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Ductoris Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:16:00 - [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Some real big info in there. I'm sure you'll be hearing more about it in the future but until then I thought I'd make a thread to consolidate the comments. forum rules \| Email us

Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:21:00 - [2] a-m-a-z-i-n-g!!!! i love the new york Times and i love EVE so i'm happy now. will it come in print tho?
Badhands Gallente Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:24:00 - [3] Edited by: Badhands on 07/06/2007 06:22:56 Although I do not trust CCP anymore, and, being a member of Darkstar1 when it happened, I know that there was NOT a problem with the POS in the Sharkbait incident, I believe that this is most definitely a step in the right direction, and a fantabulous idea. Oh yeah, one more thing... First! Edit - Aww... second. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statement on dev misconduct: for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine
RaTTuS BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:25:00 - [4] Umm, I nominate myself for free travel to iceland -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & Blog
Johnnie Nano Open Season	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:25:00 - [5] You beat me to it! Amazing that Eve would get such coverage in NYTimes!
Lavinrac Krad	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:29:00 - [6] Wow! I am quite amazed and impressed actually.
Yurii Chan	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Johnnie Nano You beat me to it! Amazing that Eve would get such coverage in NYTimes! yea i know! NYT is #1 American paper imo. looks like i'll be up till daylight to snatch the paper right when they deliver it!!! /me mumbles to self 'or i could set my alarm clock' but yea, i like the idea of a committee of elected uh officials (are they officials?) sent to sniff out CCP HQ for WMDs... oh wait...
Yakoff Star Scream Inc. Ultima Rati0	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:32:00 - [8] Edited by: Yakoff on 07/06/2007 06:32:15 So, will there be some basic prerequisites/requirements that nominees must meet? Can I be psychotic and still get on the nominee list, or does one of my multiple personalities have to be somewhat normal?
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:33:00 - [9] Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 07/06/2007 06:32:17 Originally by: Ductoris http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Some real big info in there. I'm sure you'll be hearing more about it in the future but until then I thought I'd make a thread to consolidate the comments. Honestly, I have always trusted CCP. I wish I could be nominated, but I am too much of a fanboi to be trusted Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Hippo117 Caldari Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:34:00 - [10] Interesting. -------------- Obligulatory 'opinion does not nescessarily represent those of my corp/alliance' stuff here.
illusha Ichiro Edgar Martinez	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:37:00 - [11] Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again!
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:38:00 - [12] Originally by: Johnnie Nano Amazing that Eve would get such coverage in NYTimes! Nice things about the player oversight committee -- I predict endless bickering on the forums that will totally distract everyone. What to do to keep restless citizens quiet? A committee! Iceland is a little too far from GMT+8
Mr Adequate Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:42:00 - [13] Originally by: illusha Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! I am sure that I can apply for some time off -- one of the benefits of being self employed. If I can, then I am sure that within those 200,000 non-macro players there must be plenty. Ok, we found the first required qualification for an EVE independent monitor: (1) Need plenty of free time Feel free to add ...
illusha Ichiro Edgar Martinez	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:44:00 - [14] 2. Need to have at least a college education, preferably graduated with a business administration degree.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:45:00 - [15] Interesting idea. Hilmar is certainly right when he says that reality is partly that what we percieve/believe.
Rslorien Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:46:00 - [16] Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! CCP is trying to get (even more) the player involved with the company and your first thing to think is how to explain your boss you need to be out for a couple of days ?? btw does your boss know you play EVE?? beter keep it a secret maybe he's a DEV and if he get mad you may get nerfed ships only for you or maybe you'll get fired because of what you do with your personal time. P.S- aplly to be a goon you have the pre-required intelect and point of view they want
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:46:00 - [17] If you don't have a New York Times account, and don't feel like registering one, use this.
Alice Cholmondeley Christine.	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:48:00 - [18] Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCP’s operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! You sir, are seriously backward. Try thinking outside of your own boundries for once, you do not have all the wisdom you think you have.
Alice Cholmondeley Christine.	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:49:00 - [19] Edited by: Alice Cholmondeley on 07/06/2007 06:48:47 Originally by: Nullity If you don't have a New York Times account, and don't feel like registering one, use this. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html is the normal link, without the login screen.
Illyria Ambri Caldari RennTech	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:54:00 - [20] Not just business admin skills.. would need to be a well rounded choice including programmers and professional bug hunters as thats the part that people will really want to hear about.. ------------ This is not War... This is pest control - Dalek Sek
Ionia Advanced Manufacturing	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:55:00 - [21] Wow, this is a truly amazing step for CCP. Obviously this shows how much they value their reputation and respect the playerbase. They are willing to go above and beyond what any business would accept as reasonable in a situation like this. I am totally blown away.
Nullity Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:55:00 - [22] Originally by: Alice Cholmondeley Edited by: Alice Cholmondeley on 07/06/2007 06:48:47 Originally by: Nullity If you don't have a New York Times account, and don't feel like registering one, use this. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html is the normal link, without the login screen. Thank you. I find those log in screens incredibly annoying.
Helox Gallente Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:56:00 - [23] Edited by: Helox on 07/06/2007 06:54:52 You certainly need a system administrator! Yes. I do mean myself. -- the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:57:00 - [24] This is incredible, as well as unexpected. Props to CCP for making such a bold move.
Vorenus16	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:59:00 - [25] Quote: P.S- aplly to be a goon you have the pre-required intelect and point of view they want I don't think you should be giving advice about INTELLECT if you can't even spell it correctly. Let me do you a favor and fix your sentence so you can seem like you have a little bit of INTELLECT. P.S- apply to be a goon, you have the pre-required intellect and point of view they want. Ah yes, much better now. I think BoB needs to have a intellect requirement so they don't recruit ******s like you.
illusha Ichiro Edgar Martinez	Posted - 2007.06.07 06:59:00 - [26] I meant to post with my main, Vorenus is my alt.
Awarrior	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:04:00 - [27] now thank you to all forum warriors that EVE is more popular than ever. Now, all the forum warriors get ready and stage another revolt how EVE is so laggy b/c we have alot more players
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:12:00 - [28] Edited by: Kuolematon on 07/06/2007 07:11:03 I will nominate me to travel there because I'm beta2 veteran and CCP owns me IRL cash "to be honest it makes me wonder about the mental state of a person who would join a corp called Space Perverts and Forum warriors"
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:19:00 - [29] Edited by: Tobias Sjodin on 07/06/2007 07:20:48 I liked this quote: Quote: ôA government canÆt just keep saying, æWe are not corrupt.Æ No one will believe them. Instead you have to create transparency and robust institutions and oversight in order to maintain the confidence of the population.ö What if we replaced government with CCP? I very much liked the ombudsmen idea. - Recruitment open again-
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Alice Cholmondeley You sir, are seriously backward. you do not have all the wisdom you think you have. much like your posting
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:21:00 - [31] Good initiative. Also, lol at the predictable replies from parts of the community. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:23:00 - [32] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 07/06/2007 07:22:41 Hmpf. All you wannab people wanting to fly to iceland and go play "gamedev"....don't you have better things to do? Like play EVE?! Bah i say. Hereticts. On the note of "who" should go there, there should be no favoring, raffle of sorts i'd say, total random picking from the playerbase or elected members from the corporations(heh, imagine that internal war...). I could easily bump myself to the top of the list without any masters degrees and such, but i'm not gonna, 'cause that's not what this game is about. So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Alias11 Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:24:00 - [33] Our advertising department will be sending you a bill.
