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We the undersigned protest suicide ganking and request changes.

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Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Tressia You obviously did not understand my statement. snip I seem to have understood what you said: Originally by: Tressia This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. You are incorrect, it is not griefing as I explained in my post. How common it is has no effect on wether it is griefing or not. Why shouldn't freighters drop loot when all other ships do? And a fix like this will make a big positive difference to a lot of people. Pretty annoying to pop a freighter which logs and get nothing for it. Yes I'm quite confident Dev's sit thinking on ways to cause players pain.
Pussey Spankratchet	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:40:00 - [62] Originally by: FatChance Agree with what has already been posted: Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Totaly agree here on non-payement if used for illegal activity. There is a clause in alot of motor insurances for just this reason.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:48:00 - [63] Originally by: Turas Kain ...stuff YAY, someone griefing my posts I already see what side of this discussion you are on so of course nothing I say will be accepted by you. Good thing I'm not trying to convince you of anything I'm just pointing out how "I" see it and so could care less what you have to say in regards to my comments. Popping freighters in high sec without a war dec is griefing in my eyes. Wow, I feel liberated that I can have an opinion and no one can take that away, even those pesky post griefers
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:00:00 - [64] Yup, you got me there - by your opinion I'm probably a griefer. My opinion could be you are a small jar of orange zest marmalade of course. It does not change the fact your are probably not
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:35:00 - [65] Originally by: FatChance Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Agreed. This also highlights the problems (as mentioned) with meta-gaming, especially the ubiquitous use of noob-corped alts to act with complete anonymity and without any risk to your main. Encouraging this is a poor policy on the part of CCP.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.28 04:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Tressia You obviously did not understand my statement. snip I seem to have understood what you said: Originally by: Tressia This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. You are incorrect, it is not griefing as I explained in my post. How common it is has no effect on wether it is griefing or not. Why shouldn't freighters drop loot when all other ships do? Because they don't get module slots, cannot drop or pick up cans in space, cannot dock or interface with a POS like the rest of the ships in the game. And a fix like this will make a big positive difference to a lot of people. Pretty annoying to pop a freighter which logs and get nothing for it. Yes I'm quite confident Dev's sit thinking on ways to cause players pain. Your sarcasm may be closer to the truth than you know.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 05:19:00 - [67] Insurace should never payout if you are killed by Concord. My car insurace doesn't pay if I damage my car while using it to rob a bank. Snip for trolling - Timmeh - 27/3/07 My first mod edit.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:21:00 - [68] I vote for letting freighters jet-can stuff and make drop-offs and pick-ups from POS's as compensation for this new loot dropping ability.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:37:00 - [69] Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? /me starts training the alt for remote repair...
Kerosene Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:47:00 - [70] imo it's an exploit. The drones should get ECM'd as well as the aggressors and tbh I'd petition as such. __ I really don't need BoB propaganda here any more. Let's embrace yiffy.
Lord Hentacle	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:52:00 - [71] To the OP: Has it ever occured to you that CCP may not have intended any of the behaviour that gets played out in EVE every day? They've said, over and over again, that all they did was build a big sandbox, impose some game rules via mechanics, and impose some social rules to prevent personal attacks on the players (not the characters). I doubt they sat down in 2001 and said, "Hmmm, let's make sure we design a system so people can suicide gank." I suspect they were probably rather surprised when the first person did that and made a good profit from doing so. I'll even go so far as to imagine the reaction was something like, "They did what? Really? And made how much? Cool!" Let's use a little bit of logic here. The EVE universe is populated by pilots who have clones. Those clones are designed to replace a dead pilot within moments of their death, with memories and skills that typically go right up to the moment of their death. They even use these clones to jump across the galaxy faster than they could travel even WITH FTL jump drives. If that's the case, why would a pilot NOT be willing to risk a relatively low cost ship and the disorienting effects of being clone jumped at the instant of death, in order to make more money than they can make normally in months of piloting? Suicide gankers are not the problem. Pilots who refuse to learn how to defend themselves against that tactic are the problem. Hopefully, they'll learn or be weeded out soon.
