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We the undersigned protest suicide ganking and request changes.

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Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:45:00 - [91] Originally by: Kylana Darkfate Eve is the only MMORPG I've seen that supports and encourages griefing. Why do you think it's attracting so many immature kiddies as of late? /Signed ... and it's not just "of late" - grief play has been part of Eve for a long time. Eve attempts to legitimize griefing and the griefers take advantage of it, making claims that "it's not grief, it's for profit and fun!" which is self deluded and morally bankrupt. Fact is, it is not going to change. So the option is, don't get into griefable situations, test on each patch to limit your exposure - ignore the aspects of the game that are subject to ass hats and enjoy the parts that are left.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:50:00 - [92] Quote: A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. it aint. i dont know how much you are into trading, but theres alot of thinking and market analyses that goes along with it. not only are you allready in a pvp situation with all the other traders, but also now all it needs is a halfway decent pirate corp flying by to vanish billions of you invested capital, - which also werent guaranteed to pay back if you're lucky and get through. in regards to getting corpmates together to escort you, - yeah, theyll propably do that once or twice, but if i have to ask for a 10 ship escort every week, its not gonna work out. people falsly assume that only because you can move lots of items from a to b, that would automaticly generate tons of isk - it doesnt.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:51:00 - [93] Ok I don't know much about freighters, but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Secure cans. Often it means your loot is destroyed, but that kind of prevents the ganker gaining benefit. Also doesn't that prevent a cargo scanner reading? Escort ships might help. Because when popped they could add to the wreck/cans, and then when the alts take something they're flaged. Also if you're ganged with the shot down ship, you should be able to fire on them when they rob the can/wreck Fitting. I agree that maybe transports need to have some low and mid slots (like the industrials do). From the CCP end theres not much that can be done. Allowing insurance to be invalid if podded by concord can create a number of situations (such as doing Thukker mission, serpentis mission etc..).
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Creed Richards On person suggested what would be done, well, as you said, turning off the ability to fire on non hostile targets is a good start, perhaps with use of beacons at stations and gates. Their field of effect would extend further out the higher the security status went, while in 0.5 it would only cover gates and stations. Even if this would be an option that can be deactived from the menu, please make it so! My last unintended podkill in high sec cost me 12% sec rating.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Ok I don't know much about freighters, but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Freighters take a lot of time to align, even with skills maxed out it takes forever.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:38:00 - [96] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Ok I don't know much about freighters, Clearly not :) Quote: but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Certainly not and it doesn't with freighters - they turn slowly to align - it can take over 30 seconds in some cases to turn and get into warp. That's more than enough time for someone to lock the vessel, web it (make it slower, turn slower), you only need one scrambler on it. Quote: Secure cans. Often it means your loot is destroyed, but that kind of prevents the ganker gaining benefit. Also doesn't that prevent a cargo scanner reading? No you can scan through secure cans. Quote: Fitting. I agree that maybe transports need to have some low and mid slots (like the industrials do). Transports are tech 2 industrials. Do you mean freighters? And no, certainly not. They'd just get filled with tanks then. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Kamikazi ONE Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:59:00 - [97] One idea might be to make scanning a ship an agressive act in the same way as stealing loot from a can. That way the freighter pilot and his corp now have the option of initiating defensive operations rather than waiting for the attackers ro move first.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:27:00 - [98] Originally by: Heroldyn Quote: A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. it aint. i dont know how much you are into trading, but theres alot of thinking and market analyses that goes along with it. not only are you allready in a pvp situation with all the other traders, but also now all it needs is a halfway decent pirate corp flying by to vanish billions of you invested capital, - which also werent guaranteed to pay back if you're lucky and get through. in regards to getting corpmates together to escort you, - yeah, theyll propably do that once or twice, but if i have to ask for a 10 ship escort every week, its not gonna work out. people falsly assume that only because you can move lots of items from a to b, that would automaticly generate tons of isk - it doesnt. Im sorry but for thats not a valid argument, i mean i fight in lowsec with ships worth about 300 - 500 mill everyday i risk my assets knowingly and so do you. And seeing that a freighter doesnt have any slots but massive amounts of HP instead and concord to protect it gives you a greater chance then me to survive. If i land in a gate camp just like you im equally dead no matter what. only diffrence is that your aggressors get killed mine doesnt. Which gives you a some what small revenge.