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Stop the wars !!! I want to do my own thing !!!

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Dave Day Universal Freelance 120	Posted - 2016.07.22 21:44:01 - [1] - Quote Well.....kinda. I do accept that wars are part of Eve. A very important part. But i'd like to make a suggestion on behalf of those of who just aren't into pvp. I hope that the reaction of the community will be a considered response and not just the usual "learn to fight" and "can I have your stuff". I've been around since just after launch in 2003. 13 years (without taking a break) and I hope the community will allow me a voice. As I said, not everyone is into pvp. I still have the original game CD box on my shelf, which says I can "be anything I want to be". Well, what I want is to be left in peace to build my stuff and mine my ore with my friends. The current game mechanics simply won't allow that. So what do I want then? Well, i'd like to be excluded from wardecs. Please read on before you hit the flame button: I think it would be a great idea if CCP allowed corps who have no interest in pvp to sign into an opt out clause, which carries penalties for that corp. For instance, they can't build any structures (it's only fair that structures are vulnerable). They can't declare war. They pay additional taxes to buy and sell on the market and additional manufacturing costs. They suffer a mining penalty, perhaps even a general penalty to all aspects of their ships stats. They get lower mission rewards, etc etc. and they are of course as vulnerable as anyone else in low and null sec. In short, they are disadvantaged. They must pay the price of peace. I know....go join an NPC corp then. But as we all know the purpose of a corp is to have that small space in the game shared with you and your buddies. Concord already effectively takes bribes (the wardec fees) to turn a blind eye to aggression. Surely it wouldn't be taking it out of character if it charged "protection money" to those who don't want to fight? If you're into fighting there are plenty of players willing to give you a fight. But I see many people who just want to mine and chat or build and sell things who quickly realise that they just aren't going to be allowed to do that in a casual, peaceful corp. So they play for a month or so and quit. In a time of falling subscriptions I wonder if it would be so harmful for CCP to finally consider those who don't consider their time in Eve to be solely fighting? I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion?
Marsha Mallow 2877	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:06:38 - [2] - Quote There have been some proposals for 'social' corps with some of those features. Tbh a topic like this will just draw attention to your corp, I'd scrub it personally* and repost on an alt regarding this topic. But I would say, having started out in empire and had loads of decs during build up phase, try moving. NPC null, lowsec, renting, sovnull are easier in some ways than trying to run a corp of a certain size in empire. It's not a bad thing to move about and test out new areas. * if you do scrub it I'll delete this reply too, but be aware both posts will still be visible on eve-search. Sometimes alt posting is justified. [15:41:27] svara EVE HAS BEEN TERRIBLE SINCE PL TOOK OVER CCP GAMES, WAS MUCH BETTER WHEN GOONS RAN IT, BRING BACK SOUNDWAVE
Paranoid Loyd 9289	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:09:19 - [3] - Quote If you don't wanna get war dec'd don't form a corp, pretty simple. Fix the Prospect! New Server Hardware!
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12614	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:09:48 - [4] - Quote I don't want your stuff. Can I have your SP instead, please? Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Marius Duvane The Scope Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:11:55 - [5] - Quote I recently returned to EVE after several years away. I have mostly been playing solo PvE (L4 missions, Scope Network events, etc.) and began to search for a highsec corp to join so I could learn more, make friends, etc. I may want to PvP in the future, but for now I wanted to keep to PvE, including incursions. What I have found is that every time I look for a highsec corp, it's usually in the middle of being wardec'ed ceaselessly by merc corps that simply throw 50mil ISK out there and wardec random corps by the dozen. This means that if I want to stay in a player corp, I can't do incursions, I can't do Scope Network or missions with my expensive ships (I know, don't fly what you can't afford to lose--but I'm not wealthy, I can't afford to replace a billion ISK ships over and over). I have to either quit the corp or sit in the dock for a week, and hope we don't get wardec'ed again by some other random corp the next day. I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand here; I know that PvP is a large part of EVE. But when it's so easy to force PvP on the players who are attempting to do PvE, then that's the kind of mechanic that makes "carebears" want to spend their time in another game that better protects their interests. I don't know what the solution is. My best thought is that it should cost more than 50mil to wardec, and the price should increase with each simultaneous wardec, so that corps can't just wardec 30 random corps and then sit back and shoot the targets passing through Jita, etc.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16952	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:18:13 - [6] - Quote i smell blood in the water , whats going on in here? wars are trivial to dodge , (provided you dont have any citadels that is) fold the corp and reform. that aside, if you cant defend your members of facilitate them doing so themselves you can pay a lot of the people who have been mauling ye to defend you instead. defense contracts are a thing and provided you haven't talked your way onto the shitlist , might actually be your solution. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 2959	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:25:45 - [7] - Quote Sweet Hastur... OP are you actually serious? Things are better and safer for PVE players now than they have ever been before. I don't actually know how to respond to this articulately after the recent castration of war corps that actively hunt their targets. Well, without spitting teeth at the screen, that is. No more nerfs. Get back under your bridge, troll. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16952	Posted - 2016.07.22 22:38:56 - [8] - Quote Marius Duvane wrote: I recently returned to EVE after several years away. I have mostly been playing solo PvE (L4 missions, Scope Network events, etc.) and began to search for a highsec corp to join so I could learn more, make friends, etc. I may want to PvP in the future, but for now I wanted to keep to PvE, including incursions. What I have found is that every time I look for a highsec corp, it's usually in the middle of being wardec'ed ceaselessly by merc corps that simply throw 50mil ISK out there and wardec random corps by the dozen. This means that if I want to stay in a player corp, I can't do incursions, I can't do Scope Network or missions with my expensive ships (I know, don't fly what you can't afford to lose--but I'm not wealthy, I can't afford to replace a billion ISK ships over and over). I have to either quit the corp or sit in the dock for a week, and hope we don't get wardec'ed again by some other random corp the next day. I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand here; I know that PvP is a large part of EVE. But when it's so easy to force PvP on the players who are attempting to do PvE, then that's the kind of mechanic that makes "carebears" want to spend their time in another game that better protects their interests. I don't know what the solution is. My best thought is that it should cost more than 50mil to wardec, and the price should increase with each simultaneous wardec, so that corps can't just wardec 30 random corps and then sit back and shoot the targets passing through Jita, etc. here we go again, i knew i wasent done with this conversation i just knew it. read this then this then this Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Cory Za 71	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:12:52 - [9] - Quote With respect OMG Quote: As I said, not everyone is into pvp. I still have the original game CD box on my shelf, which says I can "be anything I want to be". Well, what I want is to be left in peace to build my stuff and mine my ore with my friends. The current game mechanics simply won't allow that. I totally get that, I do, but your being a bit selfish in forcing everyone who plays to play your way. Re read what the box says. YOU CAN BE ANYTHING. ( bad guy or s miner.) What game did you think you were playing. - this is not runescape. This IS what makes eve fun, a bit of danger and thrill not a mind dead game that you can just dwell out from.. play, get ship, die, get new ship. no problem CCP: Don't let EVE become another Chinese grind fest MMO where you pay to play to be the best with the most. The internet is full of them and they are a dime a dozen. Gÿ£GÿåGÿP __Unemployed__ Gÿ£GÿåGÿP
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 269	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:18:01 - [10] - Quote Sisi. You can mine all day and nobody's allowed to poke you there. It's just... there's not a lot to do with your minerals and ice. A signature :o
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8386	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:28:19 - [11] - Quote There has been enough gentrification of EVE already, thanks, but no. Also F&I is that way --> . Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1434	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:35:19 - [12] - Quote Dave Day wrote: a suggestion on behalf of those of who just aren't into pvp. They came to the Wrong neighbourhood. Seriously though, go do anything on Sisi, the test server and try to stay awake. Without the salt and sugar of losses and gains involving the will of others, EvE is a bland meal. You want to profit in an ocean of violent chaos without being subject to it, i get that. You'd hate that eventually, because, you know, human nature. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 19	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:38:09 - [13] - Quote Dave Day wrote: IConcord already effectively takes bribes (the wardec fees) to turn a blind eye to aggression. Surely it wouldn't be taking it out of character if it charged "protection money" to those who don't want to fight? I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? My first response is that your suggested change makes the game not be the game it is. (Bad grammar I know). The game is not safe and was never to be safe and it has been so since the beginning. If WoW or LOTRO or pick whatever suddenly changed to allow PvP everywhere it would make the game not be the game it is. As to protection money and relating it to in-game lore, it is much easier to ignore something happening than prevent something happening. Rival groups fight all the time over "protected" territories.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26359	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:39:25 - [14] - Quote If you want to play in a social group without the risk of wardecs, drop to an NPC corp and start a chat channel for like minded folks, it won't matter what corp they're in and you'll essentially have a corp chat with none of the penalties. As mentioned above CCP were looking into social corps which would basically be the same thing. Avoiding unwanted attention is fairly easy, mine in fleets preferably with some Skiffs or Procurers in fleet for their nastiness fleet chat means people don't tend to afk unless they have to, 3rd party haul stuff to market with appropriate collateral (Red Frog and PushX are both very good at getting your stuff to where you want it in one piece) and don't make posts on the forums whining about wardecs lest you become the instigator of a kill it forward incident . With reference to wardec fees, while Concord may seem to the police they're actually more like game park wardens, you pay for a licence and you're allowed to hunt a select herd freely, don't pay for a licence and they'll hunt you down and kill your arse if you kill anything without good reason, such as deceiving the prey into attacking you first. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dark Lord Trump Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 53	Posted - 2016.07.22 23:55:21 - [15] - Quote Well, why do you get to be the coddled industrialist if I can't be the mercenary who hunts you down? After all, the box says I can be whatever I want to be. I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1436	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:02:36 - [16] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: My first response is that your suggested change makes the game not be the game it is. They don't want it to be like it is, but it do. It do be like it is. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26362	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:12:54 - [17] - Quote [offtopic] @ Dark Lord Trump, is your hair a sentient being and does it act as an ongrid booster? [/offtopic] Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4980	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:22:23 - [18] - Quote Marius Duvane wrote: I recently returned to EVE after several years away. I have mostly been playing solo PvE (L4 missions, Scope Network events, etc.) and began to search for a highsec corp to join so I could learn more, make friends, etc. I may want to PvP in the future, but for now I wanted to keep to PvE, including incursions. What I have found is that every time I look for a highsec corp, it's usually in the middle of being wardec'ed ceaselessly by merc corps that simply throw 50mil ISK out there and wardec random corps by the dozen. This means that if I want to stay in a player corp, I can't do incursions, I can't do Scope Network or missions with my expensive ships (I know, don't fly what you can't afford to lose--but I'm not wealthy, I can't afford to replace a billion ISK ships over and over). I have to either quit the corp or sit in the dock for a week, and hope we don't get wardec'ed again by some other random corp the next day. I don't think I'm burying my head in the sand here; I know that PvP is a large part of EVE. But when it's so easy to force PvP on the players who are attempting to do PvE, then that's the kind of mechanic that makes "carebears" want to spend their time in another game that better protects their interests. I don't know what the solution is. My best thought is that it should cost more than 50mil to wardec, and the price should increase with each simultaneous wardec, so that corps can't just wardec 30 random corps and then sit back and shoot the targets passing through Jita, etc. The solution was not to change things like CCP did....but they did it anyways, so too bad. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Khergit Deserters Crom's Angels 4555	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:22:36 - [19] - Quote I think the game design team needs to rethink the whole idea of high sec war declarations. Wardec evolution: -The idea was for angry player corps in high sec to be able to try to eliminate each other. -Players spotted an opportunity, and started trying their hands at being leet PVP specialists wardeccing other highsec corps, to extort bigarse-ISK ransoms. To do so took some diligence, patience, and some degree of cajones. They had to suss out the wardecced corp's base, sit around camping, and hope somebody would poke his head over the fence. -Which led to actual mercenary corps. Instead of paying the ransom or putting the corp into cryonic freeze for days or weeks, you could hire a merc corp to hopefully take out the aggressors. Now the decced corp members have got a few dimensions of things to think about and hash around among themselves. Negotiations with outside parties going on, bankruptcy-level payments being discussed, pay vs. fight vs. can't undock until who knows when discussions. How cool is that? Very cool, I tell you. It really was war, and regular small-group players in little tribes were hashing out War Room meetings around their little campfires. You can believe that every dang player was logged on as soon after work or school to see what was going to happen next. -Which led to a new innovation, to be correctly attributed to Marmite, I believe. Wardeccing of big, public corps with poorly informed or probably just inattentive member. For example, RVB, Estelle Arador (sp?), etc. Pick a good traffic pipeline and pick them off as they come through. (At the time, Marmite would actually scram a ship and hold it for ransom negotiations. Trapped pilot still had some ). -(film caption) Present Day. World of Wardec! Perpetual multiple wardecs, (to use Ralph's phrase) hub humping, sitting around popping kills on unsuspecting solo guys. True, the could have/should have known better, but so what? From a game design perspective, does it make the game more intriguing? Does it make people look forward to logging on and seeing what's going to happen next? I doubt it, it's just repetitive quick rewards stuff. Start the bubble machine! -Lawrence Welk
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4980	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:23:37 - [20] - Quote Dammit double post. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
DeMichael Crimson Republic University Minmatar Republic 55780	Posted - 2016.07.23 00:51:59 - [21] - Quote Read the OP and agree with the general intention. Yeah, pay Concord a monthly fee to be taken off the WarDec list and suffer penalties across the board on everything from increased fees to lower stats. However forming a Player Corp and having a POS structure go hand in hand. Maybe limit it to only being able to access and own small POS structure. Anyway, +1 to the OP for sharing his viewpoint. DMC 'The Plan' \| California Eve Players \| Proposal - The Endless Battle
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 23	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:16:54 - [22] - Quote DeMichael Crimson wrote: Read the OP and agree with the general intention. Yeah, pay Concord a monthly fee to be taken off the WarDec list and suffer penalties across the board on everything from increased fees to lower stats. However forming a Player Corp and having a POS structure go hand in hand. Maybe limit it to only being able to access and own small POS structure. Anyway, +1 to the OP for sharing his viewpoint. DMC What if another corp wants to anchor their POS where this corp, let's call it Invincicorp, anchored their POS? Also, Ininvicorp has just become an untouchable supply chain provider for corps that are at war. How is this different from neutral logi or ganking about which I hear so much teeth gnashing? Spoiler: In case you do not know the answer there is one major difference. In this scenario there is only one counter that I can think of to stop Invincicorp from providing logistical assistance to a corp that may be my enemy - ganking. You can shoot neutral logi and you can avoid ganking. Fine you say, there is a counter, however the counter is grossly inconsistent with other counters - i.e. you lose your ship employing it - guaranteed, every time. You may lose your ship by engaging neutral logi and you may lose your ship by a large gank overwhelming your tank, but it is not an absolute. Ok, you say, so then Invincicorp is further restricted by, what, only trading amongst themselves? So should we just give Invincicorp their own system? Should we seed the market for them as well so they do not have to interact with others at all? Should their system get all the finest sites and rats and roids as well? At some point it comes down to the fact that EVE is one, big, dysfunctional family on one server on which anyone can interact with anyone at anytime. This game was not designed or envisioned to allow a person or group to separate themselves from the rest of the family (unless you can make a line and prevent people form crossing it, or going under it, or blowing it all to hell).
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 618	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:34:02 - [23] - Quote As Marsha wrote in the first reply, the concept of a 'social corp' is probably what you are looking for. Hopefully CCP revisit the idea. I don't disagree with the OP's overall sentiment, however the idea of paying CONCORD a protection fee is not the way to go IMO. In the OPs proposal: 1. A corp pays a protection fee to CONCORD to be free from wardecs 2. Said Corp members can still gank, go pvp in lowsec or null, etc. That is, it's a one way transaction despite the disadvantages of higher taxes, lower yields, etc. If a pvp focused Corp, or a group of gankers - who never intend to PvE - want protection from being wardecced, then they can use the proposed mechanic to limit ways in which others can respond to their activities, but still be free to play how they want regardless. It's a concept that only works ok for purely PvE Corps that will never take part in pvp, ever. I'm not really expressing that properly as the obvious example of NPC Corps is like what the OP wants, but with the additional benefits of social tools. But overall, removing tools from people isn't the way I think this should be done. Give people more tools that provide them with new ways to play how they want. Don't put in mechanics that restrict other people's choices just so you can play how you want. So IMO, just provide the social tools that anyone can use, no matter if they are in a player run Corp, or an NPC owned Corp. There's nothing wrong with have more ways to socialise in the game.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 23	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:38:42 - [24] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I'm not really expressing that properly as the obvious example of NPC Corps is like what the OP wants, but with the additional benefits of social tools. So IMO, just provide the social tools that anyone can use, no matter if they are in a player run Corp, or an NPC owned Corp. There's nothing wrong with have more ways to socialise in the game. So......a.....chat channel?
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 618	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:41:14 - [25] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I'm not really expressing that properly as the obvious example of NPC Corps is like what the OP wants, but with the additional benefits of social tools. So IMO, just provide the social tools that anyone can use, no matter if they are in a player run Corp, or an NPC owned Corp. There's nothing wrong with have more ways to socialise in the game. So......a.....chat channel? No, the concept of the social corps that was discussed a couple of years ago. If you think social tools are simply a chat channel, you are an idiot. The concept that was discussed included things like, shared fittings so public fleets could provide access to fittings to people easily, shared contracts which also help people fit ships and provide them easily to people in the social group, shared calendar so events could be scheduled, etc. A lot more than just a chat channel.
Sitting Bull Lakota Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 111	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:43:26 - [26] - Quote Dave Day wrote: ... aren't into pvp... ...been around since... 2003. 13 years... ...voice. ... not everyone... pvp... original...CD box... shelf... "be anything I want to be" ... left in peace... build... mine... friends... won't allow that. ... excluded from wardecs. Please read... flame button: ...great idea...CCP... no pvp corp... peace. I know....join an NPC corp then ... Concord... bribes... don't want to fight... If you... fighting... plenty of players... you fight... But... just want... mine... chat... build... sell things... casual, peaceful corp ...play for a month... quit... falling subscriptions... CCP... don't... fighting? You might as well have entitled this thread "One More Nerf" for all the clich+¬s you fired off. Quote: I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? (Social corps that can't be decced) Just one: CCP Falcon wrote: I love EVE and the core of what the game stands for. That's why I've been dedicated to it and its community for over 11 years now. Risk vs Reward is a huge part of that. Honestly, if that changed, and the game started to soften out and cater to those who want to have their hand held all the way through their gameplay experience, I'd rather not be working on the project regardless of how many subscribers we had, than sell out the core principles that New Eden was built on. That's a sentiment that I hear a lot around the office, because we are all invested in what makes New Eden so compelling - The dark, gritty, hard reality beneath the pretty ships and nebulas. EVE is built on the core principle that you are never 100% safe, no matter where you go or what you do. When you interact with another player, you roll the dice on whether they're going to screw you over or not. That's a massive part of the social engineering behind the very basic underpinnings of the EVE Universe. I don't want to see EvE stray further from the dystopia described above, but I fear CCP cares more about appeasing you than me.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 24	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:49:02 - [27] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I'm not really expressing that properly as the obvious example of NPC Corps is like what the OP wants, but with the additional benefits of social tools. So IMO, just provide the social tools that anyone can use, no matter if they are in a player run Corp, or an NPC owned Corp. There's nothing wrong with have more ways to socialise in the game. So......a.....chat channel? No, the concept of the social corps that was discussed a couple of years ago. If you think social tools are simply a chat channel, you are an idiot. The concept that was discussed included things like, shared fittings so public fleets could provide access to fittings to people easily, shared contracts which also help people fit ships and provide them easily to people in the social group, shared calendar so events could be scheduled, etc. A lot more than just a chat channel. And this needs to be a special group because...why? Forgive the question, apparently I am an idiot. To prove that fact, I admit that I do not understand why I would share a contract with anyone. I believe I can invite anyone to a calendar event. Oh and I can share fittings with anyone with a drag and drop to a, wait for it, chat channel.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 24	Posted - 2016.07.23 01:53:40 - [28] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: I'm not really expressing that properly as the obvious example of NPC Corps is like what the OP wants, but with the additional benefits of social tools. So IMO, just provide the social tools that anyone can use, no matter if they are in a player run Corp, or an NPC owned Corp. There's nothing wrong with have more ways to socialise in the game. So......a.....chat channel? No, the concept of the social corps that was discussed a couple of years ago. If you think social tools are simply a chat channel, you are an idiot. The concept that was discussed included things like, shared fittings so public fleets could provide access to fittings to people easily, shared contracts which also help people fit ships and provide them easily to people in the social group, shared calendar so events could be scheduled, etc. A lot more than just a chat channel. And this needs to be a special group because...why? Forgive the question, apparently I am an idiot. To prove that fact, I admit that I do not understand why I would share a contract with anyone. I believe I can invite anyone to a calendar event. Oh and I can share fittings with anyone with a drag and drop to a, wait for it, chat channel. But hey, I am not unreasonable, go ahead and have your Invincicorp - with one little twist. Your corp can not be wardecced; however, individual members can be wardecced. We can even restrict it so no more than 50% of corp members can be decced at one time.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 618	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:00:25 - [29] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: And this needs to be a special group because...why? Forgive the question, apparently I am an idiot. To prove that fact, I admit that I do not understand why I would share a contract with anyone. I believe I can invite anyone to a calendar event. Oh and I can share fittings with anyone with a drag and drop to a, wait for it, chat channel. Who said it needs to be a special group? It's just more tools that people can use. And yes, you clearly are an idiot. So take your situation for example, you are in a player Corp and have access to the social aspects provided to a player Corp. That's great. But say you also want to take part in Spectre Fleet Roams, Affirmatives roams, or major annual roams like Waffles Birthday roams, etc. Currently, to find out anything about those events, third-party tools are needed. Posts to r/eve, external websites, posts in the in game events forum (which as a subsection of the forum, has few players reading it) and other tools external to the game are used to spread the word, get people involved, provide information about fittings, etc. Until the CREST end points for fittings were available, gaining information about standard fittings for different groups was a PITA, and there are still difficulties in running those public groups that cross the boundaries we normally put around ourselves when we join a player Corp or choose to stay in an NPC Corp. Getting the information out, organising ships, etc. falls on a few people doing quite a bit of extra work. Instead, by providing additional tools to people, it would be possible for you to sign up to all of those groups and be able to access information anytime you are on, even if the organisers of the groups are not online. It doesn't take much intelligence to see how actually providing more tools in game (as opposed to nerfing choices of people as proposed in the OP) can help people form additional social connections, all of which will help contribute to 'meaningful experiences' that CCP view as important indicators of long term retention in the game.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:23:22 - [30] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: And this needs to be a special group because...why? Forgive the question, apparently I am an idiot. To prove that fact, I admit that I do not understand why I would share a contract with anyone. I believe I can invite anyone to a calendar event. Oh and I can share fittings with anyone with a drag and drop to a, wait for it, chat channel. Who said it needs to be a special group? It's just more tools that people can use. And yes, you clearly are an idiot. So take your situation for example, you are in a player Corp and have access to the social aspects provided to a player Corp. That's great. But say you also want to take part in Spectre Fleet Roams, Affirmatives roams, or major annual roams like Waffles Birthday roams, etc. Currently, to find out anything about those events, third-party tools are needed. Posts to r/eve, external websites, posts in the in game events forum (which as a subsection of the forum, has few players reading it) and other tools external to the game are used to spread the word, get people involved, provide information about fittings, etc. Until the CREST end points for fittings were available, gaining information about standard fittings for different groups was a PITA, and there are still difficulties in running those public groups that cross the boundaries we normally put around ourselves when we join a player Corp or choose to stay in an NPC Corp. Getting the information out, organising ships, etc. falls on a few people doing quite a bit of extra work. Instead, by providing additional tools to people, it would be possible for you to sign up to all of those groups and be able to access information anytime you are on, even if the organisers of the groups are not online. It doesn't take much intelligence to see how actually providing more tools in game (as opposed to nerfing choices of people as proposed in the OP) can help people form additional social connections, all of which will help contribute to 'meaningful experiences' that CCP view as important indicators of long term retention in the game. Feeling pretty superior I see. Always a good attitude to take with someone you do not know. The OP said it needed to be a special group. Your points taken in the vacuum that is only your posts in this thread seem perfectly good ideas. However, the entire thread is about forming a "special group" to avoid wardecs. Perhaps you can now understand my confusion. Or you can just call me an idiot again. To respond to your ideas about more social tools and to stray further off topic: If there are current methods for achieving these goals then why should a game development company shift or add resources to duplicate those inside the game environment? Is this time not better spent maintaining and growing actual game play? Oh and I've been part of incursion groups that do all of these things with in game tools.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:25:28 - [31] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: And this needs to be a special group because...why? Forgive the question, apparently I am an idiot. To prove that fact, I admit that I do not understand why I would share a contract with anyone. I believe I can invite anyone to a calendar event. Oh and I can share fittings with anyone with a drag and drop to a, wait for it, chat channel. Who said it needs to be a special group? It's just more tools that people can use. And yes, you clearly are an idiot. So take your situation for example, you are in a player Corp and have access to the social aspects provided to a player Corp. That's great. But say you also want to take part in Spectre Fleet Roams, Affirmatives roams, or major annual roams like Waffles Birthday roams, etc. Currently, to find out anything about those events, third-party tools are needed. Posts to r/eve, external websites, posts in the in game events forum (which as a subsection of the forum, has few players reading it) and other tools external to the game are used to spread the word, get people involved, provide information about fittings, etc. Until the CREST end points for fittings were available, gaining information about standard fittings for different groups was a PITA, and there are still difficulties in running those public groups that cross the boundaries we normally put around ourselves when we join a player Corp or choose to stay in an NPC Corp. Getting the information out, organising ships, etc. falls on a few people doing quite a bit of extra work. Instead, by providing additional tools to people, it would be possible for you to sign up to all of those groups and be able to access information anytime you are on, even if the organisers of the groups are not online. It doesn't take much intelligence to see how actually providing more tools in game (as opposed to nerfing choices of people as proposed in the OP) can help people form additional social connections, all of which will help contribute to 'meaningful experiences' that CCP view as important indicators of long term retention in the game. Feeling pretty superior I see. Always a good attitude to take with someone you do not know. The OP said it needed to be a special group. Your points taken in the vacuum that is only your posts in this thread seem perfectly good ideas. However, the entire thread is about forming a "special group" to avoid wardecs. Perhaps you can now understand my confusion. Or you can just call me an idiot again. To respond to your ideas about more social tools and to stray further off topic: If there are current methods for achieving these goals then why should a game development company shift or add resources to duplicate those inside the game environment? Is this time not better spent maintaining and growing actual game play? .
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 621	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:28:57 - [32] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Feeling pretty superior I see. Always a good attitude to take with someone you do not know. The OP said it needed to be a special group. Your points taken in the vacuum that is only your posts in this thread seem perfectly good ideas. However, the entire thread is about forming a "special group" to avoid wardecs. Perhaps you can now understand my confusion. Or you can just call me an idiot again. To respond to your ideas about more social tools and to stray further off topic: If there are current methods for achieving these goals then why should a game development company shift or add resources to duplicate those inside the game environment? Is this time not better spent maintaining and growing actual game play? Oh and I've been part of incursion groups that do all of these things with in game tools. And yet, when you responded suggesting what I wrote just meant a chat channel, you responded to my post. If you wanted it to be in relation to the OP, then you probably should have addressed him. Since you quoted me and asked if that just meant a chat channel, I responded accordingly, because it isn't like any of this information is secret. It's all public if you just took the effort to go read it. Unfortunately, you took the lazy way of assuming something different, so you got the response you asked for. If you didn't want that, then go do some reading first before replying like an idiot.
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 444	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:36:53 - [33] - Quote Of course, the sociopaths have rushed to exclaim "something something KILL KILL KILL". However, since the vast majority of gamers would pay real money to play a game where the one eye-browed knuckle-draggers could only diddle with each other...and since a lot of gaming companies who went t!ts up and broke at the clamoring this PvP minority felt they just had to create (just to survive as a group...not all stupid, eh?) it would behoove a company to ignore the sociopathic, yet very loud minority (who largely pay in PLEX) and listen to those who actually use MONEY...in terms of enlightened self-interest and seriously consider the OP's point. But, they won't. This proves my theory that everybody in the world (except me) has lost their minds. If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:39:25 - [34] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Feeling pretty superior I see. Always a good attitude to take with someone you do not know. The OP said it needed to be a special group. Your points taken in the vacuum that is only your posts in this thread seem perfectly good ideas. However, the entire thread is about forming a "special group" to avoid wardecs. Perhaps you can now understand my confusion. Or you can just call me an idiot again. To respond to your ideas about more social tools and to stray further off topic: If there are current methods for achieving these goals then why should a game development company shift or add resources to duplicate those inside the game environment? Is this time not better spent maintaining and growing actual game play? Oh and I've been part of incursion groups that do all of these things with in game tools. And yet, when you responded suggesting what I wrote just meant a chat channel, you responded to my post. If you wanted it to be in relation to the OP, then you probably should have addressed him. Since you quoted me and asked if that just meant a chat channel, I responded accordingly, because it isn't like any of this information is secret. It's all public if you just took the effort to go read it. Unfortunately, you took the lazy way of assuming something different, so you got the response you asked for. If you didn't want that, then go do some reading first before replying like an idiot. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. I may be ignorant of something proposed "a couple of years ago" that has little relevance to the topic at hand I will admit. I may be na+»ve to expect posts in a certain topic to be on topic - which you are saying yours was not. But I am certainly an idiot to believe for one second that I can actually change anyone's mind on an internet forum.
Tsukino Stareine Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found 1583	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:40:49 - [35] - Quote The price of peace could be to hire a merc corp to fight for you.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:43:57 - [36] - Quote Sustrai Aditua wrote: Of course, the sociopaths have rushed to exclaim "something something KILL KILL KILL". However, since the vast majority of gamers would pay real money to play a game where the one eye-browed knuckle-draggers could only diddle with each other...and since a lot of gaming companies who went t!ts up and broke at the clamoring this PvP minority felt they just had to create (just to survive as a group...not all stupid, eh?) it would behoove a company to ignore the sociopathic, yet very loud minority (who largely pay in PLEX) and listen to those who actually use MONEY...in terms of enlightened self-interest and seriously consider the OP's point. But, they won't. This proves my theory that everybody in the world (except me) has lost their minds. Wow such abuse of terms - idiot, sociopath. Words have meaning people and proper usage. Dictionaries are free and online these days. Oh and PLEX=Money to CCP. As has been oft cited in these forums - someone bought that PLEX with hard currency that went to CCP. That person then sold it for iskies in game to the knuckle-dragging, sociopaths.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 621	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:45:27 - [37] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: I may be ignorant of something proposed "a couple of years ago" that has little relevance to the topic at hand I will admit. I may be na+»ve to expect posts in a certain topic to be on topic - which you are saying yours was not. But I am certainly an idiot... My post was on topic, as the mechanisms the OP proposed have been discussed previously, and proposed by CCP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5443410#post5443410 (and discussed with the CSM) and CCP apparently still plan on implementing the idea in one form or another: http://i.imgur.com/TAn95ZG.png (note, that is not from 27 days ago as indicated. The screenshot is a bit older than that). As to the last bit quoted, it's good we agree.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 02:52:31 - [38] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: I may be ignorant of something proposed "a couple of years ago" that has little relevance to the topic at hand I will admit. I may be na+»ve to expect posts in a certain topic to be on topic - which you are saying yours was not. But I am certainly an idiot... My post was on topic, as the mechanisms the OP proposed have been discussed previously, and proposed by CCP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5443410#post5443410 (and discussed with the CSM) and CCP apparently still plan on implementing the idea in one form or another: http://i.imgur.com/TAn95ZG.png (note, that is not from 27 days ago as indicated. The screenshot is a bit older than that). As to the last bit quoted, it's good we agree. It is on topic if the topic of stopping wars to Invincicorp is the same topic as adding "X social network" and "X Productivity Software" in game to organize a group is the same topic.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26369	Posted - 2016.07.23 03:27:15 - [39] - Quote On the subject of PLEX and for the hard of understanding, PLEX is purchased with real money at a cost that is greater than the price of a sub; ergo every PLEX that gets consumed for game time has in fact put more money into CCPs wallet than the equivalent subscription would have. As for the poster calling people sociopaths and the like, just stop, you look foolish. Eve is a role playing game, hence the RPG in MMORPG, which allows greater freedoms to role play than the majority of others games; basically it allows people to explore the chaotic and lawless side of role playing in addition to the norms. Without the people who explore the "dark" side Eve would be A: boring, and B: in dire straits indeed; they write the stories, they create the risks in what many mistakenly think is, or should be, safe space, they create a goodly chunk of the demand for the products and services of the industrialists, haulers and miners etc, etc. When people choose to follow the, often much more fun, more swashbuckling or mercenary professions, in my experience it is very rarely a reflection on them in real life. TL;DR Everywhere is for PvP, if you're in a non combatant profession you can either plan for, or around, it and not explode, or don't bother and explode. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 621	Posted - 2016.07.23 03:39:21 - [40] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: It is on topic if the topic of stopping wars to Invincicorp is the same topic as adding "X social network" and "X Productivity Software" in game to organize a group is the same topic. That is one side effect. Yes. Why not go read the 45 page thread that is linked, which just happens to say right in the very third post: Apparently there are talks to create un-war deccable corps in hi sec. Reading is not hard.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 04:57:21 - [41] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: It is on topic if the topic of stopping wars to Invincicorp is the same topic as adding "X social network" and "X Productivity Software" in game to organize a group is the same topic. That is one side effect. Yes. Why not go read the 45 page thread that is linked, which just happens to say right in the very third post: Apparently there are talks to create un-war deccable corps in hi sec. Reading is not hard. Wow. You are a pompous ass. Anyway, I suggest that a fundamental change allowing a player to be exempt from PvP is a bit more than a side effect. From what I read of your other posts, I believe that you agree with me. So, what am I missing? Are you suggesting that these "social tools" are so important that people are willing to sacrifice one of the tenents of the game?
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 840	Posted - 2016.07.23 04:59:32 - [42] - Quote I had a silly idea when I read the OP. What if you could pay off concord? We have a 24 hour war stasis period, where 50mil or more is automatically frozen for the wardec ahead and the dec is ALREADY pending, but what would happen if during that 24 hour period you could travel to a Concord station and bid up the war dec fee with a counter offer, aka bribe, to Concord to call the entire thing off. This offer is then sent to the deccing corp to be in turn bid up or just let go of the war dec. This can happen as many times as you want during the 24 hour build up period. Ultimately its a matter of how much is it worth to you? is the question of the day. All of the winners isk bid goes to Concord and becomes an isk sink, either to wardec or provide immunity bribes and at least 10% of the next highest bidders isk would also go to ensure that both sides do "pay" for the fun game of bidding on a war dec. Basically you could ironically raise a war deccers fees to insane amounts or you could screw over some indy corp out of hundreds of millions of isk to "save themselves". And in the end its basically playing chicken or all in or fold poker with your war deccers. Another idea I had was to let it be public record and have anyone bid on a war dec/immunity fee. But either way itd add a gamble to a war dec situation and an isk sink to CCP for playing it. Yes in the end you would only be tossing isk at the problem and most people wouldnt bother or care but some would and itd be a funny thing to see how much you could get someone to pay for either given interesting circumstances. It would favor isk rich corps/alliances or players in order to toss isk away but then is that something thats new now? No not really. But I think a bit of a gambling mini game would be hilarious to see and might actually make it a bit more interesting than what it is now. And seeing as each player, corp or alliance would have a different "break even" point on the relative worth of a dec or immunity it might make for some interesting player interactions solely on that level. And making it public to some point at least means that you could have bragging rights in C&P on both sides of the bargaining table. Either way was a funny idea that came to me just now. Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4981	Posted - 2016.07.23 05:49:07 - [43] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: I had a silly idea when I read the OP. What if you could pay off concord? [snip] Yes, that is what a war dec is essentially. Somebody has paid CONCORD to look the other way when they come to shoot your stuff. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Tao Dolcino EVE University Ivy League 550	Posted - 2016.07.23 08:32:25 - [44] - Quote You forget that new players are poor, they couldn't bid. Unless they play the "pay to win" game (buying PLEX with RL money to sell it in game for ISK). What a sense of achievement CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 840	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:01:52 - [45] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: I had a silly idea when I read the OP. What if you could pay off concord? [snip] Yes, that is what a war dec is essentially. Somebody has paid CONCORD to look the other way when they come to shoot your stuff. Yes but if you hadnt "snipped" and instead read you wouldve read a funny idea to turn that pay off into both an isk sink and an interesting lil mini game, a psychological game of isk "chicken" between players, corps or alliances..... good thing you dont read much though... Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 622	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:13:05 - [46] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Anyway, I suggest that a fundamental change allowing a player to be exempt from PvP is a bit more than a side effect. From what I read of your other posts, I believe that you agree with me. So, what am I missing? Are you suggesting that these "social tools" are so important that people are willing to sacrifice one of the tenents of the game? How stupid are you. It's already totally possible to be exempt from wardecs. No one has suggested anyone be allowed to be exempt from pvp. Where did you get that from?