Chronus26 Gallente Team Laser Explosion Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:25:00 - [34] Wow, inetesting way to go about things... -----
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:26:00 - [35] some goon has good connections! ->My Vids<-
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:28:00 - [36] Very interesting, but we need to be careful this doesn't devolve into a popularity contest or we're going to screw ourselves over. The biggest asset I can think of is an ability to understand the transactions that go on in the database, and the ability to screen the tickets GMs and devs use (if I understand the system right). Accounting's great and all, but finances aren't really of concern. So, maybe players with a customer service background, database admins, people like this?
Lord Seth Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Very interesting, but we need to be careful this doesn't devolve into a popularity contest or we're going to screw ourselves over. The biggest asset I can think of is an ability to understand the transactions that go on in the database, and the ability to screen the tickets GMs and devs use (if I understand the system right). Accounting's great and all, but finances aren't really of concern. So, maybe players with a customer service background, database admins, people like this? Indeed ^^ last thing CCP need is GOONIES screaming the elections were rigged or wanting a re-count. I think having 1 member from each of the largest 9 alliances to be the ones that get to go.Its fair and balanced and no shouts of election rigging will be made. 1 member from each of the 9 largest player based alliances
Gabba The Three Hundred	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:37:00 - [38] CCP should just dicipline the people that benefitted from it. They stole the cake and still got to eat it too. This isnt just a matter how people perceive EVE, its a matter of who has the advantage ingame now, and how they got it. This wrong has never been righted, and looks like it never will.
Vladimir Ilych Gradient	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:47:00 - [39] Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 07/06/2007 06:32:17 Honestly, I have always trusted CCP. I wish I could be nominated, but I am too much of a fanboi to be trusted Same here. I think CCP learnt their lesson over the T20 incident but as stated in the interview it is the perception of reality that matters and the perception of CCP in some quaters is very bad atm.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:51:00 - [40] Very smart move. Good to see that CCP realized that trust was lost and they need extraordinary measures to get it back. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Erik Amirault Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:54:00 - [41] I believe that as a 40-year-old manager for a heating and cooling company in Sweden that I have the experience for this new and exciting position.
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:55:00 - [42] "Democracy", "auditing by players", "elections" what a piece of crap Don't we have enough of such lip-sercice sh*t in RL? Do you realy think that picking the worst form (aka "democratic elections") of forming of control committee would cool down people? -- ignorance is bliss
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.07 07:59:00 - [43] Originally by: La Tortura "Democracy", "auditing by players", "elections" what a piece of crap Don't we have enough of such lip-sercice sh*t in RL? Do you realy think that picking the worst form (aka "democratic elections") of forming of control committee would cool down people? what if 2 of them are goonies?
Yankee Uprising	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:01:00 - [44] /me puts on spectacles of reading between lines... Color me skeptical, but this practically screams "We lost a lot of subscriptions" to me. Enough to validate some plane tickets and hotel rooms. Oh yes, and great quantities of Iceland's economy fuel - beer. Oversite firms typically take months at least to come to their results concerning medium-sized companies. Are we to beleive that nine players, chosen by popularity vote, are going to have the time, let alone ability, to draw any decent conclusions? And how would they know where to look for shenanigans? Because CCP will point at a monitor and say "right there in that code... see? Nothing wrong there! Wanna beer?" Or maybe these folks are supposed to audit all the transactions taking place. How many happen in a day? This is a political move aimed at keeping the money rolling in - make no mistake. Rather than coming clean by being honest with a ****ed off player base, CCP has taken a brilliant step by using the players themelves as part of their smokescreen.
Gealbhan Caldari The SAS The Kano Organisation	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:04:00 - [45] Wonders if anyone from Ireland will be on the thing Iceland is so close you could paddle a kayak to it, hehe. "Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium.
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:06:00 - [46] CCP, just remember this. "... You'll be damned if you do, and damned if you don't." Eleanor Roosevelt ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile. "It was empty!!"
Mirri Kazaki Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:08:00 - [47] A really mature and civilized way to keep the game going. Don't choose me for the audit though i would probably steal a horse and get lost in the country side. /Mirri
MotherMoon	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Yankee Uprising /me puts on spectacles of reading between lines... Color me skeptical, but this practically screams "We lost a lot of subscriptions" to me. Enough to validate some plane tickets and hotel rooms. Oh yes, and great quantities of Iceland's economy fuel - beer. Oversite firms typically take months at least to come to their results concerning medium-sized companies. Are we to beleive that nine players, chosen by popularity vote, are going to have the time, let alone ability, to draw any decent conclusions? And how would they know where to look for shenanigans? Because CCP will point at a monitor and say "right there in that code... see? Nothing wrong there! Wanna beer?" Or maybe these folks are supposed to audit all the transactions taking place. How many happen in a day? This is a political move aimed at keeping the money rolling in - make no mistake. Rather than coming clean by being honest with a ****ed off player base, CCP has taken a brilliant step by using the players themelves as part of their smokescreen. how much more open do you want them to be?
Babbette	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:12:00 - [49] Why is the NY Times and apparently BoB getting this information before regular paying customers like myself? I don't think this will really work. Eve prides itself on having the most cutthroat and back-stabbing players in any MMO. Is anyone really gonna trust 8-9 people you don't personally know to do anything in eve? How do we know the committee's trips to Iceland won't give them exactly the kind of insider access many in the community worried about with the MSN thing? If the committee becomes corrupt then what are we going to do?
Kalahari Wayrest	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:12:00 - [50] checks date Well it's not April 1st Hope you know what you're doing CCP __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:13:00 - [51] Originally by: MotherMoon what if 2 of them are goonies? Will they be goonies, bods or macro isk farmers who caress? Controlling functions should be prerogative of those who deserved it by their deeds, who demonstrated his will and abilities to track down down "infringements" (I hate this worls tho), and who is enough independent from CCP to be able to make public all hindrances CCP could impose on his work, if any. No f*** "democratic elections" could bring such people to that "committee". It only adds up to existing corruption and accusations, as those elected will be the worst of the worst for sure. Basically, control should be carried out by people who get paid for each case of infringement found out by them. -- ignorance is bliss
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:13:00 - [52] wow will we see giant SirMolle pics over Times Squares soon? :p ------
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Babbette Why is the NY Times and apparently BoB getting this information before regular paying customers like myself? I don't think this will really work. Eve prides itself on having the most cutthroat and back-stabbing players in any MMO. Is anyone really gonna trust 8-9 people you don't personally know to do anything in eve? How do we know the committee's trips to Iceland won't give them exactly the kind of insider access many in the community worried about with the MSN thing? If the committee becomes corrupt then what are we going to do? See what I mean CCP Some thing's upset me also but come on now people the you are criticizing no matter which direction they take. Give it a rest already yet. ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile. "It was empty!!"
