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Story in the New York Times.

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Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:42:00 - [181] Originally by: Quincy TawHarr Originally by: Herculite Personally I think its a silly idea, but its not my company. Plus after helping run a hardcore PvP oriented mud for a number of years and having to 'bust' a lot of cheaters in the process I can't how this would really stop any single employee from cheating if they wanted to. Those sorts of actions can only be detected by those who know the system, know the people, know the commands, and have an almost innate feel for how a game works. Basically you need to know how to cheat the system to bust people cheating the system. The point isn't to bust cheaters, which you are correct in saying a few people once every little while can't do. The point is to drop in every now and then and verify the fact that CCP isn't painted in any corps "colours" so to speak. There is no reason why this shouldn't be possible, so long as our "representatives" take the task seriously. An obvious issue that has no doubt been raised is the potential for alliances to stack the team with their people. This will give a few people a large amount of influence and care must be taken to ensure that the "task force" doesn't become another platform in the war of accusations. The point is to monitor and cure trends that are harmful to the critical element of trust and provide a new foundation for reaffirming that trust, and where necessary make sure that changes are made to prevent hickups. That is in a nutshell what an audit is for. It's more important here because of the perception factor, and because there is a CCP element involved of commercial ventures, remember that when there is no trust, economy goes down the drain. It is the livelyhood of some, it is the entertainment of others, it is a big part of of heart and soul of a lot. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Barwinius Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:46:00 - [182] Very nice CCP, very nice.
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:51:00 - [183] Edited by: Fornacis on 07/06/2007 14:51:34 Alright, well I'm half as intelligent as Baun, but I'm going to post my feelings on this matter. I think the big thing here is Trust. In any healthy relationship you need trust. This relationship being "I" the customer paying "You" the Company to provide a service. This service can be many things to different people, but for me its a game with a level playing field, and game free of cheats. I've played a lot of Multi player games, and the thing that impressed me in the beginning of Eve (almost three years ago) is that I had a feeling that my subscription dollars was going to improvement in the game with new content(no complaints here), and keeping my gaming experience free of cheats (macros, exploiters, etc.) I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about running a game company, but I do work in a software company, and in TechSupport/Customer Service for years. From my experience if you keep your employees/Customers/anyone in the dark about something human nature will tend to have conclusions drawn, and these conclusions will 90% of the time tend to be dark ones. Pessimistic ones...things that will eat at the very core of something like a cancer. I'm not posting this to bring up any allegations, because frankly I'm done with it, and if any of the entities that are being blamed really give a damn about this game/life called "EvE-Online" then I really hope they stop. (if said allegations could be true) Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going.
Karl Bohm	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:53:00 - [184] In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit I am posting in my alt's ID -- I've some 3 decades of experience regarding independent oversight. I'm a USA Federal Government enforcement lawyer. I spend my days at Agency HQ advising policymakers, top political management, and career operational chiefs on how to provide independent regulatory oversight of the US Dept of Defense. Sort of like a flea on the backside of a really big elephant, is how I like to describe the relative balance of power in all that. Yet, it is my experience that an independent regulatory overseer comprised both of technical and legal experts can effectively alter the behavior and ensure continued legal compliance of that elephant. And we do it in the face of some of the most determined, high level, politically connected, well-financed campaigns to flout the rules by some in the Pentagon. We've beaten them by knowing what questions matter, what to look for, how to reveal what we find, which parties outside and also inside the Pentagon to enlist to aid us, and, finally, by allowing those in the regulated community who would do the wrong thing fall down of their own weight -- they always go too far. As a law enforcement guy, I think I know how you audit for compliance in any given field, for the principles of how you provide oversight don't depend entirely on what kind of law you are trying to enforce. You need technical people to fill in the blanks -- and they, in turn, need guidance from us legal eagles on how to make their technical information and their technical judgments count. I look forward to CCP's efforts in this regard and applaud the spirit they display - for without it they risk surrendering to the disease that afflicts every online gaming community I've ever seen: all gamer communities I've played with over the years on the internet eventually succumb to a form of self-destruction stemming from the conviction by groups of players that other groups are not only cheating, but doing so with help from the sysops or software companies who created or own the game. We addressed it long ago within one small online community playing the old Freelancer game by establishing a court and holding trials - using advocates and evidence. Worked ok, but essentially took too much time -- it was, after all, only a game. The distrust thing happens, I think, because some players forget it is just a game, and winning becomes inappropriately important to them. That's also what makes folks cheat, forgetting that by doing so you deprive yourself of everything that makes the game worth playing in the first place. But even in the absence of cheating, when some find themselves getting the short end, for whatever reason, the cry goes up that they are being taken advantage of by insiders. Sometimes that is true, to be sure. More often, it is not. That said, I think CCP's Hilmar Petursson is smart to say ôA government canÆt just keep saying, æWe are not corrupt.Æ No one will believe them. Instead you have to create transparency and robust institutions and oversight in order to maintain the confidence of the population.ö I've made a career of some 35 years on that proposition in order to achieve and ensure public health and safety -- if CCP does it right, they will regain and maintain the confidence of players. I know I've done pretty well towards that end in my own work.