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:39:00 - [99] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier From the CCP end theres not much that can be done. Allowing insurance to be invalid if podded by concord can create a number of situations (such as doing Thukker mission, serpentis mission etc..). Mission drones are a separate category from actual CONCORD police ships. Which is why I can kill DED personnel in my mission and still fly safely past CONCORD ships on the way back __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Velt Lhasar North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Ki An I find it amusing that when suiciders use untouchable alts to pick up the loot, it's bad and should be changed, but when people use THE SAME METHOD stealing loot from the Privateers, it's perfectly fine, and even funny. The carebear's mind is a strange thing. /Ki QFT
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:13:00 - [101] Edited by: Heroldyn on 28/03/2007 14:09:23 Originally by: Gaia Thorn ... i mean i fight in lowsec.. we are not talking about lowsec.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:28:00 - [102] Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 14:24:31 I know this has already been said numerous times by people before me in this thread, but it bears repeating. You are NEVER safe in space. Never. There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Think before you haul and remember that only you can prevent suicide ganking. Stop crying to CCP to think for you. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:33:00 - [103] Originally by: Raivi Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 14:24:31 I know this has already been said numerous times by people before me in this thread, but it bears repeating. You are NEVER safe in space. Never. There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Think before you haul and remember that only you can prevent suicide ganking. Stop crying to CCP to think for you. indeed, has been said numerous times, but doesnt make it any better. Smart Pilot with a few friends: if you have friends who escort your freighter every second day, fine- i find such helpfull people kinda rare. Warp to zero: doesnt matter. the aligning-time alone gives attackers enough time to warpscramble you.
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:40:00 - [104] This has already been said and it is the only logical step: Invalidate insurance where the victim is destroyed by concord. There are other good ideas but that is the first step CCP should take. I would like to see: All attackers on non hostile targets in high sec to be flagged hostile to EVERYONE (not just concord). Pod to be flagged also to players only (not concord). Collector of loot that does not have permission from owner to be flagged (including pod) to all players. (Loot permission to be transferred by owned by right clicking on can "allow access to:" - by default, corp has access.) This lets the players deal with suicide gankers. I'm sure there'd be lots of people hanging around Jita waiting for a suicide ganker so they can get some easy kills.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:05:00 - [105] Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 15:02:04 Originally by: Heroldyn indeed, has been said numerous times, but doesnt make it any better. Smart Pilot with a few friends: if you have friends who escort your freighter every second day, fine- i find such helpfull people kinda rare. Warp to zero: doesnt matter. the aligning-time alone gives attackers enough time to warpscramble you. If you use the bookmark in a straight line from the gate aligning time is reduced to essentially zero. That means that even if a fast locking opponent scrambles you, you can warp off as soon as your enemies get jammed by Concord. If you have enough money to fill a freighter with valuable goods, you should have either some friends help you move it, or hire somebody to help. (Hiring a new player is really cheap) In this game you can't be 100% safe when transporting goods in the most vulnerable ship in the game alone. Even in high-sec. That is intentional and endorsed by the devs. Yes having friends help you is a hassle, but hassle free 100% safe transporting of freighter loads of valuable cargo isn't something anyone is entitled to. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Doomed Predator Order Of The Sentinel FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:14:00 - [106] So your protesing eh? Doomed Predator gets the riot hose Excesive force my as
