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Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.14 11:39:00 - [181] Here's the previous week of same issue, This lag is absurd. And the week before that, Fix Fleet Lag
Nadjer	Posted - 2007.04.14 12:00:00 - [182] I'm fairly new to the game and haven't experienced any large scale pvp yet and all this talk about lag and people quitting over it is making me want to quit before i've even started.
Spacian	Posted - 2007.04.14 12:43:00 - [183] Originally by: Nadjer I'm fairly new to the game and haven't experienced any large scale pvp yet and all this talk about lag and people quitting over it is making me want to quit before i've even started. I think it's more because of the fact that even if some CCP guy chimed in and acknowledged that the lag is an issue, it would take them years to fix it. Heck, it took CCP 10 months to change the trainable skill icons.
F9OOEX	Posted - 2007.04.14 12:56:00 - [184] As someone as pointed out before...Eve looks good on paper, the simple fact is Lag > Eve > Lag .... Until things improve, I'm using my ISK to buy GCs ,I can't be bothered paying $14.95 a month for this game anymore. Eve was my 1st MMORPG and it will be my last... To many new PC games coming out to bother that would provide better playability and very little lag. I can only assume the lag with get worse with new features are added. I feel like where talking to ourself's here, preaching to the choir... this thread and many other threads like this you never hear CCP say anything. I maybe only 1 person, a small fish in a great big pond where all thats told to me is move to another system. But considering how wide spread the lag is, its simply unacceptable.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.04.14 13:21:00 - [185] It seems pretty obvious to me that Eve is suffering from multiple issues. The server lag has always been there, it has just varied by degrees of severity. I do think CCP's efforts have improved some issues with server lag. Jita for example, is still a laggy system, but it's average low end has improved. The client on the other hand, has been getting more and more funky. I really think the seamless map brought all sorts of evil to the client that still has yet to be sorted. I know there have been many graphics and fps issues that came with kali, and many of those remain. I think some of these issues are new since a month or so. For instance, the issue with freeze up or stutter on NPC missions where tons of NPC agro you at once, I noticed for the first time in the last month or so. It seems to be an effect buffering issue since it doesn't happen until a bunch of rats start shooting at you. Something has changed lately and has piled on to the rest of the niggling issues. I really think we are nearing the threshold for common player tolerance. CCP needs to at least make a "here's the deal" statement. ------------------- Say What?
Stray Spider Gallente Magnetar Ltd Dark Synergy	Posted - 2007.04.14 13:26:00 - [186] Edited by: Stray Spider on 14/04/2007 13:22:44 i bet CCP never thought there would be any bigger issue than the credibility issue (regarding t20) . i think LAG is the greatest enemy of EVE. Dronebugs, balancing, etc. seem tiny in comparison
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.04.14 14:48:00 - [187] Originally by: FireFoxx80 Edited by: FireFoxx80 on 14/04/2007 08:00:25 Matthew, yes you are right about the numbers I used. I completely forgot about grids when I made my argument. I guess a solution would be to not necessarily have n systems per node; but in fact to have m grids per node/process. You'd have to change the code substantially to keep with this idea, but it allows for far more flexibility. They have mentioned the possibility of reducing the granularity of the process to be able to put different grids on different nodes. But it's always been in the context of a "when all else fails" measure, and something that would have a massive lead time on it. It's something they also avoided in the past because of the "stuck while jumping" issues, which would have become "stuck while warping" if you had grids on different nodes. There seem to be much less (non-lag-related) "stuck while jumping" problems than there used to be, so this may not be as much of a problem anymore. Of course, that still wouldn't help the situation when your entire fleet wants to attack the same target simultaneously, as you'll still be cramming everyone into a single grid. Originally by: FireFoxx80 Edit: I am certain at one point the devs were investigating the possibility of pre-loading the target grid (and models, etc) whilst in warp. Though I've no idea how the warp mechanics work; whether you warp immediately from grid A to grid D, or whether you pass through grids B and C in the process. The answer to this would certainly explain whether we can or cannot have mid-warp loading of target grids, and potential mid-warp interdiction. I also remember them saying that. However, given that most of the benefits of pre-loading would probably be to ease client-side graphics related issues (loading models, textures etc), it could be that they put it back as a feature of the new graphics engine, rather than trying to re-tool an engine they were planning to drop anyway. Incidentally, that's probably the reason why pretty much any non-game-breaking graphics issue won't be being addressed right now. Originally by: Ortu Konsinni Yes... except no. Unless the GMs have access to different logs than BRs, but GMs claim their logs show zilch. The logs you produce with the logserver are different to the logs the GM's can see. The GM's can see server logs, those the logserver produce are client logs. If your client is doing something