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We the undersigned protest suicide ganking and request changes.

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Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:54:00 - [1] This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question. But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! Why have you not done anything? But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters. You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide. Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. My 2 cents, God Bless Creed Richards Those that wish to sign this petition, please do.
Marquis Dean The Last Thing You'll Ever See	Posted - 2007.03.27 17:59:00 - [2] And what would you do about it? --- Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -ReverendM Rev that took you ages to pick up on.
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:00:00 - [3] How do you know CCP aren't trying to figure out a solution? Or maybe it's impossble, without some form of - what some will consider - draconian measure? Like putting paid to 2nd accounts? ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
Sphynix	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:01:00 - [4] This is about frieghters dropping loot. If you can organise a gang of 15+ people, get them all into a BS, get them all killed, for the chance of re-couping their loss on the loot. Then more power to them. What you really need is frieghter sized Secure Containers so that when you do get killed they can't loot or scoop the items. Mind you - when that happens you're gonna spend the next week in an indy emptying that tin :p The only way to make high sec "safe" is to turn off all weapon types on "non hostile" targets. Which would mean you can still be killed by war dec. This would mean that anyone in a newb corp is safe - so for fairness sake should anyone over (let say) 6 months gets kicked out of the corp and forced to start their own? This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs.
Trojanman190 Caldari Entropy Tech. Quantum Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:04:00 - [5] Wait wait... freighters can now drop cans? Someone please confirm if I am reading this correctly.
bogir War And Peace Construction	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Nope not 100% save -- but saver then low sec... there are ways to try not go get ganged in high sec.. put on shield extenders, resistens slots - dont fly around whit a Bip lot of stuff of value at same time.. they normal look at how much you have in cargo vs the price of there ships / mods for a kill. if they gain more out of killing you vs there price of the kill then you are a target.. put in all in a contanior - then it normal get all destroyed if they kill you. and BIG lose for you still yes ... but no gain for them.
Ms E	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Trojanman190 Wait wait... freighters can now drop cans? Someone please confirm if I am reading this correctly. It is live on test - no idea if it made it through the patch. If it is then Private Ears is going to have a field day :p
The Pointless Gallente Lacks a Point Ltd	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:12:00 - [8] Originally by: bogir Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Nope not 100% save -- but saver then low sec... there are ways to try not go get ganged in high sec.. put on shield extenders, resistens slots - dont fly around whit a Bip lot of stuff of value at same time.. they normal look at how much you have in cargo vs the price of there ships / mods for a kill. if they gain more out of killing you vs there price of the kill then you are a target.. put in all in a contanior - then it normal get all destroyed if they kill you. and BIG lose for you still yes ... but no gain for them. And could someone enlighten me before I comment further: can cargo scanners see into containers on your ship? ----------------------------------------------- I'd rather be a jack of all trades than a master of one.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:12:00 - [9] Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Who told you that rubbish? I guess you didn't do the basic tutorial, cause from the beginning the tutorial explicitly tells you that you are not totally safe anywhere in EvE. High-sec is just safer than other areas. So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Jotan Veer Wings of Turul Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:16:00 - [10] Originally by: The Pointless And could someone enlighten me before I comment further: can cargo scanners see into containers on your ship? Yes, and they can see into mission plastic wraps also. IBAPMIP (in before any pirate misinformation post)

Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:16:00 - [11] Originally by: Sphynix This is about frieghters dropping loot. If you can organise a gang of 15+ people, get them all into a BS, get them all killed, for the chance of re-couping their loss on the loot. Then more power to them. What you really need is frieghter sized Secure Containers so that when you do get killed they can't loot or scoop the items. Mind you - when that happens you're gonna spend the next week in an indy emptying that tin :p The only way to make high sec "safe" is to turn off all weapon types on "non hostile" targets. Which would mean you can still be killed by war dec. This would mean that anyone in a newb corp is safe - so for fairness sake should anyone over (let say) 6 months gets kicked out of the corp and forced to start their own? This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs. I will admit, the whole thing about freighters now being profitable targets kind of catalyzed me into posting this. But it's not the only thing. I've heard of haulers being wiped out by suicide gankers, and I believe I've heared even of players in lesser ships being destroyed just becuase if fit the attackers whim. I do not think that is a good way to play. On person suggested what would be done, well, as you said, turning off the ability to fire on non hostile targets is a good start, perhaps with use of beacons at stations and gates. Their field of effect would extend further out the higher the security status went, while in 0.5 it would only cover gates and stations. Yes, this is a PVP game, but is it PVP to greif people in a place where it's supposedly safe? Keep real PVP to low sec and 0.0.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:22:00 - [12] Edited by: Ling Xiao on 27/03/2007 18:21:13 Hey, if pirate NPCs can infest high-sec for mission runners, then it's about time human players can get in on the action and defy CONCORD even if it's just for 10 seconds at a time edit - the real problem here is that people get insurance payouts when CONCORD kills them, which doesn't really make sense. They defy the law of the empire, it should invalidate their insurance. Better risk vs reward ratio, imo. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:26:00 - [13] Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere I do own a freighter sir, but I've only used it once in that manner, and it's not only freighter pilots who are affected by suicide ganking. It is based on principle that I protest this. But let me ask you this, if Concord cannot protect pilots in high sec, what's the point? CCP might as well set all system sec status to 0.4 to 0.0 to make it clear just how vulnerable we are.
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:27:00 - [14] I like all the pie-rats going "haha tutorial said that 1.0 space is as safe as low sec it says so dont you see it noob!?1" and "haha now you have to protect your freighters in high sec you bunch of farmers and isk hoarders!!!1" Well hi sec is safer....but only for the pie-rats, since concord attacks defenders as well as aggressors, so there is nothing a defender can do to protect himself or his cargo from a pie-rat who WANTS to die and his merry band of alt-thieves. This ironically coincides with the ludicrous notion that a player can actually DEFEND his freighter and its cargo in hi-sec with concord around. What happens if you shoot the alts (which will be in NPC corps)? BOOM you lose ANOTHER ship, but this time to concord. I like the beacon idea. Ive seen them in 0.0 around some gates and their description is interesting. Making Space Lanes using beacons would be a nice addition. Hi sec doesnt have to be completely safe, but thats what wardecs are for you noobs. Suicide ganking with alts is the ONLY 100% safe form of income you can get, and ironically its the people boasting about how hi-sec isnt safe who do it and/or support it. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Sphynix	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:32:00 - [15] High sec isn't safe. If it was then -5 pirates wouldn't be shot at and war decs would have no effect. If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Lets put it another way - if there was no weapons fire at all in high sec: You would have no rats. No war decs. No ore. No Ice. 2 or 3 stations where everything was sold at and everywhere else desolate. Everyone would be in low sec because thats where everything had been moved to and the pirates would be in roaming gangs - you wouldn't stand a chance. But then because 1/3 of the game area is totally empty someone would just remove high sec and you'd be even worse of than before... Or are you suggestion that CONCORD spawns a titan that uses a system-wide DDD that kills anyone with a criminal flag?
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:42:00 - [16] It is safe, for pirates. Its pretty simple. The pirates basically have free reign on who or what they kill with little consequence. If they want to gank that hauler, they gank the hauler. If they want to blow up that mining op, they blow up the mining op. They bring their alts over who are in NPC corps and loot the stuff. Pirates = 1 Player = 0 Oh but the player is upset. He attacks the alts. Concord shows up and the player dies. Pirate = 2 Player = 0 In low sec the player has a chance. He can at least fire back at the alts if he brought friends. Not much of an advantage over hi-sec but it at least changes the odds. It goes from 100% impossible to defend oneselve to maybe 80% impossible (or 0% impossible if the player is in a good group). In Hi sec it is 100% impossible to prevent alts from looting your stuff after a gank. Pie-rats that complain about their -5 sec and 'boohoo I cant suicide gank anymore' are usually too lazy to go and bring their sec back up to a level where they can go back in low sec. Its not hard at all. Actually its pretty easy and profitable. Well in any case, I dare any pie-rat to deny that concord protects them more often than not. Deny that your alts are protected from players by concord. Deny that suicide ganking is not profitable. Unfortunately CCP seems to be encouraging PGP (Player Ganking Player) over PVP these days. They dont care. More alts means more money for them. Same with macros I guess. More alts means more money for them. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Lemen Meringue Cult of Lemen	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:46:00 - [17] Really, your best option right now is to have an ibis alt flying ahead of your freighter, shooting people at every jump through. Suicide ganking is a lot less of an option when Concord is already there.
Destiny Calling Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:54:00 - [18] The only place your truly safe is when your docked and thats good enough for me
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:56:00 - [19] I find it amusing that when suiciders use untouchable alts to pick up the loot, it's bad and should be changed, but when people use THE SAME METHOD stealing loot from the Privateers, it's perfectly fine, and even funny. The carebear's mind is a strange thing. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Trojanman190 Caldari Entropy Tech. Quantum Star Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:56:00 - [20] If freighters can drop loot then we need to give them med and low slots. Suicide ganking does not have to destroy the freighter to put the hurt on the pilot... do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? Also, if freighters can drop a can on explosion then freighters need to be able to jet cans on their own and pick up cans. If CCP makes it so freighter are viable targets in high sec with no way of defending themselves then something is seriously wrong...

Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 18:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Creed Richards Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? CCP don't provide any such rewards, players do. Who decides how there goods should be transported and puts them in a cargo hold? Originally by: Creed Richards Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question. Agreed, these are both 2 completely seperate discussion points, in my opinion. One deals with an area where pretty much anything goes and another where there is a high degree of safety. Originally by: Creed Richards But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! Why have you not done anything? Because your are never supposed to be 100% invulnerable, its a game design point. I sincerly doubt it'll ever change. Originally by: Creed Richards But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters. You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide. Suiciding a freighter isn't exactly a piece of cake you know. Takes a lot of organisation and many pilots, and typically a lot of patience on the part of those pilots. Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? Safe yes, 100% untouchable when your in it? No. Originally by: Creed Richards You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. I completely agree that any player has just as much a right to play eve as any other. But any player cannot expect the game to be moulded around what they want. Thats the job of CCP employees. I'd also tend to agree that a bit more protection for freightes in hi-sec may well be required. However as it stands this is the only way to hit 0.0 alliance freighters who hide their freighter alts in NPC corps. So a "bit more protection" does not mean invulnerable. Originally by: Creed Richards Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. Its been repeated time and time again that hi-sec is not supposed to be totally safe. You are supposed to be able to shoot whomever you wish as long as you accept the consequences of such actions. As it stands now the consequences are getting your ship destroyed by CONCORD. Such suicide ganks have existed for a very long time in eve. Saying that this is the same as the entire Eve universe being 0.4 or below is ludicrous. Just my thoughts on the matter.
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? A heck of a lot less than a failed suicide freighter gank ;)
Delylah Samson Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:00:00 - [23] Edited by: Delylah Samson on 27/03/2007 18:58:25 For it to pro***ble, the freighter would have to have a ton of goods that would survive. Now, if only the ciding pirates did the looting, they would have a chance of profitting on the booty. BUT you see ciders have this thing caled agression timers, that will kill them if they undock in a ship while the timer is a red type. So now you have to get a ton of hauler pilots. And not just any old hauler pilot one who can fly the best haulers with best expanders to get 40k or more. Even a pilot like that would have to make TWENTY haul runs just to collect 800k of stuff. So you get 10 haulers to do 2 hauls each. So far, you have 25 folks committed to do this type of hunting. How much are they expected to earn for their efforts? Yes, I'm assuming no one is running multiple accounts. Now thats a perfect scenario. Unfortunately, highsec is rife with newbs and what I call battle parasites. Those who loot cans and take the loot from others not involved in the fight. Heck, everyone would try to loot the cans. This would further dilute the potential profits. Now given that some of the best value items are small items, ie bpos, implants and the odd officer item, then even t1 frigs can get into the feeding frenzy at a dead freighter. Chances are, the pirate teams would cash in very little for only a small fraction before the freighter wreak is empty. The irnony is that the pirates would also wind up losing their wreaks to looters as well. The only place I see such a pirating operation be successful is one where the newb and passerby population is low. Then again, all the freighter pilot needs is a gangmate who will web him as he attempts to warp... or haul in smaller valuable amounts...say like 500 mill worth. 20 mill payout to each of the 25 pilots looks pretty paltry. Prolly wouldnt even pay for the insurance and losses. Heck I'de imagine you'd need to have at least have over 2 billion to even bother hunting this way. 2 billion is alot of ore, or alot of valuable stuff... If it isn't ore, Im sure a faster ship could do the job in alot less time. All the freighter pilot has to do is be mindful of the cargo value and the means in which to sa*uard it against pirates.
Layla Ashley Amarr Children of Avalon Avateas Blessed	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:16:00 - [24] they should give frighters some slots so they can fit some sort of defense. and of cause, add another frighter bonus along this line: 10000 cpu need penalty for cargo expander (no 1m+ cargo)
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:21:00 - [25] Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Massive remote armor repping of the Freighter? Do the math and consider the amount of damage the gankers are unloading versus what you could repair even with a ship dedicated to doing just that. The suicide gankers are knocking off roughly 183,000 hitpoints (really a bit more with resistances taken in to account but close enough) in about 30 seconds. You think even repairing the guy for a few thousand hitpoints will make a dent in that? I have no problems with "no safe space". What I do have issue with is the financial dynamics that make suicide ganking a no brainer. The gankers know what you are bringing and know they will make a profit. There is no "risk v. reward" to them to worry about because they KNOW what will happen and that they will make easy money doing it and in the process seriously screw someone else over (900 million ship plus billions in cargo). Getting CONCORD ganked is not a "risk" in this instance. It is a known quantity in their calculations really amounting to nothing different than buying low and selling high...spend a little money to make more money. Some possible solutions: - Make cargo scanning a not 100% thing. The scans may show item type or item amount or bot and have some random variance involved that could be rather large. Basically make it somewhat of a guessing game for the pirate...they have some idea what the guy has but never can be really sure how much they will make. Win some, lose some. If you want to make it so the Freighter piilot has a skill to "distort" the pirate scanner fine...lots of ways you could take this. - Nerf insurance payouts for hi sec ganks. If i use my car in a bank robbery and smash it while trying to get away I can assure you my insurance company will not be paying me a dime for that car. If it is too much to zero the payment (which it should) then some lower percentage payback. Or allow a full payment the first time that gets decreased on successive occurances. That would allow for a one time screwup but get people who abuse the system. - Design some way to properly escort a ship like a freighter. Maybe make it so anyone targetting the freighter while under escort gets a lock on the escorts instead so they HAVE to deal with the escorts. I dunno...just one idea and there are others. Just something to make escorting worthwhile rather than just being there to try and beat the pirates to the loot once they kill you.
Mini Coupe	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:23:00 - [26] I have no problem with suicide ganking in high-sec so much as with insurance payouts to suicide gankers. Why should people blown up committing a crime be rewarded with insurance payouts. If Concord blows up your ship there should be zero insurance payout.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:29:00 - [27] Just get 1 frig to scout and 1 frig to web the frieghter, you'll be fine. -
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? A heck of a lot less than a failed suicide freighter gank ;) I don't know the math but a few times I have been faced with repairing a battleship in a station because I forgot a hull repper and boggle at the cost and in this case we are talking about only several thousand hit points. A failed suicide gank probably cost the attackers in the neighborhood of 500 million. I wouldn't be surprised if paying to rep that much was somewhere up there. Anyone know for sure? Kinda curious (might just go shoot my freighter into armor a bit to find out).
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:34:00 - [29] Originally by: Phelan Lore Just get 1 frig to scout and 1 frig to web the frieghter, you'll be fine. Scout helps to be sure. Hard to miss 20 Domis on a gate with drones out . Web thing is nothing though. A freighter spends so much time just aligning for warp that webbing doesn't buy a whole lot. Besides...watching the Freighter gank video they scrammed the Freighter too so even if perfectly aligned after jump and webbed for fast jump that guy was going nowhere.
Nyabinghi Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:40:00 - [30] Edited by: Nyabinghi on 27/03/2007 19:36:54 Yeah I think the best solution here is essentially tanking the haulers up and if they are rather gimped for tank then perhaps CCP should do something about that. Essentially you need to stay alive till the cops show up. ***

Charles Schwab The Charles Schwab Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Ms E Originally by: Trojanman190 Wait wait... freighters can now drop cans? Someone please confirm if I am reading this correctly. It is live on test - no idea if it made it through the patch. If it is then Private Ears is going to have a field day :p I tested it on SiSi, and the freighter actually left a (salvageable) wreck with the freighter contents in it, rather than spewing cans and ships everywhere. ___
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 19:48:00 - [32] Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 19:46:44 This isn't really just about the freighter situation. This is more about this game going down the road of griefing rather than actual PVP. CCP has been eerily silent on several matters relating to griefing. I've even heard of people who were trying to assist noob players from getting griefed, being warned not to grief the griefers!! This makes absofinglutely no sense to me. I've been trying to get my head around what the devs are actually trying to succeed with Eve and frankly, I cannot. PVP is great, griefing is not. By the way, it makes no sense to have any high sec systems if one entity can take advantage of the war dec system to practically make no high sec area safe (relatively). This is just another example of some strange decision making on the part of the Dev's. I am starting to believe that they really like to see others hurt. Theres a german word that may describe them, "Schadenfreude" meaning "pleasure taken from someone else's misfortune". It's all I can think judging by the actions and non-action of Devs with Eve.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:01:00 - [33] Edited by: Phelan Lore on 27/03/2007 20:00:33 Originally by: Humpalot Besides...watching the Freighter gank video they scrammed the Freighter too so even if perfectly aligned after jump and webbed for fast jump that guy was going nowhere. Did you also notice that they were all jammed by concord? And who said that the freighter has to align to the next gate? If it jumps into a camp there should be something that the frieghter can warp to pretty fast if he has a webber. -
George Carver	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:04:00 - [34] Any of you ever hear of an old BBS game called tradewars? EVE is basically an advanced 3d version of that old game. The main principles were a small group of police patrolled systems where you would start out, and then you would eventually move out into lawless space to build your own planets etc. However in the later stages of a game you could overpower the police so that nothing became safe. Anyway I think the guiding principles of EVE are that you are never truely safe, but if you are smart about it you can minimize your risk. So they leave things as they are, you always have to worry more about the other players than you do about the AI and I think that is what makes this game so much better than anything else.
Nicholas Barker Caldari Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:05:00 - [35] if you killed somebody IRL to take money from their wallet, but just as you shot them a cop car drove by and put you in jail, would a "friend" (alt) of yours be able to take the cash while the cops drag you away then give it to you while you're in jail or after you are free'd. If somebody gets popped in empire by somebody concord should impound the goods then drop them off at a station for you if they survive, although i wouldn't go as far as to say that the person who killed you should pay for the destroyed goods. ------------------------------------- Am Orbitin' ur ship! Gettin' nossed!
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:14:00 - [36] I agree with the no insurance for concord deaths. On the other hand, alts get flagged for looting other cans so there is a way to counter that. Just disable docking or jumping while being flagged so ppl can get revenge. Thats the most annoying problem with trash looting alts in empire Imo. Ship lovers click here
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:15:00 - [37] Edited by: Turas Kain on 27/03/2007 20:12:05 Originally by: Humpalot I don't know the math but a few times I have been faced with repairing a battleship in a station because I forgot a hull repper and boggle at the cost and in this case we are talking about only several thousand hit points. A failed suicide gank probably cost the attackers in the neighborhood of 500 million. I wouldn't be surprised if paying to rep that much was somewhere up there. Its been a few months since I had an escaped freighter so things could have been changed. Last one I got down to approx 50% hull took 165 mil to repair. The number was provided by the target so he could have just lied too of couse. Originally by: Tressia This isn't really just about the freighter situation. This is more about this game going down the road of griefing rather than actual PVP. snip Ganking a freighter (or any other ship) is not generally the same as griefing. The objective in ganking said ships is generally to profit, or in some cases there is a tactical reason, causing grief to the target player is a side effect and no the aim. Griefing by ganking (purely to cause grief to a player) in hi-sec will become very expensive for one thing effectively making it impossible to do for any length of time. Removing insurance from CONCORD'd ships certainly seems like a reasonable step I'd think. A down side is it'd become more difficult to suicide on farmers but you cant really do this effectively anyway due to sec hit loses. Can dent them but not cause any significant damage.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:17:00 - [38] Funny, here we are again... I don't like the idea of Suicide Ganking, but I would not want anything done to stop it... I would sign on to the idea that there is no insurance pay off if the ship was killed by Concord (outside of some mission that has NPC Concord Rats if any exist). As with other PvP/PvE kills, Ownership of the wreck would be the owner of the ship (not the killer) and any looters (see the thread on Loot thieves) should be flagged to the owners and his/her associates (Corp Mates and Gang members) thus the friends that get there a bit late to save the freighter can at least blow the looters up... unlike the Loot Thieves thread, the Killers are not there any more, they all died at the hands of Concord... or would they be? Target ship is set upon by the Suicide Squad and blows up... Concord arrives and takes care of the suicide squad, the Looters start to loot the wreck when the Target ships back up arrive (now with kill rights on the looters)... they commence the popping... granting the kill rights of their own to the Looter Protection squad... and the battle begins... But I still think those killed by Concord should not get insurance... Noob in training...
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Nicholas Barker if you killed somebody IRL to take money from their wallet, but just as you shot them a cop car drove by and put you in jail, would a "friend" (alt) of yours be able to take the cash while the cops drag you away then give it to you while you're in jail or after you are free'd. If somebody gets popped in empire by somebody concord should impound the goods then drop them off at a station for you if they survive, although i wouldn't go as far as to say that the person who killed you should pay for the destroyed goods. Real life comparasions aren't particuarly relevant to a game in any sense. If the above was in fact done then it'd make transporting anything in hi-sec 100% safe no matter what ship you use, as long as it fits in cargo hold. I don't believe this is the intention but I can't say that for sure. What I can say is suiciding has been done for years and the above has never been implemented so it seems to not be as intended.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:26:00 - [40] I agree with the op. If CCP doesn't change something fundamental then this game will go down the drain, especially since other games better than Eve are in development (i only mention Infinity as example). There is too much griefing in the game, it only becomes more and more. Risk against reward. That is fine with me. PvP, great. But look. Where is the risk with high sec suicide freighter ganks? There is no risk. You loose your ships to concord, you get the insurance payout back, so only light losses. A convoy cannote help to protect the freighter because the convoy cannot attack the griefers without concord blowing the convoy up. And after the griefers attacked the freighter? They deal out too much damage in a too short time. Or take the titans. That is pure griefing. There is no risk at all involved. Or a fleet of 30 capital ships and 5 supercapitals. There is no way to go against that. This all makes this once fine game so unbalanced. So uninteresting. And in the long run it will destroy Eve if nothing happens. CCP should change these things, so that the gameplay becomes more interesting, less save for the griefers. But instead they put a lot of effort into that walking in stations project...

Eralus	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:27:00 - [41] Originally by: Humpalot Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. 10 logistics ships? Seems fair. I'd like to see a skill that lets you put your ship in the line of fire between a gang mate and another ship, thus taking the damage yourself. That would help the convoy dynamic, but not sure how nice it would be on the need for speed. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:32:00 - [42] Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 20:29:42 The point is that there are people that will go to these extremes and suicide a freighter in order to profit. The person losing said freighter is the one being griefed (as the defination of the word points out). This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. My saying that this game is moving more towards griefing rather than actual PVP is based on the fact that the freighter cannot fight back. Also, it is not practical for everyone to have a large escort all the time while using a freighter in empire, it's just unrealistic (not as in mirroring life, but as in not practical). The devs live and breathe eve. The rest cannot afford that amount of time in game generally. Make eve too much of a grind and people *will* go elsewhere.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:32:00 - [43] I've got to agree with the OP here. It's not just the freighter changes, although they're a perfect example of making gvp the dominant playstyle of this game. You've had a fair amount of people complaining about freighters not being able to dock at a POS for a long time. We've heard that this is something that will be 'looked at' sometime in the future. But what do we get instead? A gankability downgrade. What really annoys me is that they've been working hard to code in the changes that allow these freighters to drop loot, rather than improve functionality. I think this pretty much answers the OP's first question also: suicide gankers were the people they were intending to help out with this change.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:37:00 - [44] Originally by: WarMongeer I've got to agree with the OP here. It's not just the freighter changes, although they're a perfect example of making gvp the dominant playstyle of this game. You've had a fair amount of people complaining about freighters not being able to dock at a POS for a long time. We've heard that this is something that will be 'looked at' sometime in the future. But what do we get instead? A gankability downgrade. What really annoys me is that they've been working hard to code in the changes that allow these freighters to drop loot, rather than improve functionality. I think this pretty much answers the OP's first question also: suicide gankers were the people they were intending to help out with this change. You make a good point really. I would love to hear a dev respond to your point about time taken coding this. I wonder what ccp really has in mind for Eve in the future? Fleet ops = horrible most of the time. pos warefare = horrible grind. moving around in empire = becoming a horrible grind. So many broken eve stuff. Maybe they are attemping to get everyone to leave eve so that they have the servers to themselves??
Sean Dillon Caldari Privateers	Posted - 2007.03.27 20:55:00 - [45] The asnwer to this is very simple, stay out of busy regions/systems. Dense population atract bandits, just as in real life. There are plenty of back systems, with low populations, that are good to make a living out of in high secure. As for hauler ganking, having done it myself more then once, dont make it worthwile to be ganked and put a little effort in a tank and dont go afk. As for privateers, well you know they'll dec you one day if you join a 0.0 alliance. Also there is plenty of mission running corps/ mining corps that have a peacefull existance (perhaps waiting to be griefed) but they live in lower populated regions and are less likely to fall victem of griefers. But in the end its just one day, the next day you play again and move on. If you can't you shouldn't be playing this game.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Sean Dillon The asnwer to this is very simple, stay out of busy regions/systems. Dense population atract bandits, just as in real life. There are plenty of back systems, with low populations, that are good to make a living out of in high secure. As a trader my choices of where I go are limited. I cannot choose to just hang in low population systems as I have to go where the stuff I need to build or trade is. Further the routes I take are not always able to be altered significantly. Sometimes I can but sometimes you just have to go through a given point. Pirates are pretty good at sniffing out those common choke points. Still, I imagine that pirates will learn in this case it is better to suicide freighter in 0.5 systems with not much traffic. The dogpile on the freighter wreck in a place like jita would be so funny to watch as to be worth a freighter gank just for the spectacle. Of course the gankers would lose a lot of their haul to these others. Quote: As for hauler ganking, having done it myself more then once, dont make it worthwile to be ganked and put a little effort in a tank and dont go afk. Tell me how I tank a Freighter?
Trubba Maykah	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Phelan Lore Just get 1 frig to scout and 1 frig to web the frieghter, you'll be fine. Scout helps to be sure. Hard to miss 20 Domis on a gate with drones out . Web thing is nothing though. A freighter spends so much time just aligning for warp that webbing doesn't buy a whole lot. Besides...watching the Freighter gank video they scrammed the Freighter too so even if perfectly aligned after jump and webbed for fast jump that guy was going nowhere. You only need a scout at the gate with a bumping crew in near but warpable range and the damage fleet in a nearby safe spot. You can web the freighter all you want, even with top nav and spaceship command skills, the freighter will not escape. There is currently no practical way to save a freighter in .7 or below space from a disciplined crew with any decent scouting going on. The primary reasons for destroying a freighter right now are to inflict loss (typically for some strategic reason related to personal gain) or personal revenge. If CCP adds profit motivation, so that suicide freighter ganking becomes a hobby or professional goal, this will have serious repercussions for the market. For the record: I do not think it is a wise idea to change things so that freighters drop loot. As a side note, most people over-simplify and thereby they also under-value destroying a competitor's freighter. Contrary to popular spouting off, there is value in spending, say, 3B to destroy an empty freighter worth only 1B if the person spending 2B can accept a 2B loss much more easily than the other person can accept a 1B loss and if inflicint ghtat 1B loss will help client meet their goals with respect to the hapless victim. Pain thresholds vary and ascertaining others' goals from such actions can be murky.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:10:00 - [48] Originally by: Trubba Maykah If CCP adds profit motivation, so that suicide freighter ganking becomes a hobby or professional goal, this will have serious repercussions for the market. For the record: I do not think it is a wise idea to change things so that freighters drop loot. Already been done m8. That is the point of this post.
Sean Dillon Caldari Privateers	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:17:00 - [49] Quote: As for hauler ganking, having done it myself more then once, dont make it worthwile to be ganked and put a little effort in a tank and dont go afk. Tell me how I tank a Freighter? You know the asnwer to it, you can't tank a freighter. So what about it? The chance of being ganked in it, to be honest, is still very low. You need alot of people for it, it won't be something you do everyday. It also requires alot of communication and effort to get everyone in line I think. Just make sure you don't have someone who hates you or put 50 billion in a freighter. Its still more likely to lose a freighter to a wardec then to a suicide gank squad. Ofcourse can't predict the future, but it wont happen everyday.
Soumk	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:19:00 - [50] Up with suicide! Down with carebears! Boo! Hissss! Carebears suck toad toes!

Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:21:00 - [51] I'd like to see some way in which an Escort can ACTUALLY, successfully escort. Whether its an inherent special gang option or ability, or a Mod, or whatever.
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Nicholas Barker if you killed somebody IRL to take money from their wallet, but just as you shot them a cop car drove by and put you in jail, would a "friend" (alt) of yours be able to take the cash while the cops drag you away then give it to you while you're in jail or after you are free'd. If somebody gets popped in empire by somebody concord should impound the goods then drop them off at a station for you if they survive, although i wouldn't go as far as to say that the person who killed you should pay for the destroyed goods. Real life comparasions aren't particuarly relevant to a game in any sense. If the above was in fact done then it'd make transporting anything in hi-sec 100% safe no matter what ship you use, as long as it fits in cargo hold. I don't believe this is the intention but I can't say that for sure. What I can say is suiciding has been done for years and the above has never been implemented so it seems to not be as intended. The "Real Life Doesn't Apply" arguement is usually used by those that "want to do whatever they want because they can" type. The thing is, if there were Cops on everything major intersection in real life like there is in high-sec, then muggings would never happen. But as it is, the Cops (aka CONCORD) don't do much in this particular case. I think proximity maybe the key. Most freighter pilots go from gate to gate and gate to station, not a lot of roaming around belts or anything. So you pirates can steal loot in the belts far away from the CONCORD strong points at the gates and stations, but not near it. An interesting but far fetched idea is to "get arrested" if you steal loot near a gate/station. You get a message saying "You've been caught, pay this fine and you ship has been impounded and you must pay to get it out" and you're in an egg at the nearest CONCORD station... which could be far away LOL. This is another way that alts are being exploited however and it would all go away if alts were super nerfed. Alts are for the lame lame lame non-risk taking players... yes, I have corpies with alts and I tell them that too.. and I only have an alt on my ONE account so I can be in my alliances Bank Corp, which is lame because Alliances should mimick corps and have roles. Aind
Trubba Maykah	Posted - 2007.03.27 21:45:00 - [53] Originally by: Tressia Originally by: Trubba Maykah If CCP adds profit motivation, so that suicide freighter ganking becomes a hobby or professional goal, this will have serious repercussions for the market. For the record: I do not think it is a wise idea to change things so that freighters drop loot. Already been done m8. That is the point of this post. Nobody has confirmed yet whether or not this made it into the patch. It was not in the patch notes. Can you confirm that freighters now drop loot on Tranquility?
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:18:00 - [54] Originally by: Tressia The point is that there are people that will go to these extremes and suicide a freighter in order to profit. The person losing said freighter is the one being griefed (as the defination of the word points out). This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. I'm sorry but killing someone for profit is not griefing. Such an act does not make the aggressors griefers, they are taking advantage of a situation the freighter pilot has placed himself in. Much like a trader who spots a competitor has misssed a zero on typing his market order. Trader buys the very low priced goods and sells at high profit, griefing? Originally by: Aindrias The "Real Life Doesn't Apply" arguement is usually used by those that "want to do whatever they want because they can" type. Not the intention of my usage, I have never been part of a suicide gank on a freighter. Comparing real life to a game simply does not work on so many levels it'd take me too long to type them up.
Malcore Trisus SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:20:00 - [55] Originally by: Trubba Maykah Originally by: Tressia Originally by: Trubba Maykah If CCP adds profit motivation, so that suicide freighter ganking becomes a hobby or professional goal, this will have serious repercussions for the market. For the record: I do not think it is a wise idea to change things so that freighters drop loot. Already been done m8. That is the point of this post. Nobody has confirmed yet whether or not this made it into the patch. It was not in the patch notes. Can you confirm that freighters now drop loot on Tranquility? Confirmed. Signature removed. Please email us at [email protected] (with a link to the sig) to know why. -Conuion Meow
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:45:00 - [56] Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 22:45:19 Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Tressia The point is that there are people that will go to these extremes and suicide a freighter in order to profit. The person losing said freighter is the one being griefed (as the defination of the word points out). This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. I'm sorry but killing someone for profit is not griefing. Such an act does not make the aggressors griefers, they are taking advantage of a situation the freighter pilot has placed himself in. Much like a trader who spots a competitor has misssed a zero on typing his market order. Trader buys the very low priced goods and sells at high profit, griefing? You obviously did not understand my statement. Without going into trying to make myself exactly perfectly clear, I will say that what CCP has done is ridiculous with allowing freighters to drop loot. Why TF didn't they spend the time working on some of the other broken aspects of the game instead of adding assine features such as freighters dropping cargo as loot. Again, I think that they must love to see others caused pain. It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:45:00 - [57] Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 22:42:32 Double post
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:46:00 - [58] Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 22:44:38 wow, triple post and all I did was try to edit.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.03.27 22:50:00 - [59] For escorting, I really like the "Invoke Concord With Scouts" ideas already given in the the thread. It's definitely a silly that that sounds like the best way by far to do it though. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
FatChance Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:09:00 - [60] Agree with what has already been posted: Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance.

Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:39:00 - [61] Originally by: Tressia You obviously did not understand my statement. snip I seem to have understood what you said: Originally by: Tressia This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. You are incorrect, it is not griefing as I explained in my post. How common it is has no effect on wether it is griefing or not. Why shouldn't freighters drop loot when all other ships do? And a fix like this will make a big positive difference to a lot of people. Pretty annoying to pop a freighter which logs and get nothing for it. Yes I'm quite confident Dev's sit thinking on ways to cause players pain.
Pussey Spankratchet	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:40:00 - [62] Originally by: FatChance Agree with what has already been posted: Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Totaly agree here on non-payement if used for illegal activity. There is a clause in alot of motor insurances for just this reason.
Tressia	Posted - 2007.03.27 23:48:00 - [63] Originally by: Turas Kain ...stuff YAY, someone griefing my posts I already see what side of this discussion you are on so of course nothing I say will be accepted by you. Good thing I'm not trying to convince you of anything I'm just pointing out how "I" see it and so could care less what you have to say in regards to my comments. Popping freighters in high sec without a war dec is griefing in my eyes. Wow, I feel liberated that I can have an opinion and no one can take that away, even those pesky post griefers
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:00:00 - [64] Yup, you got me there - by your opinion I'm probably a griefer. My opinion could be you are a small jar of orange zest marmalade of course. It does not change the fact your are probably not
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 00:35:00 - [65] Originally by: FatChance Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Agreed. This also highlights the problems (as mentioned) with meta-gaming, especially the ubiquitous use of noob-corped alts to act with complete anonymity and without any risk to your main. Encouraging this is a poor policy on the part of CCP.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.28 04:34:00 - [66] Originally by: Turas Kain Originally by: Tressia You obviously did not understand my statement. snip I seem to have understood what you said: Originally by: Tressia This becoming a common occurrence is considered "greifing" in my book. You are incorrect, it is not griefing as I explained in my post. How common it is has no effect on wether it is griefing or not. Why shouldn't freighters drop loot when all other ships do? Because they don't get module slots, cannot drop or pick up cans in space, cannot dock or interface with a POS like the rest of the ships in the game. And a fix like this will make a big positive difference to a lot of people. Pretty annoying to pop a freighter which logs and get nothing for it. Yes I'm quite confident Dev's sit thinking on ways to cause players pain. Your sarcasm may be closer to the truth than you know.
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 05:19:00 - [67] Insurace should never payout if you are killed by Concord. My car insurace doesn't pay if I damage my car while using it to rob a bank. Snip for trolling - Timmeh - 27/3/07 My first mod edit.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:21:00 - [68] I vote for letting freighters jet-can stuff and make drop-offs and pick-ups from POS's as compensation for this new loot dropping ability.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:37:00 - [69] Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? /me starts training the alt for remote repair...
Kerosene Caldari Fun Inc Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:47:00 - [70] imo it's an exploit. The drones should get ECM'd as well as the aggressors and tbh I'd petition as such. __ I really don't need BoB propaganda here any more. Let's embrace yiffy.

Lord Hentacle	Posted - 2007.03.28 06:52:00 - [71] To the OP: Has it ever occured to you that CCP may not have intended any of the behaviour that gets played out in EVE every day? They've said, over and over again, that all they did was build a big sandbox, impose some game rules via mechanics, and impose some social rules to prevent personal attacks on the players (not the characters). I doubt they sat down in 2001 and said, "Hmmm, let's make sure we design a system so people can suicide gank." I suspect they were probably rather surprised when the first person did that and made a good profit from doing so. I'll even go so far as to imagine the reaction was something like, "They did what? Really? And made how much? Cool!" Let's use a little bit of logic here. The EVE universe is populated by pilots who have clones. Those clones are designed to replace a dead pilot within moments of their death, with memories and skills that typically go right up to the moment of their death. They even use these clones to jump across the galaxy faster than they could travel even WITH FTL jump drives. If that's the case, why would a pilot NOT be willing to risk a relatively low cost ship and the disorienting effects of being clone jumped at the instant of death, in order to make more money than they can make normally in months of piloting? Suicide gankers are not the problem. Pilots who refuse to learn how to defend themselves against that tactic are the problem. Hopefully, they'll learn or be weeded out soon.
Tiuwaz Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Shameless Avenger Originally by: Trojanman190 do you have any idea how expensive it is to repair over 100,000 structure? /me starts training the alt for remote repair... remote hull reppers dont exist, go buy a clue or better start playing the game the only thing that needs changing is that there should be no insurance payout if you get killed by concord, it makes no sense whatsoever ___________________________________
Arvalds Bank	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:19:00 - [73] Edited by: Arvalds Bank on 28/03/2007 07:15:36 Originally by: Creed Richards Originally by: hydraSlav Edited by: hydraSlav on 27/03/2007 18:08:56 So what is this really about? Your days of hauling millions/billons worth of goods in a freighter AFK are over? . Valuable cargo has to be protected, whether it is in 0.0 or elsewhere I do own a freighter sir, but I've only used it once in that manner, and it's not only freighter pilots who are affected by suicide ganking. It is based on principle that I protest this. But let me ask you this, if Concord cannot protect pilots in high sec, what's the point? CCP might as well set all system sec status to 0.4 to 0.0 to make it clear just how vulnerable we are. ok think of it like this if you want to go kill anyone the police dont know your going to do it beforehand (most of the time anyways) so they can only catch you AFTER you have killed someon , same with in eve concord cant kill the pepole who are going to kill you before they do they can only kill themback
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:20:00 - [74] Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Originally by: FatChance Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Agreed. This also highlights the problems (as mentioned) with meta-gaming, especially the ubiquitous use of noob-corped alts to act with complete anonymity and without any risk to your main. Encouraging this is a poor policy on the part of CCP. What about all the noob corp alts flying the damn freighters? hmm? should we take their insurance away because they are using the noob corp to keep them safe from wars they fight with their mains? What is so hard about defending a freighter.. what is so crazy about the idea that billions and billions of isk should be gaurded by a few logistics ships... You know if someone aggresses in high sec you can shoot them, if they steal from your corp mate you can shoot them... oh wait.. all the freighters are in noob corps so they are war dec proof OH WAIT NOW I SEE IT. ITS CCP'S WAY OF EVENING THE SCORE WITH ALL THE ALTS HIDING IN NOOB CORPS. Killing a freighter in high sec is not easy. Keeping one alive is. Just use a scout for gods sakes... or fly with some logistics ships to rep you until concord dispatches the threat... its not rocket surgery. Hiding in noob corps and trucking all your hard earned (or in the case of Outbreak killing a bob freighter, deceitfully earned) isk around high sec with impunity is not what eve is about. If you lose a freighter in high sec its really no ones fault but your own... I like this new change... It will make things interesting in the next few months, sadly I can see the price of Dominix's rising again Bring on the Freighter Kills... the addition of loot makes it even more worthwhile, So insure your freighter... its not that expensive... and dont fly what you cant afford to lose. Make multiple trips... unless you really **** someone off then they will cargo scan you to see if its worthwhile killing your freighter. Suicide ganking is nothing new, making a decent profit from it would be....
Horus Dark	Posted - 2007.03.28 07:40:00 - [75] didnt bother reading the intire post. As said valuable cargo should be protected. However i am against peeps with bilions isk ganking noob01 who just spend all his cash to buy his first frig. But its hard to solve that without hurting diffrent parts of the game.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:07:00 - [76] Originally by: umop 3pisdn So insure your freighter... its not that expensive... and dont fly what you cant afford to lose. Make multiple trips... unless you really **** someone off then they will cargo scan you to see if its worthwhile killing your freighter. Suicide ganking is nothing new, making a decent profit from it would be.... Insure your Freighter? You're kidding right? Insuring a Freighter is a worse deal than insuring a HAC or Hulk. Insure my 900 mil Freighter for around 150 - 200 mil and get back maybe 500 mil? Wait...gets worse...lost my 5 billion cargo to boot. Please...insurance on that loss is a joke. As for remote repping forget it. Have you watched the video of the freighter gank? It took 20 seconds from the moment the freighter appeared till its death and that includes lock time. Actual time to kill is more like 15 seconds. So, they knocked off roughly 183,000 hitpoints in 15 seconds or something more than 12,200 DPS. What kind of remote repping system will keep up with that?
Le Cook Amarr Black Omega Security GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:18:00 - [77] Originally by: Humpalot Quote: As for hauler ganking, having done it myself more then once, dont make it worthwile to be ganked and put a little effort in a tank and dont go afk. Tell me how I tank a Freighter? Train Shield Management and Shield Operation, Maybee your Passive Shieldtank holds
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:26:00 - [78] It's very very simple. It is down to the player to ensure that any high value goods that would encourage one or more suicide "ganker(s)" are well protected and there are plenty of means to do so. - Move small items in very fast ships (makes it nearly impossible for any scouts to scan you and determine if you're just in a hurry or have somthing of value and it's very unlikely someone will risk losing their ship and mods to concord for a possibly empty frigate). - Fit whatever mods you can to increase your ships shields and armour (if you have spare isk having a slave set or even part a partial set + hardwirings and maybe rigs). Also look into the transport ships (t2 indies) which come with better resistences. It's amazing how many times when someone complains about suicide attacks in high sec space it turns out they were moving several billion isk in goods in a paper thin indy with no protection at all. - Either have some friends or pay someone to fly with your ship and run remote reps and/or logistic drones when someone targets you in high sec. - Avoid the main hubs if possible. Most suicide attacks go on in the busiest systems where there is the highest chance of encountering high value goods in poorly defended ships. While it may mean a few extra jumps plotting a route around main hubs you don't need to go to helps reduce the risks considerably. As people have already said, high sec space is SAFER, that doesn't make it safe. Use some common sense and you'll be fine.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:39:00 - [79] Originally by: Wild Rho It's very very simple. It is down to the player to ensure that any high value goods that would encourage one or more suicide "ganker(s)" are well protected and there are plenty of means to do so. - Move small items in very fast ships (makes it nearly impossible for any scouts to scan you and determine if you're just in a hurry or have somthing of value and it's very unlikely someone will risk losing their ship and mods to concord for a possibly empty frigate). - Fit whatever mods you can to increase your ships shields and armour (if you have spare isk having a slave set or even part a partial set + hardwirings and maybe rigs). Also look into the transport ships (t2 indies) which come with better resistences. It's amazing how many times when someone complains about suicide attacks in high sec space it turns out they were moving several billion isk in goods in a paper thin indy with no protection at all. - Either have some friends or pay someone to fly with your ship and run remote reps and/or logistic drones when someone targets you in high sec. - Avoid the main hubs if possible. Most suicide attacks go on in the busiest systems where there is the highest chance of encountering high value goods in poorly defended ships. While it may mean a few extra jumps plotting a route around main hubs you don't need to go to helps reduce the risks considerably. As people have already said, high sec space is SAFER, that doesn't make it safe. Use some common sense and you'll be fine. All this can only come from someone who has never had to haul much more than a few mods before. 1) We are talking about freighters. They positively suck to fly. If I have a tiny bit ot move then it will be in something else. 2) Again we are on about freighters. No mods. No rigs. No nothing except a monster cargo hold. Transport ships and indies are not a fair option. It'd take my Iteron-V more than 20 hauls to move what I can move in one haul of my freighter. 3) Remote rep? See my previous post. Maybe with a fleet it would help but not going to help with a few friends along. 4) There are chokpoints all over and pirates know where they are. Yes you can re-route to an extent but not always. Additionally you may have to go somewhere for whatever it is you are after. Not a lot of choice beyond skipping it altogether.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:42:00 - [80] Its kinda difficult to fill 900k m3 with things not being worth a suicide gank attack. I am not entirely against the possibility for such attacks tho, but i think it should require more than 15 bs pilots to do it sucessfully. Currently its kind of a "win"-button for any decent pirate corp.

TerrorWOLF J.H.E.N.R Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.28 08:46:00 - [81] Oh good let the freighter hunting commence. Broken Risk vs Reward 4TW. Freighter pilot: Risk: - Losing freighter, 900 mill + 400 mill insurance = 600-700 mill pay out, 0 - a few bill in cargo Reward: - None !! Maybe being abel to play the game? (Makes me wonder am i being payed to play the game??) PS: No scouts do now work, you do not know if everyone in local will jump to gate as soon as freighter jumps in, freighter has no chance of escape do to long warp time. Escort wont help because freighter dies to fast Hunters: Risk: - None !!! The lost sec. status can be regained in less then 2 hours. The ships lost to concord are repaid from insurance. You get modules for free from NPC drops. Reward: - Every thing that is left in the cargo 0 - a few bill. PS: If hunters put in 2 minuets of planing freighter has no chance of escape. Welcome to the new EVE experience. May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
Dr Aryandi Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:00:00 - [82] Originally by: TerrorWOLF Oh good let the freighter hunting commence. Broken Risk vs Reward 4TW. Freighter pilot: Risk: - Losing freighter, 900 mill + 400 mill insurance = 600-700 mill pay out, 0 - a few bill in cargo Reward: - None !! Maybe being abel to play the game? (Makes me wonder am i being payed to play the game??) PS: No scouts do now work, you do not know if everyone in local will jump to gate as soon as freighter jumps in, freighter has no chance of escape do to long warp time. Escort wont help because freighter dies to fast Hunters: Risk: - None !!! The lost sec. status can be regained in less then 2 hours. The ships lost to concord are repaid from insurance. You get modules for free from NPC drops. Reward: - Every thing that is left in the cargo 0 - a few bill. PS: If hunters put in 2 minuets of planing freighter has no chance of escape. Welcome to the new EVE experience. Well said. I fly my freighter around and I used to use it to haul battleships/battlecruisers around to various markets. And no I'm not in an alt corp, I am in my own corp. Now I am waiting until things settle down and I can work out what the max value to safely haul is - but it's almost certainly so low that it's no longer worth my time. So I guess my billion investment in a freighter gets used to haul trit around. At the very least switch a load of the freighter's structure HP to armour/shield ones (or add armour/shield ones). You can then use command ships in gang to get armour resist bonusses, use remote reps rather than paying a fortune to repair, etc, etc. Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:05:00 - [83] i just worked out how to protect a freighter from suicide dominixes. you need a wing man in a smart bomb abaddon yup, he loses his abaddon to concord, but he takes out all the drones with him. if you get it right, he wont even hit the freighter with his smarties im thinking mwd, lots of resists and plates, highs full of smarties. if nothing else, be damn fun
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:10:00 - [84] Originally by: umop 3pisdn What is so hard about defending a freighter.. It's not that it's hard. It's that it's not possible. Freighters are not treated the same as any other ship in the game in a number of important areas. Willfully ignoring this and pretending that they are combat viable is just not reasonable. Combine this with the giggling no-place-is-safe alt "tactics" (exploits) of sganking ships in all security zones and, as far as I am concerned, you've moved from PvP to GvP. If I am prevented by game mechanics from fighting back, defending myself or even taking revenge, then I expect those exact same game mechanics to protect me. Finding a way around that is (ab)using game mechanics to your advantage and my detriment. Personally I call that a problem, label it however you like.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:31:00 - [85] I approve of "suicide ganking". It helps remove the bizarre misconception some people seem to have that there are or should be "safe" areas in EVE.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:47:00 - [86] Edited by: Wild Rho on 28/03/2007 10:47:14 Originally by: Humpalot All this can only come from someone who has never had to haul much more than a few mods before. 1) We are talking about freighters. They positively suck to fly. If I have a tiny bit ot move then it will be in something else. I spend a hell of alot of time moving goods from capital components to trade goods in a freighter so don't be so quick to make assumptions. It's also not unknown that many people WILL move even small expensive mods in freighters becuase until recently no one would be willing to expend the number of ships on a freighter suicide run when there is no chance of loot dropping. Originally by: Humpalot 2) Again we are on about freighters. No mods. No rigs. No nothing except a monster cargo hold. Transport ships and indies are not a fair option. It'd take my Iteron-V more than 20 hauls to move what I can move in one haul of my freighter. No but there are slave implants and armoured/siege warfare gang skills. Remember, you don't need to tank them, you just need to last longer than them. My above post was a more universal approach than a freighter specific one in any case. Originally by: Humpalot 3) Remote rep? See my previous post. Maybe with a fleet it would help but not going to help with a few friends along. Yes it would, especially with a freighter since it has a nice large hp buffer to give remote support time to act. As I said above, you simply have to outlast them while concord does the job. Remote reps on logistic cruisers are much more effective than many people would give credit for and logistic drones shouldn't be discounted either. Adding to what I said in the previous quote you can also have a ship with gang mods to boost the ships resistances (and gang skills boosting hps) as well, further increasing your durability. Yes it's a fair commitment for simply moving some goods, however it's down to the player to determine if their cargo is worth the effort or whether they'd prefer to take their chances with suicide squads. The tools have been provided, it's up the players to decide to use them or not. Originally by: Humpalot 4) There are chokpoints all over and pirates know where they are. Yes you can re-route to an extent but not always. Additionally you may have to go somewhere for whatever it is you are after. Not a lot of choice beyond skipping it altogether. That's why I said "where possible". No you can't always cut the danger zones out of your routes but you can make an attempt to minimize it where you can. As for going somewhere, that's only an issue if someone knows where you're going and what your carrying which is only possibly if you have given that information out to someone (in which case you're just asking for trouble). In the end it's true that if an enemy is really determined to kill your freighter then there isn't alot you can do about it (if they are willing to commit to those kinds of loses). In that case you would need to ask why someone is willing to losing so many ships just to kill yours.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 10:59:00 - [87] "By the way, it makes no sense to have any high sec systems if one entity can take advantage of the war dec system to practically make no high sec area safe (relatively)." Um, what else are war decs for?
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:01:00 - [88] Originally by: FatChance Agree with what has already been posted: Freighters have no defense capabilities, not even drones. Insurance payout for thiefs and griefers. Strongly believe if you get concorded, no insurance. Until some miner gets "exploited" into concordokken...?
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:02:00 - [89] Remove the insurance payout for criminally flagged people. Yes, also no basic insurance payout. That should fix risk vs. reward for the 'ganker' already. Well, and since every criminal gets jammed by concord, drones could get jammed, too. They are jam'able, so why not. Problem solved, or not ? ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:17:00 - [90] I just gotta aska few questions here. 1. doesnt freighters get bonuses from cmd skills ? higher resist and faster speed ? 2. Why not have a couple of friends in remote repping ships along ? Yes they put out a lot of dmg but seeing that 3 logistic ships could probably rep long enough for concord to finish the pirates of before the pop the freighter. And if possible combine this with question 1 for greater success. 3. Since when did eve become a single player game? Get some corp mates to help rep you if you are hauling something exspensive. A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. 4. Why should "pirates or any wrong doer" loose their insurance ? We are moving towards simplifying eve to the point that you really dont even need to be at the computer.

Dravin Dread	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:45:00 - [91] Originally by: Kylana Darkfate Eve is the only MMORPG I've seen that supports and encourages griefing. Why do you think it's attracting so many immature kiddies as of late? /Signed ... and it's not just "of late" - grief play has been part of Eve for a long time. Eve attempts to legitimize griefing and the griefers take advantage of it, making claims that "it's not grief, it's for profit and fun!" which is self deluded and morally bankrupt. Fact is, it is not going to change. So the option is, don't get into griefable situations, test on each patch to limit your exposure - ignore the aspects of the game that are subject to ass hats and enjoy the parts that are left.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:50:00 - [92] Quote: A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. it aint. i dont know how much you are into trading, but theres alot of thinking and market analyses that goes along with it. not only are you allready in a pvp situation with all the other traders, but also now all it needs is a halfway decent pirate corp flying by to vanish billions of you invested capital, - which also werent guaranteed to pay back if you're lucky and get through. in regards to getting corpmates together to escort you, - yeah, theyll propably do that once or twice, but if i have to ask for a 10 ship escort every week, its not gonna work out. people falsly assume that only because you can move lots of items from a to b, that would automaticly generate tons of isk - it doesnt.
Rabbitual Ferrier	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:51:00 - [93] Ok I don't know much about freighters, but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Secure cans. Often it means your loot is destroyed, but that kind of prevents the ganker gaining benefit. Also doesn't that prevent a cargo scanner reading? Escort ships might help. Because when popped they could add to the wreck/cans, and then when the alts take something they're flaged. Also if you're ganged with the shot down ship, you should be able to fire on them when they rob the can/wreck Fitting. I agree that maybe transports need to have some low and mid slots (like the industrials do). From the CCP end theres not much that can be done. Allowing insurance to be invalid if podded by concord can create a number of situations (such as doing Thukker mission, serpentis mission etc..).
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:52:00 - [94] Originally by: Creed Richards On person suggested what would be done, well, as you said, turning off the ability to fire on non hostile targets is a good start, perhaps with use of beacons at stations and gates. Their field of effect would extend further out the higher the security status went, while in 0.5 it would only cover gates and stations. Even if this would be an option that can be deactived from the menu, please make it so! My last unintended podkill in high sec cost me 12% sec rating.
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 11:53:00 - [95] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Ok I don't know much about freighters, but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Freighters take a lot of time to align, even with skills maxed out it takes forever.
Ralara Caldari Lilandri Foundation	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:38:00 - [96] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier Ok I don't know much about freighters, Clearly not :) Quote: but should the warp to zero function make just about everything close to perfectly safe in high sec space? Certainly not and it doesn't with freighters - they turn slowly to align - it can take over 30 seconds in some cases to turn and get into warp. That's more than enough time for someone to lock the vessel, web it (make it slower, turn slower), you only need one scrambler on it. Quote: Secure cans. Often it means your loot is destroyed, but that kind of prevents the ganker gaining benefit. Also doesn't that prevent a cargo scanner reading? No you can scan through secure cans. Quote: Fitting. I agree that maybe transports need to have some low and mid slots (like the industrials do). Transports are tech 2 industrials. Do you mean freighters? And no, certainly not. They'd just get filled with tanks then. I'm a corp thief. And remember, I only do it because I like your robot.
Kamikazi ONE Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.03.28 12:59:00 - [97] One idea might be to make scanning a ship an agressive act in the same way as stealing loot from a can. That way the freighter pilot and his corp now have the option of initiating defensive operations rather than waiting for the attackers ro move first.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:27:00 - [98] Originally by: Heroldyn Quote: A freigther shouldnt be a solo ISK machine that is untouchable. it aint. i dont know how much you are into trading, but theres alot of thinking and market analyses that goes along with it. not only are you allready in a pvp situation with all the other traders, but also now all it needs is a halfway decent pirate corp flying by to vanish billions of you invested capital, - which also werent guaranteed to pay back if you're lucky and get through. in regards to getting corpmates together to escort you, - yeah, theyll propably do that once or twice, but if i have to ask for a 10 ship escort every week, its not gonna work out. people falsly assume that only because you can move lots of items from a to b, that would automaticly generate tons of isk - it doesnt. Im sorry but for thats not a valid argument, i mean i fight in lowsec with ships worth about 300 - 500 mill everyday i risk my assets knowingly and so do you. And seeing that a freighter doesnt have any slots but massive amounts of HP instead and concord to protect it gives you a greater chance then me to survive. If i land in a gate camp just like you im equally dead no matter what. only diffrence is that your aggressors get killed mine doesnt. Which gives you a some what small revenge.
Ling Xiao	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:39:00 - [99] Originally by: Rabbitual Ferrier From the CCP end theres not much that can be done. Allowing insurance to be invalid if podded by concord can create a number of situations (such as doing Thukker mission, serpentis mission etc..). Mission drones are a separate category from actual CONCORD police ships. Which is why I can kill DED personnel in my mission and still fly safely past CONCORD ships on the way back __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Velt Lhasar North Face Force Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 13:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Ki An I find it amusing that when suiciders use untouchable alts to pick up the loot, it's bad and should be changed, but when people use THE SAME METHOD stealing loot from the Privateers, it's perfectly fine, and even funny. The carebear's mind is a strange thing. /Ki QFT

Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:13:00 - [101] Edited by: Heroldyn on 28/03/2007 14:09:23 Originally by: Gaia Thorn ... i mean i fight in lowsec.. we are not talking about lowsec.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:28:00 - [102] Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 14:24:31 I know this has already been said numerous times by people before me in this thread, but it bears repeating. You are NEVER safe in space. Never. There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Think before you haul and remember that only you can prevent suicide ganking. Stop crying to CCP to think for you. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Heroldyn	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:33:00 - [103] Originally by: Raivi Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 14:24:31 I know this has already been said numerous times by people before me in this thread, but it bears repeating. You are NEVER safe in space. Never. There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Think before you haul and remember that only you can prevent suicide ganking. Stop crying to CCP to think for you. indeed, has been said numerous times, but doesnt make it any better. Smart Pilot with a few friends: if you have friends who escort your freighter every second day, fine- i find such helpfull people kinda rare. Warp to zero: doesnt matter. the aligning-time alone gives attackers enough time to warpscramble you.
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.03.28 14:40:00 - [104] This has already been said and it is the only logical step: Invalidate insurance where the victim is destroyed by concord. There are other good ideas but that is the first step CCP should take. I would like to see: All attackers on non hostile targets in high sec to be flagged hostile to EVERYONE (not just concord). Pod to be flagged also to players only (not concord). Collector of loot that does not have permission from owner to be flagged (including pod) to all players. (Loot permission to be transferred by owned by right clicking on can "allow access to:" - by default, corp has access.) This lets the players deal with suicide gankers. I'm sure there'd be lots of people hanging around Jita waiting for a suicide ganker so they can get some easy kills.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:05:00 - [105] Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 15:02:04 Originally by: Heroldyn indeed, has been said numerous times, but doesnt make it any better. Smart Pilot with a few friends: if you have friends who escort your freighter every second day, fine- i find such helpfull people kinda rare. Warp to zero: doesnt matter. the aligning-time alone gives attackers enough time to warpscramble you. If you use the bookmark in a straight line from the gate aligning time is reduced to essentially zero. That means that even if a fast locking opponent scrambles you, you can warp off as soon as your enemies get jammed by Concord. If you have enough money to fill a freighter with valuable goods, you should have either some friends help you move it, or hire somebody to help. (Hiring a new player is really cheap) In this game you can't be 100% safe when transporting goods in the most vulnerable ship in the game alone. Even in high-sec. That is intentional and endorsed by the devs. Yes having friends help you is a hassle, but hassle free 100% safe transporting of freighter loads of valuable cargo isn't something anyone is entitled to. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Doomed Predator Order Of The Sentinel FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:14:00 - [106] So your protesing eh? Doomed Predator gets the riot hose Excesive force my as
Lab Technician071548	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:47:00 - [107] There are some problems here that I think are being overlooked. I do not believe that suicide ganking is griefing but I do think that making it profitable to suicide gank freighters in safer space is problematic for the game. I don't say this because I think everyone should have an I-Win button for moving their faction / officer XL shield booster 30 jumps without fear of loss. I say this because putting industrialists at significant risk puts the market at significant risk of changes that are anything but consumer friendly. Most of the posts here seem to be aimed at mythical or, at least, unnamed cartels hauling freighters full of high end minerals or t2 goods and, omg, how can they be allowed to do that? That's not really what freighters are used for on a daily basis. High ends are now carrier jumped to low sec and hauled in transports relatively safely. Let's talk about the most common uses of freighters. They aren't used so much by 0.0 alliances to transport goods for sale through empire space. They are used by medium to large industrial organizations to move raw goods and manufactured products throughout the galaxy for you to have available and to use however you see fit in the game (ironically, even to use for suicide ganking freighters, ha ha). Every BS in the game is manufactured by a player. Each player who manufactures one has to centralize the minerals to manufacture it. Every medium to large industrial operation must then also distribute their goods for sale. Significantly raising the risks of doing so will significantly reduce item availability and, thereby also reduce competition, resulting in substantially raised prices. Industrial procurement and distribution are not fun tasks and not something that is an easy concept to base a corporation on. That is: it's more work than play to do on any real scale. Would you like to be involved in 3-7 freighter ops every week? Probably not. Just use an alt in a logistics ship you say? Warp to zero? Think about this for a minute: warping to 0 in a freighter is perhaps the only thing more tedious in this game than ice mining. Upon jumping, you have to decloak so your alt, which also had to be warped to zero manually, can see you, decloak, hit the sensor boosters, lock you and crank on the remote armor reppers. Rinse and repeat 20 times for a 10 jump round trip. Who wants to do that? Even if you did find a sufficiently masochistic person, according to my calculations, a single logistics ship will not be able to prevent a reasonably planned suicide gank attempt. Anybody who gets into such a big project will use sufficient means to ensure its success. How would you like to be the guy whose suicide gank attempt failure video made it to youtube? If it becomes common to blow up freighters carrying either a) billions in minerals or b) billions in finished products (e.g. more battleships than were required to take down the freighter), you will see market competition decrease significantly and prices rise for everyone. No insurance payout for a concordokken Kill or jam the drones as well Remove the loot drop feature or add significant means to defend a freighter that does not involve making it a corporation freighter op because it's simply not practical to do so to support industry. Not enough people will put up with doing business that way to keep the market healthy. If you thought tech 2 cartels were bad, wait until you see 150+ million ISK tier 2 battleships become the norm in Jita.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.28 15:55:00 - [108] Originally by: Creed Richards You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? People who wanted to be safe never were. Originally by: Creed Richards Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! CCP have proven that they will not turn EVE into WoW in space just to get more subs. Also, people in game only have the rights that CCP give them, and to be safe is not one of them. Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? No. Originally by: Creed Richards Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. If they 'desire' WoW in space, no they don't. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:14:00 - [109] Originally by: Raivi There are many things you can do to keep yourself safe. A smart freighter pilot with a few friends is nearly impossible to kill in high sec. A lot easier than you think...let's go through your list. Quote: Try using warp to zero instead of autopilot (in the famous case of the Outbreak Karma gank the target was autopiloting it) WTZ is useless as the Freighter ganks happens on the jump in. Quote: Create a bookmark in a straight line from the gate and use a frigate to web the freighter = virtually instant warping away from the gate. Huh? It has been my impression that on jump in your are placed randomly around the gate facing a random direction so how do you make a bookmark in a straight line from the gate that makes certain the freighter does not have to align? And even if right I do not relish the thought of a return to a zillion bookmarks just so I can travel about. Also, webbing friggie helps but I would hardly call it instawarp for the freighter. Quote: SCOUT! Scout scout scout scout scout! If you don't scout when carrying valuable cargo you don't deserve to survive. Scouts can quite easily be dealt with and likely will be. All the suicide gankers need to do is sit at a SS a few thousand kilometers away and leave two or three shuttles or frigs or inties or whatever near the gate. Freighter uncloaks and they zip in and start bumping him to hell and back ruining his alignment. Very easily done on a freighter and even if he has guards they can do nothing about it. Gank squad warps to 10km on on of the shuttles and let the fireworks commence. Remote rep the freighter? As I said before when the attackers are dishing out well over 12,000 DPS you'd need quite a few to stop the gank. Watch the gank vid of the freighter...it went down in 15 seconds. That would allow for what...2 rep cycles? At the rate they were doing damage it would have taken a fleet of repping ships to save that thing.
Lab Technician071548	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:32:00 - [110] I get the distinct impression that some responders do not actually ever pilot freighters. This business about webbing the freighter? While it does make the freighter turn faster, it still makes a 4x1600 reinforced steel plate tanked out megathron seem gazelle like as it aligns.