Ling Xiao Prism Project Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:20:00 - [54] The idea sounds a bit silly by NYTimes coverage is awesome regardless Looks like Operation Ruin Eve ain't going so hot __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:27:00 - [55] A very interesting idea, I would certainly consider standing for a seat on the committee. However, the problem with having an elected oversight committee is that the people on it will be drawn from the most powerful alliance as they'll be able to get the most votes. And that would be BoB. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:31:00 - [56] If we're going to do this democratically, one thing we need to keep in mind is that it will require regular, albeit infrequent, elections. This should not be a one-time "you're in forever" club, representatives will need to be held accountable for their oversight or lack thereof. If we don't realize this, we'll end up creating a new and familiar problem, the issue of credibility of an oversight group (this time Internal Affairs, next our representatives). Too much time spent with the organization you are supposed to be monitoring may increase your bias, so we need to keep them true with the possibility of them being replaced by us. With regards to the theory that each of the 9 largest alliances should be represented, I strongly disagree. As important as BoB, the Goons, RA, and everyone else up on the numbers list thinks the are, they're still only a fraction of EVE, the 0.0 territorialist alliances - a significant demographic? Yes, but a dominating one? No - I have no doubt that they will use their power bloc to get endorsed candidates elected, and that's fine, as it is one vote per account/owner and this is the concept of popular representation. But, your interests are only a part of EVE's population, and the rest of us should have a say of who goes on that council as we're paying customers. Did I just do a "No taxation without representation" thing? Lol, internet first ?
zibelthurdos Archron Dusyfe Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:33:00 - [57] amazing, just plain amazing.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:34:00 - [58] Originally by: Rodj Blake A very interesting idea, I would certainly consider standing for a seat on the committee. However, the problem with having an elected oversight committee is that the people on it will be drawn from the most powerful alliance as they'll be able to get the most votes. And that would be BoB. I hope everyone understands that too big of a delegation from any alliance would be very bad. If people act responsibly, we'd just have 1 representative of any single alliance. The game would be ill-served by committee with 5 BoB, and the same goes for a committee of 5 Goons. I think the idea shows that CCP has been thinking seriously about the problem they are facing and are looking for a solution. So before we discredit everything they do, let's see how this works out before bringing out the pitchforks and burning crosses, shall we. We can always save them for later ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Hornymatt	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:34:00 - [59] Originally by: Gealbhan Wonders if anyone from Ireland will be on the thing Iceland is so close you could paddle a kayak to it, hehe. I reckon I could make it from England by Fredelo
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:35:00 - [60] Originally by: Rodj Blake A very interesting idea, I would certainly consider standing for a seat on the committee. However, the problem with having an elected oversight committee is that the people on it will be drawn from the most powerful alliance as they'll be able to get the most votes. And that would be BoB. He raises a valid point, the concept of bribery and coercion. The old adage about "Vote for me or we'll shoot your family" gains new meaning here, especially against vulnerable highsec dwellers that aren't keen on conflict. Alternatively, I can see promises of ISK, free territory rent, you name it being handed out in exchange for votes - this could be a significant hurdle to any elections.
Lord Seth Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:37:00 - [61] Originally by: Babbette Why is the NY Times and apparently BoB getting this information before regular paying customers like myself? I don't think this will really work. Eve prides itself on having the most cutthroat and back-stabbing players in any MMO. Is anyone really gonna trust 8-9 people you don't personally know to do anything in eve? How do we know the committee's trips to Iceland won't give them exactly the kind of insider access many in the community worried about with the MSN thing? If the committee becomes corrupt then what are we going to do? AND HOW DO YOU KNOW...A giant space ship will not fly over iceland and burn it to the ground? HOW DO YOU KNOW....that a meteor will not fall on your head today and casue you to drink from a straw for the rest of your life? HOW DO YOU KNOW....if your dog will or will not get attacked by a swarm of bees and die? HOW DO YOU KNOW.... if your dinner you had last night was not laced with some drug under testing by your government?........ Fill in your answer here:_______________ ....and you never will so does that mean you will not go outside? eat? or poo your mutt? or stop beliving in space ships that want to burn Iceland?
Ling Xiao Prism Project Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:38:00 - [62] 1 from each of the top 5 alliances (in terms of members or sovereignty or whatever), and the remaining positions electable, but not allowing anyone from the top 5 alliances. Best of both worlds imo. __________ If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing?
Xtreem Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:39:00 - [63] this is an excellent move. and i for one welcome it. plus i will be very envious of the people that get to go!
lordopic	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:41:00 - [64] I found it a very interesting read and is this the next step in MMO evolution? I have always wanted to visit Iceland.
Sakura Nihil Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:44:00 - [65] Originally by: lordopic I found it a very interesting read and is this the next step in MMO evolution? I have always wanted to visit Iceland. It is fitting that a revolutionary game tries revolutionary things.
Papa Ina GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:47:00 - [66] I'd rather you hired a proffesional outside body to do this but whatever. Atleast it sounds like you hired some proffesional PR.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:52:00 - [67] i whole heartedly endorse this idea, although i have almost-zero interest in going to iceland because it's boring and the women are ugly... ...OR ARE THEY? CCP, there's only one way to prove me wrong!
Zak Nefein Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:55:00 - [68] SoE tried this years ago, failed miserably... Wish you luck though.
Kalahari Wayrest	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:56:00 - [69] I'd love to go to Iceland Pick me, pick me! \o/ __________________________ Indulge Me Consider Yourself Indulged - Immy ♥ Wow immy scored - Xorus
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:56:00 - [70] Ok, we need Tiller, Ginger, and Kublai, some BoBs and there... Eve will be great again :) Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking (despite him stopping it ... ~Liz Kali
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.07 08:57:00 - [71] Well, I would definitely vote for Chribba to take a seat in this council. He have a outstanding reputation both from forums, from the game, plus his work with eve sites like eve-files.com. Also, he is a very old veteran an knows the game pretty well. Heck, maybe even make him a team leader! I dont think you can get any more neutral player then him. Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Na'Thuul Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:03:00 - [72] Chribba fer prez! \o/ I can't believe people that have been whining about transparency STILL aren't satisfied... What more do you want? ---
Daedalus DuGalle Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:04:00 - [73] Oh wtf?? Quote: (SirMolle would not reveal his real name but said that he is a 40-year-old manager for a heating and cooling company in Sweden.) I always envisioned him as the dictator of a small African country or something. Man thats disappointing. Originally by: Janu Hull Nothing says gritty cynicism like a 1 ISK note wedged between a pair of silicone enhanced knockers.
