Originally by: Elmo Noguchi

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Originally by: Solo Drakban

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Edited by: Solo Drakban on 30/05/2007 22:07:08
This is the official GoonFleet response. There will be no other response. We thank you for reading.

GoonFleet Response to DevBlog (http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html)

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Originally by: Mik Nostrebor

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Look,

Now I am truly angry. Especially about issue 3. If this was supposed to be a report fro your IA people then sack them. The facts are not well documented (eg no time stamps) and sweeping statements (he has done it before) are made without the slightest evidence being provided.

Q1. Had he ever been warned about his conduct before?
A. You make no claim of that so that answer is NO
Q2. When was this petition made?
A. No dates...it was probably made AFTER THE FACT of that man's dismissal
Q3. What formal processes do you have to deal with these situations?
A. Obviously none. Even with the petition which really is not an issue. Bumping occurs. You do not refute his claim that the 'Jump to person' function he used does not put him extrememly close to the ship thereby causing a bump. Not to mention, a single bump on warp in to a dread is just tough luck. It is grounds for a warning maybe not dismissal. What sort of group sacks staff for this sort of thing? I doubt any court in the US or Iceland would uphold CCP's stance in an unfair dismissal suit (which of course a volunteer does not have access to).

Your conclusions and report in section 3 show clearly the unprofessional and non- ISO 9001 compliant method of operation!

How dare you serve up this absolute sham of a report and expect people to swallow it? Does Whitewolf know this is how you handle your business?

If you decided to manage the issue in a professional and systematic way, EVEN ADMITTING THAT PROCESSES WHERE NOT FOLLOWED OR EXISTING would be better than the insult that this report is.

We are your customers and though we are informal and often poorly educated you are the international corporation. Behave like one and report properly and act in a professional manner.

Kim Robertson.

3.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Originally by: Elmo Noguchi

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Originally by: Solo Drakban

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Edited by: Solo Drakban on 30/05/2007 22:07:08
This is the official GoonFleet response. There will be no other response. We thank you for reading.

GoonFleet Response to DevBlog (http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html)

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I have all kinds of non-constructive but humorous things to say about that reply, but I'll leave it with saying: It's a sad attempt of backtracking, and I disagree entirely with the content of that reply

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Originally by: Mik Nostrebor

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Look,

Now I am truly angry. Especially about issue 3. If this was supposed to be a report fro your IA people then sack them. The facts are not well documented (eg no time stamps) and sweeping statements (he has done it before) are made without the slightest evidence being provided.

Q1. Had he ever been warned about his conduct before?
A. You make no claim of that so that answer is NO
Q2. When was this petition made?
A. No dates...it was probably made AFTER THE FACT of that man's dismissal
Q3. What formal processes do you have to deal with these situations?
A. Obviously none. Even with the petition which really is not an issue. Bumping occurs. You do not refute his claim that the 'Jump to person' function he used does not put him extrememly close to the ship thereby causing a bump. Not to mention, a single bump on warp in to a dread is just tough luck. It is grounds for a warning maybe not dismissal. What sort of group sacks staff for this sort of thing? I doubt any court in the US or Iceland would uphold CCP's stance in an unfair dismissal suit (which of course a volunteer does not have access to).

Your conclusions and report in section 3 show clearly the unprofessional and non- ISO 9001 compliant method of operation!

How dare you serve up this absolute sham of a report and expect people to swallow it? Does Whitewolf know this is how you handle your business?

If you decided to manage the issue in a professional and systematic way, EVEN ADMITTING THAT PROCESSES WHERE NOT FOLLOWED OR EXISTING would be better than the insult that this report is.

We are your customers and though we are informal and often poorly educated you are the international corporation. Behave like one and report properly and act in a professional manner.

Kim Robertson.

3.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Edited by: Ammoina on 30/05/2007 22:52:33

Originally by: Laura Baretta

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The MSN Dilemma:
CCP says it doesnt allow the use of MSN to bypass the Petition System
----> People don't believe it and demand a banning of MSN at CCP/ termination of any contacts between players and developers.
This can never work, it's close to impossible. Yet for some people it would be the only way for CCP to redeem itself.