Ramses Davaham Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:21:50 - [47] - Quote Dave Day wrote: Well.....kinda. I do accept that wars are part of Eve. A very important part. But i'd like to make a suggestion on behalf of those of who just aren't into pvp. I hope that the reaction of the community will be a considered response and not just the usual "learn to fight" and "can I have your stuff". I've been around since just after launch in 2003. 13 years (without taking a break) and I hope the community will allow me a voice. As I said, not everyone is into pvp. I still have the original game CD box on my shelf, which says I can "be anything I want to be". Well, what I want is to be left in peace to build my stuff and mine my ore with my friends. The current game mechanics simply won't allow that. So what do I want then? Well, i'd like to be excluded from wardecs. Please read on before you hit the flame button: I think it would be a great idea if CCP allowed corps who have no interest in pvp to sign into an opt out clause, which carries penalties for that corp. For instance, they can't build any structures (it's only fair that structures are vulnerable). They can't declare war. They pay additional taxes to buy and sell on the market and additional manufacturing costs. They suffer a mining penalty, perhaps even a general penalty to all aspects of their ships stats. They get lower mission rewards, etc etc. and they are of course as vulnerable as anyone else in low and null sec. In short, they are disadvantaged. They must pay the price of peace. I know....go join an NPC corp then. But as we all know the purpose of a corp is to have that small space in the game shared with you and your buddies. Concord already effectively takes bribes (the wardec fees) to turn a blind eye to aggression. Surely it wouldn't be taking it out of character if it charged "protection money" to those who don't want to fight? If you're into fighting there are plenty of players willing to give you a fight. But I see many people who just want to mine and chat or build and sell things who quickly realise that they just aren't going to be allowed to do that in a casual, peaceful corp. So they play for a month or so and quit. In a time of falling subscriptions I wonder if it would be so harmful for CCP to finally consider those who don't consider their time in Eve to be solely fighting? I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? For someone whose supposedly been around a long time...you're as dumb as a sack of potatoes. The only valid things you listed in your argument are deployment of structures... Nothing prevents you from forming your own fleets to get command boosts of various types and kinds. Taxation wise - you don't loose that much in isk. All I see here is a dribbling moron crying over something that many hundreds if not thousands know how to deal with the issue. If anything you've just made yourself a target by complaining about war decs here. If you can't cope with it...then don't join a corp.
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 19	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:47:08 - [48] - Quote Ramses Davaham wrote: For someone whose supposedly been around a long time...you're as dumb as a sack of potatoes. The only valid things you listed in your argument are deployment of structures... Nothing prevents you from forming your own fleets to get command boosts of various types and kinds. Taxation wise - you don't loose that much in isk. All I see here is a dribbling moron crying over something that many hundreds if not thousands know how to deal with the issue. If anything you've just made yourself a target by complaining about war decs here. If you can't cope with it...then don't join a corp. All I see here is someone who can't even spell "lose" calling out another poster for being "dumb" and a "dribbling moron". Hilarious. I'm sure you can argue your case without resorting to personal insults.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 2639	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:52:27 - [49] - Quote Dave Day wrote: As I said, not everyone is into pvp. I still have the original game CD box on my shelf, which says I can "be anything I want to be". Well, what I want is to be left in peace to build my stuff and mine my ore with my friends. The current game mechanics simply won't allow that. And they never did. 2003 you say? Some people seem have trouble accepting reality. If CCP has kept to their original vision of universe where everyone is vulnerable to everyone else for 13 years, why do you think they will change their minds now and allow you to make yourself invulnerable to the other players? Well, some people are, I guess, just optimists like you and Speak, the Hungarian rapper: Stop The War! Why Do They Gank?
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13842	Posted - 2016.07.23 09:54:08 - [50] - Quote So I see. I see numbers will rise again. In Doomheim. Acompanied by "**** EVE" on the tombstones, as someone said to me in game recently. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12619	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:10:05 - [51] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: So I see. I see numbers will rise again. In Doomheim. Acompanied by "**** EVE" on the tombstones, as someone said to me in game recently. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff, I guess Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 25	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:21:50 - [52] - Quote So many players hate this wardec systems, so many players are forced to dock up for a week to avoid their copr to be permadecced... ...1 week of paid gameplay unable to play... ...only totally stupid game developers can ignore something like that in a subscription based mmo... ...but they seem to ignore it anyway... They are probably overconfident about players attachment to this game.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13842	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:30:16 - [53] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: So I see. I see numbers will rise again. In Doomheim. Acompanied by "**** EVE" on the tombstones, as someone said to me in game recently. Sorting out the wheat from the chaff, I guess I prefer balanced diet, with whole foods. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Ramses Davaham Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 4	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:54:07 - [54] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Ramses Davaham wrote: For someone whose supposedly been around a long time...you're as dumb as a sack of potatoes. The only valid things you listed in your argument are deployment of structures... Nothing prevents you from forming your own fleets to get command boosts of various types and kinds. Taxation wise - you don't loose that much in isk. All I see here is a dribbling moron crying over something that many hundreds if not thousands know how to deal with the issue. If anything you've just made yourself a target by complaining about war decs here. If you can't cope with it...then don't join a corp. All I see here is someone who can't even spell "lose" calling out another poster for being "dumb" and a "dribbling moron". Hilarious. I'm sure you can argue your case without resorting to personal insults. I fail to see where I was wrong regardless...move along troll.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1439	Posted - 2016.07.23 10:58:09 - [55] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: So many players hate this wardec systems, so many players CHOOSE to dock up for a week to avoid their copr to be permadecced... ...1 week of paid gameplay BEING FORCED to play... ...only totally AWESOME game developers can DESIGN something like that in a subscription based mmo... ...AND they seem to UNDERSTAND it anyway... They are probably OPTIMISTIC about players NOT BEING GIGANTIC CRYBABIES. Capitalized the bits i fixed for you, kthxbai. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13845	Posted - 2016.07.23 11:07:25 - [56] - Quote Chopper Rollins wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: So many players hate this wardec systems, so many players CHOOSE to dock up for a week to avoid their copr to be permadecced... ...1 week of paid gameplay BEING FORCED to play... ...only totally AWESOME game developers can DESIGN something like that in a subscription based mmo... ...AND they seem to UNDERSTAND it anyway... They are probably OPTIMISTIC about players NOT BEING GIGANTIC CRYBABIES. Capitalized the bits i fixed for you, kthxbai. It alleviates the difference in the way you think and the victims of wardec system think. You will not come to agreement without CCP help I see, you have never been able to do that. Like a childrens. Maybe its too much unrestrained pathology, even on forums, it comes out for you more and more because there is less prey. People are tired of this ****. I dont blame them. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Hengle Teron Order In Disorder Curatores Veritatis Alliance 60112	Posted - 2016.07.23 11:17:49 - [57] - Quote Here's the solution: You can have undeccable corps, but Everything you mine instantly evaporates from your hold, every ISK you get from rat bounties, instantly evaporates, every isk and LP you get from a mission, instantly evaporates. Then, when your actions will in no way affect your surroundings, you can be "left alone".
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13845	Posted - 2016.07.23 11:25:47 - [58] - Quote Players in NPC corps, they dont ever evaporate. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Dave Day Universal Freelance 127	Posted - 2016.07.23 11:53:31 - [59] - Quote Well....aside from being called as dumb as a sack of potatoes and a dribbling moron by one idiot, this has been quite constructive. How about this? "Economic war"....."invicicorp" as it has been called in this post by someone else is still vulnerable to an "Economic war". The aggressor still pays a fee (less than full scale wardec). When they find stuff being put to market by "invincicorp" they put their own stuff on (same items) at a lower price. As the aggressor sells more than Invincicorp, Invicicorp's broker fees and transaction tax rise, eventually pricing it out of the market. The aggressor would need to do some work, instead of hanging around in Jita waiting for a passing indy to shoot of course.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13847	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:10:02 - [60] - Quote If I would design wardec system I would allow creation of one more kind of player corporations that are essentially today NPC corps in the design together with tax, but they allow for inviting, logo and name player would like to see himself. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Xylem Viliana The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People 368	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:10:40 - [61] - Quote War, War never changes.
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 841	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:11:58 - [62] - Quote Hengle Teron wrote: Here's the solution: You can have undeccable corps, but Everything you mine instantly evaporates from your hold, every ISK you get from rat bounties, instantly evaporates, every isk and LP you get from a mission, instantly evaporates. Then, when your actions will in no way affect your surroundings, you can be "left alone". You do realize that because they are "there" someone will want to kill them and then never leave them alone because they are lil peasant trolls right? The easiest way to troll someone that wants to kill you is to just never let them. You want salt mines? **** someone off and then just never let yourself ever get hit by a single punch.... trust me Ive done it in a real ring. Mohammed Ali style... is that all you got?! Rope-a-dope the dopes. Especially if they think theyre all leet "pvpers". Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Remiel Pollard Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 7662	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:17:53 - [63] - Quote Dave Day wrote: I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? Just one. EVE is a PVP-focused game. The PVE elements are all focused on enabling more PVP. Whether you like it or not, your mining/missioning/marketing is all as much in competition with other players as direct ship-to-ship combat is. So no, hell no. If you wanted to avoid PVP, then your option is don't log in to EVE, because everything you do here is PVP. Seriously, even if you're mining in high sec, you're mining resources away from other players. Sure, it'll respawn, but then there's the time zone factor, and it only respawns once a day. Maybe a corp in your local space gets sick of your ***, mining all the local asteroids, and want to stop you, so they wardec you. It's a very simple example, to be sure, but you take that option away from them by 'opting out' of PVP. This game already has an opt-out anyway. It's called not logging in. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104*
Beta Maoye 120	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:33:58 - [64] - Quote Dave Day wrote: I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? It is unlikely the game will allow complete safety in high sec. Wardec should have consequence for both attacker and defender. Under current mechanic, the consequence of wardec for attacker is trivial. Temporary corp for the purpose of wardec can pay wardec fee and then licensed to kill while being protected by Concord. Wardec initiator should have at least a citadel put up in space so that the defender can attack the aggressor's home base to avenge.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16960	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:36:40 - [65] - Quote Xylem Viliana wrote: War, War never changes. this thread, this thread never changes. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 446	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:38:28 - [66] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Sustrai Aditua wrote: Of course, the sociopaths have rushed to exclaim "something something KILL KILL KILL". However, since the vast majority of gamers would pay real money to play a game where the one eye-browed knuckle-draggers could only diddle with each other...and since a lot of gaming companies who went t!ts up and broke at the clamoring this PvP minority felt they just had to create (just to survive as a group...not all stupid, eh?) it would behoove a company to ignore the sociopathic, yet very loud minority (who largely pay in PLEX) and listen to those who actually use MONEY...in terms of enlightened self-interest and seriously consider the OP's point. But, they won't. This proves my theory that everybody in the world (except me) has lost their minds. Wow such abuse of terms - idiot, sociopath. Words have meaning people and proper usage. Dictionaries are free and online these days. Oh and PLEX=Money to CCP. As has been oft cited in these forums - someone bought that PLEX with hard currency that went to CCP. That person then sold it for iskies in game to the knuckle-dragging, sociopaths. Also there are PLENTY of games where PvP is restricted. Why does this have to be one? Why can't it be different? Work the shaft. (Those words have meaning, too?) If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13850	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:43:41 - [67] - Quote What an irony, there will be no dreams to wreck soon. Only the horrors dreamt by those who stayed. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 841	Posted - 2016.07.23 12:49:46 - [68] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: What an irony, there will be no dreams to wreck soon. Only the horrors dreamt by those who stayed. How many good dreams turn into nightmares before the dawn rises? And in the end all your left with is a pounding heart, sweaty sheets and a fear you cant shake as you get up to go about your day.... Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13850	Posted - 2016.07.23 13:05:00 - [69] - Quote Luckily, I stopped sleeping on gates, so nothing from me. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 2968	Posted - 2016.07.23 13:39:29 - [70] - Quote OP. I must apologize. I sincerely thought you were trolling. I know now that you are absolutely serious. This horrifies me. I was pure carebear for many years. Thanks to the efforts of some very good people I was able to recover. This happened after crimewatch was enacted, so I missed the golden days of PVP. Instead, I found that strangely enough my PVE ways were actually beneficial to not only myself but those who I then worked with. It turned out that my diligent efforts had raised the standings for our corp to the point where there were a few corps that we now were liked by enough for us to establish jump clones with. Now people who joined us could reap this benefit due to the work I had done. It felt kinda cool. Then they patched it out. Now anyone anywhere can jump clone with anyone. That's okay, it's not like I was working specifically towards that or anything. But there it was, that nagging voice in the back of my head, telling me that there were others who had worked their asses off JUST FOR THIS. I had a tiny sad after that, not for me, but for them. Just a tiny one. My other PVE thing was Locator Agents. Once I found out how valuable they were I chased after that standing increase like it was the holy grail. More agents, more potential targets you could try to locate. With a crew you could cover quite a few, especially if you were talking to each other. I worked my ass off to try and get these up. Then in March I believe, they did the whole 'Buddy List' change. All of my watchlisted targets were now invalid. Without knowing whether or not they were online the 500 to a thousand potential targets suddenly turned into the proverbial 'needle in a haystack'. Hell, even running two accounts I could only locate 4 or so per hour that way. With even a conservative estimate of 400 targets, that's a hundred hours to try and check them all for me alone. Locator agent work invalidated. War became impractical on a contract level. You couldn't guarantee any kind of result to an employer unless your target had a structure in space that could be taken down. Merc work devolved into mass deccing and camping trade hubs and pipes. Hunting a target corp became more than a chore. When I explained what actually needed to be done in order to be effective to a non-eve playing coworker, his response was 'that's WAY too much effort for a video game. ' This is true. Back to the point. Because you are actually serious, in spite of all this, I've decided to make the remaining months before my sub runs out very special for the both of us. In the immortal words of Cannibal Kane, 'Hello there, future war target.' Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
May Arethusa The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 184	Posted - 2016.07.23 14:52:36 - [71] - Quote Get out of High-Sec, then you don't have to worry about wardecs. As often.
Dave Day Universal Freelance 128	Posted - 2016.07.23 16:11:53 - [72] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: OP. Because you are actually serious, in spite of all this, I've decided to make the remaining months before my sub runs out very special for the both of us. In the immortal words of Cannibal Kane, 'Hello there, future war target.' Well.....there's a surprise (sigh)
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives 12621	Posted - 2016.07.23 16:25:51 - [73] - Quote 'Everyone Versus Everyone', not 'Everyone Versus Everyone But Me' Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi . Bumble's Space Log
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13854	Posted - 2016.07.23 16:32:23 - [74] - Quote Oh you can always have fun out there. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26372	Posted - 2016.07.23 16:39:41 - [75] - Quote Dave Day wrote: Omar Alharazaad wrote: OP. Because you are actually serious, in spite of all this, I've decided to make the remaining months before my sub runs out very special for the both of us. In the immortal words of Cannibal Kane, 'Hello there, future war target.' Well.....there's a surprise (sigh) Your actions in Eve have consequences, that includes your forum posting. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13854	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:11:18 - [76] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dave Day wrote: Omar Alharazaad wrote: OP. Because you are actually serious, in spite of all this, I've decided to make the remaining months before my sub runs out very special for the both of us. In the immortal words of Cannibal Kane, 'Hello there, future war target.' Well.....there's a surprise (sigh) Your actions in Eve have consequences, that includes your forum posting. It was mentioned at fanfest also. When you are searching for some targets, you can always come here and say to everybody you really dont like the game because of them, that you dont like to be wardecced and you only have one account and no alts and you despise every PvP and everyone who ever shoot at someone. And you are sure they are a fat, autistic neckbeards in real, with cheetos in their keyboards. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Elsia Browne Aliastra Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:27:04 - [77] - Quote Wow, I don't believe anyone even read the OPs post. He doesn't want to eliminate war. He just wants it to be possible to not be forced to play everyone elses game, he wants to play his own. For all those out there that obviously didn't read the OP post. Please....please read it again and pay attention to the fact that he doesn't want to remove war completely from the game. He wants to create a way for players in player corps to basically become part of Interbus. You pay a fee every week or month, to be part of an NPC faction that doesn't participate in FW and can not be wardecced. With this your corp would have a minimum tax rate, not be able to anchor certain structures, plus other penalties. His other idea is an idea that people have been floating now for a while. Which is "Hey if a corp can bribe Concord to look the other way why can't we bribe Concord for protection?". Why is that such a bad idea? seriously it fits into the whole Sandbox mentality. Also before you go and say "well he shouldn't be able to force his style of play onto me!" or "This is a PVP focused game with some PVE etc. etc." I CALL BS! TOTAL F'n BS! Wardecs as we are currently see them is forcing a style of play that obviously a majority of the players don't like which is oh why they are leaving. What this game needs is balance. Not nerfing, not a new style of game play but balance. We as players need to stop telling other players to "quit because this game isn't for you" that's just absurd. Why would you do such a thing as to tell a player to leave a game that you enjoy playing. Let that sink in for a minute, telling a player to leave a game because they had a bad experience is just insane. If you want more players to play your game so you have "more targets" then you want them to stay. I saw a good response on another post the other day. "Join the corp that war decced your corp". That is smart, then they will learn something. Also stop calling this game "PVP focused" I'm sorry its not. If it was NPCs would be selling ships, modules, and ammo. Not players. There would be no need for mining structures, no need for a player driven market, BPOs, BPCs etc. etc. etc. You would basically get a ship and fit it then go out and blow things up. Think if it like a Ship based version of MWO or any other FPS game out there, heck the game would be so close to dark prophecy it wouldn't be funny. But it isn't, EVE is an EVERYTHING BASED game, deal with it. All sorts of players play this game, and as you can see when one style of player is put up above the rest.....guess what happens the rest LEAVE! You want eve to die, all of those that are saying for players to quit are doing an awesome job at achieving their goal. Honestly if I was CCP I'd start temp banning players that told others to leave.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8401	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:35:06 - [78] - Quote Elsia Browne wrote: Wow, I don't believe anyone even read the OPs post. He doesn't want to eliminate war. He just wants it to be possible to not be forced to play everyone elses game, he wants to play his own. He can do that any time he wants by logging on to the Singularity server instead of Tranquility. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13854	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:50:40 - [79] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Elsia Browne wrote: Wow, I don't believe anyone even read the OPs post. He doesn't want to eliminate war. He just wants it to be possible to not be forced to play everyone elses game, he wants to play his own. He can do that any time he wants by logging on to the Singularity server instead of Tranquility. Why? He can just unsub and wait. Chill. It will be no different in some time. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26377	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:52:34 - [80] - Quote Elsia Browne wrote: Wow, I don't believe anyone even read the OPs post. He doesn't want to eliminate war. He just wants it to be possible to not be forced to play everyone elses game, he wants to play his own. For all those out there that obviously didn't read the OP post. Please....please read it again and pay attention to the fact that he doesn't want to remove war completely from the game. He can play his own game, so can everybody else; that's the point people are making. You're right in that he doesn't want to completely remove war from the game, he just wants to remove the possibility of it happening to him; there's good news, he already can, using the existing mechanics. Quote: He wants to create a way for players in player corps to basically become part of Interbus. You pay a fee every week or month, to be part of an NPC faction that doesn't participate in FW and can not be wardecced. With this your corp would have a minimum tax rate, not be able to anchor certain structures, plus other penalties. This is called an NPC corp, it already exists, if he wishes to play with like minded players in other corps he can set up a chatroom in lieu of corp chat. Quote: His other idea is an idea that people have been floating now for a while. Which is "Hey if a corp can bribe Concord to look the other way why can't we bribe Concord for protection?". Because protection is not Concord job, punishment is. Why is that such a bad idea? seriously it fits into the whole Sandbox mentality. Also before you go and say "well he shouldn't be able to force his style of play onto me!" or "This is a PVP focused game with some PVE etc. etc." Quote: Also stop calling this game "PVP focused" I'm sorry its not. If it was NPCs would be selling ships, modules, and ammo. Not players. There would be no need for mining structures, no need for a player driven market, BPOs, BPCs etc. etc. etc. You would basically get a ship and fit it then go out and blow things up. Everything you say here is wrong; a player driven market and economy is the very essence of a PvP focused game where loss has meaning, an NPC driven market is the exact opposite, if you want to see what Eve would look like with an NPC driven market look no further than the test server where 99% of the stuff on the market is preseeded and loss means nothing. Quote: Think if it like a Ship based version of MWO or any other FPS game out there, heck the game would be so close to dark prophecy it wouldn't be funny. But it isn't, EVE is an EVERYTHING BASED game, deal with it. All sorts of players play this game, and as you can see when one style of player is put up above the rest.....guess what happens the rest LEAVE! You want eve to die, all of those that are saying for players to quit are doing an awesome job at achieving their goal. Honestly if I was CCP I'd start temp banning players that told others to leave. Eve had a continual year on year growth for many years, despite the game being much more violent and unforgiving than it is now. If someone leaves because they realise that Eve isn't for them then fair play, it's not designed to appeal to the mass market. What doesn't go down well is the constant bleating from those that would like to turn Eve into something that is more mainstream, they should kindly leave our brutal little corner of the gaming universe alone and play something more mainstream that already caters to them. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Cien Banchiere Extrinsic Arcadia Distribution 82	Posted - 2016.07.23 17:54:49 - [81] - Quote Damn, post above me got to it before I did.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13854	Posted - 2016.07.23 18:09:23 - [82] - Quote And when everybody leaves I will then declare all of the space mine. \o/ I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 273	Posted - 2016.07.23 18:23:48 - [83] - Quote Tao Dolcino wrote: You forget that new players are poor, they couldn't bid. Unless they play the "pay to win" game (buying PLEX with RL money to sell it in game for ISK). What a sense of achievement That's probably what will sell the idea to the EA guy. A signature :o
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26379	Posted - 2016.07.23 18:44:17 - [84] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Tao Dolcino wrote: You forget that new players are poor, they couldn't bid. Unless they play the "pay to win" game (buying PLEX with RL money to sell it in game for ISK). What a sense of achievement That's probably what will sell the idea to the EA guy. There's more than one ex EA employee at CCP IIRC Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Bishop Bob Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 16	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:12:39 - [85] - Quote I think this thread is a reasonable excuse for: RAZOR Alliance Glorious Informational Film #1
000Hunter000 Missiles 'R' Us 80	Posted - 2016.07.23 19:42:06 - [86] - Quote Yes, stop the wars, think of all the poor hamsters! No... Wait... nm...
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4990	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:32:52 - [87] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Tao Dolcino wrote: You forget that new players are poor, they couldn't bid. Unless they play the "pay to win" game (buying PLEX with RL money to sell it in game for ISK). What a sense of achievement That's probably what will sell the idea to the EA guy. There's more than one ex EA employee at CCP IIRC At least 2...probably will be more as number of players logged in continues it's downward trend. Have to figure out a way to monetize those players that are left. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 373	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:48:12 - [88] - Quote It all boils down to who wardecced you. If any of the major mercenary corporations/alliances have wardecced you, honestly...you are safe. Just stay away from trading hubs and shipping choke points and you will do just fine. Friend got wardecced by not one but two major merc alliances and never saw any of them for the whole week, since he operated not anywhere near a choke point or trade hub. Now if you were wardecced by myself in my solo highsec wardec days, then you would be screwed because I would find out where you were and pay you a complimentary visit with my blasters...constantly for the whole week. But rest assured, that type of wardec hunting is pretty much gone due to the changes to the watch list and not fixing locater agents to compensate. So when you are wardecced, this is what you do: 1) Move local chat somewhere so it is not hidden by any other chat channel. 2) Don't AFK anything (mine, mission, rat, etc). If you have to go AFK, dock up...even if it just to go take a leak or get another Mountain Dew. I have popped war targets while they were afk making coffee. 3) If you are docked and you see a war target in local, don't undock. Can guarantee they know where you are and you are being watched... 4) When you see a war target come into system, dock up and stay there. 5) Assume that every neutral in system is one of their alts, looking for you. If you are mining and someone warps into your belt in a Venture, leave that belt...dock up for a couple of minutes and then go back to another belt. Always assume you are being watched... And that concludes your safety lesson in wardec technololgy. Please send any and all 'contributions' to myself. Thank you and have a nice day... This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26393	Posted - 2016.07.23 23:51:15 - [89] - Quote @ Teckos Yeah I know of at least one fairly recent hire that used to work at EA, the position that was filled is Chief Customer Officer. Sean Decker is the other one I know about, according to google he's the Senior VP of Product Development. [tinfoil] Is EA slowly infiltrating CCP in order to assimilate them like so many devs before them? [/tinfoil] Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Decaneos Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 134	Posted - 2016.07.24 00:56:42 - [90] - Quote TO be fair to the game, you pay a bribe to allow concord to turn a blind eye to a war, so why can you not bribe concord to not let it happen?
Sustrai Aditua Intandofisa 451	Posted - 2016.07.24 01:53:30 - [91] - Quote Elsia Browne wrote: I CALL BS! TOTAL F'n BS! Thanks. Another intelligent person stands up to the blizzard of bovine scatology. Noooooo, they're not REALLY saying "Play any way you want as long as it's the way I want." Nuuuuuuuu.... They're being "rational" and "logical" and all that -al stuff! If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
Avaelica Kuershin Paper Cats 269	Posted - 2016.07.24 02:09:34 - [92] - Quote Decaneos wrote: TO be fair to the game, you pay a bribe to allow concord to turn a blind eye to a war, so why can you not bribe concord to not let it happen? While it is an interesting and amusing idea, I don't see it as a good idea as either there would be no wars, or the bid/counterbid game would lead to only one or two entities able to play at war games.
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 20	Posted - 2016.07.24 02:39:50 - [93] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Your actions in Eve have consequences, that includes your forum posting. That is true. Some players see the forums as part of the meta-game. I'm just wondering if it is healthy for forum discussion and fostering a sense of community in general for experienced, well resourced players to be targeting players in-game just because they express a contrary opinion.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 16984	Posted - 2016.07.24 04:04:21 - [94] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Your actions in Eve have consequences, that includes your forum posting. That is true. Some players see the forums as part of the meta-game. I'm just wondering if it is healthy for forum discussion and fostering a sense of community in general for experienced, well resourced players to be targeting players in-game just because they express a contrary opinion. yes, this is eve. when your stated opinion is " one more nerfGäó " to a beleaguered play style you should expect reprisals. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 627	Posted - 2016.07.24 05:23:41 - [95] - Quote Decaneos wrote: TO be fair to the game, you pay a bribe to allow concord to turn a blind eye to a war, so why can you not bribe concord to not let it happen? Because CONCORD only accepts bribes to not do their work. They respond by default. We don't need to pay them more ISK to do what they already do, only to not do it.
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13861	Posted - 2016.07.24 06:14:16 - [96] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Decaneos wrote: TO be fair to the game, you pay a bribe to allow concord to turn a blind eye to a war, so why can you not bribe concord to not let it happen? Because CONCORD only accepts bribes to not do their work. They respond by default. We don't need to pay them more ISK to do what they already do, only to not do it. You seem to forgot that if someone comes to CONCORD and wants wardeck they have to send mail to you, and declare something. Having doors shut for every such client who comes and wants something is actually less work. So bribing them to not do their work would work in this case. Less work for CONCORD. Move to null if you want war then. Actually CCP may be on the tracks there. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4994	Posted - 2016.07.24 09:21:53 - [97] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: I had a silly idea when I read the OP. What if you could pay off concord? [snip] Yes, that is what a war dec is essentially. Somebody has paid CONCORD to look the other way when they come to shoot your stuff. Yes but if you hadnt "snipped" and instead read you wouldve read a funny idea to turn that pay off into both an isk sink and an interesting lil mini game, a psychological game of isk "chicken" between players, corps or alliances..... good thing you dont read much though... It already is an ISK sink. Mini games tend to suck. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2368	Posted - 2016.07.24 09:30:57 - [98] - Quote In my experience, if you're not a schlong and you don't draw attentuon to yourself you're unlikely to be decced if your corp remains small. Of course you won't prevent random decs, but the key to not being redecced is to not be a johnson about it vocally and not lose shiny stuff. Don't give people a reason to redec you, basically. It's only a week, after all. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 28	Posted - 2016.07.24 10:14:11 - [99] - Quote Mortlake wrote: In my experience, if you're not a schlong and you don't draw attentuon to yourself you're unlikely to be decced if your corp remains small. Of course you won't prevent random decs, but the key to not being redecced is to not be a johnson about it vocally and not lose shiny stuff. Don't give people a reason to redec you, basically. It's only a week, after all. lol I would like you to experience a different situation: You have a job and your boss comes to you and says... "I will not pay you a week of your monthly job.....but it's only a week after all !" Same goes for the many players that dock for a week of paid subscription to avoid being blamed if their corps is chain-decced for he lost a ship during wardec....
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1441	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:04:14 - [100] - Quote So you want all the benefits and none of the drawbacks? Ok. Oh, i'm mentally pathological and people who don't want to be subject to wardecs are victims, right? When you call someone flawed because they disagree with you, that's totalitarianism. Announcing you're a victim is utterly meaningless, but very modern. Here's your solution for the pesky wardec problem... i end about half my posts with it... ...wait for it... get out of empire. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2368	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:06:39 - [101] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mortlake wrote: In my experience, if you're not a schlong and you don't draw attentuon to yourself you're unlikely to be decced if your corp remains small. Of course you won't prevent random decs, but the key to not being redecced is to not be a johnson about it vocally and not lose shiny stuff. Don't give people a reason to redec you, basically. It's only a week, after all. You have a job and your boss comes to you and says... Stopped reading there. This is a game. Stop being a victim and adapt. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1441	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:07:41 - [102] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I would like you to experience a different situation: You have a job and your boss comes to you and says... "I will not pay you a week of your monthly job.....but it's only a week after all !" Same goes for the many players that dock for a week of paid subscription to avoid being blamed if their corps is chain-decced for he lost a ship during wardec.... Your approach to this game is all wrong. It's not a job. Wardecs are not some surprise condition that was sprung on anybody. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 28	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:53:44 - [103] - Quote Nah, I'm not a victim and I perfectly know it's a game. I make it more simple then: Persons like to spend their money, they usually don't like to waste them. The wardec how it's now forces them to dock up ( or renounce to the social aspect of the game ), so they feel they waste one week of paid subscription money. I'm a seller in RL, I think it's a basic concept and it's so incredible to me seeing CCP developers being ok with this situation. Really incredible. Obviously hisec wargankers will not agree....
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 376	Posted - 2016.07.24 11:54:42 - [104] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mortlake wrote: In my experience, if you're not a schlong and you don't draw attentuon to yourself you're unlikely to be decced if your corp remains small. Of course you won't prevent random decs, but the key to not being redecced is to not be a johnson about it vocally and not lose shiny stuff. Don't give people a reason to redec you, basically. It's only a week, after all. lol I would like you to experience a different situation: You have a job and your boss comes to you and says... "I will not pay you a week of your monthly job.....but it's only a week after all !" Same goes for the many players that dock for a week of paid subscription to avoid being blamed if their corps is chain-decced for he lost a ship during wardec.... People who lose a ship to a wardec from one of the major merc alliances were not paying attention and do not need further protection, for they deserved to lose said ship. Most ship losses (especially mining barges and exhumers) could be avoided just by watching local and being pre-aligned to the station. While traveling, avoid choke points like Uedama and anywhere within three jumps of a major trade hub. Seriously, it is not that difficult. Wardecs are part of life in New Eden. Instead of whining about it, why don't you spend about 10-20m isk and fit a bunch of cheap T1 frigs and destroyers and go hunt those bastards who wardecced you! If you show these guys your balls and slap them in the face with them, they might think twice about messing with your corp again. You never know, you just might like it...like I did. I will never return to the life of mining and industry. That was soul draining and listless career. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13867	Posted - 2016.07.24 12:18:00 - [105] - Quote I think people who said you can dock up already have PLEXED accounts for a long time, like me. I can dock up for 4 years. If that would be one month left, and subscription running out, and wardeck can be extended to 2 weeks, Industrial character, I would not bother docking, I would not bother playing really. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Mortlake Devils Rejects 666 2371	Posted - 2016.07.24 13:29:33 - [106] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Nah, I'm not a victim and I perfectly know it's a game. I make it more simple then: Persons like to spend their money, they usually don't like to waste them. The wardec how it's now forces them to dock up ( or renounce to the social aspect of the game ), so they feel they waste one week of paid subscription money. I'm a seller in RL, I think it's a basic concept and it's so incredible to me seeing CCP developers being ok with this situation. Really incredible. Obviously hisec wargankers will not agree.... First of all, nobody is interested in what you do IRL. It's your choice to dock up. Nobody is forcing you to. How about... Jump clones? Insta docks and undocks? Scouts? Wormhole traversal? NPC corps? Alt corps? Stabs? Cloaks? Actually growing a pair and fighting back ? Just how many tools do you want to enable you to continue playing? What social aspects are they losing by having to drop corp for a week? None. They still have comms, they can create another channel in game to chat if they don't have comms, they can still mine or mission together in an NPC corp or alt corp of their choice. Most opportunistic decs won't interfere with your installations, meaning you can still leave holding characters in to manage jobs etc. It's been like it for years, wars have been around for years and people like you have been around for years. What I think is so incredible is that despite your ilk being pandered to (and yes, you have) on many occasions it's still not enough. EVE was never meant to be Whimsydale and Bob willing it never will be. You are provided with a myriad of opportunities and tools to make isk in a relatively safe environment and yet that's still not enough. Father to a murdered son. Husband to a murdered wife. Truth be told, I've been pretty unlucky.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 627	Posted - 2016.07.24 13:52:50 - [107] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Decaneos wrote: TO be fair to the game, you pay a bribe to allow concord to turn a blind eye to a war, so why can you not bribe concord to not let it happen? Because CONCORD only accepts bribes to not do their work. They respond by default. We don't need to pay them more ISK to do what they already do, only to not do it. So bribing them to not do their work would work in this case. Less work for CONCORD. Isn't that what I said? I thought so. Nana Skalski wrote: Move to null if you want war then. Wardecs don't apply at all to nullsec. They aren't needed, because there is no CONCORD. Wardecs only apply to highsec. As to me moving to null, just check my killboard (or lossboard) to see where I play. So easy to do before making dumb comments.
