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We the undersigned protest suicide ganking and request changes.

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Kritinana	Posted - 2007.03.31 04:18:00 - [211] Having seen many a threads about this, i didn't have mind to read every single post up to here as i'm sure i've already read these same comments many times elswhere. So if someones already said this, my apologies to you. Imho the only thing that should be changed about this is insurance payouts being null and void in the event of concordokken. It not only doesn't make any sense as it is, and also provides an imbalanced method of income in regard to the risk/reward way of things. That said, nothing else regarding this issue should be changed. If someone has the forsight to put together a viable group, and actually use cargo scanners to weigh the gank value / uninsured ship losses in a manner that is actually profitable in the long run........good for them. If you're flying 50mil worth of stuff into jita in a t1 w/ 5 locals, you're asking for trouble, and it should be that way. But the kamikazi boys should have to scan and think about their gain/loss ratio. As it is they can be indiscriminate and turn an overall profit regardless. In summation, high sec is not idiot (stuff pinata t1 haulers) proof, and shouldn't be. However, nor should there be a 0 risk means of turning profit. By no means should suicide ganking be made imposible though. In terms of the avid miner, it is the only means of combating stubborn macro miners/isk farmers. The stubborn iskers can defend easily enough against ore theft via actually using secures (which i have seen them do), and kamikaze style is the only available means of shouting loud and clear to them, "get the **** out of my system, and stay out". Even considering a lack of insurance pay out, to someone who actually mines a particular system, it is worth the loss in the long run. If the ability to do this was removed, the farmers would be able to operate with impunity, and we all know how much good it does to petition (null). my 2isk, carry on....
Krytie	Posted - 2007.05.13 00:13:00 - [212] Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 00:12:19 I think the insurance being voided should be a penalty as well. But, not just because of freighters and gang ganking. But, this is due to a more realistic scenario if someone gets into a fight with the police, then illegal action should avoid the insurance, just like if you let a friend fly the ship and it gets blown up, your insurance is revoked. Now, the only in-game mechanics is that if more than 1 person hits, they should all get attacked, maybe with more police coming after them or the police breaking up a bit and attacking. But, then again, this is police tactics, so even keeping it the same way as it is now is fine with me. I fly a freighter and you are basically a sitting duck in the thing, but I do believe that safe space should not be 100% safe. I think the gang tactics are realistic in a way. But....... I do feel that the freighter should have some form of protection. In my idea.... a drone bay would be a great addition. It would not allow someone to make a nano freighter, but it also will allow the freighter to defend itself, protect itself, and at least use repair drones to defray the HUGE costs of repairing that monsters armor. I would say, give give about 1K m3 of space for the drones. The pilot could only launch 5 at a time and the fighter drones would be too big to fit. In order to implement this, maybe make a rig slot for a freighter drone bay expander. Lose 10% cargohold, but gain 1000 m3 of drone bay. Make it the only rig that could fit. Also, give this rig a HUGE CPU usage and a special bonus for a freighter of 99% reduction in CPU Usage and PowerGrid usage per level. Thus, another ship could not add it.... similar to the covert ops cloaking device. I personally would not mind losing 75K of space if I could at least defend myself and repair a bit.
Le Skunk Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 01:57:00 - [213] Originally by: Krytie Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 00:12:19 I think the insurance being voided should be a penalty as well. But, not just because of freighters and gang ganking. But, this is due to a more realistic scenario if someone gets into a fight with the police, then illegal action should avoid the insurance, just like if you let a friend fly the ship and it gets blown up, your insurance is revoked. Now, the only in-game mechanics is that if more than 1 person hits, they should all get attacked, maybe with more police coming after them or the police breaking up a bit and attacking. But, then again, this is police tactics, so even keeping it the same way as it is now is fine with me. I fly a freighter and you are basically a sitting duck in the thing, but I do believe that safe space should not be 100% safe. I think the gang tactics are realistic in a way. But....... I do feel that the freighter should have some form of protection. In my idea.... a drone bay would be a great addition. It would not allow someone to make a nano freighter, but it also will allow the freighter to defend itself, protect itself, and at least use repair drones to defray the HUGE costs of repairing that monsters armor. I would say, give give about 1K m3 of space for the drones. The pilot could only launch 5 at a time and the fighter drones would be too big to fit. In order to implement this, maybe make a rig slot for a freighter drone bay expander. Lose 10% cargohold, but gain 1000 m3 of drone bay. Make it the only rig that could fit. Also, give this rig a HUGE CPU usage and a special bonus for a freighter of 99% reduction in CPU Usage and PowerGrid usage per level. Thus, another ship could not add it.... similar to the covert ops cloaking device. I personally would not mind losing 75K of space if I could at least defend myself and repair a bit. It raiseth the dead. SKUNK
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:07:00 - [214] What imbecile loads billions in goods into a freighter and runs afk? I am a noob with assets less than your pocket change and I donÆt even use autopilot to carry anything anywhere at all. I warp to 0 every time I go anywhere, especially distant runs like Jita and I watch every thing that gets remotely near me. You would have us believe that freighter pilots are running billions in cargo while afk? I donÆt buy that for an instant.. That is not credible at all.