Hatuk The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:04:00 - [74] Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! illusha, you are really not to bright star in the sky (dont want to use some other word cos of it will be sniped) but that is another story... this idea is great, cudos to CCP. i have been criticizing CCP in all my previous posts since the 1st incidents involving evil bobitses but this might work.... ofcourse, if some criteria will be met - i predict we will have all bob pets\slaves vote for bob leaders and then we all at the start again. :-\ - few persons should not be allowed in the froup of 9 at any cost. i wont tell names here but we all know whos names are involved in any and all incidents. also, those guys should not be allowed to apply with alts or something. - dont send high school kids or people who have not started to walk the RL path (work). they wont have the experience needed to "look" at the right places. they will also easy fall at the propaganda of others, lets say 40 years old managers.... - someone with atleast avarage computer knowledge would be nice, so he can ask the right questions to sharkbait and the NW admins. blabla ... this is all i can think of for now lol just 2 ISK from sunny croatia
Ifni Applied Eugenics	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Lord Seth AND HOW DO YOU KNOW...A giant space ship will not fly over iceland and burn it to the ground? HOW DO YOU KNOW....that a meteor will not fall on your head today and casue you to drink from a straw for the rest of your life? HOW DO YOU KNOW....if your dog will or will not get attacked by a swarm of bees and die? HOW DO YOU KNOW.... if your dinner you had last night was not laced with some drug under testing by your government?........ Fill in your answer here:_______________ ....and you never will so does that mean you will not go outside? eat? or poo your mutt? or stop beliving in space ships that want to burn Iceland? Are you, infact, on crаck? Given that CCP wants to do this, and given teh prevalence of alts, and multiple accounts (cough Kayosoni cough) any voting procedure is going to be involved. As someone else has said, there may very well be coercion and bribes being offered, and I'm curious to see how this works itself out. I have to give props for a novel and groundbreaking approach to game design, even if it's a touch risky. You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough.
Kecheor REUNI0N Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:05:00 - [76] Just need to wait till Bill Gates do the same with MSN
Zothike Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:08:00 - [77] interesting idea but it's too late the damage is done, some CCP employee helped in various way to make BoB the super power it is now and they are here for long and trust and interest of the game will be back only when they will dissappear
Sheriff Jones Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:08:00 - [78] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 07/06/2007 09:08:13 Originally by: Lord Seth AND HOW DO YOU KNOW...A giant space ship will not fly over iceland and burn it to the ground? HOW DO YOU KNOW....that a meteor will not fall on your head today and casue you to drink from a straw for the rest of your life? HOW DO YOU KNOW....if your dog will or will not get attacked by a swarm of bees and die? HOW DO YOU KNOW.... if your dinner you had last night was not laced with some drug under testing by your government?........ Fill in your answer here: For God....am....I! So yeah, i have a problem with being serious, but it's the almost smallest problem i have.
Lord Seth Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:11:00 - [79] Originally by: Ifni Originally by: Lord Seth AND HOW DO YOU KNOW...A giant space ship will not fly over iceland and burn it to the ground? HOW DO YOU KNOW....that a meteor will not fall on your head today and casue you to drink from a straw for the rest of your life? HOW DO YOU KNOW....if your dog will or will not get attacked by a swarm of bees and die? HOW DO YOU KNOW.... if your dinner you had last night was not laced with some drug under testing by your government?........ Fill in your answer here:_______________ ....and you never will so does that mean you will not go outside? eat? or poo your mutt? or stop beliving in space ships that want to burn Iceland? Are you, infact, on crаck? Given that CCP wants to do this, and given teh prevalence of alts, and multiple accounts (cough Kayosoni cough) any voting procedure is going to be involved. As someone else has said, there may very well be coercion and bribes being offered, and I'm curious to see how this works itself out. I have to give props for a novel and groundbreaking approach to game design, even if it's a touch risky. UMMM Ifni, I was not attacking what CCP are doing. I was defending it. why did you quote me again? Just to say Im on ***** or did you misunderstand my statement?
MortyM Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:13:00 - [80] This thread already shows why it won't work. People believe CCP is corrupt because they want to believe it, not because any factual evidence or whatever. No amount of transperancy, openness or evidence is ever going to convince them otherwise.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:18:00 - [81] Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 07/06/2007 09:17:36 Logically, it's going to be a beauty contest to see who gets elected, which means on forum alt account strength alone BoB already has it wrapped up. However, if you're really looking for transparency and full disclosure, you should end the conspiracy talk once and for all and bring in the loudest, most dire critics to be your auditors and shut them up for good. Mittani, Kugutsumen, Remedial, etc...Bring them to Iceland and show them that it's not all a bunch of tinfoil and spin, and the "War to Expose CCP" dies right there. Go the easier, and far more likely route, and watch the howling continue when your "freely elected" review board consists of DBP, Dark Shikari, Blacklight, Seleene, et al...