Gadget Helmsdottir Gadget's Workshop 237	Posted - 2016.07.24 14:42:18 - [108] - Quote Hmmm... Could a non-deccable corp be in an alliance deccable one? 'Cause Gadget-corp would love to have a transport arm that displays our logo and not some random NPC corp... Y'know... since non-deccable corps would suddenly be full of freighter pilots. --Gadget Work smarter, not harder. --Scrooge McDuck, an eminent old-Earth economist
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13875	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:17:20 - [109] - Quote Presumably non decable corp could be in nondecable alliance. They would just not be wartargets. Other, decable would be. If alliance would have only nondecable corps, the alliance would not be decable. CIVILIANS and Military wings of alliance could be created this way. Of course this would work only in high sec. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Terminal Insanity Pwn 'N Play Spaceship Samurai 941	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:17:42 - [110] - Quote theres pve games for that stuff eve is for pvp. Even when you're ratting, the pvp element is there to provide players with excitement. This is what eve was designed to be. Please stop invading my game and trying to change it into something it isnt. You dont see me playing WOW, demanding that blizzard turn it into permadeath pvp, do you? "War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Nana Skalski Poseidaon 13886	Posted - 2016.07.24 17:32:20 - [111] - Quote Sorry, but this game is changing constantly, and they always wanted more players to stay. And I dont know other way they could appeal to non niche gamer. I give you ( -á° -ƒ-û -í°)/ Boarding bays Gÿá Every part of a game helps to tell a story. =ƒôò
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 28	Posted - 2016.07.24 21:04:01 - [112] - Quote It is often said in these forums that any playstyle is valid. I think, perhaps, this adage is missing one important qualifier. Perhaps it should be that any playstyle is valid that fits within the confines of the games founding principles and mechanics. This seems to be more accurate.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1442	Posted - 2016.07.24 23:06:04 - [113] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: ... I'm a seller in RL, I think it's a basic concept .... I see, then i'll make this plain and country simple. Wardecs do not force docking up , pvp or any kind of behaviour. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Jasmine Deer Perkone Caldari State 21	Posted - 2016.07.24 23:55:53 - [114] - Quote Mortlake wrote: What social aspects are they losing by having to drop corp for a week? None. They still have comms, they can create another channel in game to chat if they don't have comms, they can still mine or mission together in an NPC corp or alt corp of their choice. Most opportunistic decs won't interfere with your installations, meaning you can still leave holding characters in to manage jobs etc. While I agree with this , in practice there is usually some corp membership leakage of players who decide to stay in an npc corp, change corp or drop out altogether. For new corps this can prove quite disruptive. You can say those corps are doomed to fail, poorly led, etc but the point still stands that when a wardec comes along it is rarely without negative impact to the social aspect of corp life for beginner corps.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4996	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:43:30 - [115] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Nah, I'm not a victim and I perfectly know it's a game. I make it more simple then: Persons like to spend their money, they usually don't like to waste them. The wardec how it's now forces them to dock up ( or renounce to the social aspect of the game ), so they feel they waste one week of paid subscription money. I'm a seller in RL, I think it's a basic concept and it's so incredible to me seeing CCP developers being ok with this situation. Really incredible. Obviously hisec wargankers will not agree.... War decs do not force anyone to dock up. That is a choice. You couldn't be more wrong. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4996	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:45:53 - [116] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: I think people who said you can dock up already have PLEXED accounts for a long time, like me. I can dock up for 4 years. If that would be one month left, and subscription running out, and wardeck can be extended to 2 weeks, Industrial character, I would not bother docking, I would not bother playing really. I'm sorry, but what? It isn't a question of whether or not I can afford to dock up for a period of time, but do I want to not play the game or play the game. You...you dock up. Because you do not want to play Eve Online....at least not how the developers created it. I on the other hand do, and have no issues dealing with a war dec. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4997	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:48:01 - [117] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Mortlake wrote: What social aspects are they losing by having to drop corp for a week? None. They still have comms, they can create another channel in game to chat if they don't have comms, they can still mine or mission together in an NPC corp or alt corp of their choice. Most opportunistic decs won't interfere with your installations, meaning you can still leave holding characters in to manage jobs etc. While I agree with this , in practice there is usually some corp membership leakage of players who decide to stay in an npc corp, change corp or drop out altogether. For new corps this can prove quite disruptive. You can say those corps are doomed to fail, poorly led, etc but the point still stands that when a wardec comes along it is rarely without negative impact to the social aspect of corp life for beginner corps. So? If the players were that weak kneed to begin with, then maybe staying in an NPC corp is what they should have done to begin with. There is a perfectly valid mechanic for avoiding any and all war decs: NPC corps. Does it put constraints on players? Sure. But holy Hell...stop wanting everything handed to you on a platter. This is not a game where the developers hold your hands and pat your poo-poo when things get a little bit rough. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 4997	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:50:06 - [118] - Quote Nana Skalski wrote: Sorry, but this game is changing constantly, and they always wanted more players to stay. And I dont know other way they could appeal to non niche gamer. Explain number of players logged on from 2005-2010 when it was growing and war decs were cheaper and ganking was easier (i.e. you got insurance AND the loot)? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 29	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:54:45 - [119] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Nana Skalski wrote: Sorry, but this game is changing constantly, and they always wanted more players to stay. And I dont know other way they could appeal to non niche gamer. Explain number of players logged on from 2005-2010 when it was growing and war decs were cheaper and ganking was easier (i.e. you got insurance AND the loot)? I think I figured it out. This all stems from those damn participation medals and ribbons they started giving out to the younger generation. Everyone is a winner these days and there are no losers. That age group is now starting to play online games and bring those same expectations with them
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17013	Posted - 2016.07.25 01:57:21 - [120] - Quote Jasmine Deer wrote: Mortlake wrote: What social aspects are they losing by having to drop corp for a week? None. They still have comms, they can create another channel in game to chat if they don't have comms, they can still mine or mission together in an NPC corp or alt corp of their choice. Most opportunistic decs won't interfere with your installations, meaning you can still leave holding characters in to manage jobs etc. While I agree with this , in practice there is usually some corp membership leakage of players who decide to stay in an npc corp, change corp or drop out altogether. For new corps this can prove quite disruptive. You can say those corps are doomed to fail, poorly led, etc but the point still stands that when a wardec comes along it is rarely without negative impact to the social aspect of corp life for beginner corps. and ... its perfectly legitimate gameplay to grind a corp to a messy pulp for making a "de jue claim" on the wrong system , or mouthing off to the wrong people because they are a corp, who gives a **** if their feelings get hurt , they said they were ready for it when they formed up, had every available opportunity to fold and reform or just plain leave the war at no cost to themselves whatsoever. to quote brokk "Training wheels got to come off some time" , forming a corp is exactly that. Better the Devil you know. =]\|[=
Morgan Agrivar Peace.Keepers 376	Posted - 2016.07.25 02:12:53 - [121] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Jasmine Deer wrote: Mortlake wrote: What social aspects are they losing by having to drop corp for a week? None. They still have comms, they can create another channel in game to chat if they don't have comms, they can still mine or mission together in an NPC corp or alt corp of their choice. Most opportunistic decs won't interfere with your installations, meaning you can still leave holding characters in to manage jobs etc. While I agree with this , in practice there is usually some corp membership leakage of players who decide to stay in an npc corp, change corp or drop out altogether. For new corps this can prove quite disruptive. You can say those corps are doomed to fail, poorly led, etc but the point still stands that when a wardec comes along it is rarely without negative impact to the social aspect of corp life for beginner corps. and ... its perfectly legitimate gameplay to grind a corp to a messy pulp for making a "de jue claim" on the wrong system , or mouthing off to the wrong people because they are a corp, who gives a **** if their feelings get hurt , they said they were ready for it when they formed up, had every available opportunity to fold and reform or just plain leave the war at no cost to themselves whatsoever. to quote brokk "Training wheels got to come off some time" , forming a corp is exactly that. Ralph...telling it like it is since whenever the hell he started. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Gavascon need more power inc. Murder By Numbers Alliance 14	Posted - 2016.07.25 12:53:30 - [122] - Quote this topic has been regurgitated so many times..... i'll try to keep this short. 1) players are attempting to seek fairness in an environment which is unfair. but, real life isn't fair (never was and never will be). i'm glad eve mirrors the "real life" concept. all of you, put your hands around that - eve isn't fair. never was and never should be. 2) some of you should watch some tv. such as: star trek, star trek generations, babylon 5, stargate sg-1, farscape and a whole host of others. in all of those shows, war/confilct abound. the shows depict space as unsafe. why shouldn't eve be the same? 3) safe mining? please think about what you do the next time a few computer generated pirates appear. oh, launch drones and defend yourself. 4) eve: missions/ded complexes/incursions.....you're learning pvp. 5) your corp gets war dec'd......all of you are supposed to be banded together for a common cause/goal. in theory, you're supposed to stand up for yourselves. those that leave weren't there for the same reason as everyone else. as such, the war does what the CEO should have done.....trim the "fat". it's time all of you embraced the game for what it is, as opposed to they way you want it to be.
Dave Day Universal Freelance 130	Posted - 2016.07.28 12:21:27 - [123] - Quote Gavascon wrote: it's time all of you embraced the game for what it is, as opposed to they way you want it to be. Or alternatively, leave by the thousand, as is happening. "The game" is one thing....CCP's profit margins are another. When they have lost enough subs and introduced all the "pay to win" aspects that they can think of then all you'll have left is pvp er's in max skilled accounts with maxed out ships cancelling each other out. Wardecs will then be won by those with the deepest real life pockets, the miners and industrialists having long ago gotten fed up with being shot in the face and quit. CCP cares about the game because the game makes them a profit, but don't be deluded about which one they will prioritise when the player subs no longer cover their costs. Sounds great....(sigh)
Rapala Armiron Arton Yachting and Angling Club Domain Research and Mining Inst. 21	Posted - 2016.07.28 13:20:44 - [124] - Quote Dave Day wrote: Gavascon wrote: it's time all of you embraced the game for what it is, as opposed to they way you want it to be. Or alternatively, leave by the thousand, as is happening. "The game" is one thing....CCP's profit margins are another. When they have lost enough subs and introduced all the "pay to win" aspects that they can think of then all you'll have left is pvp er's in max skilled accounts with maxed out ships cancelling each other out. Wardecs will then be won by those with the deepest real life pockets, the miners and industrialists having long ago gotten fed up with being shot in the face and quit. CCP cares about the game because the game makes them a profit, but don't be deluded about which one they will prioritise when the player subs no longer cover their costs. Sounds great....(sigh) Honestly. The game was doing well with continually rising subs when CCP catered to the hardcore player. As soon as ccp started swinging the nerf bat this way and that at emergent play styles is when the train started going off the rails.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 257	Posted - 2016.07.28 13:45:11 - [125] - Quote OP I applaud your reasonable approach and suggestion to fix your problem. But...no. You should be safe nowhere in eve. That is how eve is designed. If we start making exceptions to the rule and making some places almost completely safe, it will ruin the game. You have options. And the best option for you given current game mechanics and the fact that its highly unlikely those mechanics are going to change is to embrace current game mechanics. Your biggest problem is you are trying to "live it up" in high sec. Which is literally the worst place in eve to live. You have to deal with wardeccers and gankers and so many neutrals you do not know who is going to gank you. You dont know if your war targets are going to hang out in hubs and wait for you to show up or if they are going to actually try to find you.... what a crappy way to live an eve life. But fear not! You have options. Move to null, mine in relative peace and profit! You will get better profits and be able to spend more time doing the stuff you want. Ill use my alliance as an example: - We are a null pvp oriented alliance that owns our own space. - We live in a relatively quiet area because we keep it that way. - We dont care about wardecs because deccers wont dare step foot in null where they have to fight people that pvp all the time. - We have good intel.Giving you warning 99% of the time that an enemy is getting close. - We get a few small roams throughout the day. They come and go. 10-15 minutes is usually all you have to dock up for. - Our pvpers actively defend the space. We dont sit in the dock while people kill us and burn our stuff to the ground. We are more like" ohhh! targets we dont have to hunt for!" -We dont force our members to pvp( though some corps are more strict about it than others but as an alliance its not forced) - Our bears can either help defend or they can just wait in the dock till the coast is clear. If we are deployed and its more than a roam. the pvpers will come back to defend. - Everyone contributes to the alliance, the difference is you have many ways to contribute. Bears are still expected to contribute but they contribute by stocking the market, building doctrine stuff, ammo, drones, charges, capitals, citadels, whatever. Mining Ice for the caps. bears fuel jump bridges poses citadels,provide alliance logistics, find wormhole chains( if exploring is your thing) etc. THIS is how they contribute to the alliance. - we have buyback for ices and ores and such though i dont know a lot about the indy side just what i read in the alliance forum. In return you get a relatively safe place to mine and do indy all day. No guessing if someone is going to pop up and shoot you. People in the area are either friendly or they are going to try to kill you. its very black and white. So the answer to your problem already exist, (good) null alliances will provide the security you are looking for while you contribute to the alliance with your industrial expertise. And as a bonus the profits are much higher even if you have to dock up for 10-15min a few times a day.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 13:51:42 - [126] - Quote I can tell you what is the main problem in my opinion. Several ( not to say a huge amount ) of hisec mining / industrial corps are made of mature ( middle age ) players that simply relax and play to socialize with others, play with market, create goods to sell, things like that. They don't do and they don't like pvp much, they have some pvpers in the corp but a little amount. They are sometimes target of Wardeccing pvpers corps for several reasons I don't want to explain. Wardecs have a duration of one week and can be prolonged ( usually are prolonged if the "target" is profitable ) For that reason members of that corps often suggest corpmates to stay docked or to limit themself on movements and so on during wardecs, afraid wardec to be prolonged if they lose many ships. Because one week is a long time, and it's 1/4 of a monthly subscription, mature players are annoyed by it because if they leave company they have some disadvantages on their "social" activity and social activity is the main reason that keep them playing eve. So, some of them they are annoyed but they stay docked and they use Eve as a chat only some others think that chatting only without even the basic ( and lowly lucrative ) activity of mining / hauling is a waste of money, because 1 weeks is 1/4 or subscription. So they resist some time and after some time they get bored of wardecs and quit game.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8449	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:08:58 - [127] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mature player stuff EVE is a PVP game. Period. Full Stop. This is not a game for those who do not like or want to PVP. You do not even have to leave your station to compete (PVP) against other players. Players also don't have to dock up for a week or more when war decced. They have options such as fighting, hiring mercs, or gasp moving someplace else. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:23:07 - [128] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mature player stuff EVE is a PVP game. Period. Full Stop. This is not a game for those who do not like or want to PVP. You do not even have to leave your station to compete (PVP) against other players. Players also don't have to dock up for a week or more when war decced. They have options such as fighting, hiring mercs, or gasp moving someplace else. Maybe you're right. I would suggest CCP to make Wardecs permanent, or to delete hisec completely (or maybe leaving it as a hisec only for NPC corporations). They could try it and take the responsability to make the game a full pvp game. I think that kind of "halfway" situation is so annoying for "social" players and for pvpers also, a "take of responsability" from CCP would put an end to this situation in my opinion. But they need to be brave to do something so radical....
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8451	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:30:23 - [129] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mature player stuff EVE is a PVP game. Period. Full Stop. This is not a game for those who do not like or want to PVP. You do not even have to leave your station to compete (PVP) against other players. Players also don't have to dock up for a week or more when war decced. They have options such as fighting, hiring mercs, or gasp moving someplace else. Maybe you're right. I would suggest CCP to make Wardecs permanent, or to delete hisec completely (or maybe leaving it as a hisec only for NPC corporations). They could try it and take the responsability to make the game a full pvp game. I think that kind of "halfway" situation is so annoying for "social" players and for pvpers also, a "take of responsability" from CCP would put an end to this situation in my opinion. But they need to be brave to do something so radical.... You obviously don't want to play this game, and are expecting CCP to cater to your specific play-style. Please take your "ideas" to the proper forum area where such input is solicited, or better yet, to another game where competition and loss are meaningless. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:32:44 - [130] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mature player stuff EVE is a PVP game. Period. Full Stop. This is not a game for those who do not like or want to PVP. You do not even have to leave your station to compete (PVP) against other players. Players also don't have to dock up for a week or more when war decced. They have options such as fighting, hiring mercs, or gasp moving someplace else. Maybe you're right. I would suggest CCP to make Wardecs permanent, or to delete hisec completely (or maybe leaving it as a hisec only for NPC corporations). They could try it and take the responsability to make the game a full pvp game. I think that kind of "halfway" situation is so annoying for "social" players and for pvpers also, a "take of responsability" from CCP would put an end to this situation in my opinion. But they need to be brave to do something so radical.... You obviously don't want to play this game, and are expecting CCP to cater to your specific play-style. Please take your "ideas" to the proper forum area where such input is solicited, or better yet, to another game where competition and loss are meaningless. It sounds quite amazing to me that you firmly say this is a pvp game and if I suggest to make it a pvp game you answer like that! I don't see any logic but it's only a forum post so not a problem at all for me....
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8451	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:40:06 - [131] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Lucy Lollipops wrote: Mature player stuff EVE is a PVP game. Period. Full Stop. This is not a game for those who do not like or want to PVP. You do not even have to leave your station to compete (PVP) against other players. Players also don't have to dock up for a week or more when war decced. They have options such as fighting, hiring mercs, or gasp moving someplace else. Maybe you're right. I would suggest CCP to make Wardecs permanent, or to delete hisec completely (or maybe leaving it as a hisec only for NPC corporations). They could try it and take the responsability to make the game a full pvp game. I think that kind of "halfway" situation is so annoying for "social" players and for pvpers also, a "take of responsability" from CCP would put an end to this situation in my opinion. But they need to be brave to do something so radical.... You obviously don't want to play this game, and are expecting CCP to cater to your specific play-style. Please take your "ideas" to the proper forum area where such input is solicited, or better yet, to another game where competition and loss are meaningless. It sounds quite amazing to me that you firmly say this is a pvp game and if I suggest to make it a pvp game you answer like that! I don't see any logic but it's only a forum post so not a problem at all for me.... EVE is already a PVP game, everywhere, all the time, 23.5/7/365. What you are "suggesting" is that CCP fundamentally change the game because it does not meet your limited definition of PVP. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:43:17 - [132] - Quote Oh, ok. You don't like my suggestion because you deem I have a "limited definition of pvp" Clear now, thanks for the explanation.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 257	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:50:37 - [133] - Quote Quote: Many pvpers here think that this is a game for pvpers only, they don't care if the "social" players I talked about leave the game because they think Eve is nt the game for them. Eve is a pvp game. It depends heavily on losing ships and modules to keep the economy balanced and the game functioning. The misconception is that pvpers will not or do not pve and thus without bears the game will die. Thats not the case. The bears make everything cheaper because of competition between them and they maximize efficiency. If there were no true bears in the game, the economy would still function because pvpers still do pve( most of them) and they would just do it to more of a degree than before. I can build 200k units of ammo while still pew pewing. I can still research blueprints, mine goo etc. since i dont pew pew my entire time in game i have time to engage in pve activities. Furthermore a majority of bears embrace this is a pvp game. And some actually love it. Doing pve in basically a battlefield excites them. I know many pvers that are perfectly happy doing their thing while trying to avoid being killed. In fact a majority of the pvers ive met are like this. Only a very small portion of pvers make a big deal out of "no safe place" in eve. They just appear to be larger in numbers because they are the ones that always complain. Its like when you read a review on something , a much higher percentage of people will complain about something than people who are satisfied. You might have 500 people that are happy with something and 40 that arent But 35 of those 40 will write a review and complain about it while maybe only 20 of the 500 who are happy with it will bother. The few people that complain about gankers and wardecs, etc are in the minority. Such activities either do not apply to everyone else because they got out of the kiddie pool( IE high sec) and started swimming in the big boy pool( ie null/low/wspace) or they simply know how to skirt gankers and deccers so it doesnt affect their gameplay.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8451	Posted - 2016.07.28 14:54:59 - [134] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: Oh, ok. You don't like my suggestion because you deem I have a "limited definition of pvp" Clear now, thanks for the explanation. When you demonstrate that you believe PVP is exclusive to war and combat, you meet the criteria for possessing a limited definition of PVP. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1154	Posted - 2016.07.28 15:47:35 - [135] - Quote People do realize that there are ample ways to work around a war dec?
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 42	Posted - 2016.07.28 15:49:44 - [136] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia wrote: People do realize that there are ample ways to work around a war dec? I'm gonna have to say.......... no. Well, not THESE people anyway.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 494	Posted - 2016.07.28 15:50:31 - [137] - Quote Doc Fury is correct. EVE is all PVP in every aspect of the game. That does not have any impact on the 'social' aspects of the game though. You can play this game solo and be good at it. Players using the term "PVE" either do so out of an understanding that it is EVE PVE (not the same as other MMO's PVE) or incorrectly using it as it pertains to other MMO's PVE, which doesn't exist, so it's used in error. Officially, there is no PVE in EVE. You are competing for EVERYTHING in this game. You can choose to ignore other players activities and their impact on your productivity (say a miner that leaves other miners alone and chooses to let them take the same resources you are mining for, or a Combat Site runner that ignores other Combat Site runners that are draining your systems of those sites and taking away ISK that could be yours) but that is a CHOICE, not PVE. You can easily flip it to PVP, lay claim to systems and defend them, even in HiSec. This is why War Dec/gank mechanics still exist, to austensibly allow for ship to ship PVP to still exist in Concord protected locations like Hi/Lo Sec. The only thing that comes close to true other MMO PVE is mission running. The only drawback to that is that you can be sent on missions in dangerous PVP space so that kind of takes it out of true PVE. So, be very careful tossing the term PVE around. Always remember that as other MMO's use the term, it doesn't exist in EVE. However, in EVE, when you are primarily fighting computer based targets, is how the term "PVE" is used. No place is safe for ship to ship PVP other than dock. In dock, your ISK/resources aren't safe if you do market based activities. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 494	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:13:27 - [138] - Quote Now, having said all that stuff about PVP in the game (I'm breaking this out as a different post) you can play the game solo and with a PVE play style by choice. This irks the living crap out of some other players and their play styles so they actively look for, fight, and campaign against that play style choice. These are the players that love HiSec gank mechanics, many/most War Dec Corps, etc. They feel the game is supposed to be all ship to ship PVP all the time. It's how they get their jollies. If you choose to have an EVE PVE play style, then you must accept this risk as the cost of doing business and move on. Your best weapon is to IGNORE the 'I want to ruin your game' play stylers out there and just plan for them to pop up on occasion and take the steam out of your roll for a moment or two. If you really need to relate this back to other MMO's, call them a high level 'wandering world class monster' that obliterates you and your mission, you res and move on with your game. Here's the reality check: Some CCP devs don't even like that PVE solo play style, the game isn't really designed to support it, however, it's a large chunk of the populace. Even in NullSec and some LoSec corps, these players have happily nested and put up with the occasional perturbances to their play style. Players call players of this play style (usually in HiSec) Carebears due to their lack of combativeness. They do exist in all Security areas of the game though. My personal opinion is that all play styles are valid. It's a sandbox, thus playing your game your way is 'by definition'... allowed. So my only complaint is that people come here to the forums, to Reddit or Twitter and keep trying to voice some change to the game in the form of a whine or complaint, and it bothers me. If all play styles are valid, it's okay to note some kind of problem with a mechanic or balance issue, but not okay to whine or complain that the game is hard. It's supposed to be hard. If you want easy, there are bunches of other MMO's out there for you. It's you against the entire freaking universe in this game, that means it's your game to play your way but you have to own it. Go pound out your game, your way. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Lucy Lollipops State War Academy Caldari State 60	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:15:13 - [139] - Quote I think on the long run Wardecs as they are now, ganking as it is now and maybe other factors will slowly make the players you thing there are not suitable for a pvp game like Eve abandon the game and look for something else. So I suppose you should be very happy for it, only true (not limited) pvp lovers will be here playing. I have a different vision and would be happy to have also another kind of players but it's only my personal point of view.
Roenok Baalnorn Sadistically Sinister 258	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:15:37 - [140] - Quote Quote: The only thing that comes close to true other MMO PVE is mission running. The only drawback to that is that you can be sent on missions in dangerous PVP space so that kind of takes it out of true PVE. thats not even really true because you are still interacting with baiters, loot thieves, and salvage thieves and you still hve to deal with potential deccers and gankers. The only truly pve aspect of this game is the project discovery in which you are not competing at all with other players and other players can, in no way, affect you doing that activity.
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 1155	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:33:33 - [141] - Quote Lucy Lollipops wrote: I think on the long run Wardecs as they are now, ganking as it is now and maybe other factors will slowly make the players you thing there are not suitable for a pvp game like Eve abandon the game and look for something else. So I suppose you should be very happy for it, only true (not limited) pvp lovers will be here playing. I have a different vision and would be happy to have also another kind of players but it's only my personal point of view. And yet the game is over 10 years old and still going. People like the added challenge the nature of eve brings to the game. Plus, it allows for some truly unique events that do not occur in other games. For example, at some points large groups attempted to stage a gank based interdiction of Jita. Any hauler going into it out of Jita was targeted for destruction. Granted, the interdiction was heavily announced, so many people were prepared. But even this preparation took many forms. Some used the war dec mechanic to declare war on the gankers to try and get easy kills. Others stock Jita and surrounding systems with the ships and modules used in a typical ganking ship in the hopes of making a profit. Others tried to setup regional trade hubs for more profit and some made more of the haulers that were destroyed believing that would be purchased as a replacement for lost ships. That is part of what makes EVE unique. There are few other games where such unique gameplay exists. It creates entire new playstylies that people can experience. It's why many come here and many stay. So while some may not like this aspect, it is the very core that draws so many others to say this is the game for me and join in the fun.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 494	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:35:00 - [142] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: thats not even really true because you are still interacting with baiters, loot thieves, and salvage thieves and you still hve to deal with potential deccers and gankers. Not really. Once you know the tricks, they are easy to avoid. Sure, they're a challenge for the newbies but its easy to learn to spot the traps so you don't fall for them. As for the loot/salvage ninjas, they don't really hurt the bottom line much and they are pretty rare. They're just the guy that grabs the coin on the sidewalk before you and gives you a raspberry. You chuckle and move on. Decs and Ganking will always exist in HiSec, but you just change your behavior slightly and it's a non-issue. Thus my comments. Roenok Baalnorn wrote: The only truly pve aspect of this game is the project discovery in which you are not competing at all with other players and other players can, in no way, affect you doing that activity. I wasn't really counting that mini-game which I think of as an on-going charity event. So yes, I agree, the only competition there is bragging rights. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Vic Jefferson Stimulus Rote Kapelle 1056	Posted - 2016.07.28 16:55:19 - [143] - Quote Roenok Baalnorn wrote: The only truly pve aspect of this game is the project discovery in which you are not competing at all with other players and other players can, in no way, affect you doing that activity. Incorrect. You are in direct competition with other players when you do Project Discovery, as there is not an infinite market for the rewards which you earn. There's nothing wrong with danger in Hi Sec - danger and risk is literally the only thing that makes anything you do in EvE valuable or exciting. If anything Hi Sec is far too safe given how rewarding it is, virtually zero risk, and some of the most rewarding PvE in the game, by far. That being said, this also makes WarDecs one of the most hilariously broken violations of Risk ~ Reward in the game. Hi Sec incursions offer some of the most lucrative PvE in the game, at effectively zero risk to the player. Hi Sec Wardecs offer some of the most lucrative kill mails in the game, at effectively zero risk to the wardeccer. The logical conclusion is that you should be in a player corp if you want to earn CONCORD rewards from incursions, but at the same time actually make wardecs meaningful, where there is some risk to actually declaring war, thus there would be -player- enforcement of risk and reward. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
roberts dragon The Scope Gallente Federation 19	Posted - 2016.08.03 07:52:53 - [144] - Quote I would say the when I played runescape when you made law runes you there was gankers pk just waiting to kill you it was a easy kill it got so bad in the end jagex changed it and most of the gankers left the game wads left , so jagex did loose wads of cash but 100 million accounts later game is still going . the day they change the game for more safe pve in certain areas no ganking then half the players might leave the game so its a massive risk for ccp to much revenue loss could close them down . example if they lowered the price of plex then players would not be able to sell it on ebay then more revenue for ccp . so if you want a game model with safe areas you need to find better ways to get the pvp players onboard or it wont happen anytime soon . would also say long term future the game will have to move on after a while players move on many reasons so in time they will have to plan ahead with a formula to suit all this can be done like with some of the suggestions you have made . I haven't done no pvp in eve yet but are active alpha tester in total war arena and total war series also in world of warships so I do a bit of everything missing me mate hopes he come back .
Igor Kozar Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2016.08.04 13:43:12 - [145] - Quote Mr. Day, whilst I can see what you want is for the cluster to be free of violence of any sort in hisec, do you not or did you not when you checked the box that you agreed to the Terms of Service? It tell you there that you accepted the consequences of being podded once you undock right? As others have already stated and I too will tell you in a nice way of course, that you'll have to accept the fact that you are a target irregardless. Your points however and in pretty much all of it I disagree with. Eve is a cold harsh reality, a sandbox. You can as others said already be/done anything you want to be/do.
Graabeerd Khagah MoonFyre BattleGroup.Ru 166	Posted - 2016.08.04 19:39:54 - [146] - Quote Pilot Day, in a fair and unbias way there's has been in recent times from other new players such as you come to the forums and bring up this subject. Not so much as it had been, but the fact of the matter is that Eve is a sandbox. We have control over every facet you can think of to certain limits if I'm correct. There is risks, and there is rewards. No matter what path you choose or I chose to be a pirate, we both have our own destiny. We can make our legacy have far reaching impact within the cluster. Being wardecced is not fun I agree, but it is a way of life for those of us who choose to wardec a corp. alliance, or even a coalition. I agree it does put a dent into your playtime and I symphathize with you, but I am not discouraged. If I undock and loose a ship, so what I can always reship and go again, provided of course if the undock is clear or not. I hope you will sit back and take into account that you signed up to play, but you also need to realize the mantra of "Risk and Reward". Do I take risks to undock? yes very much so, do I get rewarded, very much so. Can I sit back at the end of my playtime and feel good about what I did, very much so. Even if I get podded, I don't even worry about the losses I just go on my merry way to another session knowing I can do something that I enjoy and feel good in the end.
Inxentas Ultramar Ultramar Independent Contracting 1731	Posted - 2016.08.10 10:30:08 - [147] - Quote These threads make me wonder whether the people that don't want to get wardecced are aware of player Channels. Those work fine for the corps that want to play together, but don't want to form an alliance. Just stay in an NPC corp so you don't get corporate advantages and can't get wardecced. You either accept both those things or none at all. You can't have the advantages of something without accepting it's downsides. Use a Channel to socially group people, use Corporations to group them mechanically and elevate them to corporate warfare levels. It's that simple.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 730	Posted - 2016.08.10 10:44:13 - [148] - Quote Inxentas Ultramar wrote: These threads make me wonder whether the people that don't want to get wardecced are aware of player Channels. Effort and responsibility....mostly responsibility. If I'm going to expend effort, it's going to be to whinge about how I don't want to take responsibility. CCP should do it for me. I pay, therefore I'm entitled.
Dwai Attic Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore 17	Posted - 2016.08.10 10:56:28 - [149] - Quote I hope CCP will remove highsec one day. Sure, there would be shortages of everything, but maybe that would be cool. You simply wouldn't have access to all the ships in Eve. As long as there'd be something to shoot people with, I'd be happy.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 385	Posted - 2016.08.10 13:51:04 - [150] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Inxentas Ultramar wrote: These threads make me wonder whether the people that don't want to get wardecced are aware of player Channels. Effort and responsibility....mostly responsibility. If I'm going to expend effort, it's going to be to whinge about how I don't want to take responsibility. CCP should do it for me. I pay, therefore I'm entitled. Mostly this. Wardecced some corps, just to try it out as well as ease my newbie corpmates into PvP. The amount of stuff I have been called during those two weeks was incredible. It is not all highsec players that feel this way, but the ones I wardecced felt they were entitled to safety and we were being assholes for disrupting that peace. As I explained to the CEOs of those corps, if you can't defend your corp and you tell your corpmates to stay docked and logged for the duration of a wardec, then you probably shouldn't create that corp in the first place. The worst thing is, that those CEOs are recruiting total newbies and then just leave them out to dry when conflict arrives. They don't give a damn about their corpmates. While I didn't get in contact with all the newbies, I did persuade one to leave the corp and seek out a better corp or look into EvE Uni. Damn, I hate those CEOs that just recruit newbies and tell them to go mine, while they just stay docked in some citadel and do jack **** themselves. CEOs like those, are the reason why new players leave the game. I persuaded 3 of my IRL friends to finally join me in EvE. Feeding them skill injects and blow up/getting blown up in lowsec and WHs, seems to be a great strategy to keep people playing EvE so far compared to leaving them alone mining in highsec.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26572	Posted - 2016.08.10 16:59:45 - [151] - Quote Maekchu wrote: I hate those CEOs that just recruit newbies and tell them to go mine, while they just stay docked in some citadel and do jack **** themselves. CEOs like those, are the reason why new players leave the game. Meh, some of them treat newbies like indentured servants, and have the cheek to call others griefers. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Arkady Romanov Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation 646	Posted - 2016.08.12 01:36:50 - [152] - Quote It is commonly known that the player count has decreased over the last couple of years, and almost certainly a multitude of reasons why. Opinions on why are like noses, everyone has got one. The game is old; it just doesn't appeal to people anymore The industry is moving away from monthly subscription MMOs People play games on tablets and mobile phones nowadays. The actual number of players was masked by large volumes of multi-boxers which were culled when input broadcasting was banned Multiple character training made multiple accounts less desirable Gankers are ruining everything and chasing new players away Scammers are ruining everything and chasing new players away Change X or Change Y by CCP chased players away Goons ruined everything and chased people away To be honest it could be any of these things, all of these things, or none of them. We don't really know. My personal theory, and I stress that it is purely speculation, is that consistent decreases to the level of risk within the game in an attempt to keep the more vocal, conservative elements of the playerbase engaged resulted in the decline. I think most will agree that over the years changes have been made that have made the game safer for people. Naturally, not all changes are equal, and not all changes have resulted in more safety, but on balance, the game is now safer. Crimewatch changes, EHP buffs to ships that aren't traditionally designed for combat, faster CONCORD response times and larger consequences, rulings removing player discovered combat strategies such as Hyperdunking, bumping changes, watchlist changes, the implementation of jump fatigue, giving freighters low slot options, corporation "safety switches" that prevent awoxing, and so on. I'll not argue about the validity of the changes. CCP implemented them, therefore CCP has decided that they were necessary or worthwhile for whatever reason they feel like. The consequence of many of these changes is that it is more difficult for players to interact with each other in space, especially on an involuntary basis than it was previously. In all parts of space, you're at less risk of involuntary interference from players now than at any other time in the game's history (except possibly very early on in the game where the actual number of players was so low you just didn't SEE people at all if you went out far enough, and perhaps pre jump drive era). Players adapted to these changes of course (see CODE. as a reasonable example), but it did leave SOME play styles for dead or greatly reduced. So during the period of these changes, we also see a decline in the number of users active in the game. There is a correlation, certainly, but I'm certainly not going to claim that is the same as causation. If I had the power(tm) I'd engage in a little experiment though. I'd roll back some of the deliberate or incidental changes that resulted in a safer EVE, or even better, try and introduce new rewards and risks to the game, and see if those changes resulted in more or less players. CCP's current strategy has been pretty consistent over the last few years, but doesn't seem to have improved player numbers. If EVE is on the decline for other reasons, then what difference would it really make? If it turns out that the correlation IS causation, then maybe EVE could experience a (very bloody) renaissance. Just a thought. Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2016.08.12 02:05:48 - [153] - Quote Cory Za wrote: With respect OMG Quote: As I said, not everyone is into pvp. I still have the original game CD box on my shelf, which says I can "be anything I want to be". Well, what I want is to be left in peace to build my stuff and mine my ore with my friends. The current game mechanics simply won't allow that. I totally get that, I do, but your being a bit selfish in forcing everyone who plays to play your way. Re read what the box says. YOU CAN BE ANYTHING. ( bad guy or s miner.) What game did you think you were playing. - this is not runescape. ~snip~. A bit selfish yourself don't you think? Same can be said for PVPers who force PVP on the people who prefer not to PVP. Especially when a veteran preys on a brand new player just learning where the undock button is located, let alone know how to fit a proper pvp ship.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1467	Posted - 2016.08.12 02:07:03 - [154] - Quote It's ten years on and everybody huddled in hisec. Don't talk to me about your null pvp final boss main that has a trader alt or mission runner in empire, just nah. PVE in eve makes you PVP content. There have been ample encouragements to get out of empire, changes to sov, ships that can explore mine and fight there. No, hisec is still a blaze of crumb hoovering. Get out of hisec. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 16	Posted - 2016.08.12 02:28:30 - [155] - Quote Arkady Romanov wrote: It is commonly known that the player count has decreased over the last couple of years, and almost certainly a multitude of reasons why. Opinions on why are like noses, everyone has got one. The game is old; it just doesn't appeal to people anymore The industry is moving away from monthly subscription MMOs People play games on tablets and mobile phones nowadays. The actual number of players was masked by large volumes of multi-boxers which were culled when input broadcasting was banned Multiple character training made multiple accounts less desirable Gankers are ruining everything and chasing new players away Scammers are ruining everything and chasing new players away Change X or Change Y by CCP chased players away Goons ruined everything and chased people away To be honest it could be any of these things, all of these things, or none of them. We don't really know. My personal theory, and I stress that it is purely speculation, is that consistent decreases to the level of risk within the game in an attempt to keep the more vocal, conservative elements of the playerbase engaged resulted in the decline. I think most will agree that over the years changes have been made that have made the game safer for people. Naturally, not all changes are equal, and not all changes have resulted in more safety, but on balance, the game is now safer. Crimewatch changes, EHP buffs to ships that aren't traditionally designed for combat, faster CONCORD response times and larger consequences, rulings removing player discovered combat strategies such as Hyperdunking, bumping changes, watchlist changes, the implementation of jump fatigue, giving freighters low slot options, corporation "safety switches" that prevent awoxing, and so on. I'll not argue about the validity of the changes. CCP implemented them, therefore CCP has decided that they were necessary or worthwhile for whatever reason they feel like. The consequence of many of these changes is that it is more difficult for players to interact with each other in space, especially on an involuntary basis than it was previously. In all parts of space, you're at less risk of involuntary interference from players now than at any other time in the game's history (except possibly very early on in the game where the actual number of players was so low you just didn't SEE people at all if you went out far enough, and perhaps pre jump drive era). Players adapted to these changes of course (see CODE. as a reasonable example), but it did leave SOME play styles for dead or greatly reduced. So during the period of these changes, we also see a decline in the number of users active in the game. There is a correlation, certainly, but I'm certainly not going to claim that is the same as causation. If I had the power(tm) I'd engage in a little experiment though. I'd roll back some of the deliberate or incidental changes that resulted in a safer EVE, or even better, try and introduce new rewards and risks to the game, and see if those changes resulted in more or less players. CCP's current strategy has been pretty consistent over the last few years, but doesn't seem to have improved player numbers. If EVE is on the decline for other reasons, then what difference would it really make? If it turns out that the correlation IS causation, then maybe EVE could experience a (very bloody) renaissance. Just a thought. Ya know, I just don't buy the "Hi-Sec is safer" I see in about every post about hi-sec. While I agree there have been changes such as the "safety button" to remind you not to engage and of course the buddy list which I got to admit, I hate it! I've been around since 06 and unless you can show me real numbers that prove it's safer in hi-sec today than the years I've listed below, I'm not going to believe it. As a lot of players do the first thing I did when I created my first account was start mining. I did that in hi-sec for a long time and during breaks from null I would mine in hi-sec as well. 06,07,08,09,10,11 I rarely heard of ganking going on in hi-sec. Never once did I experience the constant bumping and ganking that is in hi-sec today. So please, show me the numbers, not being a smartass, just asking to see some legit figures. I agree there have been efforts made to make hi-sec more secure on CCPs part but is circumvented by studious players intent on forcing a certain play style for all players rather they wish it or not.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17350	Posted - 2016.08.12 02:44:04 - [156] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: I'm not going to believe it. Go **** with a corp in empire. not some punching bag right out of the rookie systems but an established one. try and hurt them. and no i dont mean smack a stargaff, actually try and hunt one specific group for a week =]\|[=
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1468	Posted - 2016.08.12 03:36:16 - [157] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Sandy Point wrote: I'm not going to believe it. Go **** with a corp in empire. not some punching bag right out of the rookie systems but an established one. try and hurt them. and no i dont mean smack a stargaff, actually try and hunt one specific group for a week Did exactly this. TLDR below. Newbro had 'his' loot can stolen at a site, told his corpie who mistakenly thought i had done it. He proceeded to disrespect me for about 30 minutes straight, with all the prison-raep talk and weird threats. So i put up for the wardec. Within an hour convo'd by CEO who asked for a few hours reprieve so they could move assets around and, i assume, either dock up or log off for the week. I graciously accepted these terms, then immediately killed one of their newer members moving all his stuff in a lolfit maller. Caught the same guy on a gate in a maller again and managed to kill him with a hound. Got the pod both times. Jumped one the next day doing missions in his domi. My dram couldn't get through his tank quick enough and i had to disengage when his corp members arrived after a shamefully long time. Stalked them using locators all the way to Amarr space where they would dock up, dock up , dock up and log off. This is all ONE GUY chasing a corp of older, pompous "nyah nyah concord, you can't hurt me" types. After two weeks let the war end and sent a can with all the corpses to the CEO. Lost a tempest to them on the weekend in the middle but that just added to the fun. It can be done, but hisec is safer than everywhere else, regardless. TLDR for livestock: some corps are just mouthy wimps undeserving of even a place at the hisec kid's table. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2016.08.12 04:14:56 - [158] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Sandy Point wrote: I'm not going to believe it. Go **** with a corp in empire. not some punching bag right out of the rookie systems but an established one. try and hurt them. and no i dont mean smack a stargaff, actually try and hunt one specific group for a week Didn't ask for a task that can be done, just takes more time and more effort than simply logging on, looking at a list. then using a locator. Basically what your gripe is about. (BTW, I don't like the change either but not for the same reason as you and many others. I'm asking you to show me legit numbers that hi-sec is safer now than it was around 2011 or around and before.