Dread Phantom Caldari Project-Chaos	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:36:00 - [111] here we go again, amazing how many people play this game so confused about what it is, EVE is a dark evil game at times
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:40:00 - [112] On any of my chacters that are haulers I add shield extenders and resists, and at least one wcs at all times. I place all items into a secure can. I travel with my cans everywhere. I never place anything outside of the can so no one knows if I have anything int he can or not. and don't sit at gates for long period of time either.
Lab Technician071548 Astro-Support Services	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:44:00 - [113] Originally by: John Blackthorn On any of my chacters that are haulers I add shield extenders and resists, and at least one wcs at all times. I place all items into a secure can. I travel with my cans everywhere. I never place anything outside of the can so no one knows if I have anything int he can or not. and don't sit at gates for long period of time either. Freighters are not haulers: they have no slots to fit modules. Cans in your cargo space can be scanned: using them does not disguise or conceal your cargo in any way. If you have a simple solution, you don't understand the problem.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:45:00 - [114] Originally by: Humpalot WTZ is useless as the Freighter ganks happens on the jump in. This was just clearing an obvious one so that for the rest of my comments I could just worry about the far side of the gate. You are absolutely correct that what matters is the jump in because if someone is autopiloting it then they're a lost cause. Quote: Huh? It has been my impression that on jump in your are placed randomly around the gate facing a random direction so how do you make a bookmark in a straight line from the gate that makes certain the freighter does not have to align? And even if right I do not relish the thought of a return to a zillion bookmarks just so I can travel about. Also, webbing friggie helps but I would hardly call it instawarp for the freighter. Location is random. Orientation is not (at least not significantly). Jump through a gate a few times and you'll see that every gate has a "facing direction" and when you jump through you end up facing the same direction as the gate. Yes creating and using these bookmarks is a chore, but if you're carrying cargo that valuable, it's worth the effort. The OP seems to be claiming that there is nothing a freighter can do to escape suicide ganks, which is incorrect. The tradeoff for safety is that it requires forethought and preparation. Nothing should come for free in this game. Quote: Scouts can quite easily be dealt with and likely will be. All the suicide gankers need to do is sit at a SS a few thousand kilometers away and leave two or three shuttles or frigs or inties or whatever near the gate. Freighter uncloaks and they zip in and start bumping him to hell and back ruining his alignment. Very easily done on a freighter and even if he has guards they can do nothing about it. Gank squad warps to 10km on on of the shuttles and let the fireworks commence. You're right that scouts are not a perfect defense by themselves, however as part of a complete defense plan they are very very useful. Nothing can keep you 100% by itself, and even with the best preparation it is possible (although very very very hard) to suicide gank a freighter. However if you plan your route ahead of time, make the correct precautions and bring limited support (webbers and scouts, maybe a smartbombing BS to take care of drones if you want to be really really careful) then you'll be extremely safe. You are again correct that remote repairers are of very limited value in this kind of situation, but they're not the only kind of support that you can bring. Try thinking outside the box, developing strategies using ECM bursts, smartbombs, and maybe sensor dampers. In the end, it all comes down to being better prepared, better supported, and downright better than the people trying to kill you. It takes work to beat a suicide gank, but it's always your choice; you can do the homework and be very very safe, or you can decide to wing it and take advantage of the relatively low odds that any specific freighter will get ganked. Risk, reward and effort. Nothing comes for free. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:46:00 - [115] Originally by: Dread Phantom here we go again, amazing how many people play this game so confused about what it is, EVE is a dark evil game at times Not confused about anything. In fact I have no problem with Freighters dropping loot IF CCP gave me decent escort tools so the thing could be saved. And/or make a suicide gank something more than a no brainer calculation of, "I lose X and gain Y...if Y > X attack". There is no real risk v. reward there as the risks are perfectly understood and quantified and so are the rewards. Add to that the risks are even nerfed by a stupid payout from the game to the "law breakers" for breaking the law making their lives even simpler. Just want some balance. If I AFK a Freighter with 50 bil of stuff inside I get what's coming to me but if I gather a guard of 10 ships and pay attention then the results should be different and as it stands now that is not the case.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:47:00 - [116] Originally by: Lab Technician071548 If you have a simple solution, you don't understand the problem. I completely agree. However, one should not rule out the effectiveness of less simple solutions. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.28 16:53:00 - [117] Edited by: Aindrias on 28/03/2007 16:50:54 I'm all for "not being safe anywhere" (tbh, I think that's a lame ExplOMFGPwN4TW-Lemme-do-whatever-I-want-w/o-risk-player excuse, but I digress) and I'm all for 0.0 Lawlessness. But there are laws in higher/high-sec systems, but they're as wacked and senseless like many real world laws. Basically, I hear from this thread... Use a cargo container to ship your stuff in a freighter, if you don't like it, shove it because you're not safe anywhere. What diff does it make? If you get scanned and you have cargo containers in your hold, the odds are good your going to have enough stuff to make it worth the suicide gank. Run Protection in high-sec. Um.. ok.. CONCORD are the police of space, Why TF should we have to run protection when the police are right there? No body should be able to steal from cargo right in front of the police, sure, you maybe able to suicide gank a freighter. Everyone dies in your party from CONCORD, "But OW NOES!!??? you mean I can't use my no risk alt character to loot the cargo right in front of the police? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" It would be different if you coordinated with other actual players to get the loot, but no, the ALTS W/O a care in the world do it. It's pansy and cowardly. You're the biggest reason why people join NPC corps and make ALTS to haul and then YOU complain about it. I don't see why Pirates are the only players that deserve a reward and allowed to exploit the system. Oh.. "WAAAAAAAAAAAA it's a PvP game" OOOOOOK, you try running a PvP only game w/o industrials to make your ships for you or you forced to have 3 alts to be your support group (some people like to pay $50 a month for a game FFS) Actually, let's find a better name, "suicide" implies you actually die on purpose, when in this game, you don't die. You lose a ship which i and maybe a little money in clone upgrading if podded. How bout "STUPID-cide" or "Explo-cide" maybe "Find-every-lame-excuse-to-do-whatever-I-and-call-those-that-don't-agree-with-me-whiners-cide". Turning this game into a One Dimensional Ganker/PvP Fest doesn't do it justice when CCP has put much effort into things like the MArket or Contracts... Taking insurance from CONCORDED ships is a marvelous idea and would cut deeply into profits, but it may not be quite enough with multiple billions in the cargo hold. OHHHH THE SUFFERING! I CAN'T DO WHAT I WANT IN FRONT OF THE POLICE!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAA! Aind
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:00:00 - [118] Originally by: Raivi You are again correct that remote repairers are of very limited value in this kind of situation, but they're not the only kind of support that you can bring. Try thinking outside the box, developing strategies using ECM bursts, smartbombs, and maybe sensor dampers. I have considered these strategies and was kinda hoping the smartbombing battleship would stay in the box till some suicide gankers got surprised by it . That said in defense of my Freighter I will almost certainly lose the smartbombing battleship to CONCORD. All the pirates have to do is leave one (or more) bumping ships out of the gang and the defender is toast. Add to that whatever sec hits come with that (especially if the smartbombing Apoc pods a few people which is likely in this case). Would I lose the Apoc in defense of the freighter? In a heartbeat...be worth it just to watch 100 drones and 20 other battleships go poof. Nevertheless as a hauler that makes it a rather expensive haul and how many times can I defend myself before sec hits force me out of the guarding business?
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:06:00 - [119] i'm gonna fit out a ship with a rocket launcher and suicide gank a freighter pilot. For about one second they will think "today is the day it happens to me, i always knew..." then they will laugh :) Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:11:00 - [120] Edited by: Avon on 28/03/2007 17:07:32 Here we go again... When 15 escorts can't protect you against 15 gankers then there is a problem, but at the moment they can. Arguing that you don't think it is fair that your solo gameplay has to be compromised to counter organised groups is, frankly, whinging. You have Concord helping you, the sentry guns helping you, and your friends helping you. All you have to do is kill some damn drones and if you are really bad at that, remote rep the freighter while you are at it. Rocket science? No. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:13:00 - [121] Edited by: Raivi on 28/03/2007 17:11:32 Originally by: Humpalot I have considered these strategies and was kinda hoping the smartbombing battleship would stay in the box till some suicide gankers got surprised by it . That said in defense of my Freighter I will almost certainly lose the smartbombing battleship to CONCORD. All the pirates have to do is leave one (or more) bumping ships out of the gang and the defender is toast. Add to that whatever sec hits come with that (especially if the smartbombing Apoc pods a few people which is likely in this case). Would I lose the Apoc in defense of the freighter? In a heartbeat...be worth it just to watch 100 drones and 20 other battleships go poof. Nevertheless as a hauler that makes it a rather expensive haul and how many times can I defend myself before sec hits force me out of the guarding business? Yeah although it would be fairly costly in insurace and sec status, failed suicide ganks would be really funny. I'm sure that a little exposure here won't really reduce the effectiveness of smartbombs, as even with the danger of losing your drones and therefore your DPS, drone ships are still by far the best way to suicide gank. As for keeping ideas inside the box, you should see some of my strategies for defending my lvl 5 missions in lowsec in a few months. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:14:00 - [122] im sorry but you people are really not getting this THERE ARE NO SAFE SPACE JUST SAFER. No you shouldnt be SAFE in high sec if i want to suicide you then that's my choice i pay for it with both sec hit and ship cost. No should not be able to fit any modules to a freighter if that would be the case i want CCP to cut it's HP by 2/3 due to the fact it's a transport vessel not a combat vessel. And you do have your right to play the game but YOU just dont want to follow the rules stated by CCP.
Venix An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:18:00 - [123] Edited by: Venix on 28/03/2007 17:17:53 Ok, i only read the first post, and this may have been said in the others. EvE is very much so like real life in the way things happen. Name a place on earth that is totally safe where nothing ever goes wrong, no body dies, and nothing ever gets stolen......you cant. It does not matter if space is 0.0 or 1.0, you should be able to get ganked. 1.0-0.5 has CONCORD which do their job to kill whom ever kills you, but as we have seen before, not even a freighter can be 100% safe in highsec vs a gang large enough. Much like how in RL a Police officer isnt 100% safe, its all about someone willing to take the risk and hope they dont get caught or if they do that its not a bad punishment. I dont agree with stealig and robbing ect ect in RL, but here in EvE, its only a game, and im all for it. Ni4Ni
Turas Kain Minmatar Dark Moon Industries	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:24:00 - [124] Suiciding a freighter is without risk? Whatever you've been drinking I want some! For one thing if you don't manage to pop the freighter you've just lost approx 20 BS not to mentioned wasted all the time spent planning and organising. Lets say 30 mil loss per BS and your 600mil down. Mistakes happen, its already happened before. Taking around 25 pilots (including hauler alts and a scout or 2) to down your ship in hi sec hardly qualifies as an easy task. You're going to have to make it very worthwhile in your little freighter. The aggressors are depending on a good chunk of the freighters loot surviving the explosion. Now if your going to fill it with 15bil+ worth of lots of different items then your just asking for trouble. If you think you should be able to move around such massive amounts of ISK completely risk free in empire then your thoughts differ from mine, and presumably from the Dev's given the current situation. There is no rule which insists your freighter has to be full every time, if you have so much valuable cargo then you can spare the time to transport it in seperate loads or run the risk of being ganked. Exact same rules apply to all hauling. As far as I can remember the market existed before freighters and seemed to work fine for traders & industrial corps. You've simply becomes too used to how much easier it was with freighters recently. The fact freighters did not drop loot, was not working as intended. As demonstrated by the fact it was tried to be fixed before but got delayed. Maybe I should have petitioned every freighter I popped because I got no loot so the pilot was presumably metagaming? In terms of defense a shuttle has no defensive capability so perhaps they should not drop loot? In realistic terms if a hauler is ganked by 5 battleships it has no defensive capability. Maybe it should be extended so if your ganked at all you do not drop loot.
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:28:00 - [125] Edited by: Aindrias on 28/03/2007 17:28:46 Edited by: Aindrias on 28/03/2007 17:26:10 Originally by: Venix Ok, i only read the first post, and this may have been said in the others. EvE is very much so like real life in the way things happen. Name a place on earth that is totally safe where nothing ever goes wrong, no body dies, and nothing ever gets stolen......you cant. It does not matter if space is 0.0 or 1.0, you should be able to get ganked. 1.0-0.5 has CONCORD which do their job to kill whom ever kills you, but as we have seen before, not even a freighter can be 100% safe in highsec vs a gang large enough. Much like how in RL a Piloce officer isnt 100% safe, its all about someone willing to take the risk and hope they dont get caught or if they do that its not a bad punishment. I dont agree with stealig and robbing ect ect in RL, but here in EvE its only a game and im all for it. Yeah, A Criminal could blow up the car of a person in front a police officer and then summarily get shot by said police officer. That's fine, I don't think anyone here has said otherwise. But can random guy walk up to the crime seen and steal the stereo and other stuff from the car of the victim with the Police officer saying.... "Don't do that... I said don't do that... damn, you did that, now I have to write a report and lower your standing.. but if you go kill some other bad guys we'll forget all about it" the officer then turns to the now re-cloned Criminal.. "By the way, submit a report to the police and insurance so you can get your gun back, without the bullets of course" Um.. this is exactly what's happening.. Sure you can try and do nearly anything, the freighter will die... you are not safe.. fine... but why should you uber profit from it and not incur any risk in the process? THat is not "like the real world" in anyway.. I wish it was though. Aind
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:39:00 - [126] When you consider that Concord as a police force never does anything about theft by capsuleers, the fact that they don't care if you loot the wreck isn't all that surprising. Capsuleers are a force unto themselves, and the government has decided to pick it's battles and for the most part leaves policing of crimes like theft up the pod pilots themselves. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 17:55:00 - [127] Originally by: Avon your solo gameplay has to be compromised to counter organised groups is, frankly, whinging. Organized? Sort of. Organized but taking advantage of loopholes in the game structure. Noob corp alt suicide ganks are (sorta cowardly and) abusive of game mechanics. However, even if suicide gank squads were people using their corp'ed mains I would still question CONCORD policy and implementation, insurance payouts to police victims and the inability to actually protect a freighter. I don't see why every difference of opinion on game balance has to devolve into accusations of whinging and everyone whipping out their ruler for a quick manliness-measuring.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:30:00 - [128] Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Originally by: Avon your solo gameplay has to be compromised to counter organised groups is, frankly, whinging. Organized? Sort of. Organized but taking advantage of loopholes in the game structure. Noob corp alt suicide ganks are (sorta cowardly and) abusive of game mechanics. However, even if suicide gank squads were people using their corp'ed mains I would still question CONCORD policy and implementation, insurance payouts to police victims and the inability to actually protect a freighter. I don't see why every difference of opinion on game balance has to devolve into accusations of whinging and everyone whipping out their ruler for a quick manliness-measuring. This is an attempt for some, currently unidentified, ironic posting prize, non? Noob gankers? Ohnoes. Because we all know that freighters are flown by pilots in war-dec'able player corps, right? Concord don't deal with theft. Not their job. Never has been. Never should be. Want your stuff? Look after it. Insurance? Smokescreen. We are talking about freighters carrying billions, not some borderline profitable industrial. If the insurance being paid to "gankers" is such an unfair safety net, why not just go gank the gankers first? You'll lose your ship, but hey, the insurance will pay you too. Those gamemechanics swing both ways, y'know? All this boils down to is that some people think that they deserve protection not offered to other players. They don't want things to be fair, as they claim, they want them to be biased in their favour. Why? Because they are the living definition of the word "carebear". The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:39:00 - [129] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Originally by: Avon your solo gameplay has to be compromised to counter organised groups is, frankly, whinging. Organized? Sort of. Organized but taking advantage of loopholes in the game structure. Noob corp alt suicide ganks are (sorta cowardly and) abusive of game mechanics. However, even if suicide gank squads were people using their corp'ed mains I would still question CONCORD policy and implementation, insurance payouts to police victims and the inability to actually protect a freighter. I don't see why every difference of opinion on game balance has to devolve into accusations of whinging and everyone whipping out their ruler for a quick manliness-measuring. This is an attempt for some, currently unidentified, ironic posting prize, non? Noob gankers? Ohnoes. Because we all know that freighters are flown by pilots in war-dec'able player corps, right? Concord don't deal with theft. Not their job. Never has been. Never should be. Want your stuff? Look after it. Insurance? Smokescreen. We are talking about freighters carrying billions, not some borderline profitable industrial. If the insurance being paid to "gankers" is such an unfair safety net, why not just go gank the gankers first? You'll lose your ship, but hey, the insurance will pay you too. Those gamemechanics swing both ways, y'know? All this boils down to is that some people think that they deserve protection not offered to other players. They don't want things to be fair, as they claim, they want them to be biased in their favour. Why? Because they are the living definition of the word "carebear". Oh.. I guess this CCP Description of CONCORD is wrong then... CONCORD Assembly CONCORD is an independent organization founded a century ago to facilitate negotiations between the races to improve relations, as well as to foster inter-stellar trade through policing and regulations. Starting as a fledgling meeting ground for diplomats CONCORD has in the decades since it was founded slowly increased its power and influence. It has become an entity independent of the races, as it is able to largely fund its own operation through customs, confiscation of contraband goods, and other means. Corporations in CONCORD Assembly >> Aind
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:54:00 - [130] Originally by: Avon Because we all know that freighters are flown by pilots in war-dec'able player corps, right? Mine is. If someone else's is not, then that's another problem, not a justification for this one. I do, in fact, think that noob corp alts are a problem in general, but one that I don't have any easy solutions for. One thing at a time. Originally by: Avon Concord don't deal with theft. Not their job. Never has been. Never should be. Want your stuff? Look after it. I'm not asking Concord to prevent theft. I'm asking that if Concord won't let me shoot you, they won't let you shoot me. Simple really. Getting around that by outside-the-game actions such as noob alts seems like pure and simple exploiting to me, cheating. CCP has made set things up so that you must volunteer to be held accountable for your game actions. Most of us do, most of the time. It's the others that are presenting a problem here. Originally by: Avon If the insurance being paid to "gankers" is such an unfair safety net, why not just go gank the gankers first? You'll lose your ship, but hey, the insurance will pay you too. Those gamemechanics swing both ways, y'know? Gank them first? How exactly? Suicide gank everyone I see in a noob corp because they might be about to gank me or someone else? Seems like a low signal to noise ratio solution. The game mechanics do not swing both ways. They do in low sec and 0.0. I am not opposed to war, pirates, PvP of whatever flavour. What I am opposed to is "laws" and "police" that take away my ability to protect myself without taking over that responsibility. Don't take away my guns and tie my hands behind my back unless you darn well guarantee to protect me. Originally by: Avon All this boils down to is that some people think that they deserve protection not offered to other players. They don't want things to be fair, as they claim, they want them to be biased in their favour. I'm not asking for special treatment, and neither is anyone else that I can see. We're asking that the rules be re-examined to better reflect new developments. I'm not threatening to quit or demanding everyone who disagrees with me be instapermabanned, I'm just saying...

Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 18:54:00 - [131] Quote: Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Adrian Kerensky Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:00:00 - [132] "safer space" Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes - Devil 258 bytes over!
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:04:00 - [133] Edited by: Avon on 28/03/2007 19:00:23 Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Originally by: Avon Because we all know that freighters are flown by pilots in war-dec'able player corps, right? Mine is. If someone else's is not, then that's another problem, not a justification for this one. I do, in fact, think that noob corp alts are a problem in general, but one that I don't have any easy solutions for. One thing at a time. Originally by: Avon Concord don't deal with theft. Not their job. Never has been. Never should be. Want your stuff? Look after it. I'm not asking Concord to prevent theft. I'm asking that if Concord won't let me shoot you, they won't let you shoot me. Simple really. Getting around that by outside-the-game actions such as noob alts seems like pure and simple exploiting to me, cheating. CCP has made set things up so that you must volunteer to be held accountable for your game actions. Most of us do, most of the time. It's the others that are presenting a problem here. Originally by: Avon If the insurance being paid to "gankers" is such an unfair safety net, why not just go gank the gankers first? You'll lose your ship, but hey, the insurance will pay you too. Those gamemechanics swing both ways, y'know? Gank them first? How exactly? Suicide gank everyone I see in a noob corp because they might be about to gank me or someone else? Seems like a low signal to noise ratio solution. The game mechanics do not swing both ways. They do in low sec and 0.0. I am not opposed to war, pirates, PvP of whatever flavour. What I am opposed to is "laws" and "police" that take away my ability to protect myself without taking over that responsibility. Don't take away my guns and tie my hands behind my back unless you darn well guarantee to protect me. Originally by: Avon All this boils down to is that some people think that they deserve protection not offered to other players. They don't want things to be fair, as they claim, they want them to be biased in their favour. I'm not asking for special treatment, and neither is anyone else that I can see. We're asking that the rules be re-examined to better reflect new developments. I'm not threatening to quit or demanding everyone who disagrees with me be instapermabanned, I'm just saying... Re-read your post. You have actually agreed that the game mechanics DO apply equally, whilst trying to argue that they do not. If you CHOOSE to ATTACK someone who is not at WAR with you, or CRIMINALLY FLAGGED, Concord wtfpwn you. That applies to you, and it applies to the "gankers". The important bit is the CHOICE. You choose not to, and think it is bad. They choose to, and they think they ARE bad. What you are asking for is that CCP change the game to reinforce what you see as valid gameplay, and prevent others from playing the role that you think is "unfair". Well, I've got news for you. Being a "bad guy" is just as valid as being a "good guy". Can you protect yourself? Yes. Do you choose to do so? No. Oh, btw, I figured out a way to protect a freighter from the current style of suicide attack using frigates. Not lots of them, one might do the job, four probably would, six definately would. Concord do the hard part, the rest is easy. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:17:00 - [134] Something needs to be fixed because the system is broken. there is no defense to suicide gankers in high sec, and that is why it is broken. I mean these guys are easy to spot but you can do nothing about them. The easiest fix imho, is loot rights, only the players who attacked the ship can loot it and only after 15 minutes if concord kills them. If you wanted to be hardcore concord could scoop the loot and hold it if you are killed in high sec.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:31:00 - [135] Originally by: Avon Can you protect yourself? Yes. Do you choose to do so? No. Can we protect ourselves? No, not really. Remote repping would be a joke and wholly ineffective. Scouting can be easily bypassed by the gankers. Can I be proactive and attack the waiting gankers first? Not really as CONCORD would nail me. Perhaps a smartbombing battleship would work but in order to defend the freighter that battleship will likely be lost and the pilot take a serious sec hit (as it will probably kill a few non-flagged people and pod them to boot). Want frieghters to drop loot fine. If someone wants to fly with billions alone and AFK they have what's coming to them. I think people are just asking for mechanisms that allow for proper guarding and not to reward those who "break the law" by handing them tens of millions for their actions. This in no way says one set of rules applies for one groups and another set for a different group. EVE has always been about risk v. reward and suicide ganking is utterly imbalanced in this. Provide tools for people to do exactly what you are suggesting to allow for a respectable chance at escorting their charges.
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:35:00 - [136] Originally by: Avon Well, I've got news for you. Being a "bad guy" is just as valid as being a "good guy". Then why are you complaining about us acting like good guys? Originally by: Avon Can you protect yourself? Yes. Do you choose to do so? No. Actually, I'm concerned about game balance, not my own ship/wallet. If I autopilot my freighter through Jita loaded with BPOs for T3 wtfpwnmobiles the way things are and I get ganked, then on my own head be it. This is not about me. It's about Eve. Same as you.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 19:51:00 - [137] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Something needs to be fixed because the system is broken. there is no defense to suicide gankers in high sec, and that is why it is broken. I mean these guys are easy to spot but you can do nothing about them. The easiest fix imho, is loot rights, only the players who attacked the ship can loot it and only after 15 minutes if concord kills them. If you wanted to be hardcore concord could scoop the loot and hold it if you are killed in high sec. I have already pointed out that you can use frigates to defend against this, so the no defence arguement is out of the window. If you can't figure it out (and it is painfully simple), then you can buy the info off me. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
pricecheck8	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:02:00 - [138] i would call this griefing. lets face it the freighter a- does not have slots to tank/defend and b- it moves/warps like a snail. if they are attacked lets face it by the time they try and warp somewhere as long as it takes not they will be dead before they even warp out and the pirate/attacker getting their insurance payout means -0- risk for them, and having to fly escorts for every freighter is just as bad if youre in empire/not in war with any1
Nomme Mu..	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:13:00 - [139] Rapier+Sensor boosters+Domination Web Problem solved.
Krugerrand 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:13:00 - [140] The large amount of effort it takes to organize a freighter hi-sec gank for the potential little reward means I do not see this becoming a big issue. You need a large gang equipped properly. You need intel on a target. That target must have a cargo in excess of 3b, expect a large amount to pop. You need the means to pickup potentially a lot of m3 before others scavenge the best stuff.

Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:16:00 - [141] Originally by: Avon I have already pointed out that you can use frigates to defend against this, so the no defence arguement is out of the window. If you can't figure it out (and it is painfully simple), then you can buy the info off me. I suspect you know your stuff and do indeed have some frig setup that you feel would suffice for freighter guarding. But unless you share this deep dark secret with the rest of us to discuss its viability as far as I am concerned it doesn't exist. Doubtless such knowledg would become common enough soon enough if it does exist. So, without trying to be snarky: Proof or STFU
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:19:00 - [142] Originally by: Nomme Rapier+Sensor boosters+Domination Web Problem solved. Don't think that would do it. Certainly speeds things up but chances are good the gankers bumpers would get into action before you could warp away and that's the end of that.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:42:00 - [143] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Avon I have already pointed out that you can use frigates to defend against this, so the no defence arguement is out of the window. If you can't figure it out (and it is painfully simple), then you can buy the info off me. I suspect you know your stuff and do indeed have some frig setup that you feel would suffice for freighter guarding. But unless you share this deep dark secret with the rest of us to discuss its viability as far as I am concerned it doesn't exist. Doubtless such knowledg would become common enough soon enough if it does exist. So, without trying to be snarky: Proof or STFU Make it worth my while and the info is yours. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Nomme Mu..	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:45:00 - [144] Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Nomme Rapier+Sensor boosters+Domination Web Problem solved. Don't think that would do it. Certainly speeds things up but chances are good the gankers bumpers would get into action before you could warp away and that's the end of that. Try it and see ;p
Sadayiel Caldari Black Lance NBSI Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.28 20:50:00 - [145] Missed most of the post but let Concord become effective finally. 1) Concordokken = you miss all ship insurance, sorry but it's the life. 2) High,punishment rates = seriously with the massive population and crime, concord can't bother in arrest evildoers, in fact they Shoot to kill!! (let them pod ppl) 3) Drugs and stealing = well allow concord to scan ships for stealing goods, if they find you decide to drop or to run, in same way as they do if you carry drugs. so most of ppl will consider if use that biggie inty, or dos everal atempts just my 3 cents Every man know he's going to die, but no one believes that's going to happen
Gjutet	Posted - 2007.03.28 21:41:00 - [146] There is nothing that is safe at all. Like i could take a gun go outside a police station. And use that gun a blow someones brain out. just because its "Safe zone" doesnt mean bad things can happen. Bad example but same thing.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:07:00 - [147] As usual, I feel torn about this. Suicide alting is cheap and lame, but its the only viable way to attack Empire n00b/alt farmers or macros. CCP made this Transport gank change out of the blue, and to my knowledge, with no explanation. Not that they need any, its obvious that their desire to increase PvP/Gank at any cost, in a number or ways, reigns supreme. The argument isnt about safety, btw, people could have killed Transports at any time in the past. Its about a new gankable,lucrative target.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.28 22:20:00 - [148] Originally by: Gjutet There is nothing that is safe at all. Like i could take a gun go outside a police station. And use that gun a blow someones brain out. just because its "Safe zone" doesnt mean bad things can happen. Bad example but same thing. Yeah but then the police do not let your friend come by and snag the wallet and watch of the person you shot nor does your insurance pay you after you crash your car trying to get away.
Shayla Sh'inlux The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.28 23:07:00 - [149] I havent actually seen organized gangs taking down freighter after freighter in hisec, so it seems a lot of speculation atm. It being possible (I know it can be done) does seem a little bit odd considering potential gain vs the certain loss. Btw Avon, you kinda blew up your own argument with the CCP quote; let me highlight it for you: Quote: Some players are willing to lose ships and their good standing with Concord for the hope of quick profit from a juicy loot drop. The ôkamikazeö attackers usually work in pairs or groups. They scan the cargo holds of bypassing pilots flying easily destructable ships until they see something worthy of a ship loss. They then blow up the ship and and while Concord do what they do best, a second character picks up the loot from the shipÆs wreck. This is not seen as an exploit of the intended game mechanics and there is no compensation or reimbursement to be had for losses caused by attacks in secure space. Since when are 183k hitpoint freighters classified as "easily destructable"? Discussing moderation is a no-no- Tirg
Xiator Z	Posted - 2007.03.29 00:00:00 - [150] Edited by: Xiator Z on 29/03/2007 00:03:17 /signed (because of freighter changes) Reasons: - Risk vs Reward screwed up The attackers risk aproximatly 600 mil worth of ships when insured. When moving house the freighter pilot risks the freighter, plus the cargo. The isks at stake for the freighter pilot exceed 600 mil by far in usual cases. Also, in case the freighter pilot wins (If friends helped, or the attackers miscalculated the attack) the freighter pilot survives but wins nothing (No, I do not count cheap t1 mods as winning anything). But if the attackers win, they gain everything the frieghter pilot had in cargo. If they scanned before, their possible win is vast. - Do not risk what you can not afford to lose rule. Most would agree on that rule of thumb. If you do, then using freighters to move house is now not a viable option anymore. Solution to suicide ganking in general: - Remove insurance payout on ships when they are used for acts in which Concord attacks them. SIMPLE. To anyone with itchy fingers to flame me now, PLEASE explain to me first why any insurance would or should pay if the ship was used for acts in which concord blows up the ship. IMHO this is bar any valid reasoning.

Kher'Aleer Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.03.29 02:05:00 - [151] Originally by: Mini Coupe I have no problem with suicide ganking in high-sec so much as with insurance payouts to suicide gankers. Why should people blown up committing a crime be rewarded with insurance payouts. If Concord blows up your ship there should be zero insurance payout. /signed Also there should be more ways to protect the freighter but to sit there doing nothing while someone shoots it to pieces. Like say, the ability to fit hull repair system and damage control (but not cargo expanders, yes I know).
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.29 02:05:00 - [152] To the people saying it shouldn't be safe anywhere to fly anywhere, I have to agree. It shouldn't. The changes made to freighters recently however are singularly unique compared to any other ship in the game. Because they have no slots for modules, killing one freighter pilot ungrouped can be calculated mathematically without regard to how skilled the pilot is. This would be like telling a dread pilot 'ok, you're going to do this amount of damage, going to have this amount of resists, and you're never ever going to be able to adjust that. If you don't like it, don't fly this ship." If freighters even had one low slot, this thread wouldn't exist. There had to be a motivation behind making them drop loot. They've being trying for a while now to implement this feature. What I see wrong with this is the fact that you're making a ship that has so many limitations (can't fit modules, very very slow, can't pick up cans, can't interface with POS (although that one might be fixed, haven't heard), can't drop cans in space) into a giant space carrot for any well organized pirate operation, without compensating the pilots for painting a huge red X on their collective asses. How about some counterbalance here, eh? Give some love to the driver, not just the horse so to speak. Give them some slots and/or ability to drop stuff in space and/or POS functionality. Or something.
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.03.29 02:24:00 - [153] I like suicide ganking. I dont do it, but it's a very realistic game dynamic. Think of it as high-sec terrorism. Someone suicide ganks, they die, simple. Meanwhile someone (an alt somewhere nearby) benefits in some way. People confuse high sec as being safe. It's not. period. If you're in a noobcorp, you cant be wardecced so thats protection. As a noob, that protects you when you dont understand the game, and more importantly, when you dont have anything of worth. When you start to become a target, through one mechanism or another, you have to learn how to protect your assets.
Ryoma Sakamoto	Posted - 2007.03.29 03:54:00 - [154] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I like suicide ganking. I dont do it, but it's a very realistic game dynamic. Think of it as high-sec terrorism. Someone suicide ganks, they die, simple. Meanwhile someone (an alt somewhere nearby) benefits in some way. I agree to the analogy here. The problem is, the suicide gankers, who are Eve equivalent of Al-Qaeda, don't face the risks commensurate with their acts. As you all know, Al-Qaeda became international outlaw after 9/11. So, a suicide gankers should: a) Become -10 sec rating immediately. b) Have ALL his insurance annulled without refund (All insurers are exempt from honoring any insurance policy by a suicide bomber IRL). c) A corp has 24 hours to expel the suicide ganker or have itself and all its members be declared -10 (outlaws). With the character delete time limits, this will restrict any account to 2 suicide ganks per week, so the ganker's earnings per hour will take a severe hit.
zoltar	Posted - 2007.03.29 03:57:00 - [155] /signed
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.03.29 04:02:00 - [156] Originally by: Ryoma Sakamoto Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I like suicide ganking. I dont do it, but it's a very realistic game dynamic. Think of it as high-sec terrorism. Someone suicide ganks, they die, simple. Meanwhile someone (an alt somewhere nearby) benefits in some way. I agree to the analogy here. The problem is, the suicide gankers, who are Eve equivalent of Al-Qaeda, don't face the risks commensurate with their acts. As you all know, Al-Qaeda became international outlaw after 9/11. So, a suicide gankers should: a) Become -10 sec rating immediately. b) Have ALL his insurance annulled without refund (All insurers are exempt from honoring any insurance policy by a suicide bomber IRL). c) A corp has 24 hours to expel the suicide ganker or have itself and all its members be declared -10 (outlaws). With the character delete time limits, this will restrict any account to 2 suicide ganks per week, so the ganker's earnings per hour will take a severe hit. So joe newbie, who accidentally attacks someone he's befriended early, is suddenly restricted to 0.4 or less which are dangerous, non-newbie areas? then has to wait 9 hours before trying again
Voin	Posted - 2007.03.29 04:05:00 - [157] Well, 6 pages and no one answer from oficial face... I'm not pilot of freighter, but I understood a problem... Let me think about this situation... Are CONCORD by paying insurance to crime (suicide pilot's) corrupted? - 100 % Do CCP know that, CONCORD corrupted? - 100% Do CCP know, what happened with hundred's chinese in China every year, when police got them for corrupt things? I wont scare you guys and I don't know law of China, do you?
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.29 05:09:00 - [158] Edited by: Raivi on 29/03/2007 05:05:59 Originally by: Ryoma Sakamoto I agree to the analogy here. The problem is, the suicide gankers, who are Eve equivalent of Al-Qaeda, don't face the risks commensurate with their acts. As you all know, Al-Qaeda became international outlaw after 9/11. So, a suicide gankers should: a) Become -10 sec rating immediately. b) Have ALL his insurance annulled without refund (All insurers are exempt from honoring any insurance policy by a suicide bomber IRL). c) A corp has 24 hours to expel the suicide ganker or have itself and all its members be declared -10 (outlaws). With the character delete time limits, this will restrict any account to 2 suicide ganks per week, so the ganker's earnings per hour will take a severe hit. I can't resist. Your real life analogy works to a point, but if we wanted to be more accurate it would work like this: a)You suicide gank something b)Concord attacks you, your corp and any corp you've ever been in. c)Concord then quickly gives up and starts ignoring you, allowing you to suicide gank to your heart's content. d)Meanwhile Concord picks a random corporation, declares that they are connected to you and that they have hidden titans, and wipes them off the map. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Sem Antix	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:11:00 - [159] Stupid questions.... is it possible to remote armor rep/shield boost etc on freighters? (If gankers have to take out a repair squad and repair drones first, it gives Concord more time to clear them - and increases Freighter surviveability) has anyone considered the insurance of cargo? are ccp still considering NPC freight services? how about a freighter only option to destroy cargo when it becomes evident they are going down? (Obviously the destroy option couldn't happen if there is cargo insurance.) I don't think Freighters should be invulnerable - just considering ways that might make the gankers think twice or adapt.
Kylar Renpurs	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:15:00 - [160] Not sure if it's fixed, but apparently that was considered an act of aggression and you'd be concorded

Sverre Haakonson	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:28:00 - [161] /signed Reason: Suicide ganking has to less risks. Corp SECUWAY Alliance SECUWAY
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:37:00 - [162] Originally by: Sem Antix Stupid questions.... is it possible to remote armor rep/shield boost etc on freighters? (If gankers have to take out a repair squad and repair drones first, it gives Concord more time to clear them - and increases Freighter surviveability) has anyone considered the insurance of cargo? are ccp still considering NPC freight services? how about a freighter only option to destroy cargo when it becomes evident they are going down? (Obviously the destroy option couldn't happen if there is cargo insurance.) I don't think Freighters should be invulnerable - just considering ways that might make the gankers think twice or adapt. It's completely possible to remote rep a freighter, but with the amount of DPS that's needed to kill one before Concord arrives, the remote reps won't really have a chance to do much. SO they can be a bit helpful, but there are better ways to escort a freighter. NPC freight services (within the constellation) is definitely coming, but it won't replace the need for player freighters to carry stuff outside the constellation. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Craminu Gallente Red Dwarf Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.03.29 06:49:00 - [163] Edited by: Craminu on 29/03/2007 06:50:35 i fly an freighter my self. i do like he change that freighter can drop cans. but we have no way of counter it once we get attacked. just sit and hope concord aids you fast. yes freighters arent suppose to be unbreakable. nothing are. just try to design some freighter modules like reppers or warp scramblers. have the warp speed increased etc. Or make it so you cant warp scramble an freighter except using spesial modules that can only fit in bigger ships, or warp bubbles and for the insurance payment of pirates. if you get concorded, you shouldent get insurance payed by them. hopefully ccp will read this long tread, and work on some changes :)
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:28:00 - [164] This whole thread is just so lame it's beyond comprehension. There is nothing wrong with suicide ganking in high sec. The reason people lose ships to suicide gankers is 100% due to the players being ganked themselves. They didn't use their brains and take the required precautions to insure their safety. Get a clue. One scout, a few BS for escort, and I really don't see any freighter being ganked in high sec. The problem here is that players want to fly along by themselves and don't want to have to do any teamwork or any preperation ahead of time in order to ensure a comfortable level of safety. So basically what you're telling me is that you're lazy and don't think you should have to work at anything to be successful. Because I said so...
Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:35:00 - [165] Ganking in any form is not true PvP. /signed. --- CCP : Save my mousewheel!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:51:00 - [166] Originally by: Ling Xiao Edited by: Ling Xiao on 27/03/2007 18:21:13 Hey, if pirate NPCs can infest high-sec for mission runners, then it's about time human players can get in on the action and defy CONCORD even if it's just for 10 seconds at a time Best idea yet IMO. Hi, we from your friendly insurance company have noted the destruction of your ship by Police Forces after comitting a criminal act. As found in our Service Terms, we can only offer you the basic payout due to this Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.03.29 07:56:00 - [167] give my freight 5/5/5 slots and i will be more happy with the change. No other ship (pod/shuttle are not ships) must be fly as it is all other ships can be configure so you have better chance to face the odds as it is i can either decide to drag 10+ BS whenever i undock or be at the mercy of others. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.29 08:01:00 - [168] Edited by: Raivi on 29/03/2007 07:57:25 Originally by: mr bighelmet give my freight 5/5/5 slots and i will be more happy with the change. No other ship (pod/shuttle are not ships) must be fly as it is all other ships can be configure so you have better chance to face the odds as it is i can either decide to drag 10+ BS whenever i undock or be at the mercy of others. Cut down a freighter cargo hold to the size of a transport or industrial and I'd be fine with it having a 5/5/5 slot layout. Freighters are intended to be giant hauling behemoths that need to be escorted. If they had defenses of their own than their ability to carry that much through highsec would be overpowered. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Anila's Delight	Posted - 2007.03.29 08:10:00 - [169] Originally by: Ki An but when people use THE SAME METHOD stealing loot from the Privateers, it's perfectly fine, and even funny. mmmm, Pithi X-type extra large shield booster Originally by: Altrex Conclusive proof ladies and gentlemen that WoW kills brain cells.
Rabb Darktide Independent Fleet O X I D E	Posted - 2007.03.29 09:31:00 - [170] Removing the insurance payouts and removing cargo scanners form game should solve this problem... Someone wants to suicide gank a freighter, they may find a ton or loot, or find, after losing a dozen battleships, that it was empty. ---- Rabb Darktide Fleet Admiral (CEO) / O X I D E High Council Independent Fleet [INDF] INDF Recruitment

Acarion Sphinx	Posted - 2007.03.29 09:39:00 - [171] No other ship but the freighter can be suicide ganked using less than half it's market value. You only need 400 million ISK to efficiently kill off a freighter worth 1 billion ISK. This is what needs to change.
Sverre Haakonson	Posted - 2007.03.29 09:42:00 - [172] The best protection against suicide ganking is a ReCon-ship with sensor dampeners or ECM fittet. You are able to blind more then 3 gankers at one time. But its relative expensive, while a ganker is flying a cheap ship. Make it more expensive! Corp SECUWAY Alliance SECUWAY
Corbeau Lenoir Caldari Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.29 10:20:00 - [173] Everything is fine as it is. Freighters shouldn't fly alone, even in highsec(is it so difficult to find scout in shuttle to accompany you?). If you do this - be prepared for the consequences aka suicide gank squads.
Sisco Deivas Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.03.29 11:38:00 - [174] Originally by: Tressia Edited by: Tressia on 27/03/2007 19:46:44 Theres a german word that may describe them, "Schadenfreude" meaning "pleasure taken from someone else's misfortune". It's all I can think judging by the actions and non-action of Devs with Eve. The basis of humour is that you laugh at someone elses misfortune.... funny that isn't it? :P
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.29 11:43:00 - [175] Originally by: Ryoma Sakamoto Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I like suicide ganking. I dont do it, but it's a very realistic game dynamic. Think of it as high-sec terrorism. Someone suicide ganks, they die, simple. Meanwhile someone (an alt somewhere nearby) benefits in some way. I agree to the analogy here. The problem is, the suicide gankers, who are Eve equivalent of Al-Qaeda, don't face the risks commensurate with their acts. As you all know, Al-Qaeda became international outlaw after 9/11. So, a suicide gankers should: a) Become -10 sec rating immediately. b) Have ALL his insurance annulled without refund (All insurers are exempt from honoring any insurance policy by a suicide bomber IRL). c) A corp has 24 hours to expel the suicide ganker or have itself and all its members be declared -10 (outlaws). With the character delete time limits, this will restrict any account to 2 suicide ganks per week, so the ganker's earnings per hour will take a severe hit. and so every one who accidentally incurs the wrath of concord (lots of players do this) gets effectively kicked from the game with a -10 sec rating and are also chucked out of their corp? oooookay. Personally I think simply nullifying insurance would cover this area. Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:10:00 - [176] Originally by: murder one This whole thread is just so lame it's beyond comprehension. There is nothing wrong with suicide ganking in high sec. The reason people lose ships to suicide gankers is 100% due to the players being ganked themselves. They didn't use their brains and take the required precautions to insure their safety. Get a clue. One scout, a few BS for escort, and I really don't see any freighter being ganked in high sec. The problem here is that players want to fly along by themselves and don't want to have to do any teamwork or any preperation ahead of time in order to ensure a comfortable level of safety. So basically what you're telling me is that you're lazy and don't think you should have to work at anything to be successful. Umm, the freighter dies in something like 15-20 seconds. What kind of escort do you suggest to reduce the gankers firepower sufficiently within that timespan to prevent the death of the freighter? Freighters have no defense. IMO they should change freighters to have 5 mid and 5 lowslots and enough cap/CPU and grid to fit capital reppers. If CCP makes freighters the biggest prize target in Eve, they deserve a chance to defend themselves. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Gorverius Lioncourt	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:13:00 - [177] Yes to suicide gankers!!!!!!!!!! People putting their hauler alts in npc corps to avoid getting ganked in war is lame, suicide ganking is the way to balance that exploit!
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:13:00 - [178] Originally by: Malachon Draco Umm, the freighter dies in something like 15-20 seconds. What kind of escort do you suggest to reduce the gankers firepower sufficiently within that timespan to prevent the death of the freighter? It's already been discussed in this thread, but for instance a smartbombing or ECM bursting ship that you have insured and don't mind losing to concord in the likely event that you hit a neutral. That should do the trick just fine. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
w0rmy Intensive CareBearz	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:14:00 - [179] Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? No it is not. Your signature is inappropriate. Please read the forum rules before reposting- Tirg
Dampfschlaghammer Minmatar Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:24:00 - [180] Edited by: Dampfschlaghammer on 29/03/2007 12:35:46 /not signed Risk vs Reward is not really violated, as suicide ganking of freighters requires much more effort than simply the gank itself. It requires carefully spying, coordination of dozens of battleships, sec status fixing and finally being lucky enough that the majority of the goods does not get destroyed. And an even more important point: if you notice that you are getting scouted, or if you have very valuable goods, you can often prevent the gank by having some logistics cruisers as backup boosting the freighter - unless facing really overwhelming forces. This means the gankers usually run the risk of losing lots of money without getting something, and with the enemy only dedicating a much smaller force to achieve this. You can also use a second freighter as escort that will immediately get all the loot from the wreck of the first one, further reducing losses. The only thing that changes is that hauling in empire is no longer an effortless, boring and 100% secure task, something that did not comply with EVE's philosophy in the first place. With warp to zero, freighters have received a huge logistical advantage. With suicide ganking, they now also have the trade off that comes with putting all your eggs in one basket. Sounds good to me.

Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:39:00 - [181] Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer You can also use a second freighter as escort that will immediately get all the loot from the wreck of the first one, further reducing losses. You mean that freighters can pickup stuff from wrecks? Of course the best defense is probably a second ship there with a fast lock to destroy the wreck as soon as the freighter dies, thus denying the loot to the attackers. -------------- In completely unrelated news, after careful research, the Guiding Hand Social Club concludes that no member of the Guiding Hand Social Club is guilty of corptheft.
Dampfschlaghammer Minmatar Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.03.29 12:42:00 - [182] Originally by: Malachon Draco Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer You can also use a second freighter as escort that will immediately get all the loot from the wreck of the first one, further reducing losses. You mean that freighters can pickup stuff from wrecks? Of course the best defense is probably a second ship there with a fast lock to destroy the wreck as soon as the freighter dies, thus denying the loot to the attackers. Ok forgot that. Destroying stuff is the only option then.
Pehova Mindtriq Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.03.29 13:00:00 - [183] Originally by: Creed Richards Yes, this is a PVP game, but is it PVP to greif people in a place where it's supposedly safe? Keep real PVP to low sec and 0.0. It's not safe in high sec and they never said it would be, it's just safer. And it's not griefing just because it is high sec. I think the system right now is good, it is possible to kill someone but you have to put alot of effort into it and risk losing alot. If you sit with 15 bs ready to gank a freighter you already guarateed the loss of those ships for the chance to maybe kill a freighter and maybe loot something from it. You also get the security hit so it's not like you can do it forever. Celes/Toxin vs BOB
heheheh Singularity.	Posted - 2007.03.29 13:16:00 - [184] Quote: I do not think that is a good way to play. nor me but each to his own, and also in case you havn't read it one thousand times before, HIGH SEC IS NOT SAFE, and nor should it be.
Random Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 13:17:00 - [185] /Signed ( use of alts to suicide gank should be called an exploit ) Use of character in a way not intended to bypass game mechanics or two things that should be introduced. 1) NO INSURANCE PAYMENTS to people who lose there ships in incidents where concord has engaged them. 2) Concord remote shield/armor hardning repping for illigally attacked ships. They are police after all ( Protect ? and serve )
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.29 13:20:00 - [186] Another vote for no insurance payouts when concorded.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.29 13:31:00 - [187] Originally by: Random Caldari /Signed ( use of alts to suicide gank should be called an exploit ) Use of character in a way not intended to bypass game mechanics By the same token, use of alts to fly the freighter should be called an exploit. Use of alts in any manner should be called an exploit. Thought much today? /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.29 14:27:00 - [188] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Random Caldari /Signed ( use of alts to suicide gank should be called an exploit ) Use of character in a way not intended to bypass game mechanics By the same token, use of alts to fly the freighter should be called an exploit. Use of alts in any manner should be called an exploit. Thought much today? /Ki Got to agree with you there... If the use of alts is bad, all use of alts is bad... same could be said for metagaming as a whole... if some is good, then all should be good... or not... I still think if you are killed by Concord your insurance should be voided... nothing to do with suicide ganking, just thinking how a real insurance works, if they can get out of paying off, you don't get a red cent. Noob in training...
Random Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 14:29:00 - [189] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Random Caldari /Signed ( use of alts to suicide gank should be called an exploit ) Use of character in a way not intended to bypass game mechanics By the same token, use of alts to fly the freighter should be called an exploit. Use of alts in any manner should be called an exploit. Thought much today? /Ki Explanation. Using a main to suicide results in a security hit. Enough security hits means the player no longer has access to Empire. Player has to go ratting etc. to raise there sec status if they want back into empire. Using an alt to suicide results in a security hit. Enough security hits means the player no longer has access to Empire. Alt gets deleted , New alt gets created with clean sec status. Player has bypassed security status flagging of character = Exploit. Its not the act of using a alt that makes it an exploit no. Only when the player is constantly deleting alts and creating new ones to continue a process of pirating in high sec without having to pay the price of a low sec status. Can you see the difference between this and flying a freighter on an alt ? or do you need to think a bit more first ?
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.29 14:33:00 - [190] Originally by: Dampfschlaghammer And an even more important point: if you notice that you are getting scouted, or if you have very valuable goods, you can often prevent the gank by having some logistics cruisers as backup boosting the freighter - unless facing really overwhelming forces. Notice you are getting scouted? Good luck. Passing around many systems there are people camped at the gates with sensor boosters running. They are all over and could be doing it for a variety of reasons. Which one is the one scanning me for a gank? If I docked everytime I saw that I truly would never get anywhere. Logistics ships won't save the freighter. The gankers pour vast amounts of DPS on the thing. It'd take a fleet of logistic ships to make a difference and even then I am not so sure. The only viable method I have seen so far for protection is a smartbombing battleship and chances are very good that the escort battleship will get CONCORDED and the pilot probably take a massive sec hit as he kills and pods who knows how many non-flagged ships. I was talking to people about ECM burst and the opinion is it won't help as drones re-acquire target locks very quickly. Others have mentioned helping the freighter to fast warp but even with that help I think it is overly generous to assume that will get the freighter to safety and then we have one person who suggested a frig could save the day but is not sharing so who knows?

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.29 14:52:00 - [191] Originally by: Random Caldari Explanation. Using a main to suicide results in a security hit. Enough security hits means the player no longer has access to Empire. Player has to go ratting etc. to raise there sec status if they want back into empire. Using an alt to suicide results in a security hit. Enough security hits means the player no longer has access to Empire. Alt gets deleted , New alt gets created with clean sec status. Player has bypassed security status flagging of character = Exploit. Its not the act of using a alt that makes it an exploit no. Only when the player is constantly deleting alts and creating new ones to continue a process of pirating in high sec without having to pay the price of a low sec status. If you had any proof that this is happening, all you have to do is petition it, as it is classed as a punishable offense. Using this as an argument is therefore moot. On the other hand, using a noob corp alt to fly a freighter for you SHOULD be classed as an exploit, as it prevents your enemies from stopping the freighter, thus circumventing a game mechanic. Also, if this was introduced, suicide ganking would drop to a new low, as there would be no need for it. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Xtro 2 Caldari Pre-nerfed Tactics	Posted - 2007.03.29 14:54:00 - [192] To the OP - Denied! Xtro 2 - Tactically Insane Tradesman. Insanity, or madness, is a semi-permanent, severe mental disorder.
Raivi Explosion Matrix	Posted - 2007.03.29 15:06:00 - [193] Edited by: Raivi on 29/03/2007 15:03:14 Recycling alts when their sec status gets too low is currently classed as an exploit and it petitionable, however it can be hard to tell from a player's point of view. If you're certain someone is recycling gank alts, then petition it and CCP can look at their character slot logs and confirm it. I'm apologize to anyone who's been reading this whole thread because I'm going to be repeating a few concepts here: As for smartbombs and ECM burst, yeah they are tricky, but they can help a lot. Smartbomb the drones, by staying as close as possible to the freighter and maybe using smaller medium smartbombs to minimize collateral. ECM burst the ganking ships, as drones instantly re-aquire. It requires a fairly fast ship, for obvious reasons. However if you can knock 5 or more enemy battleships out of the fight, they'll never get back in it (since they'll be jammed by concord by the time they can relock) and that will make a big difference in a suicide gank. Frigate + webber + creative use of bookmarks = near instant warp away from the gate, which makes you very very hard to suicide gank. I won't repeat that whole strategy here, if you want to know the details, read through the thread. The bottom line is that there are plenty of ways to defend your freighter with preparation and planning. I wouldn't mind a slight increase of HP for freighters, but it wouldn't be a good idea to kill off insurance for people who get concorded, if only because of all the people who get accidentally concorded. Explosion Matrix: Nostrum Nomen est Ridiculum
Brother Funkyshades	Posted - 2007.03.29 15:16:00 - [194] Edited by: Brother Funkyshades on 29/03/2007 15:16:09 Originally by: Creed Richards Keep real PVP to low sec and 0.0. dont regulate eve even more. let the players deal with it. its more fun this way. edit; and i think if you add some remote repping exequrors/ospreys in the equation(that would need to be killed first), the cost to suicide gank anything larger than a frigate climb exponentially, and soon it will be unpayable. you can even fit the webs on said cruisers for youknowwhat
Trubba Maykah	Posted - 2007.03.29 15:54:00 - [195] There is absolutely no reason to scout to find a freighter target. You only need to scout if you are looking for a specific freighter. Otherwise, you go to anyplace where trading happens and camp the gate. Bump and scan every freighter until you see one you like. Word will get around to some but not others and some will be AFK and miss the message anyway. A scan defense like ECM defense may be an appropriate balancing tool.
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.29 16:23:00 - [196] Originally by: Ki An On the other hand, using a noob corp alt to fly a freighter for you SHOULD be classed as an exploit, as it prevents your enemies from stopping the freighter, thus circumventing a game mechanic. Also, if this was introduced, suicide ganking would drop to a new low, as there would be no need for it. /Ki So the likes of Privateers who war dec the universe can bring a halt to all hauling? Good idea
Humpalot	Posted - 2007.03.29 16:29:00 - [197] Originally by: Raivi ECM burst the ganking ships, as drones instantly re-aquire. It requires a fairly fast ship, for obvious reasons. However if you can knock 5 or more enemy battleships out of the fight, they'll never get back in it (since they'll be jammed by concord by the time they can relock) and that will make a big difference in a suicide gank. Frigate + webber + creative use of bookmarks = near instant warp away from the gate, which makes you very very hard to suicide gank. ECM burst has a range of what...5km? With 20 enemies spread all over you are not going to get many unlocked and their drones continue the damage despite losing the lock. Maybe a Scorp with bonuses to get that range up but still...probably not going to do much as the drones keep going. As for the webbing frig you are back into having me bookmark the Universe so I can deal with a gank wherever it may be. I'll do it but frankly sucks to contemplate (not to mention I doubt CCP would be thrilled at the return of so many BMs and the server load they cause).
Random Caldari	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:10:00 - [198] Originally by: Ki An If you had any proof that this is happening, all you have to do is petition it, as it is classed as a punishable offense. Using this as an argument is therefore moot. On the other hand, using a noob corp alt to fly a freighter for you SHOULD be classed as an exploit, as it prevents your enemies from stopping the freighter, thus circumventing a game mechanic. Also, if this was introduced, suicide ganking would drop to a new low, as there would be no need for it. /Ki Anything you can do legitemattely with a main you can do legitemattely with an alt. ccp does not recognise the difference between main and alt players those are just terms we use. A corp can legitimattely use a third party to transport there goods if they wish, whether this is another non corp player or an alt is completelly irrelevant. Declaring war against a corp gives you the right to shoot at there ships when located , it does not give you the right to shoot at any player who does business with that corp and may or may not be carrying goods belonging to them. The post I made originally that you attempted to flame was calling for the use of disposable gank alts to be called an exploit. ( apologies if I did not make it clear what I was refering to ). No player can ever provide proof that this is going on, to do so you would need to obtain the opposing players I.P. address, a banable offense to even try , so your arguement that we should petition it is rather moot. What ccp should do is look for and suspend/ban them. or better still What should happen is that toons should get flagged in the db if they commit agression in high sec. These toons should be non-deletable/non-transferable until they have worked up to a positive sec status. Maybe allow once per year per account to allow for mistakes. This wont affect genuine pirate players as the owner wont want to delete the char anyway.
Melisa Zeal	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:18:00 - [199] This sounds like somone owned you and now your whining about it :/
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.29 18:46:00 - [200] Originally by: Random Caldari stuff Sigh... My point was that there is no way to "legitimately" take down a freighter in high sec. Why? Because they're all run by NPC corp members. Thus, we have to resort to suicide ganking. Now you want to take that away. My point it, if suicide ganking is made impossible/unviable, then we need to get rid of the ability for freighter pilots to stay in NPC corps. Otherwise freighters might as well be immune to damage in high sec. About the proof part, my point is that it is ALREADY an exploit to do as you described. Recycled alts with negative sec rating is a no-no, so there's no point whining for it. It's already there. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!

Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:08:00 - [201] Originally by: Ki An My point was that there is no way to "legitimately" take down a freighter in high sec. Why? Because they're all run by NPC corp members. Thus, we have to resort to suicide ganking. That's simply untrue. Although, if you can somehow guarantee that this "tactic" will only be used against noob-corp piloted freighters, I would withdraw much of my objection. (But, of course, you can't.) As it stands, this way leads to all future moves being done by the forthcoming NPC freighting. So congrats, we'll have completely killed player freighting in Empire. How does that do anyone any good? Originally by: Ki An Recycled alts with negative sec rating is a no-no, so there's no point whining for it. It's already there. How exactly can someone else tell if you are recycling alts?
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:18:00 - [202] Originally by: Sile Suirghiche Although, if you can somehow guarantee that this "tactic" will only be used against noob-corp piloted freighters, I would withdraw much of my objection. (But, of course, you can't.) As it stands, this way leads to all future moves being done by the forthcoming NPC freighting. So congrats, we'll have completely killed player freighting in Empire. How does that do anyone any good? No, of course I can't guarantee it, but I can use common sense and say that suiciding a player corps freighter is pretty stupid, and that I would never do it. Why? Why spend 600 million in destroyed ships when you can spend 2 million and declare war, and then kill em all with impunity? On the other hand, I'd partake in suiciding of NPC corp freighters any day, if only to ** the pilot off. Originally by:** Sile Suirghiche How exactly can someone else tell if you are recycling alts? I dunno. It's CCP's rules, and I suppose they are able to enforce them. Otherwise it would be legal, as it is with loggofski. /Ki Remember, kids: Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
The Slayer Caldari The Black Rabbits Fatal Persuasion	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:18:00 - [203] If you have two buddies go with you - one to scout, one to web the freighter so it enters warp quicker - then you are gonna be fine 99% of the time anyway!
Sile Suirghiche Gaidhlig Technology	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:23:00 - [204] Originally by: Ki An Why spend 600 million in destroyed ships when you can spend 2 million and declare war, and then kill em all with impunity? Because this is a target of opportunity thing. Sit at the gate, scan the freighters. When one is fat with loot, gank it. OTOH, wardec someone and see how likely they are to trundle valuable cargo around in a freighter...
Aindrias Amarr Fomus-Amarr Industrial Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2007.03.29 19:39:00 - [205] Quote: No, of course I can't guarantee it, but I can use common sense and say that suiciding a player corps freighter is pretty stupid, and that I would never do it. Why? Why spend 600 million in destroyed ships when you can spend 2 million and declare war, and then kill em all with impunity? One word INSURANCE Two diff mindsets are forming. 1. Those that want to work within what is considered a "normal" set of rules, common sensical. 2. People that say "If I can do it and get away with it, then it's not against the rules" Freighters can be killed in high-sec, I don't think... for like the 10th time... anyone is arguing about that. You could probably hire a corp to loot it. Ok.. fine. But using expendable alts of the same people that did the ganking is where the line should be drawn. Also minimizing risk by basically paying the gankers insurance for PURPOSELY getting CONCORD'd is an EXPLOIT. I don't know any other word to describe it. It's not an ADAPT or DIE situation. Man, you could fit RAT LOOT onto your BS's and do the job, so basically you're doing this for nearly nothing even if you don't get any loot from the Freighter. The "oh no, the police will stop me if I atl/exploit/gank a Freighter" arguement is every bit the whining and lamer-tude as anyone else. Aind
Awox Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.29 20:53:00 - [206] Originally by: Tunajuice Another vote for no insurance payouts when concorded. This is reasonable! - BOOST OUTLAWS (-10.0 and proud of it)
chazthegreat	Posted - 2007.03.29 21:03:00 - [207] ok i got the idea guys , i'll hust charge to my customers...( the gankers ) more for my goods yeah thats the ticket.... to all who do this go to a lower sector where you can get ganked has well you shut down haulers you shut down the game... and you will have to build all your stuff yourselves . at least let the " carebears" shoot back ... i fear that the gankers will stop if you do
Hakar Kerarmor Gallente Arctic Productions	Posted - 2007.03.30 05:27:00 - [208] Why not fly around with another 10 identical freighters? Then laugh as the gankers try to figure out which one has the loot in it.
WarMongeer	Posted - 2007.03.31 02:07:00 - [209] Originally by: Tunajuice Another vote for no insurance payouts when concorded. I'd vote for that as well, either that or give those freighters a lowslot.
Mogrin	Posted - 2007.03.31 03:44:00 - [210] How about a huge device in each high security system that instantly scrambles the atoms of an offender? (BOOM HEADSHOT) _______________ Rokh vs. Hyperion

Kritinana	Posted - 2007.03.31 04:18:00 - [211] Having seen many a threads about this, i didn't have mind to read every single post up to here as i'm sure i've already read these same comments many times elswhere. So if someones already said this, my apologies to you. Imho the only thing that should be changed about this is insurance payouts being null and void in the event of concordokken. It not only doesn't make any sense as it is, and also provides an imbalanced method of income in regard to the risk/reward way of things. That said, nothing else regarding this issue should be changed. If someone has the forsight to put together a viable group, and actually use cargo scanners to weigh the gank value / uninsured ship losses in a manner that is actually profitable in the long run........good for them. If you're flying 50mil worth of stuff into jita in a t1 w/ 5 locals, you're asking for trouble, and it should be that way. But the kamikazi boys should have to scan and think about their gain/loss ratio. As it is they can be indiscriminate and turn an overall profit regardless. In summation, high sec is not idiot (stuff pinata t1 haulers) proof, and shouldn't be. However, nor should there be a 0 risk means of turning profit. By no means should suicide ganking be made imposible though. In terms of the avid miner, it is the only means of combating stubborn macro miners/isk farmers. The stubborn iskers can defend easily enough against ore theft via actually using secures (which i have seen them do), and kamikaze style is the only available means of shouting loud and clear to them, "get the **** out of my system, and stay out". Even considering a lack of insurance pay out, to someone who actually mines a particular system, it is worth the loss in the long run. If the ability to do this was removed, the farmers would be able to operate with impunity, and we all know how much good it does to petition (null). my 2isk, carry on....
Krytie	Posted - 2007.05.13 00:13:00 - [212] Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 00:12:19 I think the insurance being voided should be a penalty as well. But, not just because of freighters and gang ganking. But, this is due to a more realistic scenario if someone gets into a fight with the police, then illegal action should avoid the insurance, just like if you let a friend fly the ship and it gets blown up, your insurance is revoked. Now, the only in-game mechanics is that if more than 1 person hits, they should all get attacked, maybe with more police coming after them or the police breaking up a bit and attacking. But, then again, this is police tactics, so even keeping it the same way as it is now is fine with me. I fly a freighter and you are basically a sitting duck in the thing, but I do believe that safe space should not be 100% safe. I think the gang tactics are realistic in a way. But....... I do feel that the freighter should have some form of protection. In my idea.... a drone bay would be a great addition. It would not allow someone to make a nano freighter, but it also will allow the freighter to defend itself, protect itself, and at least use repair drones to defray the HUGE costs of repairing that monsters armor. I would say, give give about 1K m3 of space for the drones. The pilot could only launch 5 at a time and the fighter drones would be too big to fit. In order to implement this, maybe make a rig slot for a freighter drone bay expander. Lose 10% cargohold, but gain 1000 m3 of drone bay. Make it the only rig that could fit. Also, give this rig a HUGE CPU usage and a special bonus for a freighter of 99% reduction in CPU Usage and PowerGrid usage per level. Thus, another ship could not add it.... similar to the covert ops cloaking device. I personally would not mind losing 75K of space if I could at least defend myself and repair a bit.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 01:57:00 - [213] Originally by: Krytie Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 00:12:19 I think the insurance being voided should be a penalty as well. But, not just because of freighters and gang ganking. But, this is due to a more realistic scenario if someone gets into a fight with the police, then illegal action should avoid the insurance, just like if you let a friend fly the ship and it gets blown up, your insurance is revoked. Now, the only in-game mechanics is that if more than 1 person hits, they should all get attacked, maybe with more police coming after them or the police breaking up a bit and attacking. But, then again, this is police tactics, so even keeping it the same way as it is now is fine with me. I fly a freighter and you are basically a sitting duck in the thing, but I do believe that safe space should not be 100% safe. I think the gang tactics are realistic in a way. But....... I do feel that the freighter should have some form of protection. In my idea.... a drone bay would be a great addition. It would not allow someone to make a nano freighter, but it also will allow the freighter to defend itself, protect itself, and at least use repair drones to defray the HUGE costs of repairing that monsters armor. I would say, give give about 1K m3 of space for the drones. The pilot could only launch 5 at a time and the fighter drones would be too big to fit. In order to implement this, maybe make a rig slot for a freighter drone bay expander. Lose 10% cargohold, but gain 1000 m3 of drone bay. Make it the only rig that could fit. Also, give this rig a HUGE CPU usage and a special bonus for a freighter of 99% reduction in CPU Usage and PowerGrid usage per level. Thus, another ship could not add it.... similar to the covert ops cloaking device. I personally would not mind losing 75K of space if I could at least defend myself and repair a bit. It raiseth the dead. SKUNK
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:07:00 - [214] What imbecile loads billions in goods into a freighter and runs afk? I am a noob with assets less than your pocket change and I donÆt even use autopilot to carry anything anywhere at all. I warp to 0 every time I go anywhere, especially distant runs like Jita and I watch every thing that gets remotely near me. You would have us believe that freighter pilots are running billions in cargo while afk? I donÆt buy that for an instant.. That is not credible at all.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:14:00 - [215] Edited by: Larg Kellein on 13/05/2007 02:16:40 Major problem with the OP: Your premise that those who wish to be safe have the right to. This is EVE, nowhere is safe. This is by design, even the tutorial says this. Edit: Eeeehm, not really adding much, hadn't noticed the whole "this thread is 8 pages long" thing before I replied... Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:34:00 - [216] Edited by: Nim9i5 on 13/05/2007 02:37:36 ccp constantly changing game rules Empire ganking is so EASYYYYY!!! What does it take 20 domis? with the prices these days after insurance that is like 10 mil from each person involved, or 200 mil in total. SO 200 mil for upwards of 1 bill to god knows how much, big risk, big risk. Not really.
Krytie	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:38:00 - [217] Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 02:37:17 Well, yes, the freighter is used for moving large amounts of stuff around... I move things up to 750K m3 in it.So, yes, moving 750K of the rarer minerals or moving corporations around require many many jumps or 1 jump in a freighter. Now, I do not take tech II blueprints in the freighter, but, in a cloaked covert ops ship to avoid. So, billion and billions , no... but 100s of millions of ISKs worth of stuff is easy. But, I do always take a small escort if moving stuff even in high sec. I personally would like to have some type of protection for myself. It would be a little more interesting than watching myself slowly die... ha ha ha ha
POTUS Pimpology Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:49:00 - [218] I'll say this again. If you are going to make a freighter drop it's loot like every other ship in the game, let them equip their ship like every other ship in the game. Before you start to flame me about shuttles, shut up you noob.
Xelios Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:58:00 - [219] Originally by: Nim9i5 Edited by: Nim9i5 on 13/05/2007 02:37:36 ccp constantly changing game rules Empire ganking is so EASYYYYY!!! What does it take 20 domis? with the prices these days after insurance that is like 10 mil from each person involved, or 200 mil in total. SO 200 mil for upwards of 1 bill to god knows how much, big risk, big risk. Not really. Actually it's about 40 mil per person. Insurance, drones and fittings aren't free.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.05.13 03:36:00 - [220] Holy Necro, Batman! How about if there's more than 5 aggressors a Concord Titan spawns and DD's the grid, just for comedy value? I'm sure that wouldn't be exploitable in any way at all.

