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Nerf that cloak!

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Tempest Kane Amarr Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:32:00 - [31] I can not agree with the OP enough, coverts and recons are not the problem, they do exacly what their supposed to do. But battleships cloaking to avoid combat in 0.0 while isk farming is beyond a joke, it takes all the risk factor out of it. I like the heavy water idea, however i would be just as happy to see the removal of the ability for anything above a cruiser size to fit a cloak, including carriers and titans, logically they should be too big for a cloak generator to successfully cover in any case, and these ship types should have a lable on them when you buy them saying, " if you dont have the balls to fly it, dont bother ". As for the arguments saying if we nerf cloaks people will just cntrl+q when local goes up, isnt their supposed to be agro timers ? probes work. But to be honest, i strongly think the amount of scrambling npc's per spawn should be increased, i just dont think they should scramble unless you engage them. So what im saying is, if you make the choice to engage a set of NPC's you should have to sit their and take the full force of them without the option to run away, its a personal choice you make. This would mean the option to simply run away when local goes up is not their anymore. Win win. While were on the topic CCP, people can still log off in bubbles, people can still cloak and log, and while scrambled in a belt people are still logging off and warping after 40secs-1min, i think you need to take a serious look at how a coward is distinguished from a genuine CTD.
Empero Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:38:00 - [32] Edited by: Empero on 25/05/2007 11:46:02 Edited by: Empero on 25/05/2007 11:43:02 Originally by: Shinigami I wouldn't be against removing local, but your other suggestion does not help the cloaking problem very much. In fact it makes the cloaks completely worthless in pvp. The idea is to limit their ability to live in hostile space, but not to nerf it's use for other activities. Right now you can have cloaking ravens safely ratting 2 jumps from your base. There is absolutely nothing you can do because they are able to safe spot and cloak before you can even activate your warp drive. You dont need to tell me about cloaked ravens on safespots. I see every day more than 20 of them. I really would like to nerf cloaks, but i still prefer to remove the local instead of nerfing modules. My idea about the 300 seconds timer would give you more than enough time to probe him down in 60 seconds while he cant activate the module again. Anyway, i like your idea too ;) @Tempest Kane More scrambling NPC's sounds good to me as long as battleships/cruiser scrambling and not only frig size ships which pop in seconds. --
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:47:00 - [33] Edited by: Damned Force on 25/05/2007 11:46:42 So the prob that the ratting raven can go away and hide? The brave man attacking not pvp fitted ships, i hope at least in a big gang :) What would be the next? Block stargets if u arrive in a system so others cant jump out? or better if u arrive to the system all enemy ships should automatically blow and than some system drones collect for u the loot? U should go to gate, make up a bubble and wait if the enemy warp there. work a bit for your fun and money
Empero Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:53:00 - [34] Originally by: Damned Force Edited by: Damned Force on 25/05/2007 11:46:42 So the prob that the ratting raven can go away and hide? The brave man attacking not pvp fitted ships, i hope at least in a big gang :) What would be the next? Block stargets if u arrive in a system so others cant jump out? or better if u arrive to the system all enemy ships should automatically blow and than some system drones collect for u the loot? U should go to gate, make up a bubble and wait if the enemy warp there. work a bit for your fun and money You have obviously no clue what you are talking about. Thanks for the pass through. Troll somewhere else or post again and think twice about it. --
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 11:55:00 - [35] Originally by: Damned Force Edited by: Damned Force on 25/05/2007 11:46:42 So the prob that the ratting raven can go away and hide? The brave man attacking not pvp fitted ships, i hope at least in a big gang :) What would be the next? Block stargets if u arrive in a system so others cant jump out? or better if u arrive to the system all enemy ships should automatically blow and than some system drones collect for u the loot? U should go to gate, make up a bubble and wait if the enemy warp there. work a bit for your fun and money The dude above pretty much covered it, however I would just like to point you to the OP and it's stated purpose of stopping macro-ratters but allowing others to continue fairly unchanged. Does this mean you are a macro-ratter? sgb
