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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.09 11:37:00 -
[91]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The relative strengths of Quests and Encounters means you'll be able to identify every single encounter in the system within three cycles or so. You'll probably find them all in the first cycle, but I don't think that's guaranteed. If you're hunting escalations/complexes, you shouldn't need more than two multispectrals and two sets of probes for any system, unless you're unlucky with respawns.
This is, incidentally, what I meant by "harder to know if there are non-Encounter Unknowns in the system", in that there's no way of telling if one exists without clearing the system first. It won't have any impact on people searching for Radar/Ladar/Gravimetric/Magnetometric sites, or anyone looking for encounters, but it will mean that if you're after combat sites the most efficient modus operandi will be to look for Encounters and then run a multispectral probe after you've cleared a system on the off chance that there's a more valuable site there too. It's not an ideal situation and we will revisit it again in the near future, but equally it's not going to make doing any kind of exploration completely impossible.
Sorry, but unless I am missing something, the procedure you suggest is not functional:
when I clear a system of encounter sites they respawn, so it is almost guarantee that I again have encounter sites in the same system.
Unless there is some serious delay in the respawn time the system will never be totally clear of unknow encounter location. To make it even worse if the number of encounter sites is fixed at a costellation level and not at the system level, people clearing 1 system 2 jump away can be cluttering the one I am in, so new sites will spawn even when I am clearing those currently existing.
Another negative point is the absence of a ship with astrometrics bonus and some decent combat capacity. The t1 frigates can maybe clear an easy encounter while mounting a probe launcher, the Cov ops have almost 0 combat capacity, especially if mounting the almost obligatory cloak.
I think a cruiser/BC sized ship with bonus on the scan probe launcher and maybe the analyzer and codebreaker and the capacity to clear a decent sized encounter site will beuseful.
Currently to clear a encounter site you have two option: a) a friend to clear it while you continue scanning; b) dock, lose all the probes, change ship, return to the encounter site and clear it, re-dock and change againship, deploy new probes.
Option a) is the best one, but I dubt it is so easy to get someone waiting for the results of my scans, and clearing the one I don't find interesting.
I am not suggesting a new player hunting ship, so the bonus should be limited to the slower scan probe launcher, not the recon.
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Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2007.06.09 12:11:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
when I clear a system of encounter sites they respawn, so it is almost guarantee that I again have encounter sites in the same system.
Unless there is some serious delay in the respawn time the system will never be totally clear of unknow encounter location. To make it even worse if the number of encounter sites is fixed at a costellation level and not at the system level, people clearing 1 system 2 jump away can be cluttering the one I am in, so new sites will spawn even when I am clearing those currently existing.
I am expecting, that the number of encounters is fixed on a region-level or even a multiple-region level. It will depend massivly how often encounters will be run. If they are very popular, you might have far more respawns.
Multispectral scans have to be improved for sure as soon as possible. I personally would prefer a count of signatures, which are present in the system. If you know that there are 3 unkown signatures, you can look easily for the encounters first. If you only find 2 encounters, you can start the Quest probes till you find the 3rd signature.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.10 00:53:00 -
[93]
I just scanned down a 10/10 plex on sisi, it was located in a constellation that has a 8/10 on TQ atm.
The ded plexes show up as unknown on the multispec. This makes the almost impossible to find. You basically need to go to every system, clear out all encounters and escalation sites and then see that you still have an unknown that you haven't found. So you keep scan for that one, but it has a very, low signal strength. 0.208 with a sift right on top of it, so we are looking at around 1% chance with a quest.
These sites are going to be found in 2 ways, either by explorers looking for other stuff and happens to be very lucky or someone dedicated to finding one, doing the stuff outlined above spending probably several days worth of work if he does it solo (it took me 3 days to find this one).
If it stays this way I suggest people start investing in deadspace faction gear because with this difficulty in locating the sites the number of complexes that are actually being done is going to drop drastically so supply will also drop and that means higher prices. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Helison
Gallente Times of Ancar THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2007.06.10 07:27:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Hoshi The ded plexes show up as unknown on the multispec. This makes the almost impossible to find. You basically need to go to every system, clear out all encounters and escalation sites and then see that you still have an unknown that you haven't found. So you keep scan for that one, but it has a very, low signal strength. 0.208 with a sift right on top of it, so we are looking at around 1% chance with a quest.
These are quite bad news. Sure, a 10/10 should not be very easy to be found, but with 0.208 (and I expect that you are using a char with pretty good skills) this will be very difficult to be found. We can expect to scan for several hours, just for locating this single location. With encounters etc. it will be even more complicated.
Btw: Were you able to check, if the 10/10 plex was unchanged from TQ?
