SP too.
I'm all for education but if this drama has highlighted anything it's that the idea of skillpoint gap isn't going away and if CCP are going to try to tackle it there are better ways than selling SPs.
|
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
447
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:38:31 -
[59] - Quote
Does anyone actually read the dev blogs? Cus judging from some replies i would say probably not. It also reduces the skill points in the game, every "transaction" not only costs isk, but depletes total skill points. In fact outside fairly young characters it is just not much help at all.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
108
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:39:19 -
[60] - Quote
The Power Broker wrote:Robert Sawyer wrote:I read about it but I don't get what's so bad about it - anybody mind explaining?
Edit: Ewww, just found out that you can buy SP with Aurum AKA RL money - CCP DO NOT DO THIS. Just like you can do already with buying PLEX and then purchasing a character in the Bazaar ?
Really, I can inject those SPs into this character ? I had no idea 
|
|
|
Mag's
the united
20557
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:46:09 -
[61] - Quote
The Power Broker wrote:Another example of the vocal few having a tantrum over something that will assist with keeping new players and possibly bringing more people into the game (like Incana). So you're saying this change, will be the great success Incarna was?
Destination SkillQueue:-
It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
|
Mia Snow
TurboBrioche
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:46:18 -
[62] - Quote
...
Can i haz....
Your skilpoint? |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 14:59:10 -
[63] - Quote
Freelancer117 wrote:Power to the Costumers, Vote with your Wallet Quote:There is only one boss. The customer. And he can fire everybody in the company from the chairman on down, simply by spending his money somewhere else.
Sam Walton source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Walton
They say: The customer is king.
If you ever had to deal with customers you know that it's partly true: customers can be royal a-holes.
The thing is you properly escalate before you go nuclear. Usually you start with discussing and bringing well thought out arguments to the table.
Rioting or quitting should be a last resort.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Erin Crawford
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:03:28 -
[64] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I think the proposed change is a good idea. I would think otherwise if the character bazaar were not already a thing. But it is, so bring it on.
Exactly!
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
Erin Crawford
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:04:48 -
[65] - Quote
Leonardo Adami wrote:This is dumb, the proposal is amazing and I hope they go through with it cause it's long overdue. People who stifle progress or attempt to like yourself are a large portion of what's wrong with this game.
Yup.
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
Dan Seavey Allier
Seavy Acquisitions
61
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:40:48 -
[66] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Top Guac wrote:Lol. Protest by logging in and playing the game.
That's not the way to protest.
If you are serious about protesting and want to send a real message to CCP, then the only way to protest is to back up your words by unsubscribing all accounts and not logging in.
Maybe keep one account active to keep your main training, but don't log in.
That's the only way to send CCP a clear, simple message that you don't agree with their direction. Tell them and then back that up with action that produces much more meaningful statistics. I have done just that. I QUIT DURING INCARNIA. QUIT. SPACEBARBIES AND GREED IS GOOD CAN GO TO HELL FOR REAL. I set a long skill queue with several cruiser 5s and some other good 5s. SEE YOU IN A WHILE CCP IF YOU EVER GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES. ILL BE FREAKING PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS FOR THE TWITCH-PVP-NO-1-SEC-SERVER-TICK-TWOTCHY PVP GOT 5MONTHS LEFT ON SUB. ILL PLAY WARSHIPS TIL XMAS THEN CHECK BACK TO SEE HOW PAY2WIN HAS RUINED GAME AND IM SICK OF YOU CODDLING CAREBEARS AND NERFING CONTENT CREATORS. (DO NOT WORRY EVE-O JUST CUZ PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS AND SKILLQUEUE ONLINE I WILL STILL LONG IN TO POST ON FORUMS)
Funny.
Instead of ramming a feature down our throats (Like Incarna) CCP is:
1) Putting a concept. (Read this word again: CONCEPT) on the table.
2) Asking for feedback on the concept, and ideas on how to flesh it out before implementation.
But out of habit, some of you just can't stop yourselves from flipping your shtz.
You know what would be a great feature to cram down our throats?
You need a paid sub to post.
It would be a nice way to cull the forums of the arm chair quarterbacking trolls who whine about a game they don't even play anymore.
Eve is a game designed to thwart pay to win.
I know,
god knows I've tried.
10 million skill points in drones, missiles or gunnery is not going to make you a better PVP pilot.
it's going to make you kill mail fodder. Unless...................you are a seasoned vet and want a change of character skills.
Y'know.....LIKE A SERVICE THE CHARACTER BAZAAR ALREADY OFFERS.
Getting upset over this proposal is a great gauge for your reading comprehension.
Now point on the doll where the bad CCP touched you, CAM.
Dan
Honey Never Sleeps.
|
armymp327
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:46:42 -
[67] - Quote
I think this new skillpoint idea is a great idea and good start to bringing new players or old players back to the game |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:57:16 -
[68] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Portmanteau wrote:The Power Broker wrote:It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check It may keep players away when it gets around that in EvE, not only do you need to pay a subscription up front, but you need to buy X quantity of skillpoints for X amount of RL cash before you can do anything worthwhile. This will be the new perception of many new players if this goes live. So much for the NPE. How about this message for new players: SP are quite useful, but not that important. Don't get all excited about SP and take your time. Because if you're willing to progress slower than usual, after the first 2 months you can play for free for just a couple 100 million ISK a month. Go shoot people in Faction Warfare!Because one of the possibilities of the new system will be trading SP for ISK for PLEX... Yes, after 5M SP newbros can sell SP too.
What Portmanteau is getting to is that some outsiders / new players already have this false notion that they are competing solely on the SP and ISK level with older players. They think that they can buy the ISK, but will alway stay 12 years worth of skilltraining behind the highest SP characters.
They don't know or don't accept that the competition as far as SP go is always only within a certain number of skills which all are hard-capped at level 5.
So far PLEX and the character bazaar exist, to allow players who want to spend real money to increase SP and ISK to do so. The character bazaar is not very easy to use and thereby limits the number of players using it.
The proposed changes are good as far as making it easieer to obtain SP without the downsides of the character bazaar.
The question is, how will it affect the perception about EvE in the general public ?
We already deal with perceptions such as "I would play EvE if you didn't have to be online every day" or "EvE is just spreadsheets in space".
We also know that many corps have minimum SP requirements.
I think it is not completely impossible that new players will get the feeling of having to procure ISK and SP in the fastest way possible (spending real money) right off the bat. If that happens we might have to deal with EvE getting a pay2win stigma on top.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
10087
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 15:58:15 -
[69] - Quote
armymp327 wrote:I think this new skillpoint idea is a great idea and good start to bringing new players or old players back to the game
You are overrating this.
We will see only threads where new players will be complaining on the prices of skillpoints.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Carrie-Anne Moss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
481
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:00:49 -
[70] - Quote
Dan Seavey Allier wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Top Guac wrote:Lol. Protest by logging in and playing the game.
That's not the way to protest.
If you are serious about protesting and want to send a real message to CCP, then the only way to protest is to back up your words by unsubscribing all accounts and not logging in.
Maybe keep one account active to keep your main training, but don't log in.
That's the only way to send CCP a clear, simple message that you don't agree with their direction. Tell them and then back that up with action that produces much more meaningful statistics. I have done just that. I QUIT DURING INCARNIA. QUIT. SPACEBARBIES AND GREED IS GOOD CAN GO TO HELL FOR REAL. I set a long skill queue with several cruiser 5s and some other good 5s. SEE YOU IN A WHILE CCP IF YOU EVER GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES. ILL BE FREAKING PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS FOR THE TWITCH-PVP-NO-1-SEC-SERVER-TICK-TWOTCHY PVP GOT 5MONTHS LEFT ON SUB. ILL PLAY WARSHIPS TIL XMAS THEN CHECK BACK TO SEE HOW PAY2WIN HAS RUINED GAME AND IM SICK OF YOU CODDLING CAREBEARS AND NERFING CONTENT CREATORS. (DO NOT WORRY EVE-O JUST CUZ PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS AND SKILLQUEUE ONLINE I WILL STILL LONG IN TO POST ON FORUMS) Funny. Instead of ramming a feature down our throats (Like Incarna) CCP is: 1) Putting a concept. (Read this word again: CONCEPT) on the table. 2) Asking for feedback on the concept, and ideas on how to flesh it out before implementation. But out of habit, some of you just can't stop yourselves from flipping your shtz. You know what would be a great feature to cram down our throats? You need a paid sub to post. It would be a nice way to cull the forums of the arm chair quarterbacking trolls who whine about a game they don't even play anymore. Eve is a game designed to thwart pay to win. I know, god knows I've tried. 10 million skill points in drones, missiles or gunnery is not going to make you a better PVP pilot. it's going to make you kill mail fodder. Unless...................you are a seasoned vet and want a change of character skills. Y'know.....LIKE A SERVICE THE CHARACTER BAZAAR ALREADY OFFERS. Getting upset over this proposal is a great gauge for your reading comprehension. Now point on the doll where the bad CCP touched you, CAM. Dan
Hey ignorant.
You DO NEED an active sub to post of forums (eelse you stuck posting in New Citizens)
Ccp Rise even stated the difference pf Bazarr and SP buying in original devblog and pointed out 2 main differences mr. Ignorant.
And i hate the character bazarr lol
I bet if it never existed and ccp tried to inplement it today without ever exosting, We WOULD RAGE
And ccp touched me in a bad way in the following places (plus others cant be bothered to list all)
INCARNIA
WORLD OF DARKNESS VAMP MMO
DUST514 PS3 ONLY
LEGION
CANFLIPPING NERF
AWOX REMOVAL SWOTCH
MINING BARGE EHP BUFF
GANK NERF AFTER GANK NERF
INSURANCE REMOVAL FOR GANKS
CRIMEWATCH
BASICALLY DELETING NINJA SALVAGING AS VIABLE CAREER FOR NOOBS
VIRYUAL REALITLY
HIMLIAR
THOUSAND DOLLAR JEANS
2 THOUSAND DPLLAR MAGNEY NYXES
HINLAIR
GREED IS GOOD
GREED IS GOOD
Edit: ccp "asked for feedback" to csm and basically all said HELL NO ARE YOU STUPID?
We gave them feedback from failfozzoesov... took over 6months and still aont fixed.
You are a lemming and ignorant and niave, ccp dont want/listen to feedback until its been almost half a year-an entire year of rage |
|
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:03:13 -
[71] - Quote
Dan Seavey Allier wrote:
You know what would be a great feature to cram down our throats?
You need a paid sub to post.
It would be a nice way to cull the forums of the arm chair quarterbacking trolls who whine about a game they don't even play anymore.
Dan
That's already a thing. Can't post without a paid sub.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
110
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:10:15 -
[72] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Dan Seavey Allier wrote:Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:Top Guac wrote:Lol. Protest by logging in and playing the game.
That's not the way to protest.
If you are serious about protesting and want to send a real message to CCP, then the only way to protest is to back up your words by unsubscribing all accounts and not logging in.
Maybe keep one account active to keep your main training, but don't log in.
That's the only way to send CCP a clear, simple message that you don't agree with their direction. Tell them and then back that up with action that produces much more meaningful statistics. I have done just that. I QUIT DURING INCARNIA. QUIT. SPACEBARBIES AND GREED IS GOOD CAN GO TO HELL FOR REAL. I set a long skill queue with several cruiser 5s and some other good 5s. SEE YOU IN A WHILE CCP IF YOU EVER GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASSES. ILL BE FREAKING PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS FOR THE TWITCH-PVP-NO-1-SEC-SERVER-TICK-TWOTCHY PVP GOT 5MONTHS LEFT ON SUB. ILL PLAY WARSHIPS TIL XMAS THEN CHECK BACK TO SEE HOW PAY2WIN HAS RUINED GAME AND IM SICK OF YOU CODDLING CAREBEARS AND NERFING CONTENT CREATORS. (DO NOT WORRY EVE-O JUST CUZ PLAYING WORLD OF WARSHIPS AND SKILLQUEUE ONLINE I WILL STILL LONG IN TO POST ON FORUMS) Funny. Instead of ramming a feature down our throats (Like Incarna) CCP is: 1) Putting a concept. (Read this word again: CONCEPT) on the table. 2) Asking for feedback on the concept, and ideas on how to flesh it out before implementation. But out of habit, some of you just can't stop yourselves from flipping your shtz. You know what would be a great feature to cram down our throats? You need a paid sub to post. It would be a nice way to cull the forums of the arm chair quarterbacking trolls who whine about a game they don't even play anymore. Eve is a game designed to thwart pay to win. I know, god knows I've tried. 10 million skill points in drones, missiles or gunnery is not going to make you a better PVP pilot. it's going to make you kill mail fodder. Unless...................you are a seasoned vet and want a change of character skills. Y'know.....LIKE A SERVICE THE CHARACTER BAZAAR ALREADY OFFERS. Getting upset over this proposal is a great gauge for your reading comprehension. Now point on the doll where the bad CCP touched you, CAM. Dan Hey ignorant. You DO NEED an active sub to post of forums (eelse you stuck posting in New Citizens) Ccp Rise even stated the difference pf Bazarr and SP buying in original devblog and pointed out 2 main differences mr. Ignorant. And i hate the character bazarr lol I bet if it never existed and ccp tried to inplement it today without ever exosting, We WOULD RAGE And ccp touched me in a bad way in the following places (plus others cant be bothered to list all) INCARNIA WORLD OF DARKNESS VAMP MMO DUST514 PS3 ONLY LEGION CANFLIPPING NERF AWOX REMOVAL SWOTCH MINING BARGE EHP BUFF GANK NERF AFTER GANK NERF INSURANCE REMOVAL FOR GANKS CRIMEWATCH BASICALLY DELETING NINJA SALVAGING AS VIABLE CAREER FOR NOOBS VIRYUAL REALITLY HIMLIAR THOUSAND DOLLAR JEANS 2 THOUSAND DPLLAR MAGNEY NYXES HINLAIR GREED IS GOOD GREED IS GOOD Edit: ccp "asked for feedback" to csm and basically all said HELL NO ARE YOU STUPID? We gave them feedback from failfozzoesov... took over 6months and still aont fixed. You are a lemming and ignorant and niave, ccp dont want/listen to feedback until its been almost half a year-an entire year of rage
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
420
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:21:45 -
[73] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
And ccp touched me in a bad way in the following places (plus others cant be bothered to list all)
INCARNIA
WORLD OF DARKNESS VAMP MMO
DUST514 PS3 ONLY
LEGION
CANFLIPPING NERF
AWOX REMOVAL SWOTCH
MINING BARGE EHP BUFF
GANK NERF AFTER GANK NERF
INSURANCE REMOVAL FOR GANKS
CRIMEWATCH
BASICALLY DELETING NINJA SALVAGING AS VIABLE CAREER FOR NOOBS
VIRYUAL REALITLY
HIMLIAR
THOUSAND DOLLAR JEANS
2 THOUSAND DPLLAR MAGNEY NYXES
HINLAIR
GREED IS GOOD
GREED IS GOOD
Edit: ccp "asked for feedback" to csm and basically all said HELL NO ARE YOU STUPID?
We gave them feedback from failfozzoesov... took over 6months and still aont fixed.
You are a lemming and ignorant and niave, ccp dont want/listen to feedback until its been almost half a year-an entire year of rage
Dear CAM,
word of advice, from one professional troll to another.
There are two types of trolls:
- trolls who seek to antagonize or rile up an entire community to feel better about themselves or at least entertain themselves
- trolls who, while using a similar toolset, are looking to entertain parts of the community while antagonising a minority that is already disliked by the community or by actually being witty without the need to antagonize.
If you wish to convey reasonable arguments to the community at large, you shouldn't intersperse your posts with comments that clearly aim for the first type of trolling.
You should also avoid to be known as sh--poster, because that decreases the number of people taking you seriously.
Either separate your smart posts from your trolling posts or limit the trolling to witty comments that aim at getting a chuckle.
Yours sincerely,
Jill.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Erin Crawford
489
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 16:53:34 -
[74] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
And i hate the character bazarr lol
I bet if it never existed and ccp tried to inplement it today without ever exosting, We WOULD RAGE
And yet the character bazaar exists and you have so far continued to play!
You know what? This is what will happen in the not so distant future - some new troll called Moss-Anne Carrie will post some rubbish like:
Quote:
And i hate skill trading lol
I bet if it never existed and ccp tried to inplement it today without ever exosting, We WOULD RAGE
And yet skill trading would then have excited for some time and players would have adapted and continue to play...
etc,..
"Those who talk donGÇÖt know. Those who know donGÇÖt talk. "
|
Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
10089
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:00:42 -
[75] - Quote
Its Hilmar.
Your post qualifies to be removed.
Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
|
Epic Name
The Scope
Gallente Federation
141
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:06:25 -
[76] - Quote
Can't wait for this new feature it will be good for the game |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5671
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:07:47 -
[77] - Quote
I've made my position clear on this elsewhere.
However, That said, fairness demands that I do clear something up:
CCP did talk with the CSM about this, before all of you saw this. The posting of the devblog didn't blind side us about it.
I won't say 'The CSM is against this'. Because if you go looking, a negative reaction isn't unanimous. But some of us did react negatively, and told CCP that we thought it was a bad idea. And then, because we went with the adult reaction, we didn't throw our toys out the pram and refuse to talk further. 'This is a bad idea. This is how you make it a less bad idea. But it's still a bad idea'.
Discuss doesn't equal 'give a veto to'.
To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. Yes, people could always go and buy a character off the Bazaar. But their connection to a character like that is less. Also, it's a significantly higher outlay, so it's not a 'normal' option for people to take. With a lower initial cost, the pressure is higher. And I think that's a bad idea.
(Will it kill Eve? Nope. I just don't think it'll be good for it)
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
|
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4191
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:43:08 -
[78] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. This I don't really understand, Steve.
Experienced players will buy SP only if they need it (for a specific purpose) and sell the SP they don't need.
Newer players will know that the option exists, and that it's relatively expensive. The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'.
Or something along those lines.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 17:44:10 -
[79] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:I've made my position clear on this elsewhere.
However, That said, fairness demands that I do clear something up:
CCP did talk with the CSM about this, before all of you saw this. The posting of the devblog didn't blind side us about it.
I won't say 'The CSM is against this'. Because if you go looking, a negative reaction isn't unanimous. But some of us did react negatively, and told CCP that we thought it was a bad idea. And then, because we went with the adult reaction, we didn't throw our toys out the pram and refuse to talk further. 'This is a bad idea. This is how you make it a less bad idea. But it's still a bad idea'.
Discuss doesn't equal 'give a veto to'.
To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. Yes, people could always go and buy a character off the Bazaar. But their connection to a character like that is less. Also, it's a significantly higher outlay, so it's not a 'normal' option for people to take. With a lower initial cost, the pressure is higher. And I think that's a bad idea.
(Will it kill Eve? Nope. I just don't think it'll be good for it)
I suppose the million dollar question is if CCP can afford to miss the opportunity cost of so much money if they go without these skill packets. |
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
703
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:38:40 -
[80] - Quote
I think we should campaign a movement that states:
Any CSM who did not openly support this change is not worthy of being re-elected ever again.
Can't have CSMs who are so out of touch with reality that they'll let eve die so they can preserve their own self serving advantages such as skill points. |
|
|
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5673
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 18:57:59 -
[81] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. This I don't really understand, Steve. Experienced players will buy SP only if they need it (for a specific purpose) and sell the SP they don't need. Newer players will know that the option exists, and that it's relatively expensive. The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'. Or something along those lines.
'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4195
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:02:48 -
[82] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. This I don't really understand, Steve. Experienced players will buy SP only if they need it (for a specific purpose) and sell the SP they don't need. Newer players will know that the option exists, and that it's relatively expensive. The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'. Or something along those lines. 'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about I see your point, but the answer 'roughly as much as the others paid to accumulate those SP in the first place' would feel reasonable, no? And some of us are playing with numbers/predictions, it could even cost a bit less...
And aren't we all always trying to make newbros understand that 'catching up' isn't very important after all?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Harry Forever
SpaceJunkys
1289
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:17:27 -
[83] - Quote
aww the drama, ccp does not do what I want... you pussy
Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
115
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 19:29:02 -
[84] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:
'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about
That's my main issue with it too, couldn't give a toss about other players should go through what I did blah blah, it's the new guys feeling fleeced by CCP that concerns me.
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Amber Starview
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
22
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Posted - 2015.10.18 20:10:48 -
[85] - Quote
Nobody will feel fleeced and this is a good thing for ccp to be raising income in tough times ,even though I'm not sold on the way sp is being sold I shall wait and see and shall be not "rioting" but gl =ƒÿü |
Otso Bakarti
Filial Pariahs
365
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 20:53:18 -
[86] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:If you are looking for support in this endeavor, I'm afraid it won't be coming from me. Mr Epeen Well said... He always saids well.
Ibid.
Fear of death follows from fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. -Mark Twain -
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Wendrika Hydreiga
529
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 21:27:37 -
[87] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about
A parallel could be made with what we have currently:
'They expect me to wait for how long to catch up?'
The common consensus for people that have this reaction often boils down to HTFU. And that's terrible.
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
449
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:33:52 -
[88] - Quote
Wendrika Hydreiga wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about A parallel could be made with what we have currently: 'They expect me to wait for how long to catch up?' The common consensus for people that have this reaction often boils down to HTFU. And that's terrible.
So you should start imedialty with 100M skill points cus someone has that many. What about isk. I mean some people have billions of isk. should new accounts start with billions.
If you keep following this logic all the way, you get a very boring game indeed. One where nothing is special and nothing matters because everyone has everything.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1274
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:40:08 -
[89] - Quote
I have removed a rant/troll/off-topic post and those quoting them.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.
ISD Decoy
Captain
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
705
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:41:38 -
[90] - Quote
Thanks |
|
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Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
349
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 22:43:08 -
[91] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. This I don't really understand, Steve. Experienced players will buy SP only if they need it (for a specific purpose) and sell the SP they don't need. Newer players will know that the option exists, and that it's relatively expensive. The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'. Or something along those lines. 'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about
Is that any different from the current "They want 20 million SP minimum to join their Corp and those characters are how much on the bazaar?" |
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
26
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:35:30 -
[92] - Quote
I am on the fence on this, I can see the possibility for it to be good but also see dangers why it would backfire.
The possibilities:
Making it easier for new players to "catch up" (imaginary or real) is a big issue for the new players I assume (it was for me in 2003 seeing that some players had a couple of month on me). To make new players more employable and enable them to do more things in a shorter duration is a great idea (no one enjoys waiting for core skills so you can fit a gun on a ship).
So this could make players stick around longer because they can actually enjoy more parts of the game quicker and find their spot in the eve universe. Also ever wanted to fly this faction ship that needs a race you haven't trained yet - go for it now you can.
The danger:
Consider this: The month you spend training a skill mean that when you are a perfect pilot you know the mechanics and rules of whatever you want to do with your new shiny. I am fearful that this change will make EVE even more a quick rush for short term residence. Buy a skill pack buy some Plex - have billions and fully trained char. Die endlessly because eve is complex and takes time to learn - leave with a bitter taste since you paid real money and didn't get the rush you wanted. Write negative things about eve being expensive and not worth it move on to World of Spaceships.
The problem with these and other recent changes are that they seem to be rushed to fix a problem and not implemented to fine tune a system or even fit into the overall philosophy/lore.
Character Bazaar was brought in to give people a legal way to swap chars (since the dawn of eve it happened anyway). They brought in PLEX to combat RMTs - now people sell PLEX for real cash (the irony) and people leave eve because PLEX prices are too high so they can't play "for free".
I really hate everything to do with micro transactions and p2w and I guess CCP sees the potential earnings and wants to be part of the money printing machines by making eve approachable by these player demographics. I cannot fault them for trying to get more players into eve and make money to keep eve running, although I find it personally distasteful.
CCP Falcon posted that EVE it is a harsh dangerous cold environment , I honestly don't feel it anymore. Most achievements I set out to accomplish mean nothing anymore. Risk vs Reward is heavily in the reward area at the moment. What took you month to accumulate years ago takes you hours now.
The proposed change would make EVE even "easier" in a way and gets players less invested . It turns it from a long term hobby into a FPS - just one you suck at even if you pay real cash to level up.
So make eve more difficult and less complex and balance the risk again .
tl:dr
good idea : to keep newer players interested and enable them to "catch up".
bad idea : might breed a FPS like culture, might be abused, makes it more p2w.
rant:
Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back .
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Marsha Mallow
2648
|
Posted - 2015.10.18 23:39:58 -
[93] - Quote
Raffael Ramirez wrote:Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back .
Could you expand on that a bit, out of interest? I think it probably is on topic.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
705
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:00:02 -
[94] - Quote
Who cares? The meta-game is already so heavily dependent on alts that we're deep into P2W territory and you already have wealthy vets cycling through toons via the character bazaar. Might as well make it official.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
134
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:32:32 -
[95] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'.
Or something along those lines.
and yet when many ppl have raised that very point as an objection to skillpoint buying (not me) it has been roundly put down as a poor basis for not developing the game. So clearly there are already many people who don't fit into the above description. Like it or not, some new guys will make use of this and the ones who don't *might* feel pressured to follow suit or feel left behind, THAT is the potential issue here. |
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
27
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 00:50:42 -
[96] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Raffael Ramirez wrote:Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back . Could you expand on that a bit, out of interest? I think it probably is on topic.
I thought about it and it is really a million little things that contribute to that feelings , I think the easiest way to convey it is to tell you a rundown of a normal day in the harsh cold eve.
There are only frigs cruisers and battleships, by the time you had the cash to afford one you had the skills to fly one.
Only Empire and 0.0 space existed and when you wanted to earn money you had to go low sec or 0.0. , high sec only kept you barely afloat since mining yields were laughable and agent mission rewards non existent (except the implants).
I ran agent missions , every 10th mission would give you an implant which you had to sell in the trade channel to be able to afford a cruiser hull (that was a big deal back then).
So you had a cruiser to earn cash and another one to do things (I ratted in low sec/corp activities), anyway getting blown up was basically a daily occurrence (some bugs, mostly players). We had a blackbird bpo and we sold it to the resident pirates at lower prices for blue standing (very much in line with the lore). Blue standing back then only meant that the frequency of them blowing you up slightly decreases but that was life (you really can't rely on pirates *shakes fist at Lilan Kahn*).
As a corp we had to mine minerals to keep production going that meant all hands on deck mining (in blackbirds/moas and a geddon) for hours. If anyone wanted a battleship we had to mine for weeks to get the low ends and then go ninja mining in 0.0 space to get mega and zydrine. So back then that was 8 j into 0.0 space with cruisers and a hauler past 2 gate camps (no bubbles then) multiple times (hauling ore was really inefficient).
So in the end you had to give the gate campers some share or you could only go when your 'friendly' pirates were camping.
The whole ops usually destroyed a couple of cruisers (Rats were nasty/gate camps) but you had enough to build a battleship.
So as you see said battleship was a corp effort and it was worth more than just minerals , we all pitched in (there was a point in joining a corp!)
When the corp lost a ship , we all suffered, so we played smart and learned every time we were blown up. (still was frustrating , and you wouldn't log in for a week ,then get back and start mining again)
This is how I started playing eve and if you compare it to now , it lost most of its cold harsh feeling. When you undocked you basically assumed you wouldn't come back therefore you never flew a ship you couldn't afford to loose.
