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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.22 12:57:00 -
[181]
I mean really who would it harm for these ships to get a boost to agility, so they can do what they had been doing for ages before the patch?
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If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 15:32:00 -
[182]
Well, depends what you mean with "for ages".
Pre-rev (aka RMR, 4-5 months ago, no improved istabs, no rigs) best you could get for an viator was an inertia reduction to 61% using 3 LH nanos.
With rev 1.0 - 1.3 you could get with 3 LH istabs and 2 agility rigs an inertia reduction to 30%.
With rev 1.4 (aka now) you can get with 3 LH istabs and 2 mass rigs an inertia reduction to 43%.
Basically, right now you can achieve a far better agility than you could in red moon rising (where I cannot remember having seen one "blockade runners are useless" thread).
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Ditscher
Intergalactic Serenity
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Posted - 2007.04.22 15:57:00 -
[183]
just change her bonus to let her enter warp speed faster, that way it can be used at it should be and carriers and force recon ships can do their jobs as intended, too.
atm its only good to hunt other ships because of the +2 warp strenght and no penalty to your scanning.
T.u.-. |
Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.22 16:33:00 -
[184]
Edited by: Ling Xiao on 22/04/2007 16:32:32
 Originally by: Aramendel
Well, depends what you mean with "for ages".
Pre-rev (aka RMR, 4-5 months ago, no improved istabs, no rigs) best you could get for an viator was an inertia reduction to 61% using 3 LH nanos.
With rev 1.0 - 1.3 you could get with 3 LH istabs and 2 agility rigs an inertia reduction to 30%.
With rev 1.4 (aka now) you can get with 3 LH istabs and 2 mass rigs an inertia reduction to 43%.
Basically, right now you can achieve a far better agility than you could in red moon rising (where I cannot remember having seen one "blockade runners are useless" thread).
I've never used rigs on my Transports, and I've noticed a big difference in agility ever since the nano nerf hit, on both my Viator and my Crane. Saying they're more agile now than they were in RMR without rigs is just plain wrong.
I'm talking about the difference in getting-to-warp between a frigate and a cruiser. It's literally the difference between life and death when you meet hostile ships.
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If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 18:36:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Ling Xiao
I've never used rigs on my Transports, and I've noticed a big difference in agility ever since the nano nerf hit, on both my Viator and my Crane. Saying they're more agile now than they were in RMR without rigs is just plain wrong.
I'm talking about the difference in getting-to-warp between a frigate and a cruiser. It's literally the difference between life and death when you meet hostile ships.
They are. 2 LH istabs and 1 t2 nano are a reduction to 57.8% of the old inertia, which is (slightly) more than you could achieve in RMR.
People are a bit spoiled by the uber agility of rev 1.0-1.3, but compared to RMR blockade runners really did not get any nerf.
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Et alii
The Syndicate.
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Posted - 2007.04.22 19:18:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Ling Xiao
I've never used rigs on my Transports, and I've noticed a big difference in agility ever since the nano nerf hit, on both my Viator and my Crane. Saying they're more agile now than they were in RMR without rigs is just plain wrong.
I'm talking about the difference in getting-to-warp between a frigate and a cruiser. It's literally the difference between life and death when you meet hostile ships.
They are. 2 LH istabs and 1 t2 nano are a reduction to 57.8% of the old inertia, which is (slightly) more than you could achieve in RMR.
People are a bit spoiled by the uber agility of rev 1.0-1.3, but compared to RMR blockade runners really did not get any nerf.
Your numbers on paper might seem right to u but the fact still remains that after the nano nerf even with i-stabs time-to-warp is more then doubled, so u can post numbers here all day long trying to argue that ur right while we still know that the ship in reality is much much slower then it ever was.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.22 19:45:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Aramendel on 22/04/2007 19:44:09
Originally by: Et alii
Your numbers on paper might seem right to u but the fact still remains that after the nano nerf even with i-stabs time-to-warp is more then doubled, so u can post numbers here all day long trying to argue that ur right while we still know that the ship in reality is much much slower then it ever was.
Not really.
Compared to rev 1.0 - 1.3 it's about a 40% increase for rigless vs rigless or rigged vs rigged version and compared to RMR pretty much the same agility unrigged.