insane, the server logs are likely to show nothing, but the client logs could be crammed full of error spam. Still, I wouldn't expect submitting logserver files to help in a reimbursement petition, they can be faked if you're clever enough. But submitting them as a BR will at least help to get the issue sorted. And before you suggest that the client should report logs to the server, bear in mind that 1 evening of play for me with the logserver enabled generated about 200Mb of logserver file, and that wasn't even doing anything paricularly serious. Originally by: Spacian I think it's more because of the fact that even if some CCP guy chimed in and acknowledged that the lag is an issue, it would take them years to fix it. Heck, it took CCP 10 months to change the trainable skill icons. Changing icons took time because it's a low priority change. Fixing lag takes time because it requires serious code and gameplay design changes. Those things take a long time to do regardless of how high a priority it is. At least if you want to make sure you don't wreck more than you fix. Originally by: Roy Batty68 For instance, the issue with freeze up or stutter on NPC missions where tons of NPC agro you at once, I noticed for the first time in the last month or so. Hmm, this is an interesting theory that might hold water. In both this situation and the PvP fleet fight, when the lag occurs is also when you'd expect a lot of locking to be going on. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Sniser 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.04.14 19:03:00 - [188] Originally by: Matthew Originally by: ElCoCo If you think it's a nightmare to rewrite the code (understandable), I think in the long run, it's going to cost much much more to keep adding servers (but ofcourse have no facts to support this) The trickier way is to try and live-move the system. The new node would effectively try and mirror the old one until the new one was ready, then players would be seamlessly handed over, then the old node closed. The trouble with that process is that it generates a huge amount of cross-node traffic during the start&sync process. which isn't going to help matters if your node is already on the point of dying. Of course, none of that will help huge fleet battles unless you also make it that different grids in the system can be on different nodes, because the huge battles will bust even a dedicated node. The trouble with that is that every warp will potentially have to do the same as a jump does now. Originally by: ElCoCo Remember that what we actualy experienced here is related, but not what we're used to as far as lag is concerned. Client freezes completely for actual minutes, not delay in module activation etc to which we're used to. Ahh sorry, I hadn't fully appreciated that, but I have just experienced the "lock up" lag that you described. Looks to me like someone's introduced an evil blocking call where there shouldn't be one. logfiles in BR's may help the devs spot what's locking things up. and why not instead do this when the server is dying, just be a bit more foresighted and if One system have 200 - 300 guys in local or more but they arent fighting yet. Just give them a single node because if there are in one single system many guys is because its preparing a big huge fight. CCP guys could have some special nodes with ultra huge hardware used only for those big fleet battles and the other nodes just for usually things
Beetle Boy Minmatar Obsidian Inc. KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.14 21:11:00 - [189] Originally by: Roy Batty68 It seems pretty obvious to me that Eve is suffering from multiple issues. The server lag has always been there, it has just varied by degrees of severity. I do think CCP's efforts have improved some issues with server lag. Jita for example, is still a laggy system, but it's average low end has improved. The client on the other hand, has been getting more and more funky. I really think the seamless map brought all sorts of evil to the client that still has yet to be sorted. I know there have been many graphics and fps issues that came with kali, and many of those remain. I think some of these issues are new since a month or so. For instance, the issue with freeze up or stutter on NPC missions where tons of NPC agro you at once, I noticed for the first time in the last month or so. It seems to be an effect buffering issue since it doesn't happen until a bunch of rats start shooting at you. Something has changed lately and has piled on to the rest of the niggling issues. I really think we are nearing the threshold for common player tolerance. CCP needs to at least make a "here's the deal" statement. Don't start about jita why does ccp carry on like this stop jita have 700 people in on a night and have item sold at differnet places its stupid just make it minmatar good sold in minmatar space. caldari in caldari space and so on just small things could help
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.04.14 22:13:00 - [190] Originally by: Beetle Boy Don't start about jita why does ccp carry on like this stop jita have 700 people in on a night and have item sold at differnet places its stupid just make it minmatar good sold in minmatar space. caldari in caldari space and so on just small things could help Wasn't trying to justify Jita getting special attention, was simply noting that CCP made an effort towards addressing server lag and it seemed to help in the case of Jita. Besides, lets not get lost in whats what. The latest problems seem to be stemming from the client somehow. It would be nice to get a technical "Yo!" from CCP to give us hints on how we might help them track down the problems. ------------------- Say What?