Sandslinger	Posted - 2007.05.13 03:53:00 - [221] The last thread i saw about a freighter getting ganked it was 15 Domi's it took 36 seconds to pop, i'e before concord even showed up. So all that would be needed is 15 Domi's and 15 Ogre's II's. For the people that are saying about freighters goign AFK or whatever. Here's a few points about freighters Nr1. Going 10 Jumps even with warp to 0 can be 30 minutes + of work(freighters gets bumped easily). Going into Jita 4/4 means 15-20 minutes getting out(freighters take a LONG time to align and to get far away enough from station to turn round) Nr2 With a Domi gang as described earlier you would need a SERIOUS repper gang to even think about it being possible counteracting it. Someone made a point about anybody managing to scramble a 15-20 man BS gang to take out a freighter deserves the chance for the amount of work put in. That begs the question what profit/value does a freighter pilots business deserve for managing to move about with a major blob of repper ships NON-STOP or making huge detours to avoid potential empire camps(see point Nr1) Nr3 Someone made the point that all you need is a huggin webbing the freighter so it can insta warp and how easy it is to avoid systems with a obvious 15 man blob on the gate. this person has obviously never flown a freighter or passed through empire very much to see how many gates actually have 15 man blobs that re totally unrelated to you Firstly a freigther can take so damn long just to turn towards your new warp spot that a gang could sit outside scan range and hit the gate before it has aligned for "insta-web warp" And being empire it's not like you can use local to get any idea of wether any of the 100 guys in system are waiting to do just that. Of course you can make safespot bookmarks soutfacing so freighter can instawarp right out of cloak with no alignment needed, and then warp from there to the gate. great! it's not like freighter hauling even for short distances doesn't completely ruin a night of play already timewise due to the incredibly slow alignment times. A point that I find often happens in EVE, which is something as easily used for sheer griefing as this is fine as long as it isn't overdone(see casefile MoO or Privateers) Where CCP should be looking at the potential griefing potential they tend to ignore it in favour of the "actual" griefing taking place right at the very moment Someone else made a point about how we dont know if CCP's isnt looking into a way for freighter reliant businesses to protect their investment in freighters already. Common sense would dictate this would be implemented Before implemnting freighters dropping loot which they have been working hard on for a long time. As a corp we have moved about a lot, and everytime we move we have a freighter pilot that just loads up on our assets includiong player assets and takes it to a new empire drop off point where it meets 0.0/low-sec thus saving our corp members a LOT of time and hassle, (moving 200 ships 40 jumps is a LOT of time, more time then a lot of players would invest for the benefit of staying with the corp) Now the freighter pilot has stuck the freighter up for sale, there just isnt a point keeping anything that is that costly, and which can't be reliably defended against in empire. Hell attacking the attackers is even dodgy as reliably deducing who is and isnt attacking is hell in emp against droneusers and with 36 seconds to kill the attackers it's not like you can take your time to make clear deductions. We used to run a POS fueling servive, but with the current risks there is no way in hell we will re-invest in that venture which is a real shame as it really did bring the corp together last time we did it. Con'td
Sandslinger	Posted - 2007.05.13 04:04:00 - [222] Edited by: Sandslinger on 13/05/2007 04:10:55 From a RP perspective I've always thought the whole suicide thing is the messed up aspect of EVE, yeah it is a PVP game and there SHOULD be risk vs reward. Suiciding against targets in emp is NO risk vs reward when you can see your reward. The idea to me that Insurance pays out when you suicide in empire is just the most f'ked up thing, furthermore that a empire station that obviously wants to promote free trade would even consider honouring a clone agrement with someone who just suicided a trader that would potentially make their station worth keeping in trade tax is ridicolous. What do I recomend. Please Please Please get out there and start suiciding freighter pilots, nothing will be done to address this until large scale trade halts to a stop in empire. I'd love to see all the people that flamed the people asking for a adress to this issue when they realise how much low end mineral hauling production for even a single BS really requires. Or even the trade goods for running pos which so many corps now rely on fuel delivery businesses to supply suddenly dries up. Privateers I believe CCP killed your way of life just to give you another better opportunity to kill at will and make absolute billions in the process, maybe even enough to keep your wardecs going infinitily So get out there and start popping freighters by the hundreds !! You wont even need to wardec anyone to do it, wardeccing is so last year Just a sidenote about regular indy ganking, now this is a exploit, however one that is alsmot impossible to catch out. How to do it make a 2 day old alt flying a caracal get a few friends to do the same and start popping indies, when the sec status drops too low kill the char and reroll. The potential earning if you really keep at it should pay for the account just by itself. Maybe someone will even make a corp or alliance dedicated to just such chars, and maybe when it goes way to far CCP will actually look at the issue as a real problem that needs addressed. Disclaimer : I didnt get laid tonight and so had nothing better to do then write this, any typographical or grammatical errors are the direct result of sexual frustration
Jahah Smith Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.13 04:33:00 - [223] Edited by: Jahah Smith on 13/05/2007 04:32:15 Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Have someone in the same corp as the freighter web it into warp so they cannot get a lock on it, I have seen freighters warp in under 3 seconds using that method Link removed, lacks eve-related content. -Hango Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Xelios Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.13 05:19:00 - [224] Originally by: Jahah Smith Edited by: Jahah Smith on 13/05/2007 04:32:15 Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Have someone in the same corp as the freighter web it into warp so they cannot get a lock on it, I have seen freighters warp in under 3 seconds using that method QFT. Any time I've been involved in a freighter op there was always someone in an inty to web the freighter into warp. Time from decloak to warp was typically 3-4 seconds. That same inty can scout ahead 1 jump due to the difference in warp speeds. A gang of domis waiting at the gate is easily spotted, a gang waiting at a safe spot has no time to get to the gate and attack the freighter before it's in warp. All it takes is 1 inty.
Marden Grace Caldari Sentinels Of Justice Tactical Command	Posted - 2007.05.13 05:46:00 - [225] As much as I hate the idea of suicide ganking freighters (as it could end up being mine), a webber does reduce warp out time to a few seconds. Unless someone bumps it (indeed a possibility) then it shouldn't fall prey to a gank.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:03:00 - [226] Essentially there should be no insurance payout for criminals who lose their ship in a criminal act. On a side note encouraging suicide ganks is counter productive to the "Need For Speed" initiative by CCP. Blob warfare causes huge lag and 25 + BSs unloading on a Freighter + CONCORD + somewhat busy high sec system...Well it doesn't take much to imagine how far a plunge your frame rate will go.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:23:00 - [227] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 13/05/2007 06:22:07 didn't read all the pages but have to commend on the OP. IMO it's written in wrong mood.. you see, devs have already said numerous times that hi sec is not 100% secure. however there is IMO too little risk for too much reward for the gankers as they get most of their investments back as insurance. Thus, what needs to be done is to remove insurance payout for concord and faction navy/customs kills. sorry for redundancy.
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:45:00 - [228] Edited by: UGWidowmaker on 13/05/2007 06:44:40 you cant protect your freighters... any saying this is not knowing of game mechanisms.. as some stated it takes less than 1 minut to take a freighter down, now even with a FLEET as defense that wouldent be time enough to save the freigher. and the defense cant shoo the agressors before its ot late as concord will then **** em up! so defense and such cant be done in a proper way!. to much crap atm.. i sugest to keep freighters in station as protest till ccp boost concord... they should be there insta jam the agresors in 1.0 and the less sec the slower responce and less chance of them jamming the agressor. i think ill start using my alt and start gank freighters cause thats where the big isk atm.. ohh and the insurance company even pay back my big ship, so who cares... i loose 35 mill but gain maybe 2 or 4 billl.. ha ha thats good buizness. cant u see ccp that there is something wrong here... as some said earliere if u agress in 1.0 and down to 0.5 your friendly insurance company shouldent even consider paying out the amount of isk... and btw when in war insurance shouldent work either... thats just lame. (when killed or kill the war targets) if we suck at pvp then why come fight us all the time ???
Namtaru	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:31:00 - [229] GM: Sorry about your ship loss, nothing we can do. If you dont like it, please quit the game. We don't need you, we have plenty of other paying customers.
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:53:00 - [230] Quote: Actually it's about 40 mil per person. Insurance, drones and fittings aren't free. less *****, it isnt even 10 million. a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:57:00 - [231] Originally by: miskagirl a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. No fittings? Do they bump the freighter to death? Do they yell at him in local until he pops? Less posting more thinking kthx. Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Do they now? You know this how? Originally by: miskagirl c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol. How many suicide freighter ganks have you been in to give you this expansive knowledge about it? /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:18:00 - [232] I honestly don't see any change that could be made that wouldn't take away the spirit of eve.
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:41:00 - [233] Originally by: Sphynix This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs. I dont think you understand what "PVP" means. Monopoly is a PVP game. Counter Strike is a PVP game. Chess is a PVP game. In 2 of the three no one dies. PVP does not mean shooting peeps. Shooting peeps is however PVP. So is being a trader. You have to move it faster then the next guy or you lose. So is being a builder. You have to build it faster or cheaper then the other guy or you lose.
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:42:00 - [234] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: miskagirl a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. No fittings? Do they bump the freighter to death? Do they yell at him in local until he pops? Less posting more thinking kthx. Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Do they now? You know this how? Originally by: miskagirl c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol. How many suicide freighter ganks have you been in to give you this expansive knowledge about it? /Ki Maybe he thought it through and realised that T2 mods and drones on a ship who's only function is to put 5 drones on a freighter and wait to die would be somewhat redundant. As far as I can see all you need is hitpoints (Plates) maybe a sensor booster and the T1 drones. Add a Vigil or two to the gang for the warp scrambling and a scanner ship or two and bar the loot indys yr good to go it seems to me. And if I was expending Domis on a daily basis I would certainly be rolling my own. Sounds like common sense to me. Dunno why you had to flame him. Guess it's habit now.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:27:00 - [235] Originally by: Morgann Atreus Maybe he thought it through and realised that T2 mods and drones on a ship who's only function is to put 5 drones on a freighter and wait to die would be somewhat redundant. Don't think he thought it through, as he clearly lacked knowledge of the fact that you sort of need fittings in order to destroy another ship. Another point is that it's a lot better to use t2 drones, as they outdamage t1 by a large degree, and they won't be destroyed by concord once your ship pops. At least that has been my experience, and apart from many others in this thread, I do have experience when it comes to suicide ganking a freighter. Only once, and on a contract, but some of the points made here for the anti-suicide crowd are simply laughable when you have experienced the truth of the matter. Originally by: Morgann Atreus As far as I can see all you need is hitpoints (Plates) Not any more, as Concord now jams the drones after they show up, thus making survivability for the actual gank-ship redundant. Originally by: Morgann Atreus maybe a sensor booster and the T1 drones. Sensor booster is pointless and the drones should be t2. Originally by: Morgann Atreus Add a Vigil or two to the gang for the warp scrambling and a scanner ship or two and bar the loot indys yr good to go it seems to me. Why not scramble with the gank-ships? Originally by: Morgann Atreus And if I was expending Domis on a daily basis I would certainly be rolling my own. Does freighter suicide ganking strike you as something that occurs on a daily basis? Originally by: Morgann Atreus Sounds like common sense to me. Not really. Originally by: Morgann Atreus Dunno why you had to flame him. Guess it's habit now. Because he's amusingly mistaken in his points, yet he deems to demean another poster. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:31:00 - [236] * - Contract the services of other players, form merchant trains with escorts, pay your people well. * - Use logistic cruisers with remote repair drones, remote shield drones, this will buy you enough time for CONCORD to finish the offenders. One more suggestion, if you feel like you're walking a grocery cart filled $100 bills through the middle of Compton, then it's really time for you to move out. Start thinking about moving to 0.0 because you're counting on CONCORD to provide services they can't and were never meant to handle. If you remain in 1.0 and act foolish, expect for foolish things to happen to you. You're a big boy or big girl now, I know the world is big scary place, but thank god for clones.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:32:00 - [237] Originally by: Creed Richards Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is everywhere. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of PvP in that area as well, but that is another question. Fixed. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:35:00 - [238] Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Exept that they could have sold these ships for market cost instead. The "cost" of an item is always market cost. Spending your time getting the minerals and bpos/bpcs has a value, it's not "for free".
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:42:00 - [239] Didn't know about the drone jamming which obviously changes the rules; I assume this is post patch?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:56:00 - [240] Originally by: POTUS I'll say this again. If you are going to make a freighter drop it's loot like every other ship in the game, let them equip their ship like every other ship in the game. Before you start to flame me about shuttles, shut up you noob. QFT ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED

Rafein	Posted - 2007.06.29 19:04:00 - [241] wow, thread necro, pulling back over a month old post. But High sec is not secure space, it is more secure. And the problem with high sec suicide ganks is Players make themselves too juicy of targets. And Sadly, CCP can not patch in smarter players, so nothing really CCP can do.
dragonssbane Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.06.29 19:40:00 - [242] Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? A dangerous open ended game is what was intended. Read the back of the damn box. This game was intended to be played in a ruthless, dangerous and unforgiving environment, and has been played this way long before you decided to play. You sir are being very selfish and self centered to expect that things should be changed to your point of view because you don't like the way we are playing the game the way it was intended to be played in the first place. Deal with it...
Saori Rei Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.06.29 19:51:00 - [243] The simplest solution is to remove insurance on a ship that was either blown up by concord OR sentry guns.
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 19:56:00 - [244] Edited by: Morgann Atreus on 29/06/2007 19:59:30 Originally by: dragonssbane Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? A dangerous open ended game is what was intended. Read the back of the damn box. This game was intended to be played in a ruthless, dangerous and unforgiving environment, and has been played this way long before you decided to play. You sir are being very selfish and self centered to expect that things should be changed to your point of view because you don't like the way we are playing the game the way it was intended to be played in the first place. Deal with it... Something of a wide sweeping assumption being presented as established fact here I feel. Since when does CCP intend more than 50% of what happens in this game? Would also like one of the pro gankers to comment on the logic of Concorded ships receiving insurance payouts; as a general principal I mean.
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:21:00 - [245] Originally by: Morgann Atreus Edited by: Morgann Atreus on 29/06/2007 19:59:30 Originally by: dragonssbane Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? A dangerous open ended game is what was intended. Read the back of the damn box. This game was intended to be played in a ruthless, dangerous and unforgiving environment, and has been played this way long before you decided to play. You sir are being very selfish and self centered to expect that things should be changed to your point of view because you don't like the way we are playing the game the way it was intended to be played in the first place. Deal with it... Something of a wide sweeping assumption being presented as established fact here I feel. Since when does CCP intend more than 50% of what happens in this game? Would also like one of the pro gankers to comment on the logic of Concorded ships receiving insurance payouts; as a general principal I mean. Would you like to comment on the logic of a one-time insurance payment that's less than a 3rd of the payout? They should rename insurance to a "recycling contract" for "mineral salvage" or some such. "SomeNameCorpÖ has paid you 105,000,000 ISK for the minerals salvaged from your wreck." The nice people at SomeNameCorp don't care how you lost your ship, only for the tasty, tasty tritanium. Eve was explicitly developed as a PvP game. The devs have explicitly said that it's supposed to be dark and dangerous. The FAQ explicitly says you're not 100% safe anywhere. If anyone doesn't like that sort of game, they're simply in the wrong game. Just like someone trying to play zero-contact ice hockey. If you want to skate on ice without the bruising impacts, take up figure skating or some such. (to extend the metaphor)
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:37:00 - [246] Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/06/2007 20:40:49 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 29/06/2007 20:37:17 Originally by: Morgann Atreus Edited by: Morgann Atreus on 29/06/2007 19:59:30 Originally by: dragonssbane Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? A dangerous open ended game is what was intended. Read the back of the damn box. This game was intended to be played in a ruthless, dangerous and unforgiving environment, and has been played this way long before you decided to play. You sir are being very selfish and self centered to expect that things should be changed to your point of view because you don't like the way we are playing the game the way it was intended to be played in the first place. Deal with it... Something of a wide sweeping assumption being presented as established fact here I feel. Since when does CCP intend more than 50% of what happens in this game? Would also like one of the pro gankers to comment on the logic of Concorded ships receiving insurance payouts; as a general principal I mean. * dangerous - check * open ended - check * ruthless - check * unforgiving - check Sounds pretty much like fact to me rather than assumption
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:42:00 - [247] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Morgann Atreus Edited by: Morgann Atreus on 29/06/2007 19:59:30 Originally by: dragonssbane Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? A dangerous open ended game is what was intended. Read the back of the damn box. This game was intended to be played in a ruthless, dangerous and unforgiving environment, and has been played this way long before you decided to play. You sir are being very selfish and self centered to expect that things should be changed to your point of view because you don't like the way we are playing the game the way it was intended to be played in the first place. Deal with it... Something of a wide sweeping assumption being presented as established fact here I feel. Since when does CCP intend more than 50% of what happens in this game? Would also like one of the pro gankers to comment on the logic of Concorded ships receiving insurance payouts; as a general principal I mean. Would you like to comment on the logic of a one-time insurance payment that's less than a 3rd of the payout? Since you ask, yes. Car insurance premiums are commonly paid yearly and it would be extremely odd if the premiums were more than a third of the insured amount except in the case of old cars being isured by high risk drivers. But then EvE isn't insuring third party risks so the premiums should be even lower Now. fair's fair. I addressed your point. How about you address mine? They should rename insurance to a "recycling contract" for "mineral salvage" or some such. "SomeNameCorpÖ has paid you 105,000,000 ISK for the minerals salvaged from your wreck." The nice people at SomeNameCorp don't care how you lost your ship, only for the tasty, tasty tritanium. Eve was explicitly developed as a PvP game. The devs have explicitly said that it's supposed to be dark and dangerous. The FAQ explicitly says you're not 100% safe anywhere. If anyone doesn't like that sort of game, they're simply in the wrong game. Just like someone trying to play zero-contact ice hockey. If you want to skate on ice without the bruising impacts, take up figure skating or some such. (to extend the metaphor) Not arguing with you mate. Just asking you to comment on whether getting paid out on your insurance after getting youself Concorded makes sense. Asking me to justify some random stuff about premiums isn't addressing it; it's, rather obviously, blowing smoke.
Guilliman R Gallente PRO Space Hunters Federation Of united Corps	Posted - 2007.06.29 20:48:00 - [248] If they drop loot they are no difrent from any other ship. so give them module slots, atleast Med slots for shield stuff (as low slots can be abused for extra cargo) I'm sure if they put the money in it, lets say 5large shield extanders (or resits stuff will help those who opt for it. As it is right now, there much less safer (NOTE: I never say safe) then any other ship. sig needs colour, cookie to mod who adds something!
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.29 21:26:00 - [249] Originally by: Morgann Atreus Not arguing with you mate. Just asking you to comment on whether getting paid out on your insurance after getting youself Concorded makes sense. Asking me to justify some random stuff about premiums isn't addressing it; it's, rather obviously, blowing smoke. You're asking how getting Concorded and being paid insurance makes sense. His response pointed out the insurance contract doesn't pay correctly even when NOT being Concorded, so it's not really "insurance" to begin with - it's more like reimbursement for raw material cost.
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.24 23:24:00 - [250] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs I like suicide ganking. I dont do it, but it's a very realistic game dynamic. Think of it as high-sec terrorism. Someone suicide ganks, they die, simple. Meanwhile someone (an alt somewhere nearby) benefits in some way. People confuse high sec as being safe. It's not. period. If you're in a noobcorp, you cant be wardecced so thats protection. As a noob, that protects you when you dont understand the game, and more importantly, when you dont have anything of worth. When you start to become a target, through one mechanism or another, you have to learn how to protect your assets. It is much more reasonable low security you can defend yourself to high sec ganking you must learn to avoid big traffic and lower security than 0.8.

Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.07.24 23:54:00 - [251] As far as i am concerned there is a damned easy solutuion to this Allow players to buy free fire permits. Free fire permit works as follows Corp A plots a route with a concord offical/gm Concord is hereby notified that corp A is authorized to return fire if attacked and is not to interfere in their battle. Corp B decides to intercept. Corp B hits A A returns fire and everything works. Escorts in empire actually MEAN SOMETHING rather than getting concord ganked. But this permit ONLY applies to the route. Any action off the route will be responded to as normal. the only other real option is raising the cost of insurance for those who suicide gank. The problem there is proving it. I think this makes both sides happy. A gets the ability to fight back. B can still give it a shot.
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.25 02:12:00 - [252] Originally by: Kuseka Adama As far as i am concerned there is a damned easy solutuion to this Allow players to buy free fire permits. Free fire permit works as follows Corp A plots a route with a concord offical/gm Concord is hereby notified that corp A is authorized to return fire if attacked and is not to interfere in their battle. Corp B decides to intercept. Corp B hits A A returns fire and everything works. Escorts in empire actually MEAN SOMETHING rather than getting concord ganked. But this permit ONLY applies to the route. Any action off the route will be responded to as normal. the only other real option is raising the cost of insurance for those who suicide gank. The problem there is proving it. I think this makes both sides happy. A gets the ability to fight back. B can still give it a shot. Does corp not get attacking power when member is attacked in high security?
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.07.25 02:38:00 - [253] No insurance is all it will take to have it make sense IMO. and the drones should be shot at too, but mostly the insurance makes no sense to be given out to players ganked by concord. Is no insurance so hard to do? A Minmater City... Cool! My Skills
Kryttos	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:19:00 - [254] signed
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.07.25 18:22:00 - [255] Originally by: frihetskjemper Does corp not get attacking power when member is attacked in high security? Can someone please ban this clown for necroing? He's done this to about half a dozen threads already. Stop trying to get attention. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION \| Forum Whiners - Unite! IBTL! IATL! IBDS!
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 00:19:00 - [256] Originally by: FarScape III No insurance is all it will take to have it make sense IMO. and the drones should be shot at too, but mostly the insurance makes no sense to be given out to players ganked by concord. Is no insurance so hard to do? Who made you boss of my insurance?
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.26 00:24:00 - [257] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: frihetskjemper Does corp not get attacking power when member is attacked in high security? Can someone please ban this clown for necroing? He's done this to about half a dozen threads already. Stop trying to get attention. amen Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
Sgt Blade Dark Entropy	Posted - 2007.07.26 01:05:00 - [258] suicide gankers are fine, dont need any change tbh. if your really scared then put your stuff in secure cans so they cant scan you and/or bring protection in RL terms if you were to carry ú10 mill to your local shopping center and the people around you knew about it and that you dont ahve any protection then im sure your goin to get mugged Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5
Illyria Ambri RennTech	Posted - 2007.07.26 01:08:00 - [259] Originally by: Sgt Blade suicide gankers are fine, dont need any change tbh. if your really scared then put your stuff in secure cans so they cant scan you and/or bring protection You need to keep more up to date on the game. Containers in cargo CAN be scanned. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek Here come the Drums!! - The Master
StealthRavenx Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corps 5th Column	Posted - 2007.07.26 01:24:00 - [260] Can't be arsed to read rest of the thread, so here's my 2 cents. Hi-Sec, Was meant to be safer space, not safe. Live with it. Ganking can be fun sometimes, just try it :P ________________________________________

MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.07.26 02:37:00 - [261] I say make a suicide gank implies suicide implying that you lose everything you came with, not you get paid back as much as your brought with insurance. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 03:58:00 - [262] Originally by: MotherMoon I say make a suicide gank implies suicide implying that you lose everything you came with, not you get paid back as much as your brought with insurance. I pay insurance so I get isk no matter what.
Kutul	Posted - 2007.07.26 05:03:00 - [263] Signed.. just lost nearly all my assests ( not much anyways ) to a Domi and hauler in 0.6 wasnt even afk but on auto.. Spoke about it in a another thread and had it locked...
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 19:35:00 - [264] Originally by: Kutul Signed.. just lost nearly all my assests ( not much anyways ) to a Domi and hauler in 0.6 wasnt even afk but on auto.. Spoke about it in a another thread and had it locked... Auto afk or not afk auto still death when not warp safe.
morgannax	Posted - 2007.07.26 19:54:00 - [265] you wanna see how quick they change this get a few thousand ppl to make a alt and start killing all the new players in the game. stop their source of new income and i bet they'll decide to do something
frihetskjemper	Posted - 2007.07.26 21:36:00 - [266] Originally by: morgannax you wanna see how quick they change this get a few thousand ppl to make a alt and start killing all the new players in the game. stop their source of new income and i bet they'll decide to do something Ability do anything you want make EVE great game.
Firane 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.07.26 22:29:00 - [267] Edited by: Firane on 26/07/2007 22:31:29 When my crime in my suburban neighborhood is thwarted 100% of the time by instantly acting police, that is when I will support this. I'm disappointed Creed. You of all people should be familiar with free will. -----
Polle Producer	Posted - 2007.08.30 15:44:00 - [268] As a pirate ganking in secure space there is no risk and alot if revard. The only downside is that you have to rat inbetween the ganks to get your sec rating back up. The reason there is no risk is because you know concord will attack you, the haulers dont shoot back, you get all loot back from the insurence or scooping alt, and you can calculate your loss and estimate revard in advance. The best way to fix this is. 1: Remove cargo scanners from game! This will make it possible to suicide gank someone if you really hate them, or have spy intel telling you its wort it. However ganking random haulers and freighters because you profit on it would be pretty much dead as you wouldnt know if its empty or not. 2: Reduce insurance payout if concord is involved to base payout. This makes it more expencive to suicide, and you would have to have a reson to do it, and not just for fun. 2 simple changes that woulg get rid of unnesessary but not all suicide ganks in high sec.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.08.30 15:50:00 - [269] thread necro? - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:25:00 - [270] No place in EVE is safe. Simple as that. Stop trying to change a game mechanic that is fair but you don't like.

Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:26:00 - [271] I'll say it one more time. Suicide ganking is broken because of the possibility of alts. Gank with your main, and I'm fine with it. Otherwise, kindly stfu. ---------------
Yagyu Retsudo Yagyu Holdings	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:48:00 - [272] Originally by: frihetskjemper Originally by: MotherMoon I say make a suicide gank implies suicide implying that you lose everything you came with, not you get paid back as much as your brought with insurance. I pay insurance so I get isk no matter what. Yay - look , an alt with an unintelligible name! Typical of these gangs. The obvious fix - and the one CCP should be contemplating, is removing insurance payouts for death by CONCORD. Also, requiring a credit card to create a trial account would be nice, as they are rampantly used as disposable scouts / bait.
Corpal Ghost	Posted - 2007.09.19 22:03:00 - [273] I have an idea that I would like you guys to explore...it may be dumb or not realistic for some oversight i have not thunk of; but it's an idea so lets look at it: If Concord is trying to portray highsec space safe, wouldn't they not want ship wreckage floating around in thier beloved high sec space...My point is: For PVP which happens in high sec without a WarDec concord should immediatly clean up the wreckage upon arrival/killing agressor ... This would be good for 2 reasons: it would still make it possible to go in and kill someone in high sec and take thier loot.thus not eliminating risk or severly hurting PVP , provided you were able to get out of there before concord showed up And it would eliminate the exploit of being able to go in there with an alt to go claim the wreckage in the case of a suicide gank as by the time you got there concord will have already "cleaned up the wreckage" as you go into lower sec systems concord takes a longer time to show up therefore making it more possible to loot and this will help maintain the graduated structure in the security system This way PVP isn't nerfed , and people who still want to be safe in high sec are alot safer then they would be in a lower sec system I contemplated the idea of giving the loot back to the killed after the clean-up bu decided this wouldn't be very smart becuase it would make highsec risk free...this way the risk is still there and the PVP possibility but the motive to use an exploit disapears
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.19 22:13:00 - [274] Creed Richards Minmatar Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion lulz God Bless, E I ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.20 01:38:00 - [275] /signed
port22 The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:20:00 - [276] The way I look at it, its valid. CCP designed the system so suicide ganks were possible. If CCP didnt want it happening, it would be declared an exploit and people would be getting banned. No offence to anyone, but if you dont like it, tough. Its how the game is. Imo its how the game should be and its how the game should stay, period. The only thing I could see changing would be voiding insurance on high sec non war target kills. Dont agree with my opinion, thats fine, but dont flame me cause you cant discuss an issue. Originally by: Temp Boi Port FTMFW Period.
34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:33:00 - [277] Reduce insurance. The rest remains the same.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:33:00 - [278] this is a necro - mods shut it down SKUNK Originally by: Jeximo I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.
Mirarj	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:44:00 - [279] ffs eve-o forums you never cease to amaze me at your stupidity (directed at the op and their supporters). 0.5 space and above IS safe. people breaking the law (ie. agressing) are punished with the destruction of their ship. end of story. thats how it works. taking away insurance payouts for concordokkened ships ruins the risk of freighter ***s flying their ISK-cow because it drastically kills the pirates sacrifice-return ratio. and if an alliance puts time and effort into sniffing out enemy frieghter pilots in newb corps then they should have that option to greif them. this game IS player vesus player. i dont beleive carebears should be completely safe. and lets face it, they arent going broke from losses. man up and act like youve got a pair. what sort of **** flys a freighter with their entire fortune inside its hull. if you have billions in a single load, chances are youve got plenty more where that came from anyway. the first rule of eve is dont fly what you cant afford to lose. the second rule of eve is dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
Arron S Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.20 02:56:00 - [280] I say we bring mines back into the game, that can be store in cargo holds. So when the ship is destroyed the mines go boom.

Mr Crowley Minmatar Rome SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:38:00 - [281] I was suicided over a year ago and lost half a billion. Does this hit CCP pocket book? Yes it does. I just returned to eve, only because it is the only game like it and I am stuck with it till another makes a game like it. 12 X 15 = 180 bucks, and I am just one person. No discussion of moderation in signatures please - email us if you have any questions - Jacques([email protected])
Mirarj	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:46:00 - [282] errrr you have 12 accounts subbed??
Krazy Bitsch	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:15:00 - [283] Originally by: Mr Crowley I was suicided over a year ago and lost half a billion. Does this hit CCP pocket book? Yes it does. I just returned to eve, only because it is the only game like it and I am stuck with it till another makes a game like it. 12 X 15 = 180 bucks, and I am just one person. are u saying you have 12 accounts??? no willpower? or no life? or maybe both??? seriously man, quit your whining, go outside and get some air.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:20:00 - [284] I'm thinking he's talking about a years sub.. 12 accounts would be a bit overboard for anyone unless you own a macro shop.. I have three and can't for the life of me think of any reason to get a fourth.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:29:00 - [285] Originally by: Mr Crowley I was suicided over a year ago and lost half a billion. Does this hit CCP pocket book? Yes it does. I just returned to eve, only because it is the only game like it and I am stuck with it till another makes a game like it. 12 X 15 = 180 bucks, and I am just one person. Or you could... wait for it... not play it. Read a book. Play a console game. Play a different genre of MMO. Take up needlepoint. Go for a walk. The world doesn't end if you stop pew-pewing with spaceships.
Araya Meiteselle Gallente Ore Liberation Front	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:32:00 - [286] To the OP: ok, first off... can I have your stuff ? 2ndly, the Devs gave us an open sandbox to play in. Think of this sandbox as raising a child, whatever we put in it is what the child will become. We have fed EvE death, war, piracy, theft, ransoming, The privateers, BoB, The goons, RA, all warring factions. EvE is dangerous... She gave birth to Titans, Dreads, and carriers. Since birth she was fed danger, she thrives on danger, and she will bite you if you are not really REALLY careful. Its the way we as the player base raised her. Again to the OP, if this is the type of kid you don't want to play with in the sandbox .... GTFO !
Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:35:00 - [287] Edited by: Zephlin Abath on 20/09/2007 04:35:00 Outside is dangerous! Stay safe docked up in your station. That way you don't lose your sitting duck. Or at least get people who know what they are doing to make your duck do less sitting and more moving. Where there is a way for pirates to yaar at you and make ISK off you when you think it is safe, there is always a way to get around it and make those yaar aweful pirates think twice. Though this is my opinion, and in many cases my opinion doesn't count, this very well could be one of those cases.
riprjak Hermits Rest	Posted - 2007.09.20 05:22:00 - [288] Originally by: Nyabinghi Edited by: Nyabinghi on 27/03/2007 19:36:54 Yeah I think the best solution here is essentially tanking the haulers up and if they are rather gimped for tank then perhaps CCP should do something about that. Essentially you need to stay alive till the cops show up. Or you could flag the wreck of the gankee so that the concordokken commeth to they who loot it :) Sorta like an eve "accesories after the fact" law...
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 05:28:00 - [289] we the undersigned, encourage the suicide ganking of this thread 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Amaron Ghant Caldari b00's Crew	Posted - 2007.09.20 06:08:00 - [290] Bleh. Suicide ganking isn't a broken mechanic. What IS broken is insurance payouts for ships killed by concorde. Removing insurance for ships killed by concorde won't stop suicide ganking completely but it will make it a more risky proposition (isk wise) for those indulging in it.

Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.20 07:02:00 - [291] Um hmmm, and just like the issues with can flagging it won't be a week after this new "no insurance for Concord kills" patch hits before people start screaming about it. I can hear it now: "I just started this cursed game, and I accidentally shot someones can. The LAW blew me up and now I have no isk. I quit this sucky game." Or "I was tricked into agressing someone and now I've lost everything. Sure, I turned off the warning, but he swore to me it was okay if we were in the same gang. Now I'm broke and I quit this sucky game." Followed closely by "This new insurance non-payout patch unfairly punishes the most vulnerable of our community, the noobie. Who thought this was a good idea? Way to go CCP, you've made EVE a sucky game." Don't believe me? Go review what happened after can flagging came into effect. To put it simply, if you "only want to live in peace in high sec space", you are taking the game waaaaay to seriously. It's a game, it's supposed to have challenges and dangers. Thats what makes it what we call in the real world "FUN".
Fester Addams Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:21:00 - [292] One of the problems with high sec suiciding is that there is no way to get at the hauler. The ship that attacks you is dead, concord saw to that but the way they make their isk is to have an alt or buddy in a hauler at the gate that flies forth and loots the wreck as soon as the target is dead and there is no way to get at that ship as he/she was actually not involved in the kill. So how about solving it with ownership of the wreck? Lets use an example: Individuals involved are the pirates, player 1 and 2. 1 is in a suicide ship and 2 is in a hauler. The victims are player A and B, player A is the hauler and player B is a corp/gang mate that is escorting. There is also a player C, he is also hauling and witnesses the event, we will come back to player C later. Player 1 targets and pops player A in 5 sc flat only to himself be popped by concord 8 sec later, 1 and A are out of the picture being eggs. As is now this would happen next: Player 2 now procedes upp to the can and loots it and warps to a station to unload his ill gotten booty, cacling with glee. Player B the escort sits there unable to do anything. This is how I would propose it should go: Player 2 now flies upp to the wreck and loots it, this flaggs him as aggro vs Player A, his corp and gang (like with a can). This was the thing player B was waiting for, he locks the hauler, scrams him and blows him upp for trying to steal what is not his, this ability to protect the can gives player A, B or one of their friends a chance to get there with a new hauler and salvage what is left. Naturally the wreck should have dual ownership. This would meen that if player 1 and 2, now angry for loosing out on their hauler, come back in new ships spots player C the aforementioned witness turned opportunist looting the wreck, this should light player C upp as a target for them allowing them to "protect" their "libirated" stuff as well as lighting upp player C as a target for player A and B if they are still there. In short, the wrecks should be owned both by the winner and the looser in a PvP conflict as this would allow for escorts.
Constance Noring	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:38:00 - [293] Place an upper limit of around 5M to the insurance payout in case of concordokken. Almost as good as nothing when you lose a battleship, but enough of a safety net for noobs doing silly things in their shiny new cruisers.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.20 11:48:00 - [294] How.....don't transport expensive goods in a tech 1 ship with a paper thin hull? Use scouts to check for trouble? Avoid systems where suicide bombers are known to operate. I dunno, but all the mechanisms to do this seem to be in game already and that wouldn't need to change anything in Eve.
SgtDeaux	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:03:00 - [295] I agree.. People should gank more of the AFK haulers thru empire.. For instance people should park themselves near the AMARR system and gank any of the afk haulers that come thru there all day long. /signed
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:29:00 - [296] What is the necessary firepower to take down a freighter? I was told that it would be 19 t1 battleships, and you'd have to be carrying at least a bil to make it worth all those pilots time preferably 2bil+ is this true?
N1fty Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.09.20 12:34:00 - [297] Please remove concord so all these carebears go back to WoW. ============================================
34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.20 14:29:00 - [298] Edited by: 34534bobalt3244 on 20/09/2007 14:29:32 Originally by: Ranger 1 Um hmmm, and just like the issues with can flagging it won't be a week after this new "no insurance for Concord kills" patch hits before people start screaming about it. I can hear it now: "I just started this cursed game, and I accidentally shot someones can. The LAW blew me up and now I have no isk. I quit this sucky game." Or "I was tricked into agressing someone and now I've lost everything. Sure, I turned off the warning, but he swore to me it was okay if we were in the same gang. Now I'm broke and I quit this sucky game." Followed closely by "This new insurance non-payout patch unfairly punishes the most vulnerable of our community, the noobie. Who thought this was a good idea? Way to go CCP, you've made EVE a sucky game." Don't believe me? Go review what happened after can flagging came into effect. To put it simply, if you "only want to live in peace in high sec space", you are taking the game waaaaay to seriously. It's a game, it's supposed to have challenges and dangers. Thats what makes it what we call in the real world "FUN". You are right. The people that have their entire belongings in one ships cargohold are learning a very big lesson. And to have that amount of wealth in their ship only means they can attain it again and even faster with their current skills and experience.
Platinum Dragon	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:05:00 - [299] Welcome to eve Bring friends
Timotheus Siberius Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:33:00 - [300] Originally by: Creed Richards But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? Maybe this could be a point to be addressed - only people in the gang of the attacker should be able to loot. In return, the gang of the transporter should be able to attack the looter (and aggressor) gang as a whole. Originally by: Creed Richards Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? It is not. But it takes some dedication to violate the security, which is fine. The only safe space should be docked and not being online. Originally by: Creed Richards You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. You can achieve greater protection if you don't fly alone. If you choose to transport billions, it is a dangerous endeavour if you try it alone. It's a multiplayer game after all. I know it may be hard to organize things, especially for more casual gamers, but you are supposed to organize yourself, it is a vital part of the game. Originally by: Creed Richards Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. It is pretty safe, although that safety can be circumvented. I appreciate that part of the game and I think it adds a lot, even if I am one of those casual gamers who have been and will be on the receiving end of those acts of violence. I have learned from it. * See you in space!

Ilya Murametz Caldari Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.09.20 15:37:00 - [301] This has been discussed through and through but it all comes down to one thing. Which some folk will start screaming about " you fool don't compare real life to game" and in most cases i would support their "argument" but come on, lets be real here. Disclaimer This next paragraph is for amusement, but has some truth to it you gotta admit If I sit at the intersection (gate) with 15 of my friends (gang) all in pick up trucks (Dominixs) with police circling me (concord) all of the sudden I see a big semi truck with Wal Mart painted across of it (Freighter/Hauler). I yell to the friends... RAM, we all ram the semi, flip him over, Popos (concord) spanks us to death (we get concordided) our other friends come along (alts) grab all they can (looting the wreck). We go home and file a claim (we open wallet to make INSURANCE MONEY IS THERE).. Now... as silly as a paragraph above was, would you rekon Geiko, State Farm or any other insurance company would go: "We greatly regret that your vehicle got totaled in the process of you and your friends ramming the crap out of that semi and police finishing your vehicle off by blowing it up and sending us a police report about it because it happened right in front of them, but here's your money to buy yourself a new vehicle, and some extra in case you need to get rims for it"... I fully agree with pilots who say it should not be 100% safe and you're in danger as soonÖ as you undock, and if you wanna suicide gank, by all means go right ahead, it's your choice. BUT for people who are screaming it has consequence and their fair... , oh come on, be real, you scream that the punishment of losing your ship to concord and get paid for it is fair practice (in some cases insurance pay out is more than the ship is worth)?... Security drop is hardly a punishment for committing a crime right in front of many witnesses, most of them being POLICE So to sum it all up, the only sensible thing to do would be to remove insurance pay out for the ship lost due to acts of crime in high sec at least or ships lost to Concord. With that said, i'm not a programmer so I do not know how hard that would be to implement or if it's even possible. P.S. Before famous trolling and flaming occurs, I neither have been suicide ganked or participated in suicide gank 2nd P.S. can we really call it a suicide now to think of it: Suicide - is direct when one has the intention of causing ones own death, whether as an end to be attained, or as a means to another end, as when a man kills himself to escape condemnation, disgrace, ruin, etc.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:14:00 - [302] Originally by: Ilya Murametz So to sum it all up, the only sensible thing to do would be to remove insurance pay out for the ship lost due to acts of crime in high sec at least or ships lost to Concord. With that said, i'm not a programmer so I do not know how hard that would be to implement or if it's even possible. Suicide gate attacks are not a big problem and this solution would affect far more players than those bothered by suicide attacks in hi-sec. I imagine the effects on CCPs petition queue would be substantial.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.20 16:22:00 - [303] A simple solution to make people less disturbed by the safety pirates have would be. Killing a ship in high sec gives you instance -5 security. Done, now you can defend yourself with friends and even hunt them back. Pretty fair I would say. fair enough that concord could even be nerfed a bit after that. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.20 20:57:00 - [304] Originally by: Kagura Nikon A simple solution to make people less disturbed by the safety pirates have would be. Killing a ship in high sec gives you instance -5 security. Done, now you can defend yourself with friends and even hunt them back. Pretty fair I would say. fair enough that concord could even be nerfed a bit after that. It might not be enough for most that complain about it. Sounds like a fair solution from a neutral view.
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:00:00 - [305] This hasnt been brought up before.Concord has expenses.They have a insurance company that doesnt discriminate.Corporations are always looking for new business opportunites.Why doesnt Concord open a new line of busines? Concord Security Services.A player can create a contract with concord to provide security ships while enroute to destination.Select point of orgin,select destination,select ship.Only players with Freighter skills can use this service,and only freighter type ships can be the target of these services.If grouped with other type ships,they will not be defended.Any ship that scans,or locks the Freighter while under Concord protection would get a pop up telling them to the effect,"this ship is under the protection of CSS,you will be wtfpwnd if you continue your hostile actions,do you wish to continue?" Concord doesnt police low-sec,escorts would only be available in 0.5-1.0.When picking the routes each waypoint along the route would need to be confirmed manually,the list pops up,the player would need to check a box to confirm.Any deviation from the route would cancel the contract.Any unplanned stops into a station would cancel the contract.The cost of these services would be quite large,and per waypoint.maybe along the lines of 10-50 mil isk per waypoint.Yes quite prohibitive,but what is worse,less profit,or losing it all? This wouldnt really change the game mechanics much.No major additions/revamps would be needed.You wouldnt even need to have concord ships in attendance.Just need the pop-up to show up to let the baddies know whatl happen....even easier would be to flag the freighter on the overview as under CCP protection.
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:05:00 - [306] I do not agree, high sec is supposed to be safer, not safe. If suicide ganking is not allowed, all people will have to do is get an alt in a newb corp that is unable to be war dec'd and they're immune from the consequences of their actions. Its a horrible idea. Eve Golden Rules
Tenerhaddi Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:19:00 - [307] Originally by: Mini Coupe I have no problem with suicide ganking in high-sec so much as with insurance payouts to suicide gankers. Why should people blown up committing a crime be rewarded with insurance payouts. If Concord blows up your ship there should be zero insurance payout. agreed! I also think the lower your sec statues the higher the insurance cost. and lower insurance payout! ---------------- http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
Daimos Bellurdan Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:53:00 - [308] Edited by: Daimos Bellurdan on 20/09/2007 21:53:51 Originally by: Ilya Murametz ... Now... as silly as a paragraph above was, would you rekon Geiko, State Farm or any other insurance company would go: "We greatly regret that your vehicle got totaled in the process of you and your friends ramming the crap out of that semi and police finishing your vehicle off by blowing it up and sending us a police report about it because it happened right in front of them, but here's your money to buy yourself a new vehicle, and some extra in case you need to get rims for it"... ... Think about it this way: Eves economy is a system of hyper-capitalism. You can do whatever you want to for profit. Now the insurance company has the option to: a) not pay for ships that were blown up by force x (in this case concord, a privat security company) but lose all customers that follow criminal activities and their money (thats a lot of money). b) pay the "criminals" and keep them as customers. It seems that b) results in higher profit for the insurance company so why should they change it? People should stop looking at >0.5 space as secure space. The sec status only shows how fast and hard concord will react to breaches of rules the occupying faction has released (gallente etc). Thats all. In the end you are in lawless space no matter where you are. You want totally secure space like in other MMOs ? I suggest you change games or stay docked 24/7. Just because other games have it doesn't mean Eve should have it as well (thank god and ccp).
Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.20 22:20:00 - [309] Originally by: Platinum Dragon Welcome to eve Bring friends And booze
NeoTheo Caldari Dark Materials Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 00:17:00 - [310] I am not a pirate let me first make that clear. however, for crying out loud WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GUYS GET THE IDEA THAT 1.0 IS "SAFE"? even the first tutorial tells you it aint. eve is about protecting yer ass at all times. you can bet if you have seen some kinda trade run that you think will be profitable for you, then someone else has seen that also, and more to the point he might very well not want to exploit the thing you have found in the same way. WELCOME TO EVE, NO PLACE IS SAFE, save of course for a station, and a log off button. (ive never poped a innocent in empire before you all start calling me a greifer). i just wish people would wise up and stop trying to ruin the most magical part of eve, the part that sets it apart from other games. wow = ---> that way. /Theo http://atomicrain.net/eve_sig.jpg

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.21 00:23:00 - [311] Originally by: NeoTheo I am not a pirate let me first make that clear. however, for crying out loud WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GUYS GET THE IDEA THAT 1.0 IS "SAFE"? even the first tutorial tells you it aint. eve is about protecting yer ass at all times. you can bet if you have seen some kinda trade run that you think will be profitable for you, then someone else has seen that also, and more to the point he might very well not want to exploit the thing you have found in the same way. WELCOME TO EVE, NO PLACE IS SAFE, save of course for a station, and a log off button. (ive never poped a innocent in empire before you all start calling me a greifer). i just wish people would wise up and stop trying to ruin the most magical part of eve, the part that sets it apart from other games. wow = ---> that way. /Theo People who don't know to, as my sysadmin would gently say it, RTFM, will always whine about it. Don't skip your tutorial, lads. It contains good info
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.21 01:44:00 - [312] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 21/09/2007 01:45:31 Originally by: NeoTheo I am not a pirate let me first make that clear. however, for crying out loud WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GUYS GET THE IDEA THAT 1.0 IS "SAFE"? even the first tutorial tells you it aint. eve is about protecting yer ass at all times. you can bet if you have seen some kinda trade run that you think will be profitable for you, then someone else has seen that also, and more to the point he might very well not want to exploit the thing you have found in the same way. WELCOME TO EVE, NO PLACE IS SAFE, save of course for a station, and a log off button. (ive never poped a innocent in empire before you all start calling me a greifer). i just wish people would wise up and stop trying to ruin the most magical part of eve, the part that sets it apart from other games. wow = ---> that way. /Theo Who said people are asking for high sec to be safe? Most people that lost ships in high sec are asking suicide actions to be punished not rewarded. If purpose of Concord is to punish pilots attacking other pilots in high sec, then make sure they feel the pain. If suicide ganker ends up with 100,200 or 300 hundread mil ISK more in his wallet then he had before the gank then he is not really punished he is REWARDED for attacking others in high sec. Game mechanics are broken and a failure in this case and thats whats wrong, otherwise remove Concord because its obviously not up to the task.
Johnny ReeRee The ReeRee Brigade	Posted - 2007.09.21 03:50:00 - [313] It's obvious there's a problem. The deck is completely stacked for the gankbear, who gets to operate in complete safety and no fear of any consequence whatever. And people suggesting that every freighter movement has to be some massive corp operation involving oodles of logistics ship is just lawlz-stupid. They really have no idea at all how often freighters need to move around. You guys want to stop the 0.0 wars for a while and spend half your time on freighter ops. But you can't even defend the freighter -- unless you want to get concorded yourself, and eat a security hit. People are just stupid, and that includes Avon and his super-sekritz-frigate strategy, which is crapola. It might work for his bobbit blobs but it's lousy game-play and a stupid plan.
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.21 04:15:00 - [314] I don't see the problem. People who suicide gank lose their ships and lose sec status. The system is working as intended. As for losing lots of isk, would you haul a ton of gold bricks in the back of a U-Haul truck, or in a Brinks armored car? Originally by: Khavi Vetali Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.21 04:29:00 - [315] Originally by: Berrik Radhok I don't see the problem. People who suicide gank lose their ships and lose sec status. The system is working as intended. As for losing lots of isk, would you haul a ton of gold bricks in the back of a U-Haul truck, or in a Brinks armored car? They dont lose ships because they get insurance payout so its not like they really lose them. Losing security status is punishment in low sec, I'm sure high sec punishment should be more then just that. When it comes to being a smar-ass hauler, I'm sure we all think only stupid people get ganked until YOU become the victim....
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 04:47:00 - [316] Ok its time for the game to be fixed. I have never been ganked nor participated in one. I am against pirates but understand the need for them. However hisec profit ganking should NOT BE IN THIS GAME. Unless you can suddenly turn transports into virtual battleships with POS shielding. Sound's insane doesn't it? Just like the idea that a robber ganker can get his craft blown up by concord only to waltz to the next ship where he has a nice fat piece of the loot the alts gave him on top of the wonderful insurance agent tossing him the money for the claim. These tired defenses surrounding the fact that EVE isnt safe are silly and have nothing to do with the problem at hand. Many of the gankers of course are desperate to hold onto their newfound source of unbalanced wealth that will quickly allow them to acquire more and better ganking ships and even buy characters they can do better ganks with. Pretty soon a simple ganker group can become quite wealthy with little thought or work. There is a difference between hisec and lowsec/zerosec. Hisec is traditionally where most of the market takes place and has rather poor materials and riches that take time to accumlinate but offers the prospect of doing it rather safely. The idea is that a well planned attack could reach you even in hisec if someone is REALLY ticked off at you. Lowsec/Zerosec is where you go when you feel lucky or ready to achieve real wealth at great risk. Weither it's hard to kill rats, or pirates (with good tactics) or Corps holding their turf. Such space is a rollar coaster ride that is sure to please those who are prepared. Right now this balance is totally upset. Instead of going in to gank some ship (or groups of ships) for bar laugh rights or to show who is the boss... Ganking has now become the profit making and game ruining ability of the galaxy. There is no comparason anymore! Anyone with a few friends and a few alts can make unbelieveable amounts of money in zip time! The LOL factor is gone here people. Everyone is going to start feeling the effects soon! As the ganking continues the attraction and the loot will start to attract a large amount of people doing nothing but ganking and looting. Less and less transporting will be made along with mining and manufacture meaning the EVE economy will quickly start to degrade. Within 6 months or so I suspect. The profit from attempting a transport run or a big mine will not be enough to cover the losses to be expected from roving gangs of gankers with little to oppose them since all attempts to attack first will lead to a concord visit. Lowsec pirates will feel the pain first. Why would anyone attempt a lowsec expedition when they are starting to take serious losses from gankers in Hisec? Lowsec will quickly become deserted as targets quickly dry up and pirates quit (most likely going to ganking) simply because there is nothing to steal. Zerospace corps will quickly take losses from their expeditions to get supplies in hisec come under extreme fire from gankers. So you say (Well then the corps will WARDEC em and everything will be fine!) NO NO NO! These gankers arent idiots and expect wardecs! They have Alt chars to get the loot! Don't you expect them to make fake alt corps?! You know the ones that during a wardec everyone can move to and keep moving until the zerospace corp has expended perhaps billions wardecing fake corp after fake corp. As EVE starts to become a wolf and sheep game. Where if you dare try to do anything in hisec you are simply sheep to feed the wolves that are in MUCH higher numbers then. Do you honestly think anyone will want to continue to play? I sure as heck will not! Go ahead. Try to dispute this. Schools today teach so little basic economic theory that I am not sure all that many of the pro-(keep everything the same) can even understand what they are supporting here. Ganking WILL be the death of EVE!. I will discuss a solution in my next post.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 04:47:00 - [317] Solutions. There is a simple way to fix this, and of course there is the hard way to fix this. And then there is the death way to fix this by letting things get so out of control that the gankers start to leave for not having any targets. There is of course many of the gankers here to desperately try to defend their newfound unbalanced wealth. Quoting everything they can to try to make their crazed activity seem good and the way things are supposed to be. Do you think they care about what happens to EVE when they are making boatloads of Isk? I think not. There are those of course who have not done ganking but are very afraid of another nerf or any change either because either they have been soured by a change done in the past or like the way things are where you can stumble into some gank scene where you get lag like crazy from concord all over the place. There are those who dispise hisec folk. Who welcome the ganks because its a way to hurt those who arent ready to come out of hisec. Again little care here obviously about its overall effect on the game. I think the intentions of both camps are pretty clear here. The alt posting and behaviour on the gankers both on and off the game demonstrate that there is little need to debate with them directly. As all you will get is desperate crap and junk thrown at ya. I have no will to debate with the gankers today. If you are a ganker and arent willing to balance things out, you mise will move on to the next posts. The game must be balanced. Ganking for profit MUST be stopped but ganking for ego or to cause chaos in hisec is an important part of keeping the game interesting. A blanced can be achieved! I want ganking to be a laughable subject again! I want to LoL at youtube videos of gankers blowing apart unsuspecting silly people for laughs! Not profit. It will be funny again when the gankers start to lose 100-200 million per gank but do it still because its funny and gives ego points. A gank ought to bring ego and cost tons of money! When it becomes a super profit sport it isn't that anymore! I support the game not being safe from ego/laugh gankers! That is the way to go!
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 04:48:00 - [318] ---- To fix this issue requires a series of changes that will keep the game from violently switching from one mindset to another. I will detail the fixes below. Fix1: The obvious one! If concord pops you for breaking the law. You get NO insurance payments period. No recoop for what you paid to get it either. You break the law.. you forgo any protection. Fix2: If someone is ganked in hisec with a concord ship nearby. Concord will claim the loot and get it moved to the market for sale in the local region. NOBODY gets free loot here. Concord keeps a percentage of the loot as payment for quickly deploying to blast the ganker. A variation on this is concord will destroy the loot right there with weapons fire to prevent anyone from making profit from such a nasty act. Fix3: (Controversial) All empire major stations and jump gates have devices that prevent weapons fire within a radius around it. The radius will not be enough for protection 100 percent during AFK AP running but will prevent stupidly close ganks. This is logical as whoever is running these things surely isnt in the mood to walk to the window and see ships 1000 meters out ganking someone with crap and stuff flying towards the station and scaring people. This needs heavy debate. Fix4: Make lowsec profitable again! Get the ganking to move to lowsec! Currently it JUST isnt worth it to try to get in there and make money from the better ores. A good balance betten pirates and profit needs to be made so that ganking in lowsec becomes just a bad day and not a carrear or game ruiner. Lowsec needs to be a bullride of epic proportions for those who want to take the chance. I strongly suggest CCP sit down and totally redesign the lowsec systems, change the dyamics to help bring in more people by making it a tad better for them., and of course better rat drops and roid belts to be able to on average (After facoring in unlucky days with pirates and big ore prices) make more money in lowsec then you can in hisec with the lack of losses. Currently thats not the case otherwise there would be ALOT more nonpirates in lowsec. --- Closing. To close I want to note that what compelled me to write this post paper was an interesting shuttle trip to visit some of the empire capitals. During the trip I suddenly found myself in the middle of a gank! Of course I was cloaked and not involved with the gank. However, I learned a great deal about how sadly simple it is for these gankers to come in and make money. A wardec was announced but we already know that the ganker will simply go to an alt corp. Leading to no targets to remove from the ganking scene. This MUST be fixed! This mixture of exploits and just downright unbalanced crap is already killing the game!
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 08:51:00 - [319] Originally by: Johnny ReeRee The deck is completely stacked for the gankbear, who gets to operate in complete safety and no fear of any consequence whatever. The deck is completely stacked in favour of the would be victims. Transport expensive goods in ships that cannot be easily ganked. If it costs more to gank you in hi-sec than is gained from stealing your stuff, then the gank isn't worth it. If people would stop whining and instead apply their brains to flying ships which offer appropriate security for the goods carried, then this "problem" wouldn't exist to the extent it does. An extent which is limited at best anyway. So to conclude. Hi-sec ganking is not broken. The victims have all the advantages if they think about it. However, the victims are typically stupid people. The gankers capitalise on the stupidity of others. Solution: don't be stupid.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:19:00 - [320] Edited by: Malcanis on 21/09/2007 09:20:03 Originally by: Zachstar ---- To fix this issue requires a series of changes that will keep the game from violently switching from one mindset to another. I will detail the fixes below. Fix1: The obvious one! If concord pops you for breaking the law. You get NO insurance payments period. No recoop for what you paid to get it either. You break the law.. you forgo any protection. Fix2: If someone is ganked in hisec with a concord ship nearby. Concord will claim the loot and get it moved to the market for sale in the local region. NOBODY gets free loot here. Concord keeps a percentage of the loot as payment for quickly deploying to blast the ganker. A variation on this is concord will destroy the loot right there with weapons fire to prevent anyone from making profit from such a nasty act. Fix3: (Controversial) All empire major stations and jump gates have devices that prevent weapons fire within a radius around it. The radius will not be enough for protection 100 percent during AFK AP running but will prevent stupidly close ganks. This is logical as whoever is running these things surely isnt in the mood to walk to the window and see ships 1000 meters out ganking someone with crap and stuff flying towards the station and scaring people. This needs heavy debate. Fix4: Make lowsec profitable again! Get the ganking to move to lowsec! Currently it JUST isnt worth it to try to get in there and make money from the better ores. A good balance betten pirates and profit needs to be made so that ganking in lowsec becomes just a bad day and not a carrear or game ruiner. Lowsec needs to be a bullride of epic proportions for those who want to take the chance. I strongly suggest CCP sit down and totally redesign the lowsec systems, change the dyamics to help bring in more people by making it a tad better for them., and of course better rat drops and roid belts to be able to on average (After facoring in unlucky days with pirates and big ore prices) make more money in lowsec then you can in hisec with the lack of losses. Currently thats not the case otherwise there would be ALOT more nonpirates in lowsec. --- Closing. To close I want to note that what compelled me to write this post paper was an interesting shuttle trip to visit some of the empire capitals. During the trip I suddenly found myself in the middle of a gank! Of course I was cloaked and not involved with the gank. However, I learned a great deal about how sadly simple it is for these gankers to come in and make money. A wardec was announced but we already know that the ganker will simply go to an alt corp. Leading to no targets to remove from the ganking scene. This MUST be fixed! This mixture of exploits and just downright unbalanced crap is already killing the game! The trouble with Fix4 is the question: should lo-sec be more profitable than 0.0? A while ago I proposed that it shouldn't but that there should be some service or commodity that can only be obtained in lo-sec. Make this "unobtanium" thinly and widely distributed to discourage alliance camping and give people a genuine reason to go in to lo-sec. At the moment, lo-sec is worse than NPC 0.0, and NPC 0.0 isn't very good. The real problem is that Hi-sec is too profitable. The fact is, and I know because I do it, I can make more running L4 missions than I can in 0.0. Yes, faction spawns, etc., Very nice: But factor in the safety element, and the profit over time from hi-sec missioning is better and more reliable. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:36:00 - [321] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Johnny ReeRee The deck is completely stacked for the gankbear, who gets to operate in complete safety and no fear of any consequence whatever. Originally by: Sendraks The deck is completely stacked in favour of the would be victims. Completely wrong! After today you will never convince me that transport had a chance in heck of repulsing that gank. Please stop spreading wrong info. Originally by: Sendraks Transport expensive goods in ships that cannot be easily ganked. If it costs more to gank you in hi-sec than is gained from stealing your stuff, then the gank isn't worth it. The ego points and laughs ought to be worth it. However that has been stepped aside in favor of "gank for bank" the transports are easy targets to get serious bank off of with alt accounts. Exploits galore. Originally by: Sendraks If people would stop whining and instead apply their brains to flying ships which offer appropriate security for the goods carried, then this "problem" wouldn't exist to the extent it does. An extent which is limited at best anyway. Limited? Do you call ganks happening all over EVE limited? Have you logged in and spent any time traveling in EVE? Remember I walked RIGHT into one and the results were crazy. (Good thing I was just a shuttle doing sightseeing) The transport pilot stood no chance at all. With their amassed loot and experience they are equipping better and more able quipped gank ships. On top of that they are forming better groups and plans that will soon counter alot of these methods of supposedly safer transport. Even good hardened transports will soon start to drop like flies. Originally by: Sendraks Hi-sec ganking is not broken. Um, Yes it is. And so much so that it can ruin the game. When Hi-sec ganking makes over 20 million per pop... Its really broken. Rember it ought to be ego points and laughs. Originally by: Sendraks The victims have all the advantages if they think about it. They have thought about it. Every advantage these slow undefended ships have are quickly negated by the gankers. Originally by: Sendraks However, the victims are typically stupid people. What a horrid generalization. Shame on you! What on earth do you think these people are doing? Fishing with bush while their transports are being ganked? Originally by: Sendraks The gankers capitalise on the stupidity of others. I see little need to make a big paragraph so ill make it a couple of lines. #1 Refer to response above. Havn't caught any big bass I guess... #2 Gankers capitalize on exploits. Note the defense of the grand exploit of insurance for ganking. Originally by: Sendraks Solution: don't be stupid. Has it worked? no Common man!
Lucre STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:03:00 - [322] Whilst I normally have little sympathy for empire gankers, the fact is as many have stated that the mechanisms are there to avoid losses using tougher ships, whether blockade runners, DSTs or even BCs/BSs. Don't carry an expensive cargo in a cheap ship. However, where this falls down is freighters. There is no Deep Space Freighter or Blockade Runner Freighter or even Battle Freighter. If you need to haul 750k m3 of stuff then you're stuck with a slow-aligning, slow-warping, untankable expensive target. And there is no "better ship" to use instead. So please CCP, one or more of: a) Speed up Concord response / Nuke drones so suicide freighter ganking doesn't work. b) Let us tank freighters - add low slots with 1000% cpu penalty for cargo expanders, nanos, i-stabs, warp-stabs or overdrives? c) Introduce some combat freighters - say 400k cargo but faster, more agile and much much tougher.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:10:00 - [323] Originally by: Zachstar Completely wrong! After today you will never convince me that transport had a chance in heck of repulsing that gank. Please stop spreading wrong info. What sort of transport are you talking about here? Are you talking a tech 1 p.o.s or a tech 2 vessel, well fitted, with escorts and scouts? Originally by: Zachstar The ego points and laughs ought to be worth it. However that has been stepped aside in favor of "gank for bank" the transports are easy targets to get serious bank off of with alt accounts. Exploits galore. A tech 1 hauler with veldspar or similar worthless junk on it is hardly worth the time for someone to suicide attack. If a player is transporting tens of millions worth of ISK in a poorly defended ship, then yes the pay off for the ganker is going to be good. If the player is transporting ten of millions worth of isk in a well defended vessel, where it will require a hard hitting vessel, or number thereof, to destroy, then odds are the gankers stand to lose more than they gain. It is simple math. Originally by: Zachstar Limited? Do you call ganks happening all over EVE limited? Have you logged in and spent any time traveling in EVE? Remember I walked RIGHT into one and the results were crazy. (Good thing I was just a shuttle doing sightseeing) The transport pilot stood no chance at all. They are not happening all over Eve with any frequency at all. Heck, I've played for long enough and travelled around the hi sec prime spots for this sort of activity often enough and have still not seen once incidence of this. But then, maybe this is because I don't make myself a target? Originally by: Zachstar With their amassed loot and experience they are equipping better and more able quipped gank ships. On top of that they are forming better groups and plans that will soon counter alot of these methods of supposedly safer transport. Even good hardened transports will soon start to drop like flies. Only at considerable cost to the gankers. There is a point where it costs too much for this to viable. Most gank vessels are disposable, cheaply fitted, craft, because they WILL be destroyed once they attack. A well hardened and escorted vessel stands a good chance escaping such an attack unless there are a lot of attacker (at which point the payofff is dubious) and if the transport is escorted, an even better chance. Originally by: Zachstar Um, Yes it is. And so much so that it can ruin the game. When Hi-sec ganking makes over 20 million per pop... Its really broken. Rember it ought to be ego points and laughs. Don't carry anything worth over 20million in an easily popped vessel? No profit, means its not worthwhile. Originally by: Zachstar They have thought about it. Every advantage these slow undefended ships have are quickly negated by the gankers. Rubbish. Pretty much all the whines on these forums are from people who were transporting expensive goods in a tech 1 p.o.s hauler, with no escort and no scout. They made themselves a target. Originally by: Zachstar What a horrid generalization. Shame on you! What on earth do you think these people are doing? Fishing with bush while their transports are being ganked? I think they're moving expensive goods in vessels that are really easy for someone to pop. I've read on the forums about people moving T2 BPOs in tech 1 haulers. No two ways about it. That. Is. Stupid. Originally by: Zachstar Has it worked? no Works for me and many others. Don't make yourself a target. Check routes beforehand if transporting expensive goods. Use a vessel appropriate for the task. If you don't do this, use a crappy hauler, no escort, no scout and you get caught out, you have only yourself to blame.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:14:00 - [324] Originally by: Lucre b) Let us tank freighters - add low slots with 1000% cpu penalty for cargo expanders, nanos, i-stabs, warp-stabs or overdrives? Is it not possible to remote rep a freighter? I would have thought for anyone moving an expensive vessel with expensive cargo that can't rep itself, would be to have a few repping vessels on hand to help it tank. Then an appropriate escort of combat craft to deal with aggressors.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:19:00 - [325] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Lucre b) Let us tank freighters - add low slots with 1000% cpu penalty for cargo expanders, nanos, i-stabs, warp-stabs or overdrives? Is it not possible to remote rep a freighter? I would have thought for anyone moving an expensive vessel with expensive cargo that can't rep itself, would be to have a few repping vessels on hand to help it tank. Then an appropriate escort of combat craft to deal with aggressors. So every time a big move of product goes around it needs to move as a fleet? So if that is the case.. Why do we need Concord?
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:20:00 - [326] The solution is to fly smart when you're carrying lots of valuables.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:24:00 - [327] Originally by: Zachstar So every time a big move of product goes around it needs to move as a fleet? So if that is the case. Yes! Yes! and thrice Yes! Honestly, what do you think is game is about? If you want to move expensive stuff around in a frieghter, you should be co-ordinating with your corp to ensure that this happens with appropriate security. If you want to do everything solo, then you will fall foul of those players who work co-operatively against you. Originally by: Zachstar Why do we need Concord? They are not there to stop you getting attacked. They are not there to help you survive. It is up to the player, to plan and prepare for attacks. In short, players shouldn't come crying here that Concord did not do the job that the player should have done.
Strife Phoenix Acerbus Vindictum	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:25:00 - [328] Totally unsigned. Only way to wreak havoc amongst the macroers.. ACERBUS-VINDICTUM - Revelare Pecunia!
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:38:00 - [329] Do not compare it to real life. You don't have ships and the police has nothing to do with CONCORD!! Now for a RP point of view is perfect, you die you get a clone. You die get in a new clone and make some money = PROFIT!! So stfu, ganking freighters doesn't happen everywere I see hundreds of freighters that are not ganked. Ganking a freighter takes some skill, especially some organising skills, if not we would see it done all over!
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:48:00 - [330] Edited by: Zachstar on 21/09/2007 10:48:28 Originally by: Strife Phoenix Totally unsigned. Only way to wreak havoc amongst the macroers.. So kill the dog to get rid of the cancer?