Princess Adhara University of Caille Gallente Federation 38	Posted - 2016.08.12 04:17:52 - [159] - Quote Maekchu wrote: The worst thing is, that those CEOs are recruiting total newbies and then just leave them out to dry when conflict arrives. They don't give a damn about their corpmates. While I didn't get in contact with all the newbies, I did persuade one to leave the corp and seek out a better corp or look into EvE Uni. Damn, I hate those CEOs that just recruit newbies and tell them to go mine, while they just stay docked in some citadel and do jack **** themselves. CEOs like those, are the reason why new players leave the game. Why so much prejudice? Slumlording is a respected profession in Eve, just like any other.
Arkady Romanov Hole Violence Goonswarm Federation 647	Posted - 2016.08.12 04:22:38 - [160] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: Ya know, I just don't buy the "Hi-Sec is safer" I see in about every post about hi-sec. While I agree there have been changes such as the "safety button" to remind you not to engage and of course the buddy list which I got to admit, I hate it! I've been around since 06 and unless you can show me real numbers that prove it's safer in hi-sec today than the years I've listed below, I'm not going to believe it. As a lot of players do the first thing I did when I created my first account was start mining. I did that in hi-sec for a long time and during breaks from null I would mine in hi-sec as well. 06,07,08,09,10,11 I rarely heard of ganking going on in hi-sec. Never once did I experience the constant bumping and ganking that is in hi-sec today. So please, show me the numbers, not being a smartass, just asking to see some legit figures. I agree there have been efforts made to make hi-sec more secure on CCPs part but is circumvented by studious players intent on forcing a certain play style for all players rather they wish it or not. I did say I was basing my theory on an observation that user numbers are down as safety increases. I explicitly said that I couldn't prove a direct link. So sorry, I can't provide the numbers you're looking for. That said, it doesn't take a significant leap of logic to conclude that mechanical changes such as: buddy list changes EHP buffs to mining ships Corp aggression safety switch creation of ships like the DST which have a curious inherent resistance bonus to a certain Gallente destroyer damage profile Rulings outlawing Hyperdunking timeout limits placed on bumping jump fatigue all of which I think you will agree reduce the opportunity for involuntary player interactions, translate into safer space on a mechanical level. I don't know how the outcome of those changes could be interpreted in any other way. If I could I'd go through every change in the game ever made and try to balance the "increases risk" versus "reduces risk" column but that's not really possible. Sorry about that. The contentious part of my theory is as follows: despite the adaptation of the player base to those (and other) mechanical changes, the overall outcome is less player interaction, which translate to smaller subscriber numbers. Unfortunately I wouldn't begin to know how to collect data to try and validate this claim. Like I said, its a theory of mine. On the other hand, if I had the means to introduce more risk, or reintroduce old risks to the game and then observe player numbers/logins etc, THEN I might be able to prove my theory that more safety actually translates to a smaller player base. By the same token, I KNOW you can't prove that there's more ganking now then there was in earlier years, pre-EHP buff to mining ships and lowslots for haulers. I apologize that I can't find them myself because I'm at work right now, but I have seen statistics linked multiple times on these forums that despite the whales Miniluv and CODE. kill, ganking is at an all time low in terms of volume (though perhaps not ISK value). If someone could help me out by posting that data (I think it even might have been a fanfest presentation?) I'd appreciate it. Whole Squid: Get Inked.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1834	Posted - 2016.08.12 05:09:07 - [161] - Quote reads OP's crap post punches OP in the mouth Get out. Of this game, preferably. Or just get out of hisec, then. Find a nice nullcorp and join them. Then you can graze on the fat grass....er...ore...for as long as you like. Until somebody else shows up, anyway. Star Trek Online is thataway> And hey, it's free. As for the moron that "doesn't believe hisec is safer now", oh, it is. Watchlist removal is just the latest thing. I remember when dodging CONCORD after a gank was considered skill, not an exploit. If you doubt hisec I safer now, lets have CCP change it so CONCORD doesn't have Magic Unkillable Ships and Magic Instascrams. Let's see what you thing then, moron. Oh, and bring back Watchlist. So I can see when you are logged on, and know when to hunt you. Since I cant do any of those things......now.....tell me. Do you feel safer yet? Well? Do you? ......Punk. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2016.08.12 05:35:58 - [162] - Quote Mike Adoulin wrote: reads OP's crap post punches OP in the mouth Get out. Of this game, preferably. Or just get out of hisec, then. Find a nice nullcorp and join them. Then you can graze on the fat grass....er...ore...for as long as you like. Until somebody else shows up, anyway. Star Trek Online is thataway> And hey, it's free. As for the moron that "doesn't believe hisec is safer now", oh, it is. Watchlist removal is just the latest thing. I remember when dodging CONCORD after a gank was considered skill, not an exploit. If you doubt hisec I safer now, lets have CCP change it so CONCORD doesn't have Magic Unkillable Ships and Magic Instascrams. Let's see what you thing then, moron. Oh, and bring back Watchlist. So I can see when you are logged on, and know when to hunt you. Since I cant do any of those things......now.....tell me. Do you feel safer yet? Well? Do you? ......Punk. Show me the numbers. Show me 07 hi-sec losses compared to 2014 high sec losses. Good way to win an argument there, calling people morons because they don't have the same view as yours. The beginning of your corporate name "Adolescent", fitting in your case, the attitude that is.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 111	Posted - 2016.08.12 06:26:02 - [163] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: Show me the numbers. Show me 07 hi-sec losses compared to 2014 high sec losses. I am not sure how you expect we players to provide you this data. I think; however, it is an irrefutable fact that the changes made to hi-sec mechanics have created an overall safer environment than without the changes. The simple fact that one can not, without changing a default setting, Concordokken anymore has surely reduced the number of lost rookie ships and T1 frigates. The list enumerated earlier highlights changes that were consciously made by CCP to increase safety. As for mining safety from 2009 - 2012 - Hulkageddon - which was ultimately killed by these changes. As referenced in this post, it was possible for 3 cheap and cheaply fit ships to take out a tanked Hulk. (Sidenote: That character is still playing today - maybe it sold to someone else but certainly did not unsubscribe as threatened in post ) This is not something you can choose to believe or not believe and it is not something evaluated based on number of kills. Hi-sec is inherently a safer place because of changes to game mechanics.
Chopper Rollins Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1470	Posted - 2016.08.12 06:33:07 - [164] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: Show me the numbers. Show me 07 hi-sec losses compared to 2014 high sec losses. Good way to win an argument there, calling people morons because they don't have the same view as yours. The beginning of your corporate name "Adolescent", fitting in your case, the attitude that is. Asking for stats isn't helpful, there could be other reasons for more or less ship loss in empire. Name -calling isn't helpful either, OP has already done it plenty, calling people pathological, immature and stupid. It contains no information. The explanation of how hisec is safer is solid, it's also how moving caps and supers around is a bit safer too. I'm not sure if that proves anyone's a moron, but it's a definite set if indications of how hisec grazing is easier, much easier than it was. Nerfing locator agents would be a bridge too far and force attackers to actually join the corps they want to hurt. You want to do your own thing in this game, you have to really want to and be willing to take measures. Sov was turned from a tug-o-war into a basketball game, probably good for stagnant old null, but letting hisec barnacles pressure the gods into letting the waters get shallower and warmer is over the top. Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 386	Posted - 2016.08.12 06:53:30 - [165] - Quote #bringbackthewatchlist This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Sandy Point Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2016.08.12 07:00:35 - [166] - Quote I appreciate the intelligent responses. I am willing to admit it when I'm wrong. Not sure how I wasn't aware of what was going on in the early days I played EVE 06 and up but I found a reference tonight that eludes to the fact hi-sec is indeed safer than when I first started playing. While I spent most of my time around Jaschercis in my early years I was never "pestered" as I am today while trying to accomplish something other than PVP. Just lucky I suppose. Anyway, here is the link which speaks briefly about the losses in hi-sec in 2007. http://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-stats-10-players-explode-every-minute-21-million-players-exploded-since-2007/ For the recent years I simply went to Dotlan : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats and checked the summaries for the most recent years. By the numbers on both links if correct (most likely are) then I'm remembering wrong. Not a huge change in last few years but pretty big leap between 2007 and 2015. I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. When I do mine I'm not the type who goes away from the keyboard. I usually have 3-4 alts mining with my Orca giving boost, not much time to go afk if you're wanting to maximize your mining efforts. However it's very difficult to do this in hi-sec anymore. I suppose now I need to decide rather I wish to continue playing in a toxic environment such as the state of EVE atm or move on. I'm sure I'll get a plenty of suggestions from GTFO to biomass my characters. Such is the toxicity of EVE. Anyway... there it is.
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3039	Posted - 2016.08.12 08:29:08 - [167] - Quote Hostility exists in two different venues. Within the game it does happen occasionally. There are specialist groups that focus on bringing pvp to you whether you like it or not.... despite popular opinion they are not ubiquitous. The gankers are not hiding under everyone's bunks... except mine, I think there might be one or two hiding down there. My pr0n keeps disappearing. The war dec corps tend to focus on what they see running down the main pipes anymore. Generally, if you are paying attention you are pretty safe. Most deaths are due to inattentiveness or bad decision making. Then there's the forums. Periodically there's some poor forlorn soul who found out the hard way that high sec isn't actually 100% safe. Outrage ensues. Pants are firmly placed on heads. Clamoring for change ensues. Pitchforks are sold in mass quantities. This has been going on for years. For a long time those of us on the other side of the fence spoke words of reason and advice. We genuinely tried, and many still do, to help our fuzzy butthurt brethren to understand the true nature of what went wrong, and how to keep it from happening again. Some learned. Most just kept screaming. Time after time CCP made changes to make life easier and safer for the little fuzzy bastards, presumably to either make more money, or just because they too were tiring of the annoying screaming noises. This was repeated, over and over. And over. They are insatiable, there's no such thing as enough safety, and with each change made to make life easier the response was only 'MOAR!' And a renewed wave of outrage is spawned over the next 'bad thing that happened to me because I was dumb' ensues. We're patient people. We like helping the confused and the new to get a better idea of the world they are dealing with. We also have limits to our patience. Eventually we get to the point where it's impossible to respond in a diplomatic fashion to whine threads like this one. What the OP is complaining about is beyond silly, as one of the primary tools for making the war effective was removed this year. It killed my livelihood. I'm on my way out, as are others because of this, so hearing someone scream that wars need to be nerfed further does in fact provoke a very hostile reaction from folks like myself. It's not toxic, it's an anger based off of entitled little shitwads ruining our game by inches over the years with the power of the vocal minority. mic drop Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2134	Posted - 2016.08.12 08:41:30 - [168] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: I appreciate the intelligent responses. I am willing to admit it when I'm wrong. Not sure how I wasn't aware of what was going on in the early days I played EVE 06 and up but I found a reference tonight that eludes to the fact hi-sec is indeed safer than when I first started playing. While I spent most of my time around Jaschercis in my early years I was never "pestered" as I am today while trying to accomplish something other than PVP. Just lucky I suppose. Anyway, here is the link which speaks briefly about the losses in hi-sec in 2007. http://www.pcgamer.com/eve-online-stats-10-players-explode-every-minute-21-million-players-exploded-since-2007/ For the recent years I simply went to Dotlan : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats and checked the summaries for the most recent years. By the numbers on both links if correct (most likely are) then I'm remembering wrong. Not a huge change in last few years but pretty big leap between 2007 and 2015. I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. When I do mine I'm not the type who goes away from the keyboard. I usually have 3-4 alts mining with my Orca giving boost, not much time to go afk if you're wanting to maximize your mining efforts. However it's very difficult to do this in hi-sec anymore. I suppose now I need to decide rather I wish to continue playing in a toxic environment such as the state of EVE atm or move on. I'm sure I'll get a plenty of suggestions from GTFO to biomass my characters. Such is the toxicity of EVE. Anyway... there it is. Excellent post and well said. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Captain Tardbar Sunken Ships 1159	Posted - 2016.08.12 08:59:59 - [169] - Quote I have a character that is in an NPC corp since 2009. What, is that seven years now? Really, just stay in NPC corp forever. The corp mechanics are broken and the player base is too sociopathic to accept change. NPC corp forever. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down.
Dibz Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 105	Posted - 2016.08.12 09:39:57 - [170] - Quote The only time a wardec is annoying is when I want to visit a trade hub. Other than that I don't even notice it.
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3040	Posted - 2016.08.12 10:14:58 - [171] - Quote Dibz wrote: The only time a wardec is annoying is when I want to visit a trade hub. Other than that I don't even notice it. That issue is pretty easily resolved by using an NPC alt to move your goods. It can get kind of awkward when buying ships though, because they have to be able to fly that thing you want. Aside from that though, yeah. Despite constantly living under wardec for two years straight i never had an issue with getting or moving goods or even just taking care of business. Fear can't be patched though, and that's the root issue that most have. The idea that they are under the gun is far more scary than actually being hunted. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Solecist Project 32028	Posted - 2016.08.12 10:38:28 - [172] - Quote Quote: I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. When I do mine I'm not the type who goes away from the keyboard. I usually have 3-4 alts mining with my Orca giving boost, not much time to go afk if you're wanting to maximize your mining efforts. However it's very difficult to do this in hi-sec anymore. CCP gave miners new tools to mine safely in high yield set-ups in highsec. That you don't use them isn't their fault. That easy minded people only ever tell others to mine in tanks isn't theirs either. You can be perfectly safe in highsec with multiple covetors and an orca. All it takes is preparation and a proper setup. You have no ground to complain, because you don't even try. Lazyness deserves punishment! "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Jessica Starblaze Rookie Help 3	Posted - 2016.08.12 11:21:37 - [173] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: I suppose now I need to decide rather I wish to continue playing in a toxic environment such as the state of EVE atm or move on. I'm sure I'll get a plenty of suggestions from GTFO to biomass my characters. Such is the toxicity of EVE. Anyway... there it is. The interesting part is that the toxic people mostly are not the ones who force PvP on people. The toxic people most of the time are the no PvP at all type of players and people who advocate nerfing opportunities to create explosions even further. Here one recent example of a very active poster who keeps pushing to make life harder for the people who just play the game within it-¦s ruleset. Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Normal drivel Don't you ever get the message, I think you are a complete waste of space, your opinions are crap and matter not to me, I did not even read a single word of what you just wasted your time writing, I am sure its just one big yawn of stuff you regurgitate from your rear end. That is what I would call toxic. If you don-¦t want to respond to something that is all fine and well, but there is no need to insult people like that. And on top of that you are suprised that the kind of people that are insulted in such a manner do not take you seriously or are not willing to have a real discussion where maybe at some point one could come up with a solution where all sides are winning. Especially here on the forums most of the time it is the people who were on the recieving end who start throwing around insults, not the other way around. So why do people even react suprised, when the only answer they get is: HTFU? Ask yourself the following question: If someone starts a conversation with you and calls you a sociopath or psychoparth right from the start without even knowing anything about you: Would you be interested in a serious and civil discussion with a person like that yourself? Years ago I was actively suicide ganking myself, I never was one of those code guys, I only ganked targets that made me at least 1 billion profit. I never was one to point fingers at people for being silly enough to fly around in a t1 hauler with billions of stuff in their cargo. I never aproached them or tried to rub it in, but I was contacted regularly by my victims who did not even understand what was going on and then decided that insulting me or making threats (they never followed up on) was a good way to behave. Here an example of a very brief conversation I had with one of my victims after I killed him with 2b+ in his cargo. Victim > ok i just want to know why Me > money? Victim > money for what Me> loot Victim > lol thats why Victim > damn dude your dumb as hell Victim > all i lost i cna get back in a week but you take a chance lose sec standings and for nothing Victim > lol well have fun dumb ass After that I just left the conversation. If he would not have just tried to insult me I probably might even have explained to him that I make billions of ISk that way thx to having al alt ready to scoop the loot. But why would I bother to explain that to someone who is that toxic? Here another example of mails I recieved from a victim: "You are on my hit list now. Ganna hunt you down." " I got IMU corp after ya - good hunting" "idiot - i don't care if your dumb or not just watch your back from now on" I did not even say a single word to him, yet he chose to throw around insults and making threats. Sidenote: He never came after me and the corp that was supposed to be after me never showed up either. The only time I ever saw people from the attacker side acting like that was only in response to conversations or mails like that. Sure, just because someone insults you it does not mean that you have to insult them back. The right thing to do would be to just turn around and leave instead of pouring more full into the fire. But still if you approach someone in such a hostile way, you should expect not to get a friendly reply as well. That is just the way most human beings are. With examples like the above in mind it always makes me chuckle, when people blame the gankers and wardeccers for all the fecies that people fling around. I don-¦t want to say that there are not any gankers and other PvPers who like to do it as well. But blaming it all on the PvP crowd, at least from my own experience is completly missing the mark.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26589	Posted - 2016.08.12 11:48:44 - [174] - Quote Jessica Starblaze wrote: Sandy Point wrote: I suppose now I need to decide rather I wish to continue playing in a toxic environment such as the state of EVE atm or move on. I'm sure I'll get a plenty of suggestions from GTFO to biomass my characters. Such is the toxicity of EVE. Anyway... there it is. The interesting part is that the toxic people mostly are not the ones who force PvP on people. The toxic people most of the time are the no PvP at all type of players and people who advocate nerfing opportunities to create explosions even further. Here one recent example of a very active poster who keeps pushing to make life harder for the people who just play the game within it-¦s ruleset. Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Normal drivel Don't you ever get the message, I think you are a complete waste of space, your opinions are crap and matter not to me, I did not even read a single word of what you just wasted your time writing, I am sure its just one big yawn of stuff you regurgitate from your rear end. That is what I would call toxic. If you don-¦t want to respond to something that is all fine and well, but there is no need to insult people like that. And on top of that you are suprised that the kind of people that are insulted in such a manner do not take you seriously or are not willing to have a real discussion where maybe at some point one could come up with a solution where all sides are winning. Especially here on the forums most of the time it is the people who were on the recieving end who start throwing around insults, not the other way around. So why do people even react suprised, when the only answer they get is: HTFU? Ask yourself the following question: If someone starts a conversation with you and calls you a sociopath or psychoparth right from the start without even knowing anything about you: Would you be interested in a serious and civil discussion with a person like that yourself? Ironically Dracvlad is a PvPer, while I am a self confessed non PvPer with zero killboard presence; what Dracvlad appears to find offensive is my attitude towards PvP, I use the game mechanics and common sense to actively avoid it instead of whining on the forums. If you look back through our toxic friends posts he has a habit of attacking those who PvE while taking responsibility for their own safety, myself and Jenn aSide being his main targets. That we do so appears to be outside his experience and he just can't seem to acknowledge that it's possible to do so; instead people like myself are supposedly on some sort of "do not shoot" list that is maintained by gankers. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2135	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:37:24 - [175] - Quote That is so funny, because when I tell the toxic trolls where to go I am toxic I have not laughed so hard for ages, thanks guys, really loved it, great example of toxic forum posting, lovely stuff When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14420	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:39:14 - [176] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ironically Dracvlad is a PvPer, while I am a self confessed non PvPer with zero killboard presence; what Dracvlad appears to find offensive is my attitude towards PvP, I use the game mechanics and common sense to actively avoid it instead of whining on the forums. If you look back through Dracvlads posts he has a habit of attacking those who PvE while taking responsibility for their own safety, myself and Jenn aSide being his main targets. That we do so appears to be outside his experience and he just can't seem to acknowledge that it's possible; instead people like myself are supposedly on some sort of "do not shoot" list that is maintained by gankers. I have that guy on ignore and am loathe to even mention anything close to being about him..so i won't lol. But I will say that I have experienced people like what you describe. The pretty much live a certain "narrative" where other people are poor downtrodden souls who need their beneficent help to fight against the injustices of the system!. Because someone has to speak for the voiceless little guys!. So when you politely tell them that rather than being some poor pitiful thing that needs them, you are a grown man/woman/space creature who can not only hold his/her/it's own but ENJOYS doing so and then ask them nicely if they could please Sod off. Well, you just challenged their world view, now didn't you ? More seriously, folks like what I describe have white knight personalities and the idea that people can be independent and self responsible just ticks them right off. They will never understand that if you want to help people in this game, you don't run to CCP and ask for fixes (which just creates more entitled victim types which in turn attracts even more gankers and war dec types), you educate people to the realities of the game and tell them that they (rather the ccp or the community) are responsible and accountable for their outcomes and fun and security in game.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2135	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:42:28 - [177] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Ironically Dracvlad is a PvPer, while I am a self confessed non PvPer with zero killboard presence; what Dracvlad appears to find offensive is my attitude towards PvP, I use the game mechanics and common sense to actively avoid it instead of whining on the forums. If you look back through Dracvlads posts he has a habit of attacking those who PvE while taking responsibility for their own safety, myself and Jenn aSide being his main targets. That we do so appears to be outside his experience and he just can't seem to acknowledge that it's possible; instead people like myself are supposedly on some sort of "do not shoot" list that is maintained by gankers. I have that guy on ignore and am loathe to even mention anything close to being about him..so i won't lol. But I will say that I have experienced people like what you describe. The pretty much live a certain "narrative" where other people are poor downtrodden souls who need their beneficent help to fight against the injustices of the system!. Because someone has to speak for the voiceless little guys!. So when you politely tell them that rather than being some poor pitiful thing that needs them, you are a grown man/woman/space creature who can not only hold his/her/it's own but ENJOYS doing so and then ask them nicely if they could please Sod off. Well, you just challenged their world view, now didn't you ? More seriously, folks like what I describe have white knight personalities and the idea that people can be independent and self responsible just ticks them right off. They will never understand that if you want to help people in this game, you don't run to CCP and ask for fixes (which just creates more entitled victim types which in turn attracts even more gankers and war dec types), you educate people to the realities of the game and tell them that they (rather the ccp or the community) are responsible and accountable for their outcomes and fun and security in game. That is because you are a self congratulatory windbag who throws in insults at people you disagree with then go off on long winded off topic explanations about how super you are and then tell people to leave the game. The most amusing one for me was you telling people that you did not get your bling fitted Macherial ganked by CODE, because you were skilled or something... And the best part of you blocking me is that you no longer report me when I call you an idiot..., though that used to crack me up all the time. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 392	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:48:35 - [178] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. Oh my sweet summer child. If you think "Uninstall" or "GTFO" is toxic, then you haven't experienced the toxicity coming from carebears that gets caught in PvP. I will use the term "carebear", since not all PvE'ers are carebears. While it is true, that the usual attitude originating from PvP'ers is "Get gud or GTFO". I hardly see this as toxic behavior, or at least not even close to the level of toxicity I have experienced from carebears. Let me just give a few examples from one of my recent wardecs. These are some of the terms used in mails on convoes by the enemy corp, when we used game mechanics to blow up their stuff or disrupt activity. - Piece of ** - *** which is only doing - Should I invite you to dinner so you can become my little *? - Human waste The funny thing is, these are not even that bad. Do you know how many times I've been told to die of cancer, go ** myself or jump off a bridge? Yes, the EvE community can be toxic. But from my experience, it rarely comes from PvP'ers, since most PvP'ers are not attached to their space assets and usually understands that one day ships will die. The vast majority of the toxicity comes from carebears, that suddenly finds themselves on the receiving end of a conflict.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17840	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:53:12 - [179] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Sandy Point wrote: I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. Oh my sweet summer child. If you think "Uninstall" or "GTFO" is toxic, then you haven't experienced the toxicity coming from carebears that gets caught in PvP. I will use the term "carebear", since not all PvE'ers are carebears. While it is true, that the usual attitude originating from PvP'ers is "Get gud or GTFO". I hardly see this as toxic behavior, or at least not even close to the level of toxicity I have experienced from carebears. Let me just give a few examples from one of my recent wardecs. These are some of the terms used in mails on convoes by the enemy corp, when we used game mechanics to blow up their stuff or disrupt activity. - Piece of ** - *** which is only doing - Should I invite you to dinner so you can become my little *? - Human waste The funny thing is, these are not even that bad. Do you know how many times I've been told to die of cancer, go ** myself or jump off a bridge? Yes, the EvE community can be toxic. But from my experience, it rarely comes from PvP'ers, since most PvP'ers are not attached to their space assets and usually understands that one day ships will die. The vast majority of the toxicity comes from carebears, that suddenly finds themselves on the receiving end of a conflict. When we used to gank miners we set up a complaints form and I wish we had kept them around somewhere because the bitterness and hate would have made even the dark side step back.
Lan Wang C.Q.B Snuffed Out 3384	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:54:55 - [180] - Quote we use to get the mails while gatecamping, funny stuff especially when you decloak your smartbombing battleship and pop there shiney little pods back to jita Loyalist to Angel Cartel Your killboard reads like a "how to get farmed 101" - Noah Reese
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2136	Posted - 2016.08.12 13:59:28 - [181] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Maekchu wrote: Sandy Point wrote: I just do not recall the extent of hostility I see present toward anyone who wishes not to engage in PVP. Oh my sweet summer child. If you think "Uninstall" or "GTFO" is toxic, then you haven't experienced the toxicity coming from carebears that gets caught in PvP. I will use the term "carebear", since not all PvE'ers are carebears. While it is true, that the usual attitude originating from PvP'ers is "Get gud or GTFO". I hardly see this as toxic behavior, or at least not even close to the level of toxicity I have experienced from carebears. Let me just give a few examples from one of my recent wardecs. These are some of the terms used in mails on convoes by the enemy corp, when we used game mechanics to blow up their stuff or disrupt activity. - Piece of ** - *** which is only doing - Should I invite you to dinner so you can become my little *? - Human waste The funny thing is, these are not even that bad. Do you know how many times I've been told to die of cancer, go ** myself or jump off a bridge? Yes, the EvE community can be toxic. But from my experience, it rarely comes from PvP'ers, since most PvP'ers are not attached to their space assets and usually understands that one day ships will die. The vast majority of the toxicity comes from carebears, that suddenly finds themselves on the receiving end of a conflict. When we used to gank miners we set up a complaints form and I wish we had kept them around somewhere because the bitterness and hate would have made even the dark side step back. And just why did you set up a complaints form, to rub it in that you had blown them up so you could get to them personally and make yourself feel superior. There you go... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lan Wang C.Q.B Snuffed Out 3386	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:06:26 - [182] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: And just why did you set up a complaints form, to rub it in that you had blown them up so you could get to them personally and make yourself feel superior. There you go... Probably for the admins records etc Loyalist to Angel Cartel Your killboard reads like a "how to get farmed 101" - Noah Reese
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2136	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:10:09 - [183] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Dracvlad wrote: And just why did you set up a complaints form, to rub it in that you had blown them up so you could get to them personally and make yourself feel superior. There you go... Probably for the admins records etc Thanks for that, yeah I have this mental impression of baltec1 with glasses on the end of his nose, peering at a mass of dusty papers from when can flipping ended When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lan Wang C.Q.B Snuffed Out 3386	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:13:44 - [184] - Quote so dravclad what is your stance on all this ganking stuff? it comes across to me as you are pretty much against it? or am i wrong? Loyalist to Angel Cartel Your killboard reads like a "how to get farmed 101" - Noah Reese
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17840	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:15:37 - [185] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Dracvlad wrote: And just why did you set up a complaints form, to rub it in that you had blown them up so you could get to them personally and make yourself feel superior. There you go... Probably for the admins records etc Deflection. Give them a form and they bug the corp members less, worked wonders as they bitched at an automated response rather than threaten to kill the families of our members and **** our pets.
Solecist Project 32029	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:24:53 - [186] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lan Wang wrote: Dracvlad wrote: And just why did you set up a complaints form, to rub it in that you had blown them up so you could get to them personally and make yourself feel superior. There you go... Probably for the admins records etc Deflection. Give them a form and they bug the corp members less, worked wonders as they bitched at an automated response rather than threaten to kill the families of our members and **** our pets. The worst part is that if someone like this would be your neighbor ... ... he would come over and do as he said. But they call gankers sociopaths... "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:36:36 - [187] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: so dravclad what is your stance on all this ganking stuff? it comes across to me as you are pretty much against it? or am i wrong? Well if you get past all the emo stuff produced by both sides, most notably the Gankers who immediately classify anyone who talks about balance as being against ganking. Ganking should exist in this game period, it is a totally valid game play and creates content, the key aspect is not to let it get unbalanced or that mechanics are such that people feel that CCP have just left them to be taken advantage of. My attitude is to propose adjustments in consequences, the most important is locking gankers out of NPC stations in hisec once -10. There are Citadels now so they still have a base. The bumping mechanic needs to be adjusted ASAP, leaving people being bumped for hours is not great. The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. That would make it less of a free ride, make it harder. But I get told that I want to block ganking by making it impossible, well nope, that is more skin in the game for them. Does that help? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:43:57 - [188] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26590	Posted - 2016.08.12 14:51:42 - [189] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is so funny, because when I tell the toxic trolls where to go I am toxic I have not laughed so hard for ages, thanks guys, really loved it, great example of toxic forum posting, lovely stuff Please explain how pointing out that it is entirely possible to safely PvE in Eve, without falling victim to the people that you disparage as "griefers", by taking responsibility for your own safety and using the game mechanics to your advantage, is toxic. Campaigning for increased safety for those that can't be arsed to put in any effort, when the game is already ridiculously safe for those that do, erodes one of the cornerstones of the game. That is both anathema to the nature of the game and makes the efforts of those that do put in the effort worthless. You constantly appear to be advocating for changes that are the equivalent of a nanny state, which erodes personal choice and responsibility. I would suggest that you educate the people you claim to want to nurture and protect from the depredations of others, the problem is that the majority of them don't want to listen or follow the advice that you may give, because it involves the expenditure of effort. It's almost like a relationship where one party tries to mould the other into something else, and then buggers off when the other party changes because the relationship is now boring. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:12:43 - [190] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8562	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:14:34 - [191] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. Please, do answer his question. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17841	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:15:50 - [192] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. I'm pointing out that glaring hole in your argument.
Glamor Boy Fergison State War Academy Caldari State 1	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:17:11 - [193] - Quote I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. I've put up with senseless gankings, been scammed a few times, sat docked while war decs ticked down, stayed logged off for weeks while war dec corps insisted on prolonging war decs even when they didn't get any kills and have done my best to fit in with the game due to my love for the game potential. In the process I've paid subscriptions on three accounts until I have accumulated a total of nearly 100m of skill points on my three alts. I've also tried to enjoy the aspects of the game that work for me while ignoring the scamming, ganking and general anti social behavior. But the time has come for me to give up. The potential of enjoyment has finally dried up to the point where I simply don't log in any longer. All but one of my accounts have expired and been left that way. This last account was paid up until November, but I shan't be logging into it. Frankly I've not played on this account since last December. I've tried in the past to make suggestions that would allow me to continue. I've tried to find ways to co-exist with the average Eve players. But all said and done, I've given up and will not be adding funds to the CCP coffers in the future. Instead I've switched over to another game and have made substantial investments (time and money) into that game over the last few months. And you know what the odd things is to me? If CCP had done like so many other games have done and created a PvE server to allow members the choice of game style, I (and dozens of other ex players I've met) would continue enjoying the game far into the future. But they have refused to do so and the result is a gradually diminishing player community. Who knows? Perhaps CCP will give it a try some day and perhaps I'll return if the option of PvE gameplay is enabled. But until then, I've given up. Forced PvP is not the way I choose to play Eve so I will no longer try to play Eve.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:20:39 - [194] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. I'm pointing out that glaring hole in your argument. Simply because most people don't use them... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26592	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:22:38 - [195] - Quote Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: And you know what the odd things is to me? If CCP had done like so many other games have done and created a PvE server to allow members the choice of game style, I (and dozens of other ex players I've met) would continue enjoying the game far into the future. But they have refused to do so and the result is a gradually diminishing player community. Why would a developer that produces a game that is advertised as a PvP sandbox set up a PvE server for the same game? That said there is the test server if you want to PvE in peace. Quote: Who knows? Perhaps CCP will give it a try some day and perhaps I'll return if the option of PvE gameplay is enabled. But until then, I've given up. PvE play is already enabled, despite Eve being a primarily PvP game it is possible to PvE in almost complete safety. Quote: Forced PvP is not the way I choose to play Eve so I will no longer try to play Eve. It's not forced at all, Eve is a PvP game and advertised as such. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17842	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:26:14 - [196] - Quote Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. I've put up with senseless gankings, been scammed a few times, sat docked while war decs ticked down, stayed logged off for weeks while war dec corps insisted on prolonging war decs even when they didn't get any kills and have done my best to fit in with the game due to my love for the game potential. In the process I've paid subscriptions on three accounts until I have accumulated a total of nearly 100m of skill points on my three alts. I've also tried to enjoy the aspects of the game that work for me while ignoring the scamming, ganking and general anti social behavior. But the time has come for me to give up. The potential of enjoyment has finally dried up to the point where I simply don't log in any longer. All but one of my accounts have expired and been left that way. This last account was paid up until November, but I shan't be logging into it. Frankly I've not played on this account since last December. I've tried in the past to make suggestions that would allow me to continue. I've tried to find ways to co-exist with the average Eve players. But all said and done, I've given up and will not be adding funds to the CCP coffers in the future. Instead I've switched over to another game and have made substantial investments (time and money) into that game over the last few months. And you know what the odd things is to me? If CCP had done like so many other games have done and created a PvE server to allow members the choice of game style, I (and dozens of other ex players I've met) would continue enjoying the game far into the future. But they have refused to do so and the result is a gradually diminishing player community. Who knows? Perhaps CCP will give it a try some day and perhaps I'll return if the option of PvE gameplay is enabled. But until then, I've given up. Forced PvP is not the way I choose to play Eve so I will no longer try to play Eve. Remove the pvp and the economy crashes, leaving the pve players with nothing but grinding missions and gathering worthless loot in their officer fitted ships. They would quit for the next 3 month wonder that caters to their needs before abandoning that too.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17842	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:27:32 - [197] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The loot scoping mechanic needs to be adjusted, the gankers avoid consequences by the use of a alt in a noob ship scooping to a DST and then the freighter pilot scooping into his hold from the DST. You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. I'm pointing out that glaring hole in your argument. Simply because most people don't use them... That's their choice. Tools are already there.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:30:09 - [198] - Quote Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. I've put up with senseless gankings, been scammed a few times, sat docked while war decs ticked down, stayed logged off for weeks while war dec corps insisted on prolonging war decs even when they didn't get any kills and have done my best to fit in with the game due to my love for the game potential. In the process I've paid subscriptions on three accounts until I have accumulated a total of nearly 100m of skill points on my three alts. I've also tried to enjoy the aspects of the game that work for me while ignoring the scamming, ganking and general anti social behavior. But the time has come for me to give up. The potential of enjoyment has finally dried up to the point where I simply don't log in any longer. All but one of my accounts have expired and been left that way. This last account was paid up until November, but I shan't be logging into it. Frankly I've not played on this account since last December. I've tried in the past to make suggestions that would allow me to continue. I've tried to find ways to co-exist with the average Eve players. But all said and done, I've given up and will not be adding funds to the CCP coffers in the future. Instead I've switched over to another game and have made substantial investments (time and money) into that game over the last few months. And you know what the odd things is to me? If CCP had done like so many other games have done and created a PvE server to allow members the choice of game style, I (and dozens of other ex players I've met) would continue enjoying the game far into the future. But they have refused to do so and the result is a gradually diminishing player community. Who knows? Perhaps CCP will give it a try some day and perhaps I'll return if the option of PvE gameplay is enabled. But until then, I've given up. Forced PvP is not the way I choose to play Eve so I will no longer try to play Eve. I noticed your issue on the prolonging of war decs, this is something that CCP needs to look into in terms of game balance. What as a matter of interest did you do in game, if you don't mind me asking. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14420	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:32:16 - [199] - Quote Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. I've put up with senseless gankings, been scammed a few times, sat docked while war decs ticked down, stayed logged off for weeks while war dec corps insisted on prolonging war decs even when they didn't get any kills and have done my best to fit in with the game due to my love for the game potential. In the process I've paid subscriptions on three accounts until I have accumulated a total of nearly 100m of skill points on my three alts. I've also tried to enjoy the aspects of the game that work for me while ignoring the scamming, ganking and general anti social behavior. But the time has come for me to give up. The potential of enjoyment has finally dried up to the point where I simply don't log in any longer. All but one of my accounts have expired and been left that way. This last account was paid up until November, but I shan't be logging into it. Frankly I've not played on this account since last December. I've tried in the past to make suggestions that would allow me to continue. I've tried to find ways to co-exist with the average Eve players. But all said and done, I've given up and will not be adding funds to the CCP coffers in the future. Instead I've switched over to another game and have made substantial investments (time and money) into that game over the last few months. And you know what the odd things is to me? If CCP had done like so many other games have done and created a PvE server to allow members the choice of game style, I (and dozens of other ex players I've met) would continue enjoying the game far into the future. But they have refused to do so and the result is a gradually diminishing player community. Who knows? Perhaps CCP will give it a try some day and perhaps I'll return if the option of PvE gameplay is enabled. But until then, I've given up. Forced PvP is not the way I choose to play Eve so I will no longer try to play Eve. Even though it will make no difference, I'm going to put out a disclaimer anyways: I'm not trying to hurt your feelings here, I'm simply posting what I see as the truth. With that out of the way, here goes. You didn't belong in EVE to begin with. you very 1st paragraph demonstrates that: Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. I've put up with senseless gankings, been scammed a few times, sat docked while war decs ticked down, stayed logged off for weeks while war dec corps insisted on prolonging war decs even when they didn't get any kills and have done my best to fit in with the game due to my love for the game potential. Problem #1, the word potential. like many who dislike EVE, you didn't play the game because you liked what it was, you played it because it had 'potential' to be something you might like in the future. I say this not as an insult but because it's the only word that fits, That's stupid. Problem #2. Like ALL who don't get on well in EVE, you don't have a sense of personal responsibility. You've been ganked and scammed multiple times, and sat docked or even logged off because of War Decs? I've been playing since 2007 and I can count the ganks (of 2 shuttles and 1 pod) and scamms (paid 100 mil for a haulers) on one hand and have fingers left over. This is because I came into the game KNOWING people were out to get me so my gameplay revolves around not getting got, and I've succeeded. That you haven't means that you don't have the ability to learn how. That is not the game's fault. That is yours. You should have never made the choice to play EVE in the 1st place, and I doubt you will ever accept this conclusion because it takes a responsible person to acknowledge their mistakes. You'd be better off in one of the many many Nanny State themepark offerings the games industry has to offer. Nothing wrong with that, but again it would have served you better it's you'd not wasted your time with EVE. Good luck in your future endeavors.