Just Smith Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.04.14 22:25:00 - [191] ccp would never admit to they been a problem in the frist place, as it might cost them a few new players which are checking out the forums before they start and it would not change the fact that they is a problem. All you can do is hope that the next patch fixs it and not makes it worse. though they are some people that try to make lag to effect others but ccp will not take any action against them for the same reason as it would be to declare that theys a problem. I just holding out hope for the new client when every that comes out.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.15 00:19:00 - [192] Here goes. The other threads died and I'm still bored of not being able to play Eve. For those that insist that lag and Tranquility are to blame here, think again. Have a quick read of Molden Heath is the most laggiest region EVER? (Single page thread). At the bottom I described a brief overview of the decoupling that both the client and server perform. With said decoupling, framerate cannot directly be impacted by lag.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.15 02:29:00 - [193] Originally by: Solbright With said decoupling, framerate cannot directly be impacted by lag. So how do you explain what we're experiencing? I have a pretty good idea what's happening. And it has nothing to do with the (by definition) frames per second our PC can generate. The client is having hickups. My guess? Node can't handle stuff. But sends/receives data anyway at low rate. Client tries to keep up with the action, but with the low rate data comes and goes, it gets stuck on a catch-up loop and while it's at it, everything is frozen. The little video that was posted here isn't the actual terrible problem we're describing. That's normal network lag since you can move the camera etc as usual, but the system hasn't loaded up. Fraps actualy shuts down (!) when our problem occurs. So in essence, it's not our PC's not being capable of drawing the little squares fast enough. Rhe client is just frozen and the rendering just happens on the first available moment where the client has caught up, even for just a split second, giving the impression of low fps. So it's two things to blame simultaneously... node isn't up to the task and client has faulty code. As simple as that.
Mister Zero Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.15 04:00:00 - [194] It's pointless. EVE is and has been for a very long time, a solo (or small group) effort. Even then, getting ganked by a couple of pirates in a moderately crowded system is pointless. You can't fight back, even if you try, no telling if your mods/guns will actually be on. EVE is f'd and all the promises from CCP are nothing but BS to milk more money out of subscribers. CCP can rot in hell - or Iceland, I don't care.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.15 04:07:00 - [195] Originally by: ElCoCo Originally by: Solbright With said decoupling, framerate cannot directly be impacted by lag. So how do you explain what we're experiencing? I have a pretty good idea what's happening. And it has nothing to do with the (by definition) frames per second our PC can generate. The client is having hickups. I presume you mean the typical framerate that Eve produces? Hmm, true and false. Eve, like most if not all games these days, uses a rendering method that produces variable framerate. But generally agreed, the framerate should not be varying hugely like it is so we need to look for good reasons ... Quote: My guess? Node can't handle stuff. But sends/receives data anyway at low rate. Client tries to keep up with the action, but with the low rate data comes and goes, it gets stuck on a catch-up loop and while it's at it, everything is frozen. Something in that logic don't fit. If the client receives some info then why not show it on display? Are you saying there is nothing at all arriving for a minute at a time? Or are you saying that it won't display the new info because it knows the info is out of date? Quote: The little video that was posted here isn't the actual terrible problem we're describing. That's normal network lag since you can move the camera etc as usual, but the system hasn't loaded up. Fraps actualy shuts down (!) when our problem occurs. Agreed. Quote: So in essence, it's not our PC's not being capable of drawing the little squares fast enough. Rhe client is just frozen and the rendering just happens on the first available moment where the client has caught up, even for just a split second, giving the impression of low fps. This might be the key. The client software is doing more than just rendering. We might want to think the renderer is the biggest code path but maybe that's not so, in the case of Eve. Dunno. One thing is for sure, object count and new object arrival are biggies. And if you watch network traffic, say at a POS with plenty to look at, there is very little to no traffic at all and yet FPS really does suck, but not for lack of a good graphics card. Doesn't leave much headroom for times of action. You can see I'm interested in more than just the extremes. Client performance is affecting way more than just the big battles but clearly you lot are suffering the most. Funnily enough, stutter hits when lag goes away. That's the indirect relationship they have. One theory I have is the optimisations for Tranquility are having a real impact now. No lag - massive stutter. Time to get the client codebase optimised too!