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sghuhu
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Posted - 2007.06.10 08:20:00 -
[95]
The problem I have with the exploration system as it is now, is the following:
Problem: The time it takes to find a site in an area does only slightly depend on the number of sites in that area.
Two examples: 1. Somewhere in empire with only one radar site in 10 systems left: It takes 5 min/system for the multispec and 1-2 hours once ur multispec had a hit until u actually find the site: 2-3 hours total time spent
2. Somewhere in a seldom visited 0.0 area with one radar per system: It takes 5 mins for the multispec and 1-2 hours to find it: 1-2 hours total time spent
The difference is not very big, which means that the the incentive to move into the areas with lots of sites is low -> the almost empty areas stay empty.
My suggestion would be to give the multispec probes a chance lower than 100% of detecting a site. That way more time would need to be invested per system (like 10-15 minutes), encouraging more people to move to the high site density areas.
Am I making sense?
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.06.10 08:33:00 -
[96]
Originally by: sghuhu The problem I have with the exploration system as it is now, is the following:
Problem: The time it takes to find a site in an area does only slightly depend on the number of sites in that area.
Two examples: 1. Somewhere in empire with only one radar site in 10 systems left: It takes 5 min/system for the multispec and 1-2 hours once ur multispec had a hit until u actually find the site: 2-3 hours total time spent
2. Somewhere in a seldom visited 0.0 area with one radar per system: It takes 5 mins for the multispec and 1-2 hours to find it: 1-2 hours total time spent
The difference is not very big, which means that the the incentive to move into the areas with lots of sites is low -> the almost empty areas stay empty.
My suggestion would be to give the multispec probes a chance lower than 100% of detecting a site. That way more time would need to be invested per system (like 10-15 minutes), encouraging more people to move to the high site density areas.
Am I making sense?
No. Im ALL for making exploration FASTER. Not sitting there and doing 5 multispec runs "just in case".
Taking more time does NOT equal harder. Its more frustrating tho.
It should be risk vs reward balance not risk vs timesink.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.10 09:51:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Helison
These are quite bad news. Sure, a 10/10 should not be very easy to be found, but with 0.208 (and I expect that you are using a char with pretty good skills) this will be very difficult to be found. We can expect to scan for several hours, just for locating this single location. With encounters etc. it will be even more complicated.
Btw: Were you able to check, if the 10/10 plex was unchanged from TQ?
Leve 5 Astrometric Triangulation yes so maxed out for strength, and I have not done a 10/10 guristas on TQ so I can't say for sure but the first room looked like the screenshots I have seen. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Thommy
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Posted - 2007.06.10 16:34:00 -
[98]
I really like the encounters so far.
I ran into an 1.4 mil battlecruiser commander spawn which dropped me an factional medium artillery battery 3 run bpc (got to love factional pos equipment).
Today i ran into another encounter which had only an 0.0062 signal strenght and i found it with just 1 scan (huge luck factor probably?). It needed an tag to enter the 2nd stage which is not an problem with them seeded, could grab one 1 jump away.
First part consisted of 4 battleships and was very nice although graphic heavy (not an problem on my machine but i can see people die in it because thei computer wont coop with it). Second part (also very graphic heavy yet still not a problem even with the accidental triggering of the full spawn minus the final commander spawn) consisted of an 6 or so battleships plus 2 additional spawns totalling arround 14 or so battleships. It was really great and when i shot the final trigger building (yes i know by now to just shoot everything randomly once done, you never know what may happen ). And an 4.8 mil battleship came out of hideing with 4 250+k cruiser and some frigate support.
Really awesome and very great encounter (although i bet i was really lucky finding this one with the 0.0062 signal strenght it had)
Guide to fix eve problems. Cleanup your cache with my cache tool |
Avrunath
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Posted - 2007.06.11 17:21:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Helison As nearly all encounters seem to spam the chatchannels with some nonsense of their commanders: Please restrict the NPC-related messages (during missions, encounters or exploration) to ONE channel (perhaps local). It is very annoying if 9 channels start to blink, just because you warped into an encounter!
