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We the undersigned protest suicide ganking and request changes.

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Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:54:00 - [1] This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question. But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! Why have you not done anything? But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters. You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide. Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. My 2 cents, God Bless Creed Richards Those that wish to sign this petition, please do.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:59:00 - [2] And what would you do about it? --- Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -ReverendM Rev that took you ages to pick up on.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:00:00 - [3] How do you know CCP aren't trying to figure out a solution? Or maybe it's impossble, without some form of - what some will consider - draconian measure? Like putting paid to 2nd accounts? ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
Sphynix	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:01:00 - [4] This is about frieghters dropping loot. If you can organise a gang of 15+ people, get them all into a BS, get them all killed, for the chance of re-couping their loss on the loot. Then more power to them. What you really need is frieghter sized Secure Containers so that when you do get killed they can't loot or scoop the items. Mind you - when that happens you're gonna spend the next week in an indy emptying that tin :p The only way to make high sec "safe" is to turn off all weapon types on "non hostile" targets. Which would mean you can still be killed by war dec. This would mean that anyone in a newb corp is safe - so for fairness sake should anyone over (let say) 6 months gets kicked out of the corp and forced to start their own? This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs.
Trojanman190 Caldari Entropy Tech. Quantum Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:04:00 - [5] Wait wait... freighters can now drop cans? Someone please confirm if I am reading this correctly.
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Nope not 100% save -- but saver then low sec... there are ways to try not go get ganged in high sec.. put on shield extenders, resistens slots - dont fly around whit a Bip lot of stuff of value at same time.. they normal look at how much you have in cargo vs the price of there ships / mods for a kill. if they gain more out of killing you vs there price of the kill then you are a target.. put in all in a contanior - then it normal get all destroyed if they kill you. and BIG lose for you still yes ... but no gain for them.
Ms E	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Trojanman190 Wait wait... freighters can now drop cans? Someone please confirm if I am reading this correctly. It is live on test - no idea if it made it through the patch. If it is then Private Ears is going to have a field day :p
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:12:00 - [8] Originally by: bogir Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Nope not 100% save -- but saver then low sec... there are ways to try not go get ganged in high sec.. put on shield extenders, resistens slots - dont fly around whit a Bip lot of stuff of value at same time.. they normal look at how much you have in cargo vs the price of there ships / mods for a kill. if they gain more out of killing you vs there price of the kill then you are a target.. put in all in a contanior - then it normal get all destroyed if they kill you. and BIG lose for you still yes ... but no gain for them. And could someone enlighten me before I comment further: can cargo scanners see into containers on your ship? ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:12:00 - [9] Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Who told you that rubbish? I guess you didn't do the basic tutorial, cause from the beginning the tutorial explicitly tells you that you are not totally safe anywhere in EvE. High-sec is just safer than other areas. So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Jotan Veer Wings of Turul Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:16:00 - [10] Originally by: The Pointless And could someone enlighten me before I comment further: can cargo scanners see into containers on your ship? Yes, and they can see into mission plastic wraps also. IBAPMIP (in before any pirate misinformation post)

Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Sphynix This is about frieghters dropping loot. If you can organise a gang of 15+ people, get them all into a BS, get them all killed, for the chance of re-couping their loss on the loot. Then more power to them. What you really need is frieghter sized Secure Containers so that when you do get killed they can't loot or scoop the items. Mind you - when that happens you're gonna spend the next week in an indy emptying that tin :p The only way to make high sec "safe" is to turn off all weapon types on "non hostile" targets. Which would mean you can still be killed by war dec. This would mean that anyone in a newb corp is safe - so for fairness sake should anyone over (let say) 6 months gets kicked out of the corp and forced to start their own? This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs. I will admit, the whole thing about freighters now being profitable targets kind of catalyzed me into posting this. But it's not the only thing. I've heard of haulers being wiped out by suicide gankers, and I believe I've heared even of players in lesser ships being destroyed just becuase if fit the attackers whim. I do not think that is a good way to play. On person suggested what would be done, well, as you said, turning off the ability to fire on non hostile targets is a good start, perhaps with use of beacons at stations and gates. Their field of effect would extend further out the higher the security status went, while in 0.5 it would only cover gates and stations. Yes, this is a PVP game, but is it PVP to greif people in a place where it's supposedly safe? Keep real PVP to low sec and 0.0.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Ling Xiao on 27/03/2007 18:21:13 Hey, if pirate NPCs can infest high-sec for mission runners, then it's about time human players can get in on the action and defy CONCORD even if it's just for 10 seconds at a time edit - the real problem here is that people get insurance payouts when CONCORD kills them, which doesn't really make sense. They defy the law of the empire, it should invalidate their insurance. Better risk vs reward ratio, imo. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:26:00 - [13] Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere I do own a freighter sir, but I've only used it once in that manner, and it's not only freighter pilots who are affected by suicide ganking. It is based on principle that I protest this. But let me ask you this, if Concord cannot protect pilots in high sec, what's the point? CCP might as well set all system sec status to 0.4 to 0.0 to make it clear just how vulnerable we are.