Tiuwaz Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? /me starts training the alt for remote repair... remote hull reppers dont exist, go buy a clue or better start playing the game the only thing that needs changing is that there should be no insurance payout if you get killed by concord, it makes no sense whatsoever ___________________________________
Arvalds Bank	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:19:00 - [73] Edited by: Arvalds Bank on 28/03/2007 07:15:36 Originally by: Creed Richards Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere I do own a freighter sir, but I've only used it once in that manner, and it's not only freighter pilots who are affected by suicide ganking. It is based on principle that I protest this. But let me ask you this, if Concord cannot protect pilots in high sec, what's the point? CCP might as well set all system sec status to 0.4 to 0.0 to make it clear just how vulnerable we are. ok think of it like this if you want to go kill anyone the police dont know your going to do it beforehand (most of the time anyways) so they can only catch you AFTER you have killed someon , same with in eve concord cant kill the pepole who are going to kill you before they do they can only kill themback
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Originally by: FatChance Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Agreed. This also highlights the problems (as mentioned) with meta-gaming, especially the ubiquitous use of noob-corped alts to act with complete anonymity and without any risk to your main. Encouraging this is a poor policy on the part of CCP. What about all the noob corp alts flying the damn freighters? hmm? should we take their insurance away because they are using the noob corp to keep them safe from wars they fight with their mains? What is so hard about defending a freighter.. what is so crazy about the idea that billions and billions of isk should be gaurded by a few logistics ships... You know if someone aggresses in high sec you can shoot them, if they steal from your corp mate you can shoot them... oh wait.. all the freighters are in noob corps so they are war dec proof OH WAIT NOW I SEE IT. ITS CCP'S WAY OF EVENING THE SCORE WITH ALL THE ALTS HIDING IN NOOB CORPS. Killing a freighter in high sec is not easy. Keeping one alive is. Just use a scout for gods sakes... or fly with some logistics ships to rep you until concord dispatches the threat... its not rocket surgery. Hiding in noob corps and trucking all your hard earned (or in the case of Outbreak killing a bob freighter, deceitfully earned) isk around high sec with impunity is not what eve is about. If you lose a freighter in high sec its really no ones fault but your own... I like this new change... It will make things interesting in the next few months, sadly I can see the price of Dominix's rising again Bring on the Freighter Kills... the addition of loot makes it even more worthwhile, So insure your freighter... its not that expensive... and dont fly what you cant afford to lose. Make multiple trips... unless you really **** someone off then they will cargo scan you to see if its worthwhile killing your freighter. Suicide ganking is nothing new, making a decent profit from it would be....
Horus Dark	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:40:00 - [75] didnt bother reading the intire post. As said valuable cargo should be protected. However i am against peeps with bilions isk ganking noob01 who just spend all his cash to buy his first frig. But its hard to solve that without hurting diffrent parts of the game.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:07:00 - [76] Originally by: umop 3pisdn So insure your freighter... its not that expensive... and dont fly what you cant afford to lose. Make multiple trips... unless you really **** someone off then they will cargo scan you to see if its worthwhile killing your freighter. Suicide ganking is nothing new, making a decent profit from it would be.... Insure your Freighter? You're kidding right? Insuring a Freighter is a worse deal than insuring a HAC or Hulk. Insure my 900 mil Freighter for around 150 - 200 mil and get back maybe 500 mil? Wait...gets worse...lost my 5 billion cargo to boot. Please...insurance on that loss is a joke. As for remote repping forget it. Have you watched the video of the freighter gank? It took 20 seconds from the moment the freighter appeared till its death and that includes lock time. Actual time to kill is more like 15 seconds. So, they knocked off roughly 183,000 hitpoints in 15 seconds or something more than 12,200 DPS. What kind of remote repping system will keep up with that?
Le Cook Amarr Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:18:00 - [77] Originally by: Humpalot Quote: As for hauler ganking, having done it myself more then once, dont make it worthwile to be ganked and put a little effort in a tank and dont go afk. Tell me how I tank a Freighter? Train Shield Management and Shield Operation, Maybee your Passive Shieldtank holds
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:26:00 - [78] It's very very simple. It is down to the player to ensure that any high value goods that would encourage one or more suicide "ganker(s)" are well protected and there are plenty of means to do so. - Move small items in very fast ships (makes it nearly impossible for any scouts to scan you and determine if you're just in a hurry or have somthing of value and it's very unlikely someone will risk losing their ship and mods to concord for a possibly empty frigate). - Fit whatever mods you can to increase your ships shields and armour (if you have spare isk having a slave set or even part a partial set + hardwirings and maybe rigs). Also look into the transport ships (t2 indies) which come with better resistences. It's amazing how many times when someone complains about suicide attacks in high sec space it turns out they were moving several billion isk in goods in a paper thin indy with no protection at all. - Either have some friends or pay someone to fly with your ship and run remote reps and/or logistic drones when someone targets you in high sec. - Avoid the main hubs if possible. Most suicide attacks go on in the busiest systems where there is the highest chance of encountering high value goods in poorly defended ships. While it may mean a few extra jumps plotting a route around main hubs you don't need to go to helps reduce the risks considerably. As people have already said, high sec space is SAFER, that doesn't make it safe. Use some common sense and you'll be fine.