/signed
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 02:30:00 -
[100]
poked around 0.9 and 0.8 space the spawning at dt will favour UK and aussie palyers over US players ( perhaps having them despawn and respawn randomly every 2 hours would be more acceptible) is it possible to do that CCP instead of the dt farming encouragement thing
0.9 and 0.8 systems yielded some basic protecting rats are a forward base in gal space ( with a little blue message about someone finding their forward base call for reinforcements)
will poke aorund the map quite a bit more. I think the chances of a commander spawn currently from my obs running at 5-10% seem reasonable enough. Poor loot on 70% of these commander drops and then 30% good ones seem to match 0.0 distributions
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 04:42:00 -
[101]
more additional points to many drones and not enough angel sites in minmatar space around amamake
Low sec remains medium level frig drone rats reasonable, very basic implementation atm loot alloys could be better but good entry level
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:17:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Avrunath
Originally by: Helison As nearly all encounters seem to spam the chatchannels with some nonsense of their commanders: Please restrict the NPC-related messages (during missions, encounters or exploration) to ONE channel (perhaps local). It is very annoying if 9 channels start to blink, just because you warped into an encounter!
/signed
On my to-do list
I'm toying with increasing pirate spawns and decreasing drone spawns in the near future, but that's not an immediate priority. And exploration sites do not spawn/despawn at downtime - it shouldn't have any effect at all.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:19:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Callthetruth poked around 0.9 and 0.8 space the spawning at dt will favour UK and aussie palyers over US players ( perhaps having them despawn and respawn randomly every 2 hours would be more acceptible) is it possible to do that CCP instead of the dt farming encouragement thing
It's been said several times, DT have nothing to do with spawning of any exploration content including encounters. And no spawning and respawning randomly every 2h is not acceptable. It would make looking for escalation site and complexes a virtual nightmare. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:26:00 -
[104]
Grayscale what would be your stance of moving complexes to another signal type? Ladar for example, as there are no ladar sites outside cosmos it's a very underused type. That would make it possible to actually go out looking for complexes. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Alski
Gallente Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.12 11:18:00 -
[105]
Originally by: William Hamilton ^Well, it would be nice if the multispectral probe gave us a signal strength for each site it found.
As for the complexes, I'm guessing they will have similar exploration properties to encounters, seeing as they are similar in the fact that they do not escalate.
Agreed, this is the best stop-gap feature before encounters get there own signature type something thats esp. importent now we have 3 types insted of one: -exploration sites -hidden "static" plexs -encounters
Sureley thats not too biga feature to be stoped by the feature freeze? -
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Callthetruth
Caldari Logical Logtistics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:41:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Callthetruth poked around 0.9 and 0.8 space the spawning at dt will favour UK and aussie palyers over US players ( perhaps having them despawn and respawn randomly every 2 hours would be more acceptible) is it possible to do that CCP instead of the dt farming encouragement thing
It's been said several times, DT have nothing to do with spawning of any exploration content including encounters. And no spawning and respawning randomly every 2h is not acceptable. It would make looking for escalation site and complexes a virtual nightmare.
despawning after they have been finished only, respawning with something new - its aimed more at encounters but exploration content as well , it is acceptible and not a virtual nightmare
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:28:00 -
[107]
The solution I'm playing with in my head right now is changing "Scrap" to "Cosmic Anomalies" or something similar. This would contain all content designed to be found with the onboard scanner (currently just encounters, possibly other stuff in the future that we're not discussing right now). That would mean we can have encounter-level content with different signature types, which won't interfere with exploration-level content.
This will still mean that existing static complexes are mixed in with escalations, but I think that distinction is probably going to become increasingly blurred as time goes on, so trying to demarcate the two will be counter-productive in the long run. It does mean that "going out to find a complex" is going to be difficult, but it also means that people outside the major alliances have more chance of stumbling across one (and probably selling the bookmark on for an outrageous profit in the case of the 10/10s). It changes the current dynamics, but I'm not entirely happy with them anyway so maybe a change is a good thing?
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ShinChan
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Posted - 2007.06.12 13:43:00 -
[108]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The solution I'm playing with in my head right now is changing "Scrap" to "Cosmic Anomalies" or something similar. This would contain all content designed to be found with the onboard scanner (currently just encounters, possibly other stuff in the future that we're not discussing right now). That would mean we can have encounter-level content with different signature types, which won't interfere with exploration-level content.
This will still mean that existing static complexes are mixed in with escalations, but I think that distinction is probably going to become increasingly blurred as time goes on, so trying to demarcate the two will be counter-productive in the long run. It does mean that "going out to find a complex" is going to be difficult, but it also means that people outside the major alliances have more chance of stumbling across one (and probably selling the bookmark on for an outrageous profit in the case of the 10/10s). It changes the current dynamics, but I'm not entirely happy with them anyway so maybe a change is a good thing?
That sounds good. It is certainly a pain to try to find escalation and DED plex right now. Moving encounters to "scrap" and keeping escalation/DED on cosmic signature should be more than enough atm, until you find a final fix.