Thats a plain out fact. I did some rather extended testing for ship agility and know the numbers are correct because they mirror the results of practical tests almost exactly. I only ever do something on paper after I verfied it by ingame testing.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.22 21:28:00 -
[188]
You're right. I'm dumb.
__________
If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Et alii
The Syndicate.
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Posted - 2007.04.23 00:26:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Aramendel
Edited by: Aramendel on 22/04/2007 20:06:12
Originally by: Et alii
Your numbers on paper might seem right to u but the fact still remains that after the nano nerf even with i-stabs time-to-warp is more then doubled, so u can post numbers here all day long trying to argue that ur right while we still know that the ship in reality is much much slower then it ever was.
Not really.
Compared to rev 1.0 - 1.3 it's about a 40% increase for rigless vs rigless or rigged vs rigged version and compared to RMR pretty much the same agility unrigged.
Thats a plain out fact. I did some rather extended testing for ship agility and know the numbers are correct because they mirror the results of practical tests almost exactly. I only ever do something on paper after I verfied it by ingame testing.
Inertia reduction does 1:1 correspond to your ship agility. You can test this easily - take a slow ship and time how long it needs from 0-100% speed (in a straight line). Add an LH istab on it (-20% inertia) and do the same. It will reach that speed in around 80% of that time (give or take a few percentages due to lag & incorrect time measurement).
Note: you could also use time to warp as measurement factor, but I would recommend against it because it has more room for errors. It simply takes not enough time, accellerating to warp speed happens around 3 times faster than accellerating to 100% speed. A 2-3 second time difference due to lag and timing errors has a far greater effect for a time of 10 seconds than for a time of 30 seconds.
So.
LH Nanos gave in RMR an inertia reduction of -15%. 0.85¦ is 0.614.
LH istabs give a -20% inertia reduction, although have a stacking penality. 3 still gives a reduction to 0.586 of the old inertia, though. You can now simply read it up from the ship stats since they made the agility modifier visible. A bigger inertia reduction than in RMR (although without a base speed boost).
You can test everything I said but the old intertia reduction % of nanos in RMR (if you cannot remember it) without any problems.
From the effect of the modules there is really no difference to RMR. The only possible way how bloackade runners could achieve a smaller maximum agility now than in RMR is if CCP changed their base agility mod since then. No idea there, but I find that relatively unlikely.
Before rigs with was put in game with 3 local nanos my viator had aabout 3 sec time to get from cloaked to in warp, after the changes meaning now it takes with 3 local i-stabs about 7 seconds to do the same thing, now u can throw how many numbers u want at that fact and it still won't change.
I can't explain the reason for it beeing slower but it is slower now then it was before, they might have changed the agility when rigs was released based on a nano fitted BR hence the problem comes now with the nano nerf but i don't know, this was why my original question to get some form of confirmation from the devs on this matter.
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agrajag119
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Posted - 2007.04.23 04:18:00 -
[190]
one word. Mass.
That is what is causing the increase in time to warp
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.23 12:08:00 -
[191]
Originally by: agrajag119
one word. Mass.
That is what is causing the increase in time to warp
I'm still a little confused. I'm _fairly_ sure that before the nano/istab changes my Crane was rather nippy, and would warp _fairly_ quick. But since, and especially after them being 'rebalanced', it's been a sluggish slug. (Yes, ok, it's a Caldari ship, but it should still be _fairly_ nippy).
And Cranes definitely still need that extra P/G.
I've not seen many blockade runnners ... well at all really. But especially recently, when you're 'out performed' in terms of blockade running by a carrier, out-tanked/outstabbed by a DST, and if you've got an escort, well, freighters are tough enough to take a _bit_ of incoming fire (long enough for your escorts to cover you/start shield transferring at least).
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kill0rbunny
Alpha-Hirogen
The Pentagram
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Posted - 2007.04.23 13:29:00 -
[192]
My suggestion to making blockade runners viable again is giving it the ability to fit a covert ops cloaking device.
The drone region people would totally appreciate such a feature i believe.
Pew Pew!
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Khajit Smitty
Minmatar
MisFunk Inc.
Frontline.
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Posted - 2007.04.23 16:13:00 -
[193]
Have to agree, my alts viator is not what it used to be, hardly a blockade runner.
In fact i have always been confused by Transport ships skill bonus.
They deffinetly need looking into to make them a specialized ship with an actual purpose.