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Wild Rho It's very very simple. It is down to the player to ensure that any high value goods that would encourage one or more suicide "ganker(s)" are well protected and there are plenty of means to do so. - Move small items in very fast ships (makes it nearly impossible for any scouts to scan you and determine if you're just in a hurry or have somthing of value and it's very unlikely someone will risk losing their ship and mods to concord for a possibly empty frigate). - Fit whatever mods you can to increase your ships shields and armour (if you have spare isk having a slave set or even part a partial set + hardwirings and maybe rigs). Also look into the transport ships (t2 indies) which come with better resistences. It's amazing how many times when someone complains about suicide attacks in high sec space it turns out they were moving several billion isk in goods in a paper thin indy with no protection at all. - Either have some friends or pay someone to fly with your ship and run remote reps and/or logistic drones when someone targets you in high sec. - Avoid the main hubs if possible. Most suicide attacks go on in the busiest systems where there is the highest chance of encountering high value goods in poorly defended ships. While it may mean a few extra jumps plotting a route around main hubs you don't need to go to helps reduce the risks considerably. As people have already said, high sec space is SAFER, that doesn't make it safe. Use some common sense and you'll be fine. All this can only come from someone who has never had to haul much more than a few mods before. 1) We are talking about freighters. They positively suck to fly. If I have a tiny bit ot move then it will be in something else. 2) Again we are on about freighters. No mods. No rigs. No nothing except a monster cargo hold. Transport ships and indies are not a fair option. It'd take my Iteron-V more than 20 hauls to move what I can move in one haul of my freighter. 3) Remote rep? See my previous post. Maybe with a fleet it would help but not going to help with a few friends along. 4) There are chokpoints all over and pirates know where they are. Yes you can re-route to an extent but not always. Additionally you may have to go somewhere for whatever it is you are after. Not a lot of choice beyond skipping it altogether.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:42:00 - [80] Its kinda difficult to fill 900k m3 with things not being worth a suicide gank attack. I am not entirely against the possibility for such attacks tho, but i think it should require more than 15 bs pilots to do it sucessfully. Currently its kind of a "win"-button for any decent pirate corp.
TerrorWOLF J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:46:00 - [81] Oh good let the freighter hunting commence. Broken Risk vs Reward 4TW. Freighter pilot: Risk: - Losing freighter, 900 mill + 400 mill insurance = 600-700 mill pay out, 0 - a few bill in cargo Reward: - None !! Maybe being abel to play the game? (Makes me wonder am i being payed to play the game??) PS: No scouts do now work, you do not know if everyone in local will jump to gate as soon as freighter jumps in, freighter has no chance of escape do to long warp time. Escort wont help because freighter dies to fast Hunters: Risk: - None !!! The lost sec. status can be regained in less then 2 hours. The ships lost to concord are repaid from insurance. You get modules for free from NPC drops. Reward: - Every thing that is left in the cargo 0 - a few bill. PS: If hunters put in 2 minuets of planing freighter has no chance of escape. Welcome to the new EVE experience. May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
Dr Aryandi Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:00:00 - [82] Originally by: TerrorWOLF Oh good let the freighter hunting commence. Broken Risk vs Reward 4TW. Freighter pilot: Risk: - Losing freighter, 900 mill + 400 mill insurance = 600-700 mill pay out, 0 - a few bill in cargo Reward: - None !! Maybe being abel to play the game? (Makes me wonder am i being payed to play the game??) PS: No scouts do now work, you do not know if everyone in local will jump to gate as soon as freighter jumps in, freighter has no chance of escape do to long warp time. Escort wont help because freighter dies to fast Hunters: Risk: - None !!! The lost sec. status can be regained in less then 2 hours. The ships lost to concord are repaid from insurance. You get modules for free from NPC drops. Reward: - Every thing that is left in the cargo 0 - a few bill. PS: If hunters put in 2 minuets of planing freighter has no chance of escape. Welcome to the new EVE experience. Well said. I fly my freighter around and I used to use it to haul battleships/battlecruisers around to various markets. And no I'm not in an alt corp, I am in my own corp. Now I am waiting until things settle down and I can work out what the max value to safely haul is - but it's almost certainly so low that it's no longer worth my time. So I guess my billion investment in a freighter gets used to haul trit around. At the very least switch a load of the freighter's structure HP to armour/shield ones (or add armour/shield ones). You can then use command ships in gang to get armour resist bonusses, use remote reps rather than paying a fortune to repair, etc, etc. Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:05:00 - [83] i just worked out how to protect a freighter from suicide dominixes. you need a wing man in a smart bomb abaddon yup, he loses his abaddon to concord, but he takes out all the drones with him. if you get it right, he wont even hit the freighter with his smarties im thinking mwd, lots of resists and plates, highs full of smarties. if nothing else, be damn fun