Also, DED plex signal strenght are lower than cosmos plex signal strenght. The 10/10 DED plex gave me an initial sig str of 0.002, so it's a good idea to separate encounter with escalation/DED signals. Otherwise we will miss (we, explorers) lot of these places. We find encounters on first scan, but a plex with 0.002 sig str takes hours to find, and If we do not clear whole constellation we will never be able to find those sites.
On a side note, I've been scaning a constellation that contained 4/10 and 6/10 on TQ. I have not been able to find 4-6, but found 10/10 instead. Wasn't planned to keep the current system, so a system that contained a 10/10 will contain another 10/10 within the same constellation? You are going to have people going crazy for this change. But may benefit other people since they are going to have a top DED plex where they had a crap plex before. And viceversa.
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:10:00 -
[109]
Ok, this will be going out in a dev blog at some point (hopefully - it's written, but it's being held up somewhere in the editorial process), but we're getting close enough to release that the info needs to get out somewhere, and this is probably the best place.
We were hoping to have special per-constellation distributions for existing complex sites. This will not make it into the initial Revelations 2.0 release. It will probably make it into a fix release soon after. Here's why.
Currently, when a site despawns, it respawns elsewhere in the same distribution. When the distribution covers five regions, this is not considered a problem, as there's several hundred systems it could move to.
When the distribution is a single constellation, there's usually half a dozen possible candidates. With a dedicated team of scanners and combat pilots you can keep the entire constellation clear of other Unknown signatures reasonably easily. This means that if someone finds an Unknown, chances are it's the plex you're after.
If you have ten scanning pilots, then any combination of signature radius and sensor strength that it's remotely possible for a normal player to find within say six hours will be run down very very quickly. Find the complex, complete it and it respawns immediately within the same constellation. Thirty minutes max to relocate it, and you can run it all over again. If it takes thirty minutes to run, that means you can run it on the hour every hour all day long, and with some PvP support you can camp out the constellation so nobody else can run it either. Essentially, it becomes a license to farm - and farm hard - for any well-organized force.
The only sensible solution here is some kind of respawn delay timer on the sites, so we can force them not to reappear for a defined period of time. This tool does not currently exist as this situation was not envisioned when the original distribution tools were written. Unfortunately, by the time this problem surfaced it was too late to get such a fundamental change to the system implemented in time for Revelations 2. Faced with the alternative between making these distributions hideously farmable and just disabling them for now, we opted to disable them.
Most of the hard part of the authoring work is already done - I have a list of all the candidate constellations and associated complexes, and all the distribution groups exist, they're just not populated. We're hoping to have the tools in place to implement these distributions soon after Revelations 2, but obviously I'm not making any promises on dates.
We're aware that this will have an impact on the way large alliances in particular are funded; that said, complexes were originally designed as high-end, challenging PvE content with good rewards, and not as alliance-level revenue generators restricted to approved pilots only and run mechanically day after day. We will monitor what effects this change has and re-assess our plans once we have the capability to resolve this issue - I'm not ruling out anything at this stage, although it's probable that we will do something to ensure that large-scale infrastructure projects based around existing complex sites will end up with some sort of special resource.
Hopefully this post makes it clear that this wasn't a decision we took on a whim, and that the available, realistic alternatives forced this particular outcome.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:49:00 -
[110]
Mixing escalations and complexes I have no problem with, it's the mixing with encounters that's the killer, moving encounters to the scrap groups sounds like a good solution to me.
As for the spawing positions of complexes I was under the impression that a complex would not always spawn in the same constellation, it will only have a higher chance of spawning there. Some sort of weighted chance based (lets say there are 50 candidate constellations spread over 5 regions, out of which 1 had the static complex before. So now the constellation which used to have the static have it's chance weighted to 1/10 chance of spawning the plex instead of 1/50 like the rest).
Personally I am not effected by specific spawning places of plexes as I live in an npc region so if you completely remove the weighting or what ever you are planning and make it completely random it would be fine by me. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
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PenguinJim
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Posted - 2007.06.12 14:55:00 -
[111]
As an explorer who has little interest in unknow (combat) signitures, i'm curious as to the effect of the changes to the ability to scan down the other type of cosmic signiture, in my case i only look for Radar and Magneto.
ATM if i got to a system and drop a mutlispec, i could get a couple of hits one being say Radar and the other say unknown. Now the problem i have atm is that I drop my radar quest probes i will eventaully get two hits and have to scan both down to find the Radar site i want.. Not too much of a problem for me atm as i can cope with two signal and tracking both down.
What concerns me is if i go to a system with thyese changes and i get many unknown hits due to these encounters. Will i have to track down and kill all of the unknown hits before i get to the Radar site i'm after. Seem a tad unfair that i'm forced to do something i have no interest in..