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People don't believe it because certian BoB members have come out and said 'we don't use petitions, we use MSN.'

If they are lying they should be banned. If they are not lying....

Quote:

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Going on a rampage for the sake of going on a rampage, making an elephant out of a mouse. It's tiresome and totally blown out of proportion, the way you have chosen to bring it to CCPs attention was totally wrong and damaged the company and the game alike. It's disgusting really.

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GF tried petitions, they waited patiently for 3 weeks. They put up a single post on the board (a method recommend by the IA department). That post got axed. Yeah, they went about it all wrong

And no, I'm not a Goonfleet alt. I'm an alt, but my Corp doesn't like people posting about this.

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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The MSN Dilemma:
CCP says it doesnt allow the use of MSN to bypass the Petition System
----> People don't believe it and demand a banning of MSN at CCP/ termination of any contacts between players and developers.
This can never work, it's close to impossible. Yet for some people it would be the only way for CCP to redeem itself.

That is the reason why there never will or can be a solution to this "problem".

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Originally by: ElCholo

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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The MSN Dilemma:
CCP says it doesnt allow the use of MSN to bypass the Petition System
----> People don't believe it and demand a banning of MSN at CCP/ termination of any contacts between players and developers.
This can never work, it's close to impossible. Yet for some people it would be the only way for CCP to redeem itself.

That is the reason why there never will or can be a solution to this "problem".

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While completely stopping any personal contact is indeed impossible - blocking such unauthorized communications from CCP's offices would take a few minutes at a router console.

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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I use MSN also instead of petitions. There, i said it.

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I think discussion about petitions and moderation issues are forbidden on the forum. The Forum patrols acted on it correctly by closing it, not knowing the goons would start a ****storm about it. Forum patrol did its job ---> Goons spammed the forum (also forbidden) Goons were wrong both times. No apologies recieved yet.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Edited by: Ammoina on 30/05/2007 23:04:09

Originally by: Laura Baretta

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I use MSN also instead of petitions. There, i said it.

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You don't happen to be the diplomate of the dominate alliance speaking seriously.

Quote:

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I think discussion about petitions and moderation issues are forbidden on the forum. The Forum patrols acted on it correctly by closing it, not knowing the goons would start a ****storm about it. Forum patrol did its job ---> Goons spammed the forum (also forbidden) Goons were wrong both times. No apologies recieved yet.

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And yet IA says 'please post on forums' about just such issues.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Originally by: Elmo Noguchi

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Originally by: Solo Drakban

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Edited by: Solo Drakban on 30/05/2007 22:07:08
This is the official GoonFleet response. There will be no other response. We thank you for reading.

GoonFleet Response to DevBlog (http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html)

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I have all kinds of non-constructive but humorous things to say about that reply, but I'll leave it with saying: It's a sad attempt of backtracking, and I disagree entirely with the content of that reply

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Maybe you should go read goonfleet's open letter, their reply and the dev blog eh? I'm having trouble finding this backtracking you speak of.

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Originally by: Elmo Noguchi

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Originally by: Solo Drakban

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Edited by: Solo Drakban on 30/05/2007 22:07:08
This is the official GoonFleet response. There will be no other response. We thank you for reading.

GoonFleet Response to DevBlog (http://goonfleet.com/reply_to_CCP.html)

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I have all kinds of non-constructive but humorous things to say about that reply, but I'll leave it with saying: It's a sad attempt of backtracking, and I disagree entirely with the content of that reply

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Maybe you should go read goonfleet's open letter, their reply and the dev blog eh? I'm having trouble finding this backtracking you speak of.