Jaggeh Furious Angels Requiem-Aeternam	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:22:00 - [82] i think this is a fantastic idea. The only problem i see is getting time off work :) Travel To Eve fest from ireland
Tek'a Rain Gallente Isis Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:25:00 - [83] 3rd-ed or 4th-ed ~ Chribba for president.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:26:00 - [84] Originally by: MortyM This thread already shows why it won't work. People believe CCP is corrupt because they want to believe it, not because any factual evidence or whatever. No amount of transperancy, openness or evidence is ever going to convince them otherwise. I know and I agree. But at least CCP are trying to battle the rumourspreaders. And, if we get some good people in on it, which everyone can trust - Like Chribba - this might at least have some positive effect. I will always love and trust CCP as long they dont start on the same road like SOE. Like, not listening to players. Doing the opposite of what the true player-base wants (and whats the right thing to do) Originally by: Eldo Davip PORTRAITS OMFG WOOT. WE R GONIG FOR MROE BREEE!!!!11
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:26:00 - [85] Originally by: MortyM This thread already shows why it won't work. People believe CCP is corrupt because they want to believe it, not because any factual evidence or whatever. No amount of transperancy, openness or evidence is ever going to convince them otherwise. EVE is a game, and an enterprise. Like anything, it revolves around trust, rebuilding perceived lost trust, or reinforcing the foundation for easier granting of trust, is vital. I'm pleased to see more sensible and structural mechanisms being put in place for dealing with the concepts of relations, trust and perception alike. There is always human nature's tendency to be judgemental sure, and extremism is always with us, but this approach by CCP showes that the intention to amend and monitor is there. It is a serious better approach then more infamous marketing examples like "don't like it there's 5000 other systems you can choose from" :P Morty, also please keep in mind that this is not about the players of old times. This is something which especially is directed to new and newer subscribers, and it shows many people with doubts that EVE as an entity is still very much cared for, and will be, for quite a while. Some people may think this is a silly idea, some may think the elections are already rigged :P Thing is, this isn't about extremism. This is basically about fundamental concepts of EVE. I think it's a good thing, if properly done as EVE is divided by factions of interests, not by factions of perspective. As for people getting bribed and all that, jeez. EVE is a game which has a pretty damn long business plan. Anything you do in EVE stays with you, just like in real life, no matter how often people change face :P The human race may be weird, but only rarely do humans selfdestruct over pixels. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Zylatis Lacedaemon. Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:29:00 - [86] Well its definitely a step in the right direction, and Helmar hit it on the head when he said that its the players perception that matters (to a degree). However there are problems with this idea, some described above (most tho are just naysayers) Regardless of that im impressed and pleased that CCP is at least making an effort, how the application of this effort plays out remains to be seen. But i have high hopes nonetheless Good job CCP thumbs up
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:31:00 - [87] Interesting. I'd be interested in hearing more. I'm curious how they will avoid any allegation during the selection process? What sort of prerequisites will the representatives have? How many representatives will there be? Idea: Treaties Idea: Jump Rigs
ToxicFire Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:33:00 - [88] Intresting.............. ccp could quite literally become ground breaking in mmo's for another reason. Anyway whens the nominations/voting will that also be open and transparent. Sig removed as it lacks EVE-related content. Mail [email protected] if you have questions. -Hango
Liberius Deep Gallente Black-Sun	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:34:00 - [89] Halleluja, CCP gets it right. Perception matters. As to the details, it can be worked out. Interesting to see how this scandal can even be used to advertise EVE to the public.
Halleck Gurney	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:38:00 - [90] This sounds more like a PR stunt than a real effort to solve the problem. First, you should ask yourself how much CCP will open up their comapany to these 'elected' members for them to do their intended job properly. Most likely they will only get to see that what CCP wants them to see. For the sake of argument, I will assume that CCP opens up their comapany completely to these 'elected' members. That brings us to the problem of the qualification of these 'elected' members. It will probably be that the largest loud-mouths get elected with absolutely no clue on how to audit a company properly. If you want to restore credibility properly, you see that a reputable auditing company does the audits and publicize those findings.
Shalia Ripper Caldari High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:39:00 - [91] I wish this would work, but I predict the election will be an utter disaster. Which is a shame. P.S. I have tons of vacation time. And I love beer.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:41:00 - [92] Folks, after all the drama and the crap, from past and present, in regards to a whole and very complex virtual universe and a company which gave it to us, starting out small and growing very hard and facing its own travails along every step of the road trying to balance the concepts of the game, human nature and commercial aspects like marketing .... regardless of whatever, we're human beings. Nothing good ever comes out of denying people even the chance of making an effort, nothing good ever comes out of being unwilling to always be ready to give people a shot. Drama, crap, trust, broken trust, human judgement and perception, being completely honest here folks this is getting to a point which could be compared to in game affairs like giving people a shot regardless of past perceived or actual affairs. It is easy to whine and debunk, it is much harder to be part of a solution. So consider that please. And as a corporation perspective, it is not a small nor an easy thing for any corporation to expose themselves to their customers that openly (no, english is not my native language so if that came out wrong I trust you know what I meant). Anyone owning a business can tell you how big a step that is. In short, where trust is broken, it takes all sides to mend that trust. When someone extends a hand, you can either slap the face attached to it or reach out to the hand. Which will it be. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Trak Cranker Feral Tendency Ratel Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:42:00 - [93] Originally by: ry ry i whole heartedly endorse this idea, although i have almost-zero interest in going to iceland because it's boring and the women are ugly... I have been to CCPs offices - and I can tell you that is definately not the case there at least.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:46:00 - [94] Originally by: Trak Cranker Originally by: ry ry i whole heartedly endorse this idea, although i have almost-zero interest in going to iceland because it's boring and the women are ugly... I have been to CCPs offices - and I can tell you that is definately not the case there at least. Now that is something good and dangerous at the same time for the paranoid people among us, would they be there to welcome and comfort the auditors or seduce them to control their perception :P Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Maze La'Zie Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:49:00 - [95] This really surprised me. It's a huge move by CCP - I think it shows that they are serious about regaining the trust of the playerbase - as they should be. I'm also really looking forward to the drama and intrigue of the elections!
Mortecai Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:50:00 - [96] If there is going to be election within the player base to select the ones going to represent us then oh will it get messy at one point or the other. Discrediting the opposing candidates will become the typical thing, out of site posting of compromising materials etc. This will kind of bring real-life into the equasion but the rules wont change. What we do in-game on the forums we sure as hell will do out of game (bar the violence I hope). So it might end up one of the most suspenseful election in MMO history with lot of tears, blood, anger spilt to get to visit iceland. Someone needs to set a precedence on how to act in these matters and I dunno how this will play out, but 10pt go to the house of CCP for being the first one to try it and be a possible inspiration for other MMO companies who might face the same problems in the future. Good luck.
Ryas Nia Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:52:00 - [97] Originally by: Rodj Blake A very interesting idea, I would certainly consider standing for a seat on the committee. However, the problem with having an elected oversight committee is that the people on it will be drawn from the most powerful alliance as they'll be able to get the most votes. And that would be BoB. Sir i would vote for you. Recruiting Terrorists
Marshall Knight Ardent Industrial Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:53:00 - [98] To little to late Damage is done bob is taking over game is dying should of been done ages ago
Na'Thuul Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.07 09:56:00 - [99] Originally by: Marshall Knight To little to late Damage is done bob is taking over game is dying should of been done ages ago If it's so bad, why are you still playing? ---
La Tortura Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:08:00 - [100] Btw, if I were in goonfleet, I would do my best to rally all the alliance and alliest to make sure that only BoD and their friends were elected to such committee. That would be the best move to **** off bod and ccp and to have a lot of fun off it. -- ignorance is bliss
AceOfSpace Pineapple Blunder	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:13:00 - [101] Edited by: AceOfSpace on 07/06/2007 10:12:41 Wow. Gosh. Interested to see how this goes. -it's my job to do it-
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:18:00 - [102] Edited by: Goumindong on 07/06/2007 10:21:47 This is a fantastic turn of events. However much of that 7m you payed for this part of the PR was definitly worth it. But next time you should beat the NYT to press ;) edit: O.K. here is what i want to know, how can members of the community, when CCP comes out and says "We are for more transparency, and we are going to put that power in your hands" say "that is a bad thing"? At the very worst, incompetent people are voted in, its seen they are incompetent, and nothing changes. At the best, we get real transparency. When "nothing changes" is your worst case secenario, you are doing something right. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Anehra X-Fire	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:29:00 - [103] It's good stuff, but.. I'm annoyed that this went to New York Times first and not to the players. Clearly show again that the devs think higher about their business than their customers. frown
Malcanis High4Life Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:30:00 - [104] Originally by: Shalia Ripper I wish this would work, but I predict the election will be an utter disaster. Which is a shame. P.S. I have tons of vacation time. And I love beer. Make me your King!