Lan Wang C.Q.B Snuffed Out 3389	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:36:31 - [200] - Quote Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. Its kinda funny you mention this, anti-social behaviour, is this coming from a guy in an npc corp, runs missions or pve's solo and doesnt interact with anyone in the game? complaining that highly active and social corporations/alliances who create content for a lot of people are being anti-social what anti-social behaviour in real life is, is the total opposite to what it is in eve Loyalist to Angel Cartel Your killboard reads like a "how to get farmed 101" - Noah Reese
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 393	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:40:42 - [201] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I noticed your issue on the prolonging of war decs, this is something that CCP needs to look into in terms of game balance. What as a matter of interest did you do in game, if you don't mind me asking. I never understood, why some of you feel wardecs are unbalanced. If anything, the wardecs are unbalanced in favor of the defender. The aggressor pays all the fees and both sides can shoot each with no concord intervention. In addition to that, the defender can just leave corp whenever they please and dodge the wardec. Yes, the wardec system needs a fix. But the fix should address the issue of dodging wardecs. Nothing related to increasing safety for the defender, since you can't really get more safe than in it's current iteration, when you instantly can just dodge the dec by leaving the corp.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14420	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:40:43 - [202] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Please explain how pointing out that it is entirely possible to safely PvE in Eve, without falling victim to the people that you disparage as "griefers", by taking responsibility for your own safety and using the game mechanics to your advantage, is toxic. I thought I did Oh you were talking to that other guy lol. Quote: Campaigning for increased safety for those that can't be arsed to put in any effort, when the game is already ridiculously safe for those that do, erodes one of the cornerstones of the game. That is both anathema to the nature of the game and makes the efforts of those that do put in the effort worthless. You constantly appear to be advocating for changes that are the equivalent of a nanny state, which erodes personal choice and responsibility. I would suggest that you educate the people you claim to want to nurture and protect from the depredations of others, the problem is that the majority of them don't want to listen or follow the advice that you may give, because it involves the expenditure of effort. That won't happen, and for a funny reason, the same reason people in real life choose to try to 'fight for others' rather than help them learn how to fight for themselves. If they teach others, if they empower others, if they tell others they are accountable for their own outcomes, they eventually put themselves out of work. Their 'advocacy' isn't about helping others, it's about making themselves feel good about being the type of person who helps others. I know I'm not alone at detecting the selfish undertones that fly off these people when they post. Quote: It's almost like a relationship where one party tries to mould the other into something else, and then buggers off when the other party changes because the relationship is now boring. I remember telling that bad joke on these very forums about a guy who realizes he's been a jerk to his wife after surviving a bad car accident, so he straightens up his act towards her, only to come home a week later to a Dear John letter that includes the words "But you just aren't the person I fell in love with" As in life, so in EVE. The Irony of CCP making EVE more 'accessible' and 'user friendly' and 'easy to learn, hard to master' is a less popular game than it was when it just gave you a space ship, a bad "non-tutorial" and told you to go **** yourself.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 393	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:42:52 - [203] - Quote Lan Wang wrote: Glamor Boy Fergison wrote: I've honestly tried to put up with the anti-social game design and players who insist on anti-social behavior. Its kinda funny you mention this, anti-social behaviour, is this coming from a guy in an npc corp, runs missions or pve's solo and doesnt interact with anyone in the game? complaining that highly active and social corporations/alliances who create content for a lot of people are being anti-social what anti-social behaviour in real life is, is the total opposite to what it is in eve Heh... was about to point out the same. So basically, we should put up a PvE server so people can become even more anti-social, cause anti-social game design is a problem? What?
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:49:50 - [204] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I noticed your issue on the prolonging of war decs, this is something that CCP needs to look into in terms of game balance. What as a matter of interest did you do in game, if you don't mind me asking. I never understood, why some of you feel wardecs are unbalanced. If anything, the wardecs are unbalanced in favor of the defender. The aggressor pays all the fees and both sides can shoot each with no concord intervention. In addition to that, the defender can just leave corp whenever they please and dodge the wardec. Yes, the wardec system needs a fix. But the fix should address the issue of dodging wardecs. Nothing related to increasing safety for the defender, since you can't really get more safe than in it's current iteration, when you instantly can just dodge the dec by leaving the corp. If you read anything I wrote on this you will find that I want the war dec fees reduced, the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. I want that the war dec follows a character if he joins another player corp within the 7 days of leaving. On the other side I want something to balance off against perpetual war decs. I also want a OS that will give watch list functionality in a constellation which is vulnerable when active. Can I sigh now....? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17370	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:54:03 - [205] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Can I sigh now....? no because Quote: the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. you just pulled that out of your arse. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:55:20 - [206] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: You keep on saying this but have yet to explain how you squeeze a 1 million m3 package of freight containers through a 60k m3 hold. 62.5k hold at level 5. You are diverting attention from the basic mechanic issue. I'm pointing out that glaring hole in your argument. Simply because most people don't use them... That's their choice. Tools are already there. There are certain reasons around the algorithm that decides what drops, meaning that it is often better for the ganker in terms of expensive items dropping if you use cans. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:57:34 - [207] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Can I sigh now....? no because Quote: the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. you just pulled that out of your arse. Bit smelly then, well a number of war dec players said that, because it was the only way they could afford these very large war dec fees. It also seems that some war dec entities are created around some very rich backers. I guess that came out of my arse too... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 393	Posted - 2016.08.12 15:58:12 - [208] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: If you read anything I wrote on this you will find that I want the war dec fees reduced, the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. I want that the war dec follows a character if he joins another player corp within the 7 days of leaving. On the other side I want something to balance off against perpetual war decs. I also want a OS that will give watch list functionality in a constellation which is vulnerable when active. Can I sigh now....? Sorry for not stalking you around, having read all your posts, having knowledge of your political views and perverse tendencies. Is it normal in your view, for other people to know exactly all of the details surrounding an internet persona? If you've posted it in this thread, then I can just say that I haven't read the whole thread through thoroughly, nor would I remember your specific view in a topic. While I know you do lurk around these forums a lot, I honestly don't find you interesting enough a character that I would note down in detail all your views and notions on game balance. Yes, you can sigh now, if it somehow makes you feel better. I just responded to part of your post. Cause it reminded me of the thousand complaints I have heard about wardec balance and how unfair it is to the defender. While in reality, it is quite the opposite.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26593	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:01:12 - [209] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: As in life, so in EVE. The Irony of CCP making EVE more 'accessible' and 'user friendly' and 'easy to learn, hard to master' is a less popular game than it was when it just gave you a space ship, a bad "non-tutorial" and told you to go ** yourself. Ahh the good old days, eloquently summed up as: CCP Soundwave wrote:** Welcome to Eve Online. HereGÇÖs your RubikGÇÖs Cube. Go frak* yourself. *keeping it clean Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8562	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:08:07 - [210] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: There are certain reasons around the algorithm that decides what drops, meaning that it is often better for the ganker in terms of expensive items dropping if you use cans. [Citation needed] Also still wondering how 1M cargo fits into a single DST, containers or no. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:11:43 - [211] - Quote Maekchu wrote: Dracvlad wrote: If you read anything I wrote on this you will find that I want the war dec fees reduced, the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. I want that the war dec follows a character if he joins another player corp within the 7 days of leaving. On the other side I want something to balance off against perpetual war decs. I also want a OS that will give watch list functionality in a constellation which is vulnerable when active. Can I sigh now....? Sorry for not stalking you around, having read all your posts, having knowledge of your political views and perverse tendencies. Is it normal in your view, for other people to know exactly all of the details surrounding an internet persona? If you've posted it in this thread, then I can just say that I haven't read the whole thread through thoroughly, nor would I remember your specific view in a topic. While I know you do lurk around these forums a lot, I honestly don't find you interesting enough a character that I would note down in detail all your views and notions on game balance. Yes, you can sigh now, if it somehow makes you feel better. I just responded to part of your post. Cause it reminded me of the thousand complaints I have heard about wardec balance and how unfair it is to the defender. While in reality, it is quite the opposite. Well you have replied to me a few times and I have said that multiple times, but what ho. And by the way I have not accused you of doing a Jonah. The game is about balance so it is interesting to play, one cannot simply ignore the other persons point of view when looking at game balance, I went out of my way to understand Dirty Forum Alts point of view because he showed me something more in terms of his posts,, same thing with a couple of other war dec players. But I am happy to have shown you that this player (me) who is accused of wanting 100% security in hisec by people like Jonah is nothing of the sort. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17370	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:14:43 - [212] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Can I sigh now....? no because Quote: the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. you just pulled that out of your arse. Bit smelly then, well a number of war dec players said that, because it was the only way they could afford these very large war dec fees. It also seems that some war dec entities are created around some very rich backers. I guess that came out of my arse too... dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. those are two different things that happend years apart from one another drac. =]\|[=
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26594	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:16:49 - [213] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well you have replied to me a few times and I have said that multiple times, but what ho. And by the way I have not accused you of doing a Jonah. The game is about balance so it is interesting to play, one cannot simply ignore the other persons point of view when looking at game balance, I went out of my way to understand Dirty Forum Alts point of view because he showed me something more in terms of his posts,, same thing with a couple of other war dec players. But I am happy to have shown you that this player (me) who is accused of wanting 100% security in hisec by people like Jonah is nothing of the sort. Regularly accuses me of being his own personal stalker, has an unhealthy obsession with me Ignoring the other players point of view is something you're pretty accomplished at by the way, you regularly do exactly that to people who manage to remain safe through their own efforts. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:17:10 - [214] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There are certain reasons around the algorithm that decides what drops, meaning that it is often better for the ganker in terms of expensive items dropping if you use cans. [Citation needed] Also still wondering how 1M cargo fits into a single DST, containers or no. Why? I am not giving that to you, do your own analysis. That's because it does not fit into a single DST, its fairly simple, alt scoops to DST, freighter pilots scoops out of DST, rinse and repeat. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:18:28 - [215] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Can I sigh now....? no because Quote: the stupid cost to war dec the Goons gets right up my nose and was the main reason why we have blanket war decs from larger war dec entities. you just pulled that out of your arse. Bit smelly then, well a number of war dec players said that, because it was the only way they could afford these very large war dec fees. It also seems that some war dec entities are created around some very rich backers. I guess that came out of my arse too... dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. those are two different things that happend years apart from one another drac. Mass decking was happening before the watch list was removed. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 171	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:27:22 - [216] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Bit smelly then, well a number of war dec players said that, because it was the only way they could afford these very large war dec fees. It also seems that some war dec entities are created around some very rich backers. I guess that came out of my arse too... dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. those are two different things that happend years apart from one another drac. Mass decking was happening before the watch list was removed. Nobody is denying that mass deccing occurred before the watchlist changes, but there were other options. Now they're pretty much the only option, hence the use of the word "becomes". I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17371	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:27:27 - [217] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. those are two different things that happend years apart from one another drac. Mass decking was happening before the watch list was removed. no ****, read what i actually typed rather than what you want to dismiss =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2137	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:30:41 - [218] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. those are two different things that happend years apart from one another drac. Mass decking was happening before the watch list was removed. no ****, read what i actually typed rather than what you want to dismiss I disagree it was the main mode of operation before the watch list change and it happened because of the war dec fees being increased. That is my opinion, you have a different opinion. I was actually keeping a fairly close watch on war dec entities for the last 5 years because I was debating trying it out. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17843	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:31:04 - [219] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: There are certain reasons around the algorithm that decides what drops, meaning that it is often better for the ganker in terms of expensive items dropping if you use cans. Its more likely they will earn isk if you have a 50% drop rate on 100 items than just one.
Slayer Liberator Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 90	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:34:09 - [220] - Quote Bumblefck wrote: I don't want your stuff. Can I have your SP instead, please? Can you share?
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17843	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:34:38 - [221] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That's because it does not fit into a single DST, its fairly simple, alt scoops to DST, freighter pilots scoops out of DST, rinse and repeat. 1 million still does not go into 60k.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2146	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:36:09 - [222] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That's because it does not fit into a single DST, its fairly simple, alt scoops to DST, freighter pilots scoops out of DST, rinse and repeat. 1 million still does not go into 60k. And I repeat most people do not use them. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17843	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:38:06 - [223] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: And I repeat most people do not use them. Then thats their fault.
Jenn aSide Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore 14423	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:41:25 - [224] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. This is an example of "they didn't think it through". People have all sorts of ideas about stuff (even the DEVs), and they think it's a brilliant idea. Then that idea comes into contact with reality and does the exact opposite of what was intended. I remember the old pos based sov system everyone hated. Some of us predicted that Dominion's sov system would be a disaster, we were shouted down by the crowd that said "you just want to keep your advantages, you are scared of the idea of small entities being compettive in null sec!!". Result: The BLUE DONUT that was several times WORSE for small entities than the old sov. Those small group guys sure showed us....as they sold themselves into rental slavery just to stay in null sec LOL. Same with the Barge changes. "But more EHP will mean the gankers will have a harder time!!!" Result: WAY more ganking. "YEA! low slots for my Freighter! Eat it CODE" Result: "WTF you mean the ganked my empty freighter? WTF? They just don't get it. You cannot "legislate away" you enemies by lobbying CCP for changes. Enemies ADAPT and many times, the changes you think are going to help you end up SCREWING you. Hell, the 'bad guys' love a challenge.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 555	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:48:18 - [225] - Quote Yay! I'm finally with Jenn again! Agree with it entirely. You go girl! I also want to fully support the idea that lobbying CCP to change minor play points is problematic for the game. Miners and haulers have the capacity to defend themselves right now, avail yourself of those options and stop trying to maximize your ISK haul at the expense of the game itself. It's counter productive. HiSec is not intended to make ISK at the rate you can in Lo or Null. Put up with the occasional gank or fly with escort. Suck it up and play EVE. I'm with Ralph KG as well, they need to bring back some semblance of the watchlist to make Merc play style valid and do away with the mass War Decs. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 8563	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:52:12 - [226] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Doc Fury wrote: Dracvlad wrote: There are certain reasons around the algorithm that decides what drops, meaning that it is often better for the ganker in terms of expensive items dropping if you use cans. [Citation needed] Also still wondering how 1M cargo fits into a single DST, containers or no. Why? I am not giving that to you, do your own analysis. That's because it does not fit into a single DST, its fairly simple, alt scoops to DST, freighter pilots scoops out of DST, rinse and repeat. Gotcha. Your claim is simply anecdotal, or pulled from your nether region. While all this rinse-repeat (as you say) is going on, the DST is a valid and vulnerable target. The claim that "most don't use them [containers]" is also just another claim made without supporting evidence. This is no different than miners who don't tank or go AFK, they made a choice for better or worse. Gÿ+ The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper: 'Hodor'.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17843	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:54:21 - [227] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Yay! I'm finally with Jenn again! Agree with it entirely. You go girl! I also want to fully support the idea that lobbying CCP to change minor play points is problematic for the game. Miners and haulers have the capacity to defend themselves right now, avail yourself of those options and stop trying to maximize your ISK haul at the expense of the game itself. It's counter productive. HiSec is not intended to make ISK at the rate you can in Lo or Null. Put up with the occasional gank or fly with escort. Suck it up and play EVE. I'm with Ralph KG as well, they need to bring back some semblance of the watchlist to make Merc play style valid and do away with the mass War Decs. Ironically, ice miners had their best level of income back when ganking was a much bigger thing.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.12 16:54:40 - [228] - Quote Jenn aSide wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: dec fees increased , merc entities formed watchlist went away, mass-decking becomes the modus operandi. This is an example of "they didn't think it through". People have all sorts of ideas about stuff (even the DEVs), and they think it's a brilliant idea. Then that idea comes into contact with reality and does the exact opposite of what was intended. I remember the old pos based sov system everyone hated. Some of us predicted that Dominion's sov system would be a disaster, we were shouted down by the crowd that said "you just want to keep your advantages, you are scared of the idea of small entities being compettive in null sec!!". Result: The BLUE DONUT that was several times WORSE for small entities than the old sov. Those small group guys sure showed us....as they sold themselves into rental slavery just to stay in null sec LOL. Same with the Barge changes. "But more EHP will mean the gankers will have a harder time!!!" Result: WAY more ganking. "YEA! low slots for my Freighter! Eat it CODE" Result: "WTF you mean the ganked my empty freighter? WTF? They just don't get it. You cannot "legislate away" you enemies by lobbying CCP for changes. Enemies ADAPT and many times, the changes you think are going to help you end up SCREWING you. Hell, the 'bad guys' love a challenge. Starts off OK because the road to hell is paved with good intentions, generally tinkering with economics creates unforeseen consequences. Dominion was applied because people had the logistics nightmare of looking after POS's however the system before Dominion created some epic wars which were far better than what came afterwards. Barge changes, as normal completely misses the change to destroyer DPS which created the imbalance, typical Jenn, but in the end people now can chose tank over yield and there are still enough people around to gank going for yield. The balance is about right, only people moaning are gankers wanting to be able to easily gank every miner. Freighter low slots, I noticed a few people pushing that, made no difference to me at all at that point, they would still gank them, it was pretty evident to me. The gankers started ganking empty freighters when hyperdunking made them so rich it was silly. So when we talk about the consequences I have suggested I am pretty sure taht with Citadels they can get around them, just more skin in the game. The entire approach is to make it less of a cake walk for them and I have pointed out the areas that need adjustement, for me taht would pretty much sort it in my opinion, apart from the odd tweak afterwards. But Jenn of course misses it completely, just loves to say things like WTF and state the bleeding obvious missing key facts. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:02:29 - [229] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Yay! I'm finally with Jenn again! Agree with it entirely. You go girl! I also want to fully support the idea that lobbying CCP to change minor play points is problematic for the game. Miners and haulers have the capacity to defend themselves right now, avail yourself of those options and stop trying to maximize your ISK haul at the expense of the game itself. It's counter productive. HiSec is not intended to make ISK at the rate you can in Lo or Null. Put up with the occasional gank or fly with escort. Suck it up and play EVE. I'm with Ralph KG as well, they need to bring back some semblance of the watchlist to make Merc play style valid and do away with the mass War Decs. In terms of haulers, its checkmate with the Blackbird to point so the bumper can get on you, only way to get around that is gank the Blackbird, I don't have that number of accounts to do that and my friends don't play at the same time, result I sold the freighter. No point flogging a dead horse so I flogged it in another way. Mining, no problem for me, I jump in a Skiff and accept lower yield, but the gankers are whining about it being too tough. You cannot make ISK at the same rate as null, unless you do Incursions, but that is even more boring then doing level 4's. So mass war decs was not happening before the watch list change, pah!!!!! Total rubbish, I got a number of blanket war decs before the watch list changed. o7 When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26595	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:02:52 - [230] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Miners and haulers have the capacity to defend themselves right now, avail yourself of those options and stop trying to maximize your ISK haul at the expense of the game itself. It's counter productive. Some claim mining and hauling is boring, which is why they do it AFK; and then they scream like stuck pigs when somebody comes along and makes it less boring Quote: HiSec is not intended to make ISK at the rate you can in Lo or Null. Put up with the occasional gank or fly with escort. Suck it up and play EVE. Some would disagree, making it harder for others to enliven or interfere in their gameplay is CCPs responsibility, not theirs (this is sarcasm for the hard of reading) Quote: I'm with Ralph KG as well, they need to bring back some semblance of the watchlist to make Merc play style valid and do away with the mass War Decs. Unfortunately putting the genie back into the bottle is going to be nigh on impossible, the bottle is already full of the tears caused by blanket wardecs. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17376	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:08:29 - [231] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: But Jenn of course misses it completely, just loves to say things like WTF and state the bleeding obvious missing key facts. thats considerably better than dismissing them as " differing opinion" and spouting such misinterpreted half-truths as to have the cause and effect of two separate mechanic changes (4 yearsapart from one another) arse backward . =]\|[=
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17376	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:12:29 - [232] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Quote: I'm with Ralph KG as well, they need to bring back some semblance of the watchlist to make Merc play style valid and do away with the mass War Decs. Unfortunately putting the genie back into the bottle is going to be nigh on impossible, the bottle is already full of the tears caused by the increase in blanket wardecs. i dare say i know a couple of people who would gleefully rip those apart if they knew they wouldn't be replaced before the next downtime =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:24:12 - [233] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: But Jenn of course misses it completely, just loves to say things like WTF and state the bleeding obvious missing key facts. thats considerably better than dismissing them as " differing opinion" and spouting such misinterpreted half-truths as to have the cause and effect of two separate mechanic changes (4 yearsapart from one another) arse backward . The change in war dec fees was the start of a major change, also war dec entities wanted to get bigger to be more effective, so they needed content to shoot and the easy content was shooting idiot 0.0 players around the pipes and Hubs. This now cost a lot of ISK so caused a consolidation into bigger entities which had more people so created the need to mass war dec. The mass war decs were well established as the main way to operate before the watch list change. Mass war decs go back to the Orphanage which perfected it before the war dec fee changed. Initially the war dec fee caused an issue for them as their main prey was the 0.0 alliances. After that people came in to bank roll the war decs and certain entities then started to get into the swing of it, Marmite being one. Other war dec entities started to increase the war decs, looking at people moving through the pipes with freighters and Orcs and war decking them. That was my first war dec as Second-Dawn because a certain person saw me webbing an Orca with a Loki, I knew the person as a war decker and he passed me in local and then bang I had a ward dec, I laughed... You might say that was targeted, LOL... Of course after the watch list change it became the only way, but there was so many people doing mass war decs before the watch list change. So the change towards the larger entities happened before the watch list change. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17381	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:45:28 - [234] - Quote https://media.giphy.com/media/NHIecaiSc7YjK/giphy.gif =]\|[=
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1837	Posted - 2016.08.12 17:45:37 - [235] - Quote Sandy Point wrote: self-entitled garbage I don't have to show you anything, moron. Hisec is much more safe now then it used to be. This is an indisputable FACT. Deal with it. Or not, as the case may be. Used to be, you could avoid CONCORD after a gank. Used to be, you could fight CONCORD....and win. Now, you can't. So sorry, you don't win a copy of our crappy consolation prize, k'thanxbye. Moron. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Solecist Project 32031	Posted - 2016.08.12 18:11:34 - [236] - Quote Mike Adoulin wrote: Sandy Point wrote: self-entitled garbage I don't have to show you anything, moron. Hisec is much more safe now then it used to be. This is an indisputable FACT. Deal with it. Or not, as the case may be. Used to be, you could avoid CONCORD after a gank. Used to be, you could fight CONCORD....and win. Now, you can't. So sorry, you don't win a copy of our crappy consolation prize, k'thanxbye. Moron. And every time they nerfed us ... ... they nerfed unpredictabilities that could have happened. And one can not say a word ... ... without having all the self-entitled sesselfurzer coming out of their holes. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Solecist Project 32031	Posted - 2016.08.12 18:13:41 - [237] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: https://media.giphy.com/media/NHIecaiSc7YjK/giphy.gif This is a great gif. Made me laugh! Thanks! "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.12 19:17:25 - [238] - Quote Mike Adoulin wrote: Sandy Point wrote: self-entitled garbage I don't have to show you anything, moron. Hisec is much more safe now then it used to be. This is an indisputable FACT. Deal with it. Or not, as the case may be. Used to be, you could avoid CONCORD after a gank. Used to be, you could fight CONCORD....and win. Now, you can't. So sorry, you don't win a copy of our crappy consolation prize, k'thanxbye. Moron. Rubbish, you say hisec is safer because you cannot run away from CONCORD ROFL... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Mike Adoulin Adolescent Radioactive Pirate Hamsters 1838	Posted - 2016.08.12 19:23:46 - [239] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, you say hisec is safer because you cannot run away from CONCORD ROFL... It's safer, moron, because back when you could dodge CONCORD there was no guarantee you would lose your ship after the attack. So there was an element of risk, and people would attack you with ships that may not have been the most optimum. Nowadays, you know the ship is gone, so you plan for it. Or in the case of CODE, get reimbursed. Not very smart , are you? Nullbears, I swear. Everything in EVE is a trap. And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:) You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg. Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.12 19:40:22 - [240] - Quote Mike Adoulin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Rubbish, you say hisec is safer because you cannot run away from CONCORD ROFL... It's safer, moron, because back when you could dodge CONCORD there was no guarantee you would lose your ship after the attack. So there was an element of risk, and people would attack you with ships that may not have been the most optimum. Nowadays, you know the ship is gone, so you plan for it. Or in the case of CODE, get reimbursed. Not very smart , are you? Nullbears, I swear. So when exactly did this change to CONCORD take place? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 556	Posted - 2016.08.12 19:46:28 - [241] - Quote Faceroll is a WoWism that came from when Hunters were so OP a player actually remapped his entire keyboard to a macro that set the 'perfect' shooting rotation on a Boss target and he [literally rolled his face across the keyboard the whole fight and took top DPS doing it. I'm not sure if the video is the original version of the term or a demonstration of it. I don't know if anything in EVE that is 'faceroll' worthy. AFK mining is a reality but it's not the same thing as faceroll combat. The closest I can think of is the 'F1 monkey' term. I can't relate to that term because I'm busy as heck in a fight so it's far more than F1-F6 for me, it's a lot of clicking, tracking changes, etc. I'm probably inefficient but the flow works for me right now. Look guys, please don't let this devolve further than it has. Miners and haulers have valid play styles. CCP could do a lot more to make it more fun and entertaining for them. This would involve a change to the nature of mining and make it more active, like having asteroids that slowly reduce yield the closer it gets to 'zero' so you'd always be scanning and moving to the juiciest target. Same goes with hauling. You could have hauling drones, which would be nothing more than sensor drones with jump capabilities. You jump one ahead of you and keep one trailing behind you. This way you don't need an alt to clear the way, or make combat ones with AI so they could auto engage gankers bumping you without triggering Concord on you, but maybe they still show up and wipe out the drone. This way Concord has been effectively 'summoned' to wherever you are for the cost of a drone. Concord could charge the hauler a fee for 'disturbing the peace' and if the hauler does it a second time, they take a portion of the haul as a penalty eventually emptying the loot pinata making it less gank worthy but at least the hauler doesn't lose the ship. Even the gankers could change the nature of their play and say "Hey, we have you cold. Give us half your haul and we'll escort you the rest of the way to make sure you get there safe." The hauler loses some but not all, and keeps the ship. The gankers only get half if the ship is torched anyway, so it's about as close to a win-win as there is in EVE PvP. The point is there are a ton of ways to make the game more interesting all the way around without hurting any particular play style. If you are going to push for changes in EVE, make sure they have little to no impact on other play styles. No style is superior to another one. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Natural CloneKiller The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group 153	Posted - 2016.08.12 19:53:22 - [242] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Faceroll is a WoWism that came from when Hunters were so OP a player actually remapped his entire keyboard to a macro that set the 'perfect' shooting rotation on a Boss target and he [literally rolled his face across the keyboard the whole fight and took top DPS doing it. I'm not sure if the video is the original version of the term or a demonstration of it. I don't know if anything in EVE that is 'faceroll' worthy. AFK mining is a reality but it's not the same thing as faceroll combat. The closest I can think of is the 'F1 monkey' term. I can't relate to that term because I'm busy as heck in a fight so it's far more than F1-F6 for me, it's a lot of clicking, tracking changes, etc. I'm probably inefficient but the flow works for me right now. Look guys, please don't let this devolve further than it has. Miners and haulers have valid play styles. CCP could do a lot more to make it more fun and entertaining for them. This would involve a change to the nature of mining and make it more active, like having asteroids that slowly reduce yield the closer it gets to 'zero' so you'd always be scanning and moving to the juiciest target. Same goes with hauling. You could have hauling drones, which would be nothing more than sensor drones with jump capabilities. You jump one ahead of you and keep one trailing behind you. This way you don't need an alt to clear the way, or make combat ones with AI so they could auto engage gankers bumping you without triggering Concord on you, but maybe they still show up and wipe out the drone. This way Concord has been effectively 'summoned' to wherever you are for the cost of a drone. Concord could charge the hauler a fee for 'disturbing the peace' and if the hauler does it a second time, they take a portion of the haul as a penalty eventually emptying the loot pinata making it less gank worthy but at least the hauler doesn't lose the ship. Even the gankers could change the nature of their play and say "Hey, we have you cold. Give us half your haul and we'll escort you the rest of the way to make sure you get there safe." The hauler loses some but not all, and keeps the ship. The gankers only get half if the ship is torched anyway, so it's about as close to a win-win as there is in EVE PvP. The point is there are a ton of ways to make the game more interesting all the way around without hurting any particular play style. If you are going to push for changes in EVE, make sure they have little to no impact on other play styles. No style is superior to another one. M8ners and haulers do hire our services to escort or protect their assets.
Pandora Carrollon Kingsman Tailors 559	Posted - 2016.08.12 20:17:20 - [243] - Quote Natural CloneKiller wrote: M8ners and haulers do hire our services to escort or protect their assets. Yes, and that's perfectly fine and one of many things that could happen for protection. The miners (and admitted rare haulers) that come and pitch a fit here about how dangerous HiSec is are the ones that need to relax and start hiring your services. Be Positive GÇó Change yourself first, New Eden will come later GÇó EVE is Awesome GÇó CCP isn't the enemy GÇó Players are people too GÇó Where're the clothing blueprints GÇó Yeah, I'm still learning this game -- Pandora's Rules to EVE by
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 733	Posted - 2016.08.13 04:14:55 - [244] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: https://media.giphy.com/media/NHIecaiSc7YjK/giphy.gif This is a great gif. Made me laugh! Thanks! ****** Robot Girl is the best (along with Physics Girl): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3KEoMzNz8eYnwBC34RaKCQ
ISD Buldath ISD STAR 424	Posted - 2016.08.13 04:25:15 - [245] - Quote Quote: 5. Trolling is prohibited. Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote. I have removed the offending content, and those quoting it. I have also removed a few off topic remarks. *~ISD Buldath* Commander Support, Training and Resources Division Interstellar Services Department I do not respond to EVE-Mails regarding forum moderation.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 733	Posted - 2016.08.13 04:25:43 - [246] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: No point flogging a dead horse so I flogged it in another way Yes, but many of us wish you would just do that in private instead of all over the forum.