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 10:53:00 - [331] Edited by: Zachstar on 21/09/2007 10:55:43 Originally by: Red Desire Do not compare it to real life. You don't have ships and the police has nothing to do with CONCORD!! Now for a RP point of view is perfect, you die you get a clone. You die get in a new clone and make some money = PROFIT!! So stfu, ganking freighters doesn't happen everywere I see hundreds of freighters that are not ganked. Ganking a freighter takes some skill, especially some organising skills, if not we would see it done all over! Thats not a very good post. #1 Concord is there to keep the peace just like real police do. What they don't seem to do yet is have "cases" where the alts and fools that do gank get recognized and attacked by Concord and soon as they leave station again. I shall compare it to real police cause that is exactly what concord is. #2 That clone stuff aint making much since. #3 No you arent seeing it ALL over yet. but what you mention is getting into play alot faster than you think. And ganking these ships isnt that hard at all I found out today. It will get much worse pretty soon here if not stopped. #4 STFU is so childish talk man.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 11:45:00 - [332] Originally by: Zachstar #1 Concord is there to keep the peace just like real police do. What they don't seem to do yet is have "cases" where the alts and fools that do gank get recognized and attacked by Concord and soon as they leave station again. I shall compare it to real police cause that is exactly what concord is. How on earth is Concord supposed to keep track of alts? Thats crazy. Originally by: Zachstar ##2 That clone stuff aint making much since. Makes as much sense as any analogy in this thread comparing Eve to real life. Originally by: Zachstar ###3 No you arent seeing it ALL over yet. but what you mention is getting into play alot faster than you think. And ganking these ships isnt that hard at all I found out today. Ganking tech 1 ships is not hard. Simple solution...don't move expensive stuff in tech 1 ships. Originally by: Zachstar ###It will get much worse pretty soon here if not stopped. You talk as if this is new. It's not.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 11:47:00 - [333] I, the undersigned, think the frieghter community should stop moaning and start investing in some escort. furthermore, GTFOOJ, thats where it happens the most. What do people do zhen the criminals start to take over their stuff? gangs running the streets? MANIFEST DESTINY, HEAD OUTWARDS AND UPWARDS! you should too. signed: Cornu. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Dragon Lord Caldari InQuest Ascension R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:21:00 - [334] The only thing id change is if your killed by concord your insurance is invalidated and if your alts loot the left over wreak they are flagged to the ganked pilot and this gang. Other than that high sec has never been safe and dont think just because you are allowed to shoot back, you shoud, as i found out in my noob days shotting a flagging player can get you killed very easily. If you realy want to ensure that you are very hard to kill in high sec, fly your frieghter with a gang of logistic ships, concord dont kill you for repping a gang mates armour and shields as far as i know anyway. I thik this does flag you to the attacking gang, but concord will be on its way to kill them so i dont thik they will have time to kill your logistics support.
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:29:00 - [335] Agreed on the insurance thing.
Pheonix Kanan Caldari Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:36:00 - [336] You can't remove insurance from CONCORD for the simple fact of human error. Let's say you mis-click and lock a station during wartime and get CONCORDed? Should he get his insurance money? Say he mis-clicked during a lag spike? There are just too many other factors that come into play when you consider all of the facts. Not to mention, if you wanted to allow the game to separate mistake from intention would require an EXTREME amount of coding that I wouldn't want to put the devs through (or they could put a big, fat, hairy guy in your room to watch you while you play ). Originally by: Curzon Dax shrugs Play the game the way you want to, and respect other peoples' ability to do the same.
Tenerhaddi Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.09.21 12:48:00 - [337] Originally by: Pheonix Kanan You can't remove insurance from CONCORD for the simple fact of human error. Let's say you mis-click and lock a station during wartime and get CONCORDed? Should he get his insurance money? Say he mis-clicked during a lag spike? There are just too many other factors that come into play when you consider all of the facts. Not to mention, if you wanted to allow the game to separate mistake from intention would require an EXTREME amount of coding that I wouldn't want to put the devs through (or they could put a big, fat, hairy guy in your room to watch you while you play ). Easy ways to avoid this not have them showing up in over view! If they click it and fire before confirming there target then tuff! Play smarter than a noob then. simple Locking check wrong target relock right target fire!! simple. Only time i***ed up when i was **ed up! ---------------- http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1771556
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:44:00 - [338] Originally by: Cornucopian I, the undersigned, think the frieghter community should stop moaning and start investing in some escort. furthermore, GTFOOJ, thats where it happens the most. What do people do zhen the criminals start to take over their stuff? gangs running the streets? MANIFEST DESTINY, HEAD OUTWARDS AND UPWARDS! you should too. signed: Cornu. Ok..um like wrong Thats like saying the armored cars that transport gold from banks ought to have tanks alongside as they go from place to place. Seems the armored car is to filled to hold any kind of defense against the roving gangs. Please stop and think about how the EVE economy works and how ganking works before you respond.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 13:53:00 - [339] How on earth is Concord supposed to keep track of alts? Thats crazy. Nah, No need to write that much code and lag stuff. Keep it simple and simply have concord destroy the loot with what? Like 2 shots? BTW this is only for if a Concord ship is within range (Or a station turret) A super well planned gank could still get some loot in before it gets blasted I guess. Seriously! Once CCP takes such an action you are going to be surprised how quickly everything returns to normal again. Ganks will continue! but they will be for LoL wtfpwned! and not a cheap unbalanced source of bank.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:01:00 - [340] Edited by: Sendraks on 21/09/2007 14:01:46 Originally by: Zachstar Nah, No need to write that much code and lag stuff. Keep it simple and simply have concord destroy the loot with what? Like 2 shots? BTW this is only for if a Concord ship is within range (Or a station turret) A super well planned gank could still get some loot in before it gets blasted I guess. Why? Why do this. It makes not sense. Why would concord destroy cargo? Basically all you're doing is directly punishing those players who can be bothered to plan hi-sec piracy and indirectly punishing those players who have put in the time and effort to avoid being the victims of such behaviour. There is no good reason for what you're proposing. You're pandering to lazy malcontents who don't want to make any effort and be able to afk round hi-sec in a ship that has all the protection of tissue paper with millions of ISK in the hold. Originally by: Zachstar [Seriously! Once CCP takes such an action you are going to be surprised how quickly everything returns to normal again. Ganks will continue! but they will be for LoL wtfpwned! and not a cheap unbalanced source of bank. Seriously! Once players pull their heads out their asses, stop whining and stop flying poorly protected ships with hugely valuable cargo inside them, you are going to be surprised how quickly everything will return to normal. Ganks will continue! but they will be for LoL wtfpwned! and not a cheap unbalanced source of bank.

Khamal Jolstien Caldari Lucky Hydra Corp SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:07:00 - [341] Threads like this are pretty disappointing. Why is it that people would rather change the game for everyone, rather than play it the way it was intended. It's HIGH-security, not PERFECT-security. Just because you have been unable to adapt, either through ignorance (only a valid excuse the first time), or through pure laziness (not fitting defensive modules), does not mean everyone else should suddenly mold to your version of the game. If you weren't such an inviting target, you would not get attacked. Either that, or you pay the Darwin tax.
Nicho Void Gallente Hyper-Nova	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:12:00 - [342] Twelve pages? We feel that this dribble has to go on for twelve pages? Here, I'll summarize it for all of you: Argument 1: In the real world, cops wouldn't just let you get killed like that! Argument 2: Cops don't provide safety! You ******* noob! Rebuttal 1: At the very least, they wouldn't let your friends loot the body! Rebuttal 2: Bodies get robbed right after a kill all the time! Stupid Fix 1: Make high sec safe! Stupid Fix 2: Get rid of high sec all together! etc, etc, etc. Honestly, everything you have to say, has already been said on page 3, or in an earlier thread. Let it die. ---------------
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:31:00 - [343] Why? Why do this. It makes not sense. Why would concord destroy cargo? To save CCP from having to code mountains of code for them to do otherwise to deny almost wide open loot to the exploiting alts. Plain and simple. No need to make it any more advanced. Basically all you're doing is directly punishing those players who can be bothered to plan hi-sec piracy and indirectly punishing those players who have put in the time and effort to avoid being the victims of such behaviour. Punishing? Bothered? What bother is it when you do a little work to get a boatload of cash you diddn't earn and used an exploit to get? And then exploited to get away from the wardec afterwards? Whoever got prepared for this (You cant basicly) somehow will simply rollback it or hold onto the protection from ego pushing ganks that cant steal their cargo in hisec. There is no good reason for what you're proposing. You're pandering to lazy malcontents who don't want to make any effort and be able to afk round hi-sec in a ship that has all the protection of tissue paper with millions of ISK in the hold. There are tons of good reasons mentioned and explained in tons of posts here. Try laying off the insults and think for a few and maybe you can understand some. It matters little if you are AFK or not. The gankers still have PLENTY of time on the other side of the gate to take you down. You will just be there to witness their payday yourself. There is little to nothing you can do to stop them in hisec. Seriously! Once players pull their heads out their asses, stop whining and stop flying poorly protected ships with hugely valuable cargo inside them, Ass, whine, moan, b****, etc.. yall just keep the insults flying and the malinfo flowing and you will hold onto your precious ganking. Is that yall's mindset? Hopefully others wont be bothered by such filth.
WhatAmI	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:34:00 - [344] Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 21/09/2007 10:48:28 Originally by: Strife Phoenix Totally unsigned. Only way to wreak havoc amongst the macroers.. So kill the dog to get rid of the cancer? I should have thought of this before...
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:41:00 - [345] Threads like this are pretty disappointing. Why is it that people would rather change the game for everyone, rather than play it the way it was intended. Are you kidding? When the insults and desperation arent being thrown around.. Threads like this are PERFECT examples of the community taking back the game from problems and discussing viable solutions. Giving CCP GRAND insight into the community thoughts on issues! The gankers found the exploit and changed the game. It was them who started this junk. Not us... It's HIGH-security, not PERFECT-security. Just because you have been unable to adapt, either through ignorance (only a valid excuse the first time), or through pure laziness (not fitting defensive modules), does not mean everyone else should suddenly mold to your version of the game. This shows your rather lack of understanding of the situation. You are one of those that seems to be in the conservative camp who worries about what trickle down effects a nerf will cause. What I am asking for isn't some super change thats going to cause the gate to open back or something... It's simply a call to return the game to a state where we don't have such an exploit able to be used to change and ruin the game. It't not a mold to anything except a rollback. If you weren't such an inviting target, you would not get attacked. That is EXACTLY what I've been proposing to do! Have Concord blast the loot so that the only invite they will get is from ego pushing gankers wanting to add billions in damage to their killboards. The LoL factor and fun returns! Either that, or you pay the Darwin tax. Well for now its the "gank-for-bank" tax as I call it.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:51:00 - [346] Originally by: Zachstar To save CCP from having to code mountains of code for them to do otherwise to deny almost wide open loot to the exploiting alts. Plain and simple. No need to make it any more advanced. But there is no need for any code or changes in the first place. This has been explained innumerable times already. Originally by: Zachstar Punishing? Bothered? What bother is it when you do a little work to get a boatload of cash you diddn't earn and used an exploit to get? Why can't you be bothered to protect what you earned? if you can't be bothered to protect it, why should CCP have to do it for you? Originally by: Zachstar Whoever got prepared for this (You cant basicly) somehow will simply rollback it or hold onto the protection from ego pushing ganks that cant steal their cargo in hisec. Of course you can prepare for this, it has already been stated how. Originally by: Zachstar There are tons of good reasons mentioned and explained in tons of posts here. Try laying off the insults and think for a few and maybe you can understand some. There are no good reasons. Everything that players can do to stop being the victims of hi-sec gate ganks is the game already. You are stuidously ignoring this point. Originally by: Zachstar It matters little if you are AFK or not. It matters a huge amount actually. Originally by: Zachstar The gankers still have PLENTY of time on the other side of the gate to take you down. If you are flying the right ship with the right fitting, they won't. Originally by: Zachstar You will just be there to witness their payday yourself. There is little to nothing you can do to stop them in hisec. Are you in denial here or something? Are you not reading what people are writing here. The means to prevent yourself becoming a victim of a hi-sec gate gank are in the game already. If you don't want to take the precautions, then it is your own fault. Originally by: Zachstar Ass, whine, moan, b****, etc.. yall just keep the insults flying and the malinfo flowing and you will hold onto your precious ganking. Is that yall's mindset? Hopefully others wont be bothered by such filth. You are not listening. This is a fix/chnage. that does not need to be made. The solutions are in game already.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.21 14:51:00 - [347] The number of alts in here is startling. Suicide attacks are not an exploit. Evading Concord to destroy a ship in high sec is, and there are examples of this recently where CCP have plugged this hole, yet no change has been made to the ability to sacrifice one's ships for the opportunity of a greater prize. There is no such thing as safe space. If you don't like that, I'll happily have what's left of your stuff. As for "time" on the other side of the gate, this can be negated with the use of a webber ship. So allow me to repeat myself: Suicide attacks are not an exploit, so adapt or die. Hardpoint Rigs
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:11:00 - [348] But there is no need for any code or changes in the first place. This has been explained innumerable times already. Um no they haven't There is a great need to fix this issue and the change is simple. Need + Simplicity = Fix (Well hopefully) Why can't you be bothered to protect what you earned? if you can't be bothered to protect it, why should CCP have to do it for you? Cause you can't protect it properly as of yet! And what you are asking is that every transport have some uber screen around it that will make eve look like some military parade every time someone is ready to sell. Its not cool at all! Stop it. Of course you can prepare for this, it has already been stated how. No it hasn't You can't defend against a average gank run period. What do you propose? Have an empty ship in your screen that runs in and grabs the loot first? but then what about another ship to grab that ships loot? And so on and SO ON. There are no good reasons. Everything that players can do to stop being the victims of hi-sec gate ganks is the game already. You are stuidously ignoring this point. No I am not. Any ideas about how to defend against a reasonable gank attack are shabby and depend on them making mistakes at best. And stop with this thought that these transfers need screens to protect them in hisec! Its not right period! Only the president and high office members have screens of armed people covering them as they ride on the streets of cities. Its unreasonable to expect transports to be convoys in secure space just to prevent a ganker from getting rich. *(Afk/NonAFK)* It matters a huge amount actually. Click Click Click Scramble/Web/Gank What are you going to do? Scream? Throw your moniter at the wall? Just in case you are about to say W20 do not forget that these transports take time to align after they appear on the OTHER side. Enough for click click click with a reasonable attack. If you are flying the right ship with the right fitting, they won't. Ok lets get the economy running on shuttles and frigs for transport then. Are you in denial here or something? Are you not reading what people are writing here. The means to prevent yourself becoming a victim of a hi-sec gate gank are in the game already. If you don't want to take the precautions, then it is your own fault. There is no effective solution I am tired of having to say this over and over again. The way things are now. On top of that why must the transports suddenly have to be ninjas in hisec space? Why must they sweat and spare every second to avoid roving gangs of gankers that have a much better chance to gank you than not? Talk about changing the game for others! You talk of a sizeable chunk having to radicly change their methods in secure space. These are methods they ought to be taking in 0.4 and lower! You are not listening.** Sorry but I have to listen to such bull so I don't get accused of not reading posts correctly. So when yall post such filth I have to read it. Things suck sometimes This is a fix/chnage. that does not need to be made. The solutions are in game already. Sure that solution is in the game already. The death of the economy as more and more go into VERY VERY profitable low training gank and less into manufacture and mine. Like I said there was a 3rd solution that nobody ought to want.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:20:00 - [349] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos The number of alts in here is startling. Suicide attacks are not an exploit. Evading Concord to destroy a ship in high sec is, and there are examples of this recently where CCP have plugged this hole, yet no change has been made to the ability to sacrifice one's ships for the opportunity of a greater prize. There is no such thing as safe space. If you don't like that, I'll happily have what's left of your stuff. As for "time" on the other side of the gate, this can be negated with the use of a webber ship. So allow me to repeat myself: Suicide attacks are not an exploit, so adapt or die. No they are not an exploit. The fact that they can use an alt to get the loot extremely easily and alt corp away when they get wardeced is 100 percent grade A exploit. To continue allowing such will only encourage other exploits to be blown wide open like this one which will slowly start to degrade EVE. I will not just stand by and adapt while such an exploit leads to ruin of the EVE economy. However if it isn't fixed you can well expect me to join on in to get in on the last of the fun before it all dies. The fix is simple! To get assistance from concord your wreck (not pod) and loot will be fired upon and blown to dust to discourage others from profiting on activity that is in violation of the law.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:25:00 - [350] To anyone still thinking I am trying to shutdown hisec ganking. I am not. All I want is the ability to make astounding amounts of money and avoid the consequences be shut down... Afterwards if someone has a good or funny/ego reason to blow millions or billions worth of ship you got to take the other guys millions/billions and convert them into floating dust has my approval and request to post the video on youtube with quality Teamspeak mixed on in! When a gank happens everything must be turned to dust. (Except pod) Not survive to grow a problem.

Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:33:00 - [351] Quote: No they are not an exploit. The fact that they can use an alt to get the loot extremely easily and alt corp away when they get wardeced is 100 percent grade A exploit. It's only an exploit if they evade wardecs repeatedly. Considering that a wardec is pocket change even towards an alliance, you simply wardec their second corporation and if they duck out of that, petition. You have them bang to rights. Quote: To continue allowing such will only encourage other exploits to be blown wide open like this one which will slowly start to degrade EVE. Finding holes seems to be somewhat human nature, for want of better terminology. Do you not think it as bad that a pirate can use an alt character to buy everything they like in space from which they are prohibited? Evidently CCP don't, as they've never stopped that either - and that's been going on as long as suicide attacks have, if not longer. The only difference is the degree of profit involved. Quote: I will not just stand by and adapt while such an exploit leads to ruin of the EVE economy. There you go referring to this as an exploit again... Quote: However if it isn't fixed you can well expect me to join on in to get in on the last of the fun before it all dies. Then join in the fun! If this was a problem CCP felt needed fixing, they would have never allowed freighters to deposit their load in space in the first place. As I said, suicide attacks have been around as long as the game itself and are a viable tactic. Quote: The fix is simple! To get assistance from concord your wreck (not pod) and loot will be fired upon and blown to dust to discourage others from profiting on activity that is in violation of the law. This idea is frankly preposterous. Profit is the sole motivator in this game, and you seek to annihilate a playstyle presumably for your own end - trying to pretend you "don't mind" whether people suicide themselves for profit or not is utterly disingenuous. Hardpoint Rigs
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:37:00 - [352] Originally by: Zachstar Um no they haven't Yes it has. Do not move expensive stuff around in tech 1 ships by yourself. Tech 2 transports + escorts and/or scouts are the answer. Originally by: Zachstar There is a great need to fix this issue and the change is simple. See above, the solutions are already in game. Are you now going to tell me that these don't work? Do you have any idea how durable and/or manouverable these vessels are? Originally by: Zachstar Cause you can't protect it properly as of yet! Yes you can. Originally by: Zachstar And what you are asking is that every transport have some uber screen around it that will make eve look like some military parade every time someone is ready to sell. Its not cool at all! Stop it. So basically, the entire thrust of your argument is that you think that players should be able to move round billions of isk in crappy tech 1 ships at no risk at all? That isn't how Eve works. Originally by: Zachstar No it hasn't You can't defend against a average gank run period. The average gank is not going to take down a tech 2 transport. The average gank is not going to take down a tech 2 transport with a scout that spots the gank on the other side of the gate. The average gank is not going to take down someone moving t2 BPOs in a properly fitted BS. Originally by: Zachstar No I am not. Any ideas about how to defend against a reasonable gank attack are shabby and depend on them making mistakes at best. Do you actually have any understanding of tech 2 transports or how to fit them? Originally by: Zachstar And stop with this thought that these transfers need screens to protect them in hisec! Its not right period! Of course it is right. This is a multiplayer game. You have something really valuable to move, you make sure it is protected. Originally by: Zachstar Click Click Click Scramble/Web/Gankquote] When I've been caught in low sec by a gate camp in a tech 1 hauler, I didn't survive by just randomly clicking warp to go to my next gate. Any player worth their salt knows what measures to undertake to avoid getting nabbed at a gate. They ain't foolproof, but they give you a fighting chance. If they give you a fighting chance in low sec/0.0, they do even more in hi-sec. Originally by: Zachstar Just in case you are about to say W20 do not forget that these transports take time to align after they appear on the OTHER side. Enough for click click click with a reasonable attack. Two things. 1) your fitting counts for a lot here. A tech 2 transport well fitted can either evade fire completely or survive long enough with a decent tank for concord to turn up. 2) You align to the nearest warpable object the requires the least alignment. Plus a hauler fitted properly can align surprisingly quickly. Originally by: Zachstar On top of that why must the transports suddenly have to be ninjas in hisec space? Why must they sweat and spare every second to avoid roving gangs of gankers that have a much better chance to gank you than not? Why? if you have hundreds of millions of ISK in your cargo hold then you are a prime target. Of course you should be sweating it. Originally by: Zachstar You talk of a sizeable chunk having to radicly change their methods in secure space. I really don't think this applies to a sizeable chunk of the playerbase at all, just the few who put cargo that costs too much in the hold of a tech 1 ship. Originally by: Zachstar Sure that solution is in the game already. The death of the economy as more and more go into VERY VERY profitable low training gank and less into manufacture and mine. Like I said there was a 3rd solution that nobody ought to want. Hi-sec ganking has been going on for a long time now. The economy doesn't seem to be dying and people happily move millions through hi-sec all the time. The people who do it happily are those who don't leave themselves vulnerable to hi-sec gate ganks.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:58:00 - [353] Wooboy Can I fit everything into one post on this load of something? We must find out! It's only an exploit if they evade wardecs repeatedly. Considering that a wardec is pocket change even towards an alliance, you simply wardec their second corporation and if they duck out of that, petition. You have them bang to rights. quite hard to detect swaps you know when an alt stays behind as the CEO of a corp that is never active during the dec. All the alt has to say is his members jumped ship after wardec. Nothing less that lack of profit is gonna fix this issue. Finding holes seems to be somewhat human nature, for want of better terminology. Do you not think it as bad that a pirate can use an alt character to buy everything they like in space from which they are prohibited? Evidently CCP don't, as they've never stopped that either - and that's been going on as long as suicide attacks have, if not longer. The only difference is the degree of profit involved. It is just as bad but I can see how difficult it can be to prevent alts from buying stuff in hisec as you say. It is much more simple to fix this alt building issue by not giving them reason to constantly build alts to grab mega millions in profit. Let concord blast the loot! Problem solved. There you go referring to this as an exploit again... Then join in the fun! If this was a problem CCP felt needed fixing, they would have never allowed freighters to deposit their load in space in the first place. As I said, suicide attacks have been around as long as the game itself and are a viable tactic. I will not participate in the exploit! Not while there is a good chance that CCP will fix this and allow everything to get back to normal. Tho now that you mention it I had this kind of dumbed down version idea. What if you could buy a simple module that has only the single job of turning your wreck and loot into dust in the event you get blasted? Then you give the transports just one slot that they can use to drop that in with. (With uber low requirements of course! 1cpu and 1power and uses 1 cap) This isnt a very good solution if you ask me. I say concord ought to do the job for ya and keep the ganking to ego build/bust This idea is frankly preposterous. Profit is the sole motivator in this game, and you seek to annihilate a playstyle presumably for your own end - trying to pretend you "don't mind" whether people suicide themselves for profit or not is utterly disingenuous. It is not disigenuous to propose such! What is, is this constant defense that states that these transports must accept that they are screwed and they must adapt to being robbed silly by alts after the show is over. What is the point of even having hisec when you cant even go after these guys without getting concorded? Atleast in lowsec you could go after the pirates after argo if you accepted the status drop. GAH too many posts so little time. Any other reasonable people want to continue where I left off? Let concord blast the loot! Remove insurance for concord kills! Let the gankings continue!
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.09.21 15:59:00 - [354] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Ilya Murametz So to sum it all up, the only sensible thing to do would be to remove insurance pay out for the ship lost due to acts of crime in high sec at least or ships lost to Concord. With that said, i'm not a programmer so I do not know how hard that would be to implement or if it's even possible. Suicide gate attacks are not a big problem and this solution would affect far more players than those bothered by suicide attacks in hi-sec. I imagine the effects on CCPs petition queue would be substantial. I don't see why. Simple code: If player A shoot on player B and Sec >=0.5 then player A insurance payout = void. Simple. Don't see how that would affect any other queue.
Ozmodan Minmatar Knights Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:10:00 - [355] Well I have to agree it is definitely broken, but then again most pvp in empire is broken from my point of view. Take for example someone steals ore from you while you are in a gang, the thief only flags to you instead of your entire gang or corp, how ridiculous. As to a solution, much care should be taken, to prevent making it too safe. I completely support the no insurance if you anger concord, can't believe CCP has ignored the most obvious change needed. Learners permit still current
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:32:00 - [356] I realy agree with the orginal poster that the suicide gank has got to be stooped. I'm really tried of sending haulers, cruisers, and even transport ships through empire in high security and having them popped by non-war targets. 0.0 to .4 systems sure.. if you go auto pilot or send a hauler through there thats the chance you take. But .5 to 1.0 systems you should be safe from all but war targets. Futhermore anytime concord pops a ship there should be no insurance payout. -John
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:34:00 - [357] Originally by: John Blackthorn But .5 to 1.0 systems you should be safe from all but war targets. Why?
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:38:00 - [358] Escort haulers and freighters all the time? Have you ever wanted to to get together a gang and drive alongside a freighter in empire? in .4 to 0.0 sure.. but in empire? Heck, my transport ship was popped in a .6 by a geddon the other day. It happened so fast no amount of repair could have saved the transport and I had plate + extender + resists and he got me on warp out.
Leipoi Gallente Joint Espionage and Defence Industries	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:44:00 - [359] Edited by: Leipoi on 21/09/2007 16:44:26 Iv never been ganked in High-sec,but i do plan on getting a freighter in the next little while to help support my industrialist career and to help out my corp in logistics also.It seems to me that most of the people who argue in favor of being able to suicide-gank are being rather hypocritical of the whole thing."high-sec" doesnt mean safe-sec...blah blah blah....of course the suicide gankers rely on the idea of high-sec being safe...or they wouldnt be able to plan the attack,nor ly in wait to pik out their next target.With the added benefit of planning on losing whatever ships they bring.The defender has zero advantage at all. Sure i understand the concept of "dont use what you cant afford to lose"...a trader cant afford to lose anything....thats kinda the point of what ppl are saying here i think.No matter what is done,the suicide-gankers "force" loss onto the industrialist/trader style of player.Either throu RL time by using a ship that obviously is inferior to what is actually req'd.Time lost in training skills to use a ship the suicide-gankers deem for them to be the ship they should be using...why would someone who has no intention of running in low sec train up transport ship skills.Obviously to gain the most benefit they would need to train to lvl5. It would seem that if you intend to be a industrialist or trader in any serious manner,your decisions of ship,cargo and routes have been planned out for you by the suicide-gankers....check all of the posts on this manner,to summarize..."if you want to be safe in high-sec...this is what you will HAVE to do.." Has anyone actually ever tried to succesfully defend a freighter,even if in a simulated excercise to see what would be neccesary to defend against various amounts of BS's.From what iv been reading,it basically wouldnt be possible,is this true?If not what would it take?...and for the suicide-gankers,another question..why do you reserve the right to dictate the manner of transport to be used by small corps,individual players. When a group of players can dictate to another type of player,that would seem to fall within a form of grieving,blackmail at the very least.You decide..this is from the EUlA. 12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Though every effort is made to avoid glitches that enable exploits to be used, they are occasionally discovered. Players have the responsibility of understanding how the game works and keeping themselves informed about changes to the game in order to comprehend what is deemed as an exploit. Those who are charged with employing the use of exploits will be reprimanded, which may include temporary suspension or a permanent ban of the account. Professing ignorance that you didnÆt know you were using an exploit will not prevent the enforcement of this rule. 12.11 What is grief play? A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making othersÆ lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize other players. This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:10:00 - [360] As per the definition above me, suicide attacks are not an exploit. They have been around as long as there has been valuable cargo and concord, and considering I have never heard of a single ban and that this has not been changed in any way I think that settles what CCP currently think on this. Please though, step in at any time and correct me if you're "in the know". If you're not, please stop declaring that this is an exploit. It makes about as much sense as me declaring it an exploit that all those juicy freighters don't spend more time in lowsec where I can kill them! Quote: What if you could buy a simple module that has only the single job of turning your wreck and loot into dust in the event you get blasted? It's called the self-destruct button: Nothing survives. If there's one change I would support, it's the ability to self destruct your own ship in a reasonable length of time. As it stands, only heavily tanked battleships/battlecruisers and capitals can ever make use of this feature. Reduce the timer to 5 seconds, and much of this issue would go away without any significant changes being required. Hardpoint Rigs

Solid Trust Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2007.09.21 18:44:00 - [361] I know nothing about freighters, but all other type of ganking is fine. With a half a brain you will not get ganked and still move items worth hundreds of millions of isk. Just calculate how many ships it would take to kill you plus the fact that have of your cargo gets destroyed and you will have a good idea how much you can haul. If you are moving billions then you can afford to have some backup/support. And I don't have a lot of sympathy for those will billions to move around.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:51:00 - [362] What's hilarious is all the 0.0 alliance people whining about empire suicide ganks. Perfect examples of deep-space carebears.
Leeluvv Caldari The Black Ops	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:54:00 - [363] 1. It takes 5 1/2 hours to have a trial character capable of flying a Caracal with Heavy Missiles. 2. It takes 3 or 4 trial characters in Caracals to gank an Industrial and a normal char to collect the loot. 3. The losses are so small after insurance payouts that any Industrial worth 50 Million or above is a suitable target. 4. Warping to zero makes it harder, but not impossible to gank 5. The only deterrent is a protecting ship that will destroy the hauler when it loots the cargo. It will not stop the gank and the loss of the ship, the mods or some of the cargo when it blows up. 6. There are gates in Empire that are nearly perma-camped by gankers. Lee == Sig to follow
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:58:00 - [364] Originally by: Leeluvv 1. It takes 5 1/2 hours to have a trial character capable of flying a Caracal with Heavy Missiles. 2. It takes 3 or 4 trial characters in Caracals to gank an Industrial and a normal char to collect the loot. 3. The losses are so small after insurance payouts that any Industrial worth 50 Million or above is a suitable target. Don't haul 50 mil in an industrial that can be ganked by a handful of newbie caracals. Quote: 4. Warping to zero makes it harder, but not impossible to gank 5. The only deterrent is a protecting ship that will destroy the hauler when it loots the cargo. It will not stop the gank and the loss of the ship, the mods or some of the cargo when it blows up. 6. There are gates in Empire that are nearly perma-camped by gankers. Lee Avoid those gates.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.21 19:58:00 - [365] Originally by: Sendraks Edited by: Sendraks on 21/09/2007 14:01:46 Originally by: Zachstar Nah, No need to write that much code and lag stuff. Keep it simple and simply have concord destroy the loot with what? Like 2 shots? BTW this is only for if a Concord ship is within range (Or a station turret) A super well planned gank could still get some loot in before it gets blasted I guess. Why? Why do this. It makes not sense. Why would concord destroy cargo? Basically all you're doing is directly punishing those players who can be bothered to plan hi-sec piracy and indirectly punishing those players who have put in the time and effort to avoid being the victims of such behaviour. There is no good reason for what you're proposing. You're pandering to lazy malcontents who don't want to make any effort and be able to afk round hi-sec in a ship that has all the protection of tissue paper with millions of ISK in the hold. Originally by: Zachstar [Seriously! Once CCP takes such an action you are going to be surprised how quickly everything returns to normal again. Ganks will continue! but they will be for LoL wtfpwned! and not a cheap unbalanced source of bank. Seriously! Once players pull their heads out their asses, stop whining and stop flying poorly protected ships with hugely valuable cargo inside them, you are going to be surprised how quickly everything will return to normal. Ganks will continue! but they will be for LoL wtfpwned! and not a cheap unbalanced source of bank. The only thing you are trying to achive is no change so you can continue ganking and making isk with no risk with your alt.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:03:00 - [366] Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Leeluvv 1. It takes 5 1/2 hours to have a trial character capable of flying a Caracal with Heavy Missiles. 2. It takes 3 or 4 trial characters in Caracals to gank an Industrial and a normal char to collect the loot. 3. The losses are so small after insurance payouts that any Industrial worth 50 Million or above is a suitable target. Don't haul 50 mil in an industrial that can be ganked by a handful of newbie caracals. Quote: 4. Warping to zero makes it harder, but not impossible to gank 5. The only deterrent is a protecting ship that will destroy the hauler when it loots the cargo. It will not stop the gank and the loss of the ship, the mods or some of the cargo when it blows up. 6. There are gates in Empire that are nearly perma-camped by gankers. Lee Avoid those gates. Maybe your next advice is "stop playing the game" and "stay docked"?
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:06:00 - [367] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Leeluvv 1. It takes 5 1/2 hours to have a trial character capable of flying a Caracal with Heavy Missiles. 2. It takes 3 or 4 trial characters in Caracals to gank an Industrial and a normal char to collect the loot. 3. The losses are so small after insurance payouts that any Industrial worth 50 Million or above is a suitable target. Don't haul 50 mil in an industrial that can be ganked by a handful of newbie caracals. Quote: 4. Warping to zero makes it harder, but not impossible to gank 5. The only deterrent is a protecting ship that will destroy the hauler when it loots the cargo. It will not stop the gank and the loss of the ship, the mods or some of the cargo when it blows up. 6. There are gates in Empire that are nearly perma-camped by gankers. Lee Avoid those gates. Maybe your next advice is "stop playing the game" and "stay docked"? If you're so goddamn mindless that you can't learn simple concepts such as the ones I outlined above, then yes, you should probably just stay docked and play with the calculator, because you have no business being in charge of a spaceship.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:20:00 - [368] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 21/09/2007 20:21:46 Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Leeluvv 1. It takes 5 1/2 hours to have a trial character capable of flying a Caracal with Heavy Missiles. 2. It takes 3 or 4 trial characters in Caracals to gank an Industrial and a normal char to collect the loot. 3. The losses are so small after insurance payouts that any Industrial worth 50 Million or above is a suitable target. Don't haul 50 mil in an industrial that can be ganked by a handful of newbie caracals. Quote: 4. Warping to zero makes it harder, but not impossible to gank 5. The only deterrent is a protecting ship that will destroy the hauler when it loots the cargo. It will not stop the gank and the loss of the ship, the mods or some of the cargo when it blows up. 6. There are gates in Empire that are nearly perma-camped by gankers. Lee Avoid those gates. Maybe your next advice is "stop playing the game" and "stay docked"? If you're so goddamn mindless that you can't learn simple concepts such as the ones I outlined above, then yes, you should probably just stay docked and play with the calculator, because you have no business being in charge of a spaceship. Or maybe CCP should just ban idiots that are always ready to give a stupid advice just so they can abuse the game and other players the way they like it? "Avoid those gates"
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:34:00 - [369] Originally by: Ridley Scot Or maybe CCP should just ban idiots that are always ready to give a stupid advice just so they can abuse the game and other players the way they like it? "Avoid those gates" Yeah, "avoid the gates" is so stupid. I guess "whine on the forums" is good advice, eh?
Sundownr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:46:00 - [370] Edited by: Sundownr on 21/09/2007 20:47:48 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 21/09/2007 20:21:46 Or maybe CCP should just ban idiots that are always ready to give a stupid advice just so they can abuse the game and other players the way they like it? "Avoid those gates" Agreed. Let's hear how loudly these gankbears trumpet the 'just adapt' theme-song on the day CCP's pulls their collective heads out of their backsides' exit hole and makes it so there's no insurance payout for suicidal thieving dorks in high space destroyed by Concord. I mean Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ In A Chariot Driven Sidecar, what the hell passes for icelandic thinking these days when an entire group of 'em get together and settle on the current paradigm as it plays out in Eve today? Dev1: "Yea.. hi-sec will be filled with Concord police.. they'll really have a large presence at most gates you pass while in Empire. Should give a good semblance to an ordered law-abiding central Empire area, making the contrast with lo-sec's mostly law enforcement absence quite pronounced." Dev2: "Yea, Yea! And we'll let players hang out in trial-account driven low-cost masses of T1 goodness just sit next to those self-same Hi-sec Concord cops and allow them to gank whatever target passing by that strikes their fancy. Yea, and when the li'l p*ssants are done suiciding themselves onto some hapless freighter, the cops that are massed around the crime-scene will merely watch as the gankers nearby li'l transport buddy waltzes up before the mass of cops and starts taking the property of the victim right from the crimescene, Concord will merely watch and wave!' Dev3 "..." Dev4 "Do you have any idea how incredibly lame and stupid that sounds when you say it out loud like that?" Dev2 "Well.. we could sweeten the deal. How about making hi-sec suicidal gankers legit by actually having Concord pay out insurance for the thieves loss of ships after they broke the law and were Concordokken'd?" All Devs: "Win!" Yea.. okay. Or something. :: ------------------------------------------------- We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit. -Aristotle

Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.21 20:58:00 - [371] You folks are such a bunch of losers. After almost reaching 3 years in EVE my alts never got ganked in Empire once, no matter if in T1 & T2 haulers or freighters. But I concur that it requires some caution and at least a brain the size of a nugget to understand where, when and how to haul things instead of jumping headfront to Jita in a paper ship filled with your monthly work... It's a pity that the subscription price is not inversely proportional to the IQ of each given player. You guys would make CCP stinking wealthy in no time
Yerik Locke Caldari The New Order. United Connection's	Posted - 2007.09.21 21:04:00 - [372] In my opinion, the game mechanics are what they are. The only things that should be fixed are bugs in the mechanics, such as things like when interdictor spheres didn't pull ships out of warp if it had already been initiated. That is a bug. What some people seem to forget is that Eve is a real, consistent, living and dynamic world simulation. It's cold, it's competitive, it's brutal. That is what it was designed to be, that's why I joined it, and that's why I hold this opinion. Lately CCP have been going the wrong direction, in my opinion. Eve has been made easier. New players start with roughly eight times as much "control" over eve as they used to start. Be careful before you accuse me of a jealousy post; that's not what it's about. I honestly don't care about how many SP you start with in Eve; rather, I care about the result. I started with 96,000 skill points. I sucked, and I sucked bad. As soon as I undocked and saw all those ships, the metallic monsters called battleships and the destroyers just bristling with guns, I wanted to play eve, and I wanted to play eve a lot. I wanted to work constantly to achieve things, because I literally just sucked. I had hopes, dreams, wanted to aspire to be great. And I got to the comfortable spot that I'm in now. Because I started out bad. Eve is about rough, brutal competition. The mechanics of the game are the mechanics of the known physical universe [other than the sci-fi stuff, which isn't even in question here.] Let's not putz around with the things that set eve apart. We've got an intelligent player base because of the steep learning curve and harsh conditions. And I love it. ./rant Proud member of The New Order.
Ilya Murametz Caldari Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.09.21 23:31:00 - [373] First paragraph of my previous post: This has been discussed through and through but it all comes down to one thing. Which some folk will start screaming about " you fool don't compare real life to game" and in most cases i would support their "argument" but come on, lets be real here. Originally by: Red Desire Do not compare it to real life. You don't have ships and the police has nothing to do with CONCORD!! Now for a RP point of view is perfect, you die you get a clone. You die get in a new clone and make some money = PROFIT!! So stfu, ganking freighters doesn't happen everywere I see hundreds of freighters that are not ganked. Ganking a freighter takes some skill, especially some organising skills, if not we would see it done all over! Talk about baby falling for a candy Having issues today sunshine? Decided to use your ALT to post in GENERAL DISCUSSION forum with useless STFU like a 12 year old? I do believe it says general DISCUSSION when you click on it, last time I checked, which was 30 seconds ago, so STFU is not really generally discussing there.... Now for sake of the discussion... Police - are agents or agencies empowered to enforce the law and to effect public and social order through the legitimate use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. The word comes via French from the Latin politia (ôcivil administrationö), which itself derives from the Ancient Greek πόλις, for polis ("city").[1] CONCORD - CONCORD is an independent organization founded a century ago to facilitate negotiations between the races to improve relations, as well as to foster inter-stellar trade through policing DED - The police enforcement arm of CONCORD. DED has the responsibility of tracking down known criminals and attacking criminal facilities. They frequently operate outside empire space, wanting criminals to understand that they are nowhere safe from the long arm of the law. Now lets see... it also mentions that my post was there for general amusement, Freighter was used just as an example It also mentions that I haven't not been "suicided" in 4+ years of my EvE life nor participated in such activity (on purpose), and now to add, never ever seen a freighter suicide. Simply, looks like what I was doing was DISCUSSING the subject at hand, maybe I dont know... maybe i'm just crazy. So to conclude, there brightstar. Next time you feel like expressing your e-pride, e-bravery or e-whatever. I would push the keyboard to the side, read the post again, think about it long and hard, than realize where you at, read the post again, think about it some more, read it again just to make sure, than if you still have urge to post nonsense, call somebody.. and ask for advice
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.09.21 23:59:00 - [374] Risk vs reward lets throw that out there atm the haulers take all the risk what risk do the gankers have? none zero nada. Lets remove freighters form the game to since they are l33t gank fodder they are so slow to align to warp takes 3 or 4 minutes. Of course they put ships in that have cargo capacity and little armor or shields that some noob accounts can blow them up lets remove industrials and haul everything in bs, bc and blockade runners should be the only hauler available. Or make 3 to 4x the trips to haul something more if you feel you need to fit tank. There is no balance at all at the way the game mechanics work PERIOD, it does not take half a brain to see that or a degree in MMO games to understand the simple fact that there is 0 risk vs a ton of reward for the gankers how is this working properly exactly why should haulers take all the risk in this situation. /signed 10x over because the current mechanics for tons of cash is just plain stupid.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.22 00:03:00 - [375] Originally by: Sundownr Agreed. Let's hear how loudly these gankbears trumpet the 'just adapt' theme-song on the day CCP's pulls their collective heads out of their backsides' exit hole and makes it so there's no insurance payout for suicidal thieving dorks in high space destroyed by Concord. Except the gankers will adapt. They'll simply draw the profit line at (ships + fittings) < (target's loot / 2) instead. One person claimed four barely-trained Caracal pilots could kill a industrial. That equates to somewhere around 24 million in expenses, which is peanuts compared to what can be made in a successful gank.
SisterBliss The Red Exhilez	Posted - 2007.09.22 01:25:00 - [376] Edited by: SisterBliss on 22/09/2007 01:26:12 Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Ridley Scot Or maybe CCP should just ban idiots that are always ready to give a stupid advice just so they can abuse the game and other players the way they like it? "Avoid those gates" Yeah, "avoid the gates" is so stupid. I guess "whine on the forums" is good advice, eh? Yep gotta agree with Ridley scot that the concept avoiding gates which you know have camps is a stupid idea, I mean the very idea of planning you route is so stupid when you can just set auto to the quickest route. Next thing you will be suggesting that they don't put millions of isk of cargo in a cheap ship with next to no tank. I'd bet you have the nerve to suggest using a scout, or training up to use blockade runners, or using wtz, not to afk haul, or fit modules to make the ship more agile, or moving expensive items when the server is quiet, or checking the map to see how many ships have been destroyed in the last hour. Nope the solution to empire ganking is to start an absolutey monumental thread dedicated to the most whiney players in all of creation, possibly followed by threats of X amount of players will leave if cpp don't change things and maybe the occasional forum hissy fit.
Mooku	Posted - 2007.09.22 02:36:00 - [377] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos As per the definition above me, suicide attacks are not an exploit. They have been around as long as there has been valuable cargo and concord, and considering I have never heard of a single ban and that this has not been changed in any way I think that settles what CCP currently think on this. Please though, step in at any time and correct me if you're "in the know". If you're not, please stop declaring that this is an exploit. It makes about as much sense as me declaring it an exploit that all those juicy freighters don't spend more time in lowsec where I can kill them! Quote: What if you could buy a simple module that has only the single job of turning your wreck and loot into dust in the event you get blasted? It's called the self-destruct button: Nothing survives. If there's one change I would support, it's the ability to self destruct your own ship in a reasonable length of time. As it stands, only heavily tanked battleships/battlecruisers and capitals can ever make use of this feature. Reduce the timer to 5 seconds, and much of this issue would go away without any significant changes being required. Then maybe you should re-read the pertinent section on the EULA again then.Simply put,the gankers most clearly DO have an advantage over the intended target DUE to the KNOWLEDGEABLE use of the game mechanics.The gankers,also have nothing to lose.They complain that high-sec doesnt mean safe sec,ok so what is the point of any-sec...seriously.They hide behind that shield to launch their attacks. Secondly,what would an escort be able to do other then watch the gank happen?..they cant launch a pre-emptive attack.Why,bcuz theyr in high-sec,and generally dont want concord to kill them,as would happen.And who would they attack?So youv got an escort...and they remote-rep ya some,assuming theyv had a chance to respond from the initial pre-emptive barrage that no doubt,all of the gank ships would begin firing within at least 1 sec of each other...what stops the gankers from bringing an extra ship or 2 to nullify that...o you need to bring more escorts,do you see a pattern here? And now,wev been told that a cargo of a value of 50 million isk can be considered a target?And yes the game mechanics are working fine.Ever haul the high end minerals...know how little of quantity it takes to make 50mil worth? So in overview,We have a scenario where a group of people,simply says. 1: You cannot attack us pre-emptively. 2: Concord will defend us if your escorts attacks us. 3: You will not know who we are,nor will you be given any prior notice. 4: We reserve the right to bump your ship out of alignment until such time as we are ready to attack you.You WILL NOT be allowed to attack us at this time. 5: Do not use ship types,X,Y,Z, they are inferior and no longer to be used.Use only ships we deem acceptable for you to use. 6: Do not haul cargo in quantities of larger then X-amount.Any amounts larger then what we believe you to be allowed to haul will result in your destruction.No notice will be given as to what we deem appropriate. 7: Do not go into certain areas at certain times.Do not take certain routes to certain destinations.The term "certain" will not be further elaborated,we will assume you to know what the term "certain" implies. Did i miss anything? And what pre-tell gives one group of players the right to tell another group of players how "its gonna be".So the only proposed defense of this is fleet warfare in high-sec space? And CCP intended this?Somehow i doubt it.Im guessing it more of an oversight...but of course CCP intended everything to be the way it is,the bugs intentional,yup...all the lag in certain areas,yup intentional...every scam that has ever been pulled off..yup CCP's idea.Macro miners..yup CCP pays ppl to do that.....should i continue?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 03:04:00 - [378] Originally by: Mooku What he said ....and if you dont like it, we will call you a carbear and forum whiner, because as it is, game is very balanced and it works well for ME !!
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.22 03:20:00 - [379] Subliminal Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Tasko Pal Heron Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:03:00 - [380] As I see it, there are several big risks with suicide ganking. It takes time to assemble a team, wait for a target, and replace ships after the gank. If the gank fails, then you're out the insurance money and equipment as well. Finally, if you think suicide ganking is low risk, then how about stealing from someone else's suicide gank? Zoom in with a frig, steal part of the loot and warp out. A cargo or speed frig (even a newb frig) with just a MWD installed would probably be all you need. You risk the price of the MWD basically since the frig is so cheap. Anything that could pop that would be more expensive and concorded.

Law Enforcer	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:26:00 - [381] we the noobs want completely security in high-sec. please don't gank us. sing love songs with us. the game is working as intended. nothing needs to be changed.
Araya Meiteselle Gallente Ore Liberation Front	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:55:00 - [382] Yup, one time I transported 1 bil of mods. In an Astarte. I threw them in a small standard container [ no ship scanny for you ]. and had 2 corp m8's escort me with full remote repping gear. No brainer. Got billions worth in a ship ?, get cover. Dont have it ? .. Pay for it. In the tutorial you are TOLD eve is not 100% safe. Yet here we go with people stating how popping freighters in empire is griefing. LMFAO !!!! This in not that level grinding gheyness of WoW. There is risk, there is reward. This is EvE !!!!. If you dont like the game mechanics of EvE go play WoW. Plain and bloody simple. If you go through all this work, and realize that you have put said work and time into your assets... Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? Grats [ unnamed poster ] You've just earned yourself an empire gank for being a whiner. STFU and go back to wow.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 05:01:00 - [383] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well?
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.22 05:25:00 - [384] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well? Actually a corpie in a combat ship would suffice nicely to your ore problem Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.22 05:57:00 - [385] Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Yup, one time I transported 1 bil of mods. In an Astarte. I threw them in a small standard container [ no ship scanny for you ]. and had 2 corp m8's escort me with full remote repping gear. No brainer. Got billions worth in a ship ?, get cover. Dont have it ? .. Pay for it. In the tutorial you are TOLD eve is not 100% safe. Yet here we go with people stating how popping freighters in empire is griefing. LMFAO !!!! This in not that level grinding gheyness of WoW. There is risk, there is reward. This is EvE !!!!. If you dont like the game mechanics of EvE go play WoW. Plain and bloody simple. If you go through all this work, and realize that you have put said work and time into your assets... Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? Grats [ unnamed poster ] You've just earned yourself an empire gank for being a whiner. STFU and go back to wow. This post exemplifies exactly why suicide-ganking should be nerfed.Not only do they explain how great they are,but now there are also threats directed at ppl who disagree with their PoV.That is griefing,and the vehicle to deliver that grief,will be suicide-ganking.This is the attitude that pervades WoW.This poster also explains how completely ignorant they are of whats involved with suicide-ganking....in a cargo container u say?..no scan..uhm yes...cargo cans do nothing to prevent scans..that little fact has long been established.And yes thank you for your thoughts on the manner.Unfortunately at this time i cannot lower myself to your level and return any insults. What i really like about this post tho,is the poster essentially says that <unamed player> WILL be ganked and their is nothing they can do about it.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.22 06:11:00 - [386] Originally by: Giatshi This post exemplifies exactly why suicide-ganking should be nerfed.Not only do they explain how great they are,but now there are also threats directed at ppl who disagree with their PoV.That is griefing,and the vehicle to deliver that grief,will be suicide-ganking.This is the attitude that pervades WoW. You heard it here, folks. EVE should be more carebear than WoW.
Whineroy	Posted - 2007.09.22 07:42:00 - [387] Always funny to see all the risk-avoiding ganker nerds whining endlessly about "carebears", trying to cover up the fact that they themselves are the worst risk-avoiders in this entire game. And the constant "go play WoW"- whining just keeps proving the point about immaturity of said ganker nerds. Proves it almost as well as suggestions like "avoid some empire gates": Anyone who really thinks about the issue realizes that gankers prefer to camp chokepoint gates and thus getting around those gates isn't exactly simple. This thread keeps proving that Eve has lots of carebears indeed and those carebears are not at receiving but delivering end of suicide ganks.
Irob Urore Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.22 08:29:00 - [388] Edited by: Irob Urore on 22/09/2007 08:29:56 No insurance if you lose your ship to concord would go a long way. Like i said before, if you cant beat them join em, start a suicide ganking alt and join in on the fun today! if we have one suicidal raven on each gate, insta popping haulers. Maybe then cccp would take notice, im just sick and tired of seeing people losing so much time and effort to this tactic that requires very little work to achieve.
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.09.22 08:48:00 - [389] Originally by: Ilya Murametz First paragraph of my previous post: This has been discussed through and through but it all comes down to one thing. Which some folk will start screaming about " you fool don't compare real life to game" and in most cases i would support their "argument" but come on, lets be real here. Talk about baby falling for a candy Having issues today sunshine? Decided to use your ALT to post in GENERAL DISCUSSION forum with useless STFU like a 12 year old? I do believe it says general DISCUSSION when you click on it, last time I checked, which was 30 seconds ago, so STFU is not really generally discussing there.... Now for sake of the discussion... Police - are agents or agencies empowered to enforce the law and to effect public and social order through the legitimate use of force. The term is most commonly associated with police departments of a state that are authorized to exercise the police power of that state within a defined legal or territorial area of responsibility. The word comes via French from the Latin politia (ôcivil administrationö), which itself derives from the Ancient Greek πόλις, for polis ("city").[1] CONCORD - CONCORD is an independent organization founded a century ago to facilitate negotiations between the races to improve relations, as well as to foster inter-stellar trade through policing DED - The police enforcement arm of CONCORD. DED has the responsibility of tracking down known criminals and attacking criminal facilities. They frequently operate outside empire space, wanting criminals to understand that they are nowhere safe from the long arm of the law. Now lets see... it also mentions that my post was there for general amusement, Freighter was used just as an example It also mentions that I haven't not been "suicided" in 4+ years of my EvE life nor participated in such activity (on purpose), and now to add, never ever seen a freighter suicide. Simply, looks like what I was doing was DISCUSSING the subject at hand, maybe I dont know... maybe i'm just crazy. So to conclude, there brightstar. Next time you feel like expressing your e-pride, e-bravery or e-whatever. I would push the keyboard to the side, read the post again, think about it long and hard, than realize where you at, read the post again, think about it some more, read it again just to make sure, than if you still have urge to post nonsense, call somebody.. and ask for advice I see your E-Stupidity is strong in you! First of all , I don't even know if I was referring to you. Second of all, are you for real? From the way you wrote your post I sense you have great issues regarding you intelligence capacity. You try to mask your insecurity with posts like this: dressing it nice,gramar check,punctucation, page and to top it alt,age,how smart? jokes. To make it simpler for you, beeing that Concord is made belive , it's not defined by society and it's needs, it's defined by CCP and the gameplay needs. From a Eve perspective, Concord is only a punitive force, it punishes those who are violent unprovoked ... CCP wants it this way, as a balance, you can kill in empire but you will loose your ship. It's easy ,nobody wants empire to be a afk auto-pilot part of the game. For the record the e-brain of my e-peen is bigger then your e-brain. Try to look smart in front of smart people,not on forums. But if you were really smart you would of know that.
Bo Bojangles Minmatar High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 09:30:00 - [390] Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't?

Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:21:00 - [391] Originally by: Nito Musashi Risk vs reward lets throw that out there atm the haulers take all the risk what risk do the gankers have? none zero nada. Wrong. The gankers do take the risk. They lose the ships the use for ganking. Right now the gains are good for gankers vs risk, because people fly expensive cargo around in cheap ships. Aside from this being stupid, it means the gankers do not stand to lose much in order to gain their reward. If people flew their cargo around in appropriate ships with appropriate fittings and flew with due care and attention, gankers would have to expend more vessels to gain a reward. For the average ganker, this isn't going to be worthwhile. But, so many don't see this. They don't accept (and they should) that they have all the necessary means to greatly reduce the level of hi-sec ganking in the game. Instead, as has become common-place in society, rather than solve the problem themselves they try to get someone else to solve it for them. The very most CCP should do is remove the insurance payouts for ships destroyed by Concord. However, I think CCP realise the negative effect that this would have on their petition queues and I'm also sure CCP realise, as I and many others do, that such changes wouldn't be necessary if people didn't a) assume high sec was safe and b) carry expensive cargo in crappy ships and c) fail to escort expensive cargo in expensive ships.
Sgt Job	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:28:00 - [392] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Nito Musashi Risk vs reward lets throw that out there atm the haulers take all the risk what risk do the gankers have? none zero nada. The gankers do take the risk. They lose the ships the use for ganking. Would you say that a builder risks his minerals when building a ship or is it the productioncost?
SisterBliss The Red Exhilez	Posted - 2007.09.22 11:31:00 - [393] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well? What is you problem with the sound advice of avoiding get which you have said know get camped. Your journey may now take 3 or 4 jumps more to avoid the trouble spots, its hardy the end of the world. If you too lazy to take any defensive action then you deserved to get ganked.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:10:00 - [394] Like I said.. desperation to keep their newfound unbalanced wealth. They let the insults and the mines fly. Tho I have to admit SOME of you are putting up reasonable arguments for keeping things as they are. Thank you for not dropping to low levels with the defense here. I am still on the side of simplicity to deal with this matter. No insurance if killed by Concord. Concord fires upon and quickly turns to dust any loot caused by the criminal. After that the problem is solved and the ganks will become fun to watch and hear about again. What a fun way to start a war with 2 (non-alt) corps! A gank that turns many millions of isk into dust! Let the feathers fly!
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:18:00 - [395] Edited by: Sendraks on 22/09/2007 12:20:04 Problem 1) People in crappy tech 1 haulers with expensive cargo losing their ships to hi-sec gankers. The ganking team usually consists of an expendable dps vessel and a hauler to take the loot away. Tech 1 haulers are easily destroyed by these vessels, not to mention feathers and a mild breeze. Solutions to 1) Fly a tech 2 hauler. They are easy to train for and not very expensive. Fitted properly they can tank an assault long enough for Concord to arrive or evade enemy fire completely. If you are unsure how to do this look at the other forums. Don't fly afk If attacked, don''t warp to the next gate/station en route, warp to an object that requires least alignement. Have an escort. Have a scout. Problem 2) Freighters getting ganked in hi-sec. These are big slow vessels and require a lot of dps to take down. Freighters cannot be tanked. Solution to 2). Get an escort consisting of both combat and logistics ships. The former kill the attackers, the latter repair the freighter. ALso see other solutions to problem 1. Conclusion: No method is fool proof, but then Eve is a game where 100% safety is never guaranteed anywhere. There are no counter-arguments to the above which I have seen, as everything amounts to players who "can't be bothered" to break out of their solo mentality and accept that Eve is a game where teamwork is required. Asking CCP to fix this is laziness. The solutions are above. They are not hard. This IS the simple solution. The purpose of Concord is prevent protracted assaults on players in empire, especially new players, by PvPers. Concord does this. Concord serves no other purpose. Don't ask for one. Clarification I do not pirate. Never have. I don't hide behind alts. I am potentially as much a victim to hi-sec gankers as anyone else. However, I choose not to be a victim. I take steps to protect myself. I don't expect CCP to do it for me.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:28:00 - [396] The way I ask for it to be fixed is NOT NOT NOT lazy or to do anything to dispute your methods of defense. The blowing up of the loot is just the obvious way to handle the uber profit problem from alts. Why code mountains of code and get a million petitions to prevent alts from getting the loot? When a hit or 2 from a Concord ship takes care of that problem really fast. I do not want the ganks to be stopped. Just want it to be expensive for them so it becomes and ego/funny thing and not an uber unbalanced exploiting profit system.
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:34:00 - [397] Edited by: Kessiaan on 22/09/2007 12:36:15 deleted since the forums ate my post
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:36:00 - [398] Edited by: Zachstar on 22/09/2007 12:36:31 A quote to get your point across without saying anything? We know what he said and I say it wont fix anything. Have concord blow up the loot. Of course if you have been experiencing the uber profits from ganking them I see why one would be so eager to defend their unbalanced system. Concord blow up the loot = Fix outright.
John Blackthrone Caldari Fnord Works	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:38:00 - [399] Yes i really hope CCP makes it impossible to sucide gank, maybe it could be changed that it is still possible to sucide gank but you cant loot anything after sucide ganking a player, so no one will sucide gank for profit because every module is destroyed after sucide gank so no loot. Sucide gank for revange will be still posible but I think that is okay.
Daeva Vios Ardent Adversary Anvil.	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:40:00 - [400] CONCORD is there to punish, not protect. The moment carebears realize the difference is the moment these whine threads end. Jesus. I don't suicide gank. I've never suicide ganked. I'm not a pirate. Yet, for whatever reason, I was able to figure out that this is a PVP game, and that being able to be attacked in high sec space meant that, eventually, I WOULD BE ATTACKED IN HIGH SEC SPACE. Yet another whine thread. Please go away.