Lab Technician071548	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:47:00 - [107] There are some problems here that I think are being overlooked. I do not believe that suicide ganking is griefing but I do think that making it profitable to suicide gank freighters in safer space is problematic for the game. I don't say this because I think everyone should have an I-Win button for moving their faction / officer XL shield booster 30 jumps without fear of loss. I say this because putting industrialists at significant risk puts the market at significant risk of changes that are anything but consumer friendly. Most of the posts here seem to be aimed at mythical or, at least, unnamed cartels hauling freighters full of high end minerals or t2 goods and, omg, how can they be allowed to do that? That's not really what freighters are used for on a daily basis. High ends are now carrier jumped to low sec and hauled in transports relatively safely. Let's talk about the most common uses of freighters. They aren't used so much by 0.0 alliances to transport goods for sale through empire space. They are used by medium to large industrial organizations to move raw goods and manufactured products throughout the galaxy for you to have available and to use however you see fit in the game (ironically, even to use for suicide ganking freighters, ha ha). Every BS in the game is manufactured by a player. Each player who manufactures one has to centralize the minerals to manufacture it. Every medium to large industrial operation must then also distribute their goods for sale. Significantly raising the risks of doing so will significantly reduce item availability and, thereby also reduce competition, resulting in substantially raised prices. Industrial procurement and distribution are not fun tasks and not something that is an easy concept to base a corporation on. That is: it's more work than play to do on any real scale. Would you like to be involved in 3-7 freighter ops every week? Probably not. Just use an alt in a logistics ship you say? Warp to zero? Think about this for a minute: warping to 0 in a freighter is perhaps the only thing more tedious in this game than ice mining. Upon jumping, you have to decloak so your alt, which also had to be warped to zero manually, can see you, decloak, hit the sensor boosters, lock you and crank on the remote armor reppers. Rinse and repeat 20 times for a 10 jump round trip. Who wants to do that? Even if you did find a sufficiently masochistic person, according to my calculations, a single logistics ship will not be able to prevent a reasonably planned suicide gank attempt. Anybody who gets into such a big project will use sufficient means to ensure its success. How would you like to be the guy whose suicide gank attempt failure video made it to youtube? If it becomes common to blow up freighters carrying either a) billions in minerals or b) billions in finished products (e.g. more battleships than were required to take down the freighter), you will see market competition decrease significantly and prices rise for everyone. No insurance payout for a concordokken Kill or jam the drones as well Remove the loot drop feature or add significant means to defend a freighter that does not involve making it a corporation freighter op because it's simply not practical to do so to support industry. Not enough people will put up with doing business that way to keep the market healthy. If you thought tech 2 cartels were bad, wait until you see 150+ million ISK tier 2 battleships become the norm in Jita.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:55:00 - [108] Originally by: Creed Richards You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? People who wanted to be safe never were. Originally by: Creed Richards Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! CCP have proven that they will not turn EVE into WoW in space just to get more subs. Also, people in game only have the rights that CCP give them, and to be safe is not one of them. Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? No. Originally by: Creed Richards Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. If they 'desire' WoW in space, no they don't. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Raivi There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. A lot easier than you think...let's go through your list. Quote: Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) WTZ is useless as the Freighter ganks happens on the jump in. Quote: Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. Huh? It has been my impression that on jump in your are placed randomly around the gate facing a random direction so how do you make a bookmark in a straight line from the gate that makes certain the freighter does not have to align? And even if right I do not relish the thought of a return to a zillion bookmarks just so I can travel about. Also, webbing friggie helps but I would hardly call it instawarp for the freighter. Quote: SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Scouts can quite easily be dealt with and likely will be. All the suicide gankers need to do is sit at a SS a few thousand kilometers away and leave two or three shuttles or frigs or inties or whatever near the gate. Freighter uncloaks and they zip in and start bumping him to hell and back ruining his alignment. Very easily done on a freighter and even if he has guards they can do nothing about it. Gank squad warps to 10km on on of the shuttles and let the fireworks commence. Remote rep the freighter? As I said before when the attackers are dishing out well over 12,000 DPS you'd need quite a few to stop the gank. Watch the gank vid of the freighter...it went down in 15 seconds. That would allow for what...2 rep cycles? At the rate they were doing damage it would have taken a fleet of repping ships to save that thing.
Lab Technician071548	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:32:00 - [110] I get the distinct impression that some responders do not actually ever pilot freighters. This business about webbing the freighter? While it does make the freighter turn faster, it still makes a 4x1600 reinforced steel plate tanked out megathron seem gazelle like as it aligns.
Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:36:00 - [111] here we go again, amazing how many people play this game so confused about what it is, EVE is a dark evil game at times
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:40:00 - [112] On any of my chacters that are haulers I add shield extenders and resists, and at least one wcs at all times. I place all items into a secure can. I travel with my cans everywhere. I never place anything outside of the can so no one knows if I have anything int he can or not. and don't sit at gates for long period of time either.
Lab Technician071548 Astro-Support Services	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:44:00 - [113] Originally by: John Blackthorn On any of my chacters that are haulers I add shield extenders and resists, and at least one wcs at all times. I place all items into a secure can. I travel with my cans everywhere. I never place anything outside of the can so no one knows if I have anything int he can or not. and don't sit at gates for long period of time either. Freighters are not haulers: they have no slots to fit modules. Cans in your cargo space can be scanned: using them does not disguise or conceal your cargo in any way. If you have a simple solution, you don't understand the problem.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:45:00 - [114] Originally by: Humpalot WTZ is useless as the Freighter ganks happens on the jump in. This was just clearing an obvious one so that for the rest of my comments I could just worry about the far side of the gate. You are absolutely correct that what matters is the jump in because if someone is autopiloting it then they're a lost cause. Quote: Huh? It has been my impression that on jump in your are placed randomly around the gate facing a random direction so how do you make a bookmark in a straight line from the gate that makes certain the freighter does not have to align? And even if right I do not relish the thought of a return to a zillion bookmarks just so I can travel about. Also, webbing friggie helps but I would hardly call it instawarp for the freighter. Location is random. Orientation is not (at least not significantly). Jump through a gate a few times and you'll see that every gate has a "facing direction" and when you jump through you end up facing the same direction as the gate. Yes creating and using these bookmarks is a chore, but if you're carrying cargo that valuable, it's worth the effort. The OP seems to be claiming that there is nothing a freighter can do to escape suicide ganks, which is incorrect. The tradeoff for safety is that it requires forethought and preparation. Nothing should come for free in this game. Quote: Scouts can quite easily be dealt with and likely will be. All the suicide gankers need to do is sit at a SS a few thousand kilometers away and leave two or three shuttles or frigs or inties or whatever near the gate. Freighter uncloaks and they zip in and start bumping him to hell and back ruining his alignment. Very easily done on a freighter and even if he has guards they can do nothing about it. Gank squad warps to 10km on on of the shuttles and let the fireworks commence. You're right that scouts are not a perfect defense by themselves, however as part of a complete defense plan they are very very useful. Nothing can keep you 100% by itself, and even with the best preparation it is possible (although very very very hard) to suicide gank a freighter. However if you plan your route ahead of time, make the correct precautions and bring limited support (webbers and scouts, maybe a smartbombing BS to take care of drones if you want to be really really careful) then you'll be extremely safe. You are again correct that remote repairers are of very limited value in this kind of situation, but they're not the only kind of support that you can bring. Try thinking outside the box, developing strategies using ECM bursts, smartbombs, and maybe sensor dampers. In the end, it all comes down to being better prepared, better supported, and downright better than the people trying to kill you. It takes work to beat a suicide gank, but it's always your choice; you can do the homework and be very very safe, or you can decide to wing it and take advantage of the relatively low odds that any specific freighter will get ganked. Risk, reward and effort. Nothing comes for free. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:46:00 - [115] Originally by: Dread Phantom here we go again, amazing how many people play this game so confused about what it is, EVE is a dark evil game at times Not confused about anything. In fact I have no problem with Freighters dropping loot IF CCP gave me decent escort tools so the thing could be saved. And/or make a suicide gank something more than a no brainer calculation of, "I lose X and gain Y...if Y > X attack". There is no real risk v. reward there as the risks are perfectly understood and quantified and so are the rewards. Add to that the risks are even nerfed by a stupid payout from the game to the "law breakers" for breaking the law making their lives even simpler. Just want some balance. If I AFK a Freighter with 50 bil of stuff inside I get what's coming to me but if I gather a guard of 10 ships and pay attention then the results should be different and as it stands now that is not the case.