Anyway now you sell 2 plex to start off with and buy all the fancy ships you want , soon you will be able to fly them from day 1 and the whole learning process of what it is eve will be gone. The complete disconnection from the "work" you have to put in to own something in this game only contributes to the general feeling that PvP is something that happens to other ppl and its basically an exploit that has to be fixed. Back then we had players actually enjoying missions and mining (money and efficiency not even close to what it is now) but they knew the rules an watched local. You had wars in empire which were fought because corps stood for something (now everybody hops around or decs random ppl).
There were arch enemies like : pirates vs Celestial Apoc. and Mo0 vs everybody which made for good stories even though the numbers of players actually involved was so very low.
So yeah cannot really convey a feeling , but I hope I was able to explain some things that changed drastically.
Eve got infinitely more complex but overall a lot easier, i personally think it is the wrong way around.
For completions sake: EVE was a completely broken game back then full of half finished features and broken buttons and exploits. It was heavily on the risk side of things, bugs (or features as they called it) killed your ship as often as players would and GMs would never NEVER give you a ship back.
But I would say it was very close to CCP Falcons vision of eve, sadly most players will never have a chance to play it.
tl;dr
hard to get stuff , lots of work - frustrating when you lost it but at least you had some connection to your assets and learned from the loss.
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Marsha Mallow
2648
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 01:09:52 -
[97] - Quote
Thanks for writing that up 
I've heard similar before and it's awkward because parts of that sounds great. Some horrendous. The people who played that early iteration will always have that backstory where others might not, and I can understand them being concerned at it's removal. Also, it feels like Plex might have undermined the majority of that? So the SP thing is more of a relic rather than a lynchpin to the original core game - but it's one people remember the most because it was a frustrating mechanic and hasn't changed as much as everything else. Hard to separate them out but SP training both acts as a goal/reward scheme early on - which is a good thing. Except where it impedes gameplay so you're waiting for skills to complete to actually play.
Just zoning in on this:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:hard to get stuff , lots of work - frustrating when you lost it but at least you had some connection to your assets and learned from the loss
That sounds like something that should be heavily incorporated into the NPE in some way without being really punitive. Might be worth a think about how to put some of these aspects back in - because I agree they are essential, and they have clearly been lost at some point based upon the attitude of newer players towards accepting loss mechanics and objective based gameplay. Seems like the main goals now have shifted too far towards supers and kb stat epeen rather than narrative driven gameplay. This really is one for the vets to answer tbh, because that core principle has to be retained in some way, and I'm not sure later players grasp how harsh it was for early starters. Although it might be more a matter of injecting it back in using new methods, if that makes sense.
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: TO THE PITCHFORKMOBILE!
Benny Ohu wrote: fire up the argument calibrators set phasers to outraged overheat keyboards reinforce the thread
Jenn aSide wrote: does anyone have any assless chaps I could borrow?
|
Divine Entervention
Rational Chaos Inc.
Phoebe Freeport Republic
706
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:11:37 -
[98] - Quote
I need a list of all CSM's who've yet to openly endorse this new feature and a list of the one's who've openly spoke against it.
Thanks |
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
74
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:27:34 -
[99] - Quote
Somebody get a cross, some holy oil, a wooden stake, a few silver bullets, and maybe a priest, and just kill this stupid thread already. |
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI
The Old Guard.
10
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:41:42 -
[100] - Quote
the linear cap on sp should start falling off after 100m xp
the minimal amount drainable should be 5 mil sp instead of 500k |
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
7188
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 02:42:33 -
[101] - Quote
This idea does not have the air of being born out of desperation for more players.
I think that this is a progression of long skill ques and being able to run more than one que per account. And these are things that result in LESS account, but more $$ coming in to maintain them. So if there are less active accounts the income may still be static.
Players can move SP around alts too - something that's also good.
Looks like nothing more than flexibility moves. Time still goes into creating SP. So the time investment aspect is not being removed.
Bittervets can continue to be bitter and noobs can get a boost in training up against being instapwned.
Bring back DEEEEP Space!
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VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises
The Volition Cult
84
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Posted - 2015.10.19 06:38:20 -
[102] - Quote
the difference betweem the character bazare and what was PROPOSED is whag exactly? theyre both player controlled. its not ccp is selling skill points. Players are. I see nothing differnt going on here any differnt than whats been going on for years. its just more streamlined. |
Avanda Redblade
SL33P3R C3LL
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:40:36 -
[103] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:...but the answer 'roughly as much as the others paid to accumulate those SP in the first place' would feel reasonable, no? No.
When paying a month's game subscription I would say the main part is for the TIME played that month. That main part has been used up by the initial player. A smaller part could be considered towards SP investment. You could see this in the Character Bazaar where character sale prices tried to follow subs at 100% rate until it became obvious that they were not worth that much. The market settled at a much more sensible rate.
If the game picks up a lot though, and becomes the game to be seen in again, maybe the 100% will return?
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Mephiztopheleze
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
236
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 06:47:39 -
[104] - Quote
Can shooting monuments in HiSec please give Suspect Status?
So those of us who don't mind the whole tradeable SP idea can harvest a few more tears.....
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
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Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
66
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 07:41:02 -
[105] - Quote
Nope. If you bother to spend sometimes thinking about it - this change is good for EvE. May not be good for your ego, but good for EvE in general. Essentially, skills trading is about monetizing skills which players can already do (via Chararcter Bazaar) - except the threshold now is much lower. You don't have to be space-rich dudes with billions of ISK to do it; minimum ISK purchase in Character Bazaar is far higher vs SP trading. This will lower the barrier to entry for new players to start enjoying EvE. Hence may not be good for your space e-peen, but good for the game. Suck it up.
And if you plan to unsub - can I have your stuffs and SP? |
Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1683
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 10:17:28 -
[106] - Quote
im not allowed in highsec because people shoot me 
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9341
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Posted - 2015.10.19 17:18:26 -
[107] - Quote
Lan Wang wrote:im not allowed in highsec because people shoot me Go to Amarr anyway. Be a content creator for all the fearful dweebs that never leave that system, let alone high sec.
Who knows, you may actually convert some of them into PVPers if you paint a target on your back.
Take one for the team, Lan!
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
5458
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:48:49 -
[108] - Quote
Erm ...
Protesting the invitation for player feedback on an idea before making a change?
Does the OP want CCP to stop asking for player feedback?
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
708
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:50:28 -
[109] - Quote
Boom Boom Longtime wrote:
Dust - CCP trying to compete in a fps market that recycles iteself every year (doomed)
Vampires - Insert comment (Divert core input cash from main income souce being eve and divert cash resources from sustaining core poduct into vampies) (doomed)
People still play older FPS. According to CCP, the arenas for DUST were procedurally generated and scalable as hardware increased. Potential for some pretty nice battles. Was a good gamble I say? Just execution problems.
The second part, that is a necessity for any business. Eve was doing well, they thought they had a plan. There was a market that wasn't tapped into. A fairly good market I would think. yeah, eve needed more infrastructure, but that gets into planning and development direction which could have definitely gone better.
All about return of investment. They figured that dollar to new player, vampire game was more than if they did stuff for eve. Only CCP knows the business strategy. I think what they did was sound, but the product was flawed.
I think of this...
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
959
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 17:59:26 -
[110] - Quote
I have a few problems with this mechanic.
1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.
2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.
3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.
4) Eve is officially P2W.
5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks. |
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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
708
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:23:16 -
[111] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I have a few problems with this mechanic.
1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.
2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.
3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.
4) Eve is officially P2W.
5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks.
I really understand your concern. It was actually the first one that popped into my mind. I do not consider it P2W though. Talking like the equal of a week of training for a newb. This rate goes for up to a character two years old. After that, yes, it drops off. That keeps if from being a pay to win.
What will the costs be like? Currently, a person can instant buy a high pvp character off the bazaar. How much isk is the average price for one of these instant gratification toons plus a plex? How will it compare to a built character. In addition, the skill packets are created by sacrificing skill points. Some toon somewhere will be removing skills. Most likely bittervet alts who want isk. Though to get it, they need extractors that can only be used on toons a few months old preventing trial farming a fair bit.
I am a vet, there is no punishment here. My roles that I trained for, people already get by buying said character. This won't build power characters, but players doing well will just instead spend their isk to get that bump. Most likely to grab those last level V skills they don't want to wait for.
In the end, the vs wealthy, people won't notice. Those that more long term play to get their SP won't recognize the difference aside from seeing somebody newer with more SP. That doesn't change the fact that the supply is limited with players setting the cost of those items. Eventually, there will be a supply and demand equilibrium. Those that have nothing left to train for will sell off the unwanted SP once unused alts are farmed up. Somebody who wants to P2W won't be able to because I seriously doubt there will be the SP on the market to even make some 3 year equal toon.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2340
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:51:41 -
[112] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I have a few problems with this mechanic.
1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.
2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.
3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.
4) Eve is officially P2W.
5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks.
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
2) Everything is market driven. Why is this more of a problem than PLEX or Trit?
3) They can already do anything more than the elss wealthy so can you tell me where exactly the line is supposed to be drawn?
4) It's not P2W at all unless there is a threshold of SP you can by that make you will all the time garanteed.
5) How do you know some organisation won't be throwing that to fresh newbie to get them a bit more independant early in their capsuler career? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
960
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:52:28 -
[113] - Quote
Markus Reese wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:I have a few problems with this mechanic.
1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.
2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.
3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.
4) Eve is officially P2W.
5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks. I really understand your concern. It was actually the first one that popped into my mind. I do not consider it P2W though. Talking like the equal of a week of training for a newb. This rate goes for up to a character two years old. After that, yes, it drops off. That keeps if from being a pay to win. What will the costs be like? Currently, a person can instant buy a high pvp character off the bazaar. How much isk is the average price for one of these instant gratification toons plus a plex? How will it compare to a built character. In addition, the skill packets are created by sacrificing skill points. Some toon somewhere will be removing skills. Most likely bittervet alts who want isk. Though to get it, they need extractors that can only be used on toons a few months old preventing trial farming a fair bit. I am a vet, there is no punishment here. My roles that I trained for, people already get by buying said character. This won't build power characters, but players doing well will just instead spend their isk to get that bump. Most likely to grab those last level V skills they don't want to wait for. In the end, the vs wealthy, people won't notice. Those that more long term play to get their SP won't recognize the difference aside from seeing somebody newer with more SP. That doesn't change the fact that the supply is limited with players setting the cost of those items. Eventually, there will be a supply and demand equilibrium. Those that have nothing left to train for will sell off the unwanted SP once unused alts are farmed up. Somebody who wants to P2W won't be able to because I seriously doubt there will be the SP on the market to even make some 3 year equal toon.
People aren't going to sell alts anymore. I realize that's the intent, but instead, they're going to use the for SP farming.
Train 500k worth of SP, wipe it and sell, train 500k more.
So, we're literally going to have a bunch of SP farming characters.
Also, the pricing is likely going to be insane.
So, it costs a plex, plus however many days it takes to train 500k SP based on the value of PLEX (we'll say half a month so half the cost of a plex, plus whatever I feel my time is worth.
We're talking 2 billion isk for 500k SP. (based off example math).
Considering you need a plex to buy the extractor, we already know that the SP packets will cost AT LEAST that much.
So, how is 2 billion isk affordable for new players?
Again, I say this system is beneficial for vets creating new characters and serves little to no benefit for actual new players, unless they have a personal pocket book that is quite a bit more packed than my own.
Same for those vets rolling alt toons. The more money they have in their personal bank account, the more they can throw around in game developing characters with comparable skills to my own.
I have 65 mil in SP.
Someone with enough RL cash could literally match me in a day, provided they want to throw their money around.
Hey, while we're at it, WoW is going to be allowing players to boost a character to lvl 100 with their next expansion.
Why don't we allow players in Eve to boost a character to Carrier pilots? |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
960
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 18:56:33 -
[114] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
It's indirect punishment.
I spent however long building up my 65 mil SP.
As an example, it took trial, error, and time to be able to fly a Golem to the capabilities that I currently can.
Now, someone can take a brand new character and have them flying a Golem THAT day at the same level as me, but if I want to say, push all my BS skills to lvl 5 so that I can fly all the Marauders, I take a hit simply because I spent too long training skills.
How is that not punishment? |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2341
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:08:49 -
[115] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
It's indirect punishment. I spent however long building up my 65 mil SP. As an example, it took trial, error, and time to be able to fly a Golem to the capabilities that I currently can. Now, someone can take a brand new character and have them flying a Golem THAT day at the same level as me, but if I want to say, push all my BS skills to lvl 5 so that I can fly all the Marauders, I take a hit simply because I spent too long training skills. How is that not punishment?
Do you feel punished when a restaurant denies you the kid menu?
Do you feel punished when your ISP give the first 3 month at a lower rate to new costumer? |
Sam Knob
School Of Applied Pew
4
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:15:43 -
[116] - Quote
It's really sad to see people whining here about how CCP tries to screw the vets by letting people buy SP. These are probably the same people that constantly insult you ingame if you refuse to fight them and also the same people that won't get tired telling you that SP won't make you a better pilot (but their link alts and booster drugs will).
If SP truly didn't matter, then why consider EVE P2W?
The argument that this change possibly could drive away newer players if they keep dying to more experienced players is imo invalid. Just remember how much time it took you to undock for the first time with the intention to look for your first solo kill. Remember how much you learnt before even feeling ready for the task. I think by the time you feel ready you will know that SP and ships are only minor factors in the equation that gives you your chance of success (if that was not the case then why aren't more of those rich kids dying silly deaths in special edition ships?). If you get blobed or ganked you will be frustrated, but not because you actually thought buying a few SP would give you the power to destroy entire fleets. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
960
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:26:27 -
[117] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
It's indirect punishment. I spent however long building up my 65 mil SP. As an example, it took trial, error, and time to be able to fly a Golem to the capabilities that I currently can. Now, someone can take a brand new character and have them flying a Golem THAT day at the same level as me, but if I want to say, push all my BS skills to lvl 5 so that I can fly all the Marauders, I take a hit simply because I spent too long training skills. How is that not punishment? Do you feel punished when a restaurant denies you the kid menu? Do you feel punished when your ISP give the first 3 month at a lower rate to new costumer?
Nope, but that's a bad comparison.
It's more like, the restaurant's kid menu is the exact same plate that you're going to be given, only at a cheaper rate. However, you're not allowed to order your food off that menu, simply because you're not a kid.
On the ISP comparison,
It's more like the ISP giving a new customer 2 years of lower rates, when you did get a lower rate at all. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2342
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 19:38:32 -
[118] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
It's indirect punishment. I spent however long building up my 65 mil SP. As an example, it took trial, error, and time to be able to fly a Golem to the capabilities that I currently can. Now, someone can take a brand new character and have them flying a Golem THAT day at the same level as me, but if I want to say, push all my BS skills to lvl 5 so that I can fly all the Marauders, I take a hit simply because I spent too long training skills. How is that not punishment? Do you feel punished when a restaurant denies you the kid menu? Do you feel punished when your ISP give the first 3 month at a lower rate to new costumer? Nope, but that's a bad comparison. It's more like, the restaurant's kid menu is the exact same plate that you're going to be given, only at a cheaper rate. However, you're not allowed to order your food off that menu, simply because you're not a kid. On the ISP comparison, It's more like the ISP giving a new customer 2 years of lower rates, when you did get a lower rate at all.
You probably felt punished for not getting free SP when they recently did the change to new character SP assignement. |
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
128
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:03:21 -
[119] - Quote
When I first read the dev blog, I immediately hated the idea. Then I read through other people's posts here, and I can somewhat see the positive effects of such proposal too.
However, there are a few things that I'm still concerned about.
1. As the 'golden rules' page linked at the launcher clearly says, EVE is not all about skill points and isk. It's about using the right tool for the job at the right situations. Personally I feel that there are many ships and modules available to relatively low skilled pilots to utilise to over come a high SP pilot in a 'wrong' ship, i.e., a T1 scissors can still beat T2 paper. Through the series of ship balances and modules tiercide we've had, many T1 frigates and cruisers are quite useful now, and the idea has been that each of them has a 'role' to play, albeit less effective than T2. Such ships can still be very much effective for low SP pilots with support skills to IV, when the ship is fitted and piloted to serve its role and the strengths.
Skilling up to IV in most basic support/ship skills really does not take long time. I know the meta has changed a lot since then, but we used to have Drake fleets with arbalest HML and alpha fleets with scout artillery (just as an outdated example). Nowadays people rage about a noob in a griffin perma jamming them and a T1 fit celestis keeping them out of fight. Heck, a group of catalysts can gank pretty much anything given enough strength in numbers.
What I'm getting at is that there are already plenty of reasonable options available to low SP pilots, for them to be able to contribute to fleet or even have a stint at solo piracy if they understand the game mechanics. Everyone has experienced 'clueless' pilots with bling fit ships doing clueless stuff in low/null, losing horribly to a lower SP/cheaper ship that was fit for the purpose.
My first concern is that with such 'quick access to T2/T3 with ISK' option, the new players may not fully explore more humble but effective options available to them during their early eve career.
Personally I'd be happy to engage someone who's just bought a lot of SP and doesn't fully understand what he's flying, but would that actually be a good experience for the new players? To spend a lot of ISK (earned through real cash or via in game means or whatever) to get into what they thought would be a leet ship, only to lose it in a humiliating way to veterans in T1 frigs?
2. I understand that buying SP is just an 'option', and people can still train normally as we've done for over a decade. But WHO will actually be able to afford such an option? Buying SP will not be cheap. It's anybody's guess, but I'm pretty sure it will be more expensive than a T1 fit Battleship. A lot of new players who aim for Battleship to do r L4 missions or whatever, are usually in a situation where they cannot afford a BS by the time they have lvl III / IV skills for it. New players run L3 missions in drake to save up isk to buy a Raven (just as an example). Can these players, without any outside help or buying PLEX with real cash, be reasonably expected to buy enough SP to fully T2 fit a BS?
I think it's highly unlikely that someone that new to the game has enough ISK to buy that much SP. Traders boast that they can go from 1 million ISK to 1 billion ISK in X number of days, but that's because they KNOW the game, understand the market and know what they are doing in the market. Just based on exploration, missioning and mining, a NEW pilot is very unlikely to be able to buy SP packets to help his progress.
This is my second concern, that quick SP option will be there for all, but new players will not be in position to take advantage of it.
What it boils down to me, is that new players cannot afford SP packets from their usual in-game income, so they will buy & sell PLEX to buy the SP packets. Then they will skill up, and further PLEX to buy a T2/T3 ship and fit them with all T2 mods. And then, almost inevitably, they will lose such ships in loltastic ways we've all done before at some point in our early eve career (or even now!).
This fits the harsh world of eve, and a fool has every right to waste his money in any way he pleases, but I'm just not convinced that such scenario will 1) attract more new players, 2) help us retain the said new players, 3) encourage the new players to progress quickly and join the bigger fun.
Most likely I think new players either cannot enjoy the SP packet purchase option, or they will take this option and lose their stuff and rage quit with bitter taste in their mouths.
Don't get me wrong - I like the skill trading idea in many ways. I probably use it a lot myself to get my ever increasing number of alts trained up quickly and what not. But that's because I've been playing this game for eight years and have enough isk and know how to focus apply those newly purchased SP to my alts so they will serve a specific role, a role which I already have prior experience with.
So I do not criticise the basic concept behind skill trading, and on personal level I actually welcome it, but I'm not confident that this will really help 'new players' as some people say.
PS: Yes, there is already character bazaar, and some new players buy & sell PLEX to get a high SP character and fail miserably. I don't have any factual evidence for this, but at least from what I've seen personally, players who buy a new character from character bazaar are usually NOT that new to the game. They have usually experienced the game for a few months to a year, joined a corp and identified a particular role they would like to play, and go shopping for that specific character. Most people who trade on character bazaar are not complete noobs who's just finished their trial period (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anybody has hard data on this :p).
|
Opertone
The Poverty Line
330
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:10:34 -
[120] - Quote
I approve of skill packets
add following restrictions
no more than one usage per year... )))
I like reallocation of skillpoints, I have 4 mill unallocated SPs. They are priceless.
I wish that skill points were granted after delivering some special service to CCP, like a private lap dance. Only then you know that you are cool and in control of the situation.
This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.
|
|
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Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1701
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:14:49 -
[121] - Quote
Opertone wrote:I approve of skill packets
add following restrictions
no more than one usage per year... )))
I like reallocation of skillpoints, I have 4 mill unallocated SPs. They are priceless.
I wish that skill points were granted after delivering some special service to CCP, like a private lap dance. Only then you know that you are cool and in control of the situation.
hmm so 500k sp a year? hardly worthwhile is it?
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
961
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:37:28 -
[122] - Quote
I wonder how long it will take for someone with real world personal wealth to amass a ton of these and max out every skill in Eve over night.
Don't think it will happen?
I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?
How much SP would you have if you maxed out every skill in the game?
Presumably just under 500 mil SP, correct?
So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game
Don't be surprised if someone spends that much in a year, if not over night.
Not only that, but they you have CCP saying "Hell yeah, people are spending their life savings on Pay 2 Earn. Lets start introducing more way we can make cash without actually providing any new content to the players or meaningful content to draw in new players."
Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game.
Edit 2..
These prices are assuming this new system doesn't drive plex prices up to 2 bil on their own.
Can't imagine how much the skill packets would cost then. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9348
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:42:07 -
[123] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
That's not an estimate. It's a fantasy.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
DaReaper
Net 7
2635
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:47:22 -
[124] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
1) No punishment at all. You only suffer diminushing returns for already having boatload of SP.
It's indirect punishment. I spent however long building up my 65 mil SP. As an example, it took trial, error, and time to be able to fly a Golem to the capabilities that I currently can. Now, someone can take a brand new character and have them flying a Golem THAT day at the same level as me, but if I want to say, push all my BS skills to lvl 5 so that I can fly all the Marauders, I take a hit simply because I spent too long training skills. How is that not punishment? Edit... I might also note. This has no dependence on what skills you wipe, do not require dedicated skill plans, and basically no general investment into the skills you're training and why. Plus, books are sold by NPCs so spam training the same skills (assuming you have to buy the books again) is cheap and meaningless. I can park my SP character at any station that sells books, buy the cheapest ones and spit them out.
ypu just expalined why there is no punshment to you actually. As a 12 year vert with 150m sp's (yes thats low, i chose not to use implants, meh) i cna fly stuff a noob can;t. If said noob was to go out and buy the skills to fly ships and fit them the way i do, they will still die, because they have no idea how best to utalize that ship. You can fly yoru golem diue to trial and error of your fittings, not because you crammed blings out crap in it without understanding what makes it tick. Thats the differemce. Skill points mean crap in eve. the sooner people rememebr this, the better off they are. I don;t care if a vet wants to empty there skills and sell them so some newbie can player stuff sooner. Doesn;t bother me int he slightest, and is not a punishment. Right now i can go buy a char that can fly a titan with max skills from the bizzar if i want. So there really is no difference.
how is books being sold by npcs change anything? they will get a pool of unallocated points to use. Again i don;t have an issue with this.
no, you can't. you are not seeling a maxed out skill, you are removing skill points form a skill and selling them as unallocated. So if you buy a set of sp's you will inject 50k unallocated skills into your head.
again.. your mad about this why exactly?
no skill ponts appear out of thin air. you cna even use this to remove say mining skills and put some skills into other crap.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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DaReaper
Net 7
2635
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 20:49:15 -
[125] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I wonder how long it will take for someone with real world personal wealth to amass a ton of these and max out every skill in Eve over night.
Don't think it will happen?
I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?
How much SP would you have if you maxed out every skill in the game?
Presumably just under 500 mil SP, correct?
So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game
Don't be surprised if someone spends that much in a year, if not over night.
Not only that, but they you have CCP saying "Hell yeah, people are spending their life savings on Pay 2 Earn. Lets start introducing more way we can make cash without actually providing any new content to the players or meaningful content to draw in new players."
Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game.
Edit 2..
These prices are assuming this new system doesn't drive plex prices up to 2 bil on their own.
Can't imagine how much the skill packets would cost then.
This happens already. a 100m sp char goes for around 30b isk (rought guestimate) thats aprx 30 plex worth or $600. + 2 plex for transfer. Right now i cna go spend money and buy a 'maxed' char. does it make a lick of difference? no cause i;d still die due to not knowing ho to fly the char ship.
OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!
Yes i am optimistic about eve.. i'm giving it till dec 31st 2016 before i doom n gloom
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
961
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 21:13:28 -
[126] - Quote
DaReaper wrote:
This happens already. a 100m sp char goes for around 30b isk (rought guestimate) thats aprx 30 plex worth or $600. + 2 plex for transfer. Right now i cna go spend money and buy a 'maxed' char. does it make a lick of difference? no cause i;d still die due to not knowing ho to fly the char ship.
Buying enough of these to max skill your character is not limited to new players.
Vets can do this as well if they have enough RW cash.
Also, no one in the game has made it but maybe half way to max SP.
So no, you can't just go buy a max SP character.
Now that we know you can't buy a max SP character, we can now state that when players buy a character, they buy everything that goes with it.
Bad skill plans, bad standings, bad reputation with other players, may not own anything, bad KB ratio, and whatever else.
With this new plan, YOU dictate where the SP goes and it's applied to your character of choice.
All that SP of the forums can now be melted down and sold, and those characters can be used for SP farming.
500k is about 6.6 days worth of training if you're set for +5 imps and remapped to max out training.
Like I stated, if you have to re-buy the skill books, then those characters will sit at NPC stations where books are provided.
Now, someone will suggest the idea of putting a limitation on how often you can us this ability to remove SP.
All this will do is increase the cost on the market, thus reducing their availability to newbros even more.
Someone may also suggest instead putting a limitation on how often you can add SP using this.
However, this may make prices more reasonable for newbros, but makes them worthless for those that would actually sell them.
Honestly, if we're going to allow the purchase of un-allocated SP, we might as well make these NPC supplied items so they can at least be and isk sink, and make the players suck it up and get stuck with their old characters and SP.
I'm also going to go on a ledge here and say, I'm seeing a LOT of people happy with this thread. A lot of which I have seen saying "no" on SP purchase threads and on re-allocation of unused SP threads.
I guess it's a good idea because CCP suggested it and not some player who has been considered a carebear...
Hypocrites, if you ask me. |
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
349
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:00:29 -
[127] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Also, the pricing is likely going to be insane.
So, it costs a plex, plus however many days it takes to train 500k SP based on the value of PLEX (we'll say half a month so half the cost of a plex, plus whatever I feel my time is worth.
We're talking 2 billion isk for 500k SP. (based off example math).
Considering you need a plex to buy the extractor, we already know that the SP packets will cost AT LEAST that much.
The part of your post that I bolded is incorrect at this time. Per the dev blog, the only statement about cost is that the extractor "can be purchased in the New Eden Store for Aurum." Could be 1 Aurum, could be 1 million Aurum, but at this point the actual cost has not been determined.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/exploring-the-character-bazaar-skill-trading/?_ga=1.56012843.1278408599.1443717471
I'll throw some rough numbers out for the hell of it:
Base market value based solely on PLEX cost:
1 PLEX = 1 month of gametime, also 1.2 billion ISK
1 month of gametime = 1,500,000 SP
1 SP = 800 ISK
500,000 SP = 400 million ISK.