Solecist Project 32033	Posted - 2016.08.13 06:54:35 - [247] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: No point flogging a dead horse so I flogged it in another way Yes, but it would be better if you just do that in private instead of all over the forum. That would clash with his need to expose his ego and how knowledgable he is. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.13 08:19:55 - [248] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: No point flogging a dead horse so I flogged it in another way Yes, but it would be better if you just do that in private instead of all over the forum. That would clash with his need to expose his ego and how knowledgable he is. Flog means to sell something in the UK, obviously you are a Septic and do not understand such words going towards your own inadequacies instead. Surely you are talking about Jenn a'Snide..., he is so great he does not get his bling fitted Macherial ganked by CODE, I am in awe of such brilliance, especially when CODE don't gank mission boats in the main... That still has me chuckling every time I think about it... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Solecist Project 32034	Posted - 2016.08.13 08:21:53 - [249] - Quote You really just prove my point. If you weren't so easily baitable and predictable, you would have chuckled and skipped it... You and Jenn have a lot in common. :) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2148	Posted - 2016.08.13 08:25:18 - [250] - Quote Pandora Carrollon wrote: Natural CloneKiller wrote: M8ners and haulers do hire our services to escort or protect their assets. Yes, and that's perfectly fine and one of many things that could happen for protection. The miners (and admitted rare haulers) that come and pitch a fit here about how dangerous HiSec is are the ones that need to relax and start hiring your services. I think you will find this is a complete non-starter, first of all the price would be way above what miners and haulers could afford, secondly while I could see mercs jmping with a freighter and perhaps ganking the blackbird, I cannot see them sitting at a belt protecting a miner for hours on end. But Vendetta are a more serious merc group so I could be wrong in terms of them. Other mercs told me in no uncertain terms that due to the boring nature of convoy or guard duty that the price would be very high because they see themselves as hunter killers. In 0.0 there is not exactly a rush of people willing to protect mining ships by the way. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2149	Posted - 2016.08.13 08:48:11 - [251] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: You really just prove my point. If you weren't so easily baitable and predictable, you would have chuckled and skipped it... You and Jenn have a lot in common. :) Not so much, I only say what I have done in game when challenged, but that makes me the same as that other windbag, well if you say so. But in these forums one has to give as good as you get and I judged your comment as attacking me and not what I said on the subject matter, then you try to say its is me being childish for being humorous, though I did appreciate you calling a'Snide out like that. Anyway if people are rude and offensive to me I give it back. The top sentence in my reply was aimed at Shae who was being especially childish. EDIT: Point taken on your reply, sometimes I am a bit too combative, I will try to do better. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Solecist Project 32040	Posted - 2016.08.13 08:57:34 - [252] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Solecist Project wrote: You really just prove my point. If you weren't so easily baitable and predictable, you would have chuckled and skipped it... You and Jenn have a lot in common. :) Not so much, I only say what I have done in game when challenged, but that makes me the same as that other windbag, well if you say so. But in these forums one has to give as good as you get and I judged your comment as attacking me and not what I said on the subject matter, then you try to say its is me being childish for being humorous, though I did appreciate you calling a'Snide out like that. Anyway if people are rude and offensive to me I give it back. The top sentence in my reply was aimed at Shae who was being especially childish. Now you only need to realize when you're the one who starts being rude and all is well again. Yeah you do that. Anyhow, enough derailment. It's an old habit i need to get rid of. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 386	Posted - 2016.08.13 09:32:02 - [253] - Quote This thread needs a comforting hug. Badly... This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Tora Bushido EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective 3445	Posted - 2016.08.13 11:15:25 - [254] - Quote I never understood why someone would want to declare war on someone else..... terrible people! DELETE THE WEAK, ADAPT OR DIE ! Meta Gaming Level VII, Psycho Warfare Level X, Smack Talk Level VII.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 735	Posted - 2016.08.13 11:48:25 - [255] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: No point flogging a dead horse so I flogged it in another way Yes, but it would be better if you just do that in private instead of all over the forum. That would clash with his need to expose his ego and how knowledgable he is. ...obviously you ... do not understand such words going towards your own inadequacies instead. To react with like that suggests you knew the alternate meaning of what I quoted, which itself implies I understood what I wrote. As usual, you are self evidently wrong.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2150	Posted - 2016.08.13 12:00:02 - [256] - Quote Tora Bushido wrote: I never understood why someone would want to declare war on someone else..... terrible people! Or perhaps it is we never understand why people declare war on someone and don't do anything, silly people... Actually more important is people who fail to do any analysis of their prey before declaring war, so they then find absoultely nothing to shoot.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 387	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:34:18 - [257] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Tora Bushido wrote: I never understood why someone would want to declare war on someone else..... terrible people! Or perhaps it is we never understand why people declare war on someone and don't do anything, silly people... Actually more important is people who fail to do any analysis of their prey before declaring war, so they then find absoultely nothing to shoot.... Yeah I learned that the hard way. Make sure they are active before you declare war on a corp. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Bishop Bob Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde 20	Posted - 2016.08.13 22:49:50 - [258] - Quote Dave Day wrote: ....I think it would be a great idea if CCP allowed corps who have no interest in pvp to ...? Only if you don't get any of the advantages of playing against other players, so no market, mails, chat or contracts from anyone outside the community that wants to be excluded from PvP, either. You will have to do EVERYTHING yourself, you can't choose to get the benefits without the disadvantages,
Natural CloneKiller The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group 153	Posted - 2016.08.15 08:30:49 - [259] - Quote The day ccp stops people from going to war is the day we become worse than wow.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2165	Posted - 2016.08.15 09:15:59 - [260] - Quote Natural CloneKiller wrote: The day ccp stops people from going to war is the day we become worse than wow. That is just not going to happen, the mechanics are fairly good but need some adjustment, I have proposed some changes which would improve the situation a bit because in my vie wthe war dec mechanism is not that bad, its how the player base has evolved. 1. Work out something to limit the time that an entity can be war decked, perma war decs on small indy corps are just meh, I don't care about perma decks on 0.0 entities however. 2. Reduced the cost or war decks and get rid of this stupid amount on large alliances 3. Make it so that if a character joins another character owned corp the war follows them for 7 days after they have left the war decked corp. 4. Go with my idea on the OS for watch list functionality on a constellation, when operational it can be blown up. The idea is to give a target for the defender to hit that has real strategic value and put a bit more skin in the game for the attackers. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Natural CloneKiller The Phoenix Rising Vendetta Mercenary Group 154	Posted - 2016.08.15 09:41:21 - [261] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Natural CloneKiller wrote: The day ccp stops people from going to war is the day we become worse than wow. That is just not going to happen, the mechanics are fairly good but need some adjustment, I have proposed some changes which would improve the situation a bit because in my vie wthe war dec mechanism is not that bad, its how the player base has evolved. 1. Work out something to limit the time that an entity can be war decked, perma war decs on small indy corps are just meh, I don't care about perma decks on 0.0 entities however. 2. Reduced the cost or war decks and get rid of this stupid amount on large alliances 3. Make it so that if a character joins another character owned corp the war follows them for 7 days after they have left the war decked corp. 4. Go with my idea on the OS for watch list functionality on a constellation, when operational it can be blown up. The idea is to give a target for the defender to hit that has real strategic value and put a bit more skin in the game for the attackers. 1. Small indy corps can get help or they can learn how to fight back. This is eve and the beauty of eve is it is a pvp world weather you like it or not. To take that away takes the foundations out of the game. Yes there are ways to get rid of decs like dropping corp but the bottom line is no space is safe space. 2. Sure I'll go with that but I think the cost is about right. We spend billions each week on wars and there should be a cost to this. We need to make sure there is an income source to pay for this. 3. Agree. But hard to code I think as dropping into neutral corp first then joining would avoid that. 4. I like the new changes to the watch list. In my view get rid of local all together. Make it more realistic! Not sure of your idea but I'll have a read when I have more time.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2165	Posted - 2016.08.15 10:39:31 - [262] - Quote Natural CloneKiller wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Natural CloneKiller wrote: The day ccp stops people from going to war is the day we become worse than wow. That is just not going to happen, the mechanics are fairly good but need some adjustment, I have proposed some changes which would improve the situation a bit because in my vie wthe war dec mechanism is not that bad, its how the player base has evolved. 1. Work out something to limit the time that an entity can be war decked, perma war decs on small indy corps are just meh, I don't care about perma decks on 0.0 entities however. 2. Reduced the cost or war decks and get rid of this stupid amount on large alliances 3. Make it so that if a character joins another character owned corp the war follows them for 7 days after they have left the war decked corp. 4. Go with my idea on the OS for watch list functionality on a constellation, when operational it can be blown up. The idea is to give a target for the defender to hit that has real strategic value and put a bit more skin in the game for the attackers. 1. Small indy corps can get help or they can learn how to fight back. This is eve and the beauty of eve is it is a pvp world weather you like it or not. To take that away takes the foundations out of the game. Yes there are ways to get rid of decs like dropping corp but the bottom line is no space is safe space. 2. Sure I'll go with that but I think the cost is about right. We spend billions each week on wars and there should be a cost to this. We need to make sure there is an income source to pay for this. 3. Agree. But hard to code I think as dropping into neutral corp first then joining would avoid that. 4. I like the new changes to the watch list. In my view get rid of local all together. Make it more realistic! Not sure of your idea but I'll have a read when I have more time. Item 4. links to 1., you have to get a mentality to fight back, back into hisec, this is a suggestion to create something that those who want to shoot can at least cause some sort of impact from it, from that point maybe something will develop in terms of 1. But if it is chasing GTFO ships or meeting one of your bimg and neutral RR fleets they will not bother. But to keep that corp war decked is just going to kill them and make some leave the game, you cannot ignore that impact, though in truth I noted that the majority of your better kills are on 0.0 alliances. 2. The issue is that cost increase pushed it towards bigger entities and caused a stagnation. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 252	Posted - 2016.08.15 13:07:23 - [263] - Quote No. I can explain why, but its a waste of time. HTFU
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2169	Posted - 2016.08.15 13:46:47 - [264] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: No. I can explain why, but its a waste of time. Well that was most un-enlightening. Do you think it is not worth doing because hisec carebears are too far gone, do you think that limiting the number of people who you can blanket war dec and hope they go through the pipes will diminish your ability to get a few kills. In any case most of your meaningful kills are from 0.0 alliances. I will be pushing the OS structure with the CSM, because it is key intel which you should not get on a plate like it was before, but you have to earn it and it has to cost you something. CCP will be using an OS to give local data in 0.0, just so you are aware of where this is going. You want that intel you should have to defend the assets that give it to you. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17424	Posted - 2016.08.15 13:54:59 - [265] - Quote no because he can see going round and round the merry go round with you is a waste of time. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2169	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:02:51 - [266] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: no because he can see going round and round the merry go round with you is a waste of time. Well from my prespective this is because you lot like to run around without a care in the world blapping stuff, I bet part of the reason they don't like it is that they will end up with some red on the killboard and people can cause them some inconvenience back. Of course you don't like it, but you should not get free intel like the watch list without effort or risk. And the very act of doing this might develop a different attitude in hisec towards war decs. But easier to attack the messenger rather than the idea. CCP is using the same mechanicsm for local in null sec going forward and that is a good thing. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17426	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:23:46 - [267] - Quote well from anyone elses its because you are going to have whatever damn conversation you want, regardless of what any of us type. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2172	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:35:14 - [268] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: well from anyone elses its because you are going to have whatever damn conversation you want, regardless of what any of us type. That is because I am looking for feed back other than I don't like it as it is fail harden up you damn carebear, or I don't like you so I will suggest you are on meds type rubbish which is the norm for the Eve forums. In all the time I have floated this idea I have had not one single good reason why it is a bad idea, I even got some good feed back from Shae on making it less vulnerable which is why I suggested that it be vulnerable when active. So when you have finished your hard days mission baiting or roaming hunting you can send in an alt or use your main and turn the beauty off and it will be there for you the next day all safe and sound. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26600	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:43:17 - [269] - Quote What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target one particular type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all is disingenuous. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 743	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:54:58 - [270] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: In all the time I have floated this idea I have had not one single good reason why it is a bad idea, ... Bullshit.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17429	Posted - 2016.08.15 14:59:03 - [271] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. That is so pathetic So what this person who does not PvP is saying to you mighty mercs is that you are unable to baby sit an OS against the PvP might of the dreaded carebear, I did not know you were so bad at Eve. Lets give them watch list intel for free, lets give them locator intel free, lets tell them the fits that their enemies have and give them a warp in while we are at it, all for free after all they cannot be expected to put any effort in. sounds kinda like that afk flag for local you keep asking for dosent it eh. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2172	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:02:29 - [272] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. That is so pathetic So what this person who does not PvP is saying to you mighty mercs is that you are unable to baby sit an OS against the PvP might of the dreaded carebear, I did not know you were so bad at Eve. Lets give them watch list intel for free, lets give them locator intel free, lets tell them the fits that their enemies have and give them a warp in while we are at it, all for free after all they cannot be expected to put any effort in. sounds kinda like that afk flag for local you keep asking for dosent it eh. That is different, it is to make the AFK part less effective without destroying cloaks. Keep on topic, are you chaps really that bad and worried what a few rag tag indy carebears could do to your killboards with a slight splash of red on it. At least you will get a chance to shoot a few brave ones... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17430	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:07:19 - [273] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is different, no it isnt. =]\|[=
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 744	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:09:49 - [274] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is different, no it isnt. Exactly. Wants free Intel, but can't see the double standard. What a surprise.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2172	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:10:13 - [275] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is different, no it isnt. Well actually I was expecting to have to defend that little beauty, no free lunch for me, and Teckos bless his cotton socks was telling me it was too easy and did not cost enough, I bet he will have a different view on the watch list one for reasons... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2172	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:11:00 - [276] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is different, no it isnt. Exactly. Wants free Intel, but can't see the double standard. What a surprise. And you did the job for Teckos, glorious stuff... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17437	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:34:24 - [277] - Quote no i think discussing it further with you is though. =]\|[=
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26602	Posted - 2016.08.15 15:39:38 - [278] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is so pathetic How is it pathetic? Please do enlighten me. Mining and hauling can be done AFK, and they often are, if they are done AFK the people involved are being rewarded for putting in zero effort. I don't see proposals from yourself to make the reward for those activities consummate with the amount of effort put in by the players; the player driven rewards for not being AFK are a tad better in that you don't explode nearly as much, the mechanical rewards for not being AFK are pretty much the same as those for being AFK. Quote: So what this person who does not PvP That really bugs you doesn't it? Quote: is saying to you mighty mercs is that you are unable to baby sit an OS against the PvP might of the dreaded carebear, I did not know you were so bad at Eve. Nope I'm pointing out the hypocrisy in you demanding that mercs put in more effort to their gameplay while ignoring that the majority of the people they prey on rarely put any in at all. Quote: Lets give them watch list intel for free, lets give them locator intel free Locator intel has never been free, either in terms of isk or the standings required to use the agents. Quote: lets tell them the fits that their enemies have and give them a warp in while we are at it, all for free after all they cannot be expected to put any effort in. Did I suggest any of this? I think that you'll find the answer is a resounding no. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2174	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:03:24 - [279] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. Pathetic... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26603	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:18:32 - [280] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. Pathetic... Avoiding the question is commonly regarded as a logical fallacy. I asked you how my statement was pathetic, given your refusal to answer the question beyond restating that you think it to be pathetic I think that it's safe to say that you can't. Quelle surprise. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17438	Posted - 2016.08.15 17:33:31 - [281] - Quote lets play DracvlaaaaaaaAAAAAD BINGOOOOO! you have all been provided with one of these easy to reference bingo cards , first one to call bingo wins an unsuccessful-at-everything fit raptor. =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 127	Posted - 2016.08.15 18:21:17 - [282] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. That is so pathetic So what this person who does not PvP is saying to you mighty mercs is that you are unable to baby sit an OS against the PvP might of the dreaded carebear, I did not know you were so bad at Eve. Lets give them watch list intel for free, lets give them locator intel free, lets tell them the fits that their enemies have and give them a warp in while we are at it, all for free after all they cannot be expected to put any effort in. I think I had to get standings for the locator agent and there is a cost each time I use it and there is a delay between uses. So free is not accurate. It is hyperbole just as the rest of your statement.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 127	Posted - 2016.08.15 18:27:18 - [283] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Keep on topic, are you chaps really that bad and worried what a few rag tag indy carebears could do to your killboards with a slight splash of red on it. At least you will get a chance to shoot a few brave ones... And quit talking about killboards, I've played this game for 13 years and don't give a **** about killboards. Talk about staying on topic...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:17:37 - [284] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Keep on topic, are you chaps really that bad and worried what a few rag tag indy carebears could do to your killboards with a slight splash of red on it. At least you will get a chance to shoot a few brave ones... And quit talking about killboards, I've played this game for 13 years and don't give a **** about killboards. Talk about staying on topic... Are you a merc? What relevance do you and your attitude to your killboard have in terms of certain mercs kicking people who suffer a loss. This means that they are worried about having red in their killboard for some reasons.... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:18:25 - [285] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. That is so pathetic So what this person who does not PvP is saying to you mighty mercs is that you are unable to baby sit an OS against the PvP might of the dreaded carebear, I did not know you were so bad at Eve. Lets give them watch list intel for free, lets give them locator intel free, lets tell them the fits that their enemies have and give them a warp in while we are at it, all for free after all they cannot be expected to put any effort in. I think I had to get standings for the locator agent and there is a cost each time I use it and there is a delay between uses. So free is not accurate. It is hyperbole just as the rest of your statement. I have locator agents too, so what? When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:19:27 - [286] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Jonah Gravenstein wrote: What's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Proposals for people to put more effort into their game play are all well and good, except when those proposals target only one type of activity. Expecting the more PvP orientated to put more effort into gameplay that affects others, while refusing to acknowledge that their "victims" rarely put any effort in at all, is disingenuous. Pathetic... Avoiding the question is commonly regarded as a logical fallacy. I asked you how my statement was pathetic, given your refusal to answer the question beyond restating that you think it to be pathetic I think that it's safe to say that you can't. Quelle surprise. Still pathetic, you are saying mercs are not capable of defending an OS from indy carebears, didn't know you had such a low impression of them... And for Ralph, responding to people by linking stuff, really sad... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17441	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:29:09 - [287] - Quote No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. For instance, you brought up kb's not i. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:33:19 - [288] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17447	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:39:46 - [289] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... There you go again, From day 0 of this 5 1/2 month argument ive been advocating for locators to get a balance pass , I have never once asked for what you just said. =]\|[=
Valkin Mordirc 2354	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:48:15 - [290] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... Ralph has never asked for free watch list data. Never. He like many others in the Merc community have asked for Locator agents to get a rebalance. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 748	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:50:14 - [291] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... There you go again, From day 0 of this 5 1/2 month argument ive been advocating for locators to get a balance pass , I have never once asked for what you just said. He's just a liar, not worth responding to. His posts here are a good example of Herzog's 'toxic community' and one reason why the player numbers are lower.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17448	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:50:50 - [292] - Quote flicks imaginary lint from shoulder =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:51:04 - [293] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... There you go again, From day 0 of this 5 1/2 month argument ive been advocating for locators to get a balance pass , I have never once asked for what you just said. Locators would still be free data, a lot more free then what I proposed and will not enable some hisec players to become a bit more aggressive in how they deal with war decs and create a change in the current defeatist attitude. You are just interested in your own easy game play, like all the rest of the HTFU group. The reason I have suggested this is simply to give some way to effectively make an impact, I have seen your suggestion of going after the hub campers, do you seriously think that indy pilots who have limited PvP training and skill will catch an instra locking Svipul, seriously. I have seen some of these people from my time with AG, they have no idea at all. You know what they are doing but they do not. So if they keep failing with no result do you seriously think they will keep at it, nope. I think I misjudged you, I thought you had something more, but your recent move to one liners and linking smart ass pictures defines you as too set in your lazy ways and too fed up to even think about improving hisec in Eve. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 19:53:29 - [294] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... Ralph has never asked for free watch list data. Never. He like many others in the Merc community have asked for Locator agents to get a rebalance. That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17450	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:03:08 - [295] - Quote You sure you understand what "free" means? =]\|[=
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 132	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:05:19 - [296] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The reason I have suggested this is simply to give some way to effectively make an impact, I have seen your suggestion of going after the hub campers, do you seriously think that indy pilots who have limited PvP training and skill will catch an instra locking Svipul, seriously. I have seen some of these people from my time with AG, they have no idea at all. You know what they are doing but they do not. So if they keep failing with no result do you seriously think they will keep at it, nope. I think I misjudged you, I thought you had something more, but your recent move to one liners and linking smart ass pictures defines you as too set in your lazy ways and too fed up to even think about improving hisec in Eve. So, they can't play the game therefore the game should change? How does this make sense at all? What you call an improvement is nothing more than catering to someone who is lazy. Yes, lazy. If one doesn't want to learn something and forces it to change drastically to accommodate them then that is a perfect example of lazy - lazy and entitled.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 136	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:07:59 - [297] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. Yeah - free. Free after grinding for standings, flying to the agent (which aren't just all over the place by the way), paying the fee then getting one piece of information on one character then waiting a half hour for the next request. Free...time is worth a lot more than ISK.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 136	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:08:46 - [298] - Quote double post
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 389	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:09:07 - [299] - Quote I found it balanced since the people I declared war upon also had access to the watch list and locater agents just like I did. The only difference is I used them and they didn't. Whining happened and we lost the watch list. Locater agents don't tell you they are online. There are over 5000 star systems. Get the point? And to add a statement that doesn't help the argument...I think Japanese women are hawt. Thank you. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:23:25 - [300] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: I found it balanced since the people I declared war upon also had access to the watch list and locater agents just like I did. The only difference is I used them and they didn't. Whining happened and we lost the watch list. Locater agents don't tell you they are online. There are over 5000 star systems. Get the point? And to add a statement that doesn't help the argument...I think Japanese women are hawt. Thank you. Well I am bored talking to the other lot. i used the watch list for keeping tabs on war dec characters and Black Ops pilots, I sometimes used locator agents to check for certain players but as I have not at this point really gone after someone I only did so out of curiosity. The whining did not come from me and hisec players, it came from Super and Titan pilots, it was due to the break this put on the use of those ships. It had a much improved affect on those ships at this point. In terms of the impact in hisec it means that people have to put more effort in in terms of hunting people, you also have to do more work in working out your prey before hand. Is that too hard, then are you really a hunter killer? 5,000 systems means jack, most people have bases in a few areas, as I said target selection, not lazy blanket decs and then hunting, you have to work for it. Just too many lazy people... Since the watch list changes I find it rather amusing just going about my busines sin the last war dec knowing that as long as I kept away from the pipes, hubs and main mission hubs I was safe. I set up for a visit, as I use my main on the forums some people might get annoyed enough to have a go, but only one tried and it was fairly easy to deal with. If some of you want easy to locate combat go play a FPS... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:48:59 - [301] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. Yeah - free. Free after grinding for standings, flying to the agent (which aren't just all over the place by the way), paying the fee then getting one piece of information on one character then waiting a half hour for the next request. Free...time is worth a lot more than ISK. Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 391	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:52:20 - [302] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: I found it balanced since the people I declared war upon also had access to the watch list and locater agents just like I did. The only difference is I used them and they didn't. Whining happened and we lost the watch list. Locater agents don't tell you they are online. There are over 5000 star systems. Get the point? And to add a statement that doesn't help the argument...I think Japanese women are hawt. Thank you. Well I am bored talking to the other lot. i used the watch list for keeping tabs on war dec characters and Black Ops pilots, I sometimes used locator agents to check for certain players but as I have not at this point really gone after someone I only did so out of curiosity. The whining did not come from me and hisec players, it came from Super and Titan pilots, it was due to the break this put on the use of those ships. It had a much improved affect on those ships at this point. In terms of the impact in hisec it means that people have to put more effort in in terms of hunting people, you also have to do more work in working out your prey before hand. Is that too hard, then are you really a hunter killer? 5,000 systems means jack, most people have bases in a few areas, as I said target selection, not lazy blanket decs and then hunting in some sort of flowery way, you have to work for it. Just too many lazy people... Since the watch list changes I find it rather amusing just going about my business in the last war dec knowing that as long as I kept away from the pipes, hubs and main mission hubs I was safe. I set up for a visit, as I use my main on the forums some people might get annoyed enough to have a go, but only one tried and it was fairly easy to deal with. If some of you want easy to locate combat go play a FPS... The most detrimental thing to occur with the removal of the watch list was the highsec mercs stop being highsec mercs and became massive wardec alliances to keep their pilots happy. But in turn, that has the highsec carebear population up in a roar, not really understanding what is going on and why they are being targeted so often. Case in point, I have a pilot that I have taken under my wing. He is relatively new and is enjoying the industrial side with manufacturing and mining with the occasional mission run here and there. He is in a small corporation (8-12 pilots total...maybe 5-7 active pilots) and they had no issues with wardecs. Within the space of four days, three of the highsec merc alliances had declared war on them. Now, to show your point, he never saw one since he lived and operated out of the way of where they were active but a couple of their pilots had got caught by them, since they needed to head to certain areas. Basically what you are insinuating is that if you stay in your own pocket and don't come out, you are safe. That is not Eve, sir. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 391	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:53:22 - [303] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. Yeah - free. Free after grinding for standings, flying to the agent (which aren't just all over the place by the way), paying the fee then getting one piece of information on one character then waiting a half hour for the next request. Free...time is worth a lot more than ISK. Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. And your target can do the same in locating you. They got free intel too but just chose not to. So if you use it and they don't, then it is bad? This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17867	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:54:50 - [304] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. Info that is out of date 1 minute after getting it.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26606	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:57:10 - [305] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Still pathetic, you are saying mercs are not capable of defending an OS from indy carebears, didn't know you had such a low impression of them... Nowhere did I say, or even suggest, that mercs are not capable of defending a structure; because I know better. Anything of the kind that you read into my statement is down to your own biases and an obvious dislike for myself and my posting; your dislike of myself being an example of a genetic fallacy* That you think that the more PvP orientated players in hisec should have to put more effort into their gameplay is not disputable. That many of the "victims" of the more PvP orientated players in hisec rarely put in any effort at all into not being an easy target is not disputable. Suggesting that one of the above groups should put in more effort while ignoring that the other group rarely puts in any at all is hypocrisy. Telling how it is isn't pathetic, your response to it on the other hand... While we're at it, your definition of free is wrong. In the context of what we're talking about, free means to receive something without compensation, charge or payment; that is clearly not the case, nor has it ever been. *crosses one off the bingo card. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 391	Posted - 2016.08.15 20:58:25 - [306] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. Info that is out of date 1 minute after getting it. The one thing I never found out is the information you get back...when that info comes back, is it fresh intel or from when you initiated the search a few minutes earlier? This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:00:18 - [307] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: I found it balanced since the people I declared war upon also had access to the watch list and locater agents just like I did. The only difference is I used them and they didn't. Whining happened and we lost the watch list. Locater agents don't tell you they are online. There are over 5000 star systems. Get the point? And to add a statement that doesn't help the argument...I think Japanese women are hawt. Thank you. Well I am bored talking to the other lot. i used the watch list for keeping tabs on war dec characters and Black Ops pilots, I sometimes used locator agents to check for certain players but as I have not at this point really gone after someone I only did so out of curiosity. The whining did not come from me and hisec players, it came from Super and Titan pilots, it was due to the break this put on the use of those ships. It had a much improved affect on those ships at this point. In terms of the impact in hisec it means that people have to put more effort in in terms of hunting people, you also have to do more work in working out your prey before hand. Is that too hard, then are you really a hunter killer? 5,000 systems means jack, most people have bases in a few areas, as I said target selection, not lazy blanket decs and then hunting in some sort of flowery way, you have to work for it. Just too many lazy people... Since the watch list changes I find it rather amusing just going about my business in the last war dec knowing that as long as I kept away from the pipes, hubs and main mission hubs I was safe. I set up for a visit, as I use my main on the forums some people might get annoyed enough to have a go, but only one tried and it was fairly easy to deal with. If some of you want easy to locate combat go play a FPS... The most detrimental thing to occur with the removal of the watch list was the highsec mercs stop being highsec mercs and became massive wardec alliances to keep their pilots happy. But in turn, that has the highsec carebear population up in a roar, not really understanding what is going on and why they are being targeted so often. Case in point, I have a pilot that I have taken under my wing. He is relatively new and is enjoying the industrial side with manufacturing and mining with the occasional mission run here and there. He is in a small corporation (8-12 pilots total...maybe 5-7 active pilots) and they had no issues with wardecs. Within the space of four days, three of the highsec merc alliances had declared war on them. Now, to show your point, he never saw one since he lived and operated out of the way of where they were active but a couple of their pilots had got caught by them, since they needed to head to certain areas. Basically what you are insinuating is that if you stay in your own pocket and don't come out, you are safe. That is not Eve, sir. They were already largely doing hub camping before that, come on be serious. One of them was likely seen hauling along the pipes, happened to me in Feb 2015, I was webbing my alts Orca near Osmon when I was doing SOE missions. What is Eve throwing your T1 frigate at a mercs Proteus? Yay for cannon fodder and easy kills in the pipes... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 139	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:00:30 - [308] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. Yeah - free. Free after grinding for standings, flying to the agent (which aren't just all over the place by the way), paying the fee then getting one piece of information on one character then waiting a half hour for the next request. Free...time is worth a lot more than ISK. Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. It takes time, effort and payment. There is nothing the other player can do to counter it. However it is far from perfect information as well. There is no guarantee that the person will be at the given location once you get there. So someone will spend more time going to the location only to find their target gone. Time and effort are the price for this tool. As to a counter, does everything in this game have a counter? No. If a target docks up or logs off during the war I paid for how do I counter this? There is no mechanic for me to force an undock or log in. The simple fact is that it is not free and no valid argument can be made that is.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17452	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:01:30 - [309] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. Yeah - free. Free after grinding for standings, flying to the agent (which aren't just all over the place by the way), paying the fee then getting one piece of information on one character then waiting a half hour for the next request. Free...time is worth a lot more than ISK. Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. Intell with no counter does not equal free. Free intell is something like local, or the overview The term you are looking for is intell. =]\|[=
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17870	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:02:54 - [310] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: The one thing I never found out is the information you get back...when that info comes back, is it fresh intel or from when you initiated the search a few minutes earlier? Fresh, however it matters little when the target is in a speed fitted blockade runner 23 jumps away. By the time you get there the target will be halfway across the galaxy. The big problem is that you no longer have any idea if the person is logged on or not so you could be spending hours hunting down someone not even logged in.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 392	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:05:18 - [311] - Quote Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2177	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:05:22 - [312] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Free intel, you went and asked someone for it and paid a little bit of ISK, nothing that the other person can do to prevent this, there is no counter, sorry it is free intel. Info that is out of date 1 minute after getting it. Narrows down the search a bit, but where is the counter? I will tell you, its to just take your main characters and leave them in a WH for a week or two or three or four, its really amusing... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17870	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:08:39 - [313] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Narrows down the search a bit, but where is the counter? Doesn't need a counter, its balanced by the fact that by the time you act on the info its out of date.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 139	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:10:12 - [314] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. Too much effort and chance of being proven wrong it will never happen.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 392	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:14:01 - [315] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. Too much effort and chance of being proven wrong it will never happen. I won't even actively hunt him at all. I will be the young fawn bounding through the forest. I won't even fly a combat ship that whole week. To him, it should be easy... Piece of cake, right? This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17453	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:16:01 - [316] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. Too much effort and chance of being proven wrong it will never happen. Oh but it did happen, the op in that thread was mouthing off on the topic and was told to **** off an try it, which he did rather suprisingly. =]\|[=
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26607	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:22:34 - [317] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. Fat chance of that happening, he won't even come after me, a self declared bear that actively avoids being directly involved in non NPC ship explosions. Admittedly my offer for him to prove his worth definitely involved a trap of some description Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2178	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:25:33 - [318] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. That is exactly the type of attitude that is rather silly, so I have to play how you play, no way, I get to know who I want to kill, study their movements understand their routines, get to know when they log in what their patterns are etc., I am so used to doing this in NPC 0.0. Your approach sucks, first of all if I did this in hisec I would really get to know you before I war decked you. I wouldn't be in the dark about the person I was going after. To be blunt I am not going to start up my spy account for you. The thing is that these people have chosen to be merc's and run around blanket decking multiple targets without doing any leg work before handand want to walk up to them and blap them, its like playing in a FPS for them. Its because they are fail easy kill merchants which is why they all go off and do blanket war decs when it gets a bit more challenging.. You fail challenge is a fail challenge, and actually proves my point, I for one would not war dec on your basis. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2178	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:36:10 - [319] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Narrows down the search a bit, but where is the counter? Doesn't need a counter, its balanced by the fact that by the time you act on the info its out of date. Typical bull, if you had done your homework before hand you would know where he was likely to be and would use your locator alt to narrow down his exact location, in other words you would be poised to go after him. This is easy stuff for anyone with a brain. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17871	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:39:25 - [320] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Narrows down the search a bit, but where is the counter? Doesn't need a counter, its balanced by the fact that by the time you act on the info its out of date. Typical bull, if yu had done your homework before hand you would know where he was likely to be and would use your locator alt to narrow down his exact location, in other words you would be poised to go after him. This is easy stuff for anyone with a brain. Ok, come find me.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 748	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:41:06 - [321] - Quote Warning to anyone just arriving in the thread: Drac is a complete wet wipe right now. We seem to have put him on tilt and he isnt handling it very well.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2178	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:47:50 - [322] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Narrows down the search a bit, but where is the counter? Doesn't need a counter, its balanced by the fact that by the time you act on the info its out of date. Typical bull, if yu had done your homework before hand you would know where he was likely to be and would use your locator alt to narrow down his exact location, in other words you would be poised to go after him. This is easy stuff for anyone with a brain. Ok, come find me. Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17873	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:52:00 - [323] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please... They did. Now, how about you backing up your BS for once? Come find me.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2178	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:57:51 - [324] - Quote I am off for some shut eye, but this challenge is part of the issue of watch lists and the easy entitlement it gave you. Before you did not have to do much work, you just added to watch list and you knew they were on line, you saw them on line and asked your locator agent to find where. You might have an idea where he was operating from a quick look but you did no preparation. That is your issue, you are so set in terms of your reliance on free intel you cannot shift into another level. I had already read that thread that Ralph refers to, I laughed at the time because for me it proved nothing, because he did not really get to know his target, his was playing at it. What I did in NPC 0.0 was really get to know them and if I was to go after someone in hisec I would play by my approach of doing my homework and not your approach based on the quick fix of locator agents and watch list. So I will repeat it, if you do not prepare the ground you will fail. And here is another reason why I would not do your challenge, the key aspect is to find something that matters to the other party, something that makes them vulnerable, if I did not find that point of weakness I would not bother to war dec. This is supposed to be a thinking game not a FPS. So your target selection is your issue at this point, as is your failure to put effort in to get around the loss of the watch list. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 748	Posted - 2016.08.15 21:59:32 - [325] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please... They did. Now, how about you backing up your BS for once? Come find me. He can't back it up because he isn't able to. One little innocent comment by Ralph about Drac's AFK flag, free Intel proposal and Drac is having a meltdown, ranting at everyone. He has no ability to back any of it up.
Lex Gabinia Res Repetundae 140	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:16:35 - [326] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: This is supposed to be a thinking game not a FPS. So you admit the miners and haulers who complain about ganking should do a bit of thinking then? I didn't think so.
Morgan Agrivar TriStar Market Solutions 395	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:30:02 - [327] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. That is exactly the type of attitude that is rather silly, so I have to play how you play, no way, I get to know who I want to kill, study their movements understand their routines, get to know when they log in what their patterns are etc., I am so used to doing this in NPC 0.0. Your approach sucks, first of all if I did this in hisec I would really get to know you before I war decked you. I wouldn't be in the dark about the person I was going after. To be blunt I am not going to start up my spy account for you. The thing is that these people have chosen to be merc's and run around blanket decking multiple targets without doing any leg work before hand and want to walk up to them and blap them, its like playing in a FPS for them. Its because they are fail easy kill merchants which is why they all go off and do blanket war decs when it gets a bit more challenging.. You fail challenge is a fail challenge, and actually proves my point, I for one would not war dec on your basis. Fair enough, then quit complaining. And 0.0 is nothing like highsec. Cannot compare the two at all. Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution. This would cure me of the fear... CCP Explorer liked you forum post. Now my life is complete...
Wanda Fayne 262	Posted - 2016.08.15 22:52:47 - [328] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution. QFT your comments just confirms this whole idea is totally pathetic -Lan Wang-
Valkin Mordirc 2354	Posted - 2016.08.15 23:25:17 - [329] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... Ralph has never asked for free watch list data. Never. He like many others in the Merc community have asked for Locator agents to get a rebalance. That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. 250k plus 5min delay, the price/time scales down if the target is in region and further down if he is in the consolation, Plus travel time to located system. If the target you located is traveling it's completely worthless if he is mining or missioning it's entirely possible for the missioner to finish his mission on dock up with in the 5min period plus travel time. 30min cool down time for Level 4. Let me break it down, You have One person plus a scout hunting Leroy. You place a locator agent, 5 mins 250k later you get the system name, and no station meaning he is in space. You have travel to the system which we will say is another 5mins of travel time away. When you get to the system, you see Leroy is in system via local (Free intel), Your OOC scout, FIRST needs to check the stations, doesn't matter if there is a Mission Agent in system, you need to be sure that you know he is still out in space. You can bypass this by sending him a duel invite (Free Intel), but this will possibly spook your target, after verifying that he is space, you then check his Killboard (Free Intel) to see what he fly's and if you can narrow down what to look for. He like Caldari so you begin looking for anything Caldari related. Scan time, plus verifying if he is docked, may cause you sitting on this one person for, let's say, 20mins. A lot of work going into finding this one particular person. If you are in a missioning system, Like any of the SOE mission hubs, you have a lot of ships to go through, if not your in luck. Eventually you find a Leroy in a Raven. If your lucky you call in a friend to come in an interceptor to get tackle, if not you better hope that he's near by a gate. No interceptor pilot means you need to be in a fast warping ship yourself, normally a T3 with a warp speed Sub and Rigs. Making you more venerable as your ship is now two roles rather then one. And all that before you even press F1. Locator agents are not easy mode. They didn't need to be pushed aside. They generated Content. Finding a Corps HQ is a lot easier, making it easier one the defending corp to mount a possible defense as well. Compared to now, were you roam randomly hoping to find someone, check mission hubs periodically and sit on pipeline and hubs catching the stupid, Locators are not free. EDIT: Also whats with the whine that Ralph got some likes? Like serious? Likes are nothing I can run over to the Get Likes thread and boost my self up by 500 or more in a week and that doesn't mean anything. Just some people agree with him and sent that recognition in via a little button. I can log my other accounts onto the forum and boost myself up. 12 likes per post baby. Just because someone's post get's a like doesn't mean anything of value to someone else. Maybe because you see likes as a, "I find this post agreeable/funny" why does it bother you? That some people may disagree with you? That someone might have a different opinion that you and that is upsetting somehow? `#DeleteTheWeak`
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2183	Posted - 2016.08.16 05:35:13 - [330] - Quote Morgan Agrivar wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Morgan Agrivar wrote: Ok Dracvlad, have you done highsec wars before and after the change to the watch list? I don't think you have. But let us do an experiment. I want you to wardec my corporation (my newbro will be just fine) and I want you to actively hunt me down. I am being completely serious about this... I want you to experience the frustration of hunting ghosts, not knowing if I am even online or not while you fly through the 5000+ starsystems trying to locate me. Once you spend a week trying (if you haven't quit Eve before then) to locate me and blow me up, then come back to this thread and tell us how you felt about it. Seriously, wardec my corp and actually try it out. That is exactly the type of attitude that is rather silly, so I have to play how you play, no way, I get to know who I want to kill, study their movements understand their routines, get to know when they log in what their patterns are etc., I am so used to doing this in NPC 0.0. Your approach sucks, first of all if I did this in hisec I would really get to know you before I war decked you. I wouldn't be in the dark about the person I was going after. To be blunt I am not going to start up my spy account for you. The thing is that these people have chosen to be merc's and run around blanket decking multiple targets without doing any leg work before hand and want to walk up to them and blap them, its like playing in a FPS for them. Its because they are fail easy kill merchants which is why they all go off and do blanket war decs when it gets a bit more challenging.. You fail challenge is a fail challenge, and actually proves my point, I for one would not war dec on your basis. Fair enough, then quit complaining. And 0.0 is nothing like highsec. Cannot compare the two at all. Don't be part of the problem, be part of the solution. That is where you are utterly wrong, you are hunting people in other systems doing Sansha missions for a start, catching them in gates probing them down, the only difference is the lack of game mechanics around aggro, when you are hunting someone its exactly the same but more difficult because as soon as I show my face in local they are on guard, which is not the same in hisec, so my scouts can get closer in hisec. And I am not complaining Ralph and you are, I think expecting to find people like you do in a FPS is rather lame. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2183	Posted - 2016.08.16 05:53:30 - [331] - Quote Lex Gabinia wrote: Dracvlad wrote: This is supposed to be a thinking game not a FPS. So you admit the miners and haulers who complain about ganking should do a bit of thinking then? I didn't think so. Some yes, for example those that use the pipes, trade hubs and main mission hubs as if there was no war dec are obviously not thinking. What they have to do is to have a fall back plan on how to operate if they have a war dec. You obviously migth not have noticed that I accept that there should be a war dec system in hisec, the only issue I have is the over fishing of indy players by senseless war decs and my attitude is to try to restrict taht in some way, the exact mechanism is a bit hard to pin down. In truth I would lkely link it to having something in space. In terms of ganking it is less obvious, because someone with a single account is so much more vulnerable and even two accounts is not great, because in terms of a freighter that gives you a webber who has to double up as a scout. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Nitshe Razvedka 1134	Posted - 2016.08.16 05:58:08 - [332] - Quote Maybe a quota system. Simular to fishing limited stock. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2188	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:00:07 - [333] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please... They did. Now, how about you backing up your BS for once? Come find me. OK now that is because of what, your ganking activities so someone paid them to war dec you and they of course had little hope of getting you. The trick in this game is to know what you can and cannot do and not try something that is impossible. The person who may have paid for a war dec against you would have been silly in my book. I for one know it would be very unlikely to have any impact on you whatsoever. I would not war dec PL to go after you period. Now if you were operating nearly all the time near me then that would be different. I did at one time do a locator agent on you to find you location for interest and you were in Deklin at that point.. I know that you are not the alt of Warr Akkini or Endie, but have not managed to get more than that. You are as far as I am concerned are fairly untouchable. Which is why you comment is silly. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 755	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:02:34 - [334] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: In terms of ganking it is less obvious, because someone with a single account is so much more vulnerable and even two accounts is not great, because in terms of a freighter that gives you a webber who has to double up as a scout. Two accounts is fine if you want the convenience of planning your own schedule. If flying a JF, a cyno can also be good, but 2 accounts for a Freighter is enough.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2190	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:16:16 - [335] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: No im done responding to your arguments, im just entertaining myself at this point. I may as well given that you rearly if ever respond to what i type, rather whatever you would rather dismiss. Well sadly you seem to have decided that the only thing you want is the totally free watch list data just like it was before. Bit disappointing that... Ralph has never asked for free watch list data. Never. He like many others in the Merc community have asked for Locator agents to get a rebalance. That is free data, so locators will tell you so and so is in this station and he is online, cost you about 300k from memory or something small like that, yeah free data. No way to interdict it, nothing just the same lazy hunting as before. Even the mercs I thought had something about them turn out to be little better than the hub humpers. 250k plus 5min delay, the price/time scales down if the target is in region and further down if he is in the consolation, Plus travel time to located system. If the target you located is traveling it's completely worthless if he is mining or missioning it's entirely possible for the missioner to finish his mission on dock up with in the 5min period plus travel time. 30min cool down time for Level 4. Let me break it down, You have One person plus a scout hunting Leroy. You place a locator agent, 5 mins 250k later you get the system name, and no station meaning he is in space. You have travel to the system which we will say is another 5mins of travel time away. When you get to the system, you see Leroy is in system via local (Free intel), Your OOC scout, FIRST needs to check the stations, doesn't matter if there is a Mission Agent in system, you need to be sure that you know he is still out in space. You can bypass this by sending him a duel invite (Free Intel), but this will possibly spook your target, after verifying that he is space, you then check his Killboard (Free Intel) to see what he fly's and if you can narrow down what to look for. He like Caldari so you begin looking for anything Caldari related. Scan time, plus verifying if he is docked, may cause you sitting on this one person for, let's say, 20mins. A lot of work going into finding this one particular person. If you are in a missioning system, Like any of the SOE mission hubs, you have a lot of ships to go through, if not your in luck. Eventually you find a Leroy in a Raven. If your lucky you call in a friend to come in an interceptor to get tackle, if not you better hope that he's near by a gate. No interceptor pilot means you need to be in a fast warping ship yourself, normally a T3 with a warp speed Sub and Rigs. Making you more venerable as your ship is now two roles rather then one. And all that before you even press F1. Locator agents are not easy mode. They didn't need to be pushed aside. They generated Content. Finding a Corps HQ is a lot easier, making it easier one the defending corp to mount a possible defense as well. Compared to now, were you roam randomly hoping to find someone, check mission hubs periodically and sit on pipeline and hubs catching the stupid, Locators are not free. EDIT: Also whats with the whine that Ralph got some likes? Like serious? Likes are nothing I can run over to the Get Likes thread and boost my self up by 500 or more in a week and that doesn't mean anything. Just some people agree with him and sent that recognition in via a little button. I can log my other accounts onto the forum and boost myself up. 12 likes per post baby. Just because someone's post get's a like doesn't mean anything of value to someone else. Maybe because you see likes as a, "I find this post agreeable/funny" why does it bother you? That some people may disagree with you? That someone might have a different opinion that you and that is upsetting somehow? Let me start with your edit, the 3 likes I referred to were on another person, I found it funny that people were stupid enough to like it when that person just proved my point, was delicious. Locators are as good as free, 250k, so what that is chicken shite and there is no counter, see that word, personally I think locator agents are lame too, I would remove them as well, plus all the data on the map too. This is not a FPS. From my perspective you are doing all the work during the war dec that I would have done before, you have been conditioned to be lazy by the use of the watch list and locator agents. In fact gathering data on hisec targets is really easy as compared tp doing it in null sec. We used to go after mission runners, the basic principal is the same however they get nervous with anyone in local and act differently whereas in hisec they are easier to observe. You want locator agents to say if they are online or not too and where is the counter for that, it is free intel in te sense that you did not have to go out of you way to gather that data, you just ask and its given to you on a plate for some ISK, its not at all like what I proposed which is a skynet type system of OS which can be countered by someone with a bit more to them. What you are talking about is not hunter killing, its just killing with a little bit of effort, my efforts in NPC 0.0 were more nuanced, I had to condition them to think I was harmless, in the end they got wise to me because we got kills and the kills dried up because they stopped. But what you describe applies to us too in our efforts hunting in NPC 0.0, the most important thing was not to spook them. I used to do the intel gathering and setting up for others to get the kills, which is why I said I would simply not operate as you lot do and why this challenge is stupid. All it does is prove just how reliant on the watch list you were When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2190	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:18:29 - [336] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: In terms of ganking it is less obvious, because someone with a single account is so much more vulnerable and even two accounts is not great, because in terms of a freighter that gives you a webber who has to double up as a scout. Two accounts is fine if you want the convenience of planning your own schedule. If flying a JF, a cyno can also be good, but 2 accounts for a Freighter is enough. The risk is manage to a very low level, just by having a webbing alt. No it is not enough, I sold my freighter because it was evident to me that it was not enough to operate the freighter at an acceptable level of risk and reward. And the webber alt can be countered easily... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 755	Posted - 2016.08.16 06:24:26 - [337] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: In terms of ganking it is less obvious, because someone with a single account is so much more vulnerable and even two accounts is not great, because in terms of a freighter that gives you a webber who has to double up as a scout. Two accounts is fine if you want the convenience of planning your own schedule. If flying a JF, a cyno can also be good, but 2 accounts for a Freighter is enough. The risk is manage to a very low level, just by having a webbing alt. No it is not enough, I sold my freighter because it was evident to me that it was not enough to operate the freighter at an acceptable level of risk and reward. And the webber alt can be countered easily... Webbers are not easy to counter and suicide blackbirds are almost non-existent compared to the number of freighter movements. The risk is extremely low. Easy to prove.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2192	Posted - 2016.08.16 07:17:58 - [338] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Maybe a quota system. Simular to fishing limited stock. Maybe would have to be that. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2194	Posted - 2016.08.16 08:22:35 - [339] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: In terms of ganking it is less obvious, because someone with a single account is so much more vulnerable and even two accounts is not great, because in terms of a freighter that gives you a webber who has to double up as a scout. Two accounts is fine if you want the convenience of planning your own schedule. If flying a JF, a cyno can also be good, but 2 accounts for a Freighter is enough. The risk is manage to a very low level, just by having a webbing alt. No it is not enough, I sold my freighter because it was evident to me that it was not enough to operate the freighter at an acceptable level of risk and reward. And the webber alt can be countered easily... You sold your freighter because you aren't good at estimating risk. Webbers are not easy to counter and suicide blackbirds are almost non-existent compared to the number of freighter movements. The risk posed by a webbing counter is extremely low and it's trivial to prove that's the case. I am very good at estimating risk. The key thing is when I have no way to counter that is game over, so instead of using a freighter I use DST's. Perfectly fine on risk control there... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 756	Posted - 2016.08.16 08:40:20 - [340] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: ...I sold my freighter because it was evident to me that it was not enough to operate the freighter at an acceptable level of risk and reward. And the webber alt can be countered easily... You sold your freighter because you aren't good at estimating risk. Webbers are not easy to counter and suicide blackbirds are almost non-existent compared to the number of freighter movements. The risk posed by a webbing counter is extremely low and it's trivial to prove that's the case. I am very good at estimating risk. Clearly not. Quote: The key thing is when I have no way to counter that is game over, so instead of using a freighter I use DST's. Perfectly fine on risk control there... No way to counter? Rubbish.