There should be a way of tracking down just what your looking for? and making sure these new encounters you designing for the ship scanner to pick up, are not being picked up by probes, but due to the way it all works i can see my exploration of non-combat sites becoming a thing of the past..
So, the question is how do i as an explorer no just find my non-combat sites? if i'm getting what could be half a dozen or so unknowns being picked up making my search of the radar site a mammoth task that i dont have the time to do.
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:03:00 -
[112]
PenguinJim you will have a slight more clutter in the scan window, that's about it. The encounters have such a huge signal strength there is no way you are going to mistake one for a hacking site. A quest probe of any kind will always get a 0m accuracy result on them. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:15:00 -
[113]
To give you a rough idea, I just went out and dropped a Quest probe around a planet I that knew had a fairly standard-strength Encounter nearby. Range 2.3AU, Signal Strength 11. If you're not after Encounters, just disregard any hit with a strength over say 3 and you'll be fine.
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Thira Rans
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:24:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Hoshi PenguinJim you will have a slight more clutter in the scan window, that's about it. The encounters have such a huge signal strength there is no way you are going to mistake one for a hacking site. A quest probe of any kind will always get a 0m accuracy result on them.
some people need to be taken by the hand... come one, when you explore alot you even instantly know approx. the level of the site from your first scan result with quests. So just by the description from the friendly dev you could figure out that every encounter will have a very high signal strength.
With my skills the highest signal strength i can get with a sift on top of the site is 2.4 (e.g. lvl 1 site) and the lowes is 0.6 (lvl 4 site). So when I get a hit on the quest with signal strength larger than usual i would know this is an ecnounter.....
so basically i don't see any need to discern encounter and exploration stuff as it is already clear by its signal strength!
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PenguinJim
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:44:00 -
[115]
Edited by: PenguinJim on 12/06/2007 15:44:16 I'm sorry if people think my question is stupid, but i have not tested on SiSi these new changes.. Hence my questsion.
As said if by the signal strength I can tell an encounter from a site then fine it should not be too much of a problem. I only explore in 0.0 sites and and dont think i have ever found a site with a signal strength of over one with a Quest probe.
So i suspose dropping quest probes i wait till i find the signiture lesss then one before i start dropping the next level of probes.
Thanks for the clarification GreyScale, I look forward to testing this.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:08:00 -
[116]
Actually using scrap for encounters is a good idea. Possible to get exploration plexes (even w multi) w/o hitting encounters.
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Sadist
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:22:00 -
[117]
Quote: We're aware that this will have an impact on the way large alliances in particular are funded; that said, complexes were originally designed as high-end, challenging PvE content with good rewards, and not as alliance-level revenue generators restricted to approved pilots only and run mechanically day after day.
So pardon my asking, but what's going to replace complexes in terms of profitability and high-end challenging PVE content? Lvl 6 missions to be done with capitals?
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VIP member of the [23]
Quote: - Numbers alone do not win a battle - No, but I bet they help.
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Deva Blackfire
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:38:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Sadist
Quote: We're aware that this will have an impact on the way large alliances in particular are funded; that said, complexes were originally designed as high-end, challenging PvE content with good rewards, and not as alliance-level revenue generators restricted to approved pilots only and run mechanically day after day.
So pardon my asking, but what's going to replace complexes in terms of profitability and high-end challenging PVE content? Lvl 6 missions to be done with capitals?
Um... do you understand that complexes will REMAIN INGAME? They are only MOVED to exploration. It means you need to have someone scan it before you can run it.
Ah one more thing: please make sure plexes despawn properly after being done (ie: overseer killed), so they dont get farmed.
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Toffles
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.12 19:59:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Toffles on 12/06/2007 19:58:32
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
We're aware that this will have an impact on the way large alliances in particular are funded; that said, complexes were originally designed as high-end, challenging PvE content with good rewards, and not as alliance-level revenue generators restricted to approved pilots only and run mechanically day after day.
So you mean like jump bridging titans through trade routes to make 2b a day risk free. Why isn't that being addressed?
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Fabienne Runestar
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.06.12 20:03:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Fabienne Runestar on 12/06/2007 20:03:03 So this is all well and good. Great way to get complexes out of revenue generation mode for large alliances. Too bad some large alliances have been able to use them for years to generate all the income they will want. What about being able to jump bridge freighters, can than be looked at next, and either make it obscenely expensive or not doable at all. As it is right now titans are being used to ferry freighters across empire space for profit and or safer conduct. Is that what was envisioned for titans? ---
Eve has taught me that Evil will always triumph, because Good is mysteriously unable to log in to defend it's assets. |
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