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:27:00 - [14] I like all the pie-rats going "haha tutorial said that 1.0 space is as safe as low sec it says so dont you see it noob!?1" and "haha now you have to protect your freighters in high sec you bunch of farmers and isk hoarders!!!1" Well hi sec is safer....but only for the pie-rats, since concord attacks defenders as well as aggressors, so there is nothing a defender can do to protect himself or his cargo from a pie-rat who WANTS to die and his merry band of alt-thieves. This ironically coincides with the ludicrous notion that a player can actually DEFEND his freighter and its cargo in hi-sec with concord around. What happens if you shoot the alts (which will be in NPC corps)? BOOM you lose ANOTHER ship, but this time to concord. I like the beacon idea. Ive seen them in 0.0 around some gates and their description is interesting. Making Space Lanes using beacons would be a nice addition. Hi sec doesnt have to be completely safe, but thats what wardecs are for you noobs. Suicide ganking with alts is the ONLY 100% safe form of income you can get, and ironically its the people boasting about how hi-sec isnt safe who do it and/or support it. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Sphynix	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:32:00 - [15] High sec isn't safe. If it was then -5 pirates wouldn't be shot at and war decs would have no effect. If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Lets put it another way - if there was no weapons fire at all in high sec: You would have no rats. No war decs. No ore. No Ice. 2 or 3 stations where everything was sold at and everywhere else desolate. Everyone would be in low sec because thats where everything had been moved to and the pirates would be in roaming gangs - you wouldn't stand a chance. But then because 1/3 of the game area is totally empty someone would just remove high sec and you'd be even worse of than before... Or are you suggestion that CONCORD spawns a titan that uses a system-wide DDD that kills anyone with a criminal flag?
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:42:00 - [16] It is safe, for pirates. Its pretty simple. The pirates basically have free reign on who or what they kill with little consequence. If they want to gank that hauler, they gank the hauler. If they want to blow up that mining op, they blow up the mining op. They bring their alts over who are in NPC corps and loot the stuff. Pirates = 1 Player = 0 Oh but the player is upset. He attacks the alts. Concord shows up and the player dies. Pirate = 2 Player = 0 In low sec the player has a chance. He can at least fire back at the alts if he brought friends. Not much of an advantage over hi-sec but it at least changes the odds. It goes from 100% impossible to defend oneselve to maybe 80% impossible (or 0% impossible if the player is in a good group). In Hi sec it is 100% impossible to prevent alts from looting your stuff after a gank. Pie-rats that complain about their -5 sec and 'boohoo I cant suicide gank anymore' are usually too lazy to go and bring their sec back up to a level where they can go back in low sec. Its not hard at all. Actually its pretty easy and profitable. Well in any case, I dare any pie-rat to deny that concord protects them more often than not. Deny that your alts are protected from players by concord. Deny that suicide ganking is not profitable. Unfortunately CCP seems to be encouraging PGP (Player Ganking Player) over PVP these days. They dont care. More alts means more money for them. Same with macros I guess. More alts means more money for them. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Lemen Meringue Cult of Lemen	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:46:00 - [17] Really, your best option right now is to have an ibis alt flying ahead of your freighter, shooting people at every jump through. Suicide ganking is a lot less of an option when Concord is already there.