Premium cost imposed by CCP Aurum requirements:
2 PLEX character transfer fee from the bazaar = 5200 Aurum (current market value'ish?)
2 PLEX applies to even 100+ million SP characters.
My WAG for the cost of a "Transneural Skill Extractor" I'd put at 400 Aurum, less than 10% the cost of a character transfer. That's about 180 million ISK.
So for 500,000 SP, total investment would maybe be 580 million ISK.
Training a 5x skill to level V takes 1,280,000 SP if starting from zero. That would cost 1.484 billion ISK at 400 Aurum per Extractor. Plus any premiums dictated by the market, plus any market manipulations, etc.
Training a 300 million SP character from zero would take 384 billion ISK. That's about four Titans. Doable by some characters/groups I guess.
Anyway, that 400 Aurum number is pure speculation on my part - even "Transneural Skill Packets" being 500k SP is something CCP has stated is not set in stone.
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Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
1102
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:03:35 -
[128] - Quote
All this will really affect are alts and how long it takes to get them set up. Newbies won't benefit as much as everyone thinks, especially if the prices run.
Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.
I invented Tiericide
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Ursula Thrace
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
358
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:05:23 -
[129] - Quote
Hello CCP. Remember Incarna? Well, heads up - this is one of those times.
See the rest of you in Amarr on the 24th.
eve online original intro
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Robert Warner
Back Door Burglars
The Otherworld
133
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 22:31:20 -
[130] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I wonder how long it will take for someone with real world personal wealth to amass a ton of these and max out every skill in Eve over night.
Don't think it will happen?
I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?
How much SP would you have if you maxed out every skill in the game?
Presumably just under 500 mil SP, correct?
So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game
Don't be surprised if someone spends that much in a year, if not over night.
Not only that, but they you have CCP saying "Hell yeah, people are spending their life savings on Pay 2 Earn. Lets start introducing more way we can make cash without actually providing any new content to the players or meaningful content to draw in new players."
Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game.
Edit 2..
These prices are assuming this new system doesn't drive plex prices up to 2 bil on their own.
Can't imagine how much the skill packets would cost then.
Listen to yourself! You actually believe someone is going to spend $400,000 on EVE just to say they have all the skills?
They say a fool and his gold are soon parted. Anyone with that level of disposable income will have better things to do than sink it into EVE.
Pull yourself together, man!
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Lelira Cirim
The Graduates
Get Off My Lawn
240
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:06:28 -
[131] - Quote
Carrie-Anne Moss wrote:
RIOT! (GAMES)
ZOOT SUIT (OPTIONAL)
Do not actively tank my patience.
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Dabby Holder
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:09:53 -
[132] - Quote
The only reason I came here is the skullduggery and the backstabbing (socail) aspects of the game. THis is a social game. Not sure if SP gets in the way of this or not, but maybe it would make it easier to dfg into the side of eve? |
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.19 23:36:48 -
[133] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I have a few problems with this mechanic.
1) Lets punish vets for having spent years training SP by not allowing them to buy SP at the same rate as everyone else.
2) Lets make the cost of SP subject to change by putting the players in control.
3) A system in which personally wealthy people have more benefit than others is not a good design.
4) Eve is officially P2W.
5) This is not going to benefit "new" players, but instead is going to benefit vets creating new characters to use them for dedicated tasks.
which is it? 1 or 5
and eve has always been P2W - at least unofficially - those who wanted to, have always buy up characters and give themself an 'unfair' advantage
the problem is that by doing so they are at a structural disadvantage because they have not played their way into networks or positions of advantage - all they have ever done is buy the right to fly flashy ships that get looted and slavaged
the real issue here is not the buying of SP - but the expense of dual training
|
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 00:01:49 -
[134] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
I know a person that has spent over 5 thousand dollars on one of those MMO RTS cell phone games...
And he is the weakest guy in his alliance (or whatever they call them)...
Imagine how much money their best guy has spent?
Edit..
Oh, and even if you don't find a single person dumb enough to spend 347k on the game, you will definitely find thousands of people dumb enough to spend 11k on the game..
I don't see the issue - or indeed the link
not least because in eve if the bloke who has spent 11k gives me grief - I can either not pay 8 quid a month (or whatever) and go and do something else - or fly off the other end of the universe and do something else
all that has changed is that now you can spend 11k to achieve what someone has had 11k hours (or whatever) of fun to accumulate - but without the fun -great
|
Sam Knob
School Of Applied Pew
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:23:44 -
[135] - Quote
Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).
Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]
SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)
The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.
Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.
Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package. |
Sam Knob
School Of Applied Pew
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:39:42 -
[136] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game
Considering my calculations above let me correct these:
$28 USD = 5 mil SP
$341 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$761 = 80 mil SP
$24'283 = All the SP in the game |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
709
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 01:48:58 -
[137] - Quote
Dabby Holder wrote:The only reason I came here is the skullduggery and the backstabbing (socail) aspects of the game. THis is a social game. Not sure if SP gets in the way of this or not, but maybe it would make it easier to dfg into the side of eve?
Same here. SP doesnt affect the social aspect. What it does is get people into positions they cannot handle. Short term players might play longer, but since is not magic SP, I do not imagine it being some massive influx. Farming SP clones is no different than bodyfarm accounts for character bazaar. Problem is that now the account holder has a sub AND the aur. Cost to itemize the SP. Dollar for dollar, is better for em to just character xfer.
In end, will just be a one attribute maxed character will make them. Some newbs will buy it, and will be rare those that spend the coin to match a longer term player. Those that do, well same person. Worst case is a player who is good that can be part of a more hardcore community early. They though would probably want to earn with the coining to just bling that one long term skill or ship setup they really want.
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
961
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 03:24:19 -
[138] - Quote
Sam Knob wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:So 500k for 0-5 mil = 10 of these.
400k for 5 - 50 mil = 112.5
200k for 50 - 80 mil = 150
50k for 80 - 500 mil = 8400
Total = 8672.5
If we assume that skill packets cost 2 bil on the market, then they're essentially worth $40 USD. (estimate obviously)
This means.
$400 USD = 5 mil SP
$4,900 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil)
$10,900 = 80 mil SP
$346,900 = All the SP in the game Considering my calculations above let me correct these: $28 USD = 5 mil SP $341 = 50 mil SP (from 0-50mil) $761 = 80 mil SP $24'283 = All the SP in the game
If these numbers are correct, than you can certainly assume that someone would max SP as soon as there's enough skill packets on the market.
Much like PLEX though, they'll probably start low and work their way up.
The market is going to be flooded with these by people that are just selling off their unused skills, as well as those auction characters getting wiped down to 5 mil SP.
I may be a bit excessive on my pricing, but I think we can both agree you're quite a bit too lenient on your pricing.
It's going to cost at least 100k to fully SP a character from 0 to 500 mil, or whatever max SP is.
Again, there are people in other P2W MMOs that have spent well over this amount of money.
I think it's fair to assume that many people will SP new toons up to 50 mil, and there will be a select few that will max SP.
I personally will likely use this system to a certain extent in order to get recons, neuts, jams, Amarr BS and some other choice skills to max.
I mean, I may not agree with the system and I may feel it's unfair to those of us that have spent years training SP only to find out a new character can hit 50mil day one, but you'd still be an idiot not to use this system to it's full advantage and top off those choice skills.
Side note - I do realize that starting a new toon on an alt account and pegging it out to 50mil SP is something that I can do as well. HOWEVER, this again favors those that have personal wealth in RL. I'm not poor but I don't have the time nor the money to spend. I don't even want to spend the money to run a second account and don't play enough to build 1bil isk a month. Though, if I do get more than 1bil isk per month, I would rather not spend it just trying to keep a second account going, as it defeats the purpose of having a second account.
So, let me adjust my original statement.
This is more beneficial to vets creating new toons than it is for newbros, and it favors those with personal wealth while leaving the rest of us to slow boat our way on SP that we always have.
This does not factor those that are capable of attaining massive in-game wealth. You had the ability and the means, all attained in-game, so you can do whatever the hell you want with your isk.
Though, I do see an alliance showing up one day to an empty wallet, only to find that some player used it to max SP their toon.
Something like this will definitely happen, and I'm pretty sure there's going to be some rage and rioting over this, as SP cannot be taken back, even if they were able to figure out which character all that isk went to. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:04:18 -
[139] - Quote
Sam Knob wrote:Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).
Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]
SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)
The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.
Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.
Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package.
Edit: The dollar price is actually lower since a PLEX costs more than an actual month of EVE (currently at around 11 - 15$ / month) -> 2.80$ per skill point package Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.
@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
3663
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:36:48 -
[140] - Quote
Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.
So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?
Know a Frozen fan? Check this out
Frozen fanfiction
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 04:41:51 -
[141] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.
So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?
The claim we've seen most often in the official feedback thread has generally been that the price of these will incentivize PLEX sales to sell for the purpose of generating the needed isk. They then add to that that the extractors will have a cost in AUR as well, and from these aspects call it a "cash grab" by CCP. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
961
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 05:28:11 -
[142] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Sam Knob wrote:Assuming the maximum amount of SP/hour is 2700 we can calculate the price of a skill point package (that will give us a better base of discussion).
Skill Package price = SPP
Skill Package Content (the number of SP required to make a skill package) = SPC [500'000]
Max SP/hour = SPH [2700]
Average hours per month = Hpm [730]
Skill Extractor price = SEP
PLEX price = PLP [1.2b]
SPP = (PLP / ((SPH* Hpm) / SPC)) + SEP
SPP = 304'414'003.04 + SEP (~5$ if SEP is marginal)
The number above is the highest price possible, it cannot be higher (for the mentioned PLP). If it would, then all players would create any amount of characters they are comfortable with, boost them to 5m SP and start farming any amount of ISK and SP for free.
Independent of PLP we can assume that one skill package will cost around 5$ if SEP is marginal.
Quite honestly if CCP is not going to make the skill extractor ridiculously expensive then I am quite comfortable paying that amount for a skill point package.
Edit: The dollar price is actually lower since a PLEX costs more than an actual month of EVE (currently at around 11 - 15$ / month) -> 2.80$ per skill point package Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730. @ Joe: The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.
2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly.
Either way, I'm not a fan of the diminishing returns for vet characters. Sure, they don't need the SP as badly, but they have also earned every bit they have, the hard way.
Not to mention, those vets won't even be able to flip their own skills without losing SP.
That's probably fair to some extent, but then you have a character with less than 50 mil SP that can flip skills and get double the returns.
I mean, there's just so many reasons I don't like this system, even if it's something I could benefit from.
Hell, since everyone seems to agree with the buying, selling, removal, and installation of SP that so many have been adamant were bad ideas over the years, let's just start going through the lists of other ideas that players didn't agree with.
Mini-carriers and dreads, SP/h buffed by active gameplay, like 5's back in HS, no pvp in HS without consent, players being able to set their character as non-pvp so they can go do stuff outside of HS without being popped, etc etc.
Not to mention, I'm pretty sure part or all of this is listed somewhere in the 191 pages of bad ideas; And those comments probably have likes. |
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
1577
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 06:08:04 -
[143] - Quote
The real issue will be the cost of the skill extractor as ISK is relatively easy to obtain and a skill optimized character can generate 24 mill SP a year more or less.
People with bulk ISK on hand will be able to create new characters which (with a maximised profile and relevant implants) after just 9 or 10 weeks, taking into account the SP bonus granted to new characters, can start churning out two mill disposable SP a month . That is roughly 2.5 plex per character to get them to SP trading status and then a PLEX a month to generate two million SP per month to freely move to other characters.
If you work it well the SP creating alt should be able to generate the ISK to PLEX itself so the only cost will be 4 skill extractors a month.
If the skill extractors are also available for ISK it should be feasible to get a stable of SP characters who generate their own ISK for plex and extractors providing free SP for the owners main.
None of this is possible for new players of course. |
Sam Knob
School Of Applied Pew
7
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 07:49:30 -
[144] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.
@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional.
If I am not mistaken this does not matter since 11$ gets you one month of play and not only 30 days, so it's safe to consider average hours per month.
Joe Risalo wrote:Much like PLEX though, they'll probably start low and work their way up.
The market is going to be flooded with these by people that are just selling off their unused skills, as well as those auction characters getting wiped down to 5 mil SP.
I may be a bit excessive on my pricing, but I think we can both agree you're quite a bit too lenient on your pricing.
It's going to cost at least 100k to fully SP a character from 0 to 500 mil, or whatever max SP is.
The good thing about my calculations is that they are correct regardless of the PLEX price. If CCP does not want that to be the case, they will have to:
- make the extractor cost hundreds of millions of ISK (at which point the last white knight will be shouting "CASHGRAB")
- augment the number of SP it costs to generate a skill package (say you will need 4m SP in order to generate a skill point package)
|
Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1703
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:13:09 -
[145] - Quote
who really cares, people who have enough money to spend 100k on games already buy high sp characters and titans and whatever else and die just as fast.
More development money for ccp...
If it means more content provided to nullsec etc then its not a bad thing so stop being spoiled brats and get over yourselves
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Zsha
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:26:08 -
[146] - Quote
Shut it you ******* baffoon |
atif09
THE THIRTEEN SAMURAI
The Old Guard.
12
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 08:40:02 -
[147] - Quote
see you at the event.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:23:05 -
[148] - Quote
Sam Knob wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Only issue I have with the math is that plex doesn't cover the average month, but 30days regardless of month length making it so that, for comparison to plex price, Hpm should probably be 720 rather than 730.
@ Joe:
The continued existence of the Character Bazaar makes 2B/500k SP pretty absurd. That's going to have to be dialed back to compete with character sales to be even remotely functional. If I am not mistaken this does not matter since 11$ gets you one month of play and not only 30 days, so it's safe to consider average hours per month. A 1 month sub is 30 days, not the length of the current calendar month, regardless of payment method. Thus the average calendar month should not be used. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1649
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 09:32:51 -
[149] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly. The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again. |
ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
5
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 11:10:57 -
[150] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.
So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all?
It is because you can (use RL money) not because you don't have to (that made sense when I typed it) |
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Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
255
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 13:21:04 -
[151] - Quote
I, for one, welcome our skill point selling overlords. |
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
710
|
Posted - 2015.10.20 17:49:04 -
[152] - Quote
ColdBeauty wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Some of this discussion seems to be based on a bit of confusion.
The skill extractor requires Aurum to obtain. You fill it with your skill points to turn it into a skill packet.
The skill packet would then be sold, for ISK, to another player.
The player that buys the skill packet only spends ISK. If you are good at EVE, and can make ISK, you can get all the skill points you want without spending any real money at all.
So is it really pay to win, when you do not need to pay any real money at all? It is because you can (use RL money) not because you don't have to (that made sense when I typed it)
Is also the miner falsity that minerals are free. If a person wants to think that hours of play is worth investing in gaining an hour of training, then let em. Person who is a rich veteran wants to spend their trillion isk to gain a few skills they dont care about? Let them.
I have all the SP for skills that I care about. Anything else is kinda fluff. I suppose I can get a lvl 5 titan skill for my whole fortune....
To quote Lfod Shi
The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
|
Anahl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 19:56:19 -
[153] - Quote
Nope I actually quite like this idea of CCP's.
It makes sense, and will give your own character more identity. You can already buy characters, buying those SP is in no way different, just administered in a better way. |
Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4205
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:08:31 -
[154] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly. The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again. Exactly.
Something around 10% of 1/4 PLEX, so 1/40 PLEX or 30M ISK (at current PLEX prices) would make more sense.
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:24:59 -
[155] - Quote
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:2b probably is quite a bit extreme, but we don't know how extreme.
For all we know CCP may set the Aurum cost to the equivalent of 2 PLEX, or it may be 1/4 PLEX, considering 500k SP is about a week with +5s and remapped properly. The logic here assumes double paying for the SP why? The player creating the SP already paid the sub for it in one form or another, thus there is no reason for the extractors to charge that same amount again. Exactly. Something around 10% of 1/4 PLEX, so 1/40 PLEX or 30M ISK (at current PLEX prices) would make more sense.
No... It would probably be about 1/4 PLEX is Aurum costs based on 500k SP being approx 1 week worth of SP.
You may also be able to determine that this is the relative value of time invested, so the would cost approx. 1/2 a PLEX.
Which means TONS of people are going to be buying up as much SP as they can. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
8847
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:32:56 -
[156] - Quote
BECAUSE OF SKILLPOINTS
[b]----
CONCORD arrested two n00bs yesterday, one was drinking battery acid, the other was eating fireworks. They charged one and let the other one off.[/b]
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1656
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 20:39:35 -
[157] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:No... It would probably be about 1/4 PLEX is Aurum costs based on 500k SP being approx 1 week worth of SP.
You may also be able to determine that this is the relative value of time invested, so the would cost approx. 1/2 a PLEX.
Which means TONS of people are going to be buying up as much SP as they can. Again you are missing the point, the AUR cost of the extractor has no reason whatsoever to reflect the cost of the SP since that cost is paid by the sub that generated the SP.
The point of the AUR cost is to replicate the transfer fee of the Bazaar in a more granular fashion. Considering the effective flat price of 7000 AUR (2 PLEX) transfers any amount of SP, up to several tens or even over a hundred million, 875 for 500k is ridiculous as a transfer fee, which is what the extractor cost is, the transfer cost, not the SP cost. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:16:40 -
[158] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Again you are missing the point, the AUR cost of the extractor has no reason whatsoever to reflect the cost of the SP since that cost is paid by the sub that generated the SP.
The point of the AUR cost is to replicate the transfer fee of the Bazaar in a more granular fashion. Considering the effective flat price of 7000 AUR (2 PLEX) transfers any amount of SP, up to several tens or even over a hundred million, 875 for 500k is ridiculous as a transfer fee, which is what the extractor cost is, the transfer cost, not the SP cost.
I feel that YOU are missing the point.
What you're stating is not how the market works.
the isk to plex to Aurum ratio is very much going to reflect in the cost of the SP packet.
It's just like ship production.
The cost of materials is reflected in the sales price of the ship, as the cost is absorbed by the consumer.
HOWEVER, in the case of ship production, the producer can attain the materials (via mining and whatever means) in order to reduce sales price. Thus allowing them to be more competitive.
If we assume that the extractor is going to cost 1/4 the Aurum you attain from a PLEX, then charging anything less than 1/4 the cost of a PLEX in isk value, is selling at a loss.
You must then also determine the relative isk value of 500k SP in relation to training time vs PLEX cost.
We'll assume that 500k SP with +5 implants and full remap for sold skills is worth 1/4 a PLEX as well.
This would mean you can easily determine what the sale value of the skill packet should be at MINIMUM.
Now, there will likely be people that undercut that number and will basically say that their time spent is worth less.
Even if half the cost of a PLEX is undercut (this assuming my example is correct), then you DEFINITELY would not undercut the relative is value of the Aurum needed for the extractor.
The ACTUAL value of these SP packets will be very easy to determine based on what CCP sets as the SP amount (for now it's 500k) and the amount of AURUM CCP plans to charge.
Whether the players charge more or less than that value is entirely up to them, but there is a bare minimum you can charge before you actually lose isk and say your time spent is worth nothing. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2015.10.22 23:30:13 -
[159] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:I feel that YOU are missing the point.
What you're stating is not how the market works. No, I'm not missing anything. This started from the assertion you made that the AUR cost of an extractor could be 1/4th of a PLEX because that's how long it takes to get the SP. Under a proposal of buying SP at a set cost from CCP that makes sense, but that isn't what was proposed.
Yes, the fact that it takes a week to get the SP will help push the market price towards 1/4th a PLEX in isk value (+extractor cost), but that in no way suggests the extractor cost needs to match that or even should.
Joe Risalo wrote:the isk to plex to Aurum ratio is very much going to reflect in the cost of the SP packet. No one is disputing this, what was disputed was your math that assumed the extractor would initially cost close to 2 PLEX (judged by your 2B/packet number) then the follow up suggestion that the extractor could likely cost the same as the time training the SP converted to AUR then isk.
If you meant "packet" and not "extractor" when your suggested the price that's another story, but as stated there is no reason for the extractor, the part sold by CCP to allow removal of SP from a character, to have a cost that mimics the cost of the SP produced. Especially when the cost to transfer SP currently has no set AUR or PLEX:SP ratio. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:04:43 -
[160] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:No one is disputing this, what was disputed was your math that assumed the extractor would initially cost close to 2 PLEX (judged by your 2B/packet number) then the follow up suggestion that the extractor could likely cost the same as the time training the SP converted from PLEX to isk.
If you meant "packet" and not "extractor" when your suggested the price that's another story, but as stated there is no reason for the extractor, the part sold by CCP to allow removal of SP from a character, to have a cost that mimics the cost of the SP produced. Especially when the cost to transfer SP currently has no set AUR or PLEX:SP ratio.
Ok.. This is our bad... We were misunderstanding each other.
I had already determined that I was wrong on my initial 2 bil estimate.
That estimate was based off the assumption that the cost of the extractor would be the full PLEX value, 500 in SP, and up to 500 mil of the player making isk.
Having said that, we don't yet know the Aurum cost, so it could very well be the full price of a PLEX.
To be perfectly honest, if Aurum value is less than half a PLEX, than it's going to be WAY too easy for players to buy these and MANY MANY people would likely boost up to 80 mil, if not further.
This is kind of the problem I'm having with the whole system. There is no amount of SP and Aurum ratio that is a butter zone.
It seems like it's either going to be too easy for new toons, or too costly for vet toons.
IF CCP were to remove the diminishing returns, I feel it would be easier to find a butter zone, and also more fair for those of us that only have one toon and have spent years training that toon, only to find they will be punished on that toon for training so long. |
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:23:37 -
[161] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Ok.. This is our bad... We were misunderstanding each other.
I had already determined that I was wrong on my initial 2 bil estimate.
That estimate was based off the assumption that the cost of the extractor would be the full PLEX value, 500 in SP, and up to 500 mil of the player making isk.
Having said that, we don't yet know the Aurum cost, so it could very well be the full price of a PLEX.
To be perfectly honest, if Aurum value is less than half a PLEX, than it's going to be WAY too easy for players to buy these and MANY MANY people would likely boost up to 80 mil, if not further.
This is kind of the problem I'm having with the whole system. There is no amount of SP and Aurum ratio that is a butter zone.
It seems like it's either going to be too easy for new toons, or too costly for vet toons.
IF CCP were to remove the diminishing returns, I feel it would be easier to find a butter zone, and also more fair for those of us that only have one toon and have spent years training that toon, only to find they will be punished on that toon for training so long. Something in the realm of 900mill/500k SP (assuming half a plex per extractor) does not make a trivial trip to any amount of SP. How many people do you think can, much less will drop 245B/char to get to 80m SP (with diminishing returns accounted for)?
Really the only issue is that the scaling is too low IMHO, especially the 5-50m range, which accounts for a really large range of potential effect. Account for that and trivial cost for extractors is a non issue, especially if market forces do try to consume the the SP packets in large quantities, raising the market value of the time to compensate.
It's scaling that prevents easy creation of high SP characters, which does more to preserve the value of existing high SP characters, while still leaving the system open at lower levels. If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.
Scaling is only a punishment if you feel waiting is somehow worse than spending hundreds of billions of isk (at a 0 extractor cost with current scaling and PLEX equivalent market pricing this character would cost over 250B to replicate @ 110m SP). |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:41:29 -
[162] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote: If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.
This is the problem at any level of SP purchase.
This system HEAVILY favors vets with large isk wallets and those with high real world personal wealth.
If we assume the base rate of an SP packet is as low as 500mil, most new players (not new toons, but specifically new players) will not accrue that amount of isk in their first year of play.
So the ONLY option for a newbro is to either know someone in game with wealth, join an alliance with wealth that provides skill packets, or spend real world cash in order to purchase the packets by selling PLEX.
No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:45:07 -
[163] - Quote
One thing I would like to see though.
If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1664
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 00:51:37 -
[164] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote: If we're just going to gate this at billions for any real effect we may as well not do it as it leaves all the negatives (rich players power leveling, "cash grabs," few/no options for new players without substantial RL currency investment) and none of the positives.
This is the problem at any level of SP purchase. This system HEAVILY favors vets with large isk wallets and those with high real world personal wealth. If we assume the base rate of an SP packet is as low as 500mil, most new players (not new toons, but specifically new players) will not accrue that amount of isk in their first year of play. So the ONLY option for a newbro is to either know someone in game with wealth, join an alliance with wealth that provides skill packets, or spend real world cash in order to purchase the packets by selling PLEX. No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase. Cost only on a per packet basis it will always favor the larger wallet, on the actual effect it will benefit whoever it's engineered to benefit, which is clearly those at lower SP. Yes, alts create the possibility of having both, but at a point alts cease to be of great use and developing new ones just wasteful unless continually expanding accounts per player.
If the in cost for new players is an issue the option to further reduce the packet size to something more affordable exists. |
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 03:05:36 -
[165] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This is the problem at any level of SP purchase.
This system HEAVILY favors vets with large isk wallets and those with high real world personal wealth.
If we assume the base rate of an SP packet is as low as 500mil, most new players (not new toons, but specifically new players) will not accrue that amount of isk in their first year of play.
So the ONLY option for a newbro is to either know someone in game with wealth, join an alliance with wealth that provides skill packets, or spend real world cash in order to purchase the packets by selling PLEX.
No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase.
Cost only on a per packet basis it will always favor the larger wallet, on the actual effect it will benefit whoever it's engineered to benefit, which is clearly those at lower SP. Yes, alts create the possibility of having both, but at a point alts cease to be of great use and developing new ones just wasteful unless continually expanding accounts per player.
If the in cost for new players is an issue the option to further reduce the packet size to something more affordable exists.
Edit: Say we do 100k packets @ 50AUR, with PLEX at about 1.2B we end up with estimated 80m packets.
Then scale a bit more agressively:
up to 5m = 100k/packet
up to 25m = 80k/packet
up to 50m = 50k/packet
up to 75m = 25k/packet
over 75m = 10k/packet
Now it costs 339B to make a 100m character while small hits of SP are far more accessible.[/quote]
The one major benefit I see coming out of this system is that alliances will likely provide newbros with SP packets.
HOWEVER, that also has a downside in that those alliances will force newbros into niche roles and then likely won't help this SP into solo and/or more enjoyable activities.
Also, CCP has been trying to push Eve into a role of more, smaller entities, as opposed to making large entities larger.
This system has the negative outcome of counteracting their attempts to reduce entity sizes.
Only time will tell, I suppose. |
Space Frog
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
13
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Posted - 2015.10.23 09:27:24 -
[166] - Quote
stfu you pedo-peddling smut lord! |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
449
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 13:04:09 -
[167] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:One thing I would like to see though.
If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss.
This has come up 100s of times. Choosing to train something is a relevant decision. It should remain so. That means "remapping skills" should always come at some cost. Not just an isk one either. A sp one.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
966
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:01:14 -
[168] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:One thing I would like to see though.
If you extract SP from your too and apply that SP back to that same toon, I don't feel it should suffer diminishing returns.
If we're already going to buying SP, we might as well allow players to purchase a SP remaps without SP loss. This has come up 100s of times. Choosing to train something is a relevant decision. It should remain so. That means "remapping skills" should always come at some cost. Not just an isk one either. A sp one.