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:47:00 - [116] Originally by: Lab Technician071548 If you have a simple solution, you don't understand the problem. I completely agree. However, one should not rule out the effectiveness of less simple solutions. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 - [117] Edited by: Aindrias on 28/03/2007 16:50:54 I'm all for "not being safe anywhere" (tbh, I think that's a lame ExplOMFGPwN4TW-Lemme-do-whatever-I-want-w/o-risk-player excuse, but I digress) and I'm all for 0.0 Lawlessness. But there are laws in higher/high-sec systems, but they're as wacked and senseless like many real world laws. Basically, I hear from this thread... Use a cargo container to ship your stuff in a freighter, if you don't like it, shove it because you're not safe anywhere. What diff does it make? If you get scanned and you have cargo containers in your hold, the odds are good your going to have enough stuff to make it worth the suicide gank. Run Protection in high-sec. Um.. ok.. CONCORD are the police of space, Why TF should we have to run protection when the police are right there? No body should be able to steal from cargo right in front of the police, sure, you maybe able to suicide gank a freighter. Everyone dies in your party from CONCORD, "But OW NOES!!??? you mean I can't use my no risk alt character to loot the cargo right in front of the police? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" It would be different if you coordinated with other actual players to get the loot, but no, the ALTS W/O a care in the world do it. It's pansy and cowardly. You're the biggest reason why people join NPC corps and make ALTS to haul and then YOU complain about it. I don't see why Pirates are the only players that deserve a reward and allowed to exploit the system. Oh.. "WAAAAAAAAAAAA it's a PvP game" OOOOOOK, you try running a PvP only game w/o industrials to make your ships for you or you forced to have 3 alts to be your support group (some people like to pay $50 a month for a game FFS) Actually, let's find a better name, "suicide" implies you actually die on purpose, when in this game, you don't die. You lose a ship which i and maybe a little money in clone upgrading if podded. How bout "STUPID-cide" or "Explo-cide" maybe "Find-every-lame-excuse-to-do-whatever-I-and-call-those-that-don't-agree-with-me-whiners-cide". Turning this game into a One Dimensional Ganker/PvP Fest doesn't do it justice when CCP has put much effort into things like the MArket or Contracts... Taking insurance from CONCORDED ships is a marvelous idea and would cut deeply into profits, but it may not be quite enough with multiple billions in the cargo hold. OHHHH THE SUFFERING! I CAN'T DO WHAT I WANT IN FRONT OF THE POLICE!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAA! Aind
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:00:00 - [118] Originally by: Raivi You are again correct that remote repairers are of very limited value in this kind of situation, but they're not the only kind of support that you can bring. Try thinking outside the box, developing strategies using ECM bursts, smartbombs, and maybe sensor dampers. I have considered these strategies and was kinda hoping the smartbombing battleship would stay in the box till some suicide gankers got surprised by it . That said in defense of my Freighter I will almost certainly lose the smartbombing battleship to CONCORD. All the pirates have to do is leave one (or more) bumping ships out of the gang and the defender is toast. Add to that whatever sec hits come with that (especially if the smartbombing Apoc pods a few people which is likely in this case). Would I lose the Apoc in defense of the freighter? In a heartbeat...be worth it just to watch 100 drones and 20 other battleships go poof. Nevertheless as a hauler that makes it a rather expensive haul and how many times can I defend myself before sec hits force me out of the guarding business?
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:06:00 - [119] i'm gonna fit out a ship with a rocket launcher and suicide gank a freighter pilot. For about one second they will think "today is the day it happens to me, i always knew..." then they will laugh :) Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:11:00 - [120] Edited by: Avon on 28/03/2007 17:07:32 Here we go again... When 15 escorts can't protect you against 15 gankers then there is a problem, but at the moment they can. Arguing that you don't think it is fair that your solo gameplay has to be compromised to counter organised groups is, frankly, whinging. You have Concord helping you, the sentry guns helping you, and your friends helping you. All you have to do is kill some damn drones and if you are really bad at that, remote rep the freighter while you are at it. Rocket science? No. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

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