Destiny Calling Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:54:00 - [18] The only place your truly safe is when your docked and thats good enough for me
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:56:00 - [19] I find it amusing that when suiciders use untouchable alts to pick up the loot, it's bad and should be changed, but when people use THE SAME METHOD stealing loot from the Privateers, it's perfectly fine, and even funny. The carebear's mind is a strange thing. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Trojanman190 Caldari Entropy Tech. Quantum Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:56:00 - [20] If freighters can drop loot then we need to give them med and low slots. Suicide ganking does not have to destroy the freighter to put the hurt on the pilot... do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? Also, if freighters can drop a can on explosion then freighters need to be able to jet cans on their own and pick up cans. If CCP makes it so freighter are viable targets in high sec with no way of defending themselves then something is seriously wrong...

Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Creed Richards Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? CCP don't provide any such rewards, players do. Who decides how there goods should be transported and puts them in a cargo hold? Originally by: Creed Richards Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question. Agreed, these are both 2 completely seperate discussion points, in my opinion. One deals with an area where pretty much anything goes and another where there is a high degree of safety. Originally by: Creed Richards But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! Why have you not done anything? Because your are never supposed to be 100% invulnerable, its a game design point. I sincerly doubt it'll ever change. Originally by: Creed Richards But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters. You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide. Suiciding a freighter isn't exactly a piece of cake you know. Takes a lot of organisation and many pilots, and typically a lot of patience on the part of those pilots. Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Safe yes, 100% untouchable when your in it? No. Originally by: Creed Richards You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. I completely agree that any player has just as much a right to play eve as any other. But any player cannot expect the game to be moulded around what they want. Thats the job of CCP employees. I'd also tend to agree that a bit more protection for freightes in hi-sec may well be required. However as it stands this is the only way to hit 0.0 alliance freighters who hide their freighter alts in NPC corps. So a "bit more protection" does not mean invulnerable. Originally by: Creed Richards Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. Its been repeated time and time again that hi-sec is not supposed to be totally safe. You are supposed to be able to shoot whomever you wish as long as you accept the consequences of such actions. As it stands now the consequences are getting your ship destroyed by CONCORD. Such suicide ganks have existed for a very long time in eve. Saying that this is the same as the entire Eve universe being 0.4 or below is ludicrous. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? A heck of a lot less than a failed suicide freighter gank ;)
Delylah Samson Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:00:00 - [23] Edited by: Delylah Samson on 27/03/2007 18:58:25 For it to pro***ble, the freighter would have to have a ton of goods that would survive. Now, if only the ciding pirates did the looting, they would have a chance of profitting on the booty. BUT you see ciders have this thing caled agression timers, that will kill them if they undock in a ship while the timer is a red type. So now you have to get a ton of hauler pilots. And not just any old hauler pilot one who can fly the best haulers with best expanders to get 40k or more. Even a pilot like that would have to make TWENTY haul runs just to collect 800k of stuff. So you get 10 haulers to do 2 hauls each. So far, you have 25 folks committed to do this type of hunting. How much are they expected to earn for their efforts? Yes, I'm assuming no one is running multiple accounts. Now thats a perfect scenario. Unfortunately, highsec is rife with newbs and what I call battle parasites. Those who loot cans and take the loot from others not involved in the fight. Heck, everyone would try to loot the cans. This would further dilute the potential profits. Now given that some of the best value items are small items, ie bpos, implants and the odd officer item, then even t1 frigs can get into the feeding frenzy at a dead freighter. Chances are, the pirate teams would cash in very little for only a small fraction before the freighter wreak is empty. The irnony is that the pirates would also wind up losing their wreaks to looters as well. The only place I see such a pirating operation be successful is one where the newb and passerby population is low. Then again, all the freighter pilot needs is a gangmate who will web him as he attempts to warp... or haul in smaller valuable amounts...say like 500 mill worth. 