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I did read the open letter and my statement stands - If anything Goonfleet made themselves look even more stupid.
Everything in that entire reply is "Oh well we didn't know EXACTLY what was going, so we automatically assumed that CCP were helping BOB cheat again" and "Oh we just wanted to be heard by posting on the forums, we didn't plan to attack them"

Look you snotnose kids, using your BRAIN! for 2! seconds won't hurt you. Instead of blindly assuming all the time that CCP has ill intents against Goonfleet, how about you work on your MEMORY and PARANOIA, so that this sort of crap doesn't have to hit those of us who aren't involved in your little mudthrowing contest.
Are you really that friggin DENSE that you can't think "A dev joined our corp, hm..probably to fix something" and also remember your own darn internal problems..that's not CCP's job.

Why must you insist on thinking "AMAGAWD CCP R CHETIN WAAAAH!!". Do you REALLY have to join the mob mentality people for your 5 minutes of fame?
Does it make you feel cool? Does it make you feel important?
This is a poor excuse of a retort if there ever was any. "We didn't know" pfft, what a joke Goonfleet.

They wanted to be heard? I've felt the same way many a times, and what do I do? I send a petition, or a mail to CCP, and with a little PATIENCE and good faith - I have ALWAYS recieved an answer.
Just because YOU didn't get an answer within the timeframe YOU wanted, or because YOU couldn't figure out how to use a proper tone when addressing another person, thus getting no answer, well thats just too bad...learn to cope with reality just like the rest of us, you aren't special.

Many of us don't want to be dragged into your crap "Open letter" and anti-CCP attitude campaign - Just because YOU are wearing tinfoil hats the size of the milkyway, doesn't mean we want any of them, or be near them.
You spammed that crap all over the forum, ingame channels etc, and that got many people's day ruined, myself included, cause I was surfing ship fittings at the time it all went down, and thanks to Goonfleet's self-important crybaby moaning, I had that experience ruined.


The MSN thing is unbelievable, CCP stated they are NOT giving ANY favortism to ANYONE - What part about that you didn't understand I don't know. However I assure you that if you can't think as far to reason:

"Well that means that even if you have CCP on MSN, you aren't byspassing the petition system or getting any special favors, cause they said 'not giving ANY favortism to ANYONE', which is pretty universal language that anyone can understand unless you're a complete idiot", then I'm sorry GoonFleet, you're a bunch of *bleep*. (self-censoring ftw!)

THINK FOR YOURSELVES! COMMON SENSE DOESNT HURT NOR LEAVES ANY PERMANENT DAMAGE ON YOUR BRAIN! - ITS GOOD FOR YOU! No really, it is...go ahead, try...don't be scared!

The wholy friggin reply is a joke.

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Originally by: Ezra

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I think that' is what this all boils down to.

What t20 did was a termination offense at any other MMO company. In fact, at other MMO companies, interference with FAR less impact on gameplay is a termination offense.

So, why is t20 still with CCP? Until t20 is gone, or CCP gives an EXTREMELY good reason for keeping him around despite committing what any ethical MMO company considers to be an "immediate termination" offense, the playerbase cannot in any way trust CCP to be an ethical entity.

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Originally by: Rynn Starr

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It seems people on both sides of this argument speak for the whole community.

You speak for yourself so shut your yap hole about this "We" nonsense.

The response from GF was well written, well reasoned and better worded than anything that has ever come out of CCP. And that is MY opinion.

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Originally by: Brigitte Helm

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1) Dev in Game -One post stated "As a programmer, I completely reject the notion that a developer needs to use the software that he creates." I dont know of any programmer that can write in isolation and be sure of the results. Eve is too complex to be safetly developed off line. If programming was predictable, someone would have written a computer program to do it. Instead developing eve is like painting jelly.

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Quote:

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2) Dev MSN - This was not addressed in the post and needs to be clarified, simply to ensure that everyone know why and how it happens and to prevent any possible "advantage" real or imaginary to be understood

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Quote:

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3) The "attack" on the forums and CCP response. Unfortunately I can understand both sides here. If you are ignored you have to do everything you can to seen. Why the original thread was deleted was not commented on and should be. Why was the attack so strong. Only the attackers can answer that. Why has ccp come on so strong. Well their source on income was attacked.