It has come up several times.
Though, so has selling SP and now that's happening.
Look, vet toons will suffer diminishing returns on the SP packets.
The least that can happen is allowing them to remap small amounts of SP at a time without losing any. |
Best Korea
Leap Technologies
6
|
Posted - 2015.10.23 20:48:44 -
[169] - Quote
It's really funny how much this "protest" failed before it started.
I, like many others, support CCP's move. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
624
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Posted - 2015.10.24 00:42:23 -
[170] - Quote
i, i, i against i. |
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Ursula Thrace
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
359
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 01:22:39 -
[171] - Quote
i will be there my eve brothers and sisters. may the force be with us.
eve online original intro
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Alt Pilot1
Hysera Innovations
28
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Posted - 2015.10.24 01:56:36 -
[172] - Quote
I fully support this new system of skill trading. It has multiple benefits, and no drawbacks that I can think of.
1. It gives characters more flexibility
2. Gives new players easier access to skill points.
The only people who complain are the ones who won't let go of their e-peens, because they don't want new players to advance too quickly.
Or maybe some people complain because they make their ISK by training / trading characters on the Character Bazaar, and they're worried that their income will be affected negatively because now everyone can see the exact market price that Skill Points are trading at.
Just like when officer / navy equipment went from strictly contract trading to market window trading. Maybe they're afraid this new system will make Skill Point market data too transparent, thus decreasing their income. Whether it happens or not, it's for the greater good. |
Daerrol
Work In Progress.
241
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Posted - 2015.10.24 02:19:32 -
[173] - Quote
New system is fine? |
General Lootit
RDS Academy
Everyb0dy Knows
30
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Posted - 2015.10.24 12:28:50 -
[174] - Quote
Daerrol wrote:New system is fine?
Yeap |
Deck Cadelanne
CAStabouts
250
|
Posted - 2015.10.24 14:23:03 -
[175] - Quote
General Lootit wrote:Daerrol wrote:New system is fine? Yeap
Totally fine.
Still nothing to see here...moving along!
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn professional."
- Hunter S. Thompson
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TheInternet TweepsOnline TheInternet
Yellow Duck Consortium
11
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:26:02 -
[176] - Quote
I've never seen CCP make a change that I didn't like.
Great job, CCP! You're the best! |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2350
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 19:32:15 -
[177] - Quote
Joe Risalo wrote:
No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase.
What's wrong with "cash grabs" anyway?
#nopoors |
chelly Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2015.10.26 19:53:10 -
[178] - Quote
No, I like the changes.
It could help new players and that alone is an amazing thing.
Furthermore buying SP has been around for ages.
Stop being poor. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
5688
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 21:05:17 -
[179] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Joe Risalo wrote:
No matter how you look at it, this IS a "cash grab" as the system relies specifically on PLEX, which can only be introduced into the game through real cash purchase.
What's wrong with "cash grabs" anyway? #nopoors
And buying characters costs 2 plex.
With the number of characters which sell every day, if CCP didn't have a monetization angle on it, they'd lose income.
Woo! CSM X!
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
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ColdBeauty
oooh ponies
23
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Posted - 2015.10.26 21:20:05 -
[180] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
#nopoors
ooh how 80's of you
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Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
486
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Posted - 2015.10.26 21:56:36 -
[181] - Quote
Unfortunately this time around its not going to work. Players are too disenfranchised with the game. It happened then because it was all a big shock. Nowadays people are just too apathetic from years of this bullshit. This will be a last straw for many but until it actually gets implemented you won't see the results. |
Tau Rollard
Dynamic Security Solutions
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.26 22:24:47 -
[182] - Quote
I didn't agree with the riot of Incarnia entirely. Micro transactions were silly but i wanted them to work on a social expansion of this LITERAL SOCIAL GAME. Still majority rule doesn't work in a mental institution.
This is just posturing for someone who needs attention. People like you show the rest of the gaming community as bitchy autistic 10 year old grim-dark cry babies. Your delusional level of entitlement is the reason why we cant have nice things.
This is good for new players, good for business and most importantly GOOD FOR CONTENT! |
Shade Alidiana
PROSPERO Corporation
MinTek Conglomerate
99
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Posted - 2015.10.27 06:09:34 -
[183] - Quote
Whoa, I missed it. how come :/
Well I belatedly support the move. I hate the changes. |
Frank Pannon
174
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Posted - 2015.10.27 06:50:20 -
[184] - Quote
I support anything that brings more people into the game and facilitates those rough early days for newbies.
-1 for a riot, am late anyways.
A riot, what a stupid kneejerk reaction. People complaining about moneygrab pfff... I want CCP to make enough money, so that they can maintain their workforce, and keep developing this game I love, and keep playing it with my friends for many more years. Stop being so jaded. |
Marcus Alexzander
4
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Posted - 2015.10.27 16:10:50 -
[185] - Quote
I support all of the changes that CCP is planing. Long live EVE!
I am the prophet of the Blood God! Let the stars of New Eden burn!
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Valacus
Shattered Silver
2
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Posted - 2015.10.27 18:33:58 -
[186] - Quote
Even if the changes only help new players, I support it. There's no reason we can't give new players a helping hand when it comes to the brutal world of EVE Online. They're already racing through support skills just so they can fit what meager ships they have properly, let alone trying to get into better ship classes and bigger guns. Throw them a bone. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
168
|
Posted - 2015.11.01 01:02:42 -
[187] - Quote
It's not going to help new players. It will cost far too much for them. These changes will help old players make alts and rich corps, mostly ones that recruit from outside of the game. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
152
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Posted - 2015.11.01 03:41:17 -
[188] - Quote
Valacus wrote: Throw them a bone.
How is charging them real life money throwing them a bone ? It's exploiting them. Helping them would be something like increasing starting SP and lowering training times to reach level 5 for support skills or something that didn't cost extra ion top of the sub.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9527
|
Posted - 2015.11.02 19:23:40 -
[189] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:It's not going to help new players. It will cost far too much for them. These changes will help old players make alts and rich corps, mostly ones that recruit from outside of the game.
I'm confused.
You seem to be against rich corps using their wealth for the noble goal of introducing new players to the game. Players that otherwise might have never heard of this game.
It irks me that people seem to be adamantly opposed to corps trying to increase the player base. Is that not what CCP wanted in the first place? A sandbox with player made content? That content must surely include recruiting new people from outside the game. A thing that SA, Reddit, and others have successfully achieved.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Railroad Cop
Trademarque
Alternate Allegiance
2
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Posted - 2015.11.03 01:01:18 -
[190] - Quote
OP is a ******.
Greed = Selling a Monocle (A virtual / pixel one at that) for $80 USD.
Skill Packets = An idea that has been well thought out and planned. It is not pay to win, it has been built around benefiting new players and not doing crap to benefit high SP players other than allowing them to pull unused / un wanted skills from their head and make a bit of cash from it.
Look at the bazaar and all of the "****" characters with wasted SP that were seemingly trained by someone with the attention span of a gold fish. They now have a use - new players can buy them (or be bought cheap for SP extraction) to skill up faster.
SP are not created from thin air - they are taken from Players whom have earned them just like everyone else.
Note- they are taken at a LOSS - you can inject less than what you pull out.
Quit your bitching! |
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
159
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Posted - 2015.11.03 01:06:47 -
[191] - Quote
Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players
So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9527
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 02:41:46 -
[192] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys Kind of like now where they stump up the cash to go shopping in the Character Bazaar?
Find something else to justify your altruistic compassion for new players.. The "Think of the poor noobs with no money" shtick is not only dishonest, it's getting really old, really fast.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
2638
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 03:02:34 -
[193] - Quote
If it's not people paying real money for SP, I have no problems with it.
We can already sell our alts for isk on the bazaar. And lots of people have expressed an interest in shedding useless skills. Why is this such a problem?
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
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Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 10:14:25 -
[194] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:
...
To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive. Yes, people could always go and buy a character off the Bazaar. But their connection to a character like that is less. Also, it's a significantly higher outlay, so it's not a 'normal' option for people to take. With a lower initial cost, the pressure is higher. And I think that's a bad idea.
(Will it kill Eve? Nope. I just don't think it'll be good for it)
I don't see that as relevant.
Reason being the only way (talking skill points) you can presently get skill points is by having an active account. So those starting can never be competitive as there is presently no catch up if players continue to subscribe.
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Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1773
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 10:18:47 -
[195] - Quote
I think its fine, give them skillpoint microtransactions so carebears can have max lvl ravens and stuff
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
40705
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 10:28:12 -
[196] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:If it's not people paying real money for SP, I have no problems with it.
We can already sell our alts for isk on the bazaar. And lots of people have expressed an interest in shedding useless skills. Why is this such a problem?
I think your last sentence is answered by the possibility of your first.
I've mellowed on my initial reaction to the idea. Still cautious, but we'll see how it develops.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
194
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 10:36:50 -
[197] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Jarod Garamonde wrote:If it's not people paying real money for SP, I have no problems with it.
We can already sell our alts for isk on the bazaar. And lots of people have expressed an interest in shedding useless skills. Why is this such a problem? I think your last sentence is answered by the possibility of your first. I've mellowed on my initial reaction to the idea. Still cautious, but we'll see how it develops.
I can understand the negative reaction of some people to this.
A lot of people have played the game a long time and some of those will view it as an achievement. So being able to buy sp undermines their sense of achievement. |
GeorgePenken
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 11:32:30 -
[198] - Quote
A protest about what?
This is good for Eve.
The character bazzar is outdated and needs improving. Making it so skills can be traded is an awesome idea. |
Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
701
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 11:40:49 -
[199] - Quote
People have been selling SP through the Character Bazaar for years. This is no different. The process is just more streamlined. |
Stalking Mantis
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
887
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:06:11 -
[200] - Quote
I think the REAL question that should be asked here is: WHY is CCP strapped for cash?
In my humble opinion it is because everytime they have some they hire someone that does not understand the core concept of eve and he starts some random project for them. See Dust, Vampires, The new Shooter on rails.
Look no one can blame CCP for trying to diversify income through trying to R&D new games. Problem is they don't know if they want to cater to their current player base or reach out to new ones. And while they flounder that question they keep losing players.
Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare
-->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
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Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
45
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Posted - 2015.11.03 12:44:06 -
[201] - Quote
I remember one of previous protests which directly made Incarna aborted. It's the most absurd protest of all time in my own opinion. The protesters are so shortsighted.
Walking in the station is a significant feature, which could leads to various kinds of gameplay and extremely extend the depth of EVE. PVE is the base of EVE.
Skill trading is also a very important decision to new players, which could help them a lot to get through the tedious experience when waiting for skills to accomplish. Everyone knows the decline of online player number.
It's also vital for CCP, after all, who'd been once on the edge of bankruptcy.
CCP just sold White Wolf Publishing. I think the money will be spent on the new servers in my opinion.
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Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 12:44:52 -
[202] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:People have been selling SP through the Character Bazaar for years. This is no different. The process is just more streamlined.
There is a difference, a character from the bazaar has a set amount of sp to increase it you need an active account.
Unless they impose a restriction on trading sp, there is no limit. |
Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 13:03:20 -
[203] - Quote
And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life. |
Ice Frozen Heart
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 13:22:47 -
[204] - Quote
Disagree.
I would like to see some other way of SP-trading, something like "perk" trading, f.e to get new pilot learned Titan skills he have to waste 5-15 dread pilots skills.
and 50k SP after 80m ... only euro millioners can afford such investments to get reasonable improvement to character SP, so no big difference for other players. Especialy if to agree that SP not the only thing you need in EVE. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
162
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 13:34:50 -
[205] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys Kind of like now where they stump up the cash to go shopping in the Character Bazaar? Find something else to justify your altruistic compassion for new players.. The "Think of the poor noobs with no money" shtick is not only dishonest, it's getting really old, really fast. Mr Epeen
Fully skilled characters going for 10s of billions is not the same as TSPs going for (at a guess) 100s of millions. The bar is set high enough in the character bazaar that new guys aren't all buying fully skilled characters. When those characters are broken down into TSP sized packets and put on the market at "more affordable" prices, many more new guys are going to buy the TSPs who would not have bought a new character. When the ones who don't, or cannot afford to see their 2 day old friends in the ship they will have to wait weeks to fly, the message will be clear,
YOU CAN PLAY NOW, IF YOU PAY US MORE MONEY.
The difference between character bazaar and TSPs is like Cocaine to Crack. If you can't see endless whine threads about CCP doing something about the price of SPs in General Discussion in the future then I would suggest it is you who is being dishonest.
The perception for many newguys just starting the game and many thinking about starting will be YOU CAN PLAY NOW, IF YOU PAY US MORE MONEY, whether that's 100% accurate is irrelevant, if that's what people think it will damage subscriptions and retention.
You can question the "real" reason for my opposition to this move all you like, I've been consistent in my reasons since it was suggested and it has nothing to do with butthurt about my SPs being devalued (I don't even have that many I spent so long unsubbed over the years). It has nothing to do with stupid principles (I bought this character back in 2010) it has everything to do with my feeling that newguys do need better help getting into this game more quickly and this being about the worst possible way that can be achieved.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
162
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Posted - 2015.11.03 13:40:25 -
[206] - Quote
Nate Hill wrote:And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life.
EvE is not real life HTH |
Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 14:23:32 -
[207] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Nate Hill wrote:And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life. EvE is not real life HTH
Playing EVE is real life. |
Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1775
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 14:29:18 -
[208] - Quote
Nate Hill wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Nate Hill wrote:And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life. EvE is not real life HTH Playing EVE is real life.
EVE IS REAL
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
162
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Posted - 2015.11.03 14:43:07 -
[209] - Quote
Nate Hill wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Nate Hill wrote:And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life. EvE is not real life HTH Playing EVE is real life.
Have you considered the possibility that people play characters in a fictional online game in a way that is contrary to the way they act in real life ?
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Lan Wang
V I R I I
Ineluctable.
1775
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 14:50:23 -
[210] - Quote
i sometimes pretend my car is a dramiel and enjoy chasing the manticore's around the town while listening to Pete and the Pirates and saying yarr to pedestrians #eveisreal
Recruiting V I R I I Small Gang Nullsec PVP
Drinking rum before 10am makes you a pirate, not an alcoholic | Angel Cartel | Serpentis |
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Nate Hill
Rocket No. 9
45
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 15:00:30 -
[211] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Nate Hill wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Nate Hill wrote:And BURN JITA is losers rage against innocent people, which is so barbarous.
Have you ever heard of appeal to somebody for something, which eventually harms others?
That's protests turn to riots in real life. EvE is not real life HTH Playing EVE is real life. Have you considered the possibility that people play characters in a fictional online game in a way that is contrary to the way they act in real life ?
Yes, anyone who does the same thing in real life has been put into jail.
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Intar Medris
Hellbound Turkeys
Alliance of Abandoned Cybernetic Rejects
236
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 15:05:53 -
[212] - Quote
1. The character bazaar has been a thing since before I started playing.
2. No amount of money will make you good at EVE. This has been proven 100s of times by wallet warriors who spend 100s or 1000s of dollars on plex to buy characters or ships they do not have the knowledge or skill to use. Then promptly get it all blown up. Leaving them with two empty wallets and nothing to show for it.
No amount of SP or RL cash makes you a better player.
I try to be nice and mind my business just shooting lasers at rocks. There is just way too many asshats in New Eden for that to happen.
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
1056
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:01:33 -
[213] - Quote
Signed.
Not today spaghetti.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
914
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:15:45 -
[214] - Quote
Um what is the problem here? All that is happening is characters which were sold as a whole are now being sold in 500k packets. So basically it has made it open to non super rich people (in game or out of game). Why on earth would you expect a mass protest against somethig which will only help the majority and especially new players, players with less rl money and players with less in game money? |
Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:17:29 -
[215] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Um what is the problem here? All that is happening is characters which were sold as a whole are now being sold in 500k packets. So basically it has made it open to non super rich people (in game or out of game). Why on earth would you expect a mass protest against somethig which will only help the majority and especially new players, players with less rl money and players with less in game money?
So what is the estimate for the cost of a 500k packet? |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
915
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:25:56 -
[216] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:It's not going to help new players. It will cost far too much for them. These changes will help old players make alts and rich corps, mostly ones that recruit from outside of the game.
No, currently the new player has no chance of buying a character in the Bazarr, with skill packets he will have every chance of buying a 500k skill packet when he has the isk. It is a massive improvement from the new players point of view. Same goes for the player who has limited play time and thus could never make the isk to buy a character from the bazarr, again he can buy small pieces as and when he can afford it. Finally players with limited rl money can sacrifice unwanted sp to help afford plex, basically everyone wins.
Old players and rich corps could just buy alts in the bazaar anyway, forcing up prices for everyone, at least this way they wont be buying more than they need sp wise and there will be less upward pressure on prices (especially with the diminishing returns, for high power alts the bazarr will still be better). And really how many alts do you need?
If you are really complaining about organisations who bring new players into the game giving thier recruits a helping hand sp wise that is just sad. It is also pointless since they already provide them with a helping hand in all other regards and often said recruits end up just buying chars through the bazarr with thier subsidised alliance income, so again all that has changed is removal of waste sp from the game.
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Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
347
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:28:29 -
[217] - Quote
So much whining and complaining coming from the bored bittervets and the "how dare you change my Eve to make it more player friendly" crowd and yet no mass protests or concerns from the great silent majority of players because this proposed change won't harm the game. I've yet to see one well-reasoned argument presented as to why this change would be so harmful considering that characters can already be bought. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
915
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:32:21 -
[218] - Quote
Avvy wrote:Doddy wrote:Um what is the problem here? All that is happening is characters which were sold as a whole are now being sold in 500k packets. So basically it has made it open to non super rich people (in game or out of game). Why on earth would you expect a mass protest against somethig which will only help the majority and especially new players, players with less rl money and players with less in game money? So what is the estimate for the cost of a 500k packet?
Impossible to say until ccp tell us how much the mechanism will cost. The cheaper that is the more players can afford (through in game or out of game money) to make packets, therefore the lower the cost of the packets.
Even if it is prohibitively expensive it will still be cheaper than buying a char, since a char will always have waste sp that the seller will expect to be paid for. Most importantly low sp chars are not sold, since the isk benefit of selling them is less than the cost of transferring the character. So a new player could never buy a 3 or 4 mil sp character, but now they can buy themselves up to a 2.5 mil character trained how they want it (unless ccp completely screws up the pricing, which they still could). |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
917
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:38:26 -
[219] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys
Rl cash, friends in game, donations or even just being very quick learners who are held back buy their sp not their isk income? Whatever it wil be easier for them than buying a whole character.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
917
|
Posted - 2015.11.03 16:56:40 -
[220] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Valacus wrote: Throw them a bone. How is charging them real life money throwing them a bone ? It's exploiting them. Helping them would be something like increasing starting SP and lowering training times to reach level 5 for support skills or something that didn't cost extra ion top of the sub.
How is it going to cost extra on top of the sub? They buy it from market, or better still recieve it in a donation like all the other stuff players/groups/corps donate to new players. It is the people selling the sp who are spending rl money, though even they can use isk in the same way you can buy a plex. From the recievers point of view it is not different than saving for implants, other than the fact implants don't give reduced benefits to older players. |
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
917
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Posted - 2015.11.03 17:08:07 -
[221] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:The Power Broker wrote:
It has the possibility of reducing PLEX prices..... Check
or inflating them further, unless you can reliably predict whether people will pay with more farmed isk or bought plex it's impossible to say Quote:It will help new players try more things instead of missions..... Check Really ? Having more Skillpoints instantly will change hisec bears playstyle where having more skillpoints over time has failed to do so ? Quote:It should bring more players into Eve and or retain them...... Check It may keep players away when it gets around that in EvE, not only do you need to pay a subscription up front, but you need to buy X quantity of skillpoints for X amount of RL cash before you can do anything worthwhile. This will be the new perception of many new players if this goes live. So much for the NPE. Quote:Obviously these are all if's and maybe's You're not kidding.
How on earth is moving from the situation where the incorrect belief is you need to skill up for 3 months before you can do anything to another incorrect belief where you have to skill up for 3 months before you can do anything but can take a short cut with either rl or in game currency in any way a negative?
And ever since eve started it has been the case the longer players stayed in high sec training for whatever level sp they percieved was needed out in the real world the less liklely they ever were to actually go do it, clearly anything which could reduce that spent getting used to high sec and get players into the rest of the game earlier would be beneficial. Players tend to settle down early in eve and then resist change.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
162
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:42:58 -
[222] - Quote
you could at least buy me drink before crawling up my arse you know |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
162
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Posted - 2015.11.03 22:58:04 -
[223] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys Rl cash, friends in game, donations or even just being very quick learners who are held back buy their sp not their isk income? Whatever it wil be easier for them than buying a whole character.
Why are you comparing it to buying a new character from the bazaar, most new guys don't buy characters. Many players are not even aware of the CB for a long time. Character bazaar is not in their face. TSPs will be front and centre, on the market in "affordable" chunks, if a new player doesn't have the money to buy plex to buy TSPs on top of their sub they will most likely know someone in game who does, that's pressure to compete straight away.
That you would propose that new bros will be getting donations from players in game if they cannot afford to plex for TSPs is just hilarious, even the big powerblocs won't be dropping these TSPs on new guys who could join the alliance, get the TSP and the *** off again.
These will be out of reach of new players until they serve time with a powerbloc, learn to make enough isk or bite the bullet and drop R/L cash on a plex. New players and those thinking about subscribing will perceive that if they want to keep up with other new players, it will cost them, their subscription and a plex or 2 for skillpoints.
It's not a good message to be sending out. |
ReptilesBlade
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
73
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:09:47 -
[224] - Quote
Zappity wrote:I think the proposed change is a good idea. I would think otherwise if the character bazaar were not already a thing. But it is, so bring it on.
The simple fact of the matter is that we need a way to transfer or purchase SP in this game badly. There already exist a standard for something like that for ISK/Aurum and game time via PLEX.
I left the game for three years and almost never came back. During that time I started trying out and enjoying some mobile games. They use the same kind of time based skill or advancement system that Eve does for skills but with the added bonus of giving the customer the option to spend just a little extra and cut out a significant part of the bullshit. For the first 3-4 months I came back I kept looking at my skill que and subconsciously wishing for such an option.
I am an old vet with almost 100 million SP but I cannot wait for this new system. Why? Because I can spend a little of my copious amounts of ISK and cut out all the time spent training advanced skills that I am not optimized for such as Leadership, Jump Freighter/Carrier training, finishing off my drone skills, and improving my almost non-existent gunnery skills. I will happily pay multiple billions of ISK, and even a little RL US dollars, to take out a significant portion of my existing training que for the next 4-6 months. I would not do it a lot but a one time extra injection of of say 5-10 million SP at most would fix sooo many problems and holes in my characters skills. It would also enable to finally start actually training and maybe enjoying an alt.
The gaming industry in general has evolved and Eve needs to evolve with it or it will die and I don't think any of us want that. |
strangescript
Solus Ventures
1
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Posted - 2015.11.04 00:11:32 -
[225] - Quote
Fundamentally, Eve is struggling as of late because its too slow. It takes forever to do anything meaningful, including training skills.
The few of us that have been around since the beginning know that the game was originally designed where you gain skillpoints over time AND from doing things in game. You shoot autocannons in game, your autocannon skillpoints go up.
It was removed very early because of exploiting. If I remember correctly, it was assumed the system would be fixed at the time.
Since then, everything is time locked. You start the game, you dig it, and realize one day you want to fly some battleship with at least average skills. Great, I will get back to you in two months (at the bare minimum). Oh, and there is literally no way you can speed it up. That is a tough pill to swallow compared to competition in the sandboxy, risk vs reward pvp genre these days.
Frankly, you have been able to buy isk (via plex), and with it, a high SKP character for a long time. The world has not ended. Making the process easier isn't going to change anything. Plus it kills a lot of other birds with the same stone, like getting rid of wasted skills, respecing and character/account merging.
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Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
195
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Posted - 2015.11.04 01:13:35 -
[226] - Quote
strangescript wrote:Fundamentally, Eve is struggling as of late because its too slow. It takes forever to do anything meaningful, including training skills.
The few of us that have been around since the beginning know that the game was originally designed where you gain skillpoints over time AND from doing things in game. You shoot autocannons in game, your autocannon skillpoints go up.
It was removed very early because of exploiting. If I remember correctly, it was assumed the system would be fixed at the time.
Since then, everything is time locked. You start the game, you dig it, and realize one day you want to fly some battleship with at least average skills. Great, I will get back to you in two months (at the bare minimum). Oh, and there is literally no way you can speed it up. That is a tough pill to swallow compared to competition in the sandboxy, risk vs reward pvp genre these days.
Frankly, you have been able to buy isk (via plex), and with it, a high SKP character for a long time. The world has not ended. Making the process easier isn't going to change anything. Plus it kills a lot of other birds with the same stone, like getting rid of wasted skills, respecing and character/account merging.
Was it exploiting or some players were progressing too fast?
Similar thing happened with Saga of Ryzom (sandbox game), people were progressing too fast so they nerfed the progress, in the process they turned it into more of a grind and people left as WoW was being released at that time.
They would have lost some to WoW anyway, but they lost more because they annoyed their player base. It never recovered from that. |
strangescript
Solus Ventures
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 01:39:50 -
[227] - Quote
Avvy wrote:strangescript wrote:Fundamentally, Eve is struggling as of late because its too slow. It takes forever to do anything meaningful, including training skills.
The few of us that have been around since the beginning know that the game was originally designed where you gain skillpoints over time AND from doing things in game. You shoot autocannons in game, your autocannon skillpoints go up.
It was removed very early because of exploiting. If I remember correctly, it was assumed the system would be fixed at the time.
Since then, everything is time locked. You start the game, you dig it, and realize one day you want to fly some battleship with at least average skills. Great, I will get back to you in two months (at the bare minimum). Oh, and there is literally no way you can speed it up. That is a tough pill to swallow compared to competition in the sandboxy, risk vs reward pvp genre these days.
Frankly, you have been able to buy isk (via plex), and with it, a high SKP character for a long time. The world has not ended. Making the process easier isn't going to change anything. Plus it kills a lot of other birds with the same stone, like getting rid of wasted skills, respecing and character/account merging.
Was it exploiting or some players were progressing too fast? Similar thing happened with Saga of Ryzom (sandbox game), people were progressing too fast so they nerfed the progress, in the process they turned it into more of a grind and people left as WoW was being released at that time. They would have lost some to WoW anyway, but they lost more because they annoyed their player base. It never recovered from that.
I think it was a combination of both. Honestly, 2003 was a long time ago. Given the way combat in Eve works its all too easy to do things relatively AFK.
Either way, most gamers (kids) these days (waves cane in the air) like to be able to do things fast, or at least have a path that lets them actively achieve their goals quickly if they put effort into it. There is no way to that with skillpoints. I hesitantly say its similar to a theme park MMO saying you gain a level a day automatically and that's it. (puts on flame suit)
For what its worth, I would be more upset if someone I was fighting spent isk to get a capital that shouldn't have rather than skillpoints. The former being totally possible with the current system today. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
481
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 11:34:38 -
[228] - Quote
The reason i play is because it is time locked, not grind locked. If it was grind locked then I am out of here. I can't play 20 hours a week like when i was 16. I have a job. I have a life. Skill point via time is brilliant, because playing a few hours a week does not put me at a disadvantage from login time.