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:14:00 - [215] Edited by: Larg Kellein on 13/05/2007 02:16:40 Major problem with the OP: Your premise that those who wish to be safe have the right to. This is EVE, nowhere is safe. This is by design, even the tutorial says this. Edit: Eeeehm, not really adding much, hadn't noticed the whole "this thread is 8 pages long" thing before I replied... Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Nim9i5	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:34:00 - [216] Edited by: Nim9i5 on 13/05/2007 02:37:36 ccp constantly changing game rules Empire ganking is so EASYYYYY!!! What does it take 20 domis? with the prices these days after insurance that is like 10 mil from each person involved, or 200 mil in total. SO 200 mil for upwards of 1 bill to god knows how much, big risk, big risk. Not really.
Krytie	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:38:00 - [217] Edited by: Krytie on 13/05/2007 02:37:17 Well, yes, the freighter is used for moving large amounts of stuff around... I move things up to 750K m3 in it.So, yes, moving 750K of the rarer minerals or moving corporations around require many many jumps or 1 jump in a freighter. Now, I do not take tech II blueprints in the freighter, but, in a cloaked covert ops ship to avoid. So, billion and billions , no... but 100s of millions of ISKs worth of stuff is easy. But, I do always take a small escort if moving stuff even in high sec. I personally would like to have some type of protection for myself. It would be a little more interesting than watching myself slowly die... ha ha ha ha
POTUS Pimpology Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:49:00 - [218] I'll say this again. If you are going to make a freighter drop it's loot like every other ship in the game, let them equip their ship like every other ship in the game. Before you start to flame me about shuttles, shut up you noob.
Xelios Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.13 02:58:00 - [219] Originally by: Nim9i5 Edited by: Nim9i5 on 13/05/2007 02:37:36 ccp constantly changing game rules Empire ganking is so EASYYYYY!!! What does it take 20 domis? with the prices these days after insurance that is like 10 mil from each person involved, or 200 mil in total. SO 200 mil for upwards of 1 bill to god knows how much, big risk, big risk. Not really. Actually it's about 40 mil per person. Insurance, drones and fittings aren't free.
Savesti Kyrsst Minmatar White-Noise	Posted - 2007.05.13 03:36:00 - [220] Holy Necro, Batman! How about if there's more than 5 aggressors a Concord Titan spawns and DD's the grid, just for comedy value? I'm sure that wouldn't be exploitable in any way at all.