Solecist Project 32126	Posted - 2016.08.16 08:49:17 - [341] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Dracvlad wrote: ...I sold my freighter because it was evident to me that it was not enough to operate the freighter at an acceptable level of risk and reward. And the webber alt can be countered easily... You sold your freighter because you aren't good at estimating risk. Webbers are not easy to counter and suicide blackbirds are almost non-existent compared to the number of freighter movements. The risk posed by a webbing counter is extremely low and it's trivial to prove that's the case. I am very good at estimating risk. Clearly not. Quote: The key thing is when I have no way to counter that is game over, so instead of using a freighter I use DST's. Perfectly fine on risk control there... No way to counter? Rubbish. it would help if you made a thread containing all the ways that allow someone to counter getting his freighter ganked. you then could link that thread for anyone-¦s consumption if needed and stop "discussing" the topic, saving you time for more important things. i-¦d further suggest to split it up in things one can do solo and things one can do with an alt or a friend. only really important part is to not bring opinions and ego into it and staying with what can be done ingame. stick with reality, answer questions in case they show confusion and spread it as much as you can. it-¦ll help and is far more productive than constant argueing and "rubbish". "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 757	Posted - 2016.08.16 08:56:26 - [342] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: it would help if you made a thread containing all the ways that allow someone to counter getting his freighter ganked. you then could link that thread for anyone-¦s consumption if needed and stop "discussing" the topic, saving you time for more important things. That's a good idea. It unfortunately won't stop the need to keep calling Dracvlad's lies out for what they are. I'll start a thread, with a look at Drac's stupid claims about risk from suicide Blackbirds.
Solecist Project 32128	Posted - 2016.08.16 09:07:00 - [343] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Solecist Project wrote: it would help if you made a thread containing all the ways that allow someone to counter getting his freighter ganked. you then could link that thread for anyone-¦s consumption if needed and stop "discussing" the topic, saving you time for more important things. That's a good idea. It unfortunately won't stop the need to keep calling Dracvlad's lies out for what they are. I'll start a thread, with a look at Drac's stupid claims about risk from suicide Blackbirds. in c&p, i hope, to gain more information as well (one person can-¦t think of it all) ... though i must say i-¦d love some c&p members posting gd more frequently. they-¦re kind of needed here... thank you for accepting my idea! :) "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17459	Posted - 2016.08.16 09:17:26 - [344] - Quote Asking for locators to no longer give any intell on someone who isnt playing the game is asking considerably less Than asking for an afk flag, which is intell that has never been in the game. =]\|[=
Solecist Project 32128	Posted - 2016.08.16 09:25:01 - [345] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Asking for locators to no longer give any intell on someone who isnt playing the game is asking considerably less Than asking for an afk flag, which is intell that has never been in the game. i have a suggestion for this that-¦s been on my mind for a good year and is technically doable. plus it wouldn-¦t rely on the big political entity to provide. so... you guys have enough money to run alts you can park everywhere. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to take screenshots of the game. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to parse the local list. python ftw. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to send that list around. sadly it would be verboten to use evewebmails for automatic spreading, but there-¦s other ways. with clever placed alts you could surveill a lot of space without having to have them everywhere. it-¦s perfectly doable. i love python. what-¦s your take? "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17461	Posted - 2016.08.16 09:32:41 - [346] - Quote If i hace alts in these systems why not just, watch local? =]\|[=
Nitshe Razvedka 1144	Posted - 2016.08.16 09:36:56 - [347] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Asking for locators to no longer give any intell on someone who isnt playing the game is asking considerably less Than asking for an afk flag, which is intell that has never been in the game. i have a suggestion for this that-¦s been on my mind for a good year and is technically doable. plus it wouldn-¦t rely on the big political entity to provide. so... you guys have enough money to run alts you can park everywhere. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to take screenshots of the game. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to parse the local list of the screenshot. it-¦s also completely legal within the eula (it-¦s a screenshot) and python ftw. it-¦s technically possible and relatively trivial to send that list around. sadly it would be verboten to use evewebmails for automatic spreading, but there-¦s other ways. with clever placed alts you could surveill a lot of space without having to have them everywhere. it-¦s perfectly doable. i love python. what-¦s your take? This is why Hillary types don't run businesses. Stick to reading palms Sol. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2194	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:21:30 - [348] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Asking for locators to no longer give any intell on someone who isnt playing the game is asking considerably less Than asking for an afk flag, which is intell that has never been in the game. Deflection on to another subject, your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, it cannot be countered, my suggestions all can be countered by blowing the OS up.and are content drivers in that they cause a point of contact for both sides.. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 172	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:32:14 - [349] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it If you pay for something, it isn't free That much is obvious to anybody that has more than 2 brain cells to rub together. I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3052	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:34:20 - [350] - Quote If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free. When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously. And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes. Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this. Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26608	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:37:06 - [351] - Quote Giaus Felix wrote: If you pay for something, it isn't free Omar Alharazaad wrote: If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free. This is general discussion, your logical conclusions have no place here Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Solecist Project 32131	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:39:26 - [352] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free. When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously. And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes. Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this. Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey. Then make it open to everyone, like it should be. Claiming it's not a viable option is worthless. Explain why it isn't! What mercs currently are doing is outright useless and serves you nothing. It only supports the nonsense about you wanting cheap and easy kills ... ... doesn't add anything to the game ... ... doesn't send a message ... ... and doesn't change anything. So please, explain why it's not viable. It's a better idea than what is going on now ... ... especially because it doesn't rely on big brother CCP to change something. Thank you. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Solecist Project 32131	Posted - 2016.08.16 10:42:33 - [353] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: If i hace alts in these systems why not just, watch local? Because that's even worse than mining and extremely tiresome if you do it for hours. My solution works automatically and avoids locators and the need of big brother ccp to change something for you. And it's certainly doable. Plus it would put all the useless money that's just sitting in wallets to good use. DoublePlus, if you open it up for everyone, you could create the foundations to get rid of CONCORD alltogether. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:14:14 - [354] - Quote Giaus Felix wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it If you pay for something, it isn't free That much is obvious to anybody that has more than 2 brain cells to rub together. 250k is as near to free as you can get in Eve. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Valkin Mordirc 2356	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:20:28 - [355] - Quote Quote: Locators are as good as free, 250k, so what that is chicken shite and there is no counter, see that word, personally I think locator agents are lame too, I would remove them as well, plus all the data on the map too. This is not a FPS. 250k plus actually pinning down a target in system. Is not free. It requires both fee's and work to placed. You saying 250k is not free is saying that a pack of bubblegum that is only 50cents is not free. It still has cost. And you not considering the amount of work that goes with the intel of the locate. Work, and Fee's. Time and Isk is spent. The Watchlist, telling me if a Target is online, how many Members in a corp is online, is free. No work or fee's had to go into that intel Quote: You want locator agents to say if they are online or not too and where is the counter for that, it is free intel in the sense that you did not have to go out of you way to gather that data, you just ask and its given to you on a plate for some ISK, its not at all like what I proposed which is a skynet type system of OS which can be countered by someone with a bit more to them. Add a refund for 50% cost paid if the target is not online. I really don't care if it's at the bringing of the end of the locate. Problem very easily solved. Quote: I used to do the intel gathering and setting up for others to get the kills, which is why I said I would simply not operate as you lot do and why this challenge is stupid. All it does is prove just how reliant on the watch list you were Can you please show me a Killboard, or some kind of proof where all this work gave out the sorta of kills that Merc's get? You seem to be saying that all merc's can get the same outcome without locators. If so please show me something. Because it's a lot of I do this, I do that, with no burden being provided. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:34:41 - [356] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: If you are paying for intel then by definition it is not free. When you have an active merc corp running locates on possible targets they spend a LOT of isk on those agents over the course of a war.... well, you did before they became useless, but I digress. You can easily spend as much as the cost of the war on locates over it's duration, often times more. It doesn't seem like much each time you pull the lever, but it adds up, especially if you take into consideration the total number of characters and agents being employed simultaneously. And for what? Ideally, the location of a player who is online and in space 'at the time you triggered the agent'. Great. You still need to get eyes to that area and scout out to find if they are still anywhere near there. Oftentimes they're long gone by the time you get there, but that's just how it goes. Or how it went. It's busted now. Like Ralph, I'm not advocating the return of the watchlist. It was a valuable tool, but mercs can live without it provided they have other viable tools for collecting intel on their targets. Locator agents being fixed would resolve this. Sending out a thousand neutral flying monkeys to cover the four corners of empire in hopes of finding Dorothy and her little dog is not a viable option. Smaller organizations cannot do this, and larger ones would rather just dec everything in sight near their homeland to reduce the burden of tracking prey. From a reasonable point of view I could accept the detailing of online status as well as location for locator agents at additional cost and time limitations in being able to ask for another. But as I keep saying there is no counter, perhaps if prey can pay his own locator agents to keep tabs on people checking his location and status and get reports of attempts to locate him. From my prespective I cannot understand that you have not done any leg work on the target before putting the war dec in if it is a hunt and kill contract as compared to a structure defence. This goes against the concept of Eve being a thinking mans game. It does not require a thousand neutral monkey's flying around, but to play within your means and abilities and know your area. I know that you guys tend to focus around Amarr space in general. My focus on the OS was to push war dec entities to have skin in the game, something other than GTFO ships that the often poor in PVP SP players can blast as an act of resistance, the motive was to place a cost on war dec entities for having a watch list type system, so for ease of anything why not both and take my point on counter on board as it is important. Thanks for a more measured post on this. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17466	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:35:36 - [357] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc. =]\|[=
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:35:55 - [358] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Quote: Locators are as good as free, 250k, so what that is chicken shite and there is no counter, see that word, personally I think locator agents are lame too, I would remove them as well, plus all the data on the map too. This is not a FPS. 250k plus actually pinning down a target in system. Is not free. It requires both fee's and work to placed. You saying 250k is not free is saying that a pack of bubblegum that is only 50cents is not free. It still has cost. And you not considering the amount of work that goes with the intel of the locate. Work, and Fee's. Time and Isk is spent. The Watchlist, telling me if a Target is online, how many Members in a corp is online, is free. No work or fee's had to go into that intel Quote: You want locator agents to say if they are online or not too and where is the counter for that, it is free intel in the sense that you did not have to go out of you way to gather that data, you just ask and its given to you on a plate for some ISK, its not at all like what I proposed which is a skynet type system of OS which can be countered by someone with a bit more to them. Add a refund for 50% cost paid if the target is not online. I really don't care if it's at the bringing of the end of the locate. Problem very easily solved. Quote: I used to do the intel gathering and setting up for others to get the kills, which is why I said I would simply not operate as you lot do and why this challenge is stupid. All it does is prove just how reliant on the watch list you were Can you please show me a Killboard, or some kind of proof where all this work gave out the sorta of kills that Merc's get? You seem to be saying that all merc's can get the same outcome without locators. If so please show me something. Because it's a lot of I do this, I do that, with no burden being provided. That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:40:01 - [359] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc. OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Giaus Felix Hedion University Amarr Empire 174	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:44:09 - [360] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Giaus Felix wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it If you pay for something, it isn't free That much is obvious to anybody that has more than 2 brain cells to rub together. 250k is as near to free as you can get in Eve. A 250,000 isk payment to a locator agent is not free, free implies that you receive something without any form of payment. Stop using the word free to describe something that is clearly not free. I am Ralph's junk DNA.
Valkin Mordirc 2356	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:44:15 - [361] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? `#DeleteTheWeak`
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 252	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:49:42 - [362] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc. OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings. I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us. Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it. HTFU
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17894	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:51:21 - [363] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Well the question is more like would a war dec entity have bothered to have gone after someone like you before the watch list change, the answer would be no. Try harder please... They did. Now, how about you backing up your BS for once? Come find me. OK now that is because of what, your ganking activities so someone paid them to war dec you and they of course had little hope of getting you. The trick in this game is to know what you can and cannot do and not try something that is impossible. The person who may have paid for a war dec against you would have been silly in my book. I for one know it would be very unlikely to have any impact on you whatsoever. I would not war dec PL to go after you period. Now if you were operating nearly all the time near me then that would be different. I did at one time do a locator agent on you to find you location for interest and you were in Deklin at that point.. I know that you are not the alt of Warr Akkini or Endie, but have not managed to get more than that. You are as far as I am concerned are fairly untouchable. Which is why you comment is silly. If you can't get better info on me of all people than how do you expect to track down people nobody knows? Especially given that they have no way of telling if they are online or not.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 11:54:03 - [364] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 253	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:02:54 - [365] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me... So would you just stumble across these people? Would you observe how they travel or where they move their moon goo to and from? If so then that is completely different. Stalking and observing is not the same as running a locator. HTFU
Valkin Mordirc 2356	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:03:50 - [366] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me... All that is different is the mechanics... All that is different is the mechanics....and the act of hunting and killing is different. So, what your saying is it's completely the same, expect that the core mechanics of the area are different? Honestly dude, I don't think you understand how Highsec Wardecs really work. I think you are basing your idea's on what you did out in Null and you think that they will fit into highsec. Go out and wardec some people. Do your nullsec thing in Highsec and come back and we can all see the results. If you manage to kill a decent amount of people I'll honestly give you a bit more validity, but really your not showing that you have any understanding about the current meta of how Highsec Mercs have to operate under. You'll have a better idea on what you are trying to accomplish. `#DeleteTheWeak`
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:07:40 - [367] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc. OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings. I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us. Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it. You made no effort to get that intel apart from standings to get the agent and then the ISK fee. What you do with it is down to your own competence or lack thereof. I would assume that you would have a specific locator alt and that you would with just a bit of effort be in the general area, is that too big an assumption to make on my part You make it sound like you are in Domain and run a locator on a guy who is normally running missions in Osmon, well of course you will have to get into position... If you get them to block your character you can do convo requests to find out if they are online or not without tipping them off. The lack of a counter for the prey is an issue, as I have the ability to run locator agents perhaps there is something that CCP can allow as a counter if I pay for it. What does your suggestion prove, before any war dec went live I would have gathered the intel I needed, but here is an important factor for me, just because someone is in space does not mean they will be in space after the war dec goes live, the key factor is whether they have something in space that can be attacked. So your issue is also target selection. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 253	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:08:33 - [368] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me... Also, concerning your signature. Im curious... When have gankers ever had a CSM member in their pocket fighting for them? HTFU
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 253	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:14:35 - [369] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Dracvlad wrote: your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it, Im going to write that quote out in Calligraphy ,gilde ,frame and hang it over my pc. OK I should use better terminology, being in the Eve forums has addled my brain a bit, obviously paying for it is not free, nor is the standings required to get it. However apart from that you have to make no further effort than having an alt in position to get the data, and worst of all and where my main issue is, is the simple fact that there is no counter. Is that better for my issue with it, the lack of a counter and that it requires no real effort apart from the initial effort of standings. I urge you to go out now, post-watchlist nerf and use locator agents to track people down. You arent allowed to shoot them a convo to see if they are online because that is something that is highly likely to tip them off. So go get a list of people and run locates. Go fly around after youve done this with a list of 20 and then get back to us. Yeah sure all we had to do was type in a name, press ok, then wait a few minutes... But this is overdoing it. You made no effort to get that intel apart from standings to get the agent and then the ISK fee. What you do with it is down to your own competence or lack thereof. I would assume that you would have a specific locator alt and that you would with just a bit of effort be in the general area, is that too big an assumption to make on my part You make it sound like you are in Domain and run a locator on a guy who is normally running missions in Osmon, well of course you will have to get into position... If you get them to block your character you can do convo requests to find out if they are online or not without tipping them off. The lack of a counter for the prey is an issue, as I have the ability to run locator agents perhaps there is something that CCP can allow as a counter if I pay for it. What does your suggestion prove, before any war dec went live I would have gathered the intel I needed, but here is an important factor for me, just because someone is in space does not mean they will be in space after the war dec goes live, the key factor is whether they have something in space that can be attacked. So your issue is also target selection. Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online. There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming. Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures. HTFU
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3055	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:18:11 - [370] - Quote Dracvlad, a few things, and I'm not attacking you, just responding. Firstly, when I was with the Devils, and when I return to them, I am not a decider when it comes to who war happens with. We were a contract group, which meant that the powers that be chose whom to war with upon being paid to do so. What that meant for me was I had people I was supposed to hunt. I did not choose them. That said, the amount of legwork necessary to truly put the tongs to a corp in a meaningful way now is a pretty serious amount of work. Just compensating a merc corp for the labor time to do so would push the cost of hiring them well beyond what most employers would consider reasonable. Secondly, and these are obviously not in any sane order.... the use of locator agents not being counterable is not an unbalanced thing if you consider the amount of time and effort that goes in to getting to be able to use them. I know many pve players can access them incidentally, but that's more of a side effect of their work rather than the goal. For pvp focused characters this means hours upon hours of gruelling, soul killing boredom grinding missions just so they can use these guys. Being able to find out where someone was five minutes ago every thirty minutes isn't over the top. Also, if you happen to dive into a wormhole they can't find you at all, so they actually CAN be countered. And thirdly, I don't know of any mercs that bring ships that are stabbed to a fight. If a target has a point fitted and weapons of some kind they can very readily kill a merc's ship. If they don't have a point they can drive it off, which is still a win for them. Now, that said, I'll grant you this much. If a merc is doing their job right the target wont know that they're in for a fight until about five seconds before it starts. It's EVE after all, fortune favors those who take the initiative. For us what that fight involved really depended on how far we had to go to engage. Closer battles meant cruiser class ships usually, anything further usually involved frigates and destroyers because nobody wants to spend two hours on the freeway driving to the amusement park. Now. Sol. Also not an attack, just trying to respond. The reason I say the whole flying monkey thing isn't viable is that I've tried it. Actually, it wasn't just me... there were more than a few of us that tried it for months. It doesn't work. You can sometimes get lucky, but if you are like me and play at hours when there are few people online then your chances are so low that they approach close enough to zero for there not to be much of a difference. I spent countless hours flying around in search of targets, usually with over a dozen active wars and over 800 potential targets. nothing, nada, zip. There's just too much space for a handful of people to cover in search of what is likely to be one to a dozen people in the entirety of empire space online. It kills your will to try and you realize that you could have spent those hours doing something productive instead. When the change came around I muttered a little bit, warned some folks of the impending mass decs and hunkered down at got to work searching for targets in space. I didn't really start griping until months later when it became apparent that this doesn't work and that there was nothing in the works to make it better. So I come across a little bit bitter at this point because I am. I don't want CCP to make something special and new so much as take responsibility for the fact that when they fixed one thing they broke another. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 528	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:22:44 - [371] - Quote As for researching the target before the war goes live - most of them change their behavioral patterns pretty significantly the second they get the wardec notification....And even the ones who don't change right away certainly change as soon as you kill a few of them derping along in their old hangouts. Ironically back in the days when high-sec corps dug in and defended their homes, the watch list was fairly superfluous - but in the modern EVE where the targets run away at the first hint of danger it was quite useful. As for locator agents, a few points: #1 - I think you underestimate how much grinding goes in to unlocking locator agents - particularly if you want/need them across multiple regions or you are running them on a massive scale - because you can't re-use the same agent over and over, you have to move to a new agent every time you want a locator... I forget what the reset time per agent is but it is something on the order of a full 30 minutes between locates you can run... #2 - There is a counter to locator agents - it is called "moving". Even the fasted level 4 locator still has a full 4 minute delay - and you can move a lot in 4 minutes. I've had a lot of war targets do this to me - and honestly even though they didn't fight me in open combat I respected these players for putting in the time to fight back in their own way. Without the watch list this method is extra effective - because there is no way for them to tell whether you have relocated or simply logged off without burning another locator agent even (by which point you can have moved again). #3 - It isn't free in terms of isk - 250k per locate really does add up. Fast. Particularly when you end up running 5-10 locates trying to run down a single target who keeps moving around...and when you have dozens of active targets to try to hunt.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:26:32 - [372] - Quote Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Valkin Mordirc wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is an argument point the last one, we got a lot of kill in Stain going after mission runners in certain HUB's its on my alliances killboard when we were fairly active. I made a suggestion above this post and my reasons for the OS. So. How does any experience in Nullsec pertain to Highsec? Hunting and killing mission runners is what you do in hisec and is what I did in NPC 0.0. I also hunted and killed people moving moon goo and stuff like that. All that is different is the hisec mechanics., so what is your point, because you have CONCORD and hisec criminal mechanics that the act of hunting and killing is different. Really you surprise me... All that is different is the mechanics... All that is different is the mechanics....and the act of hunting and killing is different. So, what your saying is it's completely the same, expect that the core mechanics of the area are different? Honestly dude, I don't think you understand how Highsec Wardecs really work. I think you are basing your idea's on what you did out in Null and you think that they will fit into highsec. Go out and wardec some people. Do your nullsec thing in Highsec and come back and we can all see the results. If you manage to kill a decent amount of people I'll honestly give you a bit more validity, but really your not showing that you have any understanding about the current meta of how Highsec Mercs have to operate under. You'll have a better idea on what you are trying to accomplish. I honestly cannot understand your point that it is any different, apart from being easier, I can gather intel a lot easier in hisec, because as soon as I arrive in local even with a neutral looking alt that runs data or relic sites they still change their habits. In hisec they continue doing what they do. I can very quickly get their other accounts if I hang around watching them. I am talking about intel gathering to know how they operate, where and in what. As far as I am concerned that is a hell of a lot easier in hisec. I probe them down in missions like you do, I get a point on them like you do, as soon as someone flashy red comes into local they can get safe like anyone coming into local for them You can do the same logoofski traps on the first gate. There is no difference at all. How is the act of hunting and killing different? The difference is that you are mass decking to get a wider sample of targets, while I can kill anyone who comes through, but the population is often a lot less in NPC 0.0. The only difference is that there are a lot more people around in hisec and that those you have not war deckked you cannot attack. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 529	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:32:29 - [373] - Quote All of that being said I wouldn't necessarily mind an Observation Station to get intel on my targets - it would be a minor annoyance (for me anyway) - but once it was set up it would just be free intel. Lets face it, war targets who aren't willing to commit to a fight vs whatever solo ship I bring to their home system certainly aren't going to come to fight me in my own home system where I can reship at will, etc... My only real objection to it is it is needless extra setup and I truly don't believe it would put the mercs at any more risk than they have now - because nobody but another merc corp would ever dare to touch it.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:35:50 - [374] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online. There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming. Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures. I would agree, but it is a method. When I checked your alliance last I had 100 plus actual in alliance characters and around 20 out of alliance characters logged, can I seriously run a locator agent on that lot. Be serious, of course I did narrow it down a bit, I know which one your group was around Jita, which one was around Amarrr and I knew which ones tended to go out as a small fleet. But it is still a lot of people to cover with locator agents. But you have multiple players many with locator agents, totally different, its like people saying you can gank the bumper, its a throw away line which does not have any base in reality. Scouts yes and no, depends on how many accounts and how many active players, but yes can be done. Yes the maximum damage to a target, that I don't envy you for in terms of difficulty, from my perception I would never hire a merc to damage someone, I would only hire a merc for a specific target. There would be exceptions but I would make that call after having watched someone first to find out just how cautious or not they were. Endie who was the CEO of Bat County picked up the issue around wreck EHP just after the AG players started to gank freighter wrecks, it was in my opinion a **** move, but even worse it showed just how out of touch CCP was with their own game, they destroyed emergent game play for the AG players that put them at the same level as gankers in terms of difficulty to stop. CCP having realised the gift then added EHP to freighters, I would prefer the wrecks stilling being as they were. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26612	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:40:06 - [375] - Quote I'm wondering what makes him think that wardec targets will attack a structure such as an observation platform, I think he's seriously overestimating the ability, or willingness, of people to work together; as it stands mercs dec multiple corps, if even a small minority of those targets worked together they could tear the wardec corps a new one, what's more they could do it in cheap ships. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:53:02 - [376] - Quote Omar that is a long mail and I will try to address it as best I can. I understand that you have to act on clients requests, but you can also temper expectations, ask them for intel etc. Yes it can be a lot of work I don't deny it at all. I hate running missions as much as you do, I also understand that you likely did that on an alt account taht will hang around that area, doubly hard, however you can add them to fleet and increase it quite easily. I agree with the statement that finding where someone was five minutes ago once every thirty minutes is not over the top, but as the prey I have no counter to that intel unless I sit in a WH. I have killed a fair amount of mission ships, you guys are likely better at PvP than me, my only issue is what else they can bring in before we can kill it or that we have to hold them in their missions while getting people in on them, its not easy in terms of that.. I read what you said to Sol, I think adding the online status to locator agents would be acceptable, but I think there are benefits to my idea of an OS has a lot of merit, because I am coming at it from the point of view that I want people to fight back. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:55:45 - [377] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: All of that being said I wouldn't necessarily mind an Observation Station to get intel on my targets - it would be a minor annoyance (for me anyway) - but once it was set up it would just be free intel. Lets face it, war targets who aren't willing to commit to a fight vs whatever solo ship I bring to their home system certainly aren't going to come to fight me in my own home system where I can reship at will, etc... My only real objection to it is it is needless extra setup and I truly don't believe it would put the mercs at any more risk than they have now - because nobody but another merc corp would ever dare to touch it. I for one would attack them and I would be pushing anyone in the AG group who got a war dec to look at that as an option. Don't forget the objective is to change the mentality of people in hisec which is not going to be easy, its a small step, but something that could give them the idea of resisting which is a start. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 254	Posted - 2016.08.16 12:56:26 - [378] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online. There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming. Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures. I would agree, but it is a method. When I checked your alliance last I had 100 plus actual in alliance characters and around 20 out of alliance characters logged, can I seriously run a locator agent on that lot. Be serious, of course I did narrow it down a bit, I know which one your group was around Jita, which one was around Amarrr and I knew which ones tended to go out as a small fleet. But it is still a lot of people to cover with locator agents. But you have multiple players many with locator agents, totally different, its like people saying you can gank the bumper, its a throw away line which does not have any base in reality. Scouts yes and no, depends on how many accounts and how many active players, but yes can be done. Yes the maximum damage to a target, that I don't envy you for in terms of difficulty, from my perception I would never hire a merc to damage someone, I would only hire a merc for a specific target. There would be exceptions but I would make that call after having watched someone first to find out just how cautious or not they were. Endie who was the CEO of Bat County picked up the issue around wreck EHP just after the AG players started to gank freighter wrecks, it was in my opinion a **** move, but even worse it showed just how out of touch CCP was with their own game, they destroyed emergent game play for the AG players that put them at the same level as gankers in terms of difficulty to stop. CCP having realised the gift then added EHP to freighters, I would prefer the wrecks stilling being as they were. The wreck ehp change was good because it also gives people a chance to loot caoitak wrecks in large nullsec fights where it was previously not happening due to people just popping the wrecks. AG popping wrecks in a thrasher is not content like ganking a freighter is. AG have plenty of opportunity for content but lack the knowledge, willpower, and/or organization to do so. You have the same amount of tools that gankers have. HTFU
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2195	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:07:15 - [379] - Quote Jonah Gravenstein wrote: I'm wondering what makes him think that wardec targets will attack a structure such as an observation platform, I think he's seriously overestimating the ability, or willingness, of people to work together; as it stands mercs dec multiple corps, if even a small minority of those targets worked together they could tear the wardec corps a new one, what's more they could do it in cheap ships. Lets try and answer your point and see if you can stay reasonable, most times I reply to you, you start getting all HTFU. But this is a point that needs to be addressed. I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter. The other side of this is trying to catch the Svipuls and Cynabels used by the pipe campers. Yes I could catch them, however I have dealt with a lot of GTFO type ships picking off tackle in 0.0, it is very difficult to do against people who know what they are doing and to be honest it is annoying content because as soon as they see a risk they warp away, double donw on that with most defenders being low Sp PvP characters, what chance do they have. I have tried to push people to fight back, but the issue is that many people do not have the skills to do enough and my biggest issue was with vet players who just hate hisec war decs. Because I have actually tried to push people to develop a mentality to fight back I know that the majority have no interest on the current gameplay. One of the things that used to get people involved in even small 0.0 alliances was structure bashing, it develops an I can do attitude, something to break away from the there is no point attitude that most have in hisec. My suggestion is aimed to try that, it may not work but its is better than nothing and gives something back to the war dec entities so they don't all sink into blanket war decs. You can of course start twisting what I said to meet your normal desire to attack me personally of you can think about it, I have come across people taht want to fight but don't feel they can, changing that mentality would be possible with that OS. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3057	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:07:41 - [380] - Quote The OS thing, I have mixed feelings about it. Well, by mixed I mean I think it has potential for hilarious results. What would happen is this. Neutral eyes are kept on the OS. The moment people locate it and start forming up the mercs mobilize. Derpfleet lands on OS, mercs head that way. Upon arrival the larger and slower mercs warp in to engage Derpfleet. Faster smaller ships linger outside of system on the out gates. Derpfleet's morale breaks upon facing players who LIKE to fight other players... the smart ones dock up. The dumb ones warp out of system and are either immediately greeted by the faster small ships left behind or are pursued by them. Rivers of tears flow. Outraged bears flood GD with more whine threads. Admiral Akbar faps in his quarters. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Nitshe Razvedka 1154	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:28:34 - [381] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online. There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming. Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures. I would agree, but it is a method. When I checked your alliance last I had 100 plus actual in alliance characters and around 20 out of alliance characters logged, can I seriously run a locator agent on that lot. Be serious, of course I did narrow it down a bit, I know which one your group was around Jita, which one was around Amarrr and I knew which ones tended to go out as a small fleet. But it is still a lot of people to cover with locator agents. But you have multiple players many with locator agents, totally different, its like people saying you can gank the bumper, its a throw away line which does not have any base in reality. Scouts yes and no, depends on how many accounts and how many active players, but yes can be done. Yes the maximum damage to a target, that I don't envy you for in terms of difficulty, from my perception I would never hire a merc to damage someone, I would only hire a merc for a specific target. There would be exceptions but I would make that call after having watched someone first to find out just how cautious or not they were. Endie who was the CEO of Bat County picked up the issue around wreck EHP just after the AG players started to gank freighter wrecks, it was in my opinion a **** move, but even worse it showed just how out of touch CCP was with their own game, they destroyed emergent game play for the AG players that put them at the same level as gankers in terms of difficulty to stop. CCP having realised the gift then added EHP to freighters, I would prefer the wrecks stilling being as they were. The wreck ehp change was good because it also gives people a chance to loot caoitak wrecks in large nullsec fights where it was previously not happening due to people just popping the wrecks. AG popping wrecks in a thrasher is not content like ganking a freighter is. AG have plenty of opportunity for content but lack the knowledge, willpower, and/or organization to do so. You have the same amount of tools that gankers have. The biggest obstacle for the AG community is the profit motive. Thieving pirates discuss INTEGRITY; Anarchist gankers give us LAWS; and Whoring merc's cry then blow off clients with INSULTS. Up is down and down is up in the C&P Forum.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:30:08 - [382] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: The wreck ehp change was good because it also gives people a chance to loot caoitak wrecks in large nullsec fights where it was previously not happening due to people just popping the wrecks. AG popping wrecks in a thrasher is not content like ganking a freighter is. AG have plenty of opportunity for content but lack the knowledge, willpower, and/or organization to do so. You have the same amount of tools that gankers have. The EHP change was accepted by AG players because of that point, I accept it for that, I just don't like how it was done. Having said all that it was something that had been like that from the start of the game, just as the wacth list was there from 2005 I think. I don't like the throw away line you just gave, it shows ignorance of the subject and contempt. First of all that wreck EHP was like that for years, but as soon as AG start popping wrecks bang it gets changed, thats like a Catalyst killing a Hulk is it not, but no two and a half years it took for an adjustment and a single catalyst can still kill a Hulk in a 0.5 system. So what is AG, its a resistance militia, mostly made up of unpaid and low SP characters, you have no idea just how difficult it was to get enough people to have an alt that was trained up to gank wrecks and they were happy to go -10 with. Tat is akin to me dismissing the fact that you still had to get on the guy who you ran a location on. The thing is that you have to move quick, before they can scoop it,, so being 20k is now a bit of a challenge, think that through that is three Catalysts, say 18 seconds worth with CONCORD on the scene in a 0.5 system with a lot of people also around shooting anyone that goes suspect. Due to the low numbers those people would be better off in repping ships perhsp, or ECM ships or trying to bump the freighter out of catalyst range. The majority of AG fleets I have been in had 3 to 6 people, I was in one that got up to 24. You are also having to find which target they are hitting and they stack up targets and people often have to come a long way, you must be aware of the lag that you get when a gank fleet jumps through, 24 pilots can cause all manner of issues on poor hisec nodes. I have been on the gate with a fast locker unable to lock a Talos, gets a bit annoying so I leave that to people with better internet. So what next you might have caught one on the gate, now its a race against the DPS with reppers, while people try to jam them or kill them before they can get full DPS. ECM is easy to counter, while killing them is pretty difficult in terms of stopping the DPS unless you have a lot of people with good alpha ships, AG in the main does not have those players. Most are low SP. Gank the blackbird that does the suicide point, most AG don't gank, gank the Macherial bumper that is one to four Talos's and in any case ganking a fast moving BS like that is not the same as ganking a freighter. The only time they had the ability to use a small fast ship like the gankers and it gets taken away immediately, so in reality its just a game of more often than not passive defence such as repping. Disorganisation, people giving their spare time against dedicated gankers from the most organised alliances in the game, willpower, people want to help against people who are fully focused on this to make ISK and hurt their enemies. Knowledge in terms of SP where most AG are the alts on which they can spare some SP. To be utterly blunt I respect them hugely for doing as well as they do. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:32:35 - [383] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: The OS thing, I have mixed feelings about it. Well, by mixed I mean I think it has potential for hilarious results. What would happen is this. Neutral eyes are kept on the OS. The moment people locate it and start forming up the mercs mobilize. Derpfleet lands on OS, mercs head that way. Upon arrival the larger and slower mercs warp in to engage Derpfleet. Faster smaller ships linger outside of system on the out gates. Derpfleet's morale breaks upon facing players who LIKE to fight other players... the smart ones dock up. The dumb ones warp out of system and are either immediately greeted by the faster small ships left behind or are pursued by them. Rivers of tears flow. Outraged bears flood GD with more whine threads. Admiral Akbar faps in his quarters. Yes but now imagine some people who know what they are doing being a part of this, we get a whole new level of content... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 257	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:35:03 - [384] - Quote Nitshe Razvedka wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Forcing myself to get added to a block list is a terrible method in which to see if someone is online. There is a counter... As a mission runner they are much more likely to habe access to more locator agents. If they are wardecd by a group, they can run locates to see if they are moving close. Said person can spread scouts around to see if they are coming. Sometimes the client just requests maximum damage to a target and doesnt involve and structures. I would agree, but it is a method. When I checked your alliance last I had 100 plus actual in alliance characters and around 20 out of alliance characters logged, can I seriously run a locator agent on that lot. Be serious, of course I did narrow it down a bit, I know which one your group was around Jita, which one was around Amarrr and I knew which ones tended to go out as a small fleet. But it is still a lot of people to cover with locator agents. But you have multiple players many with locator agents, totally different, its like people saying you can gank the bumper, its a throw away line which does not have any base in reality. Scouts yes and no, depends on how many accounts and how many active players, but yes can be done. Yes the maximum damage to a target, that I don't envy you for in terms of difficulty, from my perception I would never hire a merc to damage someone, I would only hire a merc for a specific target. There would be exceptions but I would make that call after having watched someone first to find out just how cautious or not they were. Endie who was the CEO of Bat County picked up the issue around wreck EHP just after the AG players started to gank freighter wrecks, it was in my opinion a **** move, but even worse it showed just how out of touch CCP was with their own game, they destroyed emergent game play for the AG players that put them at the same level as gankers in terms of difficulty to stop. CCP having realised the gift then added EHP to freighters, I would prefer the wrecks stilling being as they were. The wreck ehp change was good because it also gives people a chance to loot caoitak wrecks in large nullsec fights where it was previously not happening due to people just popping the wrecks. AG popping wrecks in a thrasher is not content like ganking a freighter is. AG have plenty of opportunity for content but lack the knowledge, willpower, and/or organization to do so. You have the same amount of tools that gankers have. The biggest obstacle for the AG community is the profit motive. You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. If AG proved to groups like Minikuv they they were an actusl threat and capable of stopping ganks then you would see AG doing just that. But you are right... Theres always potential profit when a ganking group targets a freighter. The flipside is that unless the freighter offers payment to AG for helping, theres not much direct profit... Unless you do things like gank their dst, catch their suspect looting freighters, or loot their bump machariels that AG can gank. HTFU