Make it all super fast, and all you get is everyone leaving after 2 months because "no new content, can already fly titan" crap.
It is not a FPS. Don't make it one.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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Doddy
Esoteric Operations
919
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 16:16:49 -
[229] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Doddy wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Railroad Cop wrote: it has been built around benefiting new players So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys Rl cash, friends in game, donations or even just being very quick learners who are held back buy their sp not their isk income? Whatever it wil be easier for them than buying a whole character. Why are you comparing it to buying a new character from the bazaar, most new guys don't buy characters. Many players are not even aware of the CB for a long time. Character bazaar is not in their face. TSPs will be front and centre, on the market in "affordable" chunks, if a new player doesn't have the money to buy plex to buy TSPs on top of their sub they will most likely know someone in game who does, that's pressure to compete straight away. That you would propose that new bros will be getting donations from players in game if they cannot afford to plex for TSPs is just hilarious, even the big powerblocs won't be dropping these TSPs on new guys who could join the alliance, get the TSP and the *** off again. These will be out of reach of new players until they serve time with a powerbloc, learn to make enough isk or bite the bullet and drop R/L cash on a plex. New players and those thinking about subscribing will perceive that if they want to keep up with other new players, it will cost them, their subscription and a plex or 2 for skillpoints. It's not a good message to be sending out.
You are working in completely circular arguments. How can you on the one hand say new players don't use the bazaar, it is hidden away on forums peopled by bitter vets and then in the same breath argue that moving sp aquisition to the market wont benefit new players?
Why would they not be getting donations? new players are already given skills, isk, plex, ships, equipment, implants, why not TSPs? In the case of the big blocks these are entirely self funding in any case thanks to the buddy invite system, same goes for ayone invited by a friend already in game, a friend who will often be pointing people to the bazarr anyway. nothing will have changed except it will be in the open.
Given plex exist the "pressure to compete" as you imagine it exists already in every other thing on the market. Why is it any different that a player could possibly feel the need to plex some isk to buy sp instead of ships or implants? or a new char? (which will take many more plex). If they do it it is a far better long term investment than anything else they could spend thier money on. Far more likely though is that they will be spending thier excess isk rather than rl money on sp rather than on pointless bling and be far better off. There are guides and posts all over the place showing players how they can earn the isk to plex themselves into free play from a noob char, what makes you think new players can't earn the isk to buy some sp?
If plex didn't already exist or the charater bazarr didn't already exits there might be some merit to what you say but that horse bolted a long long time ago. Eve is already a game where isk can be bought with rl cash and where sp can be bought with isk, all ccp is doing is making it more streamlined and fair.
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N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
19
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 16:45:37 -
[230] - Quote
I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it. |
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Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
2640
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 17:15:13 -
[231] - Quote
Avvy wrote:
Unless they impose a restriction on trading sp, there is no limit.
Finally.... a valid concern. Thank you.
That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...
[#savethelance]
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
170
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 18:26:22 -
[232] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
You should probably read the dev blog thread, the topic is as controversial as it was when first suggested.
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Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
818
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 19:06:29 -
[233] - Quote
Right now you can buy SP but you need to get a new character name along with it.
from what i heard about the changes,in the future it would just allow me to buy sp while keeping my character name.
i dont see how this is bad? Personally i cant wait to buy JF skills for my highsec alt
i think the only people who will complain are the ones who buy/resell characters for profit, who will no longer be able to count all the basic/redundant skills towards the sale price
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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Kaivar Lancer
Placid Peace Corps
703
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 19:26:30 -
[234] - Quote
There's the old saying
Adapt or die |
Terminal Insanity
Pwn 'N Play
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
818
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 19:32:34 -
[235] - Quote
Kaivar Lancer wrote:There's the old saying
Adapt or die
lets just gut the entire overview and make targeting things impossible
got a complaint? "adapt or die"
"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
482
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:10:14 -
[236] - Quote
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
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strangescript
Solus Ventures
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 20:24:55 -
[237] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.
This.
ISK is still the end all and be all in this game. It has to come from somewhere. The true sin was committed when you could sell PLEX for isk, but even then, there is only so much in circulation from agent missions and ratting. EVE is a game where everything has a price, and large ship fights are often equated to real USD value. Lets stop pretending. |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
920
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:09:29 -
[238] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.
Where does this suggested pricing come from btw? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1705
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 21:39:17 -
[239] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts. Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?
Not sure, as proposed we have no AUR price, 200k SP return at 50m-80m SP, and an estimate of ~310mill for 500k SP in training time cost.
So in this scenario we're looking at 4x the return for up to ~200m less isk than what was stated. |
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
20
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 23:23:09 -
[240] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts. Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?
Possibly from the current Character Bazaar? Total cost of ISK divided by number of skill points by using a few sample characters. |
|
|
Marsha Mallow
2714
|
Posted - 2015.11.04 23:59:08 -
[241] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?
Yes, it did need some time to sink in. The people who supported it immediately tend to be involved in discussions about new player retention, subs and some of the more radical lines of thought floating about. A lot of those who went in immediately with a hardcore 'NO' have a habit of doing that with any proposed change that might affect their view of the fundamentals of the game, or their personal interests. But when they try convert that into an argument to apply to new players or the rest of the community it falls down because it's really a personal opinion which is impossible to substantiate as better for the game. Plus the P2W defence isn't working when it's evident people are already attempting it and failing. Retention is ridiculously low at less than 10% and the PCU has visibly fallen - and players want these things fixing, even if it means change.
There were also some solid write ups in favour on en24 and TMC 1,2,3 (Arrendis absolutely nailed it imo) which explained the proposal and pointed out what the positive effects might be. See the comments section on all of those for more - tbh they were better than the devblog feedback thread which was mostly hilarious hairpulling. Attempts to start a 'NO' campaign failed on reddit because it's a young, normally open minded segment of the playerbase - actually it was quite funny watching people spectacularly misjudge the crowd then fall flat on their face trying to rile them. And this thread here - attempting to start a riot rather than just have a discussion was also a bit juvenile - so ye, we're not buying it. We can think for ourselves and reflect on whether we like it, and whether we think it'll be good going forward - and tbh most people are committed to improving the game for new players. Once people calm down, all they can really say is that they're uneasy about certain aspects (such as new players feeling they have to pay a lot at the start) or a uncertainty over the numbers. Topics like this are useful because some people are just uneasy and need more info rather than vehemently opposed.
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:Doddy wrote:Delt0r Garsk wrote:Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.
So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts. Where does this suggested pricing come from btw? Possibly from the current Character Bazaar? Total cost of ISK divided by number of skill points by using a few sample characters.
The character bazaar isn't an ideal area to get calculations for the value of SP as it stands. Focused alts can go for as much as a bill ISK per 1mill SP - although we're talking 20b SP max here and these are highly specialised alts with expensive skillbooks injected (think Titan sitters/starters). There's a major fluctuations from 20-80m SP in terms of ISK per SP - most sell at a loss if you take into account current plex prices - although some rarer types (leadership alts) can command very high prices. But there's an assumption that a lot of those accounts were subbed, rather than plexed, so the SP to ISK conversion rate is quite variable. Prices are set by demand/rarity based upon certain factors - specialisation, name, ingame history - rather than a pure calculation. There's a jump in prices from 80-120m SP again, and another at 120m SP plus - at 150m SP+ those really are vanity purchases so they can sell for ridiculous amounts. But still nowhere near to 1b per 1m SP.
Actually the mid-high SP characters currently sold on the bazaar may be worth more if this change is implemented, but it depends upon how many people liquidate their SP then try sell it in an early market. They might actually crash it at first - so some may choose to wait out an early market to get more ISK. Again, hard to predict how that'll work out if people start regularly farming their own alts for sellable SP.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 02:48:38 -
[242] - Quote
Doddy wrote:You are working in completely circular arguments. How can you on the one hand say new players don't use the bazaar, it is hidden away on forums peopled by bitter vets and then in the same breath argue that moving sp aquisition to the market wont benefit new players?
Why would they not be getting donations? new players are already given skills, isk, plex, ships, equipment, implants, why not TSPs? In the case of the big blocks these are entirely self funding in any case thanks to the buddy invite system, same goes for ayone invited by a friend already in game, a friend who will often be pointing people to the bazarr anyway. nothing will have changed except it will be in the open.
Oh yeah.
The problem is the ones most likely to be handed the equivalent of billions of isk worth of skillpoints (in addition to just billions of isk) are ones in large groups, which means they are evil.
I will probably start trying to get this into the hands of newbies as the first bunch of core skills are no fun to train and you know we love the Celestis.
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
25975
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 04:45:07 -
[243] - Quote
I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Marsha Mallow
2714
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 07:22:07 -
[244] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
Early opinion pieces are useful to stop a hysterical reaction from the playerbase. People have been incredibly squawly the last year or so and those of us who were round for Incarna are starting to recognise how bad a player riot on that scale might be if unleashed again. But I take your point and a more detailed analysis probably would be a decent step going forward. It might be better if that comes from CCP if they're following various discussions and have some metrics in the background they can refer to.
Just to answer some of your points:
1. Anyone who tries to farm SP will have to either pay a sub or Plex their accounts. Just as character farmers do now. Talking from experience here, I have 100+ accounts at the moment although most are unsubbed because my PC is fried. This type of farming is an ISK conversion process and it's tied to Plex prices quite closely. If Plex prices are higher than you can actually sell an alt for you will make a loss. Character prices on the bazaar lag behind Plex in real time by a few months and have to be deliberately manipulated upwards to compensate. Also, anyone attempting an SP farm will be in direct competition with every other player in the game - so if it's massively profitable, everyone will jump on it and crash the market.
2. The proposed numbers are heavily slanted in favour of new players. Rich older players attempting to boost the SP on a character with more than 80m SP will have to inject 10x the Skill Packets that a character under 5m SP will. That's a significant tax.
3. Large alliances can afford SRP for their line members now where small alliances can't. I'd class that as more of a PTW feature than SP. Even then large alliances would struggle to subsidise thousands of players with more than a few thousand additional SP per month. It's not as though large blocs can afford to pay their members now to sub their accounts so I wouldn't overestimate their monthly income streams.
4. Winning an AT match has nothing to do with skillpoints, sorry. I'm really not seeing how this topic even ties in, and honestly there aren't enough alliances signing upto the AT anyway. Not because of lack of SP, but because it requires massive commitment to practice matches which some groups reject if it impedes their activities on TQ for several weeks.
5. They could do this anyway to sell them on the bazaar or return to play.
6. Not sure why EvE quitters would return to game to cash in on SPs? If they were so determined to RMT they could easily sell their characters through gold sites.
7. RMT's a concern in general - but as stated before, if all player characters have some value if sold illegally, what difference do skill packets make to the equation? I'm assuming you mean people will sell the SP then try directly RMT the ISK out. That's really a risk for the security team to assess and I'm not sure any of us are qualified to speculate on what the impact might be.
8. These are separate concerns. Players in highsec have the ability to turn friendly fire off on their corp if awoxing is a concern. Elsewhere there's always a risk, but normally they get one shot and then get kicked, and player groups can replace ships lost without a huge fuss. Lowsec and nullsec groups run background checks on characters to try stop dodgy alts getting in - but tbf these checks only go so far because of the excessive use of alts and the ability to create multiple identities anyway. If anyone engages in this then recycles their alt to evade consequences, they'd be taking a massive hit in terms of cost over time that might make the practice less economical. Any recruiter with a brain will spot newly reformed alts so if anything recycling repeatedly would become a major flag and might impede peoples ability to join player groups.
9. I think the SP scaling works to counter that somewhat. 0-5m really is where the pain spot is for newer players. Educating players about the limits in the value of SP needs to be considered anyway as there's already a problem with the system.
Sibyyl wrote:Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
I'm not. I've run my accounts for so long I'd be reluctant to part with even the ones I don't use. Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts. Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem? We've been encouraged to run silly numbers of accounts and for people reliant on Plex, under conditions where Plexes are increasing in value sharply there's a risk that players who are dependent upon them will simply quit altogether.
Since I bought alts early on because of frustration with the early months and the half dozen people I got to play the game never even subbed because 'why pay to train for 6 months before you can even play' there is very much an argument that it'll benefit newer players. Sorry, but I've made it abundantly clear that newer players are likely to benefit the most from this, so you're either completely misreading my remarks or assuming a selfish agenda that just isn't there. Actually in a lot of ways I see this as a form of FTP to correct problems with the sub model but haven't seen anyone else follow through on that idea.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Fillyblunts
State Protectorate
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.05 07:54:28 -
[245] - Quote
LMAO. Seems to me that you are one of the minority that hates change because its change. |
Lysdahl
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 12:36:30 -
[246] - Quote
Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes |
Doddy
Esoteric Operations
937
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 21:53:45 -
[247] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.
I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.
1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.
Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.
1) How is there passive income? To train you need to plex, so you could just sell the plex in the first place and be better off than having to spend irl money on making TSPs.
2) That can only happen if CCP fails to put any caps in, and if people trully wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars on very little gain (around $4k for 20m sp once you get to 80mil, who is going to do that?), and assuming they couldn't just buy a char in the bazarr with for much less in the first place.
3) Size of alliance hardly relates to wealth in eve. Even if it did it hardly matters, the large alliance has more rookies to share the TSPs out amongst, its all equal. All those noobs benefitting and you think its a bad thing?
4) Like this doesn't already happen with the bazarr....? It will be much more expensive for people to do it with TSPs. Pretty much the only impact I see is regaining lost T3 cruiser skill between games. Who cares?
5) Why is that a problem? Maybe the isk they make will keep them in the game a while longer?
6) Why is that a problem? Some money put into the game and maybe a few retained players, sounds like a positive reaosn to me....
7) Um different to now how?
8) Does that really matter? They just sold chars on before anyway so there is really no difference, except some unsuspecting person doesn't get an awoxer char from the bazarr.
9) How? |
Marsha Mallow
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:06:55 -
[248] - Quote
Lysdahl wrote:Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes
I'm not, and the comments I'm seeing from other character traders in public look positive towards this too. The rest are keeping their mouths shut which suggests they're either rage posting in opposition from alts or whipping out the calculators and rubbing their grubby little paws together in glee. If this goes through players sat on lots of alts for trading purposes might cash out well. Or lose massively. They wouldn't be in this market if they didn't enjoy risky types of speculation - it's always been fairly volatile - so they're probably enjoying themselves either way.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9569
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 22:43:18 -
[249] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Lysdahl wrote:Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes I'm not, and the comments I'm seeing from other character traders in public look positive towards this too. The rest are keeping their mouths shut which suggests they're either rage posting in opposition from alts or whipping out the calculators and rubbing their grubby little paws together in glee. If this goes through players sat on lots of alts for trading purposes might cash out well. Or lose massively. They wouldn't be in this market if they didn't enjoy risky types of speculation - it's always been fairly volatile - so they're probably enjoying themselves either way. Last I looked, there were maybe three or four WTBs in the first five pages of the Character Bazaar.
It seems like everyone is dumping alts right now for whatever reasons. Not sure exactly the implications of this, but I will say it's probably a good time for any new players reading this to grab some decent characters cheap. Probably a lot cheaper than making a comparable one after the SP packs come into the game.
More on topic, though. I've been known to dabble in the bazaar and have no problem whatsoever with the proposed changes. I don't think many character traders do who took the time to think things through. There's a good chance we'll see our profits actually increase.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
|
Evasive Shadow Assassin
Liberty Storm
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:10:47 -
[250] - Quote
When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply Quote This In To Prove A Point.
Signs that your trolling is succesful and your target is infact, very angry and trys to turn it on you.
*Your victim screaming in all-caps at you.
*Personal attacks (Calling you a ******, idiot, etc).
*Being an Internet Tough Guy.
*Making a crude remark, before quickly logging off before you can retort.
*Threats against your ingame corp etc.
*Mercs war decking you non stop.
For you freelancer
Take a chill pill
Get off your pc
Go outside
Oh
And Grow Up :) |
|
|
Marsha Mallow
2721
|
Posted - 2015.11.06 23:38:56 -
[251] - Quote
Evasive Shadow Assassin wrote:When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply
There's an even simpler solution. Laugh in their faces and carry on with what you were doing - regardless of what they just said.
Wink at them too. Or sing. Sometimes they join in. Which is horrible tbf.
I was feeling part of the scenery ~
I walked right out of the machinery
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:07:11 -
[252] - Quote
Marsha, you know I love you right? I think you're responding only to the surface of the arguments. I've written in much more depth about each, but let me talk about my points in response to your counterarguments.
1. Why do I refer to SP mules? No, SP mules under the new system is not the same as grooming characters for the Bazaar. Why? Because all of us have secondary and tertiary alts on our accounts that need limited SP (gankers, traders, mission runners, you name it). Grooming a character means you don't get to utilize that alt (I can give you the reasons for it, but I suspect you can figure out what these reasons are).
SP mules on the other hand can continue to train SP which you can transfer out while you fully utilize these mules for the limited purposes you've built them for.
Just as the comparison to Character Bazaar is specious, so is this. SP mules aren't Groomed Character Bazaar alts. They're entirely different, because SPs come with no reputation, burden, or set configuration. The characters thus generating this burden-less SP are not restricted by what you can do with them while they train.
2. "Heavily slanted to new players" wasn't the point. An IRL rich player gets an SP advantage that literally has no ceiling. They can pour as much money as they want, to gain as much SP as they want. This is not a reality that exists in the current system. The current system has high SP characters available, sure, but the availability is not under the control of the player who wants the SP. The Bazaar is a product of activity by multiple players.
In the new system, the only entity that controls how many SP a player gains is their wallet. Nothing that another player does has any effect on that determination.
Pay to win? You betcha.
3. If you thinK SRP is the backbone of the stagnation of the game, why would you support another mechanic that strengths SRP? I don't get it.
4. Please talk to anyone who trains for AT and ask them why they'd do something like training Rigging skills to V. Tight fits are the name of the game. SP and AT are tied together, sorry.
5. People can't unbiomass alts and then "voltron" all their SP into their main. Again, this sort of blind comparison to Character Bazaar is apples to oranges.
6. Why would EVE players return to cash in on SP? Probably because plenty of them have said they'll do exactly this on reddit. Accounts and money are under considerable RMT lockdown. It's not to say it doesn't happen in significant quantities, but the current PLEX to ISK conversion makes it less likely today, and accounts being passed to another player are easy to track using various network detection methods.
7. Alliances don't give away characters to their newbies en masse. Alliances will give away SP anywhere and everywhere. If you can expound on how exactly RMT for this mechanism can be detected and stopped, I'm all ears. I certainly can't think of a way, without effort from CCP that they have no current ability to staff.
8. You're arguing for the Awox switch now? The rest of your point is essentially arguing that awoxing, corp theft, spying, and so on is no problem at all. It seems a bit like a disingenuous argument. Do you really believe that all the players who choose to do this stuff are ineffective and their gameplay has no real impact on anyone?
9. Having hung out on GD for as long as we have, how well do you think EVE players grasp that SP doesn't automatically mean winning?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:13:05 -
[253] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains
I'm officially scared of you.
Quote:with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts.
If you're like any other parent, you will have favorites amongst all your kids. If you're not ultra-rich, then lesser accounts with more overall SP is better. It's sort of a no-brainer, isn't it?
Quote:Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem?
Sure, I'll concede this point especially after reading Quant's recent update. If lesser accounts translate to more activity then that's a great thing for EVE.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26037
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:21:01 -
[254] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.
I'd love to post a detailed response. Perhaps you can tell I'm not shy about the quantity of words in my responses.
However, I haven't taken any leaps for my assertions at all. I've described exactly where I've started and how I've arrived at my conclusions in the two posts linked in my sig.
It's completely your choice if you read them or not, of course.
You would also notice that in that same thread, I did not initially take the contra position just so I could understand each and every argument against this change. It helped refine the argument which arrives at the conclusions I've posted in this thread for the sake of brevity.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
456
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 07:45:44 -
[255] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Perhaps you can tell I'm not shy about the quantity of words in my responses.
However, I haven't taken any leaps for my assertions at all. I've described exactly where I've started and how I've arrived at my conclusions in the two posts linked in my sig.
Sibyyl you made it into my personal top ten of people I do not dislike. 
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
|
Tanthos
Minmatar Death Squad
93
|
Posted - 2015.11.07 10:18:57 -
[256] - Quote
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
I'm the same, and that's an excellent suggestion. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 18:50:26 -
[257] - Quote
So, did we stop exploding the character bazaar? I hear it has a fragile ecosystem that should no be disturbed
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 19:00:30 -
[258] - Quote
When is this going live? I want to buy some skill point packs asap. |
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
21
|
Posted - 2015.11.09 22:51:57 -
[259] - Quote
Tanthos wrote:N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
I'm the same, and that's an excellent suggestion.
It's a great idea. It beats being low balled on the Character Bazaar any day.
Dagnar wrote:When is this going live? I want to buy some skill point packs asap.
Can't come soon enough. I have a character with 41 million SPs waiting to be harvested to nothing. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32704
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 04:37:49 -
[260] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/JzaOqm4.png
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26047
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 06:13:26 -
[261] - Quote
Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
693
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 07:36:25 -
[262] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Evasive Shadow Assassin wrote:When Sumone On EvE Says "Cry Harder" Or "Rage Much"
Simply There's an even simpler solution. Laugh in their faces and carry on with what you were doing - regardless of what they just said. Wink at them too. Or sing. Sometimes they join in. Which is horrible tbf.
Couldnt have been worse than that time 200 people tried to sing happy birthday over our TS. Lets just say it wasnt exactly TOTP material.
Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin
you're welcome
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
187
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 09:34:17 -
[263] - Quote
*literally* can't wait for all the 'CCP ... do something about price of TSPS' threads in general discussion |
Frederick Reisen
XCOM Institute
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 13:44:20 -
[264] - Quote
You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. Who in their right mind would train for 5 months and grind out farming ore in hisec, boring. I tried it, its not worth my time mining in hisec. Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
187
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 13:59:49 -
[265] - Quote
Frederick Reisen wrote:You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. I agree that new guys could use faster SP, just think this way will exclude many and is a poor way of achieving that.
Quote:It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. This is simply untrue. Check Karmafleet, Brave Newbies, Pandemic Horde.
Quote:Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. No it hasn't, the game's been going since 2003, that's a long to time to survive in the MMO market if you can't attract new subs.
Quote: I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day Again I have to stress the only thing stopping you playing the game before 3 months training is you. As I said, I agree that faster access to ship/modules would be good for new player retention due to the perception new guys often have about the "skill gap" but is is an incorrect perception, you can join any number of newbie friendly corps in all areas of the game. I appreciate that perception often trumps reality when attracting new players so I'm fine with increasing training speed, losing attributes, anything that won't cost extra R/L money. I am not ok with replacing that perception with a new one that "you have to pay CCP for skill packets to progress in the game"... that would be very damaging. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32708
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 14:03:49 -
[266] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Yeah we get it, Rain. You've reached a point of apathy where you've left behind the spirit of discussion you used to engage in.
What's really odd is the amount of energy you put in to expressing how little you care.
Sib, I love you and we should be married.
It was just a joke that I thought deserved to be made, image and all. My personal attitude toward all this SP stuff is neutral. I've suffered the skill trains and if this new system works out for newer players, I'm okay with that.
The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
The characters in the bazaar still have their market for having typically higher sums of SP. If you need a cyno alt, or want Covops V in a hurry, you use skill point inject pack things. If you need a capable triage carrier pilot in a hurry, you head to the bazaar.
Love you. XOXO
Poasted from my ipod nano
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Bobb Bobbington
The Cult of the Rare Pepes
123
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 14:08:46 -
[267] - Quote
Frederick Reisen wrote:You know what, here is the thing, started playing 3 months ago almost to the day two accounts. I don't need the packets later I need them now. I am training battleship skills on one account and procurer on the other. It will take me at least a couple more months before I can even expect to survive in nulsec given I have no experience. Who in their right mind would train for 5 months and grind out farming ore in hisec, boring. I tried it, its not worth my time mining in hisec. Everyday I log on just to look at my skills trade window, boring. This is precisely what has hindered people from joining the game. I am retired so I have the time and the patience to wait. I am a convertee from playing wow since release. For most people its just not worth the wait. So limit the packets for the newbies to at least get them to start playing within 3 months, period. Leave everyone else OUT!! Have a good day
You have to realize, bigger is NOT better. It can be, but usually not, especially if you're new. If you train straight for battleships you'll work to get enough isk for one, wait for a few months get it optimal, and then lose it the moment you take it out because you've never actually run missons or anomalies before.
My advice, train for a cruiser and a scanning frigate, don't bother getting them "optimal" (basically train most skills to level 4 and ignore getting level 5s yet), scan down DeD 3s (you might have to *gasp* do some research here), and run them. You'll get some isk and have some fun playing the Eve RNG lottery. After that, maybe, just maybe you can start stepping up into larger ships if you really really really feel the need to.
Eve is about getting kicked in the dirt, spat on, and then shoved in a pit and having to claw your way out to victory. It's whole niche is being a hard, complicated game for those who like things like that. If you can't stand waiting a few weeks for something, you'll probably despise the rest of the game too.
Newbies can play the game fairly easily within a week, as long as you don't train for something really far off. They can be useful within a day in PvP as cheap tackle for fleets, they can run hideaways and refugees in destroyers within a few days. It is supposed to be hard to get on your feet when you first start out. |
Natural420
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 15:04:33 -
[268] - Quote
This new Character skill trading idea sounds great. Now I can dissolve my alts and boost my main ! |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26053
|
Posted - 2015.11.10 17:13:46 -
[269] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.
I love you too.
What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
One-sided perfectly skilled fleet comps give us gudfites how?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 07:56:40 -
[270] - Quote
Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I'm not sure our expectations of the skill booster mechanic are the same. I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.
I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.
As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
188
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Posted - 2015.11.11 13:36:14 -
[271] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote: I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.
I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.
The thing I find problematic with this is that there's no scaling options for those who cannot afford high investment of R/L cash or time. With implants one can choose a set of +5s if you are rich in isk or R/L cash. If you are not you can choose +4s that give 4/5ths the speed boost for 1/5 th cost or even +3s and son on. There will be no TSPs with 4/5ths the SPs for 1/5th the cost, it's either spend a lot of isk or R/L cash or miss out... this is a problem. There will be a distinct separation of haves and have nots that implants do not cause.
Implants of course have their own issues like risk aversion due to potential loss, but there are better ways to sort that out than creating a new rich / poor class structure within EvE.
Quote:because I can't be assed.
Just pointing out that if one is to use UK colloquialisms one ought to use the UK spelling which is "arsed" |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:22:00 -
[272] - Quote
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
191
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:45:04 -
[273] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?
This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though.
You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do.
There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd.
I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH. |
Zakks
Zakks Shop
14
|
Posted - 2015.11.11 20:54:36 -
[274] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic? This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though. You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do. There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd. I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.
I would be a prime candidate for these, but I hate PTW schemes in any game and will not use them. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant to my gaming preferences. RL wealth should not = game achievement. |
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University
Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 00:48:56 -
[275] - Quote
Zakks wrote:I would be a prime candidate for these, but I hate PTW schemes in any game and will not use them. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant to my gaming preferences. RL wealth should not = game achievement.