Sandslinger	Posted - 2007.05.13 03:53:00 - [221] The last thread i saw about a freighter getting ganked it was 15 Domi's it took 36 seconds to pop, i'e before concord even showed up. So all that would be needed is 15 Domi's and 15 Ogre's II's. For the people that are saying about freighters goign AFK or whatever. Here's a few points about freighters Nr1. Going 10 Jumps even with warp to 0 can be 30 minutes + of work(freighters gets bumped easily). Going into Jita 4/4 means 15-20 minutes getting out(freighters take a LONG time to align and to get far away enough from station to turn round) Nr2 With a Domi gang as described earlier you would need a SERIOUS repper gang to even think about it being possible counteracting it. Someone made a point about anybody managing to scramble a 15-20 man BS gang to take out a freighter deserves the chance for the amount of work put in. That begs the question what profit/value does a freighter pilots business deserve for managing to move about with a major blob of repper ships NON-STOP or making huge detours to avoid potential empire camps(see point Nr1) Nr3 Someone made the point that all you need is a huggin webbing the freighter so it can insta warp and how easy it is to avoid systems with a obvious 15 man blob on the gate. this person has obviously never flown a freighter or passed through empire very much to see how many gates actually have 15 man blobs that re totally unrelated to you Firstly a freigther can take so damn long just to turn towards your new warp spot that a gang could sit outside scan range and hit the gate before it has aligned for "insta-web warp" And being empire it's not like you can use local to get any idea of wether any of the 100 guys in system are waiting to do just that. Of course you can make safespot bookmarks soutfacing so freighter can instawarp right out of cloak with no alignment needed, and then warp from there to the gate. great! it's not like freighter hauling even for short distances doesn't completely ruin a night of play already timewise due to the incredibly slow alignment times. A point that I find often happens in EVE, which is something as easily used for sheer griefing as this is fine as long as it isn't overdone(see casefile MoO or Privateers) Where CCP should be looking at the potential griefing potential they tend to ignore it in favour of the "actual" griefing taking place right at the very moment Someone else made a point about how we dont know if CCP's isnt looking into a way for freighter reliant businesses to protect their investment in freighters already. Common sense would dictate this would be implemented Before implemnting freighters dropping loot which they have been working hard on for a long time. As a corp we have moved about a lot, and everytime we move we have a freighter pilot that just loads up on our assets includiong player assets and takes it to a new empire drop off point where it meets 0.0/low-sec thus saving our corp members a LOT of time and hassle, (moving 200 ships 40 jumps is a LOT of time, more time then a lot of players would invest for the benefit of staying with the corp) Now the freighter pilot has stuck the freighter up for sale, there just isnt a point keeping anything that is that costly, and which can't be reliably defended against in empire. Hell attacking the attackers is even dodgy as reliably deducing who is and isnt attacking is hell in emp against droneusers and with 36 seconds to kill the attackers it's not like you can take your time to make clear deductions. We used to run a POS fueling servive, but with the current risks there is no way in hell we will re-invest in that venture which is a real shame as it really did bring the corp together last time we did it. Con'td
Sandslinger	Posted - 2007.05.13 04:04:00 - [222] Edited by: Sandslinger on 13/05/2007 04:10:55 From a RP perspective I've always thought the whole suicide thing is the messed up aspect of EVE, yeah it is a PVP game and there SHOULD be risk vs reward. Suiciding against targets in emp is NO risk vs reward when you can see your reward. The idea to me that Insurance pays out when you suicide in empire is just the most f'ked up thing, furthermore that a empire station that obviously wants to promote free trade would even consider honouring a clone agrement with someone who just suicided a trader that would potentially make their station worth keeping in trade tax is ridicolous. What do I recomend. Please Please Please get out there and start suiciding freighter pilots, nothing will be done to address this until large scale trade halts to a stop in empire. I'd love to see all the people that flamed the people asking for a adress to this issue when they realise how much low end mineral hauling production for even a single BS really requires. Or even the trade goods for running pos which so many corps now rely on fuel delivery businesses to supply suddenly dries up. Privateers I believe CCP killed your way of life just to give you another better opportunity to kill at will and make absolute billions in the process, maybe even enough to keep your wardecs going infinitily So get out there and start popping freighters by the hundreds !! You wont even need to wardec anyone to do it, wardeccing is so last year Just a sidenote about regular indy ganking, now this is a exploit, however one that is alsmot impossible to catch out. How to do it make a 2 day old alt flying a caracal get a few friends to do the same and start popping indies, when the sec status drops too low kill the char and reroll. The potential earning if you really keep at it should pay for the account just by itself. Maybe someone will even make a corp or alliance dedicated to just such chars, and maybe when it goes way to far CCP will actually look at the issue as a real problem that needs addressed. Disclaimer : I didnt get laid tonight and so had nothing better to do then write this, any typographical or grammatical errors are the direct result of sexual frustration
Jahah Smith Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.05.13 04:33:00 - [223] Edited by: Jahah Smith on 13/05/2007 04:32:15 Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Have someone in the same corp as the freighter web it into warp so they cannot get a lock on it, I have seen freighters warp in under 3 seconds using that method Link removed, lacks eve-related content. -Hango Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Xelios Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.05.13 05:19:00 - [224] Originally by: Jahah Smith Edited by: Jahah Smith on 13/05/2007 04:32:15 Originally by: Humpalot Originally by: Sphynix If something is worth that much that you just cannot afford to loose it and you cannot fly something that will protect it, then hire someone to ship it for you. Sure it cuts into your profits but at least you still have something. Explain to me how you protect a Freighter in hi sec from a suicide gank of 20 or so battleships. CONCORD will kill the lot of them before you'd get off a handful of shots. Have someone in the same corp as the freighter web it into warp so they cannot get a lock on it, I have seen freighters warp in under 3 seconds using that method QFT. Any time I've been involved in a freighter op there was always someone in an inty to web the freighter into warp. Time from decloak to warp was typically 3-4 seconds. That same inty can scout ahead 1 jump due to the difference in warp speeds. A gang of domis waiting at the gate is easily spotted, a gang waiting at a safe spot has no time to get to the gate and attack the freighter before it's in warp. All it takes is 1 inty.