Hail Xenu	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:53:00 - [185] Irony of this whole thing is that it probably made eve more subscribers than it lost, getting in the NYT has got to be some decent media exposure. If someone says "all PR is..." then I'll ******* kill them.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:59:00 - [186] Sounds good to me CCP...lets get it done. Should not be a member of or allied to BOB, Goonswarm, Or any alliance currently fighting one of the above. Should not be a forum *****...DS, Chib, myself, or anyother one here that has more then 100 post. Should be sombody from minor alliances, corporations, and NPC corps. Should be a mixture of PvP, Pve, players And most of all, sombody that can be trusted... ROSHAN LONGSHOT 03-06-2003 18-06-2007. CCP THIS HAS BEEN A GOOD FOUR YEARS. YOU DONE WELL. BUT ATLAST ALL THINGS MUST COME TO AN END, AND FOR ME ITS TIME TO LEAVE EVE. CLEAR SKIES AND SMOOTH JETS
4rc4ng3L Gallente C R Y O FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:03:00 - [187] Sounds interesting indeed. However, im more inclined to believe this is a publicity stunt to regain faith with the playerbase, and although it is a good idea which i think has potential, i'm worried as to the exact amount of access these people will be given by ccp. I really doubt that they will be shown everything and most likely be only taken on a guided tour, being shown what ccp want them to see. If that happens then the whole idea becomes very half assed and brought to light as a complete publicity stunt, which in my opinion has the possibility of doing alot more damage. 4rc Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:04:00 - [188] My vote for sale, 1 billion isk starting bid ! Hum... Joking apart, nice idea from CCP, even if it's really unnecessary for me. Well, I can't blame them from making themselves even more transparent.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:07:00 - [189] Originally by: Alias11 Our advertising department will be sending you a bill. Ha! I was just thinking "Wow...Goons have a plant at the NYT." Now BoB needs to get someone into the Washington Post. Won't a committee elected by popular vote be dominated by the largest alliance(s)? "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:11:00 - [190] So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:12:00 - [191] Originally by: Fornacis Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going. The danger is that unless this is done properly this program will brush the dirt off CCP's clothing without forcing them to take a shower; everyone will think that everything is OK when, in reality, CCP has either buddied up to the auditors, not given them the information they need to do their job, let corrupt auditors further ruin the game, or (and this is most likely) not given the community sufficient information about what is going on that we can actually trust that this program does anything whatsoever. The Enemy's Gate is Down
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:12:00 - [192] Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets i hereby suggest their passive and active rights to vote and be voted for are suspended. Why? Because when a company is audited people who do audit it are not friends with employees as, was it Blacklight?, who put it so eloquently members of BOB are friends of CCP employees and vice versa. Besides BOB and their pets are going non stop about how EVE is not rigged in favor of anyone and would make the worst kind of auditors because why would anyone want to audit a company that he is convinced has done nothing wrong. Auditors in their nature are suspicious of everything. Being suspicious and alert is hard to do if you "simply KNOW" all is in perfect order without even needing to take a look at it. T paint a preety picture for those that have hard time reading ;) Take the people who think something is wrong and persuade them. No point persuading George W. Bush to cast a vote for the Republicans on the upcoming elections. He'll do it. Persuade Hillary Clinton to vote for the Republican candidate. Now that's a mighty feat. If you can accomplish that you've won. I sure hope you will try to swing the voices of those that say something is wrong. That can be accomplished by letting in only those that think you are tipping the scales into BOB's favor. We all know who those are. Also characters less than 14 days old at present day should also not be allowed to vote. Why? To prevent an army of alts voting for the "right people" whoever they may be. What do you think? Flame away ;) Oh, The sig is about a pilot named Dukath flying a Vindicator I soloed one day. Pic went missing with the old forums... Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Laah T'Sin	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [193] Edited by: Laah T''Sin on 07/06/2007 15:14:15 The first thing that comes to mind after reading the article is: CCP 4tw! The idea with electing players is simply great! It shows that CCP really care about what "we" (or some of us at least) think and it shows that they are willing to go to extreme lenghts to make their customers happy. I think things like these will really build trust in CCP... simply wonderful guys! Thx CCP! BTW. The article in the NYT really really makes eve sound like a kick-ass game... i especially like the world of warcraft bashing hehe
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [194]
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [195] Originally by: gfldex So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. 3 from the Worker Caste 3 from the Warrior Caste 3 from the Religious Caste In Valen's Name! Building the homestead
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:18:00 - [196] Originally by: gfldex So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. LOL. You nailed it! Congatulations :D Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Yankee Uprising	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:20:00 - [197] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Yankee Uprising /me puts on spectacles of reading between lines... Color me skeptical, but this practically screams "We lost a lot of subscriptions" to me. Enough to validate some plane tickets and hotel rooms. Oh yes, and great quantities of Iceland's economy fuel - beer. Oversite firms typically take months at least to come to their results concerning medium-sized companies. Are we to beleive that nine players, chosen by popularity vote, are going to have the time, let alone ability, to draw any decent conclusions? And how would they know where to look for shenanigans? Because CCP will point at a monitor and say "right there in that code... see? Nothing wrong there! Wanna beer?" Or maybe these folks are supposed to audit all the transactions taking place. How many happen in a day? This is a political move aimed at keeping the money rolling in - make no mistake. Rather than coming clean by being honest with a ****ed off player base, CCP has taken a brilliant step by using the players themelves as part of their smokescreen. how much more open do you want them to be? I don't want them to be open - I want them to be professionals. I want them to solve problems rather than try to blow smoke up our collective butt.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:20:00 - [198] Do we get a Ring?