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:35:00 - [105] Interesting. I'm curious to know what the procedure for auditing an MMORPG will be...
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:36:00 - [106] Originally by: Adam Weishaupt Interesting. I'm curious to know what the procedure for auditing an MMORPG will be... Like any other audit in RL, inspection and verification of communications, protocols, monitoring systems, roles / rights / function distribution, etc. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:39:00 - [107] This will restore so much faith if it happens. Here's hoping. _________________________________________________________ DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:42:00 - [108] I'd like to go ahead and announce my candidacy for the position of EVE oversight. Now I know, most of you are asking, why in the hell would we elect this G.I.R.L.? The answer is simple: the George W. Bush Paradigm, AKA "he's better than the rest of 'em". I have no affiliation with Goonfleet, and none with BoB. If anything, I'd like to see both groups crumble to dust, and 0.0 to revert to a state closer to chaos and anarchy, with small feudal fiefdoms squabbling perpetually over territory. I'm in a small self-sufficient player corp that has very few outside influences. And most importantly, I'm a heavy drinker and married to a woman you'd be insane to cross. Therefore, no quantities of strippers or beer could sway my unbiased findings. Amarria Black for EVE Oversight. For a better tomorrow.
MysteriousJade	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:51:00 - [109] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Adam Weishaupt Interesting. I'm curious to know what the procedure for auditing an MMORPG will be... Like any other audit in RL, inspection and verification of communications, protocols, monitoring systems, roles / rights / function distribution, etc. confirmd but within such an "election" you cant be shure the 9 people who went there can hande this. i see 6 of them just wandering around with "whoot cool!" on thier face, 2 just trying to get msn contact sry this "joke" is a must and maybe 1 who really knows what to do/look at/ask for... but hey give it a try ^^ it cannot become worse as it is now. Jade
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:54:00 - [110] Originally by: MysteriousJade Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Adam Weishaupt Interesting. I'm curious to know what the procedure for auditing an MMORPG will be... Like any other audit in RL, inspection and verification of communications, protocols, monitoring systems, roles / rights / function distribution, etc. confirmd but within such an "election" you cant be shure the 9 people who went there can hande this. i see 6 of them just wandering around with "whoot cool!" on thier face, 2 just trying to get msn contact sry this "joke" is a must and maybe 1 who really knows what to do/look at/ask for... but hey give it a try ^^ it cannot become worse as it is now. Jade Then we need to find those people who have innate experiences with audits, and strike a balance in older and younger subscriber representatives to send. Imo folks should be ready to disclose all characters on their account eve, it's a two way process really. Got to give something to get something. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 10:56:00 - [111] Edited by: Macmuelli on 07/06/2007 10:56:50 To show 100 % Transparenz u had to open every door . Not sure if this work for election members. (- cos there are allways things, ppls dont have to know) btw is SirMolle and his Band brothers woud control every 0.0 solar system, and wanna go into empire to conquer them too, i m interest which ways the politic into eve goes then. Or if this will be make possible then by ccp to set new Goals? If it s possible to conquer empire systems then via Empire Factional Warfare, and an "upgrade" to get souvereignty or or a place into the empire parlaments. The only way to make this happend is open a new Politcal player based empire control like voting for Gouvernors, emperors etc... Like we have seen by the Gallente election event. "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Gner Dechast Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:00:00 - [112] I am both suprised (doesn't happen often, but now CCP seems to be going WAY further than I could even imagine for a commercial entity) and I fully endorse the idea. Someone already said that this is being used for PR/advertisement value - I say, make most of it and parade it around game sites and magazines, if you do this the right way. Then you've earned all the publicity, IMO. I would have ALOT to write about this, but I choose not to bore people. Instead I only drop a few questions into general consideration... - How does oversight committee report to the community and how often? - Will the oversight committee have access to internal investigations files? - And surely some aspects fall under company confidential, requiring committee member to sign a NDA, but will there be appointed person making sure committee reports don't accidentally put forth anything confidential that isn't crusial reporting material? - Is the committee re-elected annually? (permanent committee would be a serious no-no) I tip my hat in respect for this plan. I hope it become reality in some form that reaps the benefits of trust and transparency. Now, while you're on the roll, think up something equally amazing to beat your programmers into fixing lag and 200 of the most commonly protested 2 and 3 year old bugs
Terminus adacai Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:04:00 - [113] WOW, accountability at last! This may actually keep subscribers paying and playing. Opinions reflected on my posts are just that, my opinions. They do not reflect views held by my corp or alliance.
Sha Dar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:05:00 - [114] Actually, I think has real potential.. I have experience with "real" so-called "professional" auditing companies from my previous job, on several occasions and can tell you that they are anything but. Having people do this that not only really care about the game and it's future, but actually have an inkling as to what questions need asking, will be much more productive imho than the run-of-the-mill bean counters. As to the actual questions that need asking, no doubt numerous threads will be debated here when the time approaches, and candidates chosen, so good ideas will no doubt be taken from them. On this move, kudos CCP. -
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:07:00 - [115] Edited by: DarkMatter on 07/06/2007 11:07:59 I hope these elections are held in-game only, and that campaigning is done in-game... Not enough people read the forums to have it held outside the game... This needs to be done right, or there will simply be allegations of election rigging... Building the homestead
Macmuelli Gallente Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:17:00 - [116] (For a PR to boost The member numbers of eve, it was a nice move. Set a article in the "New york Times", comment there is an alliance named " Band of Brothers". I think many ppls have forget now whats written before , and are courius who they are. ) Anyway it s the only move they can do to clean up there reputation. At least its a walk on a thin line, if there will more missconducts will come, they will get teared into pieces from the papers they had choice. "Ein jeder ernte Ruhm auf seine Weise.....Gunnar von Hlidarendi "
Digital Anarchist	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:18:00 - [117] As much as democracy is not to my fancy, this may be a good move. But let's keep some things clear first. CCP is not a government. They actually provide a service people want and pay for voluntarily. One signs the EULA voluntarily (as opposed to the "social contract"). One can always leave voluntarily and without hassles. Get your fix today
Tom Gunn Caldari North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:32:00 - [118] Its good to see CCP are doing their best to put to rest these allegations
Sabahl Minmatar Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:37:00 - [119] IMO Nobody from the top twenty alliances should be allowed to be on the commity. This is supposed to be about transparency. How much would everyone trust the results if they knew that people with obvious allegiances to the power-blocs who either make or defend against most of the complaints about in-game bias were part of that auditing group?