Marden Grace Caldari Sentinels Of Justice Tactical Command	Posted - 2007.05.13 05:46:00 - [225] As much as I hate the idea of suicide ganking freighters (as it could end up being mine), a webber does reduce warp out time to a few seconds. Unless someone bumps it (indeed a possibility) then it shouldn't fall prey to a gank.
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:03:00 - [226] Essentially there should be no insurance payout for criminals who lose their ship in a criminal act. On a side note encouraging suicide ganks is counter productive to the "Need For Speed" initiative by CCP. Blob warfare causes huge lag and 25 + BSs unloading on a Freighter + CONCORD + somewhat busy high sec system...Well it doesn't take much to imagine how far a plunge your frame rate will go.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:23:00 - [227] Edited by: Mnengli Noiliffe on 13/05/2007 06:22:07 didn't read all the pages but have to commend on the OP. IMO it's written in wrong mood.. you see, devs have already said numerous times that hi sec is not 100% secure. however there is IMO too little risk for too much reward for the gankers as they get most of their investments back as insurance. Thus, what needs to be done is to remove insurance payout for concord and faction navy/customs kills. sorry for redundancy.
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.13 06:45:00 - [228] Edited by: UGWidowmaker on 13/05/2007 06:44:40 you cant protect your freighters... any saying this is not knowing of game mechanisms.. as some stated it takes less than 1 minut to take a freighter down, now even with a FLEET as defense that wouldent be time enough to save the freigher. and the defense cant shoo the agressors before its ot late as concord will then **** em up! so defense and such cant be done in a proper way!. to much crap atm.. i sugest to keep freighters in station as protest till ccp boost concord... they should be there insta jam the agresors in 1.0 and the less sec the slower responce and less chance of them jamming the agressor. i think ill start using my alt and start gank freighters cause thats where the big isk atm.. ohh and the insurance company even pay back my big ship, so who cares... i loose 35 mill but gain maybe 2 or 4 billl.. ha ha thats good buizness. cant u see ccp that there is something wrong here... as some said earliere if u agress in 1.0 and down to 0.5 your friendly insurance company shouldent even consider paying out the amount of isk... and btw when in war insurance shouldent work either... thats just lame. (when killed or kill the war targets) if we suck at pvp then why come fight us all the time ???
Namtaru	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:31:00 - [229] GM: Sorry about your ship loss, nothing we can do. If you dont like it, please quit the game. We don't need you, we have plenty of other paying customers.
miskagirl	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:53:00 - [230] Quote: Actually it's about 40 mil per person. Insurance, drones and fittings aren't free. less *****, it isnt even 10 million. a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol.

Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.06.29 16:57:00 - [231] Originally by: miskagirl a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. No fittings? Do they bump the freighter to death? Do they yell at him in local until he pops? Less posting more thinking kthx. Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Do they now? You know this how? Originally by: miskagirl c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol. How many suicide freighter ganks have you been in to give you this expansive knowledge about it? /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:18:00 - [232] I honestly don't see any change that could be made that wouldn't take away the spirit of eve.
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:41:00 - [233] Originally by: Sphynix This is, after all, a PvP game - according to the devs. I dont think you understand what "PVP" means. Monopoly is a PVP game. Counter Strike is a PVP game. Chess is a PVP game. In 2 of the three no one dies. PVP does not mean shooting peeps. Shooting peeps is however PVP. So is being a trader. You have to move it faster then the next guy or you lose. So is being a builder. You have to build it faster or cheaper then the other guy or you lose.