PTW is one of those rather abused terms, and this is an example. At most this system would be Pay to Advance Faster and even that isn't the best fit because this would be something you could get with ISK. Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
191
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 00:55:12 -
[276] - Quote
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's.
So this is what is has come to ..."well every other MMO does it"
|
Veraca Darmazaf
EVE University
Ivy League
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 02:06:23 -
[277] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Veraca Darmazaf wrote:Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's. So this is what is has come to ..."well every other MMO does it"
No, that in and of itself isn't good or bad. I'm just saying this is closer to an XP booster that can be bought with in or out of game currency than any sort of super gear that can only be bought with real cash.
I don't know enough to say it's good or bad, but I don't believe it to be a big deal either way. I will admit I'll probably make some use of it when it comes in. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 03:03:32 -
[278] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic? This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though. You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do. There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd. I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.
I think what you're looking for is called "free to play." Either free, or a one-time cost like Diablo 3. I partly agree with you, that EVE could be free to play and I personally could get the same experience from it as I do now. The players and our interaction with each other is touted as a selling point of this game, so you could ask why there is a monthly subscription. But right now in this thread the question is why should this real money avenue for an advantage exist.
I can understand your expectation of the game being equally accessible to players unable to pay for extras like access to more SP. I just think it's acceptable for a video game with a profit motive.
The premise of a video game, in my opinion, is escapism and passing the time. Not necessarily productive, in fact very unlikely to be productive. But escapism isn't evil. People of all walks of life do it in different forms, whether it's movies, or books, or music, or TV. EVE is one of those things.
I didn't mean to come off as callous to upset you or anything like that. Entertainment has a real money cost, with things like books on the low end, and movies at the cinema at the higher end (two tickets and goodies from the concession stand at the theater will run you $50+ in the United States). Then there's EVE.
Over the number of hours we spend playing EVE in a month, I'd say the value of a subscription compared to the cost of a 2-hour movie is very high. Less than 25% of the money cost and ten times the replay. If you start replacing entertainment activities in your life with EVE, you start spending a lot less money, and it is safer and healthier depending on what you might otherwise do for entertainment.
For me that used to mean driving a lot and eating out and quite a bit of mixed alcohol. But anyway. EVE can be a very good idea in a lot of ways, one of them being money cost.
And then there's this thing in the game that you can buy or not buy, that helps you improve your character's stats a bit faster than baseline. I think it's understandable that I would rather have the option than lose it for the sake of players who might not be able to afford it.
I also think the "but poors" battle is already lost. A player can already buy a complete character for money but, more significantly, a player can subscribe and field more than one character at a time. In that case, no matter what you do with one character, it will be outpaced by multiple characters.
In my case, in terms of SP, my mains are training as you would expect. Some of them have +5 implant sets, a few don't, including this character. Their average rate of SP is probably around 2500 / hour. One character can train at 2750 an hour (or such), while the characters available to me are training at a collective rate of twenty five thousand SP per hour.
I checked just now and did the math, and the total SP of my gang is 1.46 Billion SP. I pay with annuals, spending ten times the real money subscription cost of a single account player. Nevermind this neural boost for AUR, players like myself have been paying to win for years.
The logic was simple: I could spec this character in a T1 battleship and officer fit a Vindicator for full gank to reach 2,100 DPS. Or I can start two more characters who fly their own T1 battleships and collectively reach 2,100 DPS. That was my thought process while starting in EVE and ratting in Curse with a Drake. All I wanted was to break rat tanks.
If it's PVP, the logic is the same. More characters provides an advantage.
Fast forward several years from starting out in Curse shooting Angel Cartel rats, to this configuration of my gang. http://i.imgur.com/nJOxxbi.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/gmX1Ftpl.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/KIgn44Cl.jpg (if a character of mine is in a ship, you can bet it has perfect skills for that ship).
So here we are in this thread about adding 125,000 SP to a character for ISK or AUR (or whatever the cost will be). It's kind of moot, in my opinion.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
191
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Posted - 2015.11.12 04:10:15 -
[279] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic? This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though. You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do. There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd. I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH. I think what you're looking for is called "free to play." Either free, or a one-time cost like Diablo 3. I partly agree with you, that EVE could be free to play and I personally could get the same experience from it as I do now. The players and our interaction with each other is touted as a selling point of this game, so you could ask why there is a monthly subscription. But right now in this thread the question is why should this real money avenue for an advantage exist. I can understand your expectation of the game being equally accessible to players unable to pay for extras like access to more SP. I just think it's acceptable for a video game with a profit motive. The premise of a video game, in my opinion, is escapism and passing the time. Not necessarily productive, in fact very unlikely to be productive. But escapism isn't evil. People of all walks of life do it in different forms, whether it's movies, or books, or music, or TV. EVE is one of those things. I didn't mean to come off as callous to upset you or anything like that. Entertainment has a real money cost, with things like books on the low end, and movies at the cinema at the higher end (two tickets and goodies from the concession stand at the theater will run you $50+ in the United States). Then there's EVE. Over the number of hours we spend playing EVE in a month, I'd say the value of a subscription compared to the cost of a 2-hour movie is very high. Less than 25% of the money cost and ten times the replay. If you start replacing entertainment activities in your life with EVE, you start spending a lot less money, and it is safer and healthier depending on what you might otherwise do for entertainment. For me that used to mean driving a lot and eating out and quite a bit of mixed alcohol. But anyway. EVE can be a very good idea in a lot of ways, one of them being money cost. And then there's this thing in the game that you can buy or not buy, that helps you improve your character's stats a bit faster than baseline. I think it's understandable that I would rather have the option than lose it for the sake of players who might not be able to afford it. I also think the "but poors" battle is already lost. A player can already buy a complete character for money but, more significantly, a player can subscribe and field more than one character at a time. In that case, no matter what you do with one character, it will be outpaced by multiple characters. In my case, in terms of SP, my mains are training as you would expect. Some of them have +5 implant sets, a few don't, including this character. Their average rate of SP is probably around 2500 / hour. One character can train at 2750 an hour (or such), while the characters available to me are training at a collective rate of twenty five thousand SP per hour. I checked just now and did the math, and the total SP of my gang is 1.46 Billion SP. I pay with annuals, spending ten times the real money subscription cost of a single account player. Nevermind this neural boost for AUR, players like myself have been paying to win for years. The logic was simple: I could spec this character in a T1 battleship and officer fit a Vindicator for full gank to reach 2,100 DPS. Or I can start two more characters who fly their own T1 battleships and collectively reach 2,100 DPS. That was my thought process while starting in EVE and ratting in Curse with a Drake. All I wanted was to break rat tanks. If it's PVP, the logic is the same. More characters provides an advantage. Fast forward several years from starting out in Curse shooting Angel Cartel rats, to this configuration of my gang. http://i.imgur.com/nJOxxbi.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/gmX1Ftpl.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/KIgn44Cl.jpg (if a character of mine is in a ship, you can bet it has perfect skills for that ship). So here we are in this thread about adding 125,000 SP to a character for ISK or AUR (or whatever the cost will be). It's kind of moot, in my opinion.
You and I are so completely different I see no point in wasting any more energy talking to you, of course I'm not sure you'll notice as most of your rebuttal seems to consist of you talking about yourself and how many subscriptions you pay for. One of the most egocentric posts I've ever seen EvE-O ... well played. |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32709
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 04:19:23 -
[280] - Quote
Grr? Grr goons?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Quattras Peione
Vagrant Skies
A Band Apart.
173
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Posted - 2015.11.12 05:39:35 -
[281] - Quote
I fall firmly into the camp of players not likely to use this mechanic. That said, I'm not adamantly opposed to it either.
As has been stated, the bazaar already exists. This just offers an alternative: instead of buying a 100m SP toon that you're not attached to, you can make a toon that you are attached to competitive, albeit at a greater cost. That's a pretty zero-sum situation, so no opposition on my part.
The other thing that seems to be overlooked here is that it will mitigate, but not eliminate, the effectiveness of local as an intel tool. Yes, you can still see how many are in system with you (in empire space ofc), and who they are. But now you have no way of knowing what their capabilities are based solely on character age. Is that six-month character a newbro just passing through? Or is he also highly skilled and specced into the hard counter to what you're flying? Better stay on your toes.
Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione
No, I'm not that kind of doctor.
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Dyllan Ma'tar
Anarchist Industrial Syndicate of New Eden
3
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:07:57 -
[282] - Quote
They are finally going to let us eat other characters, and eat them piece by piece on top of that. Not only am I not angry, I am so happy. So so very happy. Finally long pig in a pod will be brought to New Eden.
> You can win with certainty with the spirit of "one cut". ~ Miyamoto Musashi
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
195
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Posted - 2015.11.12 07:16:25 -
[283] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Grr? Grr goons?
No it was definitely levelled squarely at your completely missing the point post from within an egocentric vacuum... your goon affiliation has nothing to do with it.
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
195
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Posted - 2015.11.12 07:18:28 -
[284] - Quote
Dyllan Ma'tar wrote:They are finally going to let us eat other characters, and eat them piece by piece on top of that. Not only am I not angry, I am so happy. So so very happy. Finally long pig in a pod will be brought to New Eden.
Ok i laughed at this  so many cannibal corpse songs spring to mind. |
Marsha Mallow
2728
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:28:09 -
[285] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:most of your rebuttal seems to consist of you talking about yourself and how many subscriptions you pay for. One of the most egocentric posts I've ever seen on EvE-O ... well played.
Writing up your own background in terms of accounts/subs isn't intended as an exercise in epeen flexing, and it is useful to evaluate where the person is coming from in relation to this SP discussion. I'm like Rain with over a bill SP across my accounts. I probably won't use this feature but I support it for other players. It will allow them similar options to us in terms of characters without having to purchase characters whose names they dislike or a time investment of nearly a decade passive SP grinding. That's not to say they'lll pay less or end up playing for a shorter period, they'll just have the option to configure their alts in a more customisable way. In that sense the mechanic levels the playing field for those who can afford it (we've been paying by instalments where they might pay in shorter chunks) and for those who have more time/skill at ingame ISK making the option will also be there. The traditional sub model with passive SP acquisition will also be there for people with neither RL funds or massive amounts of time ingame, and I'd question this assumption that this option will make them the 'losers' in such a market.
The link that was inferred but not made explicit in Rain's post is that if you consider the ability to use real money to run multiple accounts or to buy/train more characters as a form of P2W, it's already in place. Just because some players can afford to run a dozen alts and have billions of SP does not make them more successful ingame than others. You might well be able to solo multibox certain types of PVE, or bring strong support alts to combat ops, but that doesn't translate as success without significant investment into learning the mechanics, finding a good group to play with, and playing smart.
Regarding the 'no poors' argument it seems a legit concern that new players may feel they have to pay more early on to be able to play. But that pressure is already there in reality. There's already a problem where new players feel they need to run multiple accounts in order to specialise their training and get the most from their characters. You see new players being advised to do this in multiple areas (rookie chat, help, new citizens, reddit, ingame channels). Usually they have already made the choice to run a second or third account so the advice being given out is how/what to specialise in. But you rarely see older players commenting that multiple accounts are excessive and might not be necessary, because there's a tacit acceptance that multiple accounts are required to keep up with everyone else or to optimise the SP system.
There's also a core of new players who sell plex early on to fund their ingame activities. Again, this question pops up frequently in new player channels (how do I sell/redeem my plex?) so anyone involved with new players has to be aware that there's a split between the haves/have nots already.
There are also frequent questions about 'how can I make enough ISK to plex my accounts' from new players, suggesting people are joining the game with the assumption that they can FTP from the beginning, which is actually fairly grindy and arguably an unattractive playstyle. One of the worst types of discussion you tend to see is when a new player rolls a second 'ISK making' account to earn money for their main combat alt and to keep both plexed. It's committing to significant amounts of grind from the get-go whilst not really having an understanding of how to make ISK. Occasionally older players will advise to not bother with a second account and just pay the sub in cash, but it's clearly unheeded advice, and you have to ask why people recognise so early on that multiple accounts are essential? If 2-3 accounts are the norm people are already being ripped off in terms of subs or being expected to grind for 20 odd hours a month for plex.
Players who are dependent upon plexes to run multiple accounts that they committed to during a stage when they don't really understand SP or how to make ISK are likely to suffer from massive burnout as a result of choices they make in the early stages. And once someone has invested significant amounts of time training and refining multiple characters, they're likely to get attached to those alts and see them as necessary to their game experience, which may be accelerating attrition rates. Sensibly you might expect people to simply drop their extra subs during periods they can't afford to fund them and just keep their main running. I get the impression people see their alts as essential to gameplay, and if they hit the point they can't afford some, they just drop all of their subs and stop playing altogether. It's not an ideal scenario.
I'd personally prefer a system in which new players understand that they can purchase SP but that there are limits to its usefulness. Being able to extract will allow them to undo previous skilltraining mistakes. But the one thing people aren't really focusing on much when discussing this is that it might be possible to break this multi account dependence from the beginning. By encouraging people to focus on one account which they can try multiple ingame activities on, with a view to specialising later, it allows them chance to play and understand ISK making systems before they get locked into an onerous account configuration. And for what it's worth, plenty of people are willing to pay a modest chunk for a new game when they first pick it up - particularly if they know ongoing the expansions are free. -ú50--ú100 upfront might work out a lot more economical than running multiple accounts, or -ú10 monthly sub/-ú10 spent on SP boosts.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Zakks
Zakks Shop
16
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:50:52 -
[286] - Quote
The problem I see is that it is a risk-free boost to SP without time-constraint, to benefit those who would rather pay to improve their stats than the existing methods. Buying a character from the bazaar carries possible risks (who knows for sure if the history is an awoxer or red-list recipient), and certainly implants carry risk. The recent Blood Raider event is a great example of the risks to obtain a small boost to SP.
I won't bemoan this if it goes live, but it doesn't seem like a good thing for this game. Golden Bullets imho...
edit.
As for the alts comparison, having more isn't the same as having better |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32711
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:51:28 -
[287] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Grr? Grr goons? No it was definitely levelled squarely at your completely missing the point post from within an egocentric vacuum... your goon affiliation has nothing to do with it.
I tried to explain my take on the situation, and talking about myself is the only way to do that.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32711
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 07:59:14 -
[288] - Quote
I could talk about other people's gameplay and experiences, but that's second-hand and hearsay.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 09:08:30 -
[289] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I could talk about other people's gameplay and experiences, but that's second-hand and hearsay.
Seems like a lazy way of excusing your refusal/inability to consider other player's situations, you've already demonstrated impressive ignorance regarding the financial/time constraints of other players and flippantly disregarded anyone who doesn't have an excess of either as "should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them?"
For every one of you and your 10 subscriptions, there's Goodness knows how many more people with just 1 or 2 that they may sub or grind/plex, you may think they have no business playing the game, but I think the game would suffer their loss more than yours, just on sheer numbers alone. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
Somethin Awfull Forums
604
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 09:09:55 -
[290] - Quote
There are two camps of people in EVE protests.
- People who don't care
- People who don't care about people who don't care.
I just don't care.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
|
|
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32712
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 12:25:43 -
[291] - Quote
Ohhh I think I see now. These hypothetical players who don't have the spare time or funds, do they happen to find the time to post on eve-o?
I don't think they should be stricken from the game, I just don't think I should be without a thing on their behalf.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
195
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 15:33:52 -
[292] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Ohhh I think I see now. These hypothetical players who don't have the spare time or funds, do they happen to find the time to post on eve-o?
I don't think they should be stricken from the game, I just don't think I should be without a thing on their behalf.
So you insinuate that they don't exist ? Gimme a break, plenty of people in this game have limited playtime for whatever reason and surely the amount of threads on plex prices is evidence that not everyone has "fat stacks". I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad. |
Kotoko Hoshina
EVE University
Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 15:56:03 -
[293] - Quote
I think I should start selling tin foil hats in Jita. This might be good for my wallet. |
Mai Khumm
Lonetrek Freeport
695
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 16:26:51 -
[294] - Quote
I'm just here to post in this thread...
Toronto EVE Thread!
[email protected]
@Toronto_EVE
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32714
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 16:53:44 -
[295] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:
So you insinuate that they don't exist ? Gimme a break, plenty of people in this game have limited playtime for whatever reason and surely the amount of threads on plex prices is evidence that not everyone has "fat stacks". I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad.
This post is a portmanteau of EVE memes and cliches.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
196
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 17:07:18 -
[296] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Portmanteau wrote:
So you insinuate that they don't exist ? Gimme a break, plenty of people in this game have limited playtime for whatever reason and surely the amount of threads on plex prices is evidence that not everyone has "fat stacks". I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad.
This post is a portmanteau of EVE memes and cliches.
Portmanteau =/= pastiche (I think that's the word you were looking for)
Not sure that CCP consider player retention, new customers, player demographics, fluctuation of subscription numbers or public perception management as clich+¬s |
Marsha Mallow
2731
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 17:09:32 -
[297] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote: I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad.
This new thingGÇöit is bad!
Quote:So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, well before China started farming WoW gold in the 1800s. It's always touched me in places I never expected. I often sit and think how much headway I could make in life if it wasn't for internet spaceships, but the ship spinning alone brings joy and meaning to my life. But then this new thing was introduced to the game. This new thing will completely break and ruin the game! In the past, I did the old thing in the old way, and that was fine. I did it, I was fine, and nothing went wrong. But now there's this new thing... why?!
There are many reasons why this new thing will break the game.
The equipment we farmed will have different value now.
The work we did will be easier or harder for subsequent people to do.
It is different.
It is not the same as it was before.
The way it was before is how I want it to remain.
It is new.
I don't like it.
These are just the things that come to mind after barely glancing through the first paragraph of the devpost. But, enough of that. CCPlease, can we please stop this new thing before it's too late? I can tell you all about why the new thing is bad. I did the old thing day in, day out, and I was better at it than all of you. I had Mastery VI of the old thing. If you think my being too used to the old thing is why I dislike the new thing, you are sadly mistaken! For I have like Mastery VIIXIV of the new thing, too. Even though it's new, I'm still better at it than all of you, even the people who are better at it than I am, and I've been better at it since before I was born. But, still, the old thing was better, and this new thing is bad, and wrong, and badly wrong.
Devs, CSMs, ISDs, OGBs, IPAs, please hear my pleas. This new thing will change the game from how it was before, and this cannot be allowed to happen. Stop, now. I know you'll listen to me, because you always listen to meGÇöand only meGÇöbecause we've known each other all our lives, even when we didn't know it. We used to do the thing (not the new thing, the old one) by the place, and you once told me, "Nez, your three semesters of Game Development at the community college give you more knowledge and experience than all of us together, and we'll let you veto any changes you don't like." Well, that didn't happen. You went behind my back, and you did it to my face.
Anyway. I'm not bitter, though I will unsubscribe my eleventy accounts at the drop of a hat if this thing isn't changed. I just want to be clear: I am basically the unofficial CSM chair with my dank skills, this new thing is bad, and the old thing is the only way that anything should ever be done.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Moneta
Gilded Goose Brokerage
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 17:32:48 -
[298] - Quote
One month, 15 pages. I'd say we can safely conclude the only 'mass' in this thread pertains to the OP's obese relatives, rather than the announced mass protest, or to any form of functioning brain mass for that matter.
edit: I miss the times when I alone would generate more pages of thread in a week than this sorry excuse has done in that month :-( |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
9123
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 17:39:54 -
[299] - Quote
I did look out in Amarr for the OP and wished to join him in solidarity - I even went so far to make a cardboard sign saying "THIS IS BAD AND SHOULD BE STOPPED", and I was wearing nothing but soiled white Y-fronts.
I even looked at local comms for a second and a dribble of urine trickled down my leg. I was his perfect brother in arms, but FREELANCER117 was nowhere to be found :(
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
|
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 21:21:06 -
[300] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote:Portmanteau wrote: I'm not saying that TSPs and the have/have not divide they potentially could create is a bad thing because I am an egalitarian, I'm saying it because it's bad for business and because it's bad for player retention and gaining new players... that is bad for you and me... declining player base is bad.
This new thingGÇöit is bad!Quote:So I've been playing EVE since before space even existed, ....
I get that you're making a joke and I like the joke, but it's funny because it's true about how people in MMOs react to change, but not so true about MMOs not making changes that shoot themselves in the foot. By the way I am like the worst ever audience member at a comedy show.. ever. |
|
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Portmanteau
oooh ponies
198
|
Posted - 2015.11.12 21:22:40 -
[301] - Quote
double postage |
Marsha Mallow
2733
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 00:25:27 -
[302] - Quote
Portmanteau wrote:I get that you're making a joke and I like the joke, but it's funny because it's true about how people in MMOs react to change, but not so true about MMOs not making changes that shoot themselves in the foot. By the way I am like the worst ever audience member at a comedy show.. ever.
Yes, it has been noted that many of you are emotional wookies babbling on about irrelevant mechanics.
But anyway back to the sandbox.
Shall we just have a riot?
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Ashterothi
Virtus Crusade
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
324
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 01:39:17 -
[303] - Quote
Where do I go to protest the protesters?
Listen to Hydrostatic Podcast for all your Empyrean needs!
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26057
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 06:19:17 -
[304] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.
I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said:
Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.
1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game.
2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all.
It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing.
Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.
How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors?
Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made.
Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time.
(this is essentially the argument I'm reading)
GÖÑ
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26057
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 06:21:03 -
[305] - Quote
I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode.
Figures.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6859
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 07:14:08 -
[306] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time.
You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding?
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 16:43:47 -
[307] - Quote
Hilmar, i thought with your diet and your overall change of look you were trying to somehow show us that you are not the same old space jew we knew in older debacles.
Or wait, I actually didn't think you'Ve changed in the slightest. You just exhausted the community by continuously poking the so called game core and after few years, you can probably finally also sell gold ammunition without any community resistance. You won,
yet you lost. |
Portmanteau
oooh ponies
201
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 17:10:40 -
[308] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode. Figures.
I'm hopped up on flu medication so i'm an easy mark tbf
|
Marsha Mallow
2737
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 17:30:35 -
[309] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I can see Marsha ignored the point-by-point response from me and goes for Portmanteau's jugular since he's in rant mode. Figures.
Nah I take on board that your point by point summary has more detail elsewhere - I'm assuming in the SP devblog thread? Need to go through it and have a proper look at some point when I have time before replying to your post here (I stopped following it early on). You might be right and I haven't quite got what you're getting at. Also I'm still thinking about it. Sometimes these bigger topics are best left for a day or so to consider rather than getting tied in knots in a back-and-forth.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26061
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 19:02:10 -
[310] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding?
No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK.
My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
|
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26061
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 19:05:48 -
[311] - Quote
Ok Marsha, I was only teasing.
Portmanteau, I hope you recover from your flu and feel better.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
6459
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 22:20:56 -
[312] - Quote
Removed an off topic post.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
|
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
40784
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:10:57 -
[313] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
Ok Marsha, I was only teasing.
Portmanteau, I hope you recover from your flu and feel better.
Back to the best Sib portrait.
Nice change (though you never have a bad one anyway).
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32721
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:33:51 -
[314] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation. I understand that (having known you for a while), but this is what I said: Sibyyl wrote:What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats. 1. One could argue it takes more RL money to have as many accounts as you do. However, the option to do the same is open to someone who puts enough time into the game. 2. Combine #1 with diminishing returns from multiboxing, esp. with input multiplexing limits enforced late 2014. For a person like me who can't multibox at all (physiologically), having a lot of accounts isn't much of an advantage at all. It's different for SP trading because there is no diminishing returns from having multiple SP mules. It's an endless stack of SP. This also means there is a breaking point where IRL money exceeds the capability of a player putting in time into the game to get the same thing. Rain6637 wrote:I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player. How do you "play harder" to afford tens or hundreds of Skill Extractors? Rain6637 wrote:As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made. Seems like it's safe to say that having enough IRL money to afford to not care about earning ISK makes you less sympathetic to any argument based on players who can't afford to do these things. Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. (this is essentially the argument I'm reading) GÖÑ
I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
Small groups can align with each other, but then technically that isn't a small group.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32721
|
Posted - 2015.11.13 23:40:28 -
[315] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Sibyyl wrote:Of course *you* don't think SP Trading as pay-to-win is a problem. You're willing to cut a check because in-game grinding isn't worth your time. You mean setting the skillqueue and then Jabber Onlining is in-game grinding? No Alavaria, by grinding I'm referring to grinding for ISK. My simple point is that if Rain "can't be assed" to get his ISK in the game and instead relies on PLEX, then it makes him less sympathetic to the issue of SP Trading being pay-to-win.
Whether I have the time or money, they're interchangeable resources for the purpose of obtaining stuff. If I didn't have money then I would need time, but luckily that isn't the case, and I can have either or.
As a sidenote, I was not enticed to participate in the boosters from the blood raider event. Way too much time required, even to log in and buy them from market. Even before the pricing, which I couldn't tell you off the top of my head, I wasn't at all interested.
Did I mention I probably won't participate in skill inject pack gameplay?
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Jonas Kanjus
Side Busters
23
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 03:21:13 -
[316] - Quote
Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks!
My start date to EVE Online:
6/25/2005 8:24:57 AM UTC
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Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
483
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 10:57:32 -
[317] - Quote
Jonas Kanjus wrote:Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks!
I seems yes. But i don't think there is an explicit answer anywhere. That would mean that i lose 90% of the skill point i pack and inject+ AUR. So can't really see it being a thing.
AKA the scientist.
Death and Glory!
Well fun is also good.
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2391
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 11:12:42 -
[318] - Quote
There is too much ISK floating around in certain groups.
Skill injections would only benefit them even more than anyone else.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
Jonas Kanjus
Side Busters
24
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 22:30:53 -
[319] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Jonas Kanjus wrote:Considering there are 16 pages in this topic and please forgive me if someone has already asked this, does anyone know if a player creates a skill pack, can they use that skill pack on themselves? If so, are they subjugated to the same rules as someone who bought the pack off the market?
Thanks! I seems yes. But i don't think there is an explicit answer anywhere. That would mean that i lose 90% of the skill point i pack and inject+ AUR. So can't really see it being a thing.
By those numbers, I can't see the skill point packs being that useful. Honestly, this game should have a means to modify ones skill sets to better suit the direction a player wants to go. Take my current toon for instance, my skills are all over the place. I'd be happy to pay ISK to be able to move my skill points from unwanted skills to other skills I want to use. If I spend days, weeks or even months to train a particular area just to find out I don't like that, then I should be able to reverse that course and move those skill points elsewhere.
I could see my above idea being pointless if the training times were significantly less; but that's not the case here.
My start date to EVE Online:
6/25/2005 8:24:57 AM UTC
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32774
|
Posted - 2015.11.15 23:54:38 -
[320] - Quote
Correction: I might use skill packs to finish skills like Advanced Drone Interfacing V and Trade skills.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
|
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Dyllan Ma'tar
Anarchist Industrial Syndicate of New Eden
4
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:00:26 -
[321] - Quote
So when can we expect this to go live? I have people to eat.
> You can win with certainty with the spirit of "one cut". ~ Miyamoto Musashi
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26116
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:06:45 -
[322] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay.