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:03:00 - [36] Edited by: Damned Force on 25/05/2007 12:04:25 I know well what about im writing. The prob is that for pvp u need isk, and because not everyne got t2 BPO's from... so need to rat or mine or do something for profit, from they can buy the pvp fittings. I just not realize what your problem is. if i jump in the system and have luck with a neutral who dont pay attention for local i can easy kill him. if not and he can ru to SS he is alredy gone. U want to nerf cloak because so they can hide. ok Nerf cloak. and what u do if he just log off at the moment as u arrive or have 3 SS and warp between tham. U would cry nerf, max 1 ss/system?. There would always peoples hiding from roaming gangs. and u need live with. leave the system, drop bubbles on other side of the gates and wait. sooner or later he would try to go out. or just go and search for next possible target as everyne do. if they should nerf everything for the peoples crying, than on the end we would play multiplayer pac-man No im not a micro-ratter. never does and never would. i play for fun and not for isk. just have enough for the crying here- nerf theis, nerf thats because this dont work like i want. U should adotp the game rules or dont play. its so easy
Koto Rae Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:17:00 - [37] Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 11:36:58 Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 09:16:58 Almost everyone (except the isk farmers) wants to see some sort of nerf for cloaks. Wrong, you don't speak for everyone, just yourself. These nerf threads drive me crazy. The problem is NOT cloaks, it is ISK farmers. If players would not by ISK, these guys would move on to another game. If you get this nerf, and they adapt and use other tactics, will you ask for those to be nerfed also? The root problem needs to be addressed, not the game mechanics that are fine that are being misused by these scumbucket ISK farmers.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:25:00 - [38] can't think of anything non-insulting to say to the above two posts so reserving this spot till i can... sgb
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:31:00 - [39] Originally by: smallgreenblur can't think of anything non-insulting to say to the above two posts so reserving this spot till i can... sgb Than what about to limit the redocking as nerf, so Triumv could not hide on npc stations if enemy arrives -JOKE-
Koto Rae Absolutely No Return	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:32:00 - [40] And what was it I said that was wrong, sgb? Cloaks work as intended. Some players mis-use them to gain isk to sell. Get rid of the players that mis-use them and leave the module alone. Why nerf things that work instead of fixing the root problem ? The root problem that I see here is ISK farmers, not cloaks.

Damned Force	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:36:00 - [41] Originally by: Koto Rae And what was it I said that was wrong, sgb? Cloaks work as intended. Some players mis-use them to gain isk to sell. Get rid of the players that mis-use them and leave the module alone. Why nerf things that work instead of fixing the root problem ? The root problem that I see here is ISK farmers, not cloaks. Agree just for the posters here never was the prob macro-ratters, just that there are players which can flee.
Shadoo North Eastern Swat	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:37:00 - [42] Edited by: Shadoo on 25/05/2007 12:37:00 Originally by: Damned Force U want to nerf cloak because so they can hide. ok Nerf cloak. and what u do if he just log off at the moment as u arrive or have 3 SS and warp between tham. U would cry nerf, max 1 ss/system?. I edited flamebait and dribel out that has no place in this thread or any other for that matter. Here's how I see it: If you are ratting in a system, see a new local and decide to bail to a safe spot and switch spots / warp to random moons @ 100 every 40 secs -- you're using your brain to avoid combat while accepting risk for doing this. If you fit one module, warp to anywhere and press it while going for lunch/dinner in total immunity -- you're avoiding risk. Same if you CTRL-Q right away. 0.0 ratting SHOULD be risky. You are getting rewarded for accepting this risk. It's what EVE is all about in my view, risk vs reward. There's something wrong with the game mechanics if one module used on a Battleship negates risk by a significant amount without hars penalties. Isn't this why warp core stabs got the bat? Shouldn't the same happen here with cloaking devices? Or do we need BE to go rampant with fitting Cloaking Devices on PVP ships and killing bunch of carebears... oh wait...
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 12:39:00 - [43] Edited by: smallgreenblur on 25/05/2007 12:38:31 There are two problems: 1) cloaks effectively render you invulnerable, as used by heikki extrememly effectively for most of a year. 2) macro ratters use cloaks to become invulnerable to other players while afk playing. This solution fixes both of these problems. The third problem is of course that people will pay real money for isk. If you can come up with a way to stop this then I think ccp will be very happy with you. sgb Edit: Koto was more annoyed at the other idiot than you, your argument is relevant.