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:25:00 - [199] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Fornacis Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going. The danger is that unless this is done properly this program will brush the dirt off CCP's clothing without forcing them to take a shower; everyone will think that everything is OK when, in reality, CCP has either buddied up to the auditors, not given them the information they need to do their job, let corrupt auditors further ruin the game, or (and this is most likely) not given the community sufficient information about what is going on that we can actually trust that this program does anything whatsoever. Point of an audit is to give that cold shower. Auditors, as much as folks may try to snuggle up to them, they end up always being severely disliked, and often mistrusted by the people who are the subject of the audit. At least during the process. Why? Because it's suddenly turning the stick around. Buddying up with auditors, it's possible, but that is why the choice of people and the methods used will be so important. Frankly, I will be surprised if that will be easy. It is possible, but it will not be easy. Keep in mind there is severe distrust, and broken perceptions, but also keep in mind that CCP will have a deep audit. Never easy for any company while work goes on. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [200] Edited by: Herculite on 07/06/2007 15:26:10 Prediction: Expect to see long, pandering posts, from want to be candidates in the very near future. Its bad enough getting that tripe from RL. Edit: Hehe looking at this thread I can see a few people already trying.
Mekarae Amarr House Mekarae	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [201] So CCP decided to create some old republican tribunes of the plebs. Off the top of my head CCP need to think about the following, 1. Elected representatives must have a fixed term. 2. No representative may hold consecutive terms. 3. No alliance may have more than 1 represenative at any given time. 4. A certain number of seats held for various interest groups (for example an RP seat to 'oversea' events and RP related material). 4a. An individual must be active in said interest group to hold a particular group seat. Otherwise you'll end up with 1-2 alliances dominating the council. This could work out really well or really REALLY badly. -------------------------- "...strength through aristocratic rule."
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [202] The pool of canidates will be biased from the start. You will end up with only people who frequent the forums. Now this may be good but will not get a good cross-section of the playerbase. I predict that the entire pool (or at least 80%) will consist of 0.0 aliance players. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:27:00 - [203] I have to go make an alt named NoneOfThe Above for the purposes of the election. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:31:00 - [204] i vote for Miz and/or Romeo
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:33:00 - [205] I eagerly await details on this move. It could / will go a long way towards settling this mess once and for all. Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:40:00 - [206] Originally by: Kraven Kor Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this. Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth. The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:52:00 - [207] When can we expect more information? I believe that there should be no more than one representative from any given alliance or corporation including both past and present employment history. I believe also that the representation should be kept even on PVP vs PVE basis as well as alliance play vs corporation play as well as Player Corps vs NPC corps. The oversight committee would need folks from each walk of life in the game in order for it to have a more complete understanding of what is going on. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:55:00 - [208] This will fall on it's face. I can see it now... "How many of the oversight comittee is in bob?!?" "Goonswarm rigged the election with thousands and thousands and thousands of votes!!!!" and so on and so on...
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:59:00 - [209] awesome ---------------------- sig out of order, returning soon FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:01:00 - [210] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Kraven Kor Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this. Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth. The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so. It is the person's perception that they see as reality... thus perception is reality... no, it has no bearing on the truth, but that is besides the point... You are with BoB, and would like to be considered an "Honorable" player, so you play the game as you do, you never lie, cheat or steal, you play as honorably as you can... yet because your name has a "Band of Brothers" alliance tag, you get painted as a "Cheater" because of what has happened in the last year... Truth is you are honorable, perception is you are a cheater... but to that person looking at you as they race away in their pod, you are bob, you cheated... that is their "reality" because they perceive it to be so... Granted, I don't know you, so if you are not an honorable player, please don't tell me, I want to at least think you are... part of my reality. None of us is as dumb as all of us...

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