As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many.
But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.
If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?).
Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26119
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:30:14 -
[323] - Quote
"Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it."
Incarna survey by T'amber link here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1395464&page=1
80% of EVE players against non-cosmetic microtransactions using AUR. Specifically: "you think that because you pay a set fee each month that you should have access to all the options and features ingame that everyone else gets"
Quote:Yeah, we are looking at introducing virtual goods within the game, but we feel those things should be vanity items rather than those that give you a clear benefit over other players in-game.
That said, we are introducing a feature this expansion [Incursion], that does allow you to re-map your attributes using Pilot Licence Extensions, which are bought both in-game and on our website. PLEX represents 30-days subscription within the game.
We will evolve just like everyone else. We will certainly not become a dinosaur. That has not been our style.
Source: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1341909&page=1#7
CCP Shadow wrote:Just for clarification, the skillpoints CCP will be giving pilots to make up for the extended downtime in this case is not tied to microtransactions.
Editing to add this: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE.
.
.
No. There are no microtransaction plans, whatsoever. I wrote "in this case" because this extended downtime was an unusual situation. It's not every day we relocate our servers to a new facility.
Source: http://eve-search.com/thread/1543814-0/page/1#7
Quote:Quote:Are you trolling me bro? Cool
Our business model isn't changing, you all have nothing to be concerned about.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Demerius Xenocratus
Rapid Withdrawal
739
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 05:52:35 -
[324] - Quote
Why play the game at all? Why not just compare the cumulative RL bank accounts of each side of an in-game conflict and declare the winner?
Be done with all this nonsense like transversal and fitting and falloff.
|
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32799
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:57:12 -
[325] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Rain6637 wrote:I spent five years putzing around in small groups, and a year ago I saw the light. A lot of my apathy is from understanding the folly of sticking with a small group out of some irrational principle. Nothing is stopping a player from aligning with a large group and only going out to PVP or do -whatever- with a handful of players in their large group.
Another aspect to consider is macro vs micro gameplay. Large groups are capable of both macro and micro, but small groups are confined to micro gameplay. As you know, I'm in a large corp, too. You don't have to sell me on the benefits of large corps.. there are many. But nowhere in your statement do I see any argument in favor of SP Trading, specifically. As I said before: Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.If large groups are so great to be in, why empower them further with a mechanic vulnerable to abuse by the richer segment of EVE (in the ways I've clearly spelled out?). Of course, someone is going to bring up how great it is for newbros. We have a consensus here on GD, Reddit, and anywhere else that a newbie doesn't need SP to have fun. Have we all suddenly been so blinded by account consolidation that we've forgotten this fundamental point?
I was kinda space baller on my own, in a small independent (now alt) corp. Nothing stops a player from using wallet to pad their skill sheet, big group or small.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32799
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 22:59:47 -
[326] - Quote
And you know, as PLEX values rise, it becomes more of a wallet player's market.
AND my last three years of ten-subbing were done while attending school full-time, so there's that. You know, life priorities and stuff.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Rat Scout
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
33
|
Posted - 2015.11.16 23:44:52 -
[327] - Quote
"skill points mean nothing, get in a ship and go out to pew day one"
"whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
463
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 02:10:26 -
[328] - Quote
Rat Scout wrote:"skill points mean nothing, get in a ship and go out to pew day one" "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" - In EVE General Discussion [ Original thread ] EvE is for the mentally unstable, the narcissist or psychopath, the ones who have a superiority complex, the emo and the body builder who shoots 50mg of adrenalin every day, it's for the people who have OCD and ADHD. EvE is not for the ordinary.
Ok, I get where you're coming from. EvE does need people who want to be the best at all cost, but it also needs people who are inclusive and think of other pilots too. Without the latter, there would be no eve-uni or the recently shut down RvB ... people who spend their time so others can get greater enjoyment of the game.
The people who take the time to write up essay style posts with arguments, are certainly not crying "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs". They are pointing out certain risks of the proposed mechanics. More so they are urging CCP to be very careful about changing a mechanic which is a fundamental part of gameplay. By this I don't mean the waiting time until a skill is trained, which isn't fun. What I mean is being forced to make choices in what ships you want to fly.
Lowering the bar is one thing, setting the bar as low as you're able to pay for is a whole different thing. I'm not going to reiterate how allthough PLEX & the character bazaar are already allowing people to circumvent the system, they are quite different from the proposed SP trade.
I'm not fundamentally opposed to SP trading, but I do think the number of SP which can be injected should be limited per month, per 3 moths or per 6 months. This would allow CCP to test the waters for SP trading without causing too much damage, should they have to pull the system again. It would also allow the current SP system to maintain part of its function of forcing players to make choices which for a time will exclude them from other options (opportunity cost).
Opportunity cost may be a nuisance but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Our economy is based on the fact that you can't do everything by yourself. The fact that engineers, lawyers, doctors are highly specialized in their field at the cost of not training other stuff in the same time is what allows them to perform better in their field and earn higher wages. The times where a blacksmith is also a dentist and a surgeon are luckily over.
And so it is in EvE. We have specialized "professions". Some of those require actually to become skilled at playing in that field. Others just require the patience to wait until your skills have trained. Making it possible to correct mistakes or getting faster into specific ships is good. Making it dependant on your wallet is bad, especially if you continue asking for a subscription fee.
TL:DR criticizing the proposed SP trade system doesn't mean that one is fundamentally opposed to SP trading. Reducing well thought out arguments to "whaa whaaa whaaaaaaa SP Packs" is childish behaviour and doesn't help your case.
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32803
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 12:20:18 -
[329] - Quote
Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
465
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 12:41:22 -
[330] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
*hug*
Now, now .. feeling better ?
Also, can someone explain what this thread is about?-á (Relax ! I'm just quoting Holgrak Blacksmith here.)
When life gives you lemons, swap letters and poof: melons, solemn melons.
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|
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
6519
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 13:04:38 -
[331] - Quote
I have never said this before & never thought I would, but here it is: This idea from CCP is actually well thought out straight out of the box & I see no issues with this.
This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
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Yolandar
Estrogen Industrial Enterprises
84
|
Posted - 2015.11.17 15:24:08 -
[332] - Quote
BRAINS!!! |
Yolandar
Estrogen Industrial Enterprises
85
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 01:18:24 -
[333] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Waiting for sib's next paper-thin bleeding-heart rebuttal
First post without "I" or "ME"
Empathy is hard? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32805
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 01:40:12 -
[334] - Quote
Worrying about other people's hypothetical situations is the basis of most of the dissent in this thread so far.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
Yolandar
Estrogen Industrial Enterprises
85
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 02:02:52 -
[335] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:Worrying about other people's hypothetical situations is the basis of most of the dissent in this thread so far.
I still care enough to worry about yours. |
Globby
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
279
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 02:29:01 -
[336] - Quote
good job ccp, this and the input broadcasting changes have completely fixed the game and made up for phoebe 110% or something |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
32806
|
Posted - 2015.11.18 18:34:36 -
[337] - Quote
Yolandar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:Worrying about other people's hypothetical situations is the basis of most of the dissent in this thread so far. I still care enough to worry about yours.
ooh burnnned.
In other news, what was your post supposed to even mean.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
|
E1ev1n
Unknown Crusade
7
|
Posted - 2015.11.21 21:32:28 -
[338] - Quote
I think the idea of a Mass protest against change is not a reasonable thing to do look at all the changes that have been positive in the last few years, lets continue the positive and suggest better ways to implement what CCP wants to do. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 16:54:56 -
[339] - Quote
Globby wrote:good job ccp, this and the input broadcasting changes have completely fixed the game and made up for phoebe 110% or something
The input broadcasting change was definitely the easier of the two to implement
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Jenshae Chiroptera
2426
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 18:06:56 -
[340] - Quote
E1ev1n wrote:I think the idea of a Mass protest against change is not a reasonable thing to do look at all the changes that have been positive in the last few years, lets continue the positive and suggest better ways to implement what CCP wants to do. This is CCP's modus operandi.
- Throw up horrible idea on the community.
- Wait for the rage to cool down.
- Sift through the suggested compromises.
- Find the one closests to their plans and possibly make it even closer.
- Implement this and watch online figures drop a bit more.
- Sit around wondering why this happened then repeat the cycle.
This SP vampirism will benefit the rich veterans the most and make the gap between them and newbies larger.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
|
|
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Avvy
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
231
|
Posted - 2015.11.22 18:54:08 -
[341] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
This SP vampirism will benefit the rich veterans the most and make the gap between them and newbies larger.
So not really any different to the bazaar then, which they are supposed to replace.
Edit:
Hence the diminishing returns and hopefully an sp cap for there use.
The new system does add an interesting side effect.
A rich corp. could strengthen their forces over night if there were enough sp packets available. |
Marsha Mallow
2747
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 00:35:36 -
[342] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:This is CCP's modus operandi.
- Throw up horrible idea on the community.
- Wait for the rage to cool down.
- Sift through the suggested compromises.
- Find the one closests to their plans and possibly make it even closer.
- Implement this and watch online figures drop a bit more.
- Sit around wondering why this happened then repeat the cycle.
That's not quite true. In fact it's utterly false. The big changes of the last year were sourced from the community, proposed by CCP and the hysterical raging during the proposal phase was largely ignored in favour of iterating and tweaking once implemented. There hasn't been a series of compromise deployments recently because in principal the big changes have had support from key community leaders and thinkers who were actually the source for the ideas in the first place. If you pay attention to the major feedback threads you'll notice the incoherent raging is largely from imbeciles who only take to the forums to pitchfork wave and are almost invariably ignored. The constructive remarks came from people who consistently participate in those types of idea-driven discussions, and it's generally those types who get proposed adjustments and tweaks implemented. There is also a noticeable trend towards diminishing waves of hysteria since this cycle started and increasing bitterness from those whose only method of negotiation with CCP is to throw massive tantrums and engage in divisive campaigns.
I'm probably missing a few but the big changes in order in the last 12-18 months:
- Crius - Indy changes -> slight tweaks between proposal and implementation, removal of teams post deployment
- Phoebe - power projection changes -> Jump freighters ringfenced from PP adjustment, fatigue reduction post deployment
- Input automation - Isboxer nerf -> extended to macro use after initial proposal, no change post deployment
- Aegis - sov revamp -> tweaks ongoing post deployment
- Tradeable SP - ??
Tradable SP has split the side of the community who participate in this type of design discussion. Partly because it wasn't as high a profile topic as the others and may have taken some of them by surprise, but mainly because of the ties to the microtransaction topic which is perceived as a no-go area. But some of the negative reaction was a knee-jerk in surprise and concern that the wider community might reject the concept and attack CCP (which has proved to be false). Some are massively supportive, some concerned about the potential effects, but no-one with any credibility is having hysterics and threatening to rage quit/riot over this. Other than Sib I'm not seeing any of the people who give constructive feedback and who have doubts write anything up over this proposal beyond 'I don't personally like this' where the supporters have written at length. If they can't take the time to give a more detailed criticism that CCP will take on board and build into a future deployment it's likely that they don't have anything relevant to add beyond a personal reaction, or are reluctant to speculate about wider effects because they don't have enough data to comment.
Also, the playerbase have had CCP bent over since Incarna over design direction whilst simultaneously taking design mechanics to such extremes they are game-breaking. The PCU started dropping a long time ago, and I'd question whether that isn't the result of players engaging in activity which alienates/aggravates large portions of the playerbase. Examples
- Isboxer - Greed is Good, let's all bot, semi-legally and claim it's a legit playstyle
- OTEC - let's converge into two mega-coalitions and fight proxy wars, everyone else can be renters
- The Big Blue Donut - Dominion sov is too grindy, let's blue everyone and engage in phoney wars instead, we'll fight on the forums and pretend it matters
- HIghsec deserves to be punished - let's farm it to death via ganking and perma decs, that'll teach em they're playing wrong
- Supercaps online - supers are the only way to 'win' EvE, if you don't have one, you can't play - click my referral link pls
- Plexes - let's use these as passive income streams and drive those reliant upon them to unsub, if anyone complains be sure to say #nopoors, and tell them to get a job
- The only fights worth having involve 2000 players, and we only want to do this at most every six months. We demand CCP accommodate our vision for the most ridiculously boring type of battle, because the dozen people on field/touching their epeen enjoyed it. And they can kick members who complain.
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:This SP vampirism will benefit the rich veterans the most and make the gap between them and newbies larger.
Can you please back this statement up with some numbers, or evidence. Rich vets already have high SP alts. If anything a proposal like this narrows the gap between them and newer players with either RL funds to sink into purchased SP, or time to grind the ISK ingame to purchase it via activity. The only people likely to lose out are those Sib has identified as unable to commit RL funds or time to ingame ISK making activities. I'd still like to know exactly how this increases the SP gap when passive SP acquisition remains constant and isn't scheduled for change.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
475
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 02:04:30 -
[343] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote: (snip)There hasn't been a series of compromise deployments recently because in principal the big changes have had support from key community leaders and thinkers who were actually the source for the ideas in the first place. If you pay attention to the major feedback threads you'll notice the incoherent raging is largely from imbeciles who only take to the forums to pitchfork wave and are almost invariably ignored. The constructive remarks came from people who consistently participate in those types of idea-driven discussions, and it's generally those types who get proposed adjustments and tweaks implemented. There is also a noticeable trend towards diminishing waves of hysteria since this cycle started and increasing bitterness from those whose only method of negotiation with CCP is to throw massive tantrums and engage in divisive campaigns. I'm probably missing a few but the big changes in order in the last 12-18 months: - Crius - Indy changes -> slight tweaks between proposal and implementation, removal of teams post deployment
- Phoebe - power projection changes -> Jump freighters ringfenced from PP adjustment, fatigue reduction post deployment
- Input automation - Isboxer nerf -> extended to macro use after initial proposal, no change post deployment
- Aegis - sov revamp -> tweaks ongoing post deployment
- Tradeable SP - ??
Tradable SP has split the side of the community who participate in this type of design discussion. Partly because it wasn't as high a profile topic as the others and may have taken some of them by surprise, but mainly because of the ties to the microtransaction topic which is perceived as a no-go area. But some of the negative reaction was a knee-jerk in surprise and concern that the wider community might reject the concept and attack CCP (which has proved to be false). Some are massively supportive, some concerned about the potential effects, but no-one with any credibility is having hysterics and threatening to rage quit/riot over this. Other than Sib I'm not seeing any of the people who give constructive feedback and who have doubts write anything up over this proposal beyond 'I don't personally like this' where the supporters have written at length. If they can't take the time to give a more detailed criticism that CCP will take on board and build into a future deployment it's likely that they don't have anything relevant to add beyond a personal reaction, or are reluctant to speculate about wider effects because they don't have enough data to comment. Also, the playerbase have had CCP bent over since Incarna over design direction whilst simultaneously taking design mechanics to such extremes they are game-breaking. The PCU started dropping a long time ago, and I'd question whether that isn't the result of players engaging in activity which alienates/aggravates large portions of the playerbase. Examples - Isboxer - Greed is Good, let's all bot, semi-legally and claim it's a legit playstyle
- OTEC - let's converge into two mega-coalitions and fight proxy wars, everyone else can be renters
- The Big Blue Donut - Dominion sov is too grindy, let's blue everyone and engage in phoney wars instead, we'll fight on the forums and pretend it matters
- HIghsec deserves to be punished - let's farm it to death via ganking and perma decs, that'll teach em they're playing wrong
- Supercaps online - supers are the only way to 'win' EvE, if you don't have one, you can't play - click my referral link pls
- Plexes - let's use these as passive income streams and drive those reliant upon them to unsub, if anyone complains be sure to say #nopoors, and tell them to get a job
- The only fights worth having involve 2000 players, and we only want to do this at most every six months. We demand CCP accommodate our vision for the most ridiculously boring type of battle, because the dozen people on field/touching their epeen enjoyed it. And they can kick members who complain.
(snip) The only people likely to lose out are those Sib has identified as unable to commit RL funds or time to ingame ISK making activities. I'd still like to know exactly how this increases the SP gap when passive SP acquisition remains constant and isn't scheduled for change.
This post and Sibyyl's extensive post on SPT are now part of my sig for a limited time.
I don't fully agree with everything you say Miss Mallow, but this list of possibly aggravating player activity is certainly worth considering in related discussions.
Speaking of "related", are you in any way related to *spoiler alert, if you plan to read "Foundation"* (contains spoilers)Hober Mallow ?
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
|
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
30
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 04:16:39 -
[344] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:Where do I go to protest the protesters?
you just keep calm and carry on |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6861
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 05:16:57 -
[345] - Quote
Mass protest against the mass-protest against exploring
the character bazaar
Every change leaves the badguys just about to fall.
We just need more coalitions to exist to destroy them, more legions to be paid off, more lasersov, more something!!
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
190
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 06:38:51 -
[346] - Quote
I see a few main concerns with the SP concept as presented:
1. As argued unchallenged by Tippia, it breaks the in-game mechanics. I think "bypassed" was the term used, and I won't rehash it here (you can find it for yourself in the main feedback thread). This argument refers to the characters in the game.
2. Because the SP are being monetized, this will most likely widen the gap between "rich" and "poor" in the Eve financial landscape. Rather than benefit the "middle-class" as I think it should be intended, it will further reward those who have the most wealth. This argument refers to the people who play.
3. Hypothesized by some, is the long-term direction of the Eve game and CCP's incorporation of it's other assets (Dust, Valkyrie...) into a larger symbiotic system. We don't necessarily have the full context of this system and can only guess as to where it will lead. The SP proposal is (imho) not good in the current Eve game system. But with all the changes to come, it just may be a viable option.
Ultimately CCP will do what it wants to (and needs to). As consumers we have choices.
I don't believe whining about it is a viable option.
Argue well. |
Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
28
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 07:06:55 -
[347] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:I see a few main concerns with the SP concept as presented:
1. As argued unchallenged by Tippia, it breaks the in-game mechanics. I think "bypassed" was the term used, and I won't rehash it here (you can find it for yourself in the main feedback thread). This argument refers to the characters in the game.
You can't spell Tippia, without PITA.
Tippia goes unchallenged because there is no way to challenge him. Arguing with Tippia is like arguing with the Terminator. They are stronger and smarter than you in every way, but they lack emotion and cannot understand that logic is sometimes only part of an argument.
The only thing key from your post is that CCP will do what it wants and clearly on this, CCP Seagull is all for the concept. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26251
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 07:17:15 -
[348] - Quote
I agree, Marsha. Player suggestions for rule changes have been spectacular failures in action.
We can argue all day long, but none of us are looking at the raw numbers and data that CCP is.
I would like an answer to the RMT question that many have wondered about now. Why bother introducing something that increases (not decreases) RMT in the game?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
|
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
190
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 07:28:03 -
[349] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
I would like an answer to the RMT question that many have wondered about now. Why bother introducing something that increases (not decreases) RMT in the game?
Eliminate the profit motive (for players) and just let CCP sell the packets for AUR.
That now becomes microtransactions, however, yet eliminates the 'greed' issues with the proposal.
Damned if you do... |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26254
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 16:47:22 -
[350] - Quote
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Eliminate the profit motive (for players) and just let CCP sell the packets for AUR.
That now becomes microtransactions, however, yet eliminates the 'greed' issues with the proposal.
Damned if you do...
The reason why players have protested microtransactions, it is because these mechanisms are open to wide abuse with enough ISK or RL money. Exposing Skill Points to that abuse will have a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game.
(what's the effect? Wider separation of have's and have-not's)
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
2403
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 19:10:07 -
[351] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:
I agree, Marsha. Player suggestions for rule changes have been spectacular failures in action.
We can argue all day long, but none of us are looking at the raw numbers and data that CCP is.
I would like an answer to the RMT question that many have wondered about now. Why bother introducing something that increases (not decreases) RMT in the game?
Why would it increase RMT? PLEX is a micro-transaction and it reduced the RMT. Why would skill packets do the opposite, especially if they can be put on the market after being created? |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26256
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:42:05 -
[352] - Quote
PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX is an alternative because people can buy ISK without PLEX (i.e.: RMT).
People can't buy SP today (it's not part of the game mechanics).
When SP Trading is introduced, you are also opening up the path for SP to be traded for money (an RMT possibility didn't exist before). Since legal SP Trading will always be priced less competitively than the RMT alternative (since SP Trading is being introduced as a microtransactional source of income for CCP, not as an RMT preventer like PLEX) we're talking about a previously nonexistent pipe of RMT.
I have my doubts as to how this RMT pipe can be policed. This RMT pipe, since it's new, will require additional policing resources. And how would you prove that any SP is RMT anyway?
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Jenn aSide
Ascendent.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
13001
|
Posted - 2015.11.23 20:47:53 -
[353] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Eliminate the profit motive (for players) and just let CCP sell the packets for AUR.
That now becomes microtransactions, however, yet eliminates the 'greed' issues with the proposal.
Damned if you do... The reason why players have protested microtransactions, it is because these mechanisms are open to wide abuse with enough ISK or RL money. Exposing Skill Points to that abuse will have a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game. (what's the effect? Wider separation of have's and have-not's)
To be fair it remains to be seen what the affects would be (I agree with you, it doesn't look good though). But the MOST LIKELY outcomes are bad. Every time someone tries to do something 'for the children' it ends up helping the veterans (recent example is the SP boost, I hear people on my comms talking about how great it is to be not that far from a new mining or ratting or bomber alt compared to how it used to be lol).
And yet it keeps happening. What does it take for people to learn "hey, this might not be the right way to go here"?
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Asura Vajrarupa
Anarchist Industrial Syndicate of New Eden
55
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Posted - 2015.11.23 21:38:26 -
[354] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:SP trading only introduces another mechanism for RMT trading, not prevent it.
Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid. All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. You could make the argument that stopping RMT makes the game a better game, but then you'd have to show that stopping RMT is possible. It isn't. A simple internet search will prove that. And even if you could, that doesn't mean you'd have a better game.
And quite frankly, I haven't heard a decent argument against SP trading. It will help older characters isn't good enough. Everything helps older characters. Any change you make will help someone in a position to capitalize on it, and older characters fall into that group more than anyone else.
People with money will have an advantage? They already do. This new mechanic doesn't change that fact. But really, what advantage? You can only train a skill so far for any given ship. More earnings potential? They can buy plex and sell it for isk, no change in that fact is brought on by blocking SP trading from becoming a reality.
I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Zakks
Zakks Shop
18
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Posted - 2015.11.24 01:52:52 -
[355] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:
I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
The arguments against are solidly there. But you don't agree with them so dismiss them and the people making them by closing with an attack. |
Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26261
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 03:42:21 -
[356] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid.
I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP.
Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical.
Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us.
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
30
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Posted - 2015.11.24 04:02:00 -
[357] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:Eliminate the profit motive (for players) and just let CCP sell the packets for AUR.
That now becomes microtransactions, however, yet eliminates the 'greed' issues with the proposal.
Damned if you do... The reason why players have protested microtransactions, it is because these mechanisms are open to wide abuse with enough ISK or RL money. Exposing Skill Points to that abuse will have a trickle down effect on every aspect of the game. (what's the effect? Wider separation of have's and have-not's)
Or a trickle up - since presumably it will be the haves selling their skills to the have nots
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1746
|
Posted - 2015.11.24 04:13:26 -
[358] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP. To be fair, there is no new method, just a new item which follows existing methods of RMT for all in game items. To suggest this is a comparatively detrimental RMT driver that subverts detection suggests:
a) CCP has little to no means to detect any RMT activity involving in game items other than isk,
b) this driver is one that somehow uniquely distinguishes itself from isk demand since that just routes back into another RMT mitigation, PLEX and
c) that this driver be greater than any provided by the high prices of the Bazaar itself to obtain the needed isk at a lower RL price point than allowed by PLEX.
While there could be some merits to the idea of direct sale only vs trading, if for cash only it just exasperates the issues between have's and have not's that forms the basis for most of the objections, and if for AUR, assuming the demand is sufficient to actually be an RMT driver while tradable, still remains an RMT driver for isk due to the isk > PLEX > AUR conversion (if not a sufficient driver it just comes down to whether player controlled availability beats infinite availability, which I'm on the fence about.).
Side note: If item RMT is actually untraceable then so is isk trading due to items being redeemable for isk on market for those that have figured that out. Taking the train of thought that this is the case breaks any means of RMT policing against the smart.
Jenn aSide wrote:To be fair it remains to be seen what the affects would be (I agree with you, it doesn't look good though). But the MOST LIKELY outcomes are bad. Every time someone tries to do something 'for the children' it ends up helping the veterans (recent example is the SP boost, I hear people on my comms talking about how great it is to be not that far from a new mining or ratting or bomber alt compared to how it used to be lol).
And yet it keeps happening. What does it take for people to learn "hey, this might not be the right way to go here"? From where does the idea originate that vets can't be allowed to benefit from changes designed for new players? Your example doesn't deny the benefit to new players, just that older players can use it, which itself shouldn't be an issue since the capacity to control multiple alts now has a capacity limit (with the assumption of abiding by the EULA/TOS).
The benefit for older players is capped here in the same method. There are only so many low SP slots vets have on their accounts and as such only so much use that can be had before the hit the efficiency limits designed to work against them. And again, it doesn't deny the potential to help new players or state why it wouldn't. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2429
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:08:17 -
[359] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:
I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
The arguments against are solidly there. . Indeed.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Marsha Mallow
2754
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 22:41:13 -
[360] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Zakks wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:
I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
The arguments against are solidly there. . Indeed.
Articulate them then. 'Grr CCP are teh dumb' isn't going to work. You were the first to start the #firefozzie crap, right here on GD btw. The arguments against that type of behaviour are also solid.
Why don't you just write something up in relation to the mechanic, without the overt hostility towards anyone in particular?
Sib, I wrote a longer post regarding RMT just as the forum crashed. I did save it, but looking at it I can't post it without being unintentionally rude/condescending. A few others might deserve that tone, but you don't and you might be onto something relevant. I can see the edges but not follow it through because I'm too close to the char trading market/recruitment side by default.
If you could clarify what you mean by RMT in relation to this topic (i.e. inbound/outgoing), define the casual 'cash out' RMTers vs the professionals etc. I'd also really question that assumption that Plex/ETCs were put into game purely to curb RMT - despite the public citation.
But you're throwing up multiple objections (AT/RMT/SP gap) and it's tough to orient in response. Drop me a mail if you like, I don't want to accidentally savage a legit point, and it reads like these are interlinked.
I bought Marsha early on (legally) because the name amused me. Still does.
Knowing they have more SP than I do isnGÇÖt going to stop me from taking the fight if I was going to take it.
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|
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BANE LINX
State War Academy
Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2015.11.25 23:32:22 -
[361] - Quote
How many new players never got to experience the true glory of eve due to their low SP? Sure there are many corporations that claim to be newb friendly, but unless you have valuable skills, being the so-called Hero Tackle will be your only option at first (at least for those wanting to pvp). It is true that while "leveling" players will obtain some necessary skills for future higher level content, but how many people are willing to pay subscription fees for almost a year before their character becomes an asset? Most MMO's nowadays can't keep their player base captivated for more than a few years tops. The fact that EVE is still around is a modern day miracle. But no matter how amazing and unique this game is, it must evolve in order to secure its own future. In my eyes, this proposal is just that - CCP's attempt to prolong EvE's lifespan. Sure this proposal needs some refinement, but I do think it's for the best. So stop raging. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 04:54:56 -
[362] - Quote
Marsha Mallow wrote: I'd also really question that assumption that Plex/ETCs were put into game purely to curb RMT - despite the public citation.