Solasta Kovacs Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:02:00 - [44] How about a simple aggro timer for no cov ops cloaks. Ie- whether it was rats or players, you would need to wait, say, 4 minutes before activating a cloak on a non cov ops / recon type ship? Time enough for a good prober to get close, and still allows people travelling without aggressing anyone, or wanting to hide somewhere (for whatever reason) to do so. ---------------------- The Tumaril: "Pies are different"
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Shadoo Edited by: Shadoo on 25/05/2007 12:37:00 Originally by: Damned Force U want to nerf cloak because so they can hide. ok Nerf cloak. and what u do if he just log off at the moment as u arrive or have 3 SS and warp between tham. U would cry nerf, max 1 ss/system?. I edited flamebait and dribel out that has no place in this thread or any other for that matter. Here's how I see it: If you are ratting in a system, see a new local and decide to bail to a safe spot and switch spots / warp to random moons @ 100 every 40 secs -- you're using your brain to avoid combat while accepting risk for doing this. If you fit one module, warp to anywhere and press it while going for lunch/dinner in total immunity -- you're avoiding risk. Same if you CTRL-Q right away. 0.0 ratting SHOULD be risky. You are getting rewarded for accepting this risk. It's what EVE is all about in my view, risk vs reward. There's something wrong with the game mechanics if one module used on a Battleship negates risk by a significant amount without hars penalties. Isn't this why warp core stabs got the bat? Shouldn't the same happen here with cloaking devices? Or do we need BE to go rampant with fitting Cloaking Devices on PVP ships and killing bunch of carebears... oh wait... 0.0 ratting (for solo players) in non-perfect system is hardly REWARDing. It is dull and boring. You do not became a multimega billionare as a 0.0 ratter. Making it even more riskier(e.g no cloaks or logoff) would only make ratting profitable only in 40+ outpost systems. Warping around between SSes Can't see anything wrong with further nerfing cloaks and/or making ratting harder is a good solution, but making it too easy for ganksquads to gank NPCers would probably make 0.0 emptier.
Gozmoth Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Solasta Kovacs How about a simple aggro timer for no cov ops cloaks. Ie- whether it was rats or players, you would need to wait, say, 4 minutes before activating a cloak on a non cov ops / recon type ship? Time enough for a good prober to get close, and still allows people travelling without aggressing anyone, or wanting to hide somewhere (for whatever reason) to do so. Perfect !
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:15:00 - [47] Don't forget that with the new system changes it's going to be much harder to find a ratting ship without probing them out... sgb
Meditril	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:16:00 - [48] I think that cloaking is not overpowered in general, however some aspects are too powerful while other important aspects are totally underpowered. Therefore I like to opt for a balancing as already described here: Proposal for a totally renewed cloaking system
TimMc Phoenix Inc	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:20:00 - [49] Originally by: Gozmoth Originally by: Solasta Kovacs How about a simple aggro timer for no cov ops cloaks. Ie- whether it was rats or players, you would need to wait, say, 4 minutes before activating a cloak on a non cov ops / recon type ship? Time enough for a good prober to get close, and still allows people travelling without aggressing anyone, or wanting to hide somewhere (for whatever reason) to do so. Perfect ! Nah, this would just make escaping lost battles impossible against NPC's and players. Cloaking devices take a high power slot, so you are limiting your firepower a bit for the assurance that you can escape if needed. I think that the cloaks that aren't covert ops should only last, say, 1 minute with a few minute recycle time. Enough time to run to the gate and leave the system, but not get far enough to run out of large corperations space.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:21:00 - [50] Edited by: smallgreenblur on 25/05/2007 13:19:47 Meditril: I prefer the OP's solution to yours by a factor of massive. Sorry :( sgb

Solasta Kovacs Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:45:00 - [51] Can't see how it would making escaping lost battles impossible. If you are locked, you cant cloak anyway- and if you are not, then you can warp and use safespots. A careful pilot can avoid detection from all but the most determined probers by moving from spot to spot if they are organised. At the moment though, its just too easy. Someone comes in system- warp / cloak / wait. ---------------------- The Tumaril: "Pies are different"
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.25 13:57:00 - [52] Edited by: madaluap on 25/05/2007 13:57:02 Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 11:36:58 Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 09:16:58 - This only applies to the prototype and improved cloaks. The specialized Covert Ops Cloaking Device II should not be changed. In other words the Covert Ops, Stealth Bombers, and Recons would stay the same. Did CCP change bombers, so that they can use covert ops cloaking device? Originally by: Tempest Kane While were on the topic CCP, people can still log off in bubbles, people can still cloak and log, and while scrambled in a belt people are still logging off and warping after 40secs-1min, i think you need to take a serious look at how a coward is distinguished from a genuine CTD. QFT _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Genrath	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:18:00 - [53] Give 15 min timer when agressing/getting agressed by rats, and make so probes can scan down cloaked ships if the probe is started in the right range/before the cloak got turned on. Basically, if they got probes you cant cloak, and if you cloak and they got a good precision probe on you (A use for those short/medium/long range probes), youre basically screwed as they will land straight on you. It doesnt make sence that youre chasing down say a raven... and it goes gone, so you tell nothing to your master. The probes should give a location of where the raven was last spotted. We dont need some silly nerf, just that balance is regained, atm cloaked NPCers got it too good. This would make probers better for pvp aswell. If you want to live.... warrrrrrrrrp for it!