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:41:00 - [401] Originally by: John Blackthrone Yes i really hope CCP makes it impossible to sucide gank, maybe it could be changed that it is still possible to sucide gank but you cant loot anything after sucide ganking a player, so no one will sucide gank for profit because every module is destroyed after sucide gank so no loot. Sucide gank for revange will be still posible but I think that is okay. Of course! You want to keep the ganking system so that you can still have the interesting ganks and the risks to the freighters/miners. However the loot profits need to be in lowsec where concord cant reach the loot to blow it.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:44:00 - [402] Originally by: Daeva Vios Yet another whine thread. Please go away. Stop with the insults and junk and maybe it will. You achieve nothing with the usual dictionary of insults and crap. Leave the words whine and moan out of this conversation please.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:58:00 - [403] Originally by: Bo Bojangles Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't? I like it, no official war, no official looting rights. War declaration is supposed to be the mechanic that makes Hi-sec PvP area, insurance is not. As it stands you can do a lot more harm to a corp without a wardec than you can with one... somehow that strikes me as mildly dumb. I agree that insurance shouldn't be paid out either but I doubt that changing insurance would actually fix the problem. The freighter pilot with 3 bill in cargo may only be making 50-100mil profit/h for his (carefully planned and market dependent) run but the people who gank him are getting around 2 bill to share between them after covering uninsured losses with no risk and no real planning (I sawd it in jita or I herd it on teh forums doesn't count as clever planning).
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:01:00 - [404] Originally by: Zachstar The way I ask for it to be fixed is NOT NOT NOT lazy or to do anything to dispute your methods of defense. Originally by: Zachstar The way I ask for it to be fixed is NOT NOT NOT lazy or to do anything to dispute your methods of defense. I'm sorry Zachstar, but I disagree. The end result of what you are asking for is to make Hi-Sec ganking a totally profitless activity. If it is profitless, hardly anyone one will do it, thus removing the problem, thus players will continue to plod around in tech 1 ships loaded with loot without a care in the world......up until the point where they come here because someone caused them to lose a load of expensive cargo.....just for fun. If you see this ending differently, I'd be happy to hear how. I really don't see it panning out any other way, but I'd be happy to listen to your theories, to whit the change in itself will simply encourage the lazy behaviour which has lead to hi-sec ganking in the first place. Asking CCP to change code is not a simple solution for CCP. You don't know how complex or simple this would be to do. The simple solution for CCP is to let the players sort themselves out. The simple solution for the players is to let CCP do it, but the rational for that is poor given that the defenses are available in game already.
Jade190	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:05:00 - [405] I think failure beat this thread to death
Tari Telrunya	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:07:00 - [406] I, like most people here have been the victim of suiside ganking. Was it my fault? Probably, I was autopiloting (although I was sitting at my pc) so I saw it happen :-( Was I ****ed off that it had happened? Of course! I had a rant to my corp mates how stupid it was that someone in a brutix could suiside gank someone in hi-sec and the insurance payout would mean that they would lose next to nothing. Will I get over it? I all ready have! I won't be autopiloting a hauler (or any other ship for that matter) anytime soon but thats about it. Having said that this post in mmorpg.com was quite worrying: "Played this for a year after release then gave my account away due to time constraints. I recently decided to revisit - but it's almost impossible for anyone just starting to play it now - got 'ganked' 4 times in 3 weeks in so-called 'safe zones'. I can't be doing with wasting my time or having to resort to buying ISK to replace my gear, so I have cancelled my new account and decided to go elsewhere - very disappointed, I wanted to get back into this." If this really is the case then something needs to be done - there is a thin line between hi-sec ganking and griefing new players. If the same game mechanic can and is being employed to do both then something needs to be done about it!
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:13:00 - [407] Originally by: Sendraks I'm sorry Zachstar, but I disagree. The end result of what you are asking for is to make Hi-Sec ganking a totally profitless activity. If it is profitless, hardly anyone one will do it, thus removing the problem, thus players will continue to plod around in tech 1 ships loaded with loot without a care in the world......up until the point where they come here because someone caused them to lose a load of expensive cargo.....just for fun. If you see this ending differently, I'd be happy to hear how. It will NOT make it a pointless activity! Can you idmagine the ego points gained from someone doing a gank without all the profit involved? The laughs! the youtube videos! No blowing the loot will only put a small dent in the activity as it is right now and stop the progressive gain. Afterwards, do you expect them to get anywhere coming to the forums to ask for a change because an ego ganker got them? I hardly think so. They will only get "too bad we already fixed the profit problem, So what happened was realistic enough" Originally by: Sendraks I really don't see it panning out any other way, but I'd be happy to listen to your theories, to whit the change in itself will simply encourage the lazy behaviour which has lead to hi-sec ganking in the first place. I do not think so. Note the ego ganking I mentioned above. The change will only lay off the "gank-4-bank" stuff. Not the "gank-4-lolpwned" stuff. The "gank-4-bank" moves back into 0.4 where there is huge challenge and good pirates. Originally by: Sendraks Asking CCP to change code is not a simple solution for CCP. You don't know how complex or simple this would be to do. The simple solution for CCP is to let the players sort themselves out. The simple solution for the players is to let CCP do it, but the rational for that is poor given that the defenses are available in game already. If the concord target code is that complicated then SOMETHING is wrong. It ought to be a few hundred lines of code to get concord to target the victims loot after they blast the criminal.
Daimos Bellurdan Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:20:00 - [408] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Bo Bojangles Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't? I like it, no official war, no official looting rights. War declaration is supposed to be the mechanic that makes Hi-sec PvP area, insurance is not. As it stands you can do a lot more harm to a corp without a wardec than you can with one... somehow that strikes me as mildly dumb. I agree that insurance shouldn't be paid out either but I doubt that changing insurance would actually fix the problem. The freighter pilot with 3 bill in cargo may only be making 50-100mil profit/h for his (carefully planned and market dependent) run but the people who gank him are getting around 2 bill to share between them after covering uninsured losses with no risk and no real planning (I sawd it in jita or I herd it on teh forums doesn't count as clever planning). Sorry to say it but there is no place in Eve that is not about pvp. This is a competitive game built around risk vs reward. It has always been that way and I sure hope it will always be that way. What are you guys trying to do? Turn this into a second WoW ? Today it will be nerfing ganking in "secure" (lol) space. Who knows what people will whine about tomorrow. Maybe they will want insurance for POSes or something? The game was designed to be a dark, cold and damp place. People started to play it because it was unforgiving and your own success is dependend on your play style (cleverness etc). About concord: Concord is out to punish you AFTER you have done a bad deed. Live with it. Concord is not the police but a contracted mercenary force to punish. Understand that there is simply no protection even in >0.5 space. About insurance: Keep insurance the way it is. If the insurance company does not pay for criminal activities in faction space, why should they do it in lawless 0.0 / lowsec? The insurances in eve do not care about good or bad or morals. They are only out to profit like everyone else from the stupidity of others. Stop trying to draw parallels to our world.
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:26:00 - [409] Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Bo Bojangles Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't? I like it, no official war, no official looting rights. War declaration is supposed to be the mechanic that makes Hi-sec PvP area, insurance is not. As it stands you can do a lot more harm to a corp without a wardec than you can with one... somehow that strikes me as mildly dumb. I agree that insurance shouldn't be paid out either but I doubt that changing insurance would actually fix the problem. The freighter pilot with 3 bill in cargo may only be making 50-100mil profit/h for his (carefully planned and market dependent) run but the people who gank him are getting around 2 bill to share between them after covering uninsured losses with no risk and no real planning (I sawd it in jita or I herd it on teh forums doesn't count as clever planning). Sorry to say it but there is no place in Eve that is not about pvp. This is a competitive game built around risk vs reward. It has always been that way and I sure hope it will always be that way. What are you guys trying to do? Turn this into a second WoW ? Today it will be nerfing ganking in "secure" (lol) space. Who knows what people will whine about tomorrow. Maybe they will want insurance for POSes or something? The game was designed to be a dark, cold and damp place. People started to play it because it was unforgiving and your own success is dependend on your play style (cleverness etc). About concord: Concord is out to punish you AFTER you have done a bad deed. Live with it. Concord is not the police but a contracted mercenary force to punish. Understand that there is simply no protection even in >0.5 space. About insurance: Keep insurance the way it is. If the insurance company does not pay for criminal activities in faction space, why should they do it in lawless 0.0 / lowsec? The insurances in eve do not care about good or bad or morals. They are only out to profit like everyone else from the stupidity of others. Stop trying to draw parallels to our world. You want to keep Eve cold and harsh but yet you don't want to remove the band aid of insurance? A bit contradictive, eh?
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:34:00 - [410] Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan Sorry to say it but there is no place in Eve that is not about pvp. This is a competitive game built around risk vs reward. It has always been that way and I sure hope it will always be that way. What are you guys trying to do? Turn this into a second WoW ? Today it will be nerfing ganking in "secure" (lol) space. Who knows what people will whine about tomorrow. Maybe they will want insurance for POSes or something? The game was designed to be a dark, cold and damp place. People started to play it because it was unforgiving and your own success is dependend on your play style (cleverness etc). Today it will be nerfing an exploit after MUCH talk. Tomorrow will be nerfing another exploit after MUCH talk. This game needs lines and balance. There is nothing wrong with keeping the pirate profits in lowsec/zerosec while keeping higher ego/laugh rights in hisec. You can't let exploits grow and get out of control. Or EVE will quickly lose population which affects everyone. Keep ganking = concord the loot = simple. Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan About concord: Concord is out to punish you AFTER you have done a bad deed. Live with it. Concord is not the police but a contracted mercenary force to punish. Understand that there is simply no protection even in >0.5 space. There is nothing stopping concord from taking out the wreck to "discourage" criminal activity and gangs. I can live with the fact that Hisec isn't safe! I can't be cool with exploits. Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan About insurance: Keep insurance the way it is. If the insurance company does not pay for criminal activities in faction space, why should they do it in lawless 0.0 / lowsec? The insurances in eve do not care about good or bad or morals. They are only out to profit like everyone else from the stupidity of others. Stop trying to draw parallels to our world. I will drop parallels as much as needed to get simple realism points across. Insurance companies want profit. What a better way to keep profits than to deny payouts to those who lose their ships to concord! Another simple solution!

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:36:00 - [411] Originally by: Bo Bojangles Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't? Or the police keep it for themselves. Id think just blowing the loot will be fun to watch tho! Better effects and all that. Of course the loot can simply vanish as concord claims it.. Nah, thats boring!
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:41:00 - [412] Destroying all the loot will solve nothing, and as it stands even if the mark you're hitting is loaded with valuables the chance remains that nothing of any value will survive. This renders the idea of the loot "going away" or being destroyed moot. That means we're back to the one and only suggestion with merit here: that insurance is not paid out in the event of a death by CONCORD. That however is a double edged sword, as there is no way to reliably tell when someone accidently fires upon a gate in highsec, or when someone is actually performing nefarious acts. As such, it too is impractical. So we come back to the idea of this being completely within game mechanics, and that the solutions to this must also be found within the current game mechanics. In this case, that would be: a) Find another route. b) Obfuscate your cargo by carrying lots of pointless small items. c) Fly with a remote repairing escort. d) Transport valuables in a tough or fast ship Any of the above will solve the problem without having to endure the taunting associated with crying on the forums about it. Suicide attacks are, as I seem to have to keep repeating, complete within the rules and mechanics of the game. Despite the loathing towards the those involved, it takes patience and planning to orchestrate such endeavours, and you should respect this and take the same approach towards moving valuable goods. Any alliance knows not to move freighters unescorted, and so should you all. Hardpoint Rigs
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:49:00 - [413] I will no longer try to debate with those who come on this topic saying stuff like crying,while,moan etc. You can take your junk elseware. Just in case anyone isn't understanding. Concord blowing up the loot to "discourage criminal activity" Insurance payments withheld and coverage lost when concorded Are simple and effective ways to move the "Gank-4-Bank" out to lowsec while encouraging the "Gank-4-lolpwned" that still gives all the risk the first gives. Exploit removed and all solved. Remember Concord cant get the loot in lowsec!
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:59:00 - [414] Originally by: Zachstar It will NOT make it a pointless activity! Can you idmagine the ego points gained from someone doing a gank without all the profit involved? The laughs! the youtube videos! No blowing the loot will only put a small dent in the activity as it is right now and stop the progressive gain. Yes, but the reality is the main result of the change is that you will see a huge drop off in hi-sec ganking because it is no longer profitable. The majority of hi-sec ganks are done for profit, remove that and you remove the majority of the ganks. This in turn brings me back to my point is that the solution really is just for the benefit of those players too lazy to protect their cargo properly. Ultimately you cannot get away from the fact that it is so those players who stand to benefit most from such a change. And I can't stress this enough. I am vehemently against anything that makes life even easier for those lazy players. Originally by: Zachstar If the concord target code is that complicated then SOMETHING is wrong. It ought to be a few hundred lines of code to get concord to target the victims loot after they blast the criminal. I agree. However, the thrust of my point is that this is not the simple solution for CCP, it is only a simple solution for players. As the solutions to the problem exist in game already, the simple solution for CCP is to do nothing. I am not opposed to the idea of removing insurance payouts for Concord related kills, but I think this will create a lot of work for CCPs petition queues. A sound idea in theory, but one I think will not be good for the playerbase in the long time. I also think having Concord destroy/confiscate cargo from such attacks is bad for the playerbase as well. Aside from being non-sensical (it is not consistent with the purpose of Concord) it also makes Eve a more sanitised, boring place. Which is never good. And it encourages lazy players to be lazy.
The Hooch Minmatar Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:00:00 - [415] Read below the sig... Concord punishes people, it does not protect them
Sorja E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:03:00 - [416] Yeah Hooch, excepted people are accountable for their actions, which they are not in EVE. Broken logic always mean broken game mechanics. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:04:00 - [417] This tirade against what you call lazy players needs to stop. Choice between lazy players and massive issues from EVE economy and I will always pick allowing the lazyness. If you take such issue why not get into "Gank-4-lolpwned" and deal damage to the lazys?
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:41:00 - [418] I can see both sides of the arguement here. Hi-sec ganking is a problem because risk vs. reward is completely out of whack. Freighter pilots take a huge risk without being able to mitigate it much (they have to get to Jita and no amount of escorts will protect them from a suicide gank for the same reason Concord can't) and the pirates take a very small risk (a few throwaway ships) with almost certain success once a suitable target comes along. There's a reason freighters keep coming up - it's because the regular haulers can equip a proper tank. They know the suicide gank is coming, the prepare for it, it fails. No problem. Freighters can't equip jack. Solution? Give freighters a low slot, 5-6 medium slots, and one high slot, and enough cpu / powergrid to run them. Smart freighter pilots can tank through highsec gate camps, pirates can still gank stupid pilots (just like they can get stupid hauler pilots now), and everyone is happy.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:42:00 - [419] Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan Sorry to say it but there is no place in Eve that is not about pvp. This is a competitive game built around risk vs reward. It has always been that way and I sure hope it will always be that way. What are you guys trying to do? Turn this into a second WoW ? Today it will be nerfing ganking in "secure" (lol) space. Who knows what people will whine about tomorrow. Maybe they will want insurance for POSes or something? The game was designed to be a dark, cold and damp place. People started to play it because it was unforgiving and your own success is dependend on your play style (cleverness etc). Hi-Sec has always had PvP, it's called the war-dec, where you have 24hrs notice to stop hauling large valuable cargoes and to put the dust cover over your faction CNR. This however is a pone way war-dec (we can shoot you, you can't shoot back) activated immediately. So what, pray tell, is the point of the war-dec if you can harm the enemies prime assets without having to deal with their combat forces? As for success depending on your "cleverness etc" I fail to see how suicide ganking, blobbing, nano-ships, lo-sec motherships, remote dooms day... etc, etc ,etc, can be defined as clever tactics. Exploiting poor game mechanics before they get fixed has always been the key to quick and easy success in EVE. Clever would be the trader who put the effort in to research the market, establish a trade route and keep his clientelle supplied in the face of fierce competition. That is a dark, cold, and "damp" universe. Not shooting at Freighters from behind what a Warcraft player would call "blue-shielding" where a non-pvp flagged player attacks a PvP flagged player, it's considered the lowest of the low even there. Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos a) Find another route. b) Obfuscate your cargo by carrying lots of pointless small items. c) Fly with a remote repairing escort. d) Transport valuables in a tough or fast ship Any of the above will solve the problem without having to endure the taunting associated with crying on the forums about it. Suicide attacks are, as I seem to have to keep repeating, complete within the rules and mechanics of the game. Despite the loathing towards the those involved, it takes patience and planning to orchestrate such endeavours, and you should respect this and take the same approach towards moving valuable goods. Any alliance knows not to move freighters unescorted, and so should you all. a) Time is money, also the assaults generally happen at the trade-hubs themselves avoiding them means not trading high volumes which means not using a freighter. b) I'd consider this both an exploit and an abuse of the database, also it doesn't work. c) Even a five man escort cannot save a freighter from a gank squad, also each person you bring cuts into your already slim profit margin. Beyond 2 escorts you may as well run missions. d) How am I going to transport Command ships and HACs in a small fast transport? Also defeats the point of the freighter. It takes neither patience or planning to pull off a successful freighter gank, gather domi's + newbship, sit at trade hub, scan freighters, gank those that provide more value than loss. I've done the math elsewhere but in short if a freighter pilot gets ganked once every 100hrs he's in space he's making a loss. An unavoidable loss.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 14:48:00 - [420] Originally by: Zachstar This tirade against what you call lazy players needs to stop. Choice between lazy players and massive issues from EVE economy and I will always pick allowing the lazyness. Why does it need to stop? Why should such a play style be encouraged? And do you have any evidence that hi-sec ganking is a massive issue for the eve economy? I certainly don't. Why should I stop calling them lazy? This is hardly a factually inaccurate statement. Originally by: Zachstar If you take such issue why not get into "Gank-4-lolpwned" and deal damage to the lazys? Why should I? It is not a style of play I enjoy. Personally I enjoy doing better than the lazy players. They lose their ships and millions of ISK of cargo because they can't be bothered to take simple precautions. I take precautions, I lose nothing, I do better than them. The game will become a much worse place the moment there is no benefit for being anything other than lazy.

Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.22 15:12:00 - [421] SUBLIMINAL Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 15:25:00 - [422] Hell no! M1 Abrams for the FAST WIN! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 15:27:00 - [423] Edited by: Zachstar on 22/09/2007 15:28:28 Edited by: Zachstar on 22/09/2007 15:27:23 Well we atleast know why you support no changes so much Sendraks. Glad I don't have bias. (I do not trade and dont have a freighter that takes so long to align to anything) I do not get affected by ganking but I can still see how it effects things for everyone quickly. Concord needs to concord the loot!
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.09.22 16:02:00 - [424] MAke scanning flag for kill rights if not ganged or in a corp together then these scanning alts could not sit around (insert trade hub here) risk free looking for juicy targets all day to call his gank buddies. Ganking in hi sec should be allowed, ganking in hi sec for sheer profit needs risk right now there is none.
Ilya Murametz Caldari Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.09.22 16:24:00 - [425] Edited by: Ilya Murametz on 22/09/2007 16:25:45 I see your E-Stupidity is strong in you! First of all , I don't even know if I was referring to you. Second of all, are you for real? From the way you wrote your post I sense you have great issues regarding you intelligence capacity. You try to mask your insecurity with posts like this: dressing it nice,gramar check,punctucation, page and to top it alt,age,how smart? jokes. To make it simpler for you, beeing that Concord is made belive , it's not defined by society and it's needs, it's defined by CCP and the gameplay needs. From a Eve perspective, Concord is only a punitive force, it punishes those who are violent unprovoked ... CCP wants it this way, as a balance, you can kill in empire but you will loose your ship. It's easy ,nobody wants empire to be a afk auto-pilot part of the game. For the record the e-brain of my e-peen is bigger then your e-brain. Try to look smart in front of smart people,not on forums. But if you were really smart you would of know that. Still hiding behind the Alt there sunshine I see you really did not follow the advice in my last paragraph there .. it's highly recommended I assure you. I mean, it might be true that you have nothing to fear since you're hiding behind the mighty alt.. but still, you silly Ok let me get down to your level and reply to your last paragraph: My daddy is bigger than your daddy Now that we are done with that, would you please point out me to where in my post this one or any other post for that matter I say: "Empire should be 100% safe" or "We should be able to afk it in our pink robes and only stop to hug each other" I do believe the simple point of my DISCUSSION was that "losing" a ship to concord and getting fully reimbursed for it, well it's not really a loss now is it. Now, what exactly could possibly be my insecurity, lol .. uhmm its a forum fellow, a forum about a game in fact, chill maybe? To wrap it up, I also never claimed to be e-smart I believe, well in fact, English is not even my first language, and on the forums, I am, because, bored at work, I is... Yoda lol So if you claiming to be uber e-smart, and have bigger e-brain At least use a spell and grammar check before you make such claims E-stupidy, passing back on to you, I am.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 16:33:00 - [426] Quote: Even a five man escort cannot save a freighter from a gank squad, also each person you bring cuts into your already slim profit margin. Beyond 2 escorts you may as well run missions. A two man escort is more than sufficient running in ships that are using remote shield and armour repairer modules and drones. We've identified that the criminal act can only happen on the jump-in side of the gate provided the pilot doesn't do something stupid like AFK hauling, and given that the freighter warps so slowly it is simple enough for the escort to get ahead of the freighter. Every time it decloaks, the escort puts it's remote repairing capabilities on the freighter and you'll spoil many a suicide attacker's day, as they generally have the act calculated down to the last hitpoint - a single rep cycle would be enough to foil them. You see? That didn't take a an Einstein or a Maxwell to figure out, it's completely within the mechanics and solves the issue entirely. Given that most sensible freighter pilots will use a web ship anyway to reduce their travel time significantly, they are effectively flying with an escort anyway - now that escort just has to use remote repairing capabilities. Someone above posted that freighters should be given slots - whilst I don't agree with the numbers they suggested, I do feel it would be prudent to give them something. I would suggest a single low slot, allowing the greedy to fit a cargo expander and the sage to fit a damage control. Hardpoint Rigs
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.22 16:54:00 - [427] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Quote: Even a five man escort cannot save a freighter from a gank squad, also each person you bring cuts into your already slim profit margin. Beyond 2 escorts you may as well run missions. A two man escort is more than sufficient running in ships that are using remote shield and armour repairer modules and drones. We've identified that the criminal act can only happen on the jump-in side of the gate provided the pilot doesn't do something stupid like AFK hauling, and given that the freighter warps so slowly it is simple enough for the escort to get ahead of the freighter. Every time it decloaks, the escort puts it's remote repairing capabilities on the freighter and you'll spoil many a suicide attacker's day, as they generally have the act calculated down to the last hitpoint - a single rep cycle would be enough to foil them. You see? That didn't take a an Einstein or a Maxwell to figure out, it's completely within the mechanics and solves the issue entirely. Given that most sensible freighter pilots will use a web ship anyway to reduce their travel time significantly, they are effectively flying with an escort anyway - now that escort just has to use remote repairing capabilities. Someone above posted that freighters should be given slots - whilst I don't agree with the numbers they suggested, I do feel it would be prudent to give them something. I would suggest a single low slot, allowing the greedy to fit a cargo expander and the sage to fit a damage control. I've seen freighters being repped by a logistics ship and 4 BS go down to gankers. I didn't pull the 5 man number out of my ass, I've seen it happen. All you require are a few more Dominix, you can afford to throw 30 Domi's at it per billions worth of cargo you expect to retrieve if your doing it for the lulz and just want to break even, 20 per billion if you want to make reasonable profit depending on how much traffic there is in the trade hub your targeting. Also webbing to improve time to warp was fixed. Not to mention if you have a two man escort you must ensure 90mill/h on your route to ensure the three of you make equal money to mission running. That excludes the possibility of losing a ship... ever, or of having another pilot arrive ahead of you and fill the order, or of having the market shift after delivery, or of... well you get the idea. It's possible to retain a two man escort, but it's pointless, risky, and expensive. In summary; a single rep cycle isn't going to mean squat against a well prepared gank team and pilots tend not to make the 250mill/h that would be needed to cover a respectable escort or losses and retain a profit.
Ginelle	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:19:00 - [428] Long thread, looking at some of the comments on various threads reveals its all much of a muchness, so heres my thoughts on it as if it actually matters. Anyway, one of my chars got ganked a few weeks ago, semi afk hauling in blockade runner. Maybe 500/600 mil isk of stuff blown up by two harbringers. Totally and utterly my own fault for not taking steps appropriate Despite losing a significant amount of stuff to it, I totally do not sign this frankly ridiculous attempt to try and remove suicide ganking from the game and stand behind the system as it is now. Even the neuts and anti-drone changes to Concord were too pretty lame and just a kneejerk reaction to the utterly reprehensible attitude that enough whinging and posting rubbish on these forums will influence game design. the scary thing is sometimes it seems to and the heart of the game will slowly but surely be snipped away until we're playing in happy fun land and that isn't eve.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:20:00 - [429] The ganks must continue and with more enthusiasm than ever. It is only when people see the futility of anything but destruction in this game that real change can come about. It is only when all things lay in waste that building anew can begin. --------------
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:57:00 - [430] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 22/09/2007 19:02:07 Quote: Also webbing to improve time to warp was fixed. Funny, it worked just fine for us last night... Quote: In summary; a single rep cycle isn't going to mean squat against a well prepared gank team and pilots tend not to make the 250mill/h that would be needed to cover a respectable escort or losses and retain a profit. I think you're full of unmentionable. The phrase "proof or STFU" would seem to be appropriate here... Hardpoint Rigs

Ackaroth D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.22 20:12:00 - [431] Pilots who go afk shouldn't still be able to make money (i.e. their profit, which is in their cargohold, moving from A to B without them doing any real work.) Thus, there is a risk involved, and some casualties. If you are going to make money while your away from your keyboard, I should be able to make money while your away too. Autopilot for afk haulers is just a legal macro imho. Should you be defending macro miners now? They go afk and make money...
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.22 20:20:00 - [432] Ever think about using a cmd ship pilot with cmdmods on it ? Higher resist can do alot for the freighter. And if the remove high sec ganking they can just run on hello kitty mode on the server cause then we truely have become it.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:28:00 - [433] Originally by: Zachstar If you take such issue why not get into "Gank-4-lolpwned" and deal damage to the lazys? Because it's stupid. Like you. Whine whine whine whine cry. ps. not an exploit
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:59:00 - [434] Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Zachstar If you take such issue why not get into "Gank-4-lolpwned" and deal damage to the lazys? Because it's stupid. Like you. Whine whine whine whine cry. ps. not an exploit Wow... Worried that I might actually be causing change? Afraid of the power of patience and diligence in getting something changed for the better? Or am I threatening your massive gank profits? Which is it? Directly and Indirectly "Gank-4-bank" in hisec is 100 percent, grade A exploit. The methods of removing "Gank-4-bank" and encouraging "Gank-4-lolpwned" are simple. Concord removes or blows up loot from victims of criminals it blows up. To "Discourage criminal activity" as they will say when they do it. Insurance null and void when you are destroyed by concord. Could even leave the insurance alone if you dont want a complete nerf. Just have the loot removed/blown and the problem is solved.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:08:00 - [435] Originally by: Red Desire From a Eve perspective, Concord is only a punitive force, it punishes those who are violent unprovoked ... CCP wants it this way, as a balance, you can kill in empire but you will loose your ship. Be punished means lose ISK not gain ISK. Gankers are not punished if they have more and more ISK in the wallet after each hauler gank.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:13:00 - [436] Originally by: SisterBliss Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well? What is you problem with the sound advice of avoiding get which you have said know get camped. Your journey may now take 3 or 4 jumps more to avoid the trouble spots, its hardy the end of the world. If you too lazy to take any defensive action then you deserved to get ganked. There are certain gates and systems that are camped by the high sec gankers, that you just cant avoid unless you are ready to take adittional 30 or jumps and even then you have to go thru some other gates that are camped as well as the one you are trying to not go thru.High sec gankers know that and thats why they camp them.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:19:00 - [437] Originally by: Sendraks Edited by: Sendraks on 22/09/2007 12:20:04 Problem 1) People in crappy tech 1 haulers with expensive cargo losing their ships to hi-sec gankers. The ganking team usually consists of an expendable dps vessel and a hauler to take the loot away. Tech 1 haulers are easily destroyed by these vessels, not to mention feathers and a mild breeze. Solutions to 1) Fly a tech 2 hauler. They are easy to train for and not very expensive. Fitted properly they can tank an assault long enough for Concord to arrive or evade enemy fire completely. If you are unsure how to do this look at the other forums. Don't fly afk If attacked, don''t warp to the next gate/station en route, warp to an object that requires least alignement. Have an escort. Have a scout. Problem 2) Freighters getting ganked in hi-sec. These are big slow vessels and require a lot of dps to take down. Freighters cannot be tanked. Solution to 2). Get an escort consisting of both combat and logistics ships. The former kill the attackers, the latter repair the freighter. ALso see other solutions to problem 1. Conclusion: No method is fool proof, but then Eve is a game where 100% safety is never guaranteed anywhere. There are no counter-arguments to the above which I have seen, as everything amounts to players who "can't be bothered" to break out of their solo mentality and accept that Eve is a game where teamwork is required. Asking CCP to fix this is laziness. The solutions are above. They are not hard. This IS the simple solution. The purpose of Concord is prevent protracted assaults on players in empire, especially new players, by PvPers. Concord does this. Concord serves no other purpose. Don't ask for one. Clarification I do not pirate. Never have. I don't hide behind alts. I am potentially as much a victim to hi-sec gankers as anyone else. However, I choose not to be a victim. I take steps to protect myself. I don't expect CCP to do it for me. What a bunch of bs. It just proves that you are actually talking about something you dont have a clue. Industrial or Transport, tech 1 or tech 2, it really makes no difference when it comes to ganking one, other then a number of ships used. Look at the S******dly killboard, you will see they gank Industrial with 1 Myrmidon and they kill Transport with 2. How does that increase the chance for the hauler to survive with his stuff or increase the risk for gankers?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:22:00 - [438] Originally by: Daeva Vios CONCORD is there to punish, not protect. The moment carebears realize the difference is the moment these whine threads end. Jesus. I don't suicide gank. I've never suicide ganked. I'm not a pirate. Yet, for whatever reason, I was able to figure out that this is a PVP game, and that being able to be attacked in high sec space meant that, eventually, I WOULD BE ATTACKED IN HIGH SEC SPACE. Yet another whine thread. Please go away. You dont get punished when you suicide your ship, you get to loot with your alt and in fact you get rewarded for doing this so stop repeating that Concord is actually punishing a ganker, its just not true.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:26:00 - [439] Originally by: Daimos Bellurdan Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Bo Bojangles Have Concord immediately confiscate the surviving loot for pickup by the wronged party at the nearest station. What police organization wouldn't? I like it, no official war, no official looting rights. War declaration is supposed to be the mechanic that makes Hi-sec PvP area, insurance is not. As it stands you can do a lot more harm to a corp without a wardec than you can with one... somehow that strikes me as mildly dumb. I agree that insurance shouldn't be paid out either but I doubt that changing insurance would actually fix the problem. The freighter pilot with 3 bill in cargo may only be making 50-100mil profit/h for his (carefully planned and market dependent) run but the people who gank him are getting around 2 bill to share between them after covering uninsured losses with no risk and no real planning (I sawd it in jita or I herd it on teh forums doesn't count as clever planning). Sorry to say it but there is no place in Eve that is not about pvp. This is a competitive game built around risk vs reward. It has always been that way and I sure hope it will always be that way. What are you guys trying to do? Turn this into a second WoW ? Today it will be nerfing ganking in "secure" (lol) space. Who knows what people will whine about tomorrow. Maybe they will want insurance for POSes or something? The game was designed to be a dark, cold and damp place. People started to play it because it was unforgiving and your own success is dependend on your play style (cleverness etc). About concord: Concord is out to punish you AFTER you have done a bad deed. Live with it. Concord is not the police but a contracted mercenary force to punish. Understand that there is simply no protection even in >0.5 space. About insurance: Keep insurance the way it is. If the insurance company does not pay for criminal activities in faction space, why should they do it in lawless 0.0 / lowsec? The insurances in eve do not care about good or bad or morals. They are only out to profit like everyone else from the stupidity of others. Stop trying to draw parallels to our world. As long as you consider ganking haulers a PVP. Is there anything more lame then high sec hauler ganking really?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:32:00 - [440] Originally by: Ginelle Long thread, looking at some of the comments on various threads reveals its all much of a muchness, so heres my thoughts on it as if it actually matters. Anyway, one of my chars got ganked a few weeks ago, semi afk hauling in blockade runner. Maybe 500/600 mil isk of stuff blown up by two harbringers. Totally and utterly my own fault for not taking steps appropriate Despite losing a significant amount of stuff to it, I totally do not sign this frankly ridiculous attempt to try and remove suicide ganking from the game and stand behind the system as it is now. Even the neuts and anti-drone changes to Concord were too pretty lame and just a kneejerk reaction to the utterly reprehensible attitude that enough whinging and posting rubbish on these forums will influence game design. the scary thing is sometimes it seems to and the heart of the game will slowly but surely be snipped away until we're playing in happy fun land and that isn't eve. You sir are a liar.

Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 23:53:00 - [441] Quote: Directly and Indirectly "Gank-4-bank" in hisec is 100 percent, grade A exploit. The methods of removing "Gank-4-bank" and encouraging "Gank-4-lolpwned" are simple. If it's an exploit, petition it. Otherwise (and I hate saying this) STFU! You keep dipping back into this thread, presumably to bump it, and declare that suicide attacks are an exploit when they are not. and when you have been shown countless times that they are not. I, and I'm sure many others, are sick of seeing you post the same tired argument and same flawed ideas that you did earlier in this thread. Bring something fresh, or leave it well alone. Your arguments and suggestions have been refuted time and time again. Hardpoint Rigs
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 00:43:00 - [442] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos If it's an exploit, petition it. Otherwise (and I hate saying this) STFU! You keep dipping back into this thread, presumably to bump it, and declare that suicide attacks are an exploit when they are not. and when you have been shown countless times that they are not. If you are going to get rude and desperate to keep this in place (Likely because you are making outrageous amounts of money doing it. Am I wrong? AM I?) Then you need not visit this topic. No need to get your blood pressure up and act foolish. Leave the crap out and keep civil please. Desperation and rudeness will not win this round. Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos I, and I'm sure many others, are sick of seeing you post the same tired argument and same flawed ideas that you did earlier in this thread. Bring something fresh, or leave it well alone. Your arguments and suggestions have been refuted time and time again. No no and no no no. I care not what you are sick of. I believe in my point of view and others do as well. Got a problem? Too bad! And no my arguments have not been refuted in the least bit. Mainly insulted by those desperate to keep the "Gank-4-bank" system that fills their wallets with exploit wealth and riches. Do you realize by doing what you just did you only empower my views and feed the views towards you and the other gankers? You were doing a bit better earlier. Keep civil and take the crap elseware. Don't like it? Then can I have your stuffz? (I loved that line used on another topic)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.23 00:44:00 - [443] ok now no one else post, he can only bump it once a day or they will lock it 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 00:54:00 - [444] Originally by: Tortun Nahme ok now no one else post, he can only bump it once a day or they will lock it Do you realize that you have just attempted to gag this topic because a viewpoint that isn't matching yours has been shown? Doing such is outrageous and just shows how desperate things are getting! Trying to influence the forum in order to try to get the points hidden away and locked is grounds for a ban if you ask me. I do NOT BUMP this topic. I explain my points clearly and keep away from the insults and crap. However it seems I got QUITE a few people scared silly and wanting this topic silenced before something happens that will affect them I guess. This really is a terrible situation.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.23 00:57:00 - [445] Originally by: Zachstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme ok now no one else post, he can only bump it once a day or they will lock it Do you realize that you have just attempted to gag this topic because a viewpoint that isn't matching yours has been shown? This really is a terrible situation. actually thats putting words in my mouth, im attempting to gag the topic because you are a hair brained troll with very little intelligent or productive commentary to speak of 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 01:04:00 - [446] Edited by: Zachstar on 23/09/2007 01:05:25 Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Zachstar Originally by: Tortun Nahme ok now no one else post, he can only bump it once a day or they will lock it Do you realize that you have just attempted to gag this topic because a viewpoint that isn't matching yours has been shown? This really is a terrible situation. actually thats putting words in my mouth, im attempting to gag the topic because you are a hair brained troll with very little intelligent or productive commentary to speak of Wow! So if I express my viewpoint without stooping to the level of insults and desperation that makes me a troll? Suggesting concord blow up the victims loot to prevent alts from getting it without having to deal with the consequences as they approach makes me a mindless troll? Yall are acting very rude and desperate and I suggest you stop this mess and get back to the civil debate. This isn't working very well for yall.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 01:18:00 - [447] Originally by: Zachstar Wow... Worried that I might actually be causing change? Afraid of the power of patience and diligence in getting something changed for the better? Or am I threatening your massive gank profits? Which is it? I'd be worried if I actually suicide ganked. Quote: Directly and Indirectly "Gank-4-bank" in hisec is 100 percent, grade A exploit. The methods of removing "Gank-4-bank" and encouraging "Gank-4-lolpwned" are simple. No it isn't, you mewling pusbag. It's 100% allowed and within the rules. The only 'exploit' is if someone somehow avoids being killed by CONCORD after provoking a response. "Gank-4-lolpwned" is stupid, and you know it. Quote: Concord removes or blows up loot from victims of criminals it blows up. To "Discourage criminal activity" as they will say when they do it. Insurance null and void when you are destroyed by concord. I can agree on the no insurance on CONCORD death; not that it matters to people like you, because the minute that gets implemented you'll be whining about something else. Quote: Could even leave the insurance alone if you dont want a complete nerf. Just have the loot removed/blown and the problem is solved. Do that and you might as well just have guns disabled in high-sec unless you're locking a war target or an NPC. But wait, that's what you want, isn't it?
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.09.23 01:18:00 - [448] I find all fifteen pages of this topic rather amusing, honestly. It might be legal with current game mechanics, it might be allowed (because anything you can get away with in Eve is legal), but only a fool or someone profiting from the current situation would argue that it's working as intended. I would suggest you take a random survey of 100 people off the street but it'd take too damn long to explain it to them.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 01:24:00 - [449] Again let me state that when you let the insults and the crap fly I will not waste my time to debate. (Time better spent in EVE) Get civil and turn this into a debate again and I will spend the time to debate with you. If my suggestion is so terrible wont CCP notice that and not implement it? Why have the insults and crap? Unless you think there is a shot they will believe me and change it which will remove the loot and ruin everything for yall I guess. Why not debate civil?
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 01:34:00 - [450] Originally by: Zachstar Again let me state that when you let the insults and the crap fly I will not waste my time to debate. (Time better spent in EVE) Get civil and turn this into a debate again and I will spend the time to debate with you. If my suggestion is so terrible wont CCP notice that and not implement it? Why have the insults and crap? Unless you think there is a shot they will believe me and change it which will remove the loot and ruin everything for yall I guess. Why not debate civil? How's this for civil: GTFO and DIAF You don't want debate, you want empire space to be a huggy fluffy bunny garden where bad things never happen unless you click a little box allowing them to happen. You want WoW PVE server in space. You want Feelings Online. You want everything this game is not. In closing, I hate you.

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:06:00 - [451] Just so you know. I've never played WoW. I have played a little runescape tho. (Used to mine alot) So ya I don't know what WoW is like in the least bit. Can we have debate now? Or can the fix just be implemented now or something?
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:16:00 - [452] Originally by: Zachstar Just so you know. I've never played WoW. I have played a little runescape tho. (Used to mine alot) So ya I don't know what WoW is like in the least bit. That must explain it. Runescape is a breeding ground for idiots. Quote: Can we have debate now? Or can the fix just be implemented now or something? No, and no. On that note, at 16 pages of this back and forth bull****, I'd like to see someone from CCP in here to let us know that A) yes, EVE is indeed going to be Hello Kitty Online: Deep Space Edition or B) no, ganks are fine, grow a pair
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:20:00 - [453] Concord blowing up the loot will not make things THAT different. You can still gank the person but this time you cant get filthy rich from it. The ganks will never stop but it will be for ego/laughs afterwards.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:26:00 - [454] Lets have a consensual flag system for pvp, so if you don't want to be ganked in high sec, you just tick a box in the options Yay I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:30:00 - [455] Edited by: Ilvan on 23/09/2007 02:32:27 Originally by: Zachstar Concord blowing up the loot will not make things THAT different. You can still gank the person but this time you cant get filthy rich from it. The ganks will never stop but it will be for ego/laughs afterwards. Quit being disingenuous. How many posts on the forums re: suicide ganks are "OMG ABADDON GANKED MY REAPER IN RENS!!!1" compared to "OMG CARACALS GANKED MY HAULER W/ 1 BIL IN CARGO IN JITA!!!1"? That's right, none, because it's stupid, and a waste of time, money and effort. Everyone knows that destroying the loot would make suicide ganking pretty much stop completely outside of contracted hits or revenge. You know that. So admit it. You want empire to be perfectly safe for AFK haulers and idiots carrying officer mods in Iteron Is. People like you are the online equivalent to someone who goes into a small, out-of-the-way restaurant and then *****es the whole time he's there that the breadsticks are too hard.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:31:00 - [456] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 23/09/2007 02:32:51 Zachstar, you're missing the point entirely. You've said what you wanted to say, and if you have nothing else to add then you shouldn't continue to post. It's really as simple as that. Quote: If you are going to get rude and desperate to keep this in place (Likely because you are making outrageous amounts of money doing it. Am I wrong? AM I?) Then you need not visit this topic. No need to get your blood pressure up and act foolish. My blood pressure up? Why no dear sir, I'm old enough that I don't get rattled by what people talk about in regards to internet spaceships. As for profiting from this, look me up - do you really think I could enter highsec space? "But" I hear you cry, "You are using an alt to perform these nefarious deeds of ebildom!". Again, I tell you no: Suicide attacks require meticulous planning to execute succesfully, especially against freighters. I simply do not have the patience nor am I rich enough to fritter my money on alt accounts to sit on the Jita gate for hours on end scanning ships and waiting for the appropriate mark. That takes a far more devious criminal than I to execute, and my presence in this thread is merely a salute to my betters: Much like you yourself should be saluting those who successfully evade such attempts at their destruction rather than bringing the same old tripe - which might I add, you need not reiterate each time you rejoin this thread - back to the table. So again I say to you: Bring us something new, or stop posting. Quote: A) yes, EVE is indeed going to be Hello Kitty Online: Deep Space Edition or B) no, ganks are fine, grow a pair I'd bet on B), or CONCORD would never have been introduced as a retaliatory force in the first place! Hardpoint Rigs
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:34:00 - [457] Originally by: Ilvan Originally by: Zachstar Concord blowing up the loot will not make things THAT different. You can still gank the person but this time you cant get filthy rich from it. The ganks will never stop but it will be for ego/laughs afterwards. Quit being disingenuous. How many posts on the forums re: suicide ganks are "OMG ABADDON GANKED MY REAPER IN RENS!!!1" compared to "OMG CARACALS GANKED MY HAULER W/ 1 BIL IN CARGO IN JITA!!!1"? That's right, none, because it's stupid, and a waste of time, money and effort. Everyone knows that destroying the loot would make suicide ganking pretty much stop completely outside of contracted hits or revenge. You know that. So admit it. You want empire to be perfectly safe for AFK haulers and idiots carrying officer mods in Iteron Is And what is it you really want? Whenever you need 1 bil isk, just go to empire, gank some hauler take his stuff, with no risk and no cost to you? Is that what you want? Are you so good so you dont have to work for your isk and you dont have to risk nothing? Hows that for a balance?
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:35:00 - [458] If you have a problem with what I post when I am not throwing insults and crap then why not just ignore and move on? Obviously if I am staying stupid stuff CCP will just pass it on by right? What I'm detecting here is fear that they MIGHT consider what I'm saying here. However, If you are tired with what I am currently saying then perhaps I need to make it more interesting? Very well I shall right a little vision detailed what I have been saying. Expect that post by tomorrow or so.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:50:00 - [459] Originally by: Zachstar If you have a problem with what I post when I am not throwing insults and crap then why not just ignore and move on? Because I can not abide stupidity. Quote: Obviously if I am staying stupid stuff CCP will just pass it on by right? What I'm detecting here is fear that they MIGHT consider what I'm saying here. No, you're detecting people who are tired of people whining about things that are preventable, but would rather have CCP implement heavy-handed patriarchal carebear garbage instead of thinking and fending for themselves. I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. You came to it, I'm guessing, because you thought that it would be like X3 with a chatroom. What I (and the others who are posting against this, I assume) worry about is that CCP will think that this new wave of little suckbabies are the majority and implement these changes because of 'market realities'. These posts are to remind them that there's still a lot of people who like the fact that PVP isn't consensual, high-sec isn't 100% safe and that pirating can be profitable in any level of security. Quote: However, If you are tired with what I am currently saying then perhaps I need to make it more interesting? Very well I shall right a little vision detailed what I have been saying. Expect that post by tomorrow or so. I'm not tired of what you're currently saying. I'm tired of you and the people like you. And if that new idea is just Supersecure Highsec V2, you can sit on it and rotate for all I care.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:53:00 - [460] Subliminal Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts

Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:58:00 - [461] Originally by: Ilvan I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. [/quote And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:59:00 - [462] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. [/quote And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you. Do you tank your hauler? Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:02:00 - [463] Originally by: Ridley Scot And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you. I don't gank, brainiac. Please learn to read.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:03:00 - [464] Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. [/quote And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you. Do you tank your hauler? Why, would that help or would you use 3 Myrmidons next time?
Kessiaan	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:04:00 - [465] You can't tank a freighter (go look on the item database - has as many slots as a shuttle). Out of all the crying and flaming and other lunacy in this thread I think that is the only real issue. I tip my hat to the pirates who were smart enough to figure out how to make suicide-ganks not only work, but very profitable. On the flip side though, freighter pilots should be able to defend themselves against a suicide gank. Drop their cargo capacity about 50% and give them a few low slots. They can equip armor tank modules, or get their original space back and equip cargo extenders. Give them 1-2 midslots. They can equip shield hardners / extenders, or a MWD. Give them a high slot so they can equip a cloak, or a probe launcher. Now freighters are like every other hauler - stupid ones get ganked, and smart ones tank the camp and laugh in local. Problem solved.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:08:00 - [466] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. [/quote And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you. Do you tank your hauler? Why, would that help or would you use 3 Myrmidons next time? So you are putting a tank on it correct? Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:11:00 - [467] Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ilvan I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. [/quote And thats why you gank helpless haulers in high sec!? Go away please. The more you say here, funnier it is. You gank haulers in high sec because its risk-free and very profitable. You figured out a way to get some free bananas thru the hole in the fence and now you are affraid CCP will patch it up. Well guess what, pretty soon you will actally have to do something, no more free bananas for you. Do you tank your hauler? Why, would that help or would you use 3 Myrmidons next time? So you are putting a tank on it correct? Like I said, it makes no differnce, any ship with tank or not can be ganked. You just use more ships to gank it.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:12:00 - [468] Originally by: Kessiaan You can't tank a freighter (go look on the item database - has as many slots as a shuttle). Out of all the crying and flaming and other lunacy in this thread I think that is the only real issue. I tip my hat to the pirates who were smart enough to figure out how to make suicide-ganks not only work, but very profitable. On the flip side though, freighter pilots should be able to defend themselves against a suicide gank. Drop their cargo capacity about 50% and give them a few low slots. They can equip armor tank modules, or get their original space back and equip cargo extenders. Give them 1-2 midslots. They can equip shield hardners / extenders, or a MWD. Give them a high slot so they can equip a cloak, or a probe launcher. Now freighters are like every other hauler - stupid ones get ganked, and smart ones tank the camp and laugh in local. Problem solved. No tank what so ever Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:15:00 - [469] Edited by: Captian Internet on 23/09/2007 03:14:51 Originally by: Ridley Scot Like I said, it makes no differnce, any ship with tank or not can be ganked. You just use more ships to gank it. It would make quite a difference considering that tank could outlast the firepower allowing concord to nuke. What you seem to be asking for is invincibility as you can comprehend the fact that more ships = more alpha. All ships are death prone (except annoying cov ops sitting on the gate watching you and lowsec motherships). What exactly are you asking for? Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:15:00 - [470] Originally by: Kessiaan You can't tank a freighter (go look on the item database - has as many slots as a shuttle). Out of all the crying and flaming and other lunacy in this thread I think that is the only real issue. I tip my hat to the pirates who were smart enough to figure out how to make suicide-ganks not only work, but very profitable. On the flip side though, freighter pilots should be able to defend themselves against a suicide gank. I agree on this. Shuttles should be the only ship with no slots, since they're incredibly cheap and mostly disposable. Quote: Drop their cargo capacity about 50% and give them a few low slots. They can equip armor tank modules, or get their original space back and equip cargo extenders. Give them 1-2 midslots. They can equip shield hardners / extenders, or a MWD. Give them a high slot so they can equip a cloak, or a probe launcher. Now freighters are like every other hauler - stupid ones get ganked, and smart ones tank the camp and laugh in local. Problem solved. Indeed. Of course, people will still whine. "Why should I have to tank my freighter in Empire?! Now I'll only make five billion a week/day/hour! NERF PLX" Ignoring the fact that they didn't even have the option before.

Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:19:00 - [471] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 23/09/2007 03:21:36 Originally by: Captian Internet Edited by: Captian Internet on 23/09/2007 03:14:51 Originally by: Ridley Scot Like I said, it makes no differnce, any ship with tank or not can be ganked. You just use more ships to gank it. It would make quite a difference considering that tank could outlast the firepower allowing concord to nuke. What you seem to be asking for is invincibility as you can comprehend the fact that more ships = more alpha. All ships are death prone (except annoying cov ops sitting on the gate watching you and lowsec motherships). What exactly are you asking for? Its very simple, gank in high sec no problem, bur PAY for it. Feel the pain , thats what Concord is for. Concord is not in the game to spank you, its there to make it hurt. If you get your ship back then how exactly are you being punished?
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:22:00 - [472] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Captian Internet Edited by: Captian Internet on 23/09/2007 03:14:51 Originally by: Ridley Scot Like I said, it makes no differnce, any ship with tank or not can be ganked. You just use more ships to gank it. It would make quite a difference considering that tank could outlast the firepower allowing concord to nuke. What you seem to be asking for is invincibility as you can comprehend the fact that more ships = more alpha. All ships are death prone (except annoying cov ops sitting on the gate watching you and lowsec motherships). What exactly are you asking for? Its very simple, gank in high sec no problem, bur PAY for it. Feel the pain , thats what Concord is for. Concord is not in the game to spank you, its there to make it hurt. How would you feel about a heavy faction hit so if you continue to carry on with kamikaze attacks the faction police will open fire? Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:29:00 - [473] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 23/09/2007 03:29:27 Originally by: Captian Internet Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Captian Internet Edited by: Captian Internet on 23/09/2007 03:14:51 Originally by: Ridley Scot Like I said, it makes no differnce, any ship with tank or not can be ganked. You just use more ships to gank it. It would make quite a difference considering that tank could outlast the firepower allowing concord to nuke. What you seem to be asking for is invincibility as you can comprehend the fact that more ships = more alpha. All ships are death prone (except annoying cov ops sitting on the gate watching you and lowsec motherships). What exactly are you asking for? Its very simple, gank in high sec no problem, bur PAY for it. Feel the pain , thats what Concord is for. Concord is not in the game to spank you, its there to make it hurt. How would you feel about a heavy faction hit so if you continue to carry on with kamikaze attacks the faction police will open fire? Thats really up to CCP, they need to understand that there is something wrong with the current game mechanics, and honestly I dont care what are they going to do, as long as the change will make it a little bit more risky and costly then it currently is. We all know though that you can tank faction ships, not a big of a deal.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:40:00 - [474] Originally by: Ilvan No, you're detecting people who are tired of people whining about things that are preventable, but would rather have CCP implement heavy-handed patriarchal carebear garbage instead of thinking and fending for themselves. I came to EVE because it's a dangerous and gritty place where you live and die by your wits. You came to it, I'm guessing, because you thought that it would be like X3 with a chatroom. Ive never played X3 I came to EVE because I like space stuff. Note my coverage of the events of shuttle mission STS-117 on Nasaspaceflight.com. Right now the cards are stacked in favor of the gankers by a large margin. That ought not to change except for the part of easy to get super profits from 500 million or so on up with alts. Originally by: Ilvan What I (and the others who are posting against this, I assume) worry about is that CCP will think that this new wave of little suckbabies are the majority and implement these changes because of 'market realities'. These posts are to remind them that there's still a lot of people who like the fact that PVP isn't consensual, high-sec isn't 100% safe and that pirating can be profitable in any level of security. Atleast we know why you defend it so, But keep the crap and the insults out of it ok? Stop saying stuff like "suckbabies" Pirates ought not to be making profits in Hisec. However they ought to be allowed to make ego points and laughs. Originally by: Ilvan I'm not tired of what you're currently saying. I'm tired of you and the people like you. And if that new idea is just Supersecure Highsec V2, you can sit on it and rotate for all I care. Well when you stop thinking I am for safe hisec and learn that I am only against the massive profits from the ganking then maybe you wont be so tired.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:47:00 - [475] Originally by: Captian Internet How would you feel about a heavy faction hit so if you continue to carry on with kamikaze attacks the faction police will open fire? Wont mean much when they use and train alts like no other. 10 days or so and an alt is ready to deal serious gank.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:59:00 - [476] Originally by: Zachstar Originally by: Captian Internet How would you feel about a heavy faction hit so if you continue to carry on with kamikaze attacks the faction police will open fire? Wont mean much when they use and train alts like no other. 10 days or so and an alt is ready to deal serious gank. Nerf alts then (irony) Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.23 04:22:00 - [477] Originally by: Zachstar Ive never played X3 I came to EVE because I like space stuff. Note my coverage of the events of shuttle mission STS-117 on Nasaspaceflight.com. Right now the cards are stacked in favor of the gankers by a large margin. That ought not to change except for the part of easy to get super profits from 500 million or so on up with alts. You don't want to tone down the profits or up the risk, you want to remove the concept entirely. Quote: Atleast we know why you defend it so, But keep the crap and the insults out of it ok? Stop saying stuff like "suckbabies" Then stop acting like one. Quote: Pirates ought not to be making profits in Hisec. However they ought to be allowed to make ego points and laughs. Why? Because you said so? Because it inconveniences lazy and witless players? Quote: Well when you stop thinking I am for safe hisec and learn that I am only against the massive profits from the ganking then maybe you wont be so tired. I'll stop thinking you're for safe hisec when you actually give me reason to. Like I said, you don't want suicide ganking to have more risk or less reward, you want it to have no reward, and by extension for hi-sec to have no risk. As long as you keep pushing that ridiculous agenda I'll continue to be hostile.
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 04:29:00 - [478] Originally by: Captian Internet No tank what so ever You're a very handsome man, cap. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.23 05:16:00 - [479] Quote: Wont mean much when they use and train alts like no other. 10 days or so and an alt is ready to deal serious gank. If you suspect someone of recycling alts for this purpose, then petition them. I do believe it is a bannable offense. Hardpoint Rigs
Kimi Caldari Pegasus Endeavors	Posted - 2007.09.23 06:52:00 - [480] Originally by: Ridley Scot Thats really up to CCP, they need to understand that there is something wrong with the current game mechanics, and honestly I dont care what are they going to do, as long as the change will make it a little bit more risky and costly then it currently is. We all know though that you can tank faction ships, not a big of a deal. This is really a 5 yearish old problem. Time after time it seems that CCP has been slow to act when the situation favors the ganker, exploiters, and risk vs reward imbalances. It took them months in 2003 to upgrade the sentry guns etc in 1.0 space - there were several months where almost anyone with something better than a cruiser could easily wipe out Concord in many systems. If anyone remembers (the now dead) M0o corp, they made ganking and gate exploits famous - they and a few other corps like them are what forced many of the nerfs you see today, like limits on how many MWD's you can equip. This will eventually be addressed, but given how long other tweaks have taken in the past, I don't expect it soon.

34534bobalt3244	Posted - 2007.09.23 08:35:00 - [481] Originally by: Kimi Originally by: Ridley Scot Thats really up to CCP, they need to understand that there is something wrong with the current game mechanics, and honestly I dont care what are they going to do, as long as the change will make it a little bit more risky and costly then it currently is. We all know though that you can tank faction ships, not a big of a deal. This is really a 5 yearish old problem. Time after time it seems that CCP has been slow to act when the situation favors the ganker, exploiters, and risk vs reward imbalances. It took them months in 2003 to upgrade the sentry guns etc in 1.0 space - there were several months where almost anyone with something better than a cruiser could easily wipe out Concord in many systems. If anyone remembers (the now dead) M0o corp, they made ganking and gate exploits famous - they and a few other corps like them are what forced many of the nerfs you see today, like limits on how many MWD's you can equip. This will eventually be addressed, but given how long other tweaks have taken in the past, I don't expect it soon. Or never. If you have read ANY of the CCP responses that are located among the hundreds of suicide gank threads.
Ginelle	Posted - 2007.09.23 09:07:00 - [482] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Ginelle Long thread, looking at some of the comments on various threads reveals its all much of a muchness, so heres my thoughts on it as if it actually matters. Anyway, one of my chars got ganked a few weeks ago, semi afk hauling in blockade runner. Maybe 500/600 mil isk of stuff blown up by two harbringers. Totally and utterly my own fault for not taking steps appropriate Despite losing a significant amount of stuff to it, I totally do not sign this frankly ridiculous attempt to try and remove suicide ganking from the game and stand behind the system as it is now. Even the neuts and anti-drone changes to Concord were too pretty lame and just a kneejerk reaction to the utterly reprehensible attitude that enough whinging and posting rubbish on these forums will influence game design. the scary thing is sometimes it seems to and the heart of the game will slowly but surely be snipped away until we're playing in happy fun land and that isn't eve. You sir are a liar. You don't believe that I got a fair amount of assets blown up or you don't believe that I am 100% in favour of suicide ganks after that happening? Cos believe me, it happened and I would not have the game any other way. If you really don't believe me, check out the killboard stats of my 2 chick alt corp's founder. Sure it was frustrating as it happened the night before my first match in the recent tournament, but I only have myself to blame for the loss, it was me who took insufficient steps to protect my supplies and I paid the price for it in both isk and the time spent running round quickly replacing the lost assets. Empire is not and should never be a totally safe place, it has higher security than low sec for sure, but it shouldn't be the equivalent of hitting a no pvp flag. It shouldn't be a totally safe haven for 0.0 entities to carry out logistics work with zero risk - the whining about privateers sadly produced a nerf which increased safety and was totally uncalled for. High sec is slowly but surely moving towards something horrible, somewhere players want the flavour taken out of. I don't, and calling me out as a liar when I say something that doesn't sit well with your preconceptions and ideals just means you don't understand me and most likely don't understand the game.
Audio Bully	Posted - 2007.09.23 09:29:00 - [483] Put stuff in cans and ofc ccp let people use their heads to do something new/different e.g. nanoships and suicide ganking nuff said
RedLion Caldari Caldari Navy II	Posted - 2007.09.23 10:16:00 - [484] EVE is not a PvE game, a shame really, but that's the fact - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:14:00 - [485] Originally by: Ridley Scot What a bunch of bs. It just proves that you are actually talking about something you dont have a clue. Industrial or Transport, tech 1 or tech 2, ship type or ship setup really makes no difference when it comes to ganking one, other then a number of ships used. Look at the killboard, you will see they gank Industrial with 1 Myrmidon and they kill Transport with 2. How does that increase the chance for the hauler to survive with his stuff or increase the risk for gankers? As you can see no risk for gankers, its safe and cozy in high sec, he will find a target worth killing, suicide it, loot, get the new ship for the insurance money he just received. Rinse and repeat. Its lame and its exploit and CCP needs to fix it. The only BS here is yours. You evidently know nothing about fitting tech 2 transports to deal with attacks at gates. People in 0.0 do this all the time against heavier gate camps than you see in hi-sec. Looking at three of the transports on the killboard, boy were they poorly fitted and up against a lot of firepower as well. Besides, 0.5 is hardly the safest end of hi-se either. Besides on those kills, you've only got half the story. Did the transport pilots check the map for ship kills beforehand? Did they use a scout to check for potential problems? Or did they just blunder through the gate without really paying attention? Hmmmmm. If you don't know what you're talking about, and you evidently don't, you'd be best bowing out of this debate. Tech 2 transports (fitted properly) vastly increase your chances of survival over a tech 1. You will never be 100% safe, but then no one but a complete fool would insist that should be the case. The moment the vast majority of players transporting expensive goods through hi-sec switches from using crappy haulers or poorly fitted vessels, starts paying attention to the possible dangers on their route, then the number of ganks will go down. No two ways about it. If CCP can come up with a fool-proof system where Concord kills don't payout insurance, where random Concordokken's in missions no longer occur + other random bugs, great. That change would make sense and hopefully wouldn't result in a petition queue lightyears long. Of course people will still gank and the whines will still keep coming, because there does appear to be a sizeable portion of the playerbase that will keep complaining until hi-sec is a totally sterile. At which point you do have to wonder, why give em inch, they'll only try to take a mile in the end? Should people in hi-sec only be able to attack targets via war-decs? Hell no. If a player can move millions of ISK around hi-sec while in a non-war deccable NPC corp, then they should be attackable by non-war deccable NPC corps. The exploitation there works both ways.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:38:00 - [486] Originally by: Sendraks If a player can move millions of ISK around hi-sec while in a non-war deccable NPC corp, then they should be attackable by non-war deccable NPC corps. The exploitation there works both ways. And why would true pirates hide behind NPC corps ? Frankly, if you blow up some carebear wagon in Empire and as bonus you get a wardec, it's party time, in this context I could not expect a better outcome
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 12:06:00 - [487] Originally by: RedLion EVE is not a PvE game, a shame really, but that's the fact EVE markets itself as a PvP game. That does not mean it isn't primarily a PvE game. For every hour of combat, for example, how many hours of mining, hauling, industry, etc went into that? CCP cover this by saying all such things are PvP, which is to a degree true. In which case trade is very much PvP. It certainly has more risk and competitiveness than a lot of combat in EVE. So either EVE is primarily a PvE game or industry, trade, and other forms of non-combat content are in-fact PvP. Either way your point is technically invalid.
Space Hopper	Posted - 2007.09.23 14:13:00 - [488] well, i regulaly gank atthe gates - so ill have to post a reply first of all to those who clame you can gank a freighter with 10 batleships : you cant - they only time you can kill anhthing is between first shot and concord ariving - about 30 seconds. the only time i saw haulers go is when pilots have been stupid enouht to accept a war gang invite. or in low sec. and to those who thinks tha situaltion favours teh gankers hugly - please dont forget that the expencive stuff gets destroid regulaly ( more often then not) and you end up with junk alot. and with warp to 0 it becam rare to see money traveling afk. oh yes, and therd - about all the proposed fixes to concord and not alowing to shoot non hostiles targets in empire and etc. - this isnt WOW, ther are consiquences to stupidety. if you are "naive" enough to put several bilons in to untanked t1 paperthin idustrial and then travel 30 jumps while afk - i will have your stuff!
Ethaet Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.23 14:16:00 - [489] /signed - TQ has encountered a database issue, we are sitting around wondering why it has crashed this time, waiting for 500,000 petitions and watching the forums fill up.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 19:40:00 - [490] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 23/09/2007 19:41:10 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 23/09/2007 19:40:22 Originally by: Sendraks Edited by: Sendraks on 23/09/2007 11:23:19 Originally by: Ridley Scot What a bunch of bs. It just proves that you are actually talking about something you dont have a clue. Industrial or Transport, tech 1 or tech 2, ship type or ship setup really makes no difference when it comes to ganking one, other then a number of ships used. Look at the killboard, you will see they gank Industrial with 1 Myrmidon and they kill Transport with 2. How does that increase the chance for the hauler to survive with his stuff or increase the risk for gankers? As you can see no risk for gankers, its safe and cozy in high sec, he will find a target worth killing, suicide it, loot, get the new ship for the insurance money he just received. Rinse and repeat. Its lame and its exploit and CCP needs to fix it. The only BS here is yours. You evidently know nothing about fitting tech 2 transports to deal with attacks at gates. People in 0.0 do this all the time against heavier gate camps than you see in hi-sec. Looking at three of the transports on the killboard, boy were they poorly fitted and up against a lot of firepower as well (as much as anyone can tell). Besides, 0.5 is hardly the safest end of hi-se either. Besides on those kills, you've only got half the story. Did the transport pilots check the map for ship kills beforehand? Did they use a scout to check for potential problems? Or did they just blunder through the gate without really paying attention? Hmmmmm. If you don't know what you're talking about, and you evidently don't, you'd be best bowing out of this debate. Tech 2 transports (fitted properly) vastly increase your chances of survival over a tech 1. You will never be 100% safe, but then no one but a complete fool would insist that should be the case. The moment the vast majority of players transporting expensive goods through hi-sec switches from using crappy haulers or poorly fitted vessels, starts paying attention to the possible dangers on their route, then the number of ganks will go down. No two ways about it. If CCP can come up with a fool-proof system where Concord kills don't payout insurance, where random Concordokken's in missions no longer occur + other random bugs, great. That change would make sense and hopefully wouldn't result in a petition queue lightyears long. Of course people will still gank and the whines will still keep coming, because there does appear to be a sizeable portion of the playerbase that will keep complaining until hi-sec is a totally sterile. At which point you do have to wonder, why give em inch, they'll only try to take a mile in the end? Should people in hi-sec only be able to attack targets via war-decs? Hell no. If a player can move millions of ISK around hi-sec while in a non-war deccable NPC corp, then they should be attackable by non-war deccable NPC corps. The exploitation there works both ways. There is really not much to debate here. In high sec Concord should punish the attackers and it doesn't because gankers end up with more then they lose. As for the PVP in high sec, there is something called wardec so feel free. Gankers are not suppose to be able to pirat in high sec and that is NOT by design. They can do it because Concord needs upgrade to prevent high sec piracy, otherwise remove Concord, make all space low sec or 0.0 space and let the players deal with gankers. I'm sure CCP will get to it, as for when, well, thats a good question.