Sanakan Soryu Gallente Konstrukteure der Zukunft	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:39:00 - [120] i wonder how many BoD will get a free trip to iceland
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:45:00 - [121] I think this is a very good idea. Would proberly have been better if the news had come on the eve-online web-site first, then in the NYT, but no big deal, Ductoris did a fine job of linking it. I guess details of how many, lenght of service etc. will be forthcomming soon(tm). So you want to join us?
Aleric Vikyz Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:45:00 - [122] Originally by: Sanakan Soryu i wonder how many BoB will get a free trip to iceland It's probably more likely that the council will be made up of Goons than BoB. Which is a terrible thing for the community.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:46:00 - [123] Originally by: Sanakan Soryu i wonder how many BoD will get a free trip to iceland if they are developers, they'll already be there.
Hermia Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:47:00 - [124] I hope some of the more influential players consider this step and re-join eve over this. CCP are pulling all the stops on this one.
Benilopax Gallente Pulsar Combat Supplies	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:47:00 - [125] Simple, no alliances on the committee. Send empire dwellers, who have no interest in politics. I'll throw my hat in when it comes around. ------------------------------ Benilopax touched by an Avon!
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:47:00 - [126] Edited by: Patch86 on 07/06/2007 11:46:49 If it's done right, this is definitely a decent move. I'm no tin-foiler, but I must say that I find myself less and less surprised every time theres a new "scandal" allegation- the benefit-of-the-doubt trust I was giving them in the T20 incident simply isn't there any more. If this fixes it, more the better. On the other hand, if they don't do it right, it'll just be a waste of time. So a bunch of people get a tour of the office block- does that really solve anything in the area of "do they cheat, don't they cheat"? If you'd shown me around the ENRON offices, I wouldn't have been able to tell you that corruption was afoot- I'd just see some swanky offices. And in any case, if these Ombudsmen are drawn from the regular player base, they'll all have allegiances (if they're drawn from the forums, as an election would suggest, then they'll be well known, too). And that'll mean that some people will just disregard what they say anyway. Still, I wait eagerly to see how it turns out. --------
Jonas O'Fall	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:54:00 - [127] It all depends how the elections go. If the results contain a broad spectrum of the playerbase, then we're likely to accept it. But if there's 3 or more BoB/pets on the committee, things are going to get ugly very quickly.
Aphotic Raven Gallente E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:55:00 - [128] This is very good publicity for eve and very good news for the future of the game. I think a lot of people would simply like to know how many employees of CCP have characters in the top few alliances... Pick them by territory... outposts... whatever and reveal how many characters are currently in them (or have passed through them) Personally, I think that would put a lot of the community's worrys to rest. So how about it? Originally by: Dr Cupid Let me tell you all that I'm really enjoying eve-beta, and can't wait for the real game to come out!
BLAIYNE Shadow Play	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:55:00 - [129] Originally by: Mr Adequate What to do to keep restless citizens quiet? A committee! That is so true! Great idea though CCP. Once again it emphasises CCP's commitment to player involvement in Eve, and makes it seem as though the game exists for the players, and not the other way around (as could be said of various other MMOs). OK, maybe things haven't been handled as well as they could have been in the past, but at least with this bit of original thinking we (the players) stand a chance of seeing for ourselves what's going on.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:57:00 - [130] Originally by: Jonas O'Fall It all depends how the elections go. If the results contain a broad spectrum of the playerbase, then we're likely to accept it. But if there's 3 or more BoB/pets on the committee, things are going to get ugly very quickly. There should only be one rep per alliance allowed... Corps and alliances should have primary elections, then whoever wins those get to campaign for the 9... If one Bob rep and 8 Bob pet reps get elected, then that's the way it is... It's a free election... Building the homestead
MasterDecoy Gallente Raddick Explorations Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.07 11:59:00 - [131] good move P.S. i can see that the tin-foil brigade is already at work. go forth gentlemen! Originally by: Lavinrac Krad Quit comparing Eve to the John Holmes of MMORPGs
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:05:00 - [132] Originally by: Sabahl IMO Nobody from the top twenty alliances should be allowed to be on the commity. This is supposed to be about transparency. How much would everyone trust the results if they knew that people with obvious allegiances to the power-blocs who either make or defend against most of the complaints about in-game bias were part of that auditing group? EVE's schizofrenia will get in the way I'm afraid. Define the top 20, by what criteria, and is a support alliance an independant one, who will judge who is alt and who is a main entity. I agree this is about transparency, but trust is a two way road and equally important it is a matter of being familiar with the troubles and hickups, as well as having familiarity with audit processes. I agree that some organisations in game will raise more eyebrows then others on such a board. Then again, that goes for being on the giving and the receiving end of the perceived ***stick. This is tricky, in all honestly. You can't write off all parties involved in allegations or exposed to or at the source of drama, if you did that you'd leave open the folks who only have a very superficial perception and no exposure to the drama or the historic issues. Catch22. I guess the point is, that CCP is taking a big step here (if you own a business, imagine you have to open up everything to your customers, you know, those rude nosy bastards who complain about prices and god knows what :P), the fundamental issue is one of trust, it is up to us to look each other and CCP into the eye and be the better person. It's got to come from all ways, or it is a process doomed. And given that CCP are taking this step, it is up to us to rise up and be professionals and keep our eyes and minds open and reach out to that hand. Whatever comes of it, no matter how difficult the process may be, it is one that can't be ignored or treated with extremistic perceptions. No matter what the outcomes, the fact that the process is there should be a big sign. And hey, if you don't trust whoever you end up electing, or are unhappy with him or her, you can always pod the bastard to express your feelings. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip* Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
CaptianBlack Minmatar EFFI Reanchoring	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:06:00 - [133] so to these brave souls, who get to sort out all the little problems in eve... what do you think would happen once your ingame names get out in the open.. !!! (i'll leave this one open to your imagination) if they use your real names, what happen then.. !! some screaming loon knocking on ya front door @ 3am, wanting to knock ya block off... as much as it's a good idea to have independant group looking into aligations ect, it may cause more problems and arguments,then solve.. CCP, think again.. it may take 10-20 people to look into something.. but only one person should make the final decision.. they call this person a judge. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/c/capblak.htm
News Minmatar Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:07:00 - [134] This won't be an election. This will be a popularity contest. A silly one at that.