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Suzy Creamcheesz
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Posted - 2007.04.23 16:22:00 -
[194]
viator and other blockade runners should drop the rep bonus for something more usefull. Maybe an agility bonus or speed bonus.
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Tista
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Posted - 2007.04.23 17:17:00 -
[195]
CCP should remove 0km warps and instas to gates.. make it so speed actualy effects gameplay other than combat.
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My sig was stolen from some website.. leet!
The true Industrial capital ship! |
Sebastien LeReparteur
Minmatar
SpaceTravelers Freelance Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.23 18:05:00 -
[196]
Blockade Runners are now called carriers and the T2 hauler is a fire place mantle decoration now.
See CCP knew what they where doing they made T2 haulers obsolete so we could look at them and say wow what a nice useless ship!
:)
I found only 1 good job for them and it was ammo ferry for dead space... then a realized the other T2 was so much better at the job.
T2 Blockade Runners have joined the useless ship list.
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It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone... |
Mighty Dread
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.23 20:42:00 -
[197]
I gotta chime in here. With all these improvements being made to combat ships including new ships it's time the haulers and transports got some love too. There has to be a way for people to move a decent quantity of goods through these increasing hostile times. I mean hell why do you think sells are so cheap and buys so high in low sec? Because nobody is foolish enough to risk a ship + fittings for a couple of mil tops flying in and out of low sec.
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Noobie Noobsen
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:39:00 -
[198]
change br bonus to inertia, speed or mass reduction or anything, that makes it usefull again. nobody was complaining of them beforer the patch. and dont say something like "arrange with the changes and adapt", because that would mean just dont use it anymore and chosse other ships to do the blockade running job (force recons, carriers)
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Ohdows
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Posted - 2007.04.24 07:55:00 -
[199]
They have to make it possible for us to get things out of lo/no-sec. that is what keeps me in high. what good is 500 mill of loot if i cant sell it?
if they want us to go to 0.0 we have to be able to move our things relatilvey safetly. (not that BR should be uncatchable, just hard to catch. should have resonable chance of survival against a standard gate camp)
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sorry for any misspelling or type errors
(actualy i am dyslectic... so i wont apologise) |
Madame Foster
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Posted - 2007.04.24 08:59:00 -
[200]
use carriers ffs
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Sen Goku
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.04.24 10:51:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Madame Foster
use carriers ffs
Ok yeah, you gonna buy me one? 
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.24 11:13:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Madame Foster
use carriers ffs
I do.
But ya'know, Blockade runners are like my first love. Sure, I'll see other women, but there's still a special place in my heart, for my Crane, that got me into an MC vid, back when Borealis was being built.
You're entirely correct though. In these days of freighters and carriers, transport ships are basically obselete - if you have a large cargo to move, and can escort it, you bring a freighter. If you have a cargo you want to move securely and fast, you bring a carrier.
Hey, now there's a thought. Jumpdrive for my Crane please!
Actually, I'd really love a Jumpdrive freighter. That would be really cool.
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ManniXXX
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.24 13:30:00 -
[203]
Well, while we wait could we have a bit of discussion on the best current setup for a BR? I'm talking Istabs/nanos coupled with mass/agility rigs. What's the best setup anyones found so far? My Prowler is running 2 agility rigs and 2 istabs but I'm sure I'm not getting the most out of my slots with the stacking penalties and all. I was thinking about replacing either the rigs or the mods with mass reduction or maybe do a 1 rig 1 module each setup spreading the penalties out a bit.
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Sen Goku
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.04.24 14:12:00 -
[204]
Last time I used one think I had:
High - Proto cloak
Mids - 2x Invunras (tech 1 or 2) YT overcharged MWD
Lows - I-stab/nano, or sometimes an extra WCS if I thought it
was gonna be an especially nasty trip 
Rigs - one mass reduction, one agility.
Obviously sucked cap real fast, but if you weren't out by then it was over anyway.
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ManniXXX
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.24 17:42:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Sen Goku
Last time I used one think I had:
High - Proto cloak
Mids - 2x Invunras (tech 1 or 2) YT overcharged MWD
Lows - I-stab/nano, or sometimes an extra WCS if I thought it
was gonna be an especially nasty trip
Rigs - one mass reduction, one agility.