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.15 05:43:00 - [196] What's happened is, someone has hacked in some routine that just waits until it receives some type of normally fast update, rather then queuing it and then checking each frame if it's completed. Something is getting done on a frame by frame basis that really shouldn't be, and it's a recent development. I'll bet it's overview related going off my experiences and those of others.
Twoside Gallente Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.15 06:17:00 - [197] Whats also pretty amusing is that when you bring it to CCP, you get different answers. From 'no evidence' to 'you're right!' to 'oh no, there really is no evidence' from one single petition. Pointing them to this thread asking to reply, so perhaps we can understand or even help fixing the problems, is also pointless (unless they post with an alt, claiming it's all our fault secretly, who knows?). In short, we're all imagining things and we really arent dissatisfied ;)
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.15 06:23:00 - [198] Why be so completely silent on this issue? Surely they've noticed this thread by now. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - "We need to invent a new Clue Super Weapon... Something that distributes clue on a never before seen level." -Cpt Psycho
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.15 07:22:00 - [199] Well, just remember guys - these forums are completely public viewable by people not subscribed to EVE. Those people are potential customers to CCP if they're viewing these forums. So, the longer we keep issues like this on the front page of General Discussion, the more of a PR liability they become and CCP addresses them sooner rather then never. And that is why forum whining is more effective then bug reports.
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.04.15 08:04:00 - [200] Originally by: Twoside Whats also pretty amusing is that when you bring it to CCP, you get different answers. From 'no evidence' to 'you're right!' to 'oh no, there really is no evidence' from one single petition. Pointing them to this thread asking to reply, so perhaps we can understand or even help fixing the problems, is also pointless (unless they post with an alt, claiming it's all our fault secretly, who knows?). In short, we're all imagining things and we really arent dissatisfied ;) GM are not Devs, they know how the game play they don't really know how it's work so for most part there guess is about as good as your. I agree with what some people have said, there was a client code that was added in keli that make the client slow down. It could be the seamless map or it could be something else. One of my accounts is having problem with lag almost all the time, even when i docked the manues work slowly. My other accounts work much better and they both run on the same computer with the same network connection it does not metter what account log in first. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.15 10:02:00 - [201] If you want a little more to get worked up over here's the "recommended" spec for a quality gaming experience in Eve: --== snip ==-- Recommended system configuration for running EVE-Online OS: Windows« System 2000 SP2 / XP CPU: Intel Pentium« IV 1.5 GHz or AMD XP 1500+ MHz RAM: 1024 MB HD space: 6.0 GB Video: 128 MB GeForce 6200 class card or higher Network: Broadband Internet connection Drivers: DirectX« 9.0c (included) and latest video drivers --== snip ==-- Dunno about you lot, but I'd dearly love that to be so. Then we could get on with beating the crap out of each other ... :>
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.15 10:50:00 - [202] Originally by: Cadela Fria Oh for christ sake, stop commenting on things you dont know. Essentially all of CCP already are working on fixing the lag... How do you know? If you think you do, how many developers are actively working on fixing the lag? I've followed the game's progress very closely in the past 18 months or so (being a very active player) and I cannot imagine more than 2-3 people working on it since the result is so terribly bad (there's no other way to honestly put it).