20 mill payout to each of the 25 pilots looks pretty paltry. Prolly wouldnt even pay for the insurance and losses. Heck I'de imagine you'd need to have at least have over 2 billion to even bother hunting this way. 2 billion is alot of ore, or alot of valuable stuff... If it isn't ore, Im sure a faster ship could do the job in alot less time. All the freighter pilot has to do is be mindful of the cargo value and the means in which to sa*uard it against pirates.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:16:00 - [24] they should give frighters some slots so they can fit some sort of defense. and of cause, add another frighter bonus along this line: 10000 cpu need penalty for cargo expander (no 1m+ cargo)
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Massive remote armor repping of the Freighter? Do the math and consider the amount of damage the gankers are unloading versus what you could repair even with a ship dedicated to doing just that. The suicide gankers are knocking off roughly 183,000 hitpoints (really a bit more with resistances taken in to account but close enough) in about 30 seconds. You think even repairing the guy for a few thousand hitpoints will make a dent in that? I have no problems with "no safe space". What I do have issue with is the financial dynamics that make suicide ganking a no brainer. The gankers know what you are bringing and know they will make a profit. There is no "risk v. reward" to them to worry about because they KNOW what will happen and that they will make easy money doing it and in the process seriously screw someone else over (900 million ship plus billions in cargo). Getting CONCORD ganked is not a "risk" in this instance. It is a known quantity in their calculations really amounting to nothing different than buying low and selling high...spend a little money to make more money. Some possible solutions: - Make cargo scanning a not 100% thing. The scans may show item type or item amount or bot and have some random variance involved that could be rather large. Basically make it somewhat of a guessing game for the pirate...they have some idea what the guy has but never can be really sure how much they will make. Win some, lose some. If you want to make it so the Freighter piilot has a skill to "distort" the pirate scanner fine...lots of ways you could take this. - Nerf insurance payouts for hi sec ganks. If i use my car in a bank robbery and smash it while trying to get away I can assure you my insurance company will not be paying me a dime for that car. If it is too much to zero the payment (which it should) then some lower percentage payback. Or allow a full payment the first time that gets decreased on successive occurances. That would allow for a one time screwup but get people who abuse the system. - Design some way to properly escort a ship like a freighter. Maybe make it so anyone targetting the freighter while under escort gets a lock on the escorts instead so they HAVE to deal with the escorts. I dunno...just one idea and there are others. Just something to make escorting worthwhile rather than just being there to try and beat the pirates to the loot once they kill you.
Mini Coupe	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:23:00 - [26] I have no problem with suicide ganking in high-sec so much as with insurance payouts to suicide gankers. Why should people blown up committing a crime be rewarded with insurance payouts. If Concord blows up your ship there should be zero insurance payout.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:29:00 - [27] Just get 1 frig to scout and 1 frig to web the frieghter, you'll be fine. -
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? A heck of a lot less than a failed suicide freighter gank ;) I don't know the math but a few times I have been faced with repairing a battleship in a station because I forgot a hull repper and boggle at the cost and in this case we are talking about only several thousand hit points. A failed suicide gank probably cost the attackers in the neighborhood of 500 million. I wouldn't be surprised if paying to rep that much was somewhere up there. Anyone know for sure? Kinda curious (might just go shoot my freighter into armor a bit to find out).
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Phelan Lore Just get 1 frig to scout and 1 frig to web the frieghter, you'll be fine. Scout helps to be sure. Hard to miss 20 Domis on a gate with drones out . Web thing is nothing though. A freighter spends so much time just aligning for warp that webbing doesn't buy a whole lot. Besides...watching the Freighter gank video they scrammed the Freighter too so even if perfectly aligned after jump and webbed for fast jump that guy was going nowhere.
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Nyabinghi on 27/03/2007 19:36:54 Yeah I think the best solution here is essentially tanking the haulers up and if they are rather gimped for tank then perhaps CCP should do something about that. Essentially you need to stay alive till the cops show up. ***



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