Obviously sucked cap real fast, but if you weren't out by then it was over anyway.
Yeah, proto cloak is a must as is mwd. Your running what I thought might be best. The fact you can't remove rigs without destroying them doesn't make experimenting with setups easy :(
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.04.24 23:15:00 -
[206]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 24/04/2007 23:13:35
Originally by: ManniXXX
Originally by: Sen Goku
Last time I used one think I had:
High - Proto cloak
Mids - 2x Invunras (tech 1 or 2) YT overcharged MWD
Lows - I-stab/nano, or sometimes an extra WCS if I thought it
was gonna be an especially nasty trip
Rigs - one mass reduction, one agility.
Obviously sucked cap real fast, but if you weren't out by then it was over anyway.
Yeah, proto cloak is a must as is mwd. Your running what I thought might be best. The fact you can't remove rigs without destroying them doesn't make experimenting with setups easy :(
No, but the test server does :) At least, assuming rigs are seeded these days.
I tend to use a Crane with:
Improved Cloak
10mn AB, med shield booster 2x invulns fields
nanos
I think nanos has the best effect on maneuverability and speed, but testing 'time to warp' is annoying. One day I'll bother to have a look at the logserver for accurate timing.
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ManniXXX
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.04.25 01:17:00 -
[207]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Edited by: James Lyrus on 24/04/2007 23:13:35
Originally by: ManniXXX
Originally by: Sen Goku
Last time I used one think I had:
High - Proto cloak
Mids - 2x Invunras (tech 1 or 2) YT overcharged MWD
Lows - I-stab/nano, or sometimes an extra WCS if I thought it
was gonna be an especially nasty trip
Rigs - one mass reduction, one agility.
Obviously sucked cap real fast, but if you weren't out by then it was over anyway.
Yeah, proto cloak is a must as is mwd. Your running what I thought might be best. The fact you can't remove rigs without destroying them doesn't make experimenting with setups easy :(
No, but the test server does :) At least, assuming rigs are seeded these days.
I tend to use a Crane with:
Improved Cloak
10mn AB, med shield booster 2x invulns fields
nanos
I think nanos has the best effect on maneuverability and speed, but testing 'time to warp' is annoying. One day I'll bother to have a look at the logserver for accurate timing.
Well I found this formula on a different thread that is supposed to equate to time to warp in seconds:
Inertia Modifier x 1.61 x (Mass/1,000,000)
I don't know where the 1.61 comes from but from what I can tell it seems to work. This could help loads in working out what setup works best.
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Ohdows
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Posted - 2007.04.25 08:53:00 -
[208]
Originally by: ManniXXX
Well I found this formula on a different thread that is supposed to equate to time to warp in seconds:
Inertia Modifier x 1.61 x (Mass/1,000,000)
I don't know where the 1.61 comes from but from what I can tell it seems to work. This could help loads in working out what setup works best.
problem is it dosnt take aligntime into consideration, or?
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sorry for any misspelling or type errors
(actualy i am dyslectic... so i wont apologise) |
Aramendel
Amarr
Queens of the Stone Age
Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.04.25 09:04:00 -
[209]
No, but it doesn't matter because after a jump you do not need to allign.
Your ships shows like it is facing into a direction, but in reality it is facing into none. Whatver direction you first give a movement (or warp to command) after a jump is your starting direction.
Basically your ship needs only to acellerate to 80% (or was it 75%?) speed in a straight line. It will go into warp to an object which seems right in front of it as fast as to one which seems 180¦ behind it.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.25 10:33:00 -
[210]
Originally by: ManniXXX
Well I found this formula on a different thread that is supposed to equate to time to warp in seconds:
Inertia Modifier x 1.61 x (Mass/1,000,000)
I don't know where the 1.61 comes from but from what I can tell it seems to work. This could help loads in working out what setup works best.
1.61 comes from comes from this.
Acceleration formula:
V(t) = Vmax*(1-e^-(t / (A*M)))
Where A = Inertia Modifier and M = Mass/1.000.000 Breaking out "t" get you ->
t = -ln(1-(V/Vmax))*A*M
The ship warp at 80% of top speed, that gives us V/Vmax = 0.8 ->
T = -ln(0.2)*A*M and then we have -ln(0.2) = 1.61 so the final formula becomes ->
T = 1.61*A*M
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A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
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