One Percent Caldari Applied Eugenics	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:25:00 - [54] People logging off sucks but it's a lot better than it used to be. Cloaks are fine. Local chat is the problem. Give us a local chat that you only appear in when you speak. At the same time, give us a scanner (the one every ship has) that is system-wide and distinguishes between manned and unmanned ships. This would allow a scout or whoever to see how many piloted ships are in the system as soon as they jump in, unless the ships are cloaked (as it should be). Obviously, this would force isk farmers to be more alert and give those who hunt them the option to tackle with a cloaking ship. -
Shinigami Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:25:00 - [55] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 25/05/2007 13:57:02 Did CCP change bombers, so that they can use covert ops cloaking device? Sorry, I thought they could fit them. Never flown one or known anyone that does. I guess there is a reason for that. --- Help reduce lag in eve by supporting the Titans. Screenshots
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:34:00 - [56] Cloaks are the new WCS it appears. Remove people's ability to cloak and ratters will get raped, i know this - since cloaks are what usually saves ratters from me. If you use your brain rather than just 'scan, warp, pop" you might not have a problem. Use your common sense to work out which belt they are at and sit cloaked in it, or the next belt. They will either decloak and come to the belt or log off - in which case they are loosing money, so you have to find some real targets to fight. Failing that wait on the gates on the way out of the system.... but that would involve to much effort for standard gankers eh?
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Shinigami Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 14:21:58 Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 11:36:58 Edited by: Shinigami on 25/05/2007 09:16:58 Almost everyone (except the isk farmers) wants to see some sort of nerf for cloaks. Currently there are ravens (Some people call them Professional Ratters or isk farmers.) in 0.0 space ratting with almost zero risk. When you enter the system they are in a safe spot and cloaked before you can even warp away from the gate. I don't think making it possible to scan cloaked ships is the right solution though. Instead it should be made so that they can't just stay cloaked forever. The idea: - Cloaking devices now require fuel to operate. (I suggest heavy water.) - Activation of the cloaking device uses around 80 - 100 fuel. - After activation the cloak uses 1 fuel per minute. - This only applies to the prototype and improved cloaks. The specialized Covert Ops Cloaking Device II should not be changed. In other words the Covert Ops and Recons would stay the same. This would mean your average battleship might be able to cloak around 8 times before running out of fuel. If he cloaked only once, he could stay cloaked for around 10 hours. Fuel costs could be adjusted for smaller ships, but I think it would be easier to just add small, medium, large, and x-large cloaks to the game. Sometimes they warp to a safespot and log out instead. This tactic also needs to be addressed, but I haven't given much thought to a solution. Perhaps adding an aggression timer for npcs that works similar to the one for players would fix the problem. (Quickly written while trying to probe a raven.) Please get your head out... How can you ask for a nerf for the cloak when you in reality isnt even close to solving the problem? You said it yourself... Quote: Sometimes they warp to a safespot and log out instead. Quote: This tactic also needs to be addressed, but I haven't given much thought to a solution. WTF??
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 14:54:00 - [58] lol, wierd seeing BE complain about something that might reduce the effectiveness of cloaks... Anyway, this solution is still bang on for stopping macro-ratters and not harming anybody else particularly, so it works for me. sgb
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:02:00 - [59] Originally by: smallgreenblur lol, wierd seeing BE complain about something that might reduce the effectiveness of cloaks... Anyway, this solution is still bang on for stopping macro-ratters and not harming anybody else particularly, so it works for me. sgb Wrong, Ctrl+Q. No problem solved. And about hurting someone else. LOL, you know how many cloakers die to us weekly? People have a weird thought that cloaks are "uber" Well they are not. We killed over 60 covert/recon`s this week. Then you can add all the people who fitted cloaks on non spec ships. If you wanna make modules useless, go ahead.
smallgreenblur Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.05.25 15:04:00 - [60] Doesn't look like it will make the module useless. More to the point, I find it unlikely that macro-ratters will use ctrl-q since that kinda defeats the point of being afk... sgb



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