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:10:00 - [84] Originally by: umop 3pisdn What is so hard about defending a freighter.. It's not that it's hard. It's that it's not possible. Freighters are not treated the same as any other ship in the game in a number of important areas. Willfully ignoring this and pretending that they are combat viable is just not reasonable. Combine this with the giggling no-place-is-safe alt "tactics" (exploits) of sganking ships in all security zones and, as far as I am concerned, you've moved from PvP to GvP. If I am prevented by game mechanics from fighting back, defending myself or even taking revenge, then I expect those exact same game mechanics to protect me. Finding a way around that is (ab)using game mechanics to your advantage and my detriment. Personally I call that a problem, label it however you like.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:31:00 - [85] I approve of "suicide ganking". It helps remove the bizarre misconception some people seem to have that there are or should be "safe" areas in EVE.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:47:00 - [86] Edited by: Wild Rho on 28/03/2007 10:47:14 Originally by: Humpalot All this can only come from someone who has never had to haul much more than a few mods before. 1) We are talking about freighters. They positively suck to fly. If I have a tiny bit ot move then it will be in something else. I spend a hell of alot of time moving goods from capital components to trade goods in a freighter so don't be so quick to make assumptions. It's also not unknown that many people WILL move even small expensive mods in freighters becuase until recently no one would be willing to expend the number of ships on a freighter suicide run when there is no chance of loot dropping. Originally by: Humpalot 2) Again we are on about freighters. No mods. No rigs. No nothing except a monster cargo hold. Transport ships and indies are not a fair option. It'd take my Iteron-V more than 20 hauls to move what I can move in one haul of my freighter. No but there are slave implants and armoured/siege warfare gang skills. Remember, you don't need to tank them, you just need to last longer than them. My above post was a more universal approach than a freighter specific one in any case. Originally by: Humpalot 3) Remote rep? See my previous post. Maybe with a fleet it would help but not going to help with a few friends along. Yes it would, especially with a freighter since it has a nice large hp buffer to give remote support time to act. As I said above, you simply have to outlast them while concord does the job. Remote reps on logistic cruisers are much more effective than many people would give credit for and logistic drones shouldn't be discounted either. Adding to what I said in the previous quote you can also have a ship with gang mods to boost the ships resistances (and gang skills boosting hps) as well, further increasing your durability. Yes it's a fair commitment for simply moving some goods, however it's down to the player to determine if their cargo is worth the effort or whether they'd prefer to take their chances with suicide squads. The tools have been provided, it's up the players to decide to use them or not. Originally by: Humpalot 4) There are chokpoints all over and pirates know where they are. Yes you can re-route to an extent but not always. Additionally you may have to go somewhere for whatever it is you are after. Not a lot of choice beyond skipping it altogether. That's why I said "where possible". No you can't always cut the danger zones out of your routes but you can make an attempt to minimize it where you can. As for going somewhere, that's only an issue if someone knows where you're going and what your carrying which is only possibly if you have given that information out to someone (in which case you're just asking for trouble). In the end it's true that if an enemy is really determined to kill your freighter then there isn't alot you can do about it (if they are willing to commit to those kinds of loses). In that case you would need to ask why someone is willing to losing so many ships just to kill yours.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:59:00 - [87] "By the way, it makes no sense to have any high sec systems if one entity can take advantage of the war dec system to practically make no high sec area safe (relatively)." Um, what else are war decs for?
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:01:00 - [88] Originally by: FatChance Agree with what has already been posted: Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Until some miner gets "exploited" into concordokken...?
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:02:00 - [89] Remove the insurance payout for criminally flagged people. Yes, also no basic insurance payout. That should fix risk vs. reward for the 'ganker' already. Well, and since every criminal gets jammed by concord, drones could get jammed, too. They are jam'able, so why not. Problem solved, or not ? ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:17:00 - [90] I just gotta aska few questions here. 1. doesnt freighters get bonuses from cmd skills ? higher resist and faster speed ? 2. Why not have a couple of friends in remote repping ships along ? Yes they put out a lot of dmg but seeing that 3 logistic ships could probably rep long enough for concord to finish the pirates of before the pop the freighter. And if possible combine this with question 1 for greater success. 3. Since when did eve become a single player game? Get some corp mates to help rep you if you are hauling something exspensive. A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. 4. Why should "pirates or any wrong doer" loose their insurance ? We are moving towards simplifying eve to the point that you really dont even need to be at the computer.

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