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 17:42:00 - [234] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: miskagirl a) they dont use fittings duh! if they do they are t1 junk. No fittings? Do they bump the freighter to death? Do they yell at him in local until he pops? Less posting more thinking kthx. Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Do they now? You know this how? Originally by: miskagirl c) they use t1 drones....hardly expensive lol. How many suicide freighter ganks have you been in to give you this expansive knowledge about it? /Ki Maybe he thought it through and realised that T2 mods and drones on a ship who's only function is to put 5 drones on a freighter and wait to die would be somewhat redundant. As far as I can see all you need is hitpoints (Plates) maybe a sensor booster and the T1 drones. Add a Vigil or two to the gang for the warp scrambling and a scanner ship or two and bar the loot indys yr good to go it seems to me. And if I was expending Domis on a daily basis I would certainly be rolling my own. Sounds like common sense to me. Dunno why you had to flame him. Guess it's habit now.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:27:00 - [235] Originally by: Morgann Atreus Maybe he thought it through and realised that T2 mods and drones on a ship who's only function is to put 5 drones on a freighter and wait to die would be somewhat redundant. Don't think he thought it through, as he clearly lacked knowledge of the fact that you sort of need fittings in order to destroy another ship. Another point is that it's a lot better to use t2 drones, as they outdamage t1 by a large degree, and they won't be destroyed by concord once your ship pops. At least that has been my experience, and apart from many others in this thread, I do have experience when it comes to suicide ganking a freighter. Only once, and on a contract, but some of the points made here for the anti-suicide crowd are simply laughable when you have experienced the truth of the matter. Originally by: Morgann Atreus As far as I can see all you need is hitpoints (Plates) Not any more, as Concord now jams the drones after they show up, thus making survivability for the actual gank-ship redundant. Originally by: Morgann Atreus maybe a sensor booster and the T1 drones. Sensor booster is pointless and the drones should be t2. Originally by: Morgann Atreus Add a Vigil or two to the gang for the warp scrambling and a scanner ship or two and bar the loot indys yr good to go it seems to me. Why not scramble with the gank-ships? Originally by: Morgann Atreus And if I was expending Domis on a daily basis I would certainly be rolling my own. Does freighter suicide ganking strike you as something that occurs on a daily basis? Originally by: Morgann Atreus Sounds like common sense to me. Not really. Originally by: Morgann Atreus Dunno why you had to flame him. Guess it's habit now. Because he's amusingly mistaken in his points, yet he deems to demean another poster. /Ki Joy to the world Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Christari Zuborov	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:31:00 - [236] * - Contract the services of other players, form merchant trains with escorts, pay your people well. * - Use logistic cruisers with remote repair drones, remote shield drones, this will buy you enough time for CONCORD to finish the offenders. One more suggestion, if you feel like you're walking a grocery cart filled $100 bills through the middle of Compton, then it's really time for you to move out. Start thinking about moving to 0.0 because you're counting on CONCORD to provide services they can't and were never meant to handle. If you remain in 1.0 and act foolish, expect for foolish things to happen to you. You're a big boy or big girl now, I know the world is big scary place, but thank god for clones.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:32:00 - [237] Originally by: Creed Richards Now, don't get me wrong, I can respect piracy and the "spice" it provides to the game, but I think it should only be in areas where the risk is understood and accepted, which is everywhere. I'm not against empire wars either, though I have heard of PvP in that area as well, but that is another question. Fixed. - You keep using that word . . . I do not think it means what you think it means
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:35:00 - [238] Originally by: miskagirl b) they produce their own ships so it is min cost only not market cost. Exept that they could have sold these ships for market cost instead. The "cost" of an item is always market cost. Spending your time getting the minerals and bpos/bpcs has a value, it's not "for free".
Morgann Atreus	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:42:00 - [239] Didn't know about the drone jamming which obviously changes the rules; I assume this is post patch?
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.29 18:56:00 - [240] Originally by: POTUS I'll say this again. If you are going to make a freighter drop it's loot like every other ship in the game, let them equip their ship like every other ship in the game. Before you start to flame me about shuttles, shut up you noob. QFT ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED



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