Maximada Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.09.23 20:41:00 - [491] Stop whining op, a freighter gank can be avoided simply by using your corp mates to remote you in logistics/cruisers long enough for the cops to do their work, but oh noes you cant be bothered to do that can you? Moving that much stuff shouldnt be as easy as it is anyway, there should always be an element of risk everytime you undock. And moving a large quantity of materials should be a gang effort. Would you let a seurity van travel down a highway full of gold without an escort? I know your gang cannot return fire but THEY CAN REP YOU. If they make it 100% safe to haul in high sec, then i propose they also add a chance that haulers will break down at a random point in space and that your trapped in that ship for being a complete carebear in the first place and your character slowly starves to death and then rots away. I dont suicide gank but ccp have got it spot on, well done devs for a great game. Maxi.
Sorted High Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.09.23 20:48:00 - [492] NOT SIGNED!!!!! OP is just another whiner, same methord for getting the PRIVS nerfed. Created a huge discussion - relable the thread title to show at a glance huge support for your insesent whining. ADAPT>>Scout, Remote Reppers, HG Slave, multiple trips. NOT FLYING AFK? Cry cry cry cry cry. - change the game i cant win, cry cry cry cry cry.
Necro EvilZombie North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.23 21:01:00 - [493] just because you guys afked to go take a dump and lost alot of isk doesn't mean that we should change the rules of the game. --------------------------------------------------------------
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:27:00 - [494] Originally by: Maximada Stop whining op, a freighter gank can be avoided simply by using your corp mates to remote you in logistics/cruisers long enough for the cops to do their work, but oh noes you cant be bothered to do that can you? Moving that much stuff shouldnt be as easy as it is anyway, there should always be an element of risk everytime you undock. And moving a large quantity of materials should be a gang effort. Would you let a seurity van travel down a highway full of gold without an escort? I know your gang cannot return fire but THEY CAN REP YOU. If they make it 100% safe to haul in high sec, then i propose they also add a chance that haulers will break down at a random point in space and that your trapped in that ship for being a complete carebear in the first place and your character slowly starves to death and then rots away. I dont suicide gank but ccp have got it spot on, well done devs for a great game. Maxi. Yes, because we all have corp-mates willing to trail round behind us for hour on end. Most don't care if a freighter pilot offered them 60mill an hour to escort him they have better things to do than slow boat around hi-sec in their spare time. Also your analogy fails, if the Cops turned up finding you shooting the living hell out of my security van they sure as hell wouldn't blow your car up and then allow you to turn up in a van of your own and grab all the gold. Also, and this has been stated repeatedly, you can throw a ridiculous number of ships at a freighter and still make a profit. We're talking alliance blob style DPS, even a CS bonused logistic repped freighter is going to melt like a snowball in hell under that kind of firepower. Lastly, do you really think if it was that easy and still profitable to ensure a freighters safety people wouldn't do it? Gank squads are the Hi-Sec equivalent of Lo-sec motherships, there is no reasonable solution. Make it so that looting without getting Concordokkened requires a war-dec. Then they can stop being pirate care-bears (oxymoron ftw) hiding behind Concord, man up, and face an opponent who is able to actually fight back. It's a PvP game, or so we are told, give us a PvP solution.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:31:00 - [495] That sounds reasonable enough. Concord wont be there to blow up the loot in a wardec. So no war dec = Concord blows up the loot. War dec = If you can find his hauler and gank it. YOU (Not an alt) are entitled to the riches! See a reasonable solution can be found. No need for insults and stuff!
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:56:00 - [496] Edited by: Sendraks on 23/09/2007 22:59:22 Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Make it so that looting without getting Concordokkened requires a war-dec. I'd agree to that IF the change allowed for NPC corps to be war-dec'd or NPC corps were done away with altogether. Otherwise the reality is that you're then just creating an "untouchable" class of players, almost totally immune to PvP. If that happens, EvE is pretty much dead.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:59:00 - [497] Originally by: Ridley Scot Gankers are not suppose to be able to pirat in high sec and that is NOT by design. Isn't it? Are you sure? Have CCP told you this? Originally by: Ridley Scot They can do it because Concord needs upgrade to prevent high sec piracy, Concord. Does. Not. Exist. To. Prevent. Piracy. That is not the purpose of Concord as a game mechanic. If this is the basis for your argument, then it is very flawed. Originally by: Ridley Scot otherwise remove Concord, make all space low sec or 0.0 space and let the players deal with gankers. This suggestion shows that you clearly don't know the purpose Concord serves in the game.
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:59:00 - [498] Edited by: Zachstar on 23/09/2007 23:00:58 Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Make it so that looting without getting Concordokkened requires a war-dec. I'd agree to that IF the change allowed for NPC corps to be war-dec'd or NPC corps were done away with altogether. Otherwise the reality is that you're then just creating an "untouchable" class of players, totally immune to PvP. If that happens, EvE is pretty much dead. Willing to tone that down to 30 day limit for NPC corps before losing concord "Insurance" That they will show up? So that if you are in a NPC corp afterwards and still want to transport stuff. You will be nearly wide open and able to be "Gank-4-banked" Sounds reasonable?
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.23 23:01:00 - [499] Originally by: Zachstar Willing to tone that down to 30 day limit for NPC corps before losing concord "Insurance" That they will show up? So that if you are in a NPC corp afterwards and still want to transport stuff. You will be nearly wide open and able to be "Gank-4-baked" Sounds reasonable? I think we're getting somewhere now. Yes. Realistically no one who is going to be transporting anything of value will have been in game for much less than 30 days (assuming no e-bay, no kindly benefactors etc etc). So that seems reasonable to me.
Dihania Gallente Oyster Colors	Posted - 2007.09.23 23:02:00 - [500] Originally by: Creed Richards Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? Space is NOT meant to be safe! WE/YOU can make it safe by cooperation with other players. ******** Recruitment OPEN

Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.23 23:06:00 - [501] Originally by: Sendraks I think we're getting somewhere now. Yes. Realistically no one who is going to be transporting anything of value will have been in game for much less than 30 days (assuming no e-bay, no kindly benefactors etc etc). So that seems reasonable to me. Very well I think it will be a good idea to support such a change. It will require players a little time to get used to things before really needing to get into a corp. I am currently not in a corp, However that will change soon enough as I tire more and more of being out here alone with few to talk to. EVE needs to be attractive for joining a corp and that 30 day limit for protection without being in one I think will do it. While we are on the subject of compromise what are the thoughts about altering lowsec to make it more attractive to take risks in? Tho I dislike pirates GREATLY I want to be reasonable and allow them to have targets. What could be done to get this going so that more will venture out there?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 23:40:00 - [502] Originally by: Sendraks Originally by: Ridley Scot Gankers are not suppose to be able to pirat in high sec and that is NOT by design. Isn't it? Are you sure? Have CCP told you this? Originally by: Ridley Scot They can do it because Concord needs upgrade to prevent high sec piracy, Concord. Does. Not. Exist. To. Prevent. Piracy. That is not the purpose of Concord as a game mechanic. If this is the basis for your argument, then it is very flawed. Originally by: Ridley Scot otherwise remove Concord, make all space low sec or 0.0 space and let the players deal with gankers. This suggestion shows that you clearly don't know the purpose Concord serves in the game. Ok so what is Concord as a game mechanics for? Can you tell us? Just dont tell me its there to punish please...
SisterBliss The Red Exhilez	Posted - 2007.09.24 00:31:00 - [503] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 23:59:33 Originally by: SisterBliss Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well? What is you problem with the sound advice of avoiding get which you have said know get camped. Your journey may now take 3 or 4 jumps more to avoid the trouble spots, its hardy the end of the world. If you too lazy to take any defensive action then you deserved to get ganked. There are certain gates and systems that are camped by the high sec gankers, that you just cant avoid unless you are ready to take adittional 30 or jumps and even then you have to go thru some other gates that are camped as well as the one you are trying to not go thru.High sec gankers know that and thats why they camp them. You dont think they camp some random gate do you? Oh please show me one system it takes 30 jumps to avoid, I know facts aren't good for you and your ain't gank melodrama. If you want to just AFK haul just admit it drop all this crap about eve being broken and stop you pathetic whineing
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 01:25:00 - [504] Originally by: SisterBliss Edited by: SisterBliss on 24/09/2007 00:39:27 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 23:59:33 Originally by: SisterBliss Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:03:36 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 22/09/2007 05:02:56 Originally by: Araya Meiteselle Why in the bloody name of god would you not invite a fleet of remote repping Domi's to escort you ? I must say this is the best one yet, even better then "avoid certain high sec gates". I could almost see it, haulers flying all over high sec with fleets of Domis following for protection Is that what we should do as protection from ore thiefs as well? What is you problem with the sound advice of avoiding get which you have said know get camped. Your journey may now take 3 or 4 jumps more to avoid the trouble spots, its hardy the end of the world. If you too lazy to take any defensive action then you deserved to get ganked. There are certain gates and systems that are camped by the high sec gankers, that you just cant avoid unless you are ready to take adittional 30 or jumps and even then you have to go thru some other gates that are camped as well as the one you are trying to not go thru.High sec gankers know that and thats why they camp them. You dont think they camp some random gate do you? Oh please show me one system it takes 30 jumps to avoid, I know facts aren't good for you and your ain't gank melodrama. If you want to just AFK haul just admit it drop all this crap about eve being broken and stop you pathetic whineing Edit: You had since July (assuming you are a main and not just trolling) to understand that concord are there to punish not police. Ok lets try this again, how exactly is ganker punished if you end up with more ISK then before the gank? Oh and yeah, WHINE, WHINE, WHINE, WHINE now what you gonna do about that?
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.24 04:35:00 - [505] Edited by: Lorde Falcao on 24/09/2007 04:39:05 Originally by: Sendraks Edited by: Sendraks on 23/09/2007 11:23:19 Originally by: Ridley Scot What a bunch of bs.It just proves that you are actually talking about something you dont have a clue. Look at the killboard, you will see they gank Industrial with 1 Myrmidon and they kill Transport with 2.As you can see no risk for gankers, its safe and cozy in high sec, he will find a target worth killing, suicide it, loot, get the new ship for the insurance money he just received. Rinse and repeat. Its lame and its exploit and CCP needs to fix it. Tech 2 transports (fitted properly) vastly increase your chances of survival over a tech 1. You will never be 100% safe, but then no one but a complete fool would insist that should be the case. You're absolutely correct. In fact, killboards don't even show half the story in this case - it doesn't record how many ships we've scanned that have had too tough a tank to even try and gank. I'll give you an example - I find a viator with 350k zydrine in it, but I don't have a ship scanner, so I go for it anyway. In .5, with no CONCORD on the gare, I didn't even get it to 3/4 shield before I died. It probably had all shield extenders on it and no MWD - he was set-up for AFK hauling, and short of having 5-6 blaster boats there, there's no way we could have taken it. There are a lot of poor analogies in this thread making comparisons to the police and what have you. You can't do that in any of these circumstances and have the analogy hold up. No one ever puts everything they own into a brown paper bag and drives down the sreet holding it asleep on a scooter. The police don't instantly appear whenever a crime is committed. The police don't always catch the criminals that commit crimes. EVE is a game. Real Life is real life. Let's stop making poor anolgies that are really poorly constructed straw-men. That being said, EVE was designed to be unforgiving. Suicide ganking has been around since the game started - many of the older members in my corp told me about doing it long, long ago, back during Exodus. While I'm not going to make the argument "it was ok then it's ok now", you have to ask yourself a few questions before begging CCP to "fix" or "nerf" a feature of the game. Has CCP addressed the issue in the past? Are there measures the player can take to avoid the problem? Is the issue commonplace? Are people quitting over the issue? Yes and no - CCP has buffed CONCORD significantly, there are ways the player can help protect themselves, and the issue is not that common. That being said, I won't deny that people have probably quit over being blown up. But people have quit over getting ganked in lowsec, after losing their favorite mission running ship, or after laggy fleet battles. Why does getting blown up in high-sec take some special presidence over all of the other reasons people quit? I don't think anyone ever said high-sec was suppose to completely prevent non-consensual combat, just deter it. Which brings me back to my first point - there are plenty of ways of detering non-consensual combat. If CCP wanted to make it simple, they would have had "non-consensual" zones and "consensual" zones. But they didn't. There are 11 different security ratings which allow the player to judge exactly how safe they are. Leave it alone CCP. edit: Originally by: Ridley Scot Ok lets try this again, how exactly is ganker punished if you end up with more ISK then before the gank? I've never made money letting my ship get blown up. I admit the financial loss is not significant, but the security status hits, and subsequent hours of ratting to fix it do make suicide ganking as a reliable source of income impossible.
Peter Piney	Posted - 2007.09.24 04:37:00 - [506] Well, I'll be joining a new corp where I can YARRR to my black little heart's content in lowsec... but I gotta get rid of my phoon... I have it insured and that would be wasted money otherwise so I just gonna load it with smartbombs and go find me a lone Hulk in 0.5 Alt posting FTW!
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 05:57:00 - [507] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 06:05:03 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 06:03:37 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 05:57:52 Originally by: Lorde Falcao Total nonsense, because its in your interest. So you say CCP should leave it the way it is, but you are not getting rich not risking anything right? You my friend are not risking one thing for doing this for a few reasons. Low sec pirat has to worry about the fact that someone can jump in and blow him up when he is waiting for his prey. You dont, because you are sitting in high sec no1 will attack your battle-ready ship. Second point, you dont risk your ship again, do to the fact that all the haulers you are ganking are pre-screened for the loot without a hauler even being aware that he is scanned due to the use of passive targeters. So you never miss or lose more then you get in return. Could there be anything easier then this? High sec ganking is 0 risk, all profit, easy way of collecting ISK. And thats a fact otherwise you wouldnt do it. Losing sec status is a problem, but then who cares? One good gank can net you 500-1000 mil ISK and if you do it 2-3 times per month, you can easy keep your status positive with casual rating in 0.0 and keep all the ISK. You are IMO abusing the game, and I'm sure CCP would fix it easy removing insurance for the ships killed by Concord, problem is a lot of people that are losing ships to Concord by excident will be cut short and I'm sure that not in a best interest for the game. EDIT: Oh and for the high sec being combat free, yes you are correct, CCP never wanted the high sec to be combat free, thats why we have wardec as a solution. The only problem for you and what you do though, is the fact it takes 24 hours to get in effect. I guess it would be too much to ask that hauler to sit and wait in Niarja for 24 hours...
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 06:09:00 - [508] Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 24/09/2007 06:10:49 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 05:57:52 Originally by: Lorde Falcao Total nonsense, because its in your interest. So you say CCP should leave it the way it is, but you are not getting rich not risking anything right? You my friend are not risking one thing for doing this for a few reasons. Low sec pirat has to worry about the fact that someone can jump in and blow him up when he is waiting for his prey. You dont, because you are sitting in high sec no1 will attack your battle-ready ship. Second point, you dont risk your ship again, do to the fact that all the haulers you are ganking are pre-screned for the loot without a hauler even being aware that he is scanned due to the use of passive targeters. So you never miss or lose more then you get in return. Could there be anything easier then this? High sec ganking is 0 risk, all profit, easy way of collecting ISK. And thats a fact otherwise you wouldnt do it. Losing sec status is a problem, but then who cares? One good gank can net you 500-1000 mil ISK and if you do it 2-3 times per month, you can easy keep your status positive with casual rating in 0.0 and keep all the ISK. You are IMO abusing the game, and I'm sure CCP would fix it easy removing insurance for the ships killed by Concord, problem is a lot of people that are losing ships to Concord by excident will be cut short and I'm sure that not in a best interest for the game. Here is the problem with that, currently the game rules and mechanics state that: 1- Concord is a God NPC that really can't be killed. 2- It is illegal to evade concord. This means suicide gankers are 100% guaranteed to lose their ship. An insurance nerf heavily favors the NPC corp hauler who will almost never have anything to fear. If insurance is to be nerfed, then Concord should be nerfed and criminal actions should not guarantee loss of a ship. -Sig Starts- Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER! --If I were god, then I'd nerf mice and men, like in that sayin
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 06:22:00 - [509] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 06:22:51 Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 24/09/2007 06:10:49 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 05:57:52 Originally by: Lorde Falcao Total nonsense, because its in your interest. So you say CCP should leave it the way it is, but you are not getting rich not risking anything right? You my friend are not risking one thing for doing this for a few reasons. Low sec pirat has to worry about the fact that someone can jump in and blow him up when he is waiting for his prey. You dont, because you are sitting in high sec no1 will attack your battle-ready ship. Second point, you dont risk your ship again, do to the fact that all the haulers you are ganking are pre-screned for the loot without a hauler even being aware that he is scanned due to the use of passive targeters. So you never miss or lose more then you get in return. Could there be anything easier then this? High sec ganking is 0 risk, all profit, easy way of collecting ISK. And thats a fact otherwise you wouldnt do it. Losing sec status is a problem, but then who cares? One good gank can net you 500-1000 mil ISK and if you do it 2-3 times per month, you can easy keep your status positive with casual rating in 0.0 and keep all the ISK. You are IMO abusing the game, and I'm sure CCP would fix it easy removing insurance for the ships killed by Concord, problem is a lot of people that are losing ships to Concord by excident will be cut short and I'm sure that not in a best interest for the game. Here is the problem with that, currently the game rules and mechanics state that: 1- Concord is a God NPC that really can't be killed. 2- It is illegal to evade concord. This means suicide gankers are 100% guaranteed to lose their ship. An insurance nerf heavily favors the NPC corp hauler who will almost never have anything to fear. If insurance is to be nerfed, then Concord should be nerfed and criminal actions should not guarantee loss of a ship. As far as I am concerned CCP can remove Concord from the game. Then I could have my corp mates fly ahead and kill anything on the way thats presenting the danger to my frieghter/hauler the same way its done in low sec or 0.0 space. Problem is, you cant attack high sec gankers, they are HIDING behind Concord and are impossibile to kill until they see a hauler. That is the real problem with high sec gankers, they are immune and protected in hig sec unless its a hauler they are about to "PVP" with.
Thrust SSC	Posted - 2007.09.24 06:41:00 - [510] Edited by: Thrust SSC on 24/09/2007 06:42:36 Originally by: Humpalot - Design some way to properly escort a ship like a freighter. Maybe make it so anyone targetting the freighter while under escort gets a lock on the escorts instead so they HAVE to deal with the escorts. I dunno...just one idea and there are others. Just something to make escorting worthwhile rather than just being there to try and beat the pirates to the loot once they kill you. Although I'm not opposed to your idea it should be the other way around. The suiciders should be able to target whoever they want, but have escorts automatically target whoever is targeting the ship they're escorting. I'd never want hi-sec to be completely safe. In fact, it it became that way I'd quit (this, coming from a miner carebear). It does need to be harder, and more of a risk than it currently is.

Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2007.09.24 08:26:00 - [511] Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 24/09/2007 08:26:42 Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 24/09/2007 08:26:16 Originally by: Lavinrac Krad An insurance nerf heavily favors the NPC corp hauler who will almost never have anything to fear. If that is all that troubles you, CCP should/could change the high-end ship skills so they don't work unless you're in a player corp. They don't work on trial accounts either. Just whip up some explanation, like "NPC corps are afraid of becoming too much a target, should they roam the universe with capital/big ships, thus they don't allow their use." -------------------------------------------------- I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.24 11:27:00 - [512] Originally by: Sendraks I'd agree to that IF the change allowed for NPC corps to be war-dec'd or NPC corps were done away with altogether. Otherwise the reality is that you're then just creating an "untouchable" class of players, almost totally immune to PvP. If that happens, EvE is pretty much dead. I think thats a little over-dramatic. EVE was not dead before freighter ganking came along and it is that "untouchable" class of players who pay the bills. I'd imagine the reverse is sadly true, without the protection of NPC corps EVE would die. How many thousands of alts are there under NPC protection? How many mains? People are gong to have to come to terms with the fact that "here thar be care-bears" and that the majority of accounts are said care-bears. NPC corp "shielding" is a game mechanic that is working as intended to keep accounts in the game. It's not the ideal solution, personally I'm not happy with it, but there is no alternative. What we actually need is: > War-Decs required for looting rights in hi-sec. > Unique lo-sec content. If we have unique lo-sec content that people want but can't be obtained anywhere else then the profit margins will balance themselves and profiteers will head on out there and make targets of themselves fixing the terrible state of piracy. An explanation for those who don't immediately see the implication: Item X is available only in lo-sec, it's the kind of thing that is in very high demand, similar to items such as pirate implants, faction gear, and certain rigs. People will want to pay the minimum for these items but high-end players want them pretty bad so it will be competition between those gathering Item X (or it's components) from lo-sec that sets the price. Said lo-sec care-bear types will be aware of their need to cover losses, and supply should never meet demand due to the same kind of pattern we see with CCC and X-Type Shield reps, we all want them but supply is limited. If everyone starts flooding over there to farm Item X, prices will drop to the point people aren't making a profit after losses and the population will drop back down again... it's largely self-regulating. Alliances and corps will no doubt try to farm Item X in the best areas for it (and there should be areas of differing quality so that the lone/small gang care-bears and lone/small time pirates can get some fun) which will mean much pew pew as pirate alliances try to steal Item X from them before they can get it to empire. Wise pirates will ensure the locals still make a good profit so that they can "farm" them instead of scaring them off and likely won't be happy with any other pirates messing with their flock. Of course this only happens in the high concentration areas, most of lo-sec should remain available to any small corp willing to take the risk to set-up there and and small pirate groups looking to prey on them. So the carebears cover their losses and make better profit than the hi-sec huggers, the pirates get kills and profitable loot, and hi-sec remains as it is so as not to cause loss of subscribers. It's like fishing, you put out the bait and they will come, but they're not going to head to down to the fishermen when they can get all the same food upstream. tl;dr version: Hi-sec isn't broken, lo-sec is. The only reason freighter ganking is likely allowed to continue is to keep the pirate population subscribing if it wasn't allowed attention would once again be drawn to terrible state of lo-sec profits and piracy.
Serenity Steele Dynamic Data Distribution	Posted - 2007.09.24 11:43:00 - [513] Not sure if It's answered above, but the solution (suggested previously) to piracy in general is this: Make Kill revenge killing rights as a certificate/assignable object. Ganker A kills weak Player B, Player B assigns kill right to Bounty Hunter C Bounty hunter C goes large on Ganker A with Concords blessing. This way, if ganker A kills you, you pass (or auction) the kill rights to a local bounty hunter, and concord lets the bounty hunter kill the ganker. Ofc. The "revenge kill" needs to last for a decent amount of time. Added Bonus: Love to the bounty hunter profession. Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert - Sovereign Systems - Alliance Rank
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.24 12:08:00 - [514] Originally by: Serenity Steele Not sure if It's answered above, but the solution (suggested previously) to piracy in general is this: Make Kill revenge killing rights as a certificate/assignable object. Ganker A kills weak Player B, Player B assigns kill right to Bounty Hunter C Bounty hunter C goes large on Ganker A with Concords blessing. This way, if ganker A kills you, you pass (or auction) the kill rights to a local bounty hunter, and concord lets the bounty hunter kill the ganker. Ofc. The "revenge kill" needs to last for a decent amount of time. Added Bonus: Love to the bounty hunter profession. That is the smartest bounty hunter boost I have ever heard.
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.24 14:33:00 - [515] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 06:22:51 Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Edited by: Lavinrac Krad on 24/09/2007 06:10:49 Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 05:57:52 Originally by: Lorde Falcao Total nonsense, because its in your interest. So you say CCP should leave it the way it is, but you are not getting rich not risking anything right? You my friend are not risking one thing for doing this for a few reasons. Low sec pirat has to worry about the fact that someone can jump in and blow him up when he is waiting for his prey. You dont, because you are sitting in high sec no1 will attack your battle-ready ship. Second point, you dont risk your ship again, do to the fact that all the haulers you are ganking are pre-screned for the loot without a hauler even being aware that he is scanned due to the use of passive targeters. So you never miss or lose more then you get in return. Could there be anything easier then this? High sec ganking is 0 risk, all profit, easy way of collecting ISK. And thats a fact otherwise you wouldnt do it. Losing sec status is a problem, but then who cares? One good gank can net you 500-1000 mil ISK and if you do it 2-3 times per month, you can easy keep your status positive with casual rating in 0.0 and keep all the ISK. You are IMO abusing the game, and I'm sure CCP would fix it easy removing insurance for the ships killed by Concord, problem is a lot of people that are losing ships to Concord by excident will be cut short and I'm sure that not in a best interest for the game. Here is the problem with that, currently the game rules and mechanics state that: 1- Concord is a God NPC that really can't be killed. 2- It is illegal to evade concord. This means suicide gankers are 100% guaranteed to lose their ship. An insurance nerf heavily favors the NPC corp hauler who will almost never have anything to fear. If insurance is to be nerfed, then Concord should be nerfed and criminal actions should not guarantee loss of a ship. As far as I am concerned CCP can remove Concord from the game. Then I could have my corp mates fly ahead and kill anything on the way thats presenting the danger to my frieghter/hauler the same way its done in low sec or 0.0 space. Problem is, you cant attack high sec gankers, they are HIDING behind Concord and are impossibile to kill until they see a hauler. That is the real problem with high sec gankers, they are immune and protected in hig sec unless its a hauler they are about to "PVP" with. So instead you want to be impossible to kill in highsec? Yeah that sounds balanced and fair. I dont get it if a pirate corp can muster the ships and numbers needed to gank you, what makes it so hard for you to muster enough people to help defend it? I mean 90% of the times having a scout in front of you could probably save you. And then you have cmd boosts and bring enough people in logistics ships. Split the cargo into several diffrent shipments. You have so many ways of avoiding ganks but like several other people already said you are just to lazy to deal with it, and the easiest way for you is to whine to get youre way as you have with lots of things in eve.
Karlemgne The Malevolent The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.24 15:32:00 - [516] Originally by: Creed Richards This may have been spoken before, I apologize if it was. Tell me CCP, were suicide gankers really what you intended? Do you have to provide a potentially large reward for them to seek out and hunt in areas that should be safe? Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is low security and 0.0 space. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of greifing in that area as well, but that is another question. But what of people, who willingly sacrifice their own ships to get a reward, and use alts or non agressors to gather the loot? You've heard this before CCP, I've seen complaints about these people, what is this game if people who want to be safe no longer are? Why have you not done anything? Would that not hurt your business, there are people here who just want to live in safety, and they have a right to do that, just as much as pirates have a right to do what they do. Some people do this just to greif new players, do you want that?! Why have you not done anything? But now, you've given suicide gankers the ultimate prize, loot from freighters. You give them the ability to destroy billions in investment, whether they are AFK or not, irrespective of the safety high security space should provide. Is high security (.5-1.0) space supposed to be safe or not? You can have freighter drop loot, but you MUST counteract it with greater protections in high sec. These protections must also affect those that choose to work in security. Those who wish to work predominantly in high security space, where they hope for security, have just as much a right to play they game as they desire as pirates in low sec. Do not allow suicide gankers or greifers destroy that security, or you might as well set every system's security status to 0.4 or below. My 2 cents, God Bless Creed Richards Those that wish to sign this petition, please do. Suicide ganking is an intended game mechanic. High security space is supposed to be safer than low sec, but not perfectly "safe." Need I quote that Wrangler aphorism to you? You know the one, about EVE not being a land of happy adventures, and that ultimately suggests that should you want a land of happy adventure, you'd best cancel your eve subscription, and start playing Hello Kitty Online. -Karl
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2007.09.24 15:42:00 - [517] Originally by: Gaia Thorn I dont get it if a pirate corp can muster the ships and numbers needed to gank you, what makes it so hard for you to muster enough people to help defend it? Erm, pirate corps EXIST for that sole purpose(ganking), but other corps don't? I fail to see how it is much work for a pirate corp to get enough people willing to "sacrifice" their ships to kill a freighter. Isn't that what they want to do anyway? -------------------------------------------------- I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner.
Karlemgne The Malevolent The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.24 15:43:00 - [518] Originally by: Spenz I like all the pie-rats going "haha tutorial said that 1.0 space is as safe as low sec it says so dont you see it noob!?1" and "haha now you have to protect your freighters in high sec you bunch of farmers and isk hoarders!!!1" Well hi sec is safer....but only for the pie-rats, since concord attacks defenders as well as aggressors, so there is nothing a defender can do to protect himself or his cargo from a pie-rat who WANTS to die and his merry band of alt-thieves. This ironically coincides with the ludicrous notion that a player can actually DEFEND his freighter and its cargo in hi-sec with concord around. What happens if you shoot the alts (which will be in NPC corps)? BOOM you lose ANOTHER ship, but this time to concord. I like the beacon idea. Ive seen them in 0.0 around some gates and their description is interesting. Making Space Lanes using beacons would be a nice addition. Hi sec doesnt have to be completely safe, but thats what wardecs are for you noobs. Suicide ganking with alts is the ONLY 100% safe form of income you can get, and ironically its the people boasting about how hi-sec isnt safe who do it and/or support it. That's not true. If pirate X agros Freighter pilot Y in hi-sec, and pirate X is not at war with Freighter pilot Y, then pirate X will get a global criminal countdown. At this point concord will begin to spawn (the quickness depending on the security rating of the particular system) and pilot Z, who is running protection for Freighter pilot Y, can now fire on pirate X legally, without having to worry about concord. There are a few things that could change this, I hinted at them earlier. One is a war dec, one is having the pirate have kill rights on the Freighter pilot, and one is the Freighter pilot being agro'd to the pirate because of can theft. However, if you are moving a Freighter with hostiles around during a war, if your Freighter pilot is also a pirate with lots of people having kill rights on him, or if your Freighter pilot has been stealing from cans right before he makes a Freighter run, then you are being extremely dumb, and deserve to get ganked. -Karl
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 17:50:00 - [519] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 17:53:29 Originally by: Gaia Thorn So instead you want to be impossible to kill in highsec? Yeah that sounds balanced and fair. I dont get it if a pirate corp can muster the ships and numbers needed to gank you, what makes it so hard for you to muster enough people to help defend it? I mean 90% of the times having a scout in front of you could probably save you. And then you have cmd boosts and bring enough people in logistics ships. Split the cargo into several diffrent shipments. You have so many ways of avoiding ganks but like several other people already said you are just to lazy to deal with it, and the easiest way for you is to whine to get youre way as you have with lots of things in eve. Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesn matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. Scouting doesnt help because, as someone already said you cant say who will attack a hauler when there is 200 pilots in local and 50 at the gate. There is no sign on the ship that says "Suicide ganker" and if Concord cant prevent ship destruction in 20 or so seconds, when it comes to suicide attacks, why do you think escort gang would be able to when gank is already in progress? The only way to prevent attacks is to commit a pre-emptive attack on anyone thats sitting at the gates hauler is about to go thru, but cant be done because of Concord protection gankers are using to hide until they pick and chose who they will attack. As for the killing in high sec feel free to wardec and attack anyone you feel like. Thats what the wardec is for.
John Blackthrone Caldari Fnord Works	Posted - 2007.09.24 18:54:00 - [520] /signed

RisenPhoenix Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.24 19:01:00 - [521] Originally by: Serenity Steele Not sure if It's answered above, but the solution (suggested previously) to piracy in general is this: Make Kill revenge killing rights as a certificate/assignable object. Ganker A kills weak Player B, Player B assigns kill right to Bounty Hunter C Bounty hunter C goes large on Ganker A with Concords blessing. This way, if ganker A kills you, you pass (or auction) the kill rights to a local bounty hunter, and concord lets the bounty hunter kill the ganker. Ofc. The "revenge kill" needs to last for a decent amount of time. Added Bonus: Love to the bounty hunter profession. Now that is a good idea ------------------------------------------------
Valrandir Gallente Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.24 19:05:00 - [522] no -------------------------------- This has surpassed the Yarrdware specification and has been dubbed Uberware - Oveur
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.24 19:14:00 - [523] Suicide ganking isn't as easy as people make it out to be. Its like fishing, you often have to wait hours to catch anything at all and even when you do it can get away (destroyed with the ship).
Jade190	Posted - 2007.09.24 19:15:00 - [524] Edited by: Jade190 on 24/09/2007 19:15:25 Just don't carry so much stuff (or stuff worth so much). It's not that difficult. You guys are stupid or something. You keep doing the SAME THING that gets you killed and expect different results every time. ****ing Morons
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 19:50:00 - [525] Originally by: Jade190 Edited by: Jade190 on 24/09/2007 19:15:25 Just don't carry so much stuff (or stuff worth so much). It's not that difficult. You guys are stupid or something. You keep doing the SAME THING that gets you killed and expect different results every time. ****ing Morons Wow, now thats a good post. You can see people with high IQ from far,far away
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 20:09:00 - [526] Originally by: Raneru Suicide ganking isn't as easy as people make it out to be. Its like fishing, you often have to wait hours to catch anything at all and even when you do it can get away (destroyed with the ship). Well if thats going to net you 200-500 mil or more isk then its worth camping that gate for hours no? Better then rating in the belts, running missions, mining etc etc....
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.24 22:21:00 - [527] Edited by: Sendraks on 24/09/2007 22:21:59 Originally by: Ridley Scot Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. This is what we call, factual inaccuracy. I would call this a lie, but as the poster appears to be blissfully unaware of the truth, they are unable to deliberately try to misinform others. Originally by: Ridley Scot Scouting doesnt help because, as someone already said you cant say who will attack a hauler when there is 200 pilots in local and 50 at the gate. Get a decent scout perhaps? That'd be a start. Avoid systems where the traffic round the gates is very high (aka, stay the hell away from Jita) so the scout can see what is at the gates and whats not? That'd also be very good. Again, not fool proof, but far, far better than living in self pitying world of "Oh noes, there is nothing I can doez!" Originally by: Ridley Scot This problem is not about ôpirate û carebearö relations in EVE. This is something that can potentially affect everyone in EVE and affect the game in a very bad way. It is not as bad as it can be because it still did not reach epidemical proportions but it will eventually when more people figure out how easy and risk free it is. The more people suicide gank in high sec, less people will haul. That will stop trade and production, and anyone with half brain can see how that will affect the prices on the market for just about everything, from minerals to tech 2 ships and modules that we all will have to pay including suicide gankers. At the end, all regional markets in high sec could look like any other 0.0 market where you just cannot buy anything because there is none for sale. It will be easier to sit at the gate and wait for someone to go thru so you can suicide gank him and take his stuff. The problem of hi-sec ganking is not new. Not by a long shot. It has been known about for a very long time. The reason more people are not doing it is because it is not everyone's cup of tea. Not everyone wants to play the game this way. Not everyone cares about easy ISKs (and if they did, e-bay is a damn sight easier). Besides, there is also a point where suicide ganking becomes non-viable, as there won't be the income for it. Plus there will be too much competition between suicide gankers for targets, so who knows, they might start ganking each other? The situation would stablise long before your hysteria fueled doomsday scenario came about. Trade and production will not stop. Suicide ganking is primarily located round the main trade routes and hubs. The smart players will simply take a small hit on their profits and sell their goods elsewhere. The smart players will fly smart, fit smart and escort smart. The smart players are doing this already. The smart players aren't getting ganked, be it hi-sec or 0.0.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 23:35:00 - [528] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:40:03 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:39:45 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:37:56 Originally by: Sendraks Whatever you said..... Repeating the same useless stuff... I could go over your post and try explain why most of your "smart" post is a bunch of useless rubish, but I'm just to lazy to type that much at the moment. I will mention one part though because its, well too funny. "Stay out of Jita", main trade hub and just about the only place you can buy certain stuff very much needed for production, is that your advice to me? Or is that the place a trader should stay away from? I think you are running out of things that "smart" people do....
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.24 23:42:00 - [529] Quote: Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. If you believe this rubbish, you deserve to get suicide-ganked. Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.24 23:52:00 - [530] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:53:54 Originally by: Augeas Quote: Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. If you believe this rubbish, you deserve to get suicide-ganked. Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill. Smartbomber BS escort? Best advice ever to get Concorded, same for ECM burst... I think clean socks and warm clothes would work better then anything... to prevent a simple game imperfection.

Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.09.24 23:57:00 - [531] Just make haulers invincible in high sec That has got to be better than listening to all these numpties crying about their virtual commodities being lost Please CCP I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:02:00 - [532] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Just make haulers invincible in high sec That has got to be better than listening to all these numpties crying about their virtual commodities being lost Please CCP Destroying haulers in high sec....fine Losing virtual commodities....fine Looting hauler wreck with an alt and getting insurance ISK for a new ship to suicide ..... not fine
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:03:00 - [533] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:53:54 Originally by: Augeas Quote: Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. If you believe this rubbish, you deserve to get suicide-ganked. Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill. Smartbomber BS escort? Best advice ever to get Concorded, same for ECM burst... I think clean socks and warm clothes would work better then anything... to prevent a simple game imperfection. Nice of you to ignore his other points. What about logistics ships? Or EW ships like a rook? Or simply using a nanoed blockade runner which warp as fast as an interceptor and is basically ungankable in highsec? Suicide ganking relys on the stupidity of people in eve. Its kinda funny how the suicide gankers themselves, when hauling their loot to sell in jita never gets ganked. Its called taking measures to protect yourself.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:08:00 - [534] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:09:54 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:08:57 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:53:54 Originally by: Augeas Quote: Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. If you believe this rubbish, you deserve to get suicide-ganked. Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill. Smartbomber BS escort? Best advice ever to get Concorded, same for ECM burst... I think clean socks and warm clothes would work better then anything... to prevent a simple game imperfection. Nice of you to ignore his other points. What about logistics ships? Or EW ships like a rook? Or simply using a nanoed blockade runner which warp as fast as an interceptor and is basically ungankable in highsec? Suicide ganking relys on the stupidity of people in eve. Its kinda funny how the suicide gankers themselves, when hauling their loot to sell in jita never gets ganked. Its called taking measures to protect yourself. Speaking of small fast ships...... kill1 and then some blockade runners...... kill2 oh wait I guess he wasnt fitted for tank.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:13:00 - [535] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:09:54 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:08:57 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 24/09/2007 23:53:54 Originally by: Augeas Quote: Defending a hauler in high sec is pretty much impossible. It doesnt matter what ship type is used, or fittings, hauler will be destroyed. If you believe this rubbish, you deserve to get suicide-ganked. Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill. Smartbomber BS escort? Best advice ever to get Concorded, same for ECM burst... I think clean socks and warm clothes would work better then anything... to prevent a simple game imperfection. Nice of you to ignore his other points. What about logistics ships? Or EW ships like a rook? Or simply using a nanoed blockade runner which warp as fast as an interceptor and is basically ungankable in highsec? Suicide ganking relys on the stupidity of people in eve. Its kinda funny how the suicide gankers themselves, when hauling their loot to sell in jita never gets ganked. Its called taking measures to protect yourself. Speaking of small fast ships...... kill1 and then some blockade runners...... kill2 oh wait I guess he wasnt fitted for tank. You're not real bright are ya? Prove those two werent afk. The fastest ship wont save you if you slowboat to every gate. In addition, that blockade runner has cargo expanders, not nanos.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:28:00 - [536] Originally by: Gamesguy You're not real bright are ya? Prove those two werent afk. The fastest ship wont save you if you slowboat to every gate. In addition, that blockade runner has cargo expanders, not nanos. Three questions for you from a stupid guy. 1) Do you gank in high sec? 2) Do you earn a nice amount of ISK doing so? 3) Do you want it to stay that way? I hope questions are not too hard and you will be able to answer, because you are smart.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:32:00 - [537] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy You're not real bright are ya? Prove those two werent afk. The fastest ship wont save you if you slowboat to every gate. In addition, that blockade runner has cargo expanders, not nanos. Three questions for you from a stupid guy. 1) Do you gank in high sec? 2) Do you earn a nice amount of ISK doing so? 3) Do you want it to stay that way? I hope questions are not too hard and you will be able to answer, because you are smart. You're avoiding the point. How come my alt never gets ganked when I carry a billion isk worth of stuff? Oh thats right, because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:38:00 - [538] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:45:08 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy You're not real bright are ya? Prove those two werent afk. The fastest ship wont save you if you slowboat to every gate. In addition, that blockade runner has cargo expanders, not nanos. Three questions for you from a stupid guy. 1) Do you gank in high sec? 2) Do you earn a nice amount of ISK doing so? 3) Do you want it to stay that way? I hope questions are not too hard and you will be able to answer, because you are smart. You're avoiding the point. How come my alt never gets ganked when I carry a billion isk worth of stuff? Oh thats right, because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec. Well, maybe because you have an IQ higher then most of us, I guess. We, other average people have average IQ and therefore we do get killed transporting stuff, even in high sec sometimes.
Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:54:00 - [539] Edited by: Zephlin Abath on 25/09/2007 00:54:41 This gets to 18 (Make this post the start of the 19th) pages in length and someone spawns another topic like this with a diffrent name. You do realise all this whining is just inspiring more people to become suicide gankers? But I think I did try and put in a semi-helpful suggestion many pages ago, but people are not willing to listen to intelligent alternatives and still demand invincability. Why not do what is within your power and make it harded to be ganked? I'm sure out of the 18 pages there are some really intelligent helpful suggestions to keep you alive.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:00:00 - [540] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 00:45:08 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy You're not real bright are ya? Prove those two werent afk. The fastest ship wont save you if you slowboat to every gate. In addition, that blockade runner has cargo expanders, not nanos. Three questions for you from a stupid guy. 1) Do you gank in high sec? 2) Do you earn a nice amount of ISK doing so? 3) Do you want it to stay that way? I hope questions are not too hard and you will be able to answer, because you are smart. You're avoiding the point. How come my alt never gets ganked when I carry a billion isk worth of stuff? Oh thats right, because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec. Well, maybe because you have an IQ higher then most of us, I guess. We, other average people have average IQ and therefore we do get killed transporting stuff, even in high sec sometimes. Well then the problem isnt with game mechanic, but rather the stupidity of some of the empire dwelling population. Thank you for admitting there isnt a problem. You have to consider the fact that most of the people have average IQ so the game should be tailored to fit them. Gems like you, are hard to find and most of the things will be just too easy for your kind. But again, there is a problem with the game, it shouldnt be balanced for the people with high IQ like yours. Game will have to be balanced to be playable for the most of the players and most of us are just average people. So, to bring this post to conclusion, you have to think about other players in this game and not only yourself when you say "because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec". Some people just might not have as much brain as you, or maybe cant fly a blockade runner, who knows?

Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:07:00 - [541] humm, well ther is alot of stupidity around....but lets get back to ganking... to all the moaner - just try it once. seriously, what you need is 4 t1 junk cruisers (which means you have to keep pips waiting and doing nothing for up to 3 houres) or 1 bc with good fittings depending on your skills. + a hauler( pilot of which will have to wait unless he is your alt) sit on the gate, scan for 3-4 houres on a week day. jugle 2 clients if you have an alt trying ot insure that in the end no one steals your loot. read the kill mail that says that all 100 t2 units of some exquipment or other was destroid, and now you have to mision for houres to get yout security back, and all you have is some nano fiberes to show for it. do this, then come back to this forum an tell me how the system favours the gankers. well, moving on form that - there are so many mechanisms in the game not to get ganked at the gate in hight sec: jump to 0 is one of them. and for escorts beeing usless, well, as soon as someone loots the wreck of your corp mate you can kill them, ther hauler will pop just as fast. whats the problem? the fact is that oyu cant just fit the game to work ofr you. ps if you want ccp to chenge it so that you can hull afk i demand that they also make it posible to gank afk in high sec, afrer all why should i do 3 houres of hard work if you dont have to. and then everyone will be have to. and before posting "why doesnt ccp do anything about it" remmeber - it is becouse its part of the game and not an exploit.
Sterkur Amarr Imperium Forces	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:08:00 - [542] not signed, don't be stupid ──────────── Imperium Forces Strength through unity - Unity through force
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:11:00 - [543] Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister afrer all why should i do 3 houres of hard work if you dont have to. and then everyone will be have to. You are kiding right? What is your 3 hours of your "hard work" camping the gate compared to 50 hours it took some noob to salvage 800 or so rig components???
Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:14:00 - [544] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister afrer all why should i do 3 houres of hard work if you dont have to. and then everyone will be have to. You are kiding right? What is your 3 hours of your "hard work" camping the gate compared to 50 hours it took some noob to salvage 800 or so rig components??? And why should it be a free ride for them after that?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:17:00 - [545] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 01:23:08 Originally by: Zephlin Abath Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Anacrit Mc'Sinister afrer all why should i do 3 houres of hard work if you dont have to. and then everyone will be have to. You are kiding right? What is your 3 hours of your "hard work" camping the gate compared to 50 hours it took some noob to salvage 800 or so rig components??? And why should it be a free ride for them after that? Because it a free ride for you. You are sitting in that high sec system waiting for someone to suicide, protected by Concord, and you dont have to worry about being attacked. You decide to engage in combat when YOU think its time to do so, protected by Concord and only if its worth it. Its lame because you engage ONLY when you are ready, and you dont get to be attacked when you are not. Talking about consensual and non-consensual combat....
Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:26:00 - [546] So you are implying you should be able to run free without a care in highsec? Where is the fun in that? Sure you spent the past week flying around gathering salvage just so you can make some rigs to make some isk. But even so, why should the gankers be robbed of their 3 pain staking hours waiting for the mother load, and face it I bet there are days when they could sit there for 6 and see nothing worth ganking. This game is built for team work, otherwise you wouldn't have supporting class ships. What is so hard finding people to help you on your travel, or looking for a maybe longer but safer route, or shifting your point of sale to another system, oh heaven forbid! shifting out of Jita? Noooo! Yes really... If your selling something that someone wants, an extra 3 hops wont kill them will it? And if your buying from within Jita, get a smaller ship, shift it 3 hops away then put it all in your freighter.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:29:00 - [547] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 01:32:53 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 01:31:21 I for one, never sell anything in Jita, I always and only buy stuff in Jita fyi. And I dont salvage, this character is a research alt. I was talking about some guy that ended up on the killboard, losing his stuff to suicide gankers. But I wish people would read threads from the first to the last post before jumping in and post something Repeating same old stuff is just not constructive.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:42:00 - [548] Originally by: Ridley Scot You have to consider the fact that most of the people have average IQ so the game should be tailored to fit them. Gems like you, are hard to find and most of the things will be just too easy for your kind. But again, there is a problem with the game, it shouldnt be balanced for the people with high IQ like yours. Game will have to be balanced to be playable for the most of the players and most of us are just average people. So, to bring this post to conclusion, you have to think about other players in this game and not only yourself when you say "because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec". Some people just might not have as much brain as you, or maybe cant fly a blockade runner, who knows? Stupidity is not a defense. And it doesnt take a genius to figure out how to avoid highsec ganks. If you are a lowsec/0.0 dweller, you already have experience in dodging gate camps. Highsec gate camps are weaker than lowsec/0.0 ones, so if you fit to avoid a bubble camp, then highsec is a cakewalk.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 01:48:00 - [549] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot You have to consider the fact that most of the people have average IQ so the game should be tailored to fit them. Gems like you, are hard to find and most of the things will be just too easy for your kind. But again, there is a problem with the game, it shouldnt be balanced for the people with high IQ like yours. Game will have to be balanced to be playable for the most of the players and most of us are just average people. So, to bring this post to conclusion, you have to think about other players in this game and not only yourself when you say "because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec". Some people just might not have as much brain as you, or maybe cant fly a blockade runner, who knows? Stupidity is not a defense. And it doesnt take a genius to figure out how to avoid highsec ganks. If you are a lowsec/0.0 dweller, you already have experience in dodging gate camps. Highsec gate camps are weaker than lowsec/0.0 ones, so if you fit to avoid a bubble camp, then highsec is a cakewalk. Stupidity meet Irony. Irony meet Stupidity.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.25 02:38:00 - [550] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot You have to consider the fact that most of the people have average IQ so the game should be tailored to fit them. Gems like you, are hard to find and most of the things will be just too easy for your kind. But again, there is a problem with the game, it shouldnt be balanced for the people with high IQ like yours. Game will have to be balanced to be playable for the most of the players and most of us are just average people. So, to bring this post to conclusion, you have to think about other players in this game and not only yourself when you say "because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec". Some people just might not have as much brain as you, or maybe cant fly a blockade runner, who knows? Stupidity is not a defense. And it doesnt take a genius to figure out how to avoid highsec ganks. If you are a lowsec/0.0 dweller, you already have experience in dodging gate camps. Highsec gate camps are weaker than lowsec/0.0 ones, so if you fit to avoid a bubble camp, then highsec is a cakewalk. Stupidity meet Irony. Irony meet Stupidity. Concession accepted troll.

Zephlin Abath Core Element	Posted - 2007.09.25 03:40:00 - [551] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 01:32:53 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 01:31:21 I for one, never sell anything in Jita, I always and only buy stuff in Jita fyi. And I dont salvage, this character is a research alt. I was talking about some guy that ended up on the killboard, losing his stuff to suicide gankers. But I wish people would read threads from the first to the last post before jumping in and post something Repeating same old stuff is just not constructive. Why read 19 pages of rubbish? There are suggestions on how to combat it, and I've kept well within the topic at hand, not following on from someones variations of it... I think. I am how every trying to offer helpful alternatives to the whining, but if alternatives and intelligent ways to avoid it is not what your after, go petition it to CCP directly.
Oedus Caro Caldari Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.09.25 04:59:00 - [552] Originally by: Ridley Scot You have to consider the fact that most of the people have average IQ so the game should be tailored to fit them. Gems like you, are hard to find and most of the things will be just too easy for your kind. But again, there is a problem with the game, it shouldnt be balanced for the people with high IQ like yours. Game will have to be balanced to be playable for the most of the players and most of us are just average people. So, to bring this post to conclusion, you have to think about other players in this game and not only yourself when you say "because I have a brain and uses wtz with a nano blockade runner, making myself effectively invulnerable in highsec". Some people just might not have as much brain as you, or maybe cant fly a blockade runner, who knows? Well, first of all I'd like to point out that it really isn't an issue of IQ. The problem is that too many people lack the good sense to think about the game they're playing when they decide to transport their valuables. Wake up, folks, this isn't WoW: if you can't be bothered to give your valuables the appropriate care, it will only be your fault when you lose them. But as for matters where the problem really is player IQ (or rather, the lack thereof), I disagree. Keep the game challenging! If you don't spoon-feed the player base, it will evolve over time to become smarter and cleverer than it would otherwise be. Because of her difficulty, EVE already is, to an extent, populated by smarter people than other MMO's, and those who play the game tend to express a degree of pride that this is so. Let's keep it that way.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.25 07:16:00 - [553] Fly with an escort. For example 2 logistics ships are practically ungankable in high sec. The needed firepower to take them down costs way much more than any profit possible. Or just two BS with remote reps. There is no excuse to being ganked in high sec, there are no bubbles, no nothing to make it even difficult to avoid being ganked... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 08:24:00 - [554] Originally by: Serenity Steele Not sure if It's answered above, but the solution (suggested previously) to piracy in general is this: Make Kill revenge killing rights as a certificate/assignable object. Ganker A kills weak Player B, Player B assigns kill right to Bounty Hunter C Bounty hunter C goes large on Ganker A with Concords blessing. This way, if ganker A kills you, you pass (or auction) the kill rights to a local bounty hunter, and concord lets the bounty hunter kill the ganker. Ofc. The "revenge kill" needs to last for a decent amount of time. Added Bonus: Love to the bounty hunter profession. After losing 3+ billion I doubt the pilot is likely to be willing to shell out bounties for on gankers. It's not ganker A, it's ganker a,b,c,d,e.... well from 30-100 pilots. Though I do love the idea in general and it works great for the guy who gets killed by one or two people, sadly that doesn't happen in hi-sec, only lo-sec.
Lucre STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.25 09:28:00 - [555] Originally by: Gaia Thorn I dont get it if a pirate corp can muster the ships and numbers needed to gank you, what makes it so hard for you to muster enough people to help defend it? That's like saying you can get a stack of people to show up for your boozy BBQ so what makes it so hard to get anyone to come and help dig your garden. Answer, one's a party, one's a chore. Same with ganking and escorting.
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.25 09:52:00 - [556] Originally by: Ridley Scot Repeating the same useless stuff... I could go over your post and try explain why most of your "smart" post is a bunch of useless rubish, but I'm just to lazy to type that much at the moment. Its not because you're lazy, it is because you can't. You have no idea what you are talking about and daren't start posting supposing factual information because you'll know it'll get ripped apart. Feel free to bring it on though, I promise you won't get far. Originally by: Ridley Scot I will mention one part though because its, well too funny. "Stay out of Jita", main trade hub and just about the only place you can buy certain stuff very much needed for production, is that your advice to me? Or is that the place a trader should stay away from? So you want to have your cake and eat it eh? Jita is the busiest system in the game. If you want to avoid lag, you don't go there. If you want to avoid the highest risk of being gate ganked in empire, you don't go there. There are plenty of other places to buy and sell things. THe only reason Jita is the way it is, is because of the sheep like mentality of a portion of the playerbase. And if you absolutely "have" to go to Jita (which for most players I very much doubt is the case) then you go prepared or not at all. You can ignore this advice and "pooh-pooh" this advice to your hearts content, but this basically just amounts to you being unwilling or unable to listen to common sense. Eve is all about risk vs reward. There are risks in going to Jita, if you are prepared to accept them and deal with them, the rewards are yours. Otherwise, you're just whining.
Ogul Caldari ZiTek Deepspace Explorations Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.25 10:13:00 - [557] There is only one thing wrong with suicide ganking: The gankers face no risk whatsoever. Now if you could remove a suicide camp like gate camps in low sec/0.0 it would be a different story... Seriously, high sec protection should not apply for those who break high sec rules - give suiciders a 30 day criminal flag maybe? --- This is a war declaration, issued from your alt corp. It is used to gank people in high sec.
MORRS	Posted - 2007.09.25 12:36:00 - [558] The problem with suiside ganking is that it is not risk vs reward based because when the players sec status drops, he merely sends his alt into bio mass and makes another. The player loses nothing. He sends another alt in to pick up the loot which you can't defend against. He has his ship insured and gets his isk back and gets another. There is absolutly no risk involved for gankers. This is not fair game play and is completely opposite of the game of "Risk vs Reward".
heheheh The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.25 12:40:00 - [559] cry more people
Cheeva MekTor Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:14:00 - [560] I'm not against suicide gankers, but I'm definitely against insurance payouts for them. Paying insurance for suicide ganking simply means Concord is aiding pirates, for insurance fraud. I think suicide gankers are useful in some instances, but don't think that if concord comes and blows your ship away that they should then pay you for criminal acts. -Cheevs

Teasel	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:18:00 - [561] Since CCP are bringing in a (pardon the pun) boatload of new ships with the rev III patch, why not introduce a second tier freighter class? I know this has been mentioned before (can't find the relevant link though ). Give it T2 resists on armor, a shield HP buff (no resist buff though), a base +2 warp scramble strength (like the blockade runner), 1x lowslot to fit a tank mod (like a DCU II for example), a smaller cargo bay (20% less than the current freighters around) and a drone bay which either fits 3x fighters (or whatever amount of the smaller drone types :) ). Price it at around the carrier/dreadnaught mark and make it only available with cap ships lvl 1. All other freighter stats apply with regards to agility etc. This ought to make a more survivable freighter for the owner , which can defend itself without offensive onboard weaponry, while still providing a challenge for the gankers (should they wish to engage a freighter with 60% more effective hull HP's ). Something needs to be done to freighters as they are the only capital class ship that don't require capital skills to fly and have absolutely no means of defence. What i suggested may be one step forward :) dons flameproof suit
Zaphod Jones Minmatar Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.09.25 13:19:00 - [562] I fully support suicide gankers the only safe place is docked, and hopefully with ambulation i'll be able to shoot you there soon :)
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.25 14:13:00 - [563] Quote: Some hints... logistics escorts... ECM Burst... Rapier... smartbomber BS escort... preemptive CONCORD spawning... some semblance of common sense or ship fitting/piloting skill. I fully appreciate that the ECM burst or smartbomber BS escort will get you Concorded. However, those tactics are designed for the defence of freighters - use the ECM Burst to break the locks of the Ogres and their host BS, or just use the smartbombs to blow them up. You only need to disrupt the typical suicide-gang's DPS for a few seconds to let you survive whilst CONCORD rocks up. Of course, yes, you will get Concorded. So what? As many people have stated, T1-fit BS after insurance are fairly cheap, certainly in comparison to a Freighter full of megacyte... And the sec status hit can be ground away after a few hours of missions. There is no defence to a competent, well-planned attack on an afk hauler, and nor should there be. Instead, it's up to you to calculate the number of drones needed to be killed, or their locks broken, or the number of remote repper cycles necessary, or the time-to-warp of a Rapier-webbed Freighter, vs. plausible suicide gang numbers, DPS and reaction time, along with the critical ratio of "your cargo value" to "ships required to gank".
Jade190	Posted - 2007.09.25 14:34:00 - [564] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Jade190 Edited by: Jade190 on 24/09/2007 19:15:25 Just don't carry so much stuff (or stuff worth so much). It's not that difficult. You guys are stupid or something. You keep doing the SAME THING that gets you killed and expect different results every time. **ing Morons Wow, now thats a good post. You can see people with high IQ from far,far away Perhaps crazy is a better word? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? Doesn't seem smart/sane to me, or Albert Einstein. (you sarcastic *** =P ).
Darth Pheonix	Posted - 2007.09.25 14:42:00 - [565] So...after reading 19 pages of insightful comments, I've summed it all up into this: Suicide ganking is broken because we refuse to change our tactics with our afk hauling/we aren't smart enough to do so. AND Suicide ganking is fine because you refuse to change your tactics with hauling/grow a brain and evolve. ....Seems like Darwin needs to be going over his theory about survival of the fittest again
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:09:00 - [566] Originally by: Zaphod Jones I fully support suicide gankers the only safe place is docked, and hopefully with ambulation i'll be able to shoot you there soon :) I will be there.
SULAN BARHIR United League of Independents	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:18:00 - [567] Quit whining and adapt or get the hell out... let us creative minds play the game in a creative way. Stupid whiners make ccp dumb this game down to the level of rock paper scissors.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 17:51:00 - [568] Originally by: SULAN BARHIR Quit whining and adapt or get the hell out... let us creative minds play the game in a creative way. Stupid whiners make ccp dumb this game down to the level of rock paper scissors. Hey, just one whine about this problem before I go to work....
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.25 19:50:00 - [569] Edited by: Zachstar on 25/09/2007 19:50:01 Geez I come back to find a ton of insults and junk thrown. If you can't hold on to basic respect on a topic about a game I strongly suggest you seek help. Something is wrong. --------- Dear CCP A solution was discussed before on this very topic that I think will solve the issue. With simple changes and negotiations the best idea I will support is. #1 No WarDec NO loot in hisec PERIOD. #2 No Insurance for those killed by Concord. #2 Give people in NPC corps 30 days of freedom. Let them go without the issues of being in a corp or having to deal with gankers for atleast 30 days. Afterwards they must be in a corp or they lose concord protection. I hope CCP responds with intentions of such a fix or just fixes it soon!
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:17:00 - [570] Originally by: Zachstar Edited by: Zachstar on 25/09/2007 19:50:01 Geez I come back to find a ton of insults and junk thrown. If you can't hold on to basic respect on a topic about a game I strongly suggest you seek help. Something is wrong. --------- Dear CCP A solution was discussed before on this very topic that I think will solve the issue. With simple changes and negotiations the best idea I will support is. #1 No Insurance for those killed by Concord. #2 Give people in NPC corps 30 days of freedom. Let them go without the issues of being in a corp or having to deal with gankers for atleast 30 days. Afterwards they must be in a corp or they lose concord protection. I hope CCP responds with intentions of such a fix or just fixes it soon! fixed it for you ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!

Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.25 21:22:00 - [571] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 25/09/2007 21:25:41 Well CCP is not responding (not that I expected). I have a better idea, lets turn this thread in high-sec-gankers intel thread. Two of them camping Perimeter gate in Jita (Cormorant and Hound) so watch it out if you are transporting in a small ship.
Onyx Wrathbringer Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.25 23:16:00 - [572] Edited by: Onyx Wrathbringer on 25/09/2007 23:19:36 /hangs hypnotic talisman THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS SUICIDE GANKING, LOSING YOUR UNTANKED T1 HAULER WITH ALL YOUR CORPS ASSESTS IS JUST A DREAM. On the count of three, you will wake up and resume afk auto-piloting your pod to its destination. One.... Two... Th.... Overview Awesomeness!!! Read and Reply!
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.09.26 00:09:00 - [573] Damn so much crying
Zendaren Minmatar Core Domination	Posted - 2007.09.26 00:23:00 - [574] Ok I can't be bothers to read all 20 pages of this but correct me if I'm wrong (skip that don't bother I'm a know it all so I won't believe you anyway) but isn't this game meant to be all PVP. Basically what I'm saying is this is a space sim.. its like real life (ish).. if you walk around town with your bag open and you eyes closed your gonna find yourself on your arse bleeding with an empty bag... period... damn I'm no mugger but if you had a nice full wallet sticking out of that bag even I'd have a go at it. Get used to it THERE IS NO SAFE. check out the first tip here: http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g16.asp "Don't play the game in AFK mode" And do expect that as the player base grows as will the number of suicide gankers due to the plain fact that there will be more targets... fly safe
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 01:39:00 - [575] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 26/09/2007 01:43:27 Originally by: Zendaren Ok I can't be bothers to read all 20 pages of this but correct me if I'm wrong (skip that don't bother I'm a know it all so I won't believe you anyway) but isn't this game meant to be all PVP. Basically what I'm saying is this is a space sim.. its like real life (ish).. if you walk around town with your bag open and you eyes closed your gonna find yourself on your arse bleeding with an empty bag... period... damn I'm no mugger but if you had a nice full wallet sticking out of that bag even I'd have a go at it. Get used to it THERE IS NO SAFE. check out the first tip here: http://www.eve-online.com/guide/en/g16.asp "Don't play the game in AFK mode" And do expect that as the player base grows as will the number of suicide gankers due to the plain fact that there will be more targets... fly safe Since you are comparing this game to the real life..... If I walk around with a bag and a wallet in it, you mug me and in the process my wallet drops out of the bag on the ground, when the cops show up and spank you for mugging me, would they sit and watch your friend walk away with my wallet?
Crazy Broad	Posted - 2007.09.26 02:17:00 - [576] Edited by: Crazy Broad on 26/09/2007 02:17:05 Originally by: Zachstar #2 Give people in NPC corps 30 days of freedom. Let them go without the issues of being in a corp or having to deal with gankers for atleast 30 days. Afterwards they must be in a corp or they lose concord protection. Okay. this is just stupid, a lot of isk farmers sit in newb corps, one of the few ways to combat them is to either find them out doing missions in low sec, or to suicide them. Dont take away one of our only weapons against them. And YES a lot of them are below 30 days and doing missions. ------------------------------ Originally by: Captian Internet This thread isn't delivery its digorno
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 02:18:00 - [577] don't fret crazy lady, ccp has been pretty clear where they stand on the issue, there are just the clueless whiners 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 02:25:00 - [578] Originally by: Crazy Broad Edited by: Crazy Broad on 26/09/2007 02:17:05 Originally by: Zachstar #2 Give people in NPC corps 30 days of freedom. Let them go without the issues of being in a corp or having to deal with gankers for atleast 30 days. Afterwards they must be in a corp or they lose concord protection. Okay. this is just stupid, a lot of isk farmers sit in newb corps, one of the few ways to combat them is to either find them out doing missions in low sec, or to suicide them. Dont take away one of our only weapons against them. And YES a lot of them are below 30 days and doing missions. Suicide ganks are NOT the problem, suicide ganks for the profit are the problem.
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.26 04:05:00 - [579] Originally by: Ridley Scot Since you are comparing this game to the real life..... If I walk around with a bag and a wallet in it, you mug me and in the process my wallet drops out of the bag on the ground, when the cops show up and spank you for mugging me, would they sit and watch your friend walk away with my wallet? This analogy is horrible. It would take the cops enough time to show up that a robber could get away. Stop making comparisons to cops and robbers, no analogy you can think of will hold up.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 04:17:00 - [580] Originally by: Lorde Falcao Originally by: Ridley Scot Since you are comparing this game to the real life..... If I walk around with a bag and a wallet in it, you mug me and in the process my wallet drops out of the bag on the ground, when the cops show up and spank you for mugging me, would they sit and watch your friend walk away with my wallet? This analogy is horrible. It would take the cops enough time to show up that a robber could get away. Stop making comparisons to cops and robbers, no analogy you can think of will hold up. Maybe in Brazil, in US most of them end up in jail...trust me. And it wasn't me that made analogy in the first place.

Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 04:36:00 - [581] whatever you say 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Captian Internet Lead Bricks	Posted - 2007.09.26 04:44:00 - [582] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Lorde Falcao Originally by: Ridley Scot Since you are comparing this game to the real life..... If I walk around with a bag and a wallet in it, you mug me and in the process my wallet drops out of the bag on the ground, when the cops show up and spank you for mugging me, would they sit and watch your friend walk away with my wallet? This analogy is horrible. It would take the cops enough time to show up that a robber could get away. Stop making comparisons to cops and robbers, no analogy you can think of will hold up. Maybe in Brazil, in US most of them end up in jail...trust me. And it wasn't me that made analogy in the first place. Pass the boosters please! It is a well known fact that unless you are the criminal the police will take eons to show up Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 04:46:00 - [583] Originally by: Tortun Nahme whatever you say Well I can speak from my experience only ofcourse, and street mugging is not something you see every day at least where I live....
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 05:37:00 - [584] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Crazy Broad Edited by: Crazy Broad on 26/09/2007 02:17:05 Originally by: Zachstar #2 Give people in NPC corps 30 days of freedom. Let them go without the issues of being in a corp or having to deal with gankers for atleast 30 days. Afterwards they must be in a corp or they lose concord protection. Okay. this is just stupid, a lot of isk farmers sit in newb corps, one of the few ways to combat them is to either find them out doing missions in low sec, or to suicide them. Dont take away one of our only weapons against them. And YES a lot of them are below 30 days and doing missions. Suicide ganks are NOT the problem, suicide ganks for the profit are the problem. Wrong. Players *letting* themselves be ganked is the problem. All suicide attacks do is remove stupid/incompetent players from their ISK. Nothing more. There is zero possibility of losing your stuff in high-sec if you take the proper precautions. If this wasn't the case, then I would have been killed in high-sec already, as I move billions of ISK worth of modules and minerals around every day. I have yet to have anyone kill me in high-sec. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Zendaren Minmatar Core Domination	Posted - 2007.09.26 06:00:00 - [585] But the person that did make the analogy didn't mention the police just mugging... cos most muggers only get caught when the police set a trap or one of their "friends" grasses them up and thats anywhere in the world including the US. Idiots getting mugged is about the only analogy that can be drawn as the CONCORD reaction is way way better then any real life police force... feel free to set a trap...
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.26 07:17:00 - [586] Originally by: Lucre Originally by: Gaia Thorn I dont get it if a pirate corp can muster the ships and numbers needed to gank you, what makes it so hard for you to muster enough people to help defend it? That's like saying you can get a stack of people to show up for your boozy BBQ so what makes it so hard to get anyone to come and help dig your garden. Answer, one's a party, one's a chore. Same with ganking and escorting. No it's not even a close analogy. Both are work to make money, and if you think camping a gate and scanning haulers is a bbq then you really need to think again. Using alt's that are recycleable shouldn't be a valid tactic nor give insurance for breaking the law in high sec. Thats abotu as far as i can strecth.
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.26 08:10:00 - [587] Edited by: Achina on 26/09/2007 08:12:59 Originally by: Zendaren Basically what I'm saying is this is a space sim.. its like real life (ish).. if you walk around town with your bag open and you eyes closed your gonna find yourself on your arse bleeding with an empty bag... period... damn I'm no mugger but if you had a nice full wallet sticking out of that bag even I'd have a go at it. So you think it's ok the police will then kill you afterwards but have your friend keep the wallet ? Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ridley Scot Suicide ganks are NOT the problem, suicide ganks for the profit are the problem. Wrong. Players *letting* themselves be ganked is the problem. All suicide attacks do is remove stupid/incompetent players from their ISK. Nothing more. There is zero possibility of losing your stuff in high-sec if you take the proper precautions. Too bad the only way to do this is to move less value in your ship then is needed to kill it. The main problem is the suicide ganks for a calculated profit. First you cargo/ship scan the ship, then you know what is needed to kill it and what it's cargo is. You know on average how much will get destroyed, so divide the 2 and you have the average profit. Quote: If this wasn't the case, then I would have been killed in high-sec already, as I move billions of ISK worth of modules and minerals around every day. I have yet to have anyone kill me in high-sec. I'm doing the same on a daily basis, but all you can do is to carry your stuff in multiple runs (even with only T1 goods you can't fill a freighter without making it a worthwhile target) Ganking should be possible, only the profit should not be known in front. 1 option is to make cargo scanning a criminal act (i never understood why it isn't) , another would be to make it more difficult for the gankers to take the loot.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.26 08:34:00 - [588] The whole 'real life parallel' is utterly stupid, because losing your ship in EVE is not even close to being shot in RL. If you think so you need to go the *** outside for once in your life. Want an accurate analogy? Every EVE player is a fat ******* kid in a bumper car, all together in a really, really big bumper car park. Some bumper cars are different; one might have a huge basket, another might have a bigger bumper. All around this park are little tinfoil balls, which the stupid little tykes collect for some reason unknown to functioning minds. Sometimes one fat little tard might have a looot of tinfoil balls in his big basket, so the ones with bigger bumpers gang up and bump him over and take all his balls of tinfoil! Then their handler comes in, calls a time-out and takes away their bumper-cars. But he certainly doesn't care which one has the goddamn tinfoil balls, and he's not going to ban them from the bumper park, because then he'll have to deal with the annoying parents and his manager, when all he wants to do is get off work on time so he can go home and get drunk and bang his girlfriend. So ten minutes later he lets them in again, gives them a half-assed scolding, and gives them their bumper-cars back. The world keeps turning.
Grez Minmatar Sybrite Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.26 08:50:00 - [589] Solution: Stop hauling billions of isk in t1 haulers. ---
Zendaren Minmatar Core Domination	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:12:00 - [590] Ilvan ... that so rocks.. LOL

Lucre STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:26:00 - [591] Originally by: Grez Solution: Stop hauling billions of isk in t1 haulers. Problem: WTB T2 Freighter
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:29:00 - [592] Originally by: Achina Edited by: Achina on 26/09/2007 08:12:59 Originally by: Zendaren Basically what I'm saying is this is a space sim.. its like real life (ish).. if you walk around town with your bag open and you eyes closed your gonna find yourself on your arse bleeding with an empty bag... period... damn I'm no mugger but if you had a nice full wallet sticking out of that bag even I'd have a go at it. So you think it's ok the police will then kill you afterwards but have your friend keep the wallet ? Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ridley Scot Suicide ganks are NOT the problem, suicide ganks for the profit are the problem. Wrong. Players *letting* themselves be ganked is the problem. All suicide attacks do is remove stupid/incompetent players from their ISK. Nothing more. There is zero possibility of losing your stuff in high-sec if you take the proper precautions. Too bad the only way to do this is to move less value in your ship then is needed to kill it. The main problem is the suicide ganks for a calculated profit. First you cargo/ship scan the ship, then you know what is needed to kill it and what it's cargo is. You know on average how much will get destroyed, so divide the 2 and you have the average profit. Quote: If this wasn't the case, then I would have been killed in high-sec already, as I move billions of ISK worth of modules and minerals around every day. I have yet to have anyone kill me in high-sec. I'm doing the same on a daily basis, but all you can do is to carry your stuff in multiple runs (even with only T1 goods you can't fill a freighter without making it a worthwhile target) Ganking should be possible, only the profit should not be known in front. 1 option is to make cargo scanning a criminal act (i never understood why it isn't) , another would be to make it more difficult for the gankers to take the loot. You totally missed the point (carebears always do). Moving anything around high sec is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing. If I can move freighters through low sec and 0.0, anyone should certianly be able to move them through high sec with complete safety. Anyone who can't accomplish this is either A) stupid, B) lazy, or C) both. Freighters are flown filled to the brim with stuff with values in the multiple billions through LOW SEC and 0.0, all the time, with zero issues. Because the pilots are PVP/Combat oriented, and know what they're doing, from both sides of the fence. All you (the people whining about high sec killing) want is for CCP to hold your hand and make it impossible for anyone to kill you in high sec. Or at least take away the motivation for it. Neither of which is needed. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:35:00 - [593] Removing cargo scaners would be a great idea. Then you can gank, but hey its a risk, you might get 500 mil or more in loot or not. Being able to scan ship and calculate whats the loot worth is just too easy. Like I said before high sec ganking is risk free and easy way to collect ISK with the current game mechanics.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:43:00 - [594] Originally by: Bellum Eternus You totally missed the point (carebears always do). Moving anything around high sec is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing. If I can move freighters through low sec and 0.0, anyone should certianly be able to move them through high sec with complete safety. Anyone who can't accomplish this is either A) stupid, B) lazy, or C) both. Freighters are flown filled to the brim with stuff with values in the multiple billions through LOW SEC and 0.0, all the time, with zero issues. Because the pilots are PVP/Combat oriented, and know what they're doing, from both sides of the fence. All you (the people whining about high sec killing) want is for CCP to hold your hand and make it impossible for anyone to kill you in high sec. Or at least take away the motivation for it. Neither of which is needed. You are a griefer and the only reason you play this game is to grief other players. Thats why its in your interest that all the griefnig tools and options are in the game. Get a life. Being able to calculate and commit ship suicides in high sec for profit is NOT what CCP planed when they created the game. Question is how to fix it.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 09:56:00 - [595] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Bellum Eternus You totally missed the point (carebears always do). Moving anything around high sec is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing. If I can move freighters through low sec and 0.0, anyone should certianly be able to move them through high sec with complete safety. Anyone who can't accomplish this is either A) stupid, B) lazy, or C) both. Freighters are flown filled to the brim with stuff with values in the multiple billions through LOW SEC and 0.0, all the time, with zero issues. Because the pilots are PVP/Combat oriented, and know what they're doing, from both sides of the fence. All you (the people whining about high sec killing) want is for CCP to hold your hand and make it impossible for anyone to kill you in high sec. Or at least take away the motivation for it. Neither of which is needed. You are a griefer and the only reason you play this game is to grief other players. Thats why its in your interest that all the griefnig tools and options are in the game. Get a life. Being able to calculate and commit ship suicides in high sec for profit is NOT what CCP planed when they created the game. Question is how to fix it. Totally incorrect. I'm not a 'griefer'. There isn't such a thing in Eve. If I were griefing a player, I would be harassing them, and that would mean that I could be petitioned for my actions and banned, which isn't the case. I'm a pirate. I take advantage of opportunities presented to myself by stupid players (such as yourself probably) to make very large amounts of ISK due to their incompetence and lack of effort. Again, you fail to recognize that if thousands of other players can safely navigate high sec with billions in loot in their freighters/haulers without any issues at all, then there isn't a problem with the system. The problem is with the players (you) that arn't smart enough to avoid being killed. It's survival of the fittest, and you just happen to be at the bottom (probably the very bottom) of the pile. That's why carebears are commonly referred to as 'bottom feeders'. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Zachstar	Posted - 2007.09.26 10:15:00 - [596] Edited by: Zachstar on 26/09/2007 10:18:22 Edited by: Zachstar on 26/09/2007 10:16:43 There is no need to go any lower. No need to remove the cargo scanners. CCP simply needs to remove the loot from ships that don't have a wardec on them from whom they were ganked. Oh btw I never said anything about utter protection for those during the 30 day period. You can still gank them to get rid of their farming rear ends (That of course if you are targeting a farmer), You'd still do it without the loot right? Otherwise you aren't in it primarily to defend the game from farmers but simply want easy loot. Don't try that one on me again please. Oh and keep the insults out of this thread please.
Virgo I'Platonicus	Posted - 2007.09.26 10:47:00 - [597] OP idea fine with me. Just CCP make it so then, that u fire all ACTIVE characters/accounts from NPC corps after 1 month of active gameplay. If you play eve, you should be free to kill under wardec then. Should also get us rid of the damn macrominers. V.
Renosha Argaron Caldari IronPig Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.09.26 11:19:00 - [598] Signed
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.26 11:43:00 - [599] Originally by: Bellum Eternus You totally missed the point (carebears always do). Moving anything around high sec is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing. If I can move freighters through low sec and 0.0, anyone should certianly be able to move them through high sec with complete safety. Anyone who can't accomplish this is either A) stupid, B) lazy, or C) both. Freighters are flown filled to the brim with stuff with values in the multiple billions through LOW SEC and 0.0, all the time, with zero issues. Because the pilots are PVP/Combat oriented, and know what they're doing, from both sides of the fence. All you (the people whining about high sec killing) want is for CCP to hold your hand and make it impossible for anyone to kill you in high sec. Or at least take away the motivation for it. Neither of which is needed. You totally missed my point(like pirates always do) and you clearly don't fly them in high-sec because you can't compare it to lowsec/0.0 If i go to 0.0 i use a scout and escorts who either warn me for gate camps so i take another route or they just kill anything which looks strange. If i fly through high-sec and i have to go to a trade-hub there's dozens of people at the gates and a few hundred in the system. I don't know any of them so they can all be gankers and there's nothing i can do to get rid of them. A scout is useless because there are always dozens of people at the gates. An escort can do nothing untill the freighter is under attack which is too late to prevent it being killed. All i can do is to make sure i carry less then it costs to kill my ship. I fly them both in high sec/lowsec and 0.0 and actually i prefer lowsec and 0.0 because it's a lot safer. In 0.0 i always fly it completely filled, while in empire i fly around whith a few hundred millions worth of items at the max. With some effort you can actually protect your assets better in 0.0 then in highsec and that's what the problem is. Give freighters a chance to be protected in highsec and the problem is solved. I want it to be perfectly possible to kill freighters in high-sec, but not at a guaranteed profit (and yes, i even tried to gank people with an alt and it takes a lot of time, but alsi is very rewarding without any risk)
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.26 11:49:00 - [600] Quote: An escort can do nothing untill the freighter is under attack which is too late to prevent it being killed. Sigh. Fail.

Achina	Posted - 2007.09.26 11:53:00 - [601] Edited by: Achina on 26/09/2007 11:55:20 Originally by: Augeas Quote: An escort can do nothing untill the freighter is under attack which is too late to prevent it being killed. Sigh. Fail. Yup, you are right, if you have an escort with only people from your corp you might be able to do anything (too bad i've got a lot of friends in empire, but most of my corpies are in 0.0) If you know any other way to really protect a fully filled freighter please tell it because i haven't heard of any which will really work.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.09.26 12:01:00 - [602] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Again, you fail to recognize that if thousands of other players can safely navigate high sec with billions in loot in their freighters/haulers without any issues at all, then there isn't a problem with the system. The problem is with the players (you) that arn't smart enough to avoid being killed. It's survival of the fittest, and you just happen to be at the bottom (probably the very bottom) of the pile. That's why carebears are commonly referred to as 'bottom feeders'. You fail to realise that the reason a thousand other players safely navigate high sec is that there are less gank squads than haulers/freighters. If there are 100 freighters and 10 gank squads only 10 frieghters will go down. The other 90 survive because they were not targets not because they had better tactics/defence. It's down to pure numbers. If you have something valuable to transport your only defence is to make it more expensive to gank you than the value of your cargo. This is possible if your cargo can be split but not in all cases. Let's say a 800m BPO. You can take it in a tanked commandship, but even they can be taken down by 4 or 5 T2 drakes. And the drakes get the insurance payout. As I see it it's a balance issue and it is too in favour of the gankers. Remove the insurance payout and the balance swings the other way. You can still gank the big juicy targets but you gotta commit more isk to it.
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.26 12:36:00 - [603] Learn to logoffski.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 13:36:00 - [604] Originally by: OneSock Originally by: Bellum Eternus Again, you fail to recognize that if thousands of other players can safely navigate high sec with billions in loot in their freighters/haulers without any issues at all, then there isn't a problem with the system. The problem is with the players (you) that arn't smart enough to avoid being killed. It's survival of the fittest, and you just happen to be at the bottom (probably the very bottom) of the pile. That's why carebears are commonly referred to as 'bottom feeders'. You fail to realise that the reason a thousand other players safely navigate high sec is that there are less gank squads than haulers/freighters. If there are 100 freighters and 10 gank squads only 10 frieghters will go down. The other 90 survive because they were not targets not because they had better tactics/defence. It's down to pure numbers. If you have something valuable to transport your only defence is to make it more expensive to gank you than the value of your cargo. This is possible if your cargo can be split but not in all cases. Let's say a 800m BPO. You can take it in a tanked commandship, but even they can be taken down by 4 or 5 T2 drakes. And the drakes get the insurance payout. As I see it it's a balance issue and it is too in favour of the gankers. Remove the insurance payout and the balance swings the other way. You can still gank the big juicy targets but you gotta commit more isk to it. Again, you and Achina are completely mistaken. All of the tatics and techniques that I use for ensuring safety for my freighters in low sec/0.0 apply 100% to high sec. I'm not going to spell it out for you how to do this, as I'm sure any sort of competent player will understand the concepts, and the noobs (you) will continue to wonder how it is done. And no, log offs have nothing to do with it. The ratio of gank squads to targets has nothing to do with it. The ability to defend the freighter and identify hostiles has nothing to do with it. All it takes is a small amount of teamwork and some skill. Both of which neither of you have apperantly. And again, my freighters are flown around high sec, with tens of billions in cargo, with impunity, and have never had any problems, ever, simply because I'm able to reduce my vunlerability to near zero. I'm sure if someone were to really want my freighter dead, they could do it, but it would require a far more advanced degree of thinking than just assembling a gank squad on the far side of some gate. Come to think of it, due to how Concord operates, I really don't think they could kill my freighter, under any circumstances. Similar to how I fly haulers (or any other ship with billions of ISK worth of cargo) around high sec all day and have never had a loss. If you take even the most rudimentary of precautions, you won't get hit. Meanwhile the gank squads continue to prune the dead weight (you) from the constant hauler traffic in the trade routes. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:08:00 - [605] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Again, you and Achina are completely mistaken. All of the tatics and techniques that I use for ensuring safety for my freighters in low sec/0.0 apply 100% to high sec. I'm not going to spell it out for you how to do this, as I'm sure any sort of competent player will understand the concepts, and the noobs (you) will continue to wonder how it is done. I understand what your tactics are (i've been in the game for 3 years) , but i'm sure you will get ganked sooner or later if you encounter a competent gank squad (unless you know a tactic i'm not aware of which is very unlikely) Quote: And no, log offs have nothing to do with it. logiffski is not a tactic it's just lame. Quote: The ratio of gank squads to targets has nothing to do with it. The ability to defend the freighter and identify hostiles has nothing to do with it. All it takes is a small amount of teamwork and some skill. Both of which neither of you have apperantly. I've never been killed with my freighter (neither high/lowsec and 0.0) and i know how to avoid it, but in highsec the only thing that really works is to carry less then it's worth to kill you. You can increase the cost needed to kill you, but everytime a ganksquad can just calculate what is needed to kill you and then either kill you or not. Quote: I'm sure if someone were to really want my freighter dead, they could do it, but it would require a far more advanced degree of thinking than just assembling a gank squad on the far side of some gate. Come to think of it, due to how Concord operates, I really don't think they could kill my freighter, under any circumstances. I'm pretty sure they will be able to do it, it all depends on their organisation. You can make it more difficult for a ganksquad but you can't prevent it, not if you are carrying billions of isk. Quote: Similar to how I fly haulers (or any other ship with billions of ISK worth of cargo) around high sec all day and have never had a loss. If you take even the most rudimentary of precautions, you won't get hit. Meanwhile the gank squads continue to prune the dead weight (you) from the constant hauler traffic in the trade routes. The only reason you live is because there are way too many easy targets. As soon as everybody takes the same precautions as you do you'll notice it's not that difficult to kill you as long as the profit is big enough. But even if those precautions of you -would- really work (which they don't), it's still wrong you can just cargoscan somebody and if it's a profitable target just kill it (a noob flying a normal hauler only costs a few mil to kill)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:10:00 - [606] Achina: Explain to me how a freigher can be killed if- Someone is webbing it so that it literally insta-warps once it uncloaks. If you kill the webbers at the gate (in high sec) then that brings in Concord. Regardless of the sec of the system, once Concord is there, it's all over. Period. The freighter can uncloak and be attacked, but Concord will insta-jam everybody who does and all the drones go pop in a matter of seconds. If the webbers get killed, you can't kill the freighter due to Concord presence. If the webbers are not killed, then there is literally zero chance of popping the freighter as it insta-warps off. Additionally, all the advantage lies with the freighter pilot and his gang, as they know exactly when and where the freighter will be decloaking, and will be ready for it. The attackers do not. Furthermore, if one of the webbers (scouts) jumps into a system and there are 40 sensor boosted BS on the other side with their drones out, WTF? Don't jump the freighter! Do I have to spell it out any more plainly? I've just handed you 100% invulnerability on a plate. Stop talking about easier targets and what not. If scouted/webbed properly, you're not going to kill a freighter in empire, and especially not in high sec. It's the same phenomenon with pirates who run missions. They don't die to piracy. Why? Because they know what it takes to kill a mission runner, and therefore know how to avoid being killed by those who would hunt them. Same holds true for empire freighter pilots. The pansy carebears die by the thousands (literally) at the hands of the skilled, and the piraty types never lose anything, because in addition to perfecting the tactics of killing sheep (you) in high sec, they've also perfected the defense against the very same. Again, there is nothing wrong with the current design. You're just too lazy to use a couple webbers and scouts EVERY SINGLE TIME you're moving ultra-high value cargo. If you don't it's your own fault, not mine for killing you. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:15:00 - [607] Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 26/09/2007 20:15:13 Originally by: Zachstar Dear CCP A solution was discussed before on this very topic that I think will solve the issue. With simple changes and negotiations the best idea I will support is. #1 No WarDec NO loot in hisec PERIOD. Dear Suicide Gankers, Stop hiding behind Concord, get some balls, and try fighting targets who can fight back. It's still the only sensible solution I have seen. Logistics is no help (1x quad rep logistics cruiser reps less than a single Ogre II domi puts out), scouting fails miserably, command-ship/implant boosting your armor/shield HP is futile, counter attacking the gank squad is pointless (unless you can take out 30 Dominix faster than Concord), did I miss anything? You do not get this amount of whining (yes I'll admit of lot of people here are whining) without there being a cause. If it was easy to avoid they'd STFU or at least be unanimously told to much like those who complain when they lose all their assets in an un-tanked AFK Industrial. Oh, and by the way, the pathetic one-liners, insults, and general childishness really isn't doing anyone any favors. State a reasonable argument or accept the fact that your just adding length to a whine thread, which is counter to your cause. Many pirates have a tendency to turn any thread that can potentially nerf their (already suffering career) into the EVE equivalent of the WoW forums... don't do it. It's not helping you. My thanks however to those on both side who have been able to express their opinions and ideas with a bit of civility. Perhaps between us we can get this idiocy sorted out and start discussing ways to get real piracy up to par instead of having it rely on what is frankly very little fun or challenge to any respectable PvPer.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:27:00 - [608] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Achina: Explain to me how a freigher can be killed if- Someone is webbing it so that it literally insta-warps once it uncloaks. If you kill the webbers at the gate (in high sec) then that brings in Concord. Regardless of the sec of the system, once Concord is there, it's all over. Period. The freighter can uncloak and be attacked, but Concord will insta-jam everybody who does and all the drones go pop in a matter of seconds. The webbing to accel into warp bug was fixed a long time ago, and even back when it existed it was still possible to catch a freighter (fast locking frigs or MWD bumping) they never insta-warped, but they were admittedly damned fast. And if you jump into a system with 40 SB'd Domi's on the gate then your obviously dealing with some of our lazier gankers who haven't prepared for the possibility of a scout.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:49:00 - [609] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Originally by: Bellum Eternus Achina: Explain to me how a freigher can be killed if- Someone is webbing it so that it literally insta-warps once it uncloaks. If you kill the webbers at the gate (in high sec) then that brings in Concord. Regardless of the sec of the system, once Concord is there, it's all over. Period. The freighter can uncloak and be attacked, but Concord will insta-jam everybody who does and all the drones go pop in a matter of seconds. The webbing to accel into warp bug was fixed a long time ago, and even back when it existed it was still possible to catch a freighter (fast locking frigs or MWD bumping) they never insta-warped, but they were admittedly damned fast. And if you jump into a system with 40 SB'd Domi's on the gate then your obviously dealing with some of our lazier gankers who haven't prepared for the possibility of a scout. Again, if you do suicide the webbers in order to catch the freighter, Concord will be there in plenty of time to stop the freighter from getting killed. A dual webbed freighter will indeed insta-warp (just did it on test server 10 min. ago), far faster than an insta-lock frig can sort out, and you can't warp in a BS gank fleet to a gate and lock and pop the freighter within the 20-30 second window that .5 affords, in a best case scenario. And this is of course assuming that you've managed to catch the freighter in the first place and stop it from warping out, which is almost impossible. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:58:00 - [610] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 26/09/2007 20:15:13 Originally by: Zachstar Dear CCP A solution was discussed before on this very topic that I think will solve the issue. With simple changes and negotiations the best idea I will support is. #1 No WarDec NO loot in hisec PERIOD. Dear Suicide Gankers, Stop hiding behind Concord, get some balls, and try fighting targets who can fight back. It's still the only sensible solution I have seen. Logistics is no help (1x quad rep logistics cruiser reps less than a single Ogre II domi puts out), scouting fails miserably, command-ship/implant boosting your armor/shield HP is futile, counter attacking the gank squad is pointless (unless you can take out 30 Dominix faster than Concord), did I miss anything? You do not get this amount of whining (yes I'll admit of lot of people here are whining) without there being a cause. If it was easy to avoid they'd STFU or at least be unanimously told to much like those who complain when they lose all their assets in an un-tanked AFK Industrial. Oh, and by the way, the pathetic one-liners, insults, and general childishness really isn't doing anyone any favors. State a reasonable argument or accept the fact that your just adding length to a whine thread, which is counter to your cause. Many pirates have a tendency to turn any thread that can potentially nerf their (already suffering career) into the EVE equivalent of the WoW forums... don't do it. It's not helping you. My thanks however to those on both side who have been able to express their opinions and ideas with a bit of civility. Perhaps between us we can get this idiocy sorted out and start discussing ways to get real piracy up to par instead of having it rely on what is frankly very little fun or challenge to any respectable PvPer. Go find targets who can fight back? Since when has this turned into an e-peen contest? Killing targets for ISK/profit has nothing to do with who has the biggest e-peen. No one is out to 'prove' anything. It's purely an ISK making proposition. Why are you trying to steer the discussion in another direction? What does this have to do with being a 'respectable PVPer'? Nothing. You're confusing piracy with PVP. All pirates are PVPers, but not all PVPers are pirates. Furthermore you're making the (huge) mistake of thinking that just because someone kills a target such as a hauler or freighter that they don't have the skills to kill anything else. Talk about pathetic one-liners and insults... I think that pirates are resorting to high sec killing because CCP has forced them into it. They've introduced warp to zero, made mission running in high-sec lucrative enough so that very few people (other than pirates) want to live in low-sec, nerfed probes vs. deadspace areas, and any number of other things that have really hurt piracy overally in a traditional sense. The hunters follow the prey, looking for the fat and the stupid, and they're finding it in spades in high-sec. I've never killed anyone who was paying attention and properly prepaired. It's the inattentive and the incompetent that die. Which is the way it should be. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One

Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:00:00 - [611] Edited by: Cornucopian on 26/09/2007 21:00:42 disregard. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:02:00 - [612] Worst case, your ft jumps into a camp and starts getting bumped by a frig while the 30 gank BS 16 AU away starts warping in. What do you do? Have one of your scouts shoot some random guy, voila, concord agroed and the gank just failed. Its literally impossible to gank a ft if you have 2-3 people scouting you.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:05:00 - [613] Originally by: Gamesguy Worst case, your ft jumps into a camp and starts getting bumped by a frig while the 30 gank BS 16 AU away starts warping in. What do you do? Have one of your scouts shoot some random guy, voila, concord agroed and the gank just failed. Its literally impossible to gank a ft if you have 2-3 people scouting you. we all know this, but thats not the point is it: the point is to ensure that freighter pilots in high sec get an invulnerable hauler, because they are too lazy to protect themselves. We all know that if you whine enough CCP caves like an unfit mother. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:07:00 - [614] Ok, so your 10 bill freighter has jumped into a system. Your scout reported that the gate and scan was clear, but suddenly your Rapier fails to prevent a nanophoon bumping your Freighter and preventing it from aligning. Oh noes! Surely a gank fleet is inbound! Defence is easy. Choose one or more of the following three options (note that this assumes that Option A - Rapier webbing - doesn't work for whatever reason). 1. Logistics. You don't need to permatank the gank squad, so comparisons between logistics rep rate and Ogre damage are irrelevant. You need to survive long enough for CONCORD to show up. I'll leave you to work out how many Logistics cruisers or repper BS you'll need. 2. NanoScorp with ECM Burst. MWD over to your Freighter, ECM-burst the drones' lock, laugh as the gank squad (and then you!) gets CONCORDED. Again, I'll leave it up to you to work out how many ECM Bursts and what skills it will take to defeat a typical gank fleet. 3. Smartbombs. MWD over to your Freighter, and nuke the drones. Then laugh as everyone gets CONCORDED. Again, I'll leave it up to you to work out how many smartbomber BS it will take to defeat a typical gank fleet. These are the tools. Use them.
Original Copy	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:09:00 - [615] Suicide ganking can be easily remedied with a cargo item: Cargo Manifest Counterfeiter. Size: -50% cargo capacity (cannot be placed in a can). What it does: Randomly throws false readings when the ship is scanned selecting randomly from the regional market with user-defined ISK limits & ship full cargo capacity. I.E. a fully expanded/rigged iteron V would have it's peak cargo capacity cut by 50%. The pilot selects a market subtab for the Counterfeiter to use (commodities, for example). Then whenever the ship is scanned its real cargo is not listed... instead the scanning ship sees 30+K m/3 of random commodities. A few empty freighters with these things in their cargo would really ruin the fun of any suicide ganker. Esp if the pilot selected, say, a narrow subgroub of, for example, Heavy Assault Ships.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:12:00 - [616] Originally by: Original Copy Suicide ganking can be easily remedied with a cargo item: Cargo Manifest Counterfeiter. Size: -50% cargo capacity (cannot be placed in a can). What it does: Randomly throws false readings when the ship is scanned selecting randomly from the regional market with user-defined ISK limits & ship full cargo capacity. I.E. a fully expanded/rigged iteron V would have it's peak cargo capacity cut by 50%. The pilot selects a market subtab for the Counterfeiter to use (commodities, for example). Then whenever the ship is scanned its real cargo is not listed... instead the scanning ship sees 30+K m/3 of random commodities. A few empty freighters with these things in their cargo would really ruin the fun of any suicide ganker. Esp if the pilot selected, say, a narrow subgroub of, for example, Heavy Assault Ships. yesssss, can anyone say LAG BOMB? it would play havoc if your item would have to search the eve market everytime someone scanned the freighter... ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:17:00 - [617] holy CRUD it is brilliant! from now on my escort job in high sec will be even easier just fly to the gate, shoot someone, concord shows up and no one will dare gank! Then just pick up the new reaper at the next station! 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 23:12:00 - [618] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Bellum Eternus You totally missed the point (carebears always do). Moving anything around high sec is perfectly safe if you know what you're doing. If I can move freighters through low sec and 0.0, anyone should certianly be able to move them through high sec with complete safety. Anyone who can't accomplish this is either A) stupid, B) lazy, or C) both. Freighters are flown filled to the brim with stuff with values in the multiple billions through LOW SEC and 0.0, all the time, with zero issues. Because the pilots are PVP/Combat oriented, and know what they're doing, from both sides of the fence. All you (the people whining about high sec killing) want is for CCP to hold your hand and make it impossible for anyone to kill you in high sec. Or at least take away the motivation for it. Neither of which is needed. You are a griefer and the only reason you play this game is to grief other players. Thats why its in your interest that all the griefnig tools and options are in the game. Get a life. Being able to calculate and commit ship suicides in high sec for profit is NOT what CCP planed when they created the game. Question is how to fix it. Totally incorrect. I'm not a 'griefer'. There isn't such a thing in Eve. If I were griefing a player, I would be harassing them, and that would mean that I could be petitioned for my actions and banned, which isn't the case. I'm a pirate. I take advantage of opportunities presented to myself by stupid players (such as yourself probably) to make very large amounts of ISK due to their incompetence and lack of effort. Again, you fail to recognize that if thousands of other players can safely navigate high sec with billions in loot in their freighters/haulers without any issues at all, then there isn't a problem with the system. The problem is with the players (you) that arn't smart enough to avoid being killed. It's survival of the fittest, and you just happen to be at the bottom (probably the very bottom) of the pile. That's why carebears are commonly referred to as 'bottom feeders'. You are a griefer, you are the guy that likes to afk cloak in a systems and prevent some random mission runners to run missions and earn ISK to replace combat loses. To me, thats griefing because you have nothing against them other then the fact they are trying to earn some isk IN GAME. "Carebearing" as you call it, is very important part of the game. Some people, like stupid me, play the game the way its been designed. To replace the combat loses and progress in the game you need to generate the ISK. Thats why CCP designed the game with so many different options to earn ISK and replace what you lose. Now, some people hate "carebears" because they prefer to buy ISK (one way or another) to replace what they lose in combat, or they resort to things like high sec ganking because its easier and risk free, you just suicide your ship and you take stuff from another stupid "carebear" because he is stupid and he plays the game the way it should be. As for all the insults you are throwing around, I chose to ignore, its been a long time since I left the high-school.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 23:16:00 - [619] you have officially lost what little credibility you had 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 23:22:00 - [620] Originally by: Tortun Nahme you have officially lost what little credibility you had Who said I had any credibility at all? I'm just a forum alt and a stupid carebear noob

RaptorX SPECTRE 1	Posted - 2007.09.26 23:25:00 - [621] Don't know if someone has mentioned this because i didn't feel like reading through 21 pages. Give freighters the ability to equip capital reps and hardeners, will solve all the freighter problems.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 00:10:00 - [622] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 00:15:57 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 00:10:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus And again, my freighters are flown around high sec, with tens of billions in cargo, with impunity, and have never had any problems, ever, simply because I'm able to reduce my vunlerability to near zero. I'm sure if someone were to really want my freighter dead, they could do it, but it would require a far more advanced degree of thinking than just assembling a gank squad on the far side of some gate. Come to think of it, due to how Concord operates, I really don't think they could kill my freighter, under any circumstances. Orly? Let me show you how its done. And one more thing, stop calling people noobs, you are making fun of yourself. How to destroy a freigher in high sec system. Ofcourse, done for a reason to prove a point its pure fun and entertainment, but now when more and more people try to do it for profit its just lame.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 01:30:00 - [623] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Go find targets who can fight back? Since when has this turned into an e-peen contest? Killing targets for ISK/profit has nothing to do with who has the biggest e-peen. No one is out to 'prove' anything. It's purely an ISK making proposition. Why are you trying to steer the discussion in another direction? My mistake, I thought games were supposed to be about fun. Also it's hardly another direction, the under-lying point is that being able to securely assault an opponents supply-lines without the opportunity for the enemy to strike back in unbalanced. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Talk about pathetic one-liners and insults... Sarcasm... marvelous. However I don't see and one-liners or insults, at least not if you have read my intent thus far. Originally by: Bellum Eternus I think that pirates are resorting to high sec killing because CCP has forced them into it. They've introduced warp to zero, made mission running in high-sec lucrative enough so that very few people (other than pirates) want to live in low-sec, nerfed probes vs. deadspace areas, and any number of other things that have really hurt piracy overally in a traditional sense. The hunters follow the prey, looking for the fat and the stupid, and they're finding it in spades in high-sec. I've never killed anyone who was paying attention and properly prepaired. It's the inattentive and the incompetent that die. Which is the way it should be. Which is exactly my point. Lo-sec sucks and needs a serious buff, the only people out there are pirates killing other pirates and a few brave young corps who haven't realized 0.0 is safer. Hopefully faction warfare will bring folks to lo-sec in droves. However, back to my original point, I don't fly a freighter, I have ganked a few in my time, the only reasons I dislike it are that it is a: unbalanced (too much reward for too little risk/effort), b: annoys those hi-sec huggers who pay the bills, and c: it's not fun. ...at least not as fun as killing people for cash should be. I was under the impression the webbing bug had been fixed (the patch notes certainly indicated such) and I've seen sufficient time for a scram to be activated against those pilots using web-alts to speed up their runs ... however not being the defending pilot perhaps they're just slow. Oh, and shooting someone in advance as the scout is a great idea, but won't they have triggered Concord already by tackling the freighter (since you have no idea who is a hostile until this happens)? Such gangs are also used to bringing the extra DPS to cover the time loss from warping in on their point man.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 01:36:00 - [624] nah, i mean shooting someone before the freighter even decloaks or jumps in, with concord on the scene alreay their response will be quick and fatal hehe 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 01:37:00 - [625] Originally by: RaptorX Don't know if someone has mentioned this because i didn't feel like reading through 21 pages. Give freighters the ability to equip capital reps and hardeners, will solve all the freighter problems. Not a soul has mentioned this, methinks because CCP's intention was for the freighter to be easy to take down in a smaller time period than a carrier or the like. After all in 0.0/lo-sec you have to dispose of the escorts, pop the freighter, grab the cargo in your own freighter and escape all before support arrives. Also it would have to be a capital structure rep, though it could be fun to see and would mean the difference between survival and death would depend on if your in the chair or AFK. Provided said repper can cover the sick amount of DPS a 60 man gank squad can dish out. (Yeah a 60 man gank squad isn't making a lot of profit, but their ruining someones day and not making a loss, that's enough to keep a lot of folks doing it. )
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.27 04:05:00 - [626] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 02:32:19 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 00:15:57 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 00:10:47 Originally by: Bellum Eternus And again, my freighters are flown around high sec, with tens of billions in cargo, with impunity, and have never had any problems, ever, simply because I'm able to reduce my vunlerability to near zero. I'm sure if someone were to really want my freighter dead, they could do it, but it would require a far more advanced degree of thinking than just assembling a gank squad on the far side of some gate. Come to think of it, due to how Concord operates, I really don't think they could kill my freighter, under any circumstances. Orly? Let me show you how its done. And one more thing, stop calling people noobs, you are making fun of yourself. How to destroy a freigher in high sec system. Ofcourse, done for a reason to prove a point its pure fun and entertainment, but now when more and more people try to do it for profit its just lame end its creating a dangerous imbalance. You really need to stop talking out of your ass, as you have absolutely no comprehension of the current state of the game. There have been multiple changes to how Concord operates since that freighter assassination was executed. What they did and how they did it is no longer effective. FURTHER MORE, the guy didn't have a scout, or a webber team, or ANY SUPPORT what so ever. So again, you're a noob. Stop talking about stuff you know nothing about. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 04:43:00 - [627] Originally by: Bellum Eternus There have been multiple changes to how Concord operates since that freighter assassination was executed. What they did and how they did it is no longer effective. CCP changed Concord? Wondering why would they do that.... You think it might something to do with the fact they are trying to prevent easy-no-risk-I-scanned-your-ship-already-with-passive-targeter-and-I-do-it-for-profit high sec ganking?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.27 04:54:00 - [628] Edited by: Bellum Eternus on 27/09/2007 04:55:02 Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Bellum Eternus There have been multiple changes to how Concord operates since that freighter assassination was executed. What they did and how they did it is no longer effective. CCP changed Concord? Wondering why would they do that.... You think it might something to do with the fact they are trying to prevent easy-no-risk-I-scanned-your-ship-already-with-passive-targeter-and-I-do-it-for-profit high sec ganking? Specifically they buffed Concord to destroy drones, and they added neutralizers to insta-pwn your cap once they arrive, on top of the ECM, webs, etc. So, to wit: CCP has taken plenty of measures to improve the safety of high-sec for you whiny empire hugging carebear types. I have to wonder how many times you've had your ass handed to you in this game to be so zealous about nerfing this particular style of gameplay. You must lose tons of ISK on a daily basis. Edit: oh, and I see that you have nothing to say vis a vis your presenting that video as evidence of ganking freighters and being incorrect. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 05:07:00 - [629] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:35:33 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:47 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:16 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Specifically they buffed Concord to destroy drones, and they added neutralizers to insta-pwn your cap once they arrive, on top of the ECM, webs, etc. Is this good enough for you to prove that its still the best way to do it with drones? Ofcourse it can be done with just about any other ship, with good alpha-strike ships being the best. I dont have any other videos for you to watch, I'm sure not all high sec ganks are recorded. Maybe you should record one before the nerf? BTW I always wanted to ask you how come you use Gravimetric exploration probes with you alt to probe mission runners? Is there something about them most people dont know that allows you to find mission running ship very fast with almost 100% accuracy? Considering the fact they are designed to be used to probe exploration sites and such... ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 06:25:00 - [630] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:35:33 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:47 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:16 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Specifically they buffed Concord to destroy drones, and they added neutralizers to insta-pwn your cap once they arrive, on top of the ECM, webs, etc. Is this good enough for you to prove that its still the best way to do it with drones? Ofcourse it can be done with just about any other ship, with good alpha-strike ships being the best. I dont have any other videos for you to watch, I'm sure not all high sec ganks are recorded. Maybe you should record one before the nerf? BTW I always wanted to ask you how come you use Gravimetric exploration probes with you alt to probe mission runners? Is there something about them most people dont know that allows you to find mission running ship very fast with almost 100% accuracy? Considering the fact they are designed to be used to probe exploration sites and such... Umm what? You know nothing about suicide ganking. Once concord shows they insta pwn you with in 2-3 seconds. The reason people use myrmidon is because it has the highest DPS of all BC class ships, not because drones evade concord or some bull**** reason you seem to think it is. In addition, you've answered zero of my points. A nanoed blockade runner using warp to zero is effectively invulnerable in highsec. Its extremely easy to train for t2 haulers, and they are very cheap. For freighters, using 1 scout in a battleship who webs the ft to make it warp faster, scout for the ft, and incase of a complete FUBAR, can agro some random guy and tank the sentries long enough for concord to spawn. This will defeat any suicide gank you can think up against a freighter in highsec. With just a LITTLE application of the grey matter between your ears, you can be completely invulerable in highsec. Hell, the battleship scout can be your alt! You dont need an entire fleet of escorts, just 1 battleship to scout for a ft.

Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.27 06:33:00 - [631] Originally by: Ridley Scot You are a griefer, you are the guy that likes to afk cloak in a systems and prevent some random mission runners to run missions and earn ISK to replace combat loses. To me, thats griefing because you have nothing against them other then the fact they are trying to earn some isk IN GAME. "Carebearing" as you call it, is very important part of the game. Some people, like stupid me, play the game the way its been designed. To replace the combat loses and progress in the game you need to generate the ISK. Thats why CCP designed the game with so many different options to earn ISK and replace what you lose. Now, some people hate "carebears" because they prefer to buy ISK (one way or another) to replace what they lose in combat, or they resort to things like high sec ganking because its easier and risk free, you just suicide your ship and you take stuff from another stupid "carebear" because he is stupid and he plays the game the way it should be. As for all the insults you are throwing around, I chose to ignore, its been a long time since I left the high-school. Holy fail! I didn't see a response to this drivle so I thought I'd jump in. Ridley, you are wrong about how this game is "ment to be played" Anyone playing it is playing how it's ment to be, the devs didn't pull a wow and make only one style of fun. For all the rest of you looking to "fix" the fact that freighters can be ganked profitably, don't bother. If you check the link on my sig you can see clearly that the devs intend for hauling billions of isk to entail the risk of destruction. As an answer to the reason soo very many people are whinning on this topic, it's not that anything is wrong. It's that these people steadfastly refuse to work in groups. They do not even want to work with ALTS! who could scout, web and rep/ecm/sb/whatever to save the freighter. This is because theu lazy sods want to be able to play a game AFK! The only thing they can do w/o friends is whine on the forrums and so here they are, every day. Finally how is some guy with a cloak preventing you from missioning? He has to scan you down and kill you to prevent you from missioning and that's a pain in the keister, especially once you get into the mission. Grow a pair, fit a cheaper ship and have a good time with that little adreneline zing of danger. It makes the game more fun, I promise. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.27 09:56:00 - [632] Originally by: Ridley Scot You think it might something to do with the fact they are trying to prevent easy-no-risk-I-scanned-your-ship-already-with-passive-targeter-and-I-do-it-for-profit high sec ganking? Nope, nothing to do with that. As I've said already, you clearly do not understand the purpose of Concord. As long as you keep arguing from this incorrect standpoint, all your arguments will fail.
Takisa	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:25:00 - [633] Edited by: Takisa on 27/09/2007 10:25:52 Originally by: Marquis Dean And what would you do about it? As a start: remove insurance payouts if Concord is involved in any of the damage done to a ship. Insurance in general can get overhauled. An overhaul of it can involve game fiction as Pend Insurance is a corp. Perhaps it can be allowed within the fiction to get benefits or detractions based on faction.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:37:00 - [634] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 10:38:53 Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Ridley Scot You are a griefer, you are the guy that likes to afk cloak in a systems and prevent some random mission runners to run missions and earn ISK to replace combat loses. To me, thats griefing because you have nothing against them other then the fact they are trying to earn some isk IN GAME. "Carebearing" as you call it, is very important part of the game. Some people, like stupid me, play the game the way its been designed. To replace the combat loses and progress in the game you need to generate the ISK. Thats why CCP designed the game with so many different options to earn ISK and replace what you lose. Now, some people hate "carebears" because they prefer to buy ISK (one way or another) to replace what they lose in combat, or they resort to things like high sec ganking because its easier and risk free, you just suicide your ship and you take stuff from another stupid "carebear" because he is stupid and he plays the game the way it should be. As for all the insults you are throwing around, I chose to ignore, its been a long time since I left the high-school. Holy fail! I didn't see a response to this drivle so I thought I'd jump in. Ridley, you are wrong about how this game is "ment to be played" Anyone playing it is playing how it's ment to be, the devs didn't pull a wow and make only one style of fun. For all the rest of you looking to "fix" the fact that freighters can be ganked profitably, don't bother. If you check the link on my sig you can see clearly that the devs intend for hauling billions of isk to entail the risk of destruction. As an answer to the reason soo very many people are whinning on this topic, it's not that anything is wrong. It's that these people steadfastly refuse to work in groups. They do not even want to work with ALTS! who could scout, web and rep/ecm/sb/whatever to save the freighter. This is because theu lazy sods want to be able to play a game AFK! The only thing they can do w/o friends is whine on the forrums and so here they are, every day. Finally how is some guy with a cloak preventing you from missioning? He has to scan you down and kill you to prevent you from missioning and that's a pain in the keister, especially once you get into the mission. Grow a pair, fit a cheaper ship and have a good time with that little adreneline zing of danger. It makes the game more fun, I promise. -Galan Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:41:00 - [635] /raises voice HELLO? HELLO? heeeeellllooooo?!?!?? CCCPPP?!?!? ANYONE HOME???? THIS *** AND MOAN IS 22 PAGES LONG WITH NO DEV RESPONSE, WHY I WONDER ??? WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THAT FREIGHTERS CAN PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM GANKING EASILY ENOUGH, BUT THAT THEY WHINE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO HAUL AFK AND NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE GAME. COULD WE MAYBE GET A RESPONSE? /lowers voice. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:52:00 - [636] Originally by: Ridley Scott Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. Oh please, then post with your 0.0 uber pvper main. Oh wait, you dont have one and you're just talking about of your ass. Here's a hint, every single suicide ganker I know are hardcore 0.0 pvpers from some of the best pvp corps/alliances in eve. And keep ignoring my points regarding how you can be completely invulnerable in highsec. Stupidity is not a defense.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:59:00 - [637] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 11:05:24 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scott Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. Oh please, then post with your 0.0 uber pvper main. Oh wait, you dont have one and you're just talking about of your ass. Here's a hint, every single suicide ganker I know are hardcore 0.0 pvpers from some of the best pvp corps/alliances in eve. And keep ignoring my points regarding how you can be completely invulnerable in highsec. Stupidity is not a defense. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:02:00 - [638] Edited by: Boomershoot on 27/09/2007 11:02:52 There is no thing called "Safe Space" you can be attacked in every single point of space, concord-sentry-whatsoever would show up, and you can be killed in every single region of the space (even in 0.6 a freighter can be killed, remember?) there are methods to make it ALMOST safe, but not COMPLETELY safe some of the methods have already been explained by Gamesguy call it idiocy, call it tactically superior move, call it suicideganking, it's still one of the things that kills your ship in empire EDIT: sorry gamesguy, i typoed your name :E ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:05:00 - [639] Edited by: Gamesguy on 27/09/2007 11:05:23 Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scott Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. Oh please, then post with your 0.0 uber pvper main. Oh wait, you dont have one and you're just talking about of your ass. Here's a hint, every single suicide ganker I know are hardcore 0.0 pvpers from some of the best pvp corps/alliances in eve. And keep ignoring my points regarding how you can be completely invulnerable in highsec. Stupidity is not a defense. Main 1. I don't believe you. Why dont you post with it? 2. Even if that is you, you have no kills for the past 3 weeks but you have time to troll the forums all day? Some pvper you are.
Jonathan Peterbilt Caldari Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:06:00 - [640] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 27/09/2007 11:05:23 Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scott Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. Oh please, then post with your 0.0 uber pvper main. Oh wait, you dont have one and you're just talking about of your ass. Here's a hint, every single suicide ganker I know are hardcore 0.0 pvpers from some of the best pvp corps/alliances in eve. And keep ignoring my points regarding how you can be completely invulnerable in highsec. Stupidity is not a defense. Main 1. I don't believe you. Why dont you post with it? 2. Even if that is you, you have no kills for the past 3 weeks but you have time to troll the forums all day? Some pvper you are. I changed the corp moron.

Achina	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:09:00 - [641] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Achina: Explain to me how a freigher can be killed if- Someone is webbing it so that it literally insta-warps once it uncloaks. If you kill the webbers at the gate (in high sec) then that brings in Concord. Regardless of the sec of the system, once Concord is there, it's all over. Period. The freighter can uncloak and be attacked, but Concord will insta-jam everybody who does and all the drones go pop in a matter of seconds. If there's a bumper who knows what he's doing you won't get aligned and thus your webber will do close to nothing. It's an easy way to move faster but will not prevent a competent squad to keep your freighter pinned down. Quote: Furthermore, if one of the webbers (scouts) jumps into a system and there are 40 sensor boosted BS on the other side with their drones out, WTF? Don't jump the freighter! And what if the gankers only have the scout/bumper at the gate, or if they have a scout on the other side of the gate telling them when the freighter jumps and thus when the BS's can warp in ? Quote: Do I have to spell it out any more plainly? I've just handed you 100% invulnerability on a plate. Stop talking about easier targets and what not. If scouted/webbed properly, you're not going to kill a freighter in empire, and especially not in high sec. You don't have to spell it out because both are easily encountered by a gang who knows what they are doing. It works atm because there are a lot of easier targets, but that doesn't change the fact game mechanics are wrong
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:13:00 - [642] Originally by: Jonathan Peterbilt I changed the corp moron. Now stop smacking, this is not Local. You accuse me of smacking when you were the idiot hiding behind an alt so you can post more of your brainless drivel?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:15:00 - [643] Originally by: Achina Originally by: Bellum Eternus Achina: Explain to me how a freigher can be killed if- Someone is webbing it so that it literally insta-warps once it uncloaks. If you kill the webbers at the gate (in high sec) then that brings in Concord. Regardless of the sec of the system, once Concord is there, it's all over. Period. The freighter can uncloak and be attacked, but Concord will insta-jam everybody who does and all the drones go pop in a matter of seconds. If there's a bumper who knows what he's doing you won't get aligned and thus your webber will do close to nothing. It's an easy way to move faster but will not prevent a competent squad to keep your freighter pinned down. Quote: Furthermore, if one of the webbers (scouts) jumps into a system and there are 40 sensor boosted BS on the other side with their drones out, WTF? Don't jump the freighter! And what if the gankers only have the scout/bumper at the gate, or if they have a scout on the other side of the gate telling them when the freighter jumps and thus when the BS's can warp in ? Quote: Do I have to spell it out any more plainly? I've just handed you 100% invulnerability on a plate. Stop talking about easier targets and what not. If scouted/webbed properly, you're not going to kill a freighter in empire, and especially not in high sec. You don't have to spell it out because both are easily encountered by a gang who knows what they are doing. It works atm because there are a lot of easier targets, but that doesn't change the fact game mechanics are wrong Read please. You use a battleship to scout/web. In the event of a bumper, have the bs do a quick scan and if he sees an extra 30 bs that werent on scanner before have the BS guy agro concord. By the time the gank fleet drops out of warp concord will already be on the gate or at most a couple of seconds away. Gank failed.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:22:00 - [644] Edited by: Boomershoot on 27/09/2007 11:22:56 1) Concord is called not by a BS worth 1251782936781 isk, but by a dammit frigate alt that is worth nothing :\| easier way to not lose isk, but you can still make the BS aggro by concord so you lose webber and something like 50-120m isk :E 2) 3 76,5%-web 2 seconds after the freighter uncloacked = instawarp 3) scout from the other side bumping the freighter is another method to make it to the end of the engage, bumping the freighter out of the gate is another way to get it to explode the next 2 minutes, you can still avoid it :P 4) take logisticS with you, REPAIR FTW EDIT: 1b) attackers may aswell get another frigate to aggro at station/another random point in system and nullify the concord aggro at gate, would be really funny to see concord warp away as you engage a freighter :D ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:28:00 - [645] Originally by: Boomershoot EDIT: 1b) attackers may aswell get another frigate to aggro at station/another random point in system and nullify the concord aggro at gate, would be really funny to see concord warp away as you engage a freighter :D ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
aquontium Gallente Fourth Circle Total Comfort	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:19:00 - [646] The simple fact is that 4 drakes can pop anything HAC size or smaller, including HACs. Thus any ship with fittings worth more than 45m is worth ganking. 4x Drakes + Fittings + Insurance - Payout = not much m's of ISK. As there's a friendly alt in a NPC corp to scoop their wreckage, it looks more like this: (Insurance cost + 50% of fittings cost x 4) allows you to gank pretty much anything. From a purely financial POV, you can cause 120m of damage (HAC cost - payout) to any HAC in exchange for about 15m of loss. CCP, we're not against High-sec not being safe, in fact, we're for it. We're after risk vs reward. Especially for exploration and mission runners with explosive holes, CONCORD doesn't turn up fast enough. 2-3 seconds in a 1.0 system, but a lot slower in a 0.7 or less! These pilots can't be wardecced as they hide out in NPC corps and can pick on anyone with no fear of retaliation, save a 15 minute timer for stealing loot (which they'll spend in station laughing). At the very least, the corps need the same kill rights as each player. Add the T2 salvage and drake salvage in there, and it starts to look like a no brainer. High-sec ganking is not just against afk freighters, and a check of many killmails will show you that a number of players posting here in defence of freighter ganking........are freighter gankers. Funny that.
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:35:00 - [647] Dear God. We post on here step-by-step details about how to avoid getting suicide-ganked. The whiners decide it's too much effort to read and understand and instead stick to what they know best - whining.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:50:00 - [648] And there we have it, in the last two pages the entire thread has devolved into a schoolyard. You wonder why CCP haven't posted? If they say, "we're looking into it" the pirates will go nuts, if they say "it's working as intended" the freighter pilots will go nuts. If they say "we're considering a reasonable alternative and a buff to the pirate profession." I will choke on my coffee to the point where I may actually need a new monitor.
OneSock Crown Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:25:00 - [649] As I tried to point out it's a balance issue. This is primarily a game and a game must appeal to a majority of players, not a minority of elitists. So if the player base feel the game is unbalanced, then it is. end of. Let CCP make the call. I can't think of any reason to make high sec totally safe, but neither can I think of any valid reason for concord to pay out on acts of agression against another player in high-sec (not counting war decs). No insurer would pay out for suicide.
Ellie Marie	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:16:00 - [650] So the "player base" is mostly just the few idiots whining in this thread? Half of which i reckon are the same person, cant beat agreeing with your own alter-ego. The thing that annoys me most is the whines that people should play the game THEIR way. I dont haul a lot of stuff, i dont pirate and i sure as hell dont play the game to someone elses rules. If you cant adapt ... quit, for the good of everyone else.

Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.27 15:34:00 - [651] Edited by: Lorde Falcao on 27/09/2007 15:34:38 Originally by: Jonathan Peterbilt Edited by: Jonathan Peterbilt on 27/09/2007 11:09:07 Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 27/09/2007 11:05:23 Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scott Well thanks for your advice. You, like many others think that person typing this is few months old noob carebear. Thing is, I do it in 0.0, where it should be done and yes people shoot back. I don't camp high sec-low sec gates poping noobs in shuttles and haulers, I leave that to you and the rest of the -10 and high sec gank team. I'd wish poping haulers could give me a zing it just doesnt. For me it just takes a bit more to say GF in local. Oh please, then post with your 0.0 uber pvper main. Oh wait, you dont have one and you're just talking about of your ass. Here's a hint, every single suicide ganker I know are hardcore 0.0 pvpers from some of the best pvp corps/alliances in eve. And keep ignoring my points regarding how you can be completely invulnerable in highsec. Stupidity is not a defense. Main 1. I don't believe you. Why dont you post with it? 2. Even if that is you, you have no kills for the past 3 weeks but you have time to troll the forums all day? Some pvper you are. I changed the corp moron. Now stop smacking, this is not Local. bahahahaha tyrell corp lmao this thread is now 5555555 golden manbabies
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:25:00 - [652] Originally by: Gamesguy Umm what? You know nothing about suicide ganking. Once concord shows they insta pwn you with in 2-3 seconds. The reason people use myrmidon is because it has the highest DPS of all BC class ships, not because drones evade concord or some bull**** reason you seem to think it is. In addition, you've answered zero of my points. A nanoed blockade runner using warp to zero is effectively invulnerable in highsec. Its extremely easy to train for t2 haulers, and they are very cheap. For freighters, using 1 scout in a battleship who webs the ft to make it warp faster, scout for the ft, and incase of a complete FUBAR, can agro some random guy and tank the sentries long enough for concord to spawn. This will defeat any suicide gank you can think up against a freighter in highsec. With just a LITTLE application of the grey matter between your ears, you can be completely invulerable in highsec. Hell, the battleship scout can be your alt! You dont need an entire fleet of escorts, just 1 battleship to scout for a ft. You are now the champion of this thread.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 16:51:00 - [653] Originally by: 343conspiracy43345 Originally by: Gamesguy Umm what? You know nothing about suicide ganking. Once concord shows they insta pwn you with in 2-3 seconds. The reason people use myrmidon is because it has the highest DPS of all BC class ships, not because drones evade concord or some bull** reason you seem to think it is. In addition, you've answered zero of my points. A nanoed blockade runner using warp to zero is effectively invulnerable in highsec. Its extremely easy to train for t2 haulers, and they are very cheap. For freighters, using 1 scout in a battleship who webs the ft to make it warp faster, scout for the ft, and incase of a complete FUBAR, can agro some random guy and tank the sentries long enough for concord to spawn. This will defeat any suicide gank you can think up against a freighter in highsec. With just a LITTLE application of the grey matter between your ears, you can be completely invulerable in highsec. Hell, the battleship scout can be your alt! You dont need an entire fleet of escorts, just 1 battleship to scout for a ft. You are now the champion of this thread. /signed ENOUGH WITH THE GODDAMN HIGH SEC GANK WHINES!!! YOU CAN PROTECT YOURSELF! ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Gandolf Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:20:00 - [654] LOL @ this thread p.s go play wow if u want no risk
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:29:00 - [655] Originally by: Gandolf LOL @ this thread p.s go play wow if u want no risk Irony is strong in this one.... Is that why you scan each ship before the ganking? Just because you dont want to risk? Solution is very easy, Concord should claim/destroy the wreck of the victim of the high sec gank. It should be easy to implement and it will stop tards from camping high sec gates and systems 24/7. It will still leave the posssibility to destroy someone in high sec for other reason, revange for example, it will just be costly to do so and attacker would be punished for aggresion. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Gandolf Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:34:00 - [656] i do not understand why ppl want this game on easier mode than it already is. this game as a whole no matter what u do is a game of risk deal with it
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:41:00 - [657] Originally by: Ridley Scot Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:35:33 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:47 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 05:08:16 Originally by: Bellum Eternus Specifically they buffed Concord to destroy drones, and they added neutralizers to insta-pwn your cap once they arrive, on top of the ECM, webs, etc. Is this good enough for you to prove that its still the best way to do it with drones? Ofcourse it can be done with just about any other ship, with good alpha-strike ships being the best. I dont have any other videos for you to watch, I'm sure not all high sec ganks are recorded. Maybe you should record one before the nerf? BTW I always wanted to ask you how come you use Gravimetric exploration probes with you alt to probe mission runners? Is there something about them most people dont know that allows you to find mission running ship very fast with almost 100% accuracy? Considering the fact they are designed to be used to probe exploration sites and such... Again, you seem to have a lack of understanding about game mechanics and how it applies to high sec killing. Simply using drones/having them on the killmail in no way relates to how Concord behaves with respect to drones when killing freighters (or anything else for that matter). In that freighter gank movie (Outbreak killing BoB) the Dominix was chosen because at that time Concord did not ECM or attack drones. So by plating the BS as much as possible, the drones would continue to live/do damage, even after the owner was ECMed. This has all been changed, and now all drones are instantly ECMed/webbed/nossed/tracking disrupted/totally pwned to hell just like any other ship. This completely eliminates any DPS as soon as Concord arrives. Drones are simply a good way to get DPS in some ships. But repeating what Outbreak achieved, with the same tactics that they used and the same setups, will never be repeated again in Eve due to the changes to Concord by the Devs. There are numerous posts on this page alone detailing exactly what can be done to avoid being killed, yet people (you) still insist on complaining that there is something wrong. Just give it up already. There is nothing wrong with the current state of Concord. Just the pilots who are too lazy/dumb to live. Off topic: you sure seem to have a great personal interest in my killing mission runners. Did I kill you or your friends or something? Either way, it's hilarious. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Lorde Falcao Gallente Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:45:00 - [658] Originally by: Ridley Scot It should be easy to implement and it will stop tards from camping high sec gates and systems 24/7. lmao former tyrell corp member complaining about someone camping gates too much hey johnathan peterbuilt we live in NZG- in Stain and the RIT- triangle in Feythabolis, why don't you come and get revenge with your uber pvp character
Sendraks Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.27 18:53:00 - [659] Edited by: Sendraks on 27/09/2007 18:53:29 Originally by: Ridley Scot Solution is very easy, Concord should claim/destroy the wreck of the victim of the high sec gank. As such activities are not the purpose of Concord, this idea is and will continue to be, a stupid idea. Once you understand the purpose of Concord in game, you will realise the stupidity of this suggestion.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:06:00 - [660] Oh dear lord the amount of fail is painful. I sincerely hope what I'm witting below has been brought up already but I'm not going to read 23 pages looking for it. If CCP wanted high sec to be safe they would prevent you from locking concordable (non war, non alliance, non KR) high sec targets. Alternately they could prevent weapon activation. This would be trivial to code. Replace the pop up and concord response with, "Sorry can't do that." 100% solution. Minimal dev time. Since they haven't done this suicide ganking is a legal accepted tactic. It's that simple.

Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 19:18:00 - [661] Edited by: Cornucopian on 27/09/2007 19:18:32 someone, quick, hand me the: ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Mooku	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:37:00 - [662] Hehe whats funny about this is that the suicide-gankers are technically right...the irony..o how i love irony...is that by telling the carbears repeatedly over and over high-sec isnt safe...proves how imbecelic this whole thing is...they rely on the safety of high-sec to launch their ambush.Cowards hiding behind mommy(concord).If ya all are such "l33t badasses" as ya like to pretend...why arent ya out intercepting the carriers when they make their cargo transfers to freighter....Il tell ya why...that requires effort..and ya might accidentally get blown up by someone whos actually able to defend their cargo. Sure,CCP might agree with ya too...gj im glad we entered the WoW mentality of "its easy,lets kill it"..gj on the dumbing down,wimping out of EvE...get rid of low sec..thats why low-sec is dead now...the "badasses" cant cut it out there. So i should punch a cop in the face next time i want a crime prevented.Good..il remember that..will these forums stand up as suitable defence in court?What a **in stupid ****** suggestion...but yes the game mechanics work as intended...curious george says all is under control. Awesome..lets just all suicide everything..cuz why..o ya..death means nothing... whatsoever. Curious tho.Why isnt scanning regarded as a hostile act?Ppl dont scan so they can say "hi youv got phat lewts,GJ!".The intent is hostile,it is an intrusive act,violation of privacy etc etc.....any literature on the subject,RL comparison is getting a weapons lock,active pinging with sonars etc etc,creates an "incident".Why isnt this also the case in EVE?...or is it too convenient to scan ppl in high sec until you find the golden nugget...losers.
Adaris D-L	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:46:00 - [663] /signed. I agree (to a certain degree) *******
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:49:00 - [664] Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 20:52:56 Edited by: Ridley Scot on 27/09/2007 20:51:34 This is how I see this game and issue with high sec ganking. Game has three areas, and we all know what low sec and 0.0 space are for. High sec is an area of the game, a "nursery" for the new characters to be created. Thats why all new characters start in high sec area. It gives a chance to a new player to look around and see what a game is about. Now, high sec is area where "surprise PVP" is not allowed. If "surprise PVP" was allowed in high sec, then there would be no need for Concord, same high skilled characters that are attacking pilots in high sec right now, would grief and camp stations with smart-bomb fitted motherships,and insta-kill any Ibis that is undocking trying to look around. If they complained about it answer would most probably be "lol this is EVE, its all about risk in EVE, and if you dont like it go play WoW, you noob". Most trial accounts would never get activated and thats not good for the game. To prevent griefing and limit interaction between very high and very low skilled characters, CCP created Concord. Concord is there to punish the aggresor, and the idea was that high skilled character will awlays use more expensive gear to kill less skilled character, therefore he will lose more and will not do it again. They also designed wardec as a way of preventing pilots from dweling and hiding in high sec for the most of their virtual life. But,wardec is still not "surprise PVP" because its deleyed 24 hours. It gives a chance to the pilots in the corporation to prepare for the war. So looking at all the games mechanics its clear that high sec was never designed to allow "surprise PVP" without being punished. Well, lets talk about being punished. As it is right now, the only punishment that attacker in high sec is taking is a Concord security status decrease and most of the high sec gankers are willing to trade that for a huge financial gain that some of the attacks give in return. That just not enough. Game mechanics should be harsher when it comes to braking the law. Muggers, thugs and criminals braking the Concord law should suffer financial loss as well. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:50:00 - [665] Originally by: Mooku Hehe whats funny about this is that the suicide-gankers are technically right...the irony..o how i love irony...is that by telling the carbears repeatedly over and over high-sec isnt safe...proves how imbecelic this whole thing is...they rely on the safety of high-sec to launch their ambush.Cowards hiding behind mommy(concord).If ya all are such "l33t badasses" as ya like to pretend...why arent ya out intercepting the carriers when they make their cargo transfers to freighter....Il tell ya why...that requires effort..and ya might accidentally get blown up by someone whos actually able to defend their cargo. Sure,CCP might agree with ya too...gj im glad we entered the WoW mentality of "its easy,lets kill it"..gj on the dumbing down,wimping out of EvE...get rid of low sec..thats why low-sec is dead now...the "badasses" cant cut it out there. So i should punch a cop in the face next time i want a crime prevented.Good..il remember that..will these forums stand up as suitable defence in court?What a **in stupid ****** suggestion...but yes the game mechanics work as intended...curious george says all is under control. Awesome..lets just all suicide everything..cuz why..o ya..death means nothing... whatsoever. Curious tho.Why isnt scanning regarded as a hostile act?Ppl dont scan so they can say "hi youv got phat lewts,GJ!".The intent is hostile,it is an intrusive act,violation of privacy etc etc.....any literature on the subject,RL comparison is getting a weapons lock,active pinging with sonars etc etc,creates an "incident".Why isnt this also the case in EVE?...or is it too convenient to scan ppl in high sec until you find the golden nugget...losers. Carrier might kill me. Freighter/hauler can't. I can be attacked in lowsec/0.0 at any time. I can't be attacked in high sec until the time of my choosing. To do what you suggest you'd have to be a bloody idiot. Plus we've got some comparing EvE to RL thrown in there. That's always a sign of FAIL.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:53:00 - [666] Originally by: Ridley Scot Now, high sec is area where "surprise PVP" is not allowed. I stopped reading here as this is a fallacy. Surprise PVP is allowed. You're posting in a thread devoted to surprise PVP and how it shouldn't be allowed. Your post is based on a false premise. FAIL. Next.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:53:00 - [667] Originally by: Ridley Scot This is how I see this game and issue with high sec ganking. Game has three areas, and we all know what low sec and 0.0 space are for. High sec is an area of the game, a "nursery" for the new characters to be created. Thats why all new characters start in high sec area. It gives a chance to a new player to look around and see what a game is about. Now, high sec is area where "surprise PVP" is not allowed. If "surprise PVP" was allowed in high sec, then there would be no need for Concord, same high skilled characters that are attacking pilots in high sec right now, would grief and camp stations with smart-bomb fitted motherships,and insta-kill any Ibis that is undocking trying to look around. If they complained about it answer would most probably be "lol this is EVE, its all about risk in EVE, and if you dont like it go play WoW, you noob". Most trial accounts would never get activated and thast not good for the game. To prevent griefing and limit interaction between very high and very low skilled characters, CCP created Concord. Concord is there to punish the aggresor, and the idea was that high skilled character will awlays use more expensive gear to kill less skilled character, therefore he will lose more and will not do it again. They also designed wardec as a way of preventing pilots from dweling and hiding in high sec for the most of their virtual life. But,wardec is still not "surprise PVP" because its deleyed 24 hours. It gives a chance to the pilots in the corporation to prepare for the war. So looking at all the games mechanics its clear that high sec was never designed to allow "surprise PVP" without being punished. Well, lets talk about being punished. As it is right now, the only punishment that attacker in high sec is taking is a Concord security status decrease and most of the high sec gankers are willing to trade that for a huge financial gain that some of the attacks give in return. That just not enough. Game mechanics should be harsher when it comes to braking the law. Muggers, thugs and criminals braking the Concord law should suffer financial loss as well. CCP Says You're 100% Wrong In addition, concord will not "warp away" if someone agroed in another part of the system. The only way to get them to do that is if you agro someone more than 150km away from concord but still on grid. In which case they will warp away, wtfpwn the aggressor in 2 seconds, and warp back if you start firing on the freighter. The reason you use a battleship and not a frig is because sentry guns/customs ships will instapop a frig. If the aggressor dies before concord gets there, concord will not arrive. Thats why you need a bs or a bc.
Mooku	Posted - 2007.09.27 20:59:00 - [668] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Mooku Hehe whats funny about this is that the suicide-gankers are technically right...the irony..o how i love irony...is that by telling the carbears repeatedly over and over high-sec isnt safe...proves how imbecelic this whole thing is...they rely on the safety of high-sec to launch their ambush.Cowards hiding behind mommy(concord).If ya all are such "l33t badasses" as ya like to pretend...why arent ya out intercepting the carriers when they make their cargo transfers to freighter....Il tell ya why...that requires effort..and ya might accidentally get blown up by someone whos actually able to defend their cargo. Sure,CCP might agree with ya too...gj im glad we entered the WoW mentality of "its easy,lets kill it"..gj on the dumbing down,wimping out of EvE...get rid of low sec..thats why low-sec is dead now...the "badasses" cant cut it out there. So i should punch a cop in the face next time i want a crime prevented.Good..il remember that..will these forums stand up as suitable defence in court?What a **in stupid ****** suggestion...but yes the game mechanics work as intended...curious george says all is under control. Awesome..lets just all suicide everything..cuz why..o ya..death means nothing... whatsoever. Curious tho.Why isnt scanning regarded as a hostile act?Ppl dont scan so they can say "hi youv got phat lewts,GJ!".The intent is hostile,it is an intrusive act,violation of privacy etc etc.....any literature on the subject,RL comparison is getting a weapons lock,active pinging with sonars etc etc,creates an "incident".Why isnt this also the case in EVE?...or is it too convenient to scan ppl in high sec until you find the golden nugget...losers. Carrier might kill me. Freighter/hauler can't. I can be attacked in lowsec/0.0 at any time. I can't be attacked in high sec until the time of my choosing. To do what you suggest you'd have to be a bloody idiot. Plus we've got some comparing EvE to RL thrown in there. That's always a sign of FAIL. GJ!...youv exactly high lighted the points i wished to make..have you considered WoW as an alternate game?
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:04:00 - [669] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ridley Scot This is how I see this game and issue with high sec ganking. Game has three areas, and we all know what low sec and 0.0 space are for. High sec is an area of the game, a "nursery" for the new characters to be created. Thats why all new characters start in high sec area. It gives a chance to a new player to look around and see what a game is about. Now, high sec is area where "surprise PVP" is not allowed. If "surprise PVP" was allowed in high sec, then there would be no need for Concord, same high skilled characters that are attacking pilots in high sec right now, would grief and camp stations with smart-bomb fitted motherships,and insta-kill any Ibis that is undocking trying to look around. If they complained about it answer would most probably be "lol this is EVE, its all about risk in EVE, and if you dont like it go play WoW, you noob". Most trial accounts would never get activated and thast not good for the game. To prevent griefing and limit interaction between very high and very low skilled characters, CCP created Concord. Concord is there to punish the aggresor, and the idea was that high skilled character will awlays use more expensive gear to kill less skilled character, therefore he will lose more and will not do it again. They also designed wardec as a way of preventing pilots from dweling and hiding in high sec for the most of their virtual life. But,wardec is still not "surprise PVP" because its deleyed 24 hours. It gives a chance to the pilots in the corporation to prepare for the war. So looking at all the games mechanics its clear that high sec was never designed to allow "surprise PVP" without being punished. Well, lets talk about being punished. As it is right now, the only punishment that attacker in high sec is taking is a Concord security status decrease and most of the high sec gankers are willing to trade that for a huge financial gain that some of the attacks give in return. That just not enough. Game mechanics should be harsher when it comes to braking the law. Muggers, thugs and criminals braking the Concord law should suffer financial loss as well. CCP Says You're 100% Wrong In addition, concord will not "warp away" if someone agroed in another part of the system. The only way to get them to do that is if you agro someone more than 150km away from concord but still on grid. In which case they will warp away, wtfpwn the aggressor in 2 seconds, and warp back if you start firing on the freighter. The reason you use a battleship and not a frig is because sentry guns/customs ships will instapop a frig. If the aggressor dies before concord gets there, concord will not arrive. Thats why you need a bs or a bc. That is nothing new. The purpose of this thread is to show that some players disagree with the current game mechanics and that some players think that high sec gank tactics create imbalance and create unfair advantage when it comes to commiting criminal acts in high sec. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:09:00 - [670] So you basically conceed that you know nothing about highsec mechanics and know nothing about what ccp intended yet you like to spout bull** about what you think ccp intended. And when proven wrong, you post some random drivel and completely avoid the fact that you have been shown again and again to be WRONG.** Concession accepted troll. But I'm sure you will let the heat die down in a couple more pages and then go back to posting the same crap again.

Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:10:00 - [671] Originally by: Ridley Scot go make a good movie again. You are infinitely better at movies then at forumwhorage. Freighters do NOT need a change, since they can protect themselves any number of ways: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. we the undersigned = lazy people unwilling to adapt to a pirate tactic. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Tunak	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:18:00 - [672] Originally by: Mooku GJ!...youv exactly high lighted the points i wished to make..have you considered WoW as an alternate game? I don't understand. The points you wished to make was that taking the easy kill over the hard kill is smart? How is this related to WoW? I don't think you understand. You have to ways to acquire loot. Method A is high risk. Method B is low risk. If both methods generate about the same amount of loot then the only logical choice is B. In your example your asking why the gankers don't go to low sec. The answer is because that's a stupid move. High sec ganking is easy. Taking the easy road rather than the hard road is smart and profitable.
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:19:00 - [673] Originally by: Gamesguy So you basically conceed that you know nothing about highsec mechanics and know nothing about what ccp intended yet you like to spout bull** about what you think ccp intended. And when proven wrong, you post some random drivel and completely avoid the fact that you have been shown again and again to be WRONG.** Concession accepted troll. But I'm sure you will let the heat die down in a couple more pages and then go back to posting the same crap again. You accepted concession few pages back, so I dont see why you still addressing me. Like I said, it is well known that CCP is not currently considering high sec ganking as an exploit and a lame thing to do. People that signed this thread think they should. You and I dont have anything new to exchange when it comes to conversation in this thread, I'm sure neither of us will change the standing point when it comes to this issue, so I will stop replying to you. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:32:00 - [674] Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Ridley Scot go make a good movie again. You are infinitely better at movies then at forumwhorage. Freighters do NOT need a change, since they can protect themselves any number of ways: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. we the undersigned = lazy people unwilling to adapt to a pirate tactic. 1. What movie are you talking about? 2. CCP FIX FREIGHTERS thread is -----> that way ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 21:35:00 - [675] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Ridley Scot go make a good movie again. You are infinitely better at movies then at forumwhorage. Freighters do NOT need a change, since they can protect themselves any number of ways: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. we the undersigned = lazy people unwilling to adapt to a pirate tactic. 1. What movie are you talking about? 2. CCP FIX FREIGHTERS thread is -----> that way 1. black hawk down, blade runner, american gangster, and hopefully the upcoming churchill movie. Ridley Scott man! 2. different angles on the same whine, therefore I refuse to make a distinction. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.27 22:48:00 - [676] Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Ridley Scot Freighters do NOT need a change, since they can protect themselves any number of ways: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. Freighters DO need a change, since they lack viable means to protect themselves: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all.
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 22:52:00 - [677] Originally by: Cpt Fina Freighters DO need a change, since they lack viable means to protect themselves: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. clears his throat Oh noes, it's Fina. For once I disagree with you. Mostly. They seem a little soft, all things considered, but it's far from as big a problem as people are making it out to be. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:08:00 - [678] Originally by: Frug Originally by: Cpt Fina Freighters DO need a change, since they lack viable means to protect themselves: read the previous 23 pages, I cant be bothered to quote them all. clears his throat Oh noes, it's Fina. For once I disagree with you. Mostly. They seem a little soft, all things considered, but it's far from as big a problem as people are making it out to be. Why hello there Frug. I donÆt think that a problem have to occur frequently to require a fix. And yes, they are a bit soft if you take the enormous cargospace into account. I donÆt have anything against high-sec ganks. In fact I love that itÆs possible. What I donÆt like is that Freighter-pilots canÆt fit their ships accordingly for its job. Stupid people will still get killed, just as it should be.
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:15:00 - [679] If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot?
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:22:00 - [680] Originally by: Raneru If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot? So if CCP removed insurance-payouts for high-sec ganks you wouldnÆt adjust your targetbase accordingly? Sounds like nice way to get poor really fast to me. But then again, you don't represent all of Eve's suicidegankers.

Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:39:00 - [681] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Raneru If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot? So if CCP removed insurance-payouts for high-sec ganks you wouldnÆt adjust your targetbase accordingly? Sounds like nice way to get poor really fast to me. But then again, you don't represent all of Eve's suicidegankers. Well, 30M for 400M doesn't sound too bad to me. Almost makes me sorry for my -9something sec status. At any rate, I'd give freighters a low-slot, so smart pilots can fit a DC II and dumb pilots can fit a Cargo Expander II and die miserably with even more loot, and whine even more as a consequence.
Anacrit Mc'Sinister	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:44:00 - [682] forum moderators - please never close this thread i think we can go on for ever - people just repeating ther moans and grones and ignoring the advice that have been ofered to them even by teh gankers themselves it all comes down to the fact that OP and extras belive that they have a (incert deity of choice) right to play afk. bless them
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:44:00 - [683] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Raneru If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot? So if CCP removed insurance-payouts for high-sec ganks you wouldnÆt adjust your targetbase accordingly? Sounds like nice way to get poor really fast to me. But then again, you don't represent all of Eve's suicidegankers. Well, 30M for 400M doesn't sound too bad to me. Almost makes me sorry for my -9something sec status. Suicidegankers will have a lower level of vargovalue in a ship that they can attack and still make profit. Removing insurance will shift that level; they adjust the targetbase accordingly. It might be from 40 mil isk loot to 40 mil and 1 isk loot. Still an adjustment.
Bimjo Caldari SKULLDOGS	Posted - 2007.09.27 23:54:00 - [684] Originally by: Gamesguy CCP Says You're 100% Wrong most of us agree with that, what we don't agree on is allowing suicide gankers to profit from it in high sec 1.still allow suicide gankers 2.remove insurance payment given to suicide gankers 3.remove/destroy victim's loot
Mooku	Posted - 2007.09.28 00:14:00 - [685] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Mooku GJ!...youv exactly high lighted the points i wished to make..have you considered WoW as an alternate game? I don't understand. The points you wished to make was that taking the easy kill over the hard kill is smart? How is this related to WoW? I don't think you understand. You have to ways to acquire loot. Method A is high risk. Method B is low risk. If both methods generate about the same amount of loot then the only logical choice is B. In your example your asking why the gankers don't go to low sec. The answer is because that's a stupid move. High sec ganking is easy. Taking the easy road rather than the hard road is smart and profitable. The point i wished to make is that EvE is being brought down to the level of WoW...dont call yourself a high-sec pirate...common thug is more accurate.And ty again for clarifying my point again.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.09.28 01:05:00 - [686] Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Gamesguy CCP Says You're 100% Wrong most of us agree with that, what we don't agree on is allowing suicide gankers to profit from it in high sec 1.still allow suicide gankers 2.remove insurance payment given to suicide gankers 3.remove/destroy victim's loot All that would do is make high-sec 100% safe for non-war targets in a roundabout manner. So suck it up, buttercup.
Hogan Hulk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.28 01:11:00 - [687] /signed
Durethia Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.09.28 01:32:00 - [688] Edited by: Durethia on 28/09/2007 01:35:45 The idea of making Empire even more safe is ridiculous. Already, all the carebears are all over the place and the most damaging factor is that escaping CONCORD is a bannable offense. In real life, the criminal does get away every once in a while. I think CCP should relax CONCORD diligence and make it very hard, but possible to escape CONCORD response. Now, all of those who complain, are of one single instance of thousands. Out of ALL the players traveling through the same gate, of all the "smart" ones transporting valuable loot in HACs et al or T2 transporters, of all the other people who tank their Iterons.... you have one idiot jumping in, with a vulnerable Iteron II with no tank, AFK and with a 2 billion isk module in the cargo. Even the most honest and respectable EVE Player would rub his chin given such stupidity, I might be so inclined to take Machiavelli one more step. "The real culprit to any crime, is the moron who presented opportunity of granduer." In other words, if you leave a Lamborghini Diablo running with keys in the ignition, hastly stopped before the food market on a bright sunny afternoon... the person intelligent enough to gank that car should be given a medal instead of charged with grand theft. (Afterall, in some jurisdictions instigating a crime is an offense itself.) The consequences are harsh enough, where the ganking is VERY FOCUSED. These people aren't destorying just anyone that comes by. They are LOOKING for the idiot... and they do find one of the thousands. Only for that one to venture here presenting their self-incrimenating case. I never thought it would be worth while to concord my own HAC in Empire just to kill a "hostile". Don't kid yourself, those guys knew and planned what they were going to do. You should have done the same when transporting valuable items.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.28 04:37:00 - [689] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gandolf LOL @ this thread p.s go play wow if u want no risk Irony is strong in this one.... Is that why you scan each ship before the ganking? Just because you dont want to risk? Solution is very easy, Concord should claim/destroy the wreck of the victim of the high sec gank. It should be easy to implement and it will stop tards from camping high sec gates and systems 24/7. It will still leave the posssibility to destroy someone in high sec for other reason, revange for example, it will just be costly to do so and attacker would be punished for aggresion. Holy explative! The Solution?! This thouroughly proves you did not read the link on my sig. Or you did and you are trying really really hard to pretend it's not there and that wasn't a dev post. For those of you wringing your hands about why the devs haven't posted; they haven't posted becase they have posted. Just not here. (Although thanks to my sig they have posted here now.) If High sec ganking was an exploit they would have solved it. Making it impossible is ludicrusly easy. The thing is it's not a frigging exploit! Look waaaay back to the very first post on this thread. The unlamented OP was whining that CCP has allowed freighters to drop their loot. Freighters used to drop nothing when they poped. Then in Rev 2, and bless the devs for it, we got freighter loot. And suddenly a whole bunch of skilless AFK idjits lost their ticket to easy street. Suddenly those big juicy freighters on autopilot were just begging to die. (For anyone reading the autpoilot is a death trap. There is almost never a good reason to use it.) Did the freighter pilots respond, yes. There were two responses. The pilots who like hauling cargo to make BILLIONS and were actually present at their computers for the run adapted and became nearly invulrnable. Those who wanted to AFK while doing whatever else they are doing while not playing the game they are playing realized the only counter they had that did not require them to actually play the game was to come here and try and whine the situation back the way it was. By all that is holy I will see you whinny lot of probably ISK sellers fail. To adress a few earlier points, Ridley calling me a -10 noob is not a counter to my points, it's just childish. As is your nonsense about where pvp combat is "ment to happen". It's ment to happen anywhere you can make it happen. I'm -10 (Actually -9.993 but I'm hoping a few more pods will get me there for real) because it's fun. If you compare my alliance ticker to the eve political map you'll see I live in 0.0 but I vacation in low sec. The drones in my space are kind enough not to tell concord when I kill them though. A final note on Risk vs reward. Both risk and reward in suicide ganking are not defined by the developers. The freighters are not npc spawns. The risk to the gankers is a night of no ganking. The reward is whatever you were foolish enough to stick in your cargo before you hit autopilot and ran to the forums. Read this link. It's amazingly apropriate for this argument. After all Suicide ganking is "Cheep" Playing to win. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.28 04:45:00 - [690] Originally by: Mooku Hehe whats funny about this is that the suicide-gankers are technically right...the irony..o how i love irony...is that by telling the carbears repeatedly over and over high-sec isnt safe...proves how imbecelic this whole thing is...they rely on the safety of high-sec to launch their ambush.Cowards hiding behind mommy(concord).If ya all are such "l33t badasses" as ya like to pretend...why arent ya out intercepting the carriers when they make their cargo transfers to freighter....Il tell ya why...that requires effort..and ya might accidentally get blown up by someone whos actually able to defend their cargo. Sure,CCP might agree with ya too...gj im glad we entered the WoW mentality of "its easy,lets kill it"..gj on the dumbing down,wimping out of EvE...get rid of low sec..thats why low-sec is dead now...the "badasses" cant cut it out there. So i should punch a cop in the face next time i want a crime prevented.Good..il remember that..will these forums stand up as suitable defence in court?What a **in stupid ****** suggestion...but yes the game mechanics work as intended...curious george says all is under control. Awesome..lets just all suicide everything..cuz why..o ya..death means nothing... whatsoever. Curious tho.Why isnt scanning regarded as a hostile act?Ppl dont scan so they can say "hi youv got phat lewts,GJ!".The intent is hostile,it is an intrusive act,violation of privacy etc etc.....any literature on the subject,RL comparison is getting a weapons lock,active pinging with sonars etc etc,creates an "incident".Why isnt this also the case in EVE?...or is it too convenient to scan ppl in high sec until you find the golden nugget...losers. I name thee troll. Post with your main if you want to belittle other's playstyle. Suiciding isn't about the leetness of the kill it's free money. If you were walking down the sidewalk and saw a $20.00 euro whatever would you stop to pick it up? Or would you be the moron who saw the money and instead stood near it heckeling anyone who touched it for not being l33t enough to get a job and earn their money where it was ment to be earned? Seriously. Would you? -Galan The answer to empire ganking

Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.28 04:56:00 - [691] Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Gamesguy CCP Says You're 100% Wrong most of us agree with that, what we don't agree on is allowing suicide gankers to profit from it in high sec 1.still allow suicide gankers 2.remove insurance payment given to suicide gankers 3.remove/destroy victim's loot Just one more then I'm off to actually play the game. Did you even read the op's section of this monster? Freighter were recently patched to allow loot to drop thus making them profitable to kill for the first time ever. They were made to be profitable to kill as a Fix by the devs who were sick of the macro isk sellers having joy joy happy time on easy street. The only way high sec ganking is profitable is when someone does something extremly stupid with valuable cargo. Period. An alert prepaired player, with freinds for the really high value stuff, will always arive happily at their destination. Taking away the loot would be a revision to a previous broken time. Taking away insurance would do NOTHING to discourage someone from losing 100-300 mil if it nets them 400mil. Do you see? They still proffit. What it would do is hurt new players who through ineptitude get concorded. Why are you trying to hurt the young players? -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.28 05:50:00 - [692] It would be easy for ccp to fix this. Just make it so that in high sec, you can't perform a hostile action to a friendly target... and smartbombs don't work if a friendly is within their range. This would also fix the occasional accidents where people accidently attack a stargate and lose their ship. Perhaps doing the check would make the game run slower but my guess is that they arlready to the check, just now they check to see if you will be flagged, instead do the check to see if you can do the action. -Bart
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.28 05:54:00 - [693] Originally by: Bimjo Originally by: Gamesguy CCP Says You're 100% Wrong most of us agree with that, what we don't agree on is allowing suicide gankers to profit from it in high sec 1.still allow suicide gankers 2.remove insurance payment given to suicide gankers 3.remove/destroy victim's loot Did you even read what I posted? In that article ccp explicitly condones suicide ganking for isk, and using a 2nd character to pick up the loot.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.28 05:55:00 - [694] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Raneru If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot? So if CCP removed insurance-payouts for high-sec ganks you wouldnÆt adjust your targetbase accordingly? Sounds like nice way to get poor really fast to me. But then again, you don't represent all of Eve's suicidegankers. Well, 30M for 400M doesn't sound too bad to me. Almost makes me sorry for my -9something sec status. Suicidegankers will have a lower level of vargovalue in a ship that they can attack and still make profit. Removing insurance will shift that level; they adjust the targetbase accordingly. It might be from 40 mil isk loot to 40 mil and 1 isk loot. Still an adjustment. Utterly wrong. You forgot one thing, sec status. It takes 3 hours of grinding the best rats(and I have access to the best) to get back the sec loss for ONE suicide gank. For that reason alone suicide gankers dont care about the piddly insurance pay out(except on freighters, where the profit margins is FAR smaller).
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.28 08:58:00 - [695] Originally by: Gamesguy Read please. You use a battleship to scout/web. In the event of a bumper, have the bs do a quick scan and if he sees an extra 30 bs that werent on scanner before have the BS guy agro concord. By the time the gank fleet drops out of warp concord will already be on the gate or at most a couple of seconds away. Gank failed. So you loose the BS and the gankers don't loose anything (and they will just wait at the next gate, because logoffski is not a valid tactic for me i'm going to loose a BS at all the gates i have to jump through ). Furthermore it doesn't sound really balanced to me if you have to commit a crime to prevent one. Furthermore this doesn't work for anything smaller then a freighter because those ships will be insta-ganked (even ships like an occator can be killed easily with a few cruisers/BS's) Somehow all the proposed tactics either don't work or don't make any sense which is exactly my point.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.28 09:03:00 - [696] Originally by: Achina Originally by: Gamesguy Read please. You use a battleship to scout/web. In the event of a bumper, have the bs do a quick scan and if he sees an extra 30 bs that werent on scanner before have the BS guy agro concord. By the time the gank fleet drops out of warp concord will already be on the gate or at most a couple of seconds away. Gank failed. So you loose the BS and the gankers don't loose anything (and they will just wait at the next gate, because logoffski is not a valid tactic for me i'm going to loose a BS at all the gates i have to jump through ). Furthermore it doesn't sound really balanced to me if you have to commit a crime to prevent one. Furthermore this doesn't work for anything smaller then a freighter because those ships will be insta-ganked (even ships like an occator can be killed easily with a few cruisers/BS's) Somehow all the proposed tactics either don't work or don't make any sense which is exactly my point. The sec loss for aggression is minimal, and you can have a t1 fitted dominix for about 10 mil. So its no loss when you're hauling billions around. In addition, you just wasted hours of time of that 20 man gang. Time=isk. For smaller ships, learn to read the entire post next time. A nanoed-blockade runner warps far too quickly to be caught. It is effectively invulnerable in highsec, even an inty wont have enough time to lock and scan you(the scan takes 3 seconds with the best named scanner). Anything bigger wont get a lock period.
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:01:00 - [697] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Achina Somehow all the proposed tactics either don't work or don't make any sense which is exactly my point. The sec loss for aggression is minimal, and you can have a t1 fitted dominix for about 10 mil. So its no loss when you're hauling billions around. As i said, all proposed tactics either don't work or don't make any sense. This is a clear case of the latter. Furthermore, if i'm trading and have to fly 10 jumps with the gang chasing me that's 1010mil= 100 mil. I have to get a fitted ship which takes me at least a few minutes each, so that's half an hour. If i'm moving billions, 100 mil is still a lot of profit to loose, not to mention the half an hour extra i need on my 10-jump trip. Quote:* In addition, you just wasted hours of time of that 20 man gang. Time=isk. They just keep scanning for other profitable ships (like they were doing before) Quote: For smaller ships, learn to read the entire post next time. A nanoed-blockade runner warps far too quickly to be caught. It is effectively invulnerable in highsec, even an inty wont have enough time to lock and scan you(the scan takes 3 seconds with the best named scanner). Anything bigger wont get a lock period. Have you seen the skills needed for that ? Do you really think it's ok everybody has to learn those skills just to be able to move a few mil of isk around ? What's the point of normal industrials if you can't even move a few mil of items in it without being a profitable target ?
Logi3 Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:05:00 - [698] A) Dont AFK Travel in your Freighter B) Have a scout C) Travel with backup ----
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:10:00 - [699] Originally by: Achina As i said, all proposed tactics either don't work or don't make any sense. This is a clear case of the latter. Furthermore, if i'm trading and have to fly 10 jumps with the gang chasing me that's 1010mil= 100 mil. I have to get a fitted ship which takes me at least a few minutes each, so that's half an hour. If i'm moving billions, 100 mil is still a lot of profit to loose, not to mention the half an hour extra i need on my 10-jump trip. Have you considered making 2 trips instead? In addition, ft ganks can really only happen in .5 and .6 systems, unless every single jump are in those systems... Also you could just go dock till they go away. Quote:* They just keep scanning for other profitable ships (like they were doing before) Freighter ganking takes far more planning then having someone with a passive targetter sitting on a gate scanning fts. I can tell you for a fact that unless you have a plan and a specific target in mind, very few corps can get 20 battleships to sit at a safespot in highsec for hours on end. Quote: Have you seen the skills needed for that ? Do you really think it's ok everybody has to learn those skills just to be able to move a few mil of isk around ? What's the point of normal industrials if you can't even move a few mil of items in it without being a profitable target ? Umm, industrial 5? Normal industrials can easilly transport a "few mil around". No one is gonna gank an industrial with less than 200mil worth of loot(you can still plate/dcu a normal industrial to make it impossible to gank short of a t2 bs or multiple battlecruisers). A blockade runner is what? 20mil? Well worth the investment. And since when did industry character who dont even have industrial ship 5 have hundreds of millions to haul around with anyways?
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.28 12:30:00 - [700] Edited by: Achina on 28/09/2007 12:30:53 Originally by: Gamesguy Have you considered making 2 trips instead? Thnx, that's exactly my point Quote: Umm, industrial 5? Normal industrials can easilly transport a "few mil around". No one is gonna gank an industrial with less than 200mil worth of loot(you can still plate/dcu a normal industrial to make it impossible to gank short of a t2 bs or multiple battlecruisers). A blockade runner is what? 20mil? Well worth the investment. And since when did industry character who dont even have industrial ship 5 have hundreds of millions to haul around with anyways? Atm also industrials with 'only' a few hundred mil are also ganked. So it seems like they are worth it. Ever thought about people who are not industrials but still have lots of isk ? My first main didn't have industrial 5 untill he was 2 years old. At that time it had several billion in assets. Still all these things are about avoiding a gank but the real problem is that the gankers know in front wether attacking will be profitable or not. They just scan you, know how much is needed to kill you and know how much they will loose.

PauZotoh Zhaan Teylas Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.28 12:54:00 - [701] Eve is all about scam ppl, use them, steal from them, do everthing you cant do in RL. CCP support it. And here's something funny: For the high sec ganker, I can only say that it falls under normal gameplay. I recommend you send a recon character before you transport expensive stuff. An escort team will also be helpful. Best Regards, GM And now lets think about that, how scout can know someone is waiting for hauler to gank it? Maybye he just waiting for war target? Escort? and what escort can do? take what left in can? there's easy way to fix it. make ships scanners to cause agro -> insta pop by sentry second increase sec hit by 500% third for every ship killed at gate non war targets griefer should lose staning with concord thus after few concord will pwned him as soon he enter system So if you want make easy money start scaming, stealing. Remember CCP support this
Liisa Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.28 13:17:00 - [702] Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan Eve is all about scam ppl, use them, steal from them, do everthing you cant do in RL. CCP support it. And here's something funny: For the high sec ganker, I can only say that it falls under normal gameplay. I recommend you send a recon character before you transport expensive stuff. An escort team will also be helpful. Best Regards, GM And now lets think about that, how scout can know someone is waiting for hauler to gank it? Maybye he just waiting for war target? Escort? and what escort can do? take what left in can? there's easy way to fix it. make ships scanners to cause agro -> insta pop by sentry second increase sec hit by 500% third for every ship killed at gate non war targets griefer should lose staning with concord thus after few concord will pwned him as soon he enter system So if you want make easy money start scaming, stealing. Remember CCP support this Or you can use a properly tanked Impel, for example. Best case I have seen is two gank megathrons opening fire on one and both of them getting concordokkened. The impel warped off in structure.
Galan Amarias Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.29 04:09:00 - [703] Originally by: Achina Edited by: Achina on 28/09/2007 12:30:53 Originally by: Gamesguy Have you considered making 2 trips instead? Thnx, that's exactly my point Quote: Umm, industrial 5? Normal industrials can easilly transport a "few mil around". No one is gonna gank an industrial with less than 200mil worth of loot(you can still plate/dcu a normal industrial to make it impossible to gank short of a t2 bs or multiple battlecruisers). A blockade runner is what? 20mil? Well worth the investment. And since when did industry character who dont even have industrial ship 5 have hundreds of millions to haul around with anyways? Atm also industrials with 'only' a few hundred mil are also ganked. So it seems like they are worth it. Ever thought about people who are not industrials but still have lots of isk ? My first main didn't have industrial 5 untill he was 2 years old. At that time it had several billion in assets. Still all these things are about avoiding a gank but the real problem is that the gankers know in front wether attacking will be profitable or not. They just scan you, know how much is needed to kill you and know how much they will loose. Fail, fail, fail. The real problem is not that they know if it will be profitable to kill you. That argument is identical to the "ganking is fine but it shouldn't be profitable" nonsense. It should be profitable, they should be able to see your cargo, unless you are smart and prevent them from getting a good look at it. DON'T BE AFK. A properly fit T1 industrial can move hundreds of millions of ISK through Jita. I do it all the time on 900k sp alt :P She has Industrial 2 and enough sp for inertial stabbs and warp stabbs. Note that cuts down on her cargo room a little waaaahh no big deal the cargo gets where it's going and I'm no industrialist. You want to be an industrialist? well then skill for it. Industrial 5 is nothing, easy as pie to get in less than two months. Probably less than one. There will be no "fix". The situation isn't broken. It does require that you be careful and actually be present at your keyboard while you are running expensive cargo. Then again this is a videogame you should always be present at your keyboard having fun playing the game. If being an industrialist isn't fun, well, I agree. try low sec piracy, that's a blast. No AFK = Win, AFK = Lose. -Galan The answer to empire ganking
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.29 05:24:00 - [704] Wow, big thread. Haven't read the whole thing but I did want to add a comment. If I can run a blockade runner full of goodies through gate camps in 0.0 space, why should something be changed in empire when you don't have warp bubbles, interdictor bubbles etc etc. When you're hauling valueables in empire, have the mindset that you are running blockades in 0.0. Use tech 2 transport ships, use cloaks and of course; NEVER fly afk, always warp to 0. Sure, you will get caught sometimes, just as in 0.0 but your chances of survival are hugely improved. Isn't that the way it should be? --------------
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.29 05:44:00 - [705] Originally by: Liisa Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan Eve is all about scam ppl, use them, steal from them, do everthing you cant do in RL. CCP support it. And here's something funny: For the high sec ganker, I can only say that it falls under normal gameplay. I recommend you send a recon character before you transport expensive stuff. An escort team will also be helpful. Best Regards, GM And now lets think about that, how scout can know someone is waiting for hauler to gank it? Maybye he just waiting for war target? Escort? and what escort can do? take what left in can? there's easy way to fix it. make ships scanners to cause agro -> insta pop by sentry second increase sec hit by 500% third for every ship killed at gate non war targets griefer should lose staning with concord thus after few concord will pwned him as soon he enter system So if you want make easy money start scaming, stealing. Remember CCP support this Or you can use a properly tanked Impel, for example. Best case I have seen is two gank megathrons opening fire on one and both of them getting concordokkened. The impel warped off in structure. http://shiny.euphoria-released.com/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=744&scl_id=14 ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.29 06:11:00 - [706] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Liisa Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan Eve is all about scam ppl, use them, steal from them, do everthing you cant do in RL. CCP support it. And here's something funny: For the high sec ganker, I can only say that it falls under normal gameplay. I recommend you send a recon character before you transport expensive stuff. An escort team will also be helpful. Best Regards, GM And now lets think about that, how scout can know someone is waiting for hauler to gank it? Maybye he just waiting for war target? Escort? and what escort can do? take what left in can? there's easy way to fix it. make ships scanners to cause agro -> insta pop by sentry second increase sec hit by 500% third for every ship killed at gate non war targets griefer should lose staning with concord thus after few concord will pwned him as soon he enter system So if you want make easy money start scaming, stealing. Remember CCP support this Or you can use a properly tanked Impel, for example. Best case I have seen is two gank megathrons opening fire on one and both of them getting concordokkened. The impel warped off in structure. http://shiny.euphoria-released.com/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=744&scl_id=14 You can stop posting now Ridley Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.29 06:33:00 - [707] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Gandolf LOL @ this thread p.s go play wow if u want no risk Irony is strong in this one.... Is that why you scan each ship before the ganking? Just because you dont want to risk? Solution is very easy, Concord should claim/destroy the wreck of the victim of the high sec gank. It should be easy to implement and it will stop tards from camping high sec gates and systems 24/7. It will still leave the posssibility to destroy someone in high sec for other reason, revange for example, it will just be costly to do so and attacker would be punished for aggresion. Holy explative! The Solution?! This thouroughly proves you did not read the link on my sig. Or you did and you are trying really really hard to pretend it's not there and that wasn't a dev post. For those of you wringing your hands about why the devs haven't posted; they haven't posted becase they have posted. Just not here. (Although thanks to my sig they have posted here now.) If High sec ganking was an exploit they would have solved it. Making it impossible is ludicrusly easy. The thing is it's not a frigging exploit! Look waaaay back to the very first post on this thread. The unlamented OP was whining that CCP has allowed freighters to drop their loot. Freighters used to drop nothing when they poped. Then in Rev 2, and bless the devs for it, we got freighter loot. And suddenly a whole bunch of skilless AFK idjits lost their ticket to easy street. Suddenly those big juicy freighters on autopilot were just begging to die. (For anyone reading the autpoilot is a death trap. There is almost never a good reason to use it.) Did the freighter pilots respond, yes. There were two responses. The pilots who like hauling cargo to make BILLIONS and were actually present at their computers for the run adapted and became nearly invulrnable. Those who wanted to AFK while doing whatever else they are doing while not playing the game they are playing realized the only counter they had that did not require them to actually play the game was to come here and try and whine the situation back the way it was. By all that is holy I will see you whinny lot of probably ISK sellers fail. To adress a few earlier points, Ridley calling me a -10 noob is not a counter to my points, it's just childish. As is your nonsense about where pvp combat is "ment to happen". It's ment to happen anywhere you can make it happen. I'm -10 (Actually -9.993 but I'm hoping a few more pods will get me there for real) because it's fun. If you compare my alliance ticker to the eve political map you'll see I live in 0.0 but I vacation in low sec. The drones in my space are kind enough not to tell concord when I kill them though. A final note on Risk vs reward. Both risk and reward in suicide ganking are not defined by the developers. The freighters are not npc spawns. The risk to the gankers is a night of no ganking. The reward is whatever you were foolish enough to stick in your cargo before you hit autopilot and ran to the forums. Read this link. It's amazingly apropriate for this argument. After all Suicide ganking is "Cheep" Playing to win. -Galan Interesting link,so abviously you believe that practice of buying Isk with RL dollars to be acceptable.After all,they spend their RL money to "win".Glad to know where your mentality is at.
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.29 06:36:00 - [708] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Mooku Hehe whats funny about this is that the suicide-gankers are technically right...the irony..o how i love irony...is that by telling the carbears repeatedly over and over high-sec isnt safe...proves how imbecelic this whole thing is...they rely on the safety of high-sec to launch their ambush.Cowards hiding behind mommy(concord).If ya all are such "l33t badasses" as ya like to pretend...why arent ya out intercepting the carriers when they make their cargo transfers to freighter....Il tell ya why...that requires effort..and ya might accidentally get blown up by someone whos actually able to defend their cargo. Sure,CCP might agree with ya too...gj im glad we entered the WoW mentality of "its easy,lets kill it"..gj on the dumbing down,wimping out of EvE...get rid of low sec..thats why low-sec is dead now...the "badasses" cant cut it out there. So i should punch a cop in the face next time i want a crime prevented.Good..il remember that..will these forums stand up as suitable defence in court?What a **in stupid ****** suggestion...but yes the game mechanics work as intended...curious george says all is under control. Awesome..lets just all suicide everything..cuz why..o ya..death means nothing... whatsoever. Curious tho.Why isnt scanning regarded as a hostile act?Ppl dont scan so they can say "hi youv got phat lewts,GJ!".The intent is hostile,it is an intrusive act,violation of privacy etc etc.....any literature on the subject,RL comparison is getting a weapons lock,active pinging with sonars etc etc,creates an "incident".Why isnt this also the case in EVE?...or is it too convenient to scan ppl in high sec until you find the golden nugget...losers. I name thee troll. Post with your main if you want to belittle other's playstyle. Suiciding isn't about the leetness of the kill it's free money. If you were walking down the sidewalk and saw a $20.00 euro whatever would you stop to pick it up? Or would you be the moron who saw the money and instead stood near it heckeling anyone who touched it for not being l33t enough to get a job and earn their money where it was ment to be earned? Seriously. Would you? -Galan No,i would pocket the money.Unless of course i saw the person who dropped the money,then i would return it to them.Not too long ago i actually had to fight with a cashier that they undercharged me on a gas purchase.Its called integrity.
Giatshi	Posted - 2007.09.29 06:38:00 - [709] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Achina Edited by: Achina on 28/09/2007 12:30:53 Originally by: Gamesguy Have you considered making 2 trips instead? Thnx, that's exactly my point Quote: Umm, industrial 5? Normal industrials can easilly transport a "few mil around". No one is gonna gank an industrial with less than 200mil worth of loot(you can still plate/dcu a normal industrial to make it impossible to gank short of a t2 bs or multiple battlecruisers). A blockade runner is what? 20mil? Well worth the investment. And since when did industry character who dont even have industrial ship 5 have hundreds of millions to haul around with anyways? Atm also industrials with 'only' a few hundred mil are also ganked. So it seems like they are worth it. Ever thought about people who are not industrials but still have lots of isk ? My first main didn't have industrial 5 untill he was 2 years old. At that time it had several billion in assets. Still all these things are about avoiding a gank but the real problem is that the gankers know in front wether attacking will be profitable or not. They just scan you, know how much is needed to kill you and know how much they will loose. Fail, fail, fail. The real problem is not that they know if it will be profitable to kill you. That argument is identical to the "ganking is fine but it shouldn't be profitable" nonsense. It should be profitable, they should be able to see your cargo, unless you are smart and prevent them from getting a good look at it. DON'T BE AFK. A properly fit T1 industrial can move hundreds of millions of ISK through Jita. I do it all the time on 900k sp alt :P She has Industrial 2 and enough sp for inertial stabbs and warp stabbs. Note that cuts down on her cargo room a little waaaahh no big deal the cargo gets where it's going and I'm no industrialist. You want to be an industrialist? well then skill for it. Industrial 5 is nothing, easy as pie to get in less than two months. Probably less than one. There will be no "fix". The situation isn't broken. It does require that you be careful and actually be present at your keyboard while you are running expensive cargo. Then again this is a videogame you should always be present at your keyboard having fun playing the game. If being an industrialist isn't fun, well, I agree. try low sec piracy, that's a blast. No AFK = Win, AFK = Lose. -Galan Plz never ever buy anything from the broker again.Much of the stuff there is made by industrialists.Since you dont condone this activity it seem only fitting you dont benefit from these "saps" who do enjoy it.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.09.29 06:45:00 - [710] senseless thread, suicide ganking is not restricatable, deletable, nerfable in any case, it's a game basic physic, not a game mechanic :\| can't boost concord, can't nerf suicide GB2/W0W, /thread, gank closed etc. etc. ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV

Okkie2	Posted - 2007.09.29 07:45:00 - [711] Originally by: Boomershoot senseless thread, suicide ganking is not restricatable, deletable, nerfable in any case, it's a game basic physic, not a game mechanic :\| can't boost concord, can't nerf suicide GB2/W0W, /thread, gank closed etc. etc. It is, plain simple make cargo scanning a hostile act
Ridley Scot Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.29 07:46:00 - [712] Originally by: Giatshi Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Achina Edited by: Achina on 28/09/2007 12:30:53 Originally by: Gamesguy Have you considered making 2 trips instead? Thnx, that's exactly my point Quote: Umm, industrial 5? Normal industrials can easilly transport a "few mil around". No one is gonna gank an industrial with less than 200mil worth of loot(you can still plate/dcu a normal industrial to make it impossible to gank short of a t2 bs or multiple battlecruisers). A blockade runner is what? 20mil? Well worth the investment. And since when did industry character who dont even have industrial ship 5 have hundreds of millions to haul around with anyways? Atm also industrials with 'only' a few hundred mil are also ganked. So it seems like they are worth it. Ever thought about people who are not industrials but still have lots of isk ? My first main didn't have industrial 5 untill he was 2 years old. At that time it had several billion in assets. Still all these things are about avoiding a gank but the real problem is that the gankers know in front wether attacking will be profitable or not. They just scan you, know how much is needed to kill you and know how much they will loose. Fail, fail, fail. The real problem is not that they know if it will be profitable to kill you. That argument is identical to the "ganking is fine but it shouldn't be profitable" nonsense. It should be profitable, they should be able to see your cargo, unless you are smart and prevent them from getting a good look at it. DON'T BE AFK. A properly fit T1 industrial can move hundreds of millions of ISK through Jita. I do it all the time on 900k sp alt :P She has Industrial 2 and enough sp for inertial stabbs and warp stabbs. Note that cuts down on her cargo room a little waaaahh no big deal the cargo gets where it's going and I'm no industrialist. You want to be an industrialist? well then skill for it. Industrial 5 is nothing, easy as pie to get in less than two months. Probably less than one. There will be no "fix". The situation isn't broken. It does require that you be careful and actually be present at your keyboard while you are running expensive cargo. Then again this is a videogame you should always be present at your keyboard having fun playing the game. If being an industrialist isn't fun, well, I agree. try low sec piracy, that's a blast. No AFK = Win, AFK = Lose. -Galan Plz never ever buy anything from the broker again.Much of the stuff there is made by industrialists.Since you dont condone this activity it seem only fitting you dont benefit from these "saps" who do enjoy it. ----------------------------------------------- Stop buying ISK, you are killing the game !
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.29 08:00:00 - [713] Originally by: Galan Amarias Fail, fail, fail. The real problem is not that they know if it will be profitable to kill you. That argument is identical to the "ganking is fine but it shouldn't be profitable" nonsense. It should be profitable, they should be able to see your cargo, unless you are smart and prevent them from getting a good look at it. That argument is not the same. You can earn a lot so you should risk a lot. Atm you risk close to zero and earn a lot - seems very flawed to me. And BTW, ever tried to make a freighter fast enough to prevent a cargo scan ? Fitting nano's is a bit difficult without slots.... Quote: DON'T BE AFK. A properly fit T1 industrial can move hundreds of millions of ISK through Jita. I do it all the time on 900k sp alt :P She has Industrial 2 and enough sp for inertial stabbs and warp stabbs. Note that cuts down on her cargo room a little waaaahh no big deal the cargo gets where it's going and I'm no industrialist. You are just lucky there aren't too many suicide gankers otherwise you would have been killed already. Most industrials and all freighters can not be made fast enough to prevent scanning and thus are easy targets. BTW, the main problem is not in the gank itself, but the way the cargo can be taken by anybody else without any risk. Quote: There will be no "fix". The situation isn't broken. It does require that you be careful and actually be present at your keyboard while you are running expensive cargo. Then again this is a videogame you should always be present at your keyboard having fun playing the game. If being an industrialist isn't fun, well, I agree. try low sec piracy, that's a blast. No AFK = Win, AFK = Lose. -Galan It has nothing to do with being afk or not. You always end up at a gate and you always have to warp away from one. And a freighter (and several indy's) are not fast enough to prevent scanning. It's not about being safe in empire, it's about the risk-reward which is way out of line atm.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.29 08:01:00 - [714] Originally by: Ridley Scot Originally by: Liisa Originally by: PauZotoh Zhaan Eve is all about scam ppl, use them, steal from them, do everthing you cant do in RL. CCP support it. And here's something funny: For the high sec ganker, I can only say that it falls under normal gameplay. I recommend you send a recon character before you transport expensive stuff. An escort team will also be helpful. Best Regards, GM And now lets think about that, how scout can know someone is waiting for hauler to gank it? Maybye he just waiting for war target? Escort? and what escort can do? take what left in can? there's easy way to fix it. make ships scanners to cause agro -> insta pop by sentry second increase sec hit by 500% third for every ship killed at gate non war targets griefer should lose staning with concord thus after few concord will pwned him as soon he enter system So if you want make easy money start scaming, stealing. Remember CCP support this Or you can use a properly tanked Impel, for example. Best case I have seen is two gank megathrons opening fire on one and both of them getting concordokkened. The impel warped off in structure. http://shiny.euphoria-released.com/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=744&scl_id=14 Hey look! More braindead idiots hauling billions of isk of goods afk with cargo expanders. Since when did cargo expanders contribute to tanking?
Cpt Fina Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.09.29 08:02:00 - [715] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Raneru If CCP removed the insurance payouts from criminal acts that still wouldn't deter suicide gankers. So what if I am going to lose 30mil on a T1 BC if I gain 400mil of loot? So if CCP removed insurance-payouts for high-sec ganks you wouldnÆt adjust your targetbase accordingly? Sounds like nice way to get poor really fast to me. But then again, you don't represent all of Eve's suicidegankers. Well, 30M for 400M doesn't sound too bad to me. Almost makes me sorry for my -9something sec status. Suicidegankers will have a lower level of vargovalue in a ship that they can attack and still make profit. Removing insurance will shift that level; they adjust the targetbase accordingly. It might be from 40 mil isk loot to 40 mil and 1 isk loot. Still an adjustment. Utterly wrong. You forgot one thing, sec status. It takes 3 hours of grinding the best rats(and I have access to the best) to get back the sec loss for ONE suicide gank. For that reason alone suicide gankers dont care about the piddly insurance pay out(except on freighters, where the profit margins is FAR smaller). Gamesguy, you aren't the sole spokesman of all suicidegankers. I said that they'd have to adjust their targets accordingly. You say that i'm "Utterly wrong" but shotly thereafter admits that freightergankers would have to do it.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.29 08:05:00 - [716] Originally by: Achina That argument is not the same. You can earn a lot so you should risk a lot. Atm you risk close to zero and earn a lot - seems very flawed to me. And BTW, ever tried to make a freighter fast enough to prevent a cargo scan ? Fitting nano's is a bit difficult without slots.... Quote: Battleship, scout. I've gone over this with you. Its extremely easy to prevent a freighter gank. Quote: You are just lucky there aren't too many suicide gankers otherwise you would have been killed already. Most industrials and all freighters can not be made fast enough to prevent scanning and thus are easy targets. Battleship, scout for the freighter. And my viator has 2.7 second alignement time(checked it on eft), which is about the same as a shuttle give or take. For your information, the fastest cargo scanner has a scan time of 3 seconds. It is literally impossible to scan my alt's viator in highsec. Quote: BTW, the main problem is not in the gank itself, but the way the cargo can be taken by anybody else without any risk. Did you not read that article by ccp where they explicitly condone using a 2nd character to take the loot? Quote: It has nothing to do with being afk or not. You always end up at a gate and you always have to warp away from one. And a freighter (and several indy's) are not fast enough to prevent scanning. All blockade runners are fast enough to prevent scanning as long as you nano it instead of fitting cargo expanders. For freighters its called a ***** bs scout. Quote:** It's not about being safe in empire, it's about the risk-reward which is way out of line atm. You realize it takes 3 hours of 0.0 ratting with the best rats in the game to make up for the sec loss of a single suicide gank?
Phoebios	Posted - 2007.09.29 09:15:00 - [717] I consider suicide ganking as a broken mechanic. Why ? Because hte gankers are not doing this with their main character but with an alt. For me this is not fair. This is just my opinion. One idea: You kill someone in empire. Concord kills you in return. So you get caught. Now you have to pay back Concord. The amount of fee is the base price of the target destroyed. It seems fair. If you succeed in ganking your target and escaping Concord, you make a lot of money. If you fail and get caught by concord you pay. To counter alt/noob character, the fee is linking to the account. So if you create a new character each time, you have to pay the fee anyway, even if it is a new character. The fee is transfer to the new character. Using more than one account to creat ghost/noob character for bypassing rules and risk. This is unfair from my point of view. Sorry for my bad english.
Arngorf Minmatar x13	Posted - 2007.09.29 10:53:00 - [718] Fix this fix that Theres nothing to be fixed, not even if some whine'a'lot guys decide that wont take messures to defend their cargo. I once lost alot of values to a kamikaze player, and I have only got myself to blame. Go play any other MMO and you will have what you want. Just DO NOT mess with this game, I dare you ________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Sharkbait i have untrashed this bug report and i will take care of it.
Achina	Posted - 2007.09.29 11:02:00 - [719] Edited by: Achina on 29/09/2007 11:03:38 Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 29/09/2007 08:06:14 Battleship, scout. I've gone over this with you. Its extremely easy to prevent a freighter gank. And i've already proven that that scout doesn't work, at least not in a way that makes any sense. Quote: Battleship, scout for the freighter. And my viator has 2.7 second alignement time(checked it on eft), which is about the same as a shuttle give or take. For your information, the fastest cargo scanner has a scan time of 3 seconds. It is literally impossible to scan my alt's viator in highsec. So you are still not getting the point. This means industrials are meaningless because you can't even fill the smallest one with T1 items without becoming a profitable target. Quote: Did you not read that article by ccp where they explicitly condone using a 2nd character to take the loot? I know CCP think it's a valid tactic. That's why it isn't labeled an exploit and that's why it is aloowed. But that doesn't make it right, almost invulnerable nanoBS's used to be valid too, but still they changed it because it was unbalanced. Empire ganking is the same. It should be possible, but it's very unbalanced nowadays. Quote: It has nothing to do with being afk or not. You always end up at a gate and you always have to warp away from one. And a freighter (and several indy's) are not fast enough to prevent scanning. All blockade runners are fast enough to prevent scanning as long as you nano it instead of fitting cargo expanders. For freighters its called a ***** bs scout. [/quote As stated before, a bs scout does not work, at least not in a sensible way (committing a crime to have concord on the scene doesn't make sense in any way). Also you are saying in empire normal industrials can not be used anymore (why train for an itty 5 if even an itty 2 can not be filled without becoming a profitable target) Quote:** You realize it takes 3 hours of 0.0 ratting with the best rats in the game to make up for the sec loss of a single suicide gank? Do you know how much isk that makes ? Do you know how much the guy being ganked has worked for all the items in his ship (a few hundred mil at least, let's say he makes 15 mil an hour so at least 20 hours). So you think it's right you can kill somebody else who worked for his items for over 20 hours, gaining at least a few hundred mils, and then work your status back up in less then 3 hours gaining another 50 mil ? You do realize in the end the ganked person has lost 300mil, the ganker gained 200 mil and the ganker didn't have any chance on a loss ? Doesn't really sound balanced to me
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.29 20:36:00 - [720] Originally by: Achina And i've already proven that that scout doesn't work, at least not in a way that makes any sense. No you havent. All you have stated is "it doesnt make any sense". Too bad it works perfectly. Its not my fault you're too stubborn or short sighted to see it. Quote: So you are still not getting the point. This means industrials are meaningless because you can't even fill the smallest one with T1 items without becoming a profitable target. Bull**. For every t1 hauler fileed with billions there is 100 with filled with low end minerals, cheap rig parts, ammo, mission refineables, etc that no one bothers to gank. Quote: I know CCP think it's a valid tactic. That's why it isn't labeled an exploit and that's why it is aloowed. But that doesn't make it right, almost invulnerable nanoBS's used to be valid too, but still they changed it because it was unbalanced. Empire ganking is the same. It should be possible, but it's very unbalanced nowadays. Except with nano-bs even the people who flew them agreed. For suicide ganking besides like the same 3 people whining over and over the vast majority likes the current system. Quote: As stated before, a bs scout does not work, at least not in a sensible way (committing a crime to have concord on the scene doesn't make sense in any way). Also you are saying in empire normal industrials can not be used anymore (why train for an itty 5 if even an itty 2 can not be filled without becoming a profitable target) 1. You havent proven . You just said its "illogical and makes no sense". Too bad it works perfectly. If you dont want to use it because its "illogical" then great, you can keep getting ganked while I get my billions to my destination in my freighter. Quote:** Do you know how much isk that makes ? Do you know how much the guy being ganked has worked for all the items in his ship (a few hundred mil at least, let's say he makes 15 mil an hour so at least 20 hours). So you think it's right you can kill somebody else who worked for his items for over 20 hours, gaining at least a few hundred mils, and then work your status back up in less then 3 hours gaining another 50 mil ? You do realize in the end the ganked person has lost 300mil, the ganker gained 200 mil and the ganker didn't have any chance on a loss ? Doesn't really sound balanced to me You missed the part where the ganker sat on a gate for 6 hours to make that one gank.

Dietric Kalarn Legacy State Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2007.09.29 22:32:00 - [721] Originally by: Achina So you think it's right you can kill somebody else who worked for his items for over 20 hours, gaining at least a few hundred mils, and then work your status back up in less then 3 hours gaining another 50 mil ? You do realize in the end the ganked person has lost 300mil, the ganker gained 200 mil and the ganker didn't have any chance on a loss ? Doesn't really sound balanced to me
Kannuk	Posted - 2007.10.05 07:21:00 - [722] I think the only point that matters is: no risk involved, due to scanning to be sure of the target. haulers cannot be used what they are intended for without fear of this tactic. its always profitable and there is no loss to the attacker other than .1 sec hit for 300 mil.
Bo Bojangles Minmatar High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.16 09:39:00 - [723] Pro-gankers will never give up on this argument, and why should they? This can be some of the most profitable business in the game. As for myself, I'd like to refrain from doing this as I just consider it in bad form, cheap, and I prefer setting my guns on ships that can fight me back, call me old-fashioned, but it's just honorable to me. You argue that haulers should ditch the expanders, fit to tank and escape. I'm no hauler pilot but looking at the stats of these Occators and Mastodons, I still wouldn't like to be piloting one of these ships through a high-sec gate camp. The problem remains. It's been said in this thread that Corcord's job is not to protect, but in fact they are protecting, and they are protecting the aggressors in these camps up until the point that the pirate has accomplished his/her goal. Is this Concord's purpose? That said, even though I don't like the idea of playing on such a cheap level, I'd be a fool not to take up this practice in replacement of the hours and hours spent ratting or mining in order to earn my ISK. Perhaps if everyone did the same, then we'd see what effect, if any, it has on Eve's economy as a whole.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.10.16 10:06:00 - [724] Working as Intended EVE is made on the base that everywhere you are, you can pew pew (even in stations, soon). if you do that in certains area however, you get concordokken. but you can still pvp in epire as in ls as in 0.0, there is no place to hide...ah wait, stations :( so yes, suicide ganking is WAI ----------------------------------------------- "1, 2, 3, shuttle reprocessing is right for me"
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.07 19:52:00 - [725] CONCORD will now respond to aggressing drones during criminal acts by deactivating a pilot's capability to control them. ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:07:00 - [726] oh and CONCORD have been upgrading again. Their weapons and support abilities now have unimaginable range. Apparently they have also heard about these Microwarp Drive things and installed them. ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 21:16:00 - [727] Originally by: Bo Bojangles Pro-gankers will never give up on this argument, and why should they? This can be some of the most profitable business in the game. As for myself, I'd like to refrain from doing this as I just consider it in bad form, cheap, and I prefer setting my guns on ships that can fight me back, call me old-fashioned, but it's just honorable to me. You argue that haulers should ditch the expanders, fit to tank and escape. I'm no hauler pilot but looking at the stats of these Occators and Mastodons, I still wouldn't like to be piloting one of these ships through a high-sec gate camp. The problem remains. It's been said in this thread that Corcord's job is not to protect, but in fact they are protecting, and they are protecting the aggressors in these camps up until the point that the pirate has accomplished his/her goal. Is this Concord's purpose? That said, even though I don't like the idea of playing on such a cheap level, I'd be a fool not to take up this practice in replacement of the hours and hours spent ratting or mining in order to earn my ISK. Perhaps if everyone did the same, then we'd see what effect, if any, it has on Eve's economy as a whole. Actually I think it would have a highly beneficial effect on the economy. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.


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