My understanding is that GTC (Game Time Cards) where just a popular mechanic in the early MMO days to allow players to buy game time in a brick and mortar store. This way you didn't have to use your credit card for an online transaction.
RMT could and can be done withouth using game time. Traditional RMT is just a transaction where in-game currency or items are sold for real money. (reminder: RMT is a EULA violation that will get you banned !)
RMT has two sides:
- an ISK buying party
- an ISK selling party
The ISK buyers seek an ingame advantage to trade for real money. (I'm not being judgemental here, just explaining the mechanic).
The ISK sellers fall into two categories:
- players who made some ISK and want to benefit from that ISK in a way that is not directly supported by the game.
- non-players who seek a way to make real money using the game a means and the players as a target.
CCP recognized that especially the non-players engaging in RMT are a problem. Those guys were responsible for hacked accounts and were making money off of CCPs IP.
The "Timecode Bazaar" was a first step into legalizing the trades already happening between players (those who bought game time with ISK from those seeking to get ISK for real money.) Basically the demand for ISK was channelled away from the illegal sources towards the now legal sources.
The PLEX just made trading and applying game time to an account easier for everyone. The most important part to CCP is probably that it works without GM supervision, saving them money.
TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 05:18:32 -
[363] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT. Seems like PLEX was a tool to automate the Bazaar from your account, and the Bazaar was the Anti RMT element. As you describe it PLEX was introduced because it was easier and self managing, not because it further reduced RMT from the Bazaar.
That seems pretty analogous to TSP. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 06:29:12 -
[364] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:TL;DR: Were ETCs introduced to curb RMT ? No, but since players started trading ETCs, CCP came up with the Timecode Bazaar to prevent "illegal" RMT. The PLEX automates the function of the Timecode Bazaar. So PLEX is a tool against RMT. Seems like PLEX was a tool to automate the Bazaar from your account, and the Bazaar was the Anti RMT element. As you describe it PLEX was introduced because it was easier and self managing, not because it further reduced RMT from the Bazaar. That seems pretty analogous to TSP.
The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP.
There are differences between ISK and SP too:
- ISK is supposed to be gained through activity. Passive ISK gain is the exception rather than the norm.
- SP were designed to accrue passively, this would change with TSP (for better or for worse)
- ISK making is rarely entirely risk free: ISK or whatever makes you ISK can be lost, destroyed, stolen ... Buying ISK doesn't make you immune to those risks.
- SP are pretty safe on your account. With the removal of loosing SP when podded, only losing a Tech3 ship still incurs this penalty. So buying SP is a permanent advancement, buying ISK is more of a temporary boost.
- SP were designed as a class system that was flexible in allowing you to create a character defined by your preferences, but also confining you to your previous choices for a set amount of time.
I'm not against tradeable SP as a mechanic. I have two main concerns toward the proposed system:
- The potential signal sent to new players: You have to buy SP early on to be competitive, but since you don't have much ISK as a beginner you'll have to spend real money to buy PLEX so you can afford SP. All this while paying a monthly subscription fee.
- Until now there was no grind for SP. The only thing you might want to grind for are ISK. Making SP tradeable adds SP to the list of items you may grind ISK for.
From all the discussions had around TSP, I liked the proposed idea of flattening skill dependencies as a way to help newer players to get into the gameplay they prefer quicker. The argument was that, if new players want to fly battleships, why should they have to train frigates, cruisers, small turrets, medium turrets first. Why not allow them to go straight for large turrets and the BS skill ?
Other than this I would prefer if the amount of SP you could add to a character was capped to a monthly max. This would allow CCP to analyze how the mechanic is used without it becoming a run away train. It would also preserve some of the function of the SP system: pushing you to make meaningful choices in what class/role you want to play. Otherwise, what's stopping you to be a fully skilled miner & ore refiner & industrialist & trader if it isn't the time investment ?
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1748
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 11:07:10 -
[365] - Quote
Jill Xelitras wrote:The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP. While true the sale of SP and the sale of a character are different, I've not felt the distinctions were meaningful or beneficial to the idea of consequence the game supposedly emphasizes. For instance, buying a history, especially a negative one, means that the player who committed the acts gets paid to liquidate their consequence.
I'm still having a hard time understanding that mechanic as a positive in game principle.
Regarding planning, there is no difference, save the idea of simply waiting out the skills to which I'd ask, so long as someone waited out that time and decided it still worth selling, what is the issue?
Jill Xelitras wrote:There are differences between ISK and SP too:
- ISK is supposed to be gained through activity. Passive ISK gain is the exception rather than the norm.
- SP were designed to accrue passively, this would change with TSP (for better or for worse)
- ISK making is rarely entirely risk free: ISK or whatever makes you ISK can be lost, destroyed, stolen ... Buying ISK doesn't make you immune to those risks.
- SP are pretty safe on your account. With the removal of loosing SP when podded, only losing a Tech3 ship still incurs this penalty. So buying SP is a permanent advancement, buying ISK is more of a temporary boost.
- SP were designed as a class system that was flexible in allowing you to create a character defined by your preferences, but also confining you to your previous choices for a set amount of time. The benefits of the system are also it's weakness. By making real time an asset in accruing SP the skill system ensures goals in flexibility and adaptability are simple waiting games. There is something to be said for prioritization, but that will still be the case for consumed SP. The only difference is that the bar moves to effort rather than simply time being the measure of what you can do now.
The ability to select what that effort unlocks according to preference is no different than current though.
There is the question of loss, but I'm not sure that assuring opportunity for SP penalization is even a priority of the training system anymore. It seems designed to be permanent in a character's head and I'm not sure how TSP would invalidate that.
Jill Xelitras wrote:I'm not against tradeable SP as a mechanic. I have two main concerns toward the proposed system:
- The potential signal sent to new players: You have to buy SP early on to be competitive, but since you don't have much ISK as a beginner you'll have to spend real money to buy PLEX so you can afford SP. All this while paying a monthly subscription fee.
- Until now there was no grind for SP. The only thing you might want to grind for are ISK. Making SP tradeable adds SP to the list of items you may grind ISK for.
From all the discussions had around TSP, I liked the proposed idea of flattening skill dependencies as a way to help newer players to get into the gameplay they prefer quicker. The argument was that, if new players want to fly battleships, why should they have to train frigates, cruisers, small turrets, medium turrets first. Why not allow them to go straight for large turrets and the BS skill ?
Other than this I would prefer if the amount of SP you could add to a character was capped to a monthly max. This would allow CCP to analyze how the mechanic is used without it becoming a run away train. It would also preserve some of the function of the SP system: pushing you to make meaningful choices in what class/role you want to play. Otherwise, what's stopping you to be a fully skilled miner & ore refiner & industrialist & trader if it isn't the time investment ? Admittedly the one real contention I see is this potentially providing further emphasis on certain gameplay for isk generation due to the draw of TSP. In theory the game shouldn't do that, but such motivations are inevitable so long as PLEX, the Bazaar and really the market in general exist. So unless the detriment is moreso than every isk carrot currently out there we may not see as much change behaviorally.
Or maybe my own feelings on that are a minority and there will be a huge push for any free SP made available. Though, if that's so I can't wonder how much the current training system has contributed to that. |
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:18:20 -
[366] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Jill Xelitras wrote:The difference would be that TSP would allow SP trade instead of character trade. (see Sibyyl's posts. Part 1 is linked in my signature). In essence, a character has a history and reputation which have an effect beyond the actual SP. A specialized character is the result of careful planning and months of training time to achieve a skill-set. TSP is just pooling SP into packs of unallocated SP. While true the sale of SP and the sale of a character are different, I've not felt the distinctions were meaningful or beneficial to the idea of consequence the game supposedly emphasizes. For instance, buying a history, especially a negative one, means that the player who committed the acts gets paid to liquidate their consequence. I'm still having a hard time understanding that mechanic as a positive in game principle.
When trading a character, it may have meant getting paid less then for a similar character with good reputation. For the buyer it meant dealing with possible adversity.
But you're right, the current state of the game is less harsh than it used to be. Back in the days I didn't worry too much about possibly having too many SP. That is until getting podded started costing me 30 million ISK to replace my medical clone. This penalty has gone. It's also nearly impossible to forget to set skill training, since we now have the unlimited skill queue.
Taking another step to make it easier for players to create the character they want to play is good. What I don't want to see is this system directly linked to a players capacity to spend money. I'm not British, but I prefer waiting in queues to everyone rushing to get ahead of each other, or worse paying a premium to get a special treatment.
The next question is why maintain the SP system, when CCP is going to short-cut it.
Why wait a week for a skill to train if you could just buy it "instantly trained" instead ? But then why pay for a skill to "be instantly trained" when you're already paying for the skillbook and for access to the game ? If the waiting time for a skill to complete is a problem, then why not lower or remove the waiting time instead of inserting a payable short-cut ?
P.S. The character bazaar was just the lesser evil compared to people selling characters over e-bay. It wasn't a planned mechanic, but rather a response to what players were doing anyway despite it being against the EULA.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Regarding planning, there is no difference, save the idea of simply waiting out the skills to which I'd ask, so long as someone waited out that time and decided it still worth selling, what is the issue?
By planning, I meant that the seller had to decide which skills would get the best market value and establish an efficient raining plan to minimize costs and maximize profits.
The proposed SP trading system would mean that the seller can train any skill, since he only needs the SP not the skills.
In both cases you wait for SP to accrue, but in the first case the actual skills trained is what really matters. The issue is that it turns creating viable characters (miners, pvp pilots, carrier pilots ...) into farming SP.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
|
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
478
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 13:57:32 -
[367] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:The benefits of the system are also it's weakness. By making real time an asset in accruing SP the skill system ensures goals in flexibility and adaptability are simple waiting games. There is something to be said for prioritization, but that will still be the case for consumed SP. The only difference is that the bar moves to effort rather than simply time being the measure of what you can do now.
I think that the bar would move towards ability to spend money, not effort. Time has the advantage of running at the same speed for everyone.
I see 2 issues with the current system:
1) the attribute system & attribute implants is creating inequality between players for no good reason. Basically, if you can afford +5 implants you're training faster than someone with +4 and so on.
2) the game has been running for so long that some of the skillsets required are too far away to be enjoyable to train for.
-> I like what one person proposed in the SP trading thread: lowering skill dependencies for all sub-cap skills in order to lower the barrier of entry to certain playstyles.
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The ability to select what that effort unlocks according to preference is no different than current though.
There is the question of loss, but I'm not sure that assuring opportunity for SP penalization is even a priority of the training system anymore. It seems designed to be permanent in a character's head and I'm not sure how TSP would invalidate that.
Indeed SP are now almost impossible to lose and there is no penalty for having loads of SP. So far so good. What TSP would add is the ability to skip training time (not just with effort, but also with the wallet). My main concern is that this incites new players into spending real money to advance simply because CCP changed a game mechanic that they deemed bad. If a game mechanic needs to be changed, why have new players pay for it with real money ?
My logic is this: If waiting now is insufferable, when people advance at the same speed, how insufferable will it be when you can skip the waiting by spending money ? Why not demand from CCP that the waiting time be lowered or be removed ? How does spending real money ( $ -> PLEX -> ISK -> SP) seem like the better idea ?
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Admittedly the one real contention I see is this potentially providing further emphasis on certain gameplay for isk generation due to the draw of TSP. In theory the game shouldn't do that, but such motivations are inevitable so long as PLEX, the Bazaar and really the market in general exist. So unless the detriment is moreso than every isk carrot currently out there we may not see as much change behaviorally.
Or maybe my own feelings on that are a minority and there will be a huge push for any free SP made available. Though, if that's so I can't wonder how much the current training system has contributed to that.
Yes, exactly this. We used to grind for the ships we flew and wait for the skills to train, but the future could be "grind for everything". Additionally it would most impact low SP characters. With over 100M SP on my main I don't worry so much about grinding, I could even sell off my mining skills worth of SP.
So yeah, I'd rather see faster SP training for low SP characters or a flattened skill requirement tree ... why not both ... to a potential grindfest.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Asura Vajrarupa
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:12:03 -
[368] - Quote
Zakks wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:
I get that change is scary but damn! You guys get anxious over the silliest of BS.
The arguments against are solidly there. But you don't agree with them so dismiss them and the people making them by closing with an attack.
So if I left this last part off you'd have nothing to say, good to know I could include you.
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Asura Vajrarupa
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
56
|
Posted - 2015.11.26 17:35:28 -
[369] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Asura Vajrarupa wrote:Preventing it isn't the point. There is actually no policy, rule change, or mechanic that can stop RMT. Designing game mechanics, or not designing them, to prevent RMT is wasteful and stupid. I'll tell you about how you don't prevent RMT: by introducing another method to easily do so. And why introduce the method? To help newbros who are bored to death waiting for a ship doctrine to fly in? The logic does not follow. If that is a problem that needs to be solved (and no one is arguing it is a problem after the starting 400k SP bump) then it should be solved using un-tradable SP.
I already stated that focusing on rmt prevention in game design doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand. Between your post and mine at least one person has argued that low sp grind is a problem, and I'm willing to bet more if I could stand reading through the chaff of this thread. So your fantasy of no support for the idea is just that. There are at minimum two. Wake up from your confirmation bias.
Why should we use untradeable sp? How is one more burst of one time sp going to change anything? Unless suggesting CCP just sell sp, which is a terrible idea, and probably the real fear for most concerning this topic.
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us.
You don't see the cognitive dissonance in this statement?
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
483
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Posted - 2015.11.26 18:35:56 -
[370] - Quote
Asura Vajrarupa wrote:I already stated that focusing on rmt prevention in game design doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand. Between your post and mine at least one person has argued that low sp grind is a problem, and I'm willing to bet more if I could stand reading through the chaff of this thread. So your fantasy of no support for the idea is just that. There are at minimum two. Wake up from your confirmation bias.
Why should we use untradeable sp? How is one more burst of one time sp going to change anything? Unless suggesting CCP just sell sp, which is a terrible idea, and probably the real fear for most concerning this topic.
1) maybe you should indeed read what has been written on the subject ? Just an idea ...
2) I assume that combating cheating in FPS games doesn't lead to better games and is a fools errand too ?
3) Let's assume that RMT happens because people are impatient to various degrees. Let's further assume that grindy game mechanics have a tendency to lead to boredom.Let's further assume that bored impatient people engage in RMT. I would think that reducing the amount of boring, grindy mechanics would both lead to better gameplay and reduce RMT.
4) tradeable SP, as proposed would benefit the potential sellers (those who have plent of SP) more than the likely buyers (those who feel like the need to up their SP) ...
5) If you had read Sibyyl's posts you would know that she doesn't advocate CCP selling SP.
6) concerning fantasy of no support: try this.
Sibyyl wrote:Quote:All changes to the game should be to enhance player experience, to make the game a better game! Any argument against SP trading that falls outside this fact is nonsensical. Let me be very clear here, since it doesn't seem to be. You and I are players and offering our opinions. Neither of us are CCP employees (I hope!) and we don't control the IP or the game. What they decide to do is their right alone. I feel simply that I voice my opinion what I feel better adheres to the spirit of the game as CCP has themselves described it to us.
You don't see the cognitive dissonance in this statement?[/quote]
What cognitive dissonance ?
Sibyyl said in essence:
1) CCP run the show and do what they want to do.
2) You and I can only voice our opinions
3) Here's my opinion on what fits best to the way EvE was described to us.
If you're interested in what way EvE was described, here's EvE is harsh and no micro-transaction beyond vanity items.
PCU discussion Marsha's post,
SP discussion Sibyyl's post
opinions = onions*pi
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Sibyyl
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Squids
26275
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Posted - 2015.11.26 18:41:17 -
[371] - Quote
Hi Marsha,
I was going to wish you a good Thanksgiving, but I realized where you're from.
Mechanisms of RMT and their solutions:
1. ISK Trading.
RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can give money to an ISK farmer.
Solution: PLEX. Offers a legal path to instantly gain ISK at a competitive price.
2. Character trading.
RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can exchange account logins in exchange for money.
Solution: Character Bazaar. Offers CCP muscle against scams. Competitively priced (only 2 PLEX).
3. SP Trading.
RMT mechanism: Currently not a game mechanic. CCP would have to introduce it in the game, in order for players to RMT by trading SP for money.
Solution: ???
Asura, sorry I don't argue against thesauruses. Give me a substantive argument. All you're doing is saying "you're wrong".
Tyberius, good to see you in the thread! I will respond after I stuff these chickens..
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
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Dagnar
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2015.11.26 19:26:54 -
[372] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Hi Marsha, I was going to wish you a good Thanksgiving, but I realized where you're from. Mechanisms of RMT and their solutions:1. ISK Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can give money to an ISK farmer. Solution: PLEX. Offers a legal path to instantly gain ISK at a competitive price. 2. Character trading. RMT mechanism: Currently possible. Players can exchange account logins in exchange for money. Solution: Character Bazaar. Offers CCP muscle against scams. Competitively priced (only 2 PLEX). 3. SP Trading. RMT mechanism: Currently not a game mechanic. CCP would have to introduce it in the game, in order for players to RMT by trading SP for money. Solution: ??? Asura, sorry I don't argue against thesauruses. Give me a substantive argument. All you're doing is saying "you're wrong". Tyberius, good to see you in the thread! I will respond after I stuff these chickens..
3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
2429
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Posted - 2015.11.26 22:45:43 -
[373] - Quote
Dagnar wrote:3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. No.
You buy a character with flaws, with a name you don't want and a face you don't like. That is a large cost to benefit, which curbs sales.
SP trading is perfect skill injections (yeah yeah lower returns, bandaid blah blah) into a character of your choice and you would be liquidating characters that people built and may hope will live on after they are gone.
CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids
There are other ways to fix Null Sec stagnation and Fozzie SOV is the wrong approach.
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Gully Alex Foyle
Black Fox Marauders
4263
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Posted - 2015.11.28 11:06:25 -
[374] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Dagnar wrote:3. SP trading doesn't need a solution because there already is one: PLEX. You sell PLEX for isk and use isk to buy SP from other players. No. You buy a character with flaws, with a name you don't want and a face you don't like. That is a large cost to benefit, which curbs sales. SP trading is perfect skill injections (yeah yeah lower returns, bandaid blah blah) into a character of your choice and you would be liquidating characters that people built and may hope will live on after they are gone. EVE's skill training system, real-time instead of grind, is quite obviously just a (legit) way for CCP to retain customers over time, by diluting access to content.
It never ceases to amuse me when people like you make a fuss over CCP deciding to change THEIR CHOICE of how to sell skills (=game content) to players.
It's entirely a business decision (good or bad), in no way a decision affecting gameplay. Except in maybe slightly more people having a slightly wider range of ship/career choices faster, which is bad because?
So why don't you focus on playing the game instead of playing armchair businessman?
Make space glamorous!
Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9611
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Posted - 2015.11.28 20:31:51 -
[375] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it.
Putting the cash in CCP's pocket instead of third party ISK sellers in no way changes how the game is played and the fundamental problem of paying to jump ahead.
While it can certainly be argued that paying CCP for ISK is better than paying ISK-R-US is better for the game, it's faint praise. The problem is not addressed. CCP's solution to RMT was to grab a piece of it for themselves, thus encouraging the practice through making it legit. There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT.
How can that possibly be good for the game?
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
403
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Posted - 2015.11.29 16:06:18 -
[376] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it.
Only to one half: You can effectively buy ISK for Dollar, but you cannot sell ISK for Dollar. No player can legitimately make money by farming ISK and selling them. The only monetary benefit for the ISK seller is, that he doesn't have to pay his account. Every PLEX beyond that is still just an ingame item.
The problem with RMT in most games is, that you can actually make money by farming ISK/Gold/Coins/Crystals/whatever the currency is, often using bots or a bunch of chinese kids in a sweatshop. That does happen in Eve as well, E-Bay ISK selling is definitely a thing, but not as much as it would be if there were no PLEX.
CCP on the other hand, even though of course they get a nice financial cushion through PLEX, don't sell ISK, and therefore don't bot or farm. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
9612
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Posted - 2015.11.30 01:19:09 -
[377] - Quote
Neuntausend wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it. Only to one half: You can effectively buy ISK for Dollar, but you cannot sell ISK for Dollar. No player can legitimately make money by farming ISK and selling them. The only monetary benefit for the ISK seller is, that he doesn't have to pay his account. Every PLEX beyond that is still just an ingame item. The problem with RMT in most games is, that you can actually make money by farming ISK/Gold/Coins/Crystals/whatever the currency is, often using bots or a bunch of chinese kids in a sweatshop. That does happen in Eve as well, E-Bay ISK selling is definitely a thing, but not as much as it would be if there were no PLEX. CCP on the other hand, even though of course they get a nice financial cushion through PLEX, don't sell ISK, and therefore don't bot or farm. I think CCP buying ISK might be one of the best things for the longevity of the game.
A one time event to clear some of the large alliance wallets and make things fun again. Not enough notice to allow farming to matter much. Just announce that on such and such a date CCP will do a PLEX buyback for cash.
It will create some great stories of massive corp thefts. Many corps and alliances will collapse overnight as their bankers sell off all their assets and null will open up like it hasn't in years. It will also have the benefit of clearing some of the massive stockpiles of PLEX, capital fleets and minerals from the game.
This will have to be coupled with fixing ISK faucets and a reworked (or removed) PLEX system, of course. But it might be just what we need to remove the current stagnation that is plaguing the game and shake up the balance of power that virtually unlimited ISK has created for the large blocks turtled in around their money moons.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1269
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Posted - 2015.11.30 06:38:44 -
[378] - Quote
The only thing to mass protest is mass protests themselves.
Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á
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Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2015.12.01 22:31:08 -
[379] - Quote
Actually, transneural skill packs are the reason I came back. I biomassed my old main. I tried coming back a few times, but Eve really sucks at low SP and I didn't want to not be able to do the stuff I like to do for months. I didn't want to buy some character named xXDarkLordOfDarknessXx or a sexual reference from the character bazaar either. I want my character to be mine. With the those two options off the table there are two left, don't come back or CCP announces SP packs. Thankfully, CCP chose the latter. |
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
653
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Posted - 2015.12.01 23:38:09 -
[380] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Actually, transneural skill packs are the reason I came back. I biomassed my old main. I tried coming back a few times, but Eve really sucks at low SP and I didn't want to not be able to do the stuff I like to do for months. I didn't want to buy some character named xXDarkLordOfDarknessXx or a sexual reference from the character bazaar either. I want my character to be mine. With the those two options off the table there are two left, don't come back or CCP announces SP packs. Thankfully, CCP chose the latter.
What if they would offer you the third option and you be able to change those fancy names you are reffering to? And your DarkLordofDarkness became a LightLordoftheLightness? |
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MrsKaye
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2015.12.02 00:57:43 -
[381] - Quote
Funny, you think this is a bad idea..
IT'S ONE OF THE BEST I'VE HEARD CCP come up with.
Both from a company profit standpoint and the fact that new games being introduced in this market segment are not requiring skill points to fly ships, just pilot skill.
CCP is just keeping pace and thinking on their feet.... way to go! |
Asura Vajrarupa
Signal Cartel
EvE-Scout Enclave
56
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Posted - 2015.12.02 01:58:30 -
[382] - Quote
MrsKaye wrote:Funny, you think this is a bad idea..
IT'S ONE OF THE BEST I'VE HEARD CCP come up with.
Both from a company profit standpoint and the fact that new games being introduced in this market segment are not requiring skill points to fly ships, just pilot skill.
CCP is just keeping pace and thinking on their feet.... way to go!
But selling off parts of your brain because you need cash isn't cold and dark enough somehow, and that's what really matters!!!
CCP can't change their mind! It violates a thing they said once upon a time! I'd rather see EVE rot and die then see it change!
/s
Ignorance is the cause of suffering.
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Neuntausend
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
405
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Posted - 2015.12.02 02:11:35 -
[383] - Quote
So, Elite: Dangerous doesn't need skill training, so eve shouldn't need it either?
I wonder, should CCP at one point actually save Eve, by turning it into not-Eve - would they really have saved it then? |
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
33034
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Posted - 2015.12.02 12:54:47 -
[384] - Quote
without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland.
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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Cometopappa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2015.12.02 15:27:08 -
[385] - Quote
When can i buy SP's? I needs thems's,, the preciousssss!! |
Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:10:49 -
[386] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland.
If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like? |
Kaska Iskalar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.12.02 23:16:48 -
[387] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:Sibyyl wrote:PLEX reduces RMT because it provides a competitively priced alternative to RMT: buy ISK legally from CCP itself.
PLEX doesn't reduce RMT. It legitimizes it. Putting the cash in CCP's pocket instead of third party ISK sellers in no way changes how the game is played and the fundamental problem of paying to jump ahead. While it can certainly be argued that paying CCP for ISK is better than paying ISK-R-US , it's faint praise. The problem is not addressed. CCP's solution to RMT was to grab a piece of it for themselves, thus encouraging the practice through making it legit. There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT. How can that possibly be good for the game? Mr Epeen
There's nothing CCP can really do about it except ban accounts, and history has shown that the RMT industry considers that a minor speed bump at best. The only thing that can really be done to make a serious dent in RMT is the games industry getting themselves some lobbyists and either making the EULA legally binding and suing RMT companies out of business or making RMT illegal. Even that wouldn't completely stop it, but it at least wouldn't be running rampant anymore. |
Paul Pohl
blue media poetry
36
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Posted - 2015.12.03 03:54:37 -
[388] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote: There has been no time in this game's history where RMT is more prevalent than today. Whether legit or third party, RMT is RMT. Mr Epeen
Really?
As someone who has come back to the game.... I recall endless spamming in local by isk sellers - and endless moaning by people who got ripped off - ebay had a thriving market in characters who may or may not have had the skills advertised when you ponied up to buy the passwords - again the cause of endless moaning - etc
I suspect there was far more RMT changing hands then than there is now - for the simple reason than it meant far more to have the extra few million isk or whatever etc
Oh - and let's remember that this thread is about a protest that didn't happen, about the subject of someone trading the skill points accrued from Defender Missiles V to someone to get something they can use |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
1774
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Posted - 2015.12.03 19:50:12 -
[389] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland. If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like? Allow me to aid your understanding. Many of us have the capacity to like a game without needing to play it every day, week or even month. Because we take breaks doesn't mean I don't like it.
But I stay subbed, because training and the fact that the progress gained will be put to use when I return.
Does that help clarify the concept? |
Marexlovox
THORN Syndicate
Circle-Of-Two
52
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Posted - 2015.12.03 20:01:34 -
[390] - Quote
BrundleMeth wrote:Um....No...I don't give a s(h)it....
ikr
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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
33035
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Posted - 2015.12.04 13:07:07 -
[391] - Quote
Kaska Iskalar wrote:Rain6637 wrote:without skills to keep people subbed, EVE would become a space wasteland. A spaceland. If skill training is the only reason you stay subbed why are you playing a game you clearly don't like?
Someone is using their JUMP... to conclusions mat!
Help, I can't download EVE
President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
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