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.04.15 10:51:00 - [203] Originally by: James Duar What's happened is, someone has hacked in some routine that just waits until it receives some type of normally fast update, rather then queuing it and then checking each frame if it's completed. This is what I suspect as well. Things have been acting like there's a hardcoded wait state that just shouldn't be there. Makes me wonder if CCP have been doing peer reviews on their code. Another interesting tidbit I found in the Ramdisk thread: Linkage Originally by: Klikiss Check out Process Monitor. It can show you ever single disk access going on, which program is doing it, and what file operations/filenames. With it you can see that even with EvE set to only download icons on stuff you click on, it'll still download portraits for people and cache stuff for the browser when you are just flying along in warp not clicking anything. Sometimes a few per second. No idea why it is downloading those or what causes it. Yay for ramdisks. I think I might just buy a copy of RamDisk Plus to have long-term, it's pretty nice/simple. If Eve is indeed doing things like this unbidden, I could see this causing a lot of lag when warping into a blobbed grid. Has anyone who has experienced these freezes also tried the ramdisk trick and seen an improvement in regards to the freezes? ------------------- Say What?
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.15 10:54:00 - [204] Originally by: Cadela Fria I don't act like I know something, I DO know something, and it's very simple public information posted by CCP themselves. That's called marketing and PR. You have to take it with a grain of salt, only extremely naive people believe stuff like that without a second thought, esp. when it comes from a company that has such bold claims (epic fleet battles blah blah) to defend.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.04.15 10:58:00 - [205] Originally by: Roy Batty68 If Eve is indeed doing things like this unbidden, I could see this causing a lot of lag when warping into a blobbed grid. Has anyone who has experienced these freezes also tried the ramdisk trick and seen an improvement in regards to the freezes? People have claimed various degrees of success with a ramdisk, but it won't fix the issue with downloading stuff at warp-in. I'd like to find out more about why this downloading is happening, does the server initiate it on its own or does the client request it after determining that its local copies are nonexistant or out of date? In the latter case, it might be possible to avoid it by creating a bunch of dummy portraits and setting their time stamps to a time in the future for example.
Sahne MuhMuh	Posted - 2007.04.15 11:24:00 - [206] Who cares about your 20vs20 fleet battles? All the server power is needed to maintain jita, the mission runner hubs und the bob homeregions.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.04.15 12:01:00 - [207] Originally by: Sahne MuhMuh Who cares about your 20vs20 fleet battles? All the server power is needed to maintain jita, the mission runner hubs und the bob homeregions. I read that as "homoregions". --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Viqer Fell Minmatar Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.15 18:07:00 - [208] A lot of my pilots are losing enthusiasm to play, a few are talking about trying removing all their settings such sa the depth buffer as a semi fix. Overall though I don't want to have to play on reduced settings. My pc is high spec enough and my ISP conn good enough to run pretty much anything i can throw at it at the highest settings. Why then do i have to play eve with the most important bits switched off effects = off :( turrets = off :( sun occlusion = off :( I would like to see the matter addressed in this thread by CCP and thus can we continue to keep the comments clean and lets keep the issue raised until something is done by CCP to respond to it. Click here to visit our site
Mister Zero Synergy Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.16 01:54:00 - [209] CCP would have everyone believe that: a; lag is due to network issues between you and EVE servers b; your system is not able to handle the graphics, etc. c; there's a DirectX conflict or that your drivers are bad/old. Truth is, most system are MORE than enough to handle EVE's demands. The issue is purely on CCP's end and their servers/nodes not being able to effectively manage the load. CCP need to stop lying to its customers - 'persistent world' has become 'persistently lagged world'.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.04.16 02:07:00 - [210] we all love lag just live with it.

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