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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You realise that Forum Mods and IA are completely different people right? The MODs saw a post discussing petitions and decided to moderate it. It's their job to enforce orum rules, they don't care about petitions or what not.

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Then they were confronted with the threadnought and again went to work. No conspiracy there. If IA wants to be informed about such things on the forums they should create a special section for it or work closer together with the MOD team. Best would still have been to send a mail directly to Arkanon at [email protected].

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Look you snotnose kids, using your BRAIN! for 2! seconds won't hurt you.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Originally by: Cadela Fria

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Look you snotnose kids, using your BRAIN! for 2! seconds won't hurt you.

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Come back when you can write a post that doesn't contain insults and flaming. You might have made some good points. I don't know. Because I won't read it.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Quote:

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Then they were confronted with the threadnought and again went to work. No conspiracy there. If IA wants to be informed about such things on the forums they should create a special section for it or work closer together with the MOD team. Best would still have been to send a mail directly to Arkanon at [email protected].

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And no, handling this privately would not have been best. It would have likely lead to an even bigger fiasco. If CCP had given the Goons that response in private this board would have been doused in kerosene and light on fire.

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Originally by: Dr Smythe

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CCP kudos on you write up. Kudos on creating a wonderful, enjoyable game. Kudos on being as fair as humanly possible.

To the eve community that keep asking questions, that keep harping on at CCP, that keep affiliating BoB with CCP.

You make me sick.......... and are ruining the game for people like me.
I joined eve with my own personal ambitions. I play the game because of the friends I have made, because of the challenges eve presents in an online world.
I "PLAY" because I like "GAMES"

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I am a member of BoB and I have never had any contact with ISD CCP XYZ. Yet you paint me with the same brush.............
I was once a member of ASCN and painted BoB myself with that same brush. I apologize openly for that.
In an online world it's the closest thing to racism, sexism I have encountered.

Because of you I will NEVER leave BoB of my own free will..... Because of you neither will thousands others.
Because of you we enjoy so much taking your space and shoving it where the sun don't shine.

Dr Smythe - VERY proud member of DICE-BOB and very proud player of EVE
Pity some of the community is so crap though

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Originally by: Dr Smythe

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To the eve community that keep asking questions, that keep harping on at CCP, that keep affiliating BoB with CCP.

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Originally by: Richard Johannson

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As most of the posts were simple links back to the open letter we would have in fact be attempting to DoS ourselves with traffic. LOL

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Then they were confronted with the threadnought and again went to work. No conspiracy there. If IA wants to be informed about such things on the forums they should create a special section for it or work closer together with the MOD team. Best would still have been to send a mail directly to Arkanon at [email protected].

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And no, handling this privately would not have been best. It would have likely lead to an even bigger fiasco. If CCP had given the Goons that response in private this board would have been doused in kerosene and light on fire.

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Explain please.

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Originally by: Laura Baretta

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Originally by: Ammoina

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Quote:

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Then they were confronted with the threadnought and again went to work. No conspiracy there. If IA wants to be informed about such things on the forums they should create a special section for it or work closer together with the MOD team. Best would still have been to send a mail directly to Arkanon at [email protected].

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And no, handling this privately would not have been best. It would have likely lead to an even bigger fiasco. If CCP had given the Goons that response in private this board would have been doused in kerosene and light on fire.

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Explain please.

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CCP has answered barely half of the questions, has ignored many major points and is brushing it under the rug. If Goonswarm had been given that devblog as a reply rather than posting that open letter they would have slapped up a point by point dissection of CCP's reply and we'd maybe be getting real answers. But then that would probably have been deleted as well because 'its talking about moderation.' Funny that.

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Originally by: Sentinel Eeex

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Originally by: Dr Smythe

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To the eve community that keep asking questions, that keep harping on at CCP, that keep affiliating BoB with CCP.

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Yep. Right. Questions. How dare people ask questions? Yep. Don't ask. CONCORD kills a kitten every time we ask questions. Yep. Pay and don't ask questions. Aha. Don't question anything in life either. Yep. No questions asked. Good.

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