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 529	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:36:39 - [385] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter. As one of the people who has said this on many occasions - we don't mean they should hop in a cheap t1 frigate and come alone....or even with just a couple of people. If using t1 frigates to take on pirate cruisers fit for blapping small fast ships (which are quite common these days) complete with off-grid boosts/etc...I wouldn't recommend engaging with fewer than 15-20 newbs in t1 frigates. And unless you are going against a solo target, yes, all the frigates will probably die....but if you kill just 1 faction fit cynabal...you've won the fight. And not just the isk war. Mercs/wardec types take their killboards very seriously - they are going to be far more embarassed about losing a faction fit cynabal to a bunch of noobs than the noobs are going to be about losing a 5m isk frigate to a bunch of faction fit cruisers... If you want to win the fight - then I'd plan on bringing at least 10-15 frigates per enemy ship. This is where the wardec spam comes into play - because if the "victims" coordinated, they do have these numbers. They could field 200 t1 frigates vs every 10-man gate-camp - if they wanted to put in a little effort to set it up. Also when going against people in cruisers geared towards killing smaller targets as well as big targets - there is nothing preventing the mission runners from fitting up PvP fit cruisers/battlecruisers either...which will reduce the number of pilots needed to achieve the required damage output. As a practical, real, in-game example: About 3 weeks into EVE my PvE alliance was war-decced by "End of Line" alliance - led by Suitonia (whom you may have heard of). We formed a fleet of 20 assorted frigates/cruisers/battlecruisers vs the 5-6 people they could field at the time - and although we took losses, we got 4 respectable kills, and we would easily have won the isk war had one of our members not decided to afk mission in his faction fit navy raven... Additionally, on a personal level - I developed a 300k isk (at the time) atron fit that I fell in love with, and built up my PvP confidence amazingly, even though I died more than I killed. I even caught Suitonia's Taranis in my atron's scram/web - and put him into hull before he managed to kill me. Had my fleet members been paying attention, we would have killed Suitonia - but even though Suitonia got away alive, it is still a happy and proud memory of my first war in EVE. People are missing out by not giving themselves the opportunity to experience the adrenaline rush of standing up to the bullies and dealing damage to them... And the beauty of t1 fit suicide frigates is...no real loss when you do die - whereas your opponents care about every single ship they lose.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17896	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:38:46 - [386] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. Only thing that would increase profits for haulers is increased risk and loss.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:48:13 - [387] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. If AG proved to groups like Minikuv they they were an actusl threat and capable of stopping ganks then you would see AG doing just that. But you are right... Theres always potential profit when a ganking group targets a freighter. The flipside is that unless the freighter offers payment to AG for helping, theres not much direct profit... Unless you do things like gank their dst, catch their suspect looting freighters, or loot their bump machariels that AG can gank. The loot scooping is especially important, they use a noob ship to scoop through a DST and as most people do not use freighter cans due to the impact on the algorithm for the loot fairy their freighters don't often go suspect. I also pointed out earlier that most AG just do not gank because that would be a wasted character, once -10 you can only gank and as most are indy they want to use taht character for PI or other things. You seem to ignore this issue around ganking as if it is nothing. There are even some players who will tell me I am bad for ganking the gankers, which is kinda funny... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 13:49:31 - [388] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dracvlad wrote: I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter. As one of the people who has said this on many occasions - we don't mean they should hop in a cheap t1 frigate and come alone....or even with just a couple of people. If using t1 frigates to take on pirate cruisers fit for blapping small fast ships (which are quite common these days) complete with off-grid boosts/etc...I wouldn't recommend engaging with fewer than 15-20 newbs in t1 frigates. And unless you are going against a solo target, yes, all the frigates will probably die....but if you kill just 1 faction fit cynabal...you've won the fight. And not just the isk war. Mercs/wardec types take their killboards very seriously - they are going to be far more embarassed about losing a faction fit cynabal to a bunch of noobs than the noobs are going to be about losing a 5m isk frigate to a bunch of faction fit cruisers... If you want to win the fight - then I'd plan on bringing at least 10-15 frigates per enemy ship. This is where the wardec spam comes into play - because if the "victims" coordinated, they do have these numbers. They could field 200 t1 frigates vs every 10-man gate-camp - if they wanted to put in a little effort to set it up. Also when going against people in cruisers geared towards killing smaller targets as well as big targets - there is nothing preventing the mission runners from fitting up PvP fit cruisers/battlecruisers either...which will reduce the number of pilots needed to achieve the required damage output. As a practical, real, in-game example: About 3 weeks into EVE my PvE alliance was war-decced by "End of Line" alliance - led by Suitonia (whom you may have heard of). We formed a fleet of 20 assorted frigates/cruisers/battlecruisers vs the 5-6 people they could field at the time - and although we took losses, we got 4 respectable kills, and we would easily have won the isk war had one of our members not decided to afk mission in his faction fit navy raven... Additionally, on a personal level - I developed a 300k isk (at the time) atron fit that I fell in love with, and built up my PvP confidence amazingly, even though I died more than I killed. I even caught Suitonia's Taranis in my atron's scram/web - and put him into hull before he managed to kill me. Had my fleet members been paying attention, we would have killed Suitonia - but even though Suitonia got away alive, it is still a happy and proud memory of my first war in EVE. People are missing out by not giving themselves the opportunity to experience the adrenaline rush of standing up to the bullies and dealing damage to them... And the beauty of t1 fit suicide frigates is...no real loss when you do die - whereas your opponents care about every single ship they lose. If we could start to push something like that it would improve the game, but remember just dying without a kill is not going to do anything, that is why the OS was at least something. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 258	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:12:05 - [389] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. Only thing that would increase profits for haulers is increased risk and loss. Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo. HTFU
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 533	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:17:38 - [390] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: If we could start to push something like that it would improve the game, but remember just dying without a kill is not going to do anything, that is why the OS was at least something. That is why I recommend 15-20 minimum - because even with bare minimum skills that should put you up over the 1000 dps level - which means you can nuke even a tanky pirate cruiser in about 60 seconds, and you even stand a chance against light rr support - so this is the level at which I would be pretty confident of at least getting 1 worthwhile kill. I dropped it to 10-15 per enemy in larger engagements as once the engagement scales up beyond a single target you don't need quite as much overwhelming dps per target - since you can focus everything on them 1 by 1 and work through them. Even 1-200 vs 10 you'll take heavy losses - but you stand a pretty good chance of actually winning that fight and holding the field to gather up the loot (which means you probably make a profit, honestly) I definitely understand there is no fun in just losing...But if you can gather the people you really can deal damage - and once you deal damage to them and "win" the war...well...that makes it fun - at least for everyone I've ever met in EVE. edit: and while 20 ships at bare minimum skills, which I'm calling ~50 dps each, is 1000 dps... 20 maxed out incursuses can deal 300 dps each - which would raise that up to 6000 dps... So depending on your character ages involved your actual dps is probably somewhere in between those values.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17896	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:26:05 - [391] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo. Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity. Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:29:03 - [392] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo. Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity. Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec. That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17896	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:34:28 - [393] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole. Its data from several million gate jumps and they use the exact same rules, mechanics and tools available to everyone.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2196	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:40:02 - [394] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole. Its data from several million gate jumps and they use the exact same rules, mechanics and tools available to everyone. The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 533	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:43:42 - [395] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity. Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec. I'm not even disagreeing with your core point...but just for the record we determined it was a bit over a 0.25% chance of being ganked per trip. And CODE. freighter ganks are not funded by charity But yes, if you keep your cargo under 1 billion isk and just autopilot your freighter anywhere in high sec, you will only be ganked once every 400 trips or so.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 534	Posted - 2016.08.16 14:59:05 - [396] - Quote Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip... Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it. This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips. It also has the added bonus of making your trips go much faster than autopilotting. And yes, I'm a math nerd edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2201	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:11:22 - [397] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip... Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it. This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips. It also has the added bonus of making your trips go much faster than autopilotting. And yes, I'm a math nerd edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you. However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 534	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:16:15 - [398] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Alternatively for ~500m isk one time + a billion isk a month you can set up an alt in a loki, huginn, rapier, or other web-range bonused ship to insta-warp your freighter gate to gate and you can safely haul more than 1 billion isk per trip... Assuming a similar profit margin on whatever you are moving regardless of how big a chunk you move it in...you would need to transport 240 billion in the first month and then 160 billion per month after that to make this cost effective (or just a bit over 160 billion per month for however long it takes it to add up to the extra 80 billion moved there - eg: 180b for 4 months, then 160b ) - assuming you don't use the alt for anything else to add value to it. This is fairly extreme - but perhaps the haulers moving massive amounts of assets would find it worthwhile rather than splitting 10b isk into 10 separate trips. It also has the added bonus of making your trips go much faster than autopilotting. And yes, I'm a math nerd edit: And it (really should anyway) goes without saying that if you set up the alt as an SP farmer and/or PI farmer or any other form of passive income generator, it not only removes the cost of the alt but makes it an additional source of profit to you. However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber. True...but there is only around a 5 second window in which you are vulnerable with range bonused webs - so they would need pretty perfect timing. Not saying it can't be done - but it is difficult - particularly if they are trying to coordinate it with a -10 pilot.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2201	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:33:13 - [399] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Dracvlad wrote: [However for 10bn they would step up to a blackbird which adds very little to their cost, say 15m and negate your webber. True...but there is only around a 5 second window in which you are vulnerable with range bonused webs - so they would need pretty perfect timing. Not saying it can't be done - but it is difficult - particularly if they are trying to coordinate it with a -10 pilot. They don't tend to use a -10 character for it as they have to wait for the freighter to decloak. The thing is that a good bumper will get on a freighter after 5 seconds, the blackbird is set for instra lock on the freighter, so if will prevent the warp allowing the Macherial to get on it. People are better off doing 1bn loads like Red frog. But you are correct the one thing making it so they don't do it as much as they would want is the fact that they cannot really do it with a character who will be jumped on by the faction police. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17898	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:36:50 - [400] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec. What mechanic stops everyone else from not stuffing more than a billion into their holds?
Sack o'Richards Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2016.08.16 15:57:44 - [401] - Quote Dave Day wrote: I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? I just gonna say it. Why play a pvp game if you dont want to pvp? There is no aspect of EVE that is not enhanced by or dependant on pvp. In EVE it's only worth having if it is worth fighting for. There are a literal shitton of empire building sims out there. EVE is mmopvp. Carebear elsewhere?
Solecist Project 32172	Posted - 2016.08.16 16:38:11 - [402] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec. What mechanic stops everyone else from not stuffing more than a billion into their holds? Dracvlad, they are a part of it as much asthose who get ganked. The only difference is that they do not get ganked, because they aren't doing stupid. You can't just take a small portion and balance everything around them, insulting all those who aren't stupid. Again real life is the same way. Because of one idiot falling off the bridge the bridge now needs safety even though it was fine before. Is darwin in your mind an idiot? Do you understand evolution? You're smarter than that, drac. Accept that people who lack self responsibility haveto suffer for it. Everything else leads into a big brother scenario where people are being more and more shielded and those who aren't idiots are suffering for it. AND WORSE, the next generation grows up with the shielding, thinks it's normal and then demands even more shielding because they never learned to take care of themselves! It is that simple! Nature worked like this for millions of years and only nowadays, because of politics, things are changing towards the worst! "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26613	Posted - 2016.08.16 16:42:15 - [403] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Lets try and answer your point and see if you can stay reasonable, most times I reply to you, you start getting all HTFU. But this is a point that needs to be addressed. You're right, it is a point that needs to be addressed, and I'll keep the conversation civil as long as you do too. Quote: I have noted a lot of good PvP players say jump into something cheap and go and kill them, however a good player can rip through them like a wolf among sheep. I have been in situations where I have destroyed multiple ships around me. Its a factor of having the right ship and them having poor DPS and poor tankls, add to that OGB and implants and drugs and you really can go to town on people. When mercs say jump into a T1 frig and fight they know that they will in the main kick their ass badly, but they can make mistakes or there can be enough with the right comp that can tip the balance. Most of the time it is a slaughter. As Dirty Forum Alt pointed out, nobody is suggesting that people go one on one against mercs, that'd be insane. The key words are working together, 20+ frigates can make one hell of a mess when used correctly and it's a tactic that has been used with great success in both nullsec and hisec, even more so with decent leadership. While I know that many of the targets of wardecs are far from having decent leadership where PvP is concerned, some of the merc community have shown in the past that they're more than willing to help those that help themselves, PIRAT found that out when they wardecced a well known streamers corp last year and ended up hiding in the Amarr Emperor station when faced with a rag tag fleet of newbies and bears under decent FCs. Quote: The other side of this is trying to catch the Svipuls and Cynabels used by the pipe campers. Yes I could catch them, however I have dealt with a lot of GTFO type ships picking off tackle in 0.0, it is very difficult to do against people who know what they are doing and to be honest it is annoying content because as soon as they see a risk they warp away, double down on that with most defenders being low SP PvP characters, what chance do they have. While true that some of the ships used by campers are hard to catch especially in the hands of experienced players, low SP characters still have a chance when there's enough of them; once again the key words are working together. Quote: I have tried to push people to fight back, but the issue is that many people do not have the skills to do enough and my biggest issue was with vet players who just hate hisec war decs. Because I have actually tried to push people to develop a mentality to fight back I know that the majority have no interest on the current gameplay. Some just don't want to PvP which is fine in itself, but at the end of the day Eve is a PvP game and they need to accept that PvP may happen to them regardless of what they want. Quote: One of the things that used to get people involved in even small 0.0 alliances was structure bashing, it develops an I can do attitude, something to break away from the there is no point attitude that most have in hisec. My suggestion is aimed to try that, it may not work but its is better than nothing and gives something back to the war dec entities so they don't all sink into blanket war decs. You can of course start twisting what I said to meet your normal desire to attack me personally or you can think about it and push yourself to answer with reasons even if it is me, I have come across people that want to fight but don't feel they can, changing that mentality would be possible with that OS. I've always maintained that the problem people have with PvP in hisec is more social than mechanical, and I still do. People are insular, they want to do their own thing and don't like being interfered with, unfortunately for them the nature of the game is that people will interfere with them and that can be somewhat of a shock to those that have come from other games that do have a PvE specific area. An apparent unwillingness to work together or even ask those in the know how to deal with a wardec beyond not undocking for a week or complaining on the forums and reddit is not doing them any favours, they are seen as weak and thus easy meat; if they could overcome that unwillingness and work together to try and hit mercs where it hurts it would introduce their members to an aspect of the game that they may enjoy and if they do enjoy it may give them a core of people who are willing to engage in it next time it happens. It would also widen their social circles, which in turn leads to an exchange of knowledge and opens up possibilities for the future. Besides being a PvP game, Eve is also a social game, by not working with others against common foes people are gimping themselves and falling into the trap of believing they are powerless against mercs and gankers when the truth is that they're not; having enough friends to back you up is where the power to take on your foes comes from. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 26613	Posted - 2016.08.16 16:49:37 - [404] - Quote Sack o'Richards wrote: Dave Day wrote: I wonder if the community has a view on my suggestion? I just gonna say it. Why play a pvp game if you dont want to pvp? There is no aspect of EVE that is not enhanced by or dependant on pvp. In EVE it's only worth having if it is worth fighting for. There are a literal shitton of empire building sims out there. EVE is mmopvp. Carebear elsewhere? I don't willingly partake of traditional PvP, I actively avoid it but I acknowledge that Eve is a PvP game and that PvP may eventually find me. They'e got to catch me first though, if and when it does happen to me the people involved will get a GF in local or by mail if they manage to catch my pod (which would mean that I cocked up big style). I know of at least one merc that would love to have my corpse in his collection simply because he knows it would be hard to collect. Civilized behaviour is knowing that violence is barbaric, but paying other people to do it is business. Nil mortifi sine lucre.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 258	Posted - 2016.08.16 17:02:05 - [405] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Haulers can bring increased risk and loss to directly increase profits but if AG start impacting gankers ability to gank it will allow more freighters to pass through and deliver cargo. Can't get much lower than it already is. Using the best data we have the chance of getting ganked in your freighter stands at less than 0.01%. There is only 2 organisations left doing this and one of them is funded by charity. Chances of being ganked are so low you might as well say its as safe as you can get without outright banning pvp from highsec. Youre right. The days of CODE killing almost every freighter and Orca that passes through the pipe are dead with Loyal being banned. A lot of this is sensationalized fluff. HTFU
Solecist Project 32175	Posted - 2016.08.16 17:07:59 - [406] - Quote To be fair it always has been sensational fluff. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17901	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:21:12 - [407] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 535	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:26:58 - [408] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have. While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie... A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters.
baltec1 Bat Country Pandemic Legion 17902	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:34:47 - [409] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have. While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie... A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters. Most that die in highsec are killed in wars oddly enough
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 536	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:35:29 - [410] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have. While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie... A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters. Most that die in highsec are killed in wars oddly enough Well that I have no way to track - but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Just saying they don't go to low/null/wh space often enough to actually die more out there
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2203	Posted - 2016.08.16 18:36:39 - [411] - Quote Jonah, first of all that was a pretty decent reply. I never envisaged most people going one on one with the mercs, I was interested in seeing what could be created with a loose group, but the thing is when you do a comparison on what you can do with a small but tight knit fleet with bling fits, the right implants, drugs and OGB and competent logiyou really become a fairly hefty fleet that cannot be taken down even by 20 T1 frigates.. The trick is of course to catch them by surprise on the GTFO ships and fast lockers, but any more than that it will be difficult. The disparity in DPS can be significant, and these players can die very quickly, that being said it really depends how one goes about it. I speak a lot to AG players and players who come into the channel, I found that the vast majority accept that Eve is a PvP game, this concept of people in hisec players wanting to ban hisec PvP is mainly incorrect, the people who call for the ending of hisec PvP are a very small minority. Yes a majority of people do not want to interact with others or become forced to do stuff they do not want to do if it becomes a drag on them, you are quite right, and being in small numbers or alone makes you a lot more vulnerable n Eve. But at the end of the day that is what they want to do, most don't care enough to bother after the initial memory of being ganked has worn off. Something needs to be done to enable those that have a bit more about them to get a bit more spirit, hence the OS I suggested above that something else needs to happen to make them want to work with others, that is why I suggested that CCP has to be very careful with indy structures, if they make it so they cannot be pulled down in 24 hours, I am not sure what will happen to the hisec player base, which is why I suggested to CCP to make one that can be taken down quickly but give others with higher yield that cannot, classic risk and reward. I don't think enough people realise just how fragile this remaining hisec base is. I am waiting to see what comes out from the indy structures, its a key change and I have no idea just what will happen to the hisec base if they cannot be removed within 24 hours, to say I am nervous is a whopping understatement. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 259	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:33:31 - [412] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: baltec1 wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: More freighters, jump freighters, and orcas die everday to pvp in low, null, and wspace than they do to hisec ganks. Always have. While (probably) true of Orcas and Jump Freighters...even a casual glance at the killboards for regular freighters would seem to indicate that that is a blatant lie... A higher percentage of them may die there, because there are so many fewer out there...but the clear majority have been killed in high sec for regular freighters. Most that die in highsec are killed in wars oddly enough Well that I have no way to track - but it wouldn't surprise me at all. Just saying they don't go to low/null/wh space often enough to actually die more out there Actually i dont think you have sufficient proof to back up that freighters and jump freighters dont travel as frequently in null, low, or wspace. One thing to consider is that there are 1090 Hisec systems compared to 817 lowsec, 3524 nullsec, and 2499+ wspace systems. I will admit that hisec, specifically jita / amarr and the pipe between are the lifestream of commerce and trade in new eden... So i would say that when you take into consideration that less freighters die in all of hisec compared to the magnitude that makes up the rest of new eden its fair to say that freighter ganking is in a good place. HTFU
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 759	Posted - 2016.08.16 19:48:23 - [413] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: baltec1 wrote: Dracvlad wrote: That is only Red Frog data and as someone quite rightly pointed out on another thread their max collateral is 1bn, changes the dynamics a lot and makes them not representative of hisec hauling as a whole. Its data from several million gate jumps and they use the exact same rules, mechanics and tools available to everyone. The value of the cargo is set to be unprofitable to gank, so therefore they are not representative of freighter ganking in hisec. That's only true for individual contracts, however multiple contracts are regularly transported together, although it's not recommended and non-RF contracts (eg. From the haulers chsnnel) are often transported together with RF contract packages. You can't tell what Freighter is carrying RF contracts from any other contracts as the Freighter pilots are not members of RF, nor do the Freighter alts directly accept the contracts. So it's very common to be profitable to gank, but flying smart lowers the risk. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7945	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:15:33 - [414] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. If AG proved to groups like Minikuv they they were an actusl threat and capable of stopping ganks then you would see AG doing just that. But you are right... Theres always potential profit when a ganking group targets a freighter. The flipside is that unless the freighter offers payment to AG for helping, theres not much direct profit... Unless you do things like gank their dst, catch their suspect looting freighters, or loot their bump machariels that AG can gank. The loot scooping is especially important, they use a noob ship to scoop through a DST and as most people do not use freighter cans due to the impact on the algorithm for the loot fairy their freighters don't often go suspect. I also pointed out earlier that most AG just do not gank because that would be a wasted character, once -10 you can only gank and as most are indy they want to use taht character for PI or other things. You seem to ignore this issue around ganking as if it is nothing. There are even some players who will tell me I am bad for ganking the gankers, which is kinda funny... We still have the alts though. Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2222	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:28:39 - [415] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Dracvlad wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: You are actually very correct in this. I would counter argue that AG banding together and effectively fighting would generally help every haulers profits. If AG proved to groups like Minikuv they they were an actusl threat and capable of stopping ganks then you would see AG doing just that. But you are right... Theres always potential profit when a ganking group targets a freighter. The flipside is that unless the freighter offers payment to AG for helping, theres not much direct profit... Unless you do things like gank their dst, catch their suspect looting freighters, or loot their bump machariels that AG can gank. The loot scooping is especially important, they use a noob ship to scoop through a DST and as most people do not use freighter cans due to the impact on the algorithm for the loot fairy their freighters don't often go suspect. I also pointed out earlier that most AG just do not gank because that would be a wasted character, once -10 you can only gank and as most are indy they want to use taht character for PI or other things. You seem to ignore this issue around ganking as if it is nothing. There are even some players who will tell me I am bad for ganking the gankers, which is kinda funny... We still have the alts though. We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Solecist Project 32179	Posted - 2016.08.16 20:32:48 - [416] - Quote Dracvlad wrote: We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17473	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:21:18 - [417] - Quote Are ag honestly complaining about ganking something being hard? This might be my favorite thread of the year. =]\|[=
Solecist Project 32181	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:26:04 - [418] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Are ag honestly complaining about ganking something being hard? This might be my favorite thread of the year. Noobs. Back in my days i did ~~worlds collide~~ the blockade* ... (Uphill. Both ways. But no really :P) *been a while... "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Sole Hunter Dot.Inc TRUE VINE 0	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:29:16 - [419] - Quote Dave Day wrote: wall of text You know, you can always surrender and move on.
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 538	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:29:31 - [420] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Actually i dont think you have sufficient proof to back up that freighters and jump freighters dont travel as frequently in null, low, or wspace. One thing to consider is that there are 1090 Hisec systems compared to 817 lowsec, 3524 nullsec, and 2499+ wspace systems. I will admit that hisec, specifically jita / amarr and the pipe between are the lifestream of commerce and trade in new eden... So i would say that when you take into consideration that less freighters die in all of hisec compared to the magnitude that makes up the rest of new eden its fair to say that freighter ganking is in a good place. #1 - I said you were right that Jump Freighters die more in low/null/etc - since that is their primary usage area out there - I only said regular non-jump freighters die more in high sec. #2 - Look at the killboard...it is pretty obvious that significantly more die in high-sec than anywhere else (again, just the regular 4 freighter types) #3 - Pointing out that there are only 1090 high-sec systems vs 6840+ other systems actually makes it 7 times more impressive that more of them die in high sec - so you are actually citing evidence contrary to what you are trying to say with that one #4 - I'm not even disagreeing with you - I think ganking is just fine as-is in relation to freighters and everything else. I'm only disagreeing with your silly assertion that "less freighters die in high sec than outside of high-sec" - because it is clearly false. Whether they die from ganking/wars, I don't really care - most of them clearly die in high-sec, as shown by the killboards. I do not think it is unreasonable for haulers to factor in a 6.25 million isk loss per freighter trip for their eventual, inevitable ganks. I think they need to just suck it up and move on with life, or take precautions to make it less likely (or both). But I also think it is silly to make up random claims to support a case that is already strong - it actually makes it less credible. Stick to the proven facts
Solecist Project 32181	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:33:21 - [421] - Quote I'm sorry, Dirty, but counting numbers of systems is silly. What matters is population count, which changes this considerably. Don't let yourself get fooled. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 262	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:38:19 - [422] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Dracvlad wrote: We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. This is an example of someone with inferior knowledge of mechanics... Granted only a handful of people know what im referring to. HTFU
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 538	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:42:40 - [423] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: I'm sorry, Dirty, but counting numbers of systems is silly. What matters is population count, which changes this considerably. Don't let yourself get fooled. I didn't bring it up - I just pointed out that the way he was using it was silly Population count would work...although the null-blobs raise the population of 0.0 fairly considerably...that one is harder to put firm numbers on. And I did already say the only reason more die in high sec is because the vast majority only fly in high sec. As a percentage, more of the freighters that fly outside of high sec die... But it is still silly/ridiculous to say that "more of them die outside of high sec"...
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17474	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:44:03 - [424] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Dracvlad wrote: We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. This is an example of someone with inferior knowledge of mechanics... Granted only a handful of people know what im referring to. Elaborate =]\|[=
Solecist Project 32181	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:48:11 - [425] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Solecist Project wrote: I'm sorry, Dirty, but counting numbers of systems is silly. What matters is population count, which changes this considerably. Don't let yourself get fooled. I didn't bring it up - I just pointed out that the way he was using it was silly Population count would work...although the null-blobs raise the population of 0.0 fairly considerably...that one is harder to put firm numbers on. And I did already say the only reason more die in high sec is because the vast majority only fly in high sec. As a percentage, more of the freighters that fly outside of high sec die... But it is still silly/ridiculous to say that "more of them die outside of high sec"... Sorry, tired. Probably missed it. And yeah ofc more die in highsec... ... the population / amount of systems is way higher. ... freighters putside hs might actually have an escort. (?) ... more individuals owning them for themselves compared to ... ... people in alliances carrying loads for half the alliance. I can't see how it's not obvious that more die in hs. Maybe i should get sleep. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Herzog Wolfhammer Sigma Special Tactics Group 7946	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:49:26 - [426] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Are ag honestly complaining about ganking something being hard? This might be my favorite thread of the year. I didn't complain. Dracvlad didn't complain. Solecist is not AG. What's wrong with you Ralph? You usually don't post so poorly. Has the game gotten so bad it's soured your mood? Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 538	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:50:24 - [427] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Dracvlad wrote: We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. This is an example of someone with inferior knowledge of mechanics... Granted only a handful of people know what im referring to. Elaborate I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid. Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory...
Solecist Project 32181	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:50:27 - [428] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Dracvlad wrote: We could go gank some freighter wrecks, 2 Catalysts can do it in a 0.5 system if we don't get shot by anyone before CONCORD comes to blap us. No, you can't, because there's a CONCORD blob there... ... just sayjan. This is an example of someone with inferior knowledge of mechanics... Granted only a handful of people know what im referring to. Well, then spit it out. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Solecist Project 32181	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:59:30 - [429] - Quote A positive sidenote... I just now saved a fruit fly from drowning in my radler and put it somewhere where it can dry up again. Silly fruit fly... "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17475	Posted - 2016.08.16 21:59:59 - [430] - Quote Herzog Wolfhammer wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Are ag honestly complaining about ganking something being hard? This might be my favorite thread of the year. I didn't complain. Dracvlad didn't complain. Solecist is not AG. What's wrong with you Ralph? You usually don't post so poorly. Has the game gotten so bad it's soured your mood? Loooooooong day, i may just have been projecting. Alls well now though, back to my old tanked illiterate self =]\|[=
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 541	Posted - 2016.08.16 22:11:19 - [431] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid. Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory... When i was ganking in my tripple volley thrasher with concord on grid ... ... i got two volleys out before i died. That's 4ish seconds iirc. Been a while. I am not aware of the hp of freighter wrecks, but i thought it's more than 2k-ish. Well the 10-ish seconds did come from a ganker who was arguing with me - and I don't care enough to experiment and find out I'm afraid...so take it with a grain of salt... But I"m pretty sure it is what Faylee is referring to in any case edit: Oh and freighter wreck HP I did look up not long ago, so that one I actually do have a number for - 15k hp
Solecist Project 32184	Posted - 2016.08.17 08:04:51 - [432] - Quote Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid. Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory... When i was ganking in my tripple volley thrasher with concord on grid ... ... i got two volleys out before i died. That's 4ish seconds iirc. Been a while. I am not aware of the hp of freighter wrecks, but i thought it's more than 2k-ish. Well the 10-ish seconds did come from a ganker who was arguing with me - and I don't care enough to experiment and find out I'm afraid...so take it with a grain of salt... But I"m pretty sure it is what Faylee is referring to in any case edit: Oh and freighter wreck HP I did look up not long ago, so that one I actually do have a number for - 15k hp Well, we'll never know because it seems she's just air. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 264	Posted - 2016.08.17 12:08:42 - [433] - Quote Solecist Project wrote: Dirty Forum Alt wrote: Solecist Project wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: I actually found this out myself only recently when I posted a thread in the Features & Ideas forum to propose a nerf to CONCORD to compensate for what I perceived to be the problem of having CONCORD already on grid. Apparently even with CONCORD pre-spawned on grid you still get a significant delay before they act. I forget the exact numbers quoted - but it was only something on the order of 10-ish seconds instead of 22....so certainly harder - but doable, in theory... When i was ganking in my tripple volley thrasher with concord on grid ... ... i got two volleys out before i died. That's 4ish seconds iirc. Been a while. I am not aware of the hp of freighter wrecks, but i thought it's more than 2k-ish. Well the 10-ish seconds did come from a ganker who was arguing with me - and I don't care enough to experiment and find out I'm afraid...so take it with a grain of salt... But I"m pretty sure it is what Faylee is referring to in any case edit: Oh and freighter wreck HP I did look up not long ago, so that one I actually do have a number for - 15k hp Well, we'll never know because it seems she's just air. The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs. Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor. HTFU
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 17479	Posted - 2016.08.17 12:15:13 - [434] - Quote Note to self : Dont share secrets with faylee. =]\|[=
Faylee Freir Facetious Indifference Vendetta Mercenary Group 264	Posted - 2016.08.17 12:17:58 - [435] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Note to self : Dont share secrets with faylee. Haha yeah i know im a tease. HTFU
Solecist Project 32190	Posted - 2016.08.17 13:27:21 - [436] - Quote And just air. "That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breaths of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly pulverised by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds." -- Tippia
Omar Alharazaad Nefarious Porpoise 3061	Posted - 2016.08.17 15:01:35 - [437] - Quote Faylee produces results. I can attest to this due to a certain amount of envy occurring during his/her stint in Lords. Battleships were molested. Feelings were hurt. Frigatry was running rampant. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a reluctance to divulge sekrets as being without knowledge. I may judge harshly those I deem unworthy, but on the other hand I will gracefully give credit where I believe it is due. Not saying take it as gospel, I'm just saying the benefit of the doubt perhaps is in order. Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2231	Posted - 2016.08.17 21:21:58 - [438] - Quote Omar Alharazaad wrote: Faylee produces results. I can attest to this due to a certain amount of envy occurring during his/her stint in Lords. Battleships were molested. Feelings were hurt. Frigatry was running rampant. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a reluctance to divulge sekrets as being without knowledge. I may judge harshly those I deem unworthy, but on the other hand I will gracefully give credit where I believe it is due. Not saying take it as gospel, I'm just saying the benefit of the doubt perhaps is in order. I had noted Faylee from before somewhere. I instantly recognised the name, posts with a lot of knowledge which is very evident. Not air at all... I would agree. When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.
Shallanna Yassavi Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 325	Posted - 2016.08.17 22:50:00 - [439] - Quote Faylee Freir wrote: The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs. Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor. You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did. A signature :o
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 549	Posted - 2016.08.17 23:03:36 - [440] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs. Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor. You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did. Well...if you do....don't forget to pre-spawn concord to make him use it
Shae Tadaruwa Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 760	Posted - 2016.08.17 23:10:12 - [441] - Quote Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs. Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor. You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did. If it's the one that allows you to appear to be cloaked without a cloak fit even for a few seconds after you start shooting, then no recording will help you. It's a good glitch, but not something that you can work out without it being explained. Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Dirty Forum Alt Forum Alts Anonymous 550	Posted - 2016.08.17 23:18:43 - [442] - Quote Shae Tadaruwa wrote: Shallanna Yassavi wrote: Faylee Freir wrote: The time to shoot with concord isnt what i was referring to. Im talking about a mechanic literally only 3-4 people know of that is just another tool in the pocket. Just letting you know its out there, but im not going to make it public since i was asked not to share it and its a good mechanic that would just get cries and nerfs. Go to SISI and start messing around if you want to find ways to bend mechanics in your favor. You don't need to explain the mechanic. Now that we know it exists and that you how to use it, all we have to do is fly something shiny enough for you to use it, while we record as many details as possible. Then we take it to Sisi and try what we think you did. If it's the one that allows you to appear to be cloaked without a cloak fit even for a few seconds after you start shooting, then no recording will help you. It's a good glitch, but not something that you can work out without it being explained. While true - if one recorded someone using that glitch (particularly if you did so a few times in a row) - one could get the person using it banned... Which could be a decent consolation prize.

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