Perl Regex	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:10:00 - [135] Originally by: Sha Dar Actually, I think has real potential.. I have experience with "real" so-called "professional" auditing companies from my previous job, on several occasions and can tell you that they are anything but. Having people do this that not only really care about the game and it's future, but actually have an inkling as to what questions need asking, will be much more productive imho than the run-of-the-mill bean counters. As to the actual questions that need asking, no doubt numerous threads will be debated here when the time approaches, and candidates chosen, so good ideas will no doubt be taken from them. On this move, kudos CCP. I actually work for one of the "Big 4" accounting firms. I am not an accountant or auditor, I'm an engineer working on some internal software systems. As much as we like to poke fun at the bean counters I have to say that I have seen our group do some excellent work in the fields of company reviews in the areas of process controls and IT governance. Personally I think the concept is excellent but without some controls over who can be on this committee and what their skill set is then it may well end up being a farce. One solution to this that I believe would work is to have the committee as planned but employ some professional (and independent) "facilitators" to assist the committee with planning and execution. This is exactly the type of thing I have seen our group do (and no, I don't intend to tell you who it is). The combination of professional facilitators directing the efforts of employees with vested interests in the companies we have dealt with to do process reviews and come up with new ideas and plans works amazingly well (as much as it pains me to say it as I hate being involved in that sort of stuff myself). And to those thinking about running for the committee. Make sure you are prepared for the effort involved and please treat it seriously and keep in mind that the outcome will potentially affect a large number of people's livelihoods. If done right this will not be a holiday but ******* hard work. Now, pardon me while I go wash my mouth out with soap. I can't believe I just used some of those words. Cheers
Ska La GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:17:00 - [136] Originally by: Aleric Vikyz Originally by: Sanakan Soryu i wonder how many BoB will get a free trip to iceland It's probably more likely that the council will be made up of Goons than BoB. Which is a terrible thing for the community. Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? Your statement makes no sense, unless one is to suppose that the "community" you speak of is one of shady characters and others who have something to conceal.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:18:00 - [137] Originally by: Hermia I hope some of the more influential players consider this step and re-join eve over this. CCP are pulling all the stops on this one. Like who? I can say I know of too many who quit. Most are still here, just much less i public view. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:20:00 - [138] Quote: Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? Not really, your last temper tantrum was chock full of false accusations... You guys just whine the most, and then want credit for it. Building the homestead
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:22:00 - [139] Edited by: Qual on 07/06/2007 12:21:16 Originally by: DarkMatter There should only be one rep per alliance allowed... Free elections should be exactly that. Free! If Goons or BoB or RA or MC or whoever can get votes for 5+ spots, well, then thats democracy for you. It aint pretty, but we lack a better alternative. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Aleric Vikyz Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:25:00 - [140] Originally by: Ska La Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? To quote the 'Great Goon', from the 'State of the Goonion', "we need to go back at what we're good, which is to take the highest number of pilot, go to the smallest area possible and overload it with****gotry!" Yeah, sounds just like the kind of people I want with a hand in this game's future.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:27:00 - [141] Originally by: Ska La Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? Look at it like this: Once the election happen, the community will have its say. If they trust you guys to be doing the right thing, you will get your fair share of seats, if not, you wont. What individuals on the forums think about you wont matter much then. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
Windryder Caldari New Fnord Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:27:00 - [142] Perhaps this shouldn't be done by a vote - perhaps it would be better done as a lottery with a bias towards a diverse subset of players; i.e. not representative of the players but representative of the range of players in the game. I hope it isn't a case of the biggest alliances -> most votes -> most committee members. "Never underestimate the power of a n00b to blunder through a dangerous situation unharmed and obliviously unaware."
Ska La GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:28:00 - [143] Edited by: Ska La on 07/06/2007 12:28:17 Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? Not really, your last temper tantrum was chock full of false accusations... You guys just whine the most, and then want credit for it. Yes, our efforts to insure fair play have been far outshined and eclipsed by the beacon of justice that is the Mineral Aquisition Group. Thanks for everything you've done, including the mispelling of your own Corp Name. (Acquisition is spelled with a 'C') What is Goon? I want to know what Goon is...I want Goon to show me.
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:31:00 - [144] Originally by: Sabahl IMO Nobody from the top twenty alliances should be allowed to be on the commity. Then it's not representative of the community and is inherently biased. Hence it's pointless. No, arbitrary bans on people being on it will not work. //Maya
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:42:00 - [145] Deleted expletive, I'm pretty hardline against CCP, but having read that, I'm pretty convinced. It might actually be enough for me to stick around... It's a big, huge, step in the right direction. Not to mention, the first body that does this, will set a precedent, and the overseeing council could well develop into an international body for the regulation of all online entertainment gaming. That would be amazing to see. May I suggest that once you have this up and running, you completely overhaul the GM system into something a lot more transparent, effective and respectable. Eve's GMs are little more than a running joke. In any other competitive arena, the judges are granted an inherent respect by the competing. The GM system of Eve, and the clear low level of wits demonstrated by the incumbents deny and respect at all, and that is something undesirable. Powerful, respectable stewardship is what the vast majority of people want to see. Current chances of CCP seeing another penny out of me: Above Average.
Lasati	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:44:00 - [146] Originally by: Windryder Perhaps this shouldn't be done by a vote - perhaps it would be better done as a lottery with a bias... Didn't CCP already try that with t2 bpos?
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:49:00 - [147] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: Jonas O'Fall It all depends how the elections go. If the results contain a broad spectrum of the playerbase, then we're likely to accept it. But if there's 3 or more BoB/pets on the committee, things are going to get ugly very quickly. There should only be one rep per alliance allowed... Corps and alliances should have primary elections, then whoever wins those get to campaign for the 9... If one Bob rep and 8 Bob pet reps get elected, then that's the way it is... It's a free election... True, but it wouldn't achieve much (except giving 9 BoB affiliates a free holiday to Iceland). Democracy can suck, sometimes. And it's not entirely unlikely, either. EVE's 0.0 population is split in two large groups, the Coalition and the BoB Alliance. While the Alliance is relatively straightforward, with a top down "head" with alliances underneath, and a relatively united view of things, they'll be able to bring a lot of voting power to bear come election time. The Coalition has no such unity, and each alliance is likely to vote for one of their own. Maybe. --------
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:52:00 - [148] Patch, thee are a lot of Empire carebears. Lots. They don't usually say much either. But they'll vote for people who can champion their views. I don't think you'll see as many PvPers on it as you think. //Maya
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:52:00 - [149] Edited by: DarkMatter on 07/06/2007 13:02:19 Originally by: Ska La Edited by: Ska La on 07/06/2007 12:28:17 Originally by: DarkMatter Quote: Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. It would be terrible to allow them additional opportunities to help reform and improve a game we all love, wouldn't it? Not really, your last temper tantrum was chock full of false accusations... You guys just whine the most, and then want credit for it. Yes, our efforts to insure fair play have been far outshined and eclipsed by the beacon of justice that is the Mineral Aquisition Group. Thanks for everything you've done, including the mispelling of your own Corp Name. (Acquisition is spelled with a 'C') A goonie talking fair play? Are you actually serious? None of what you do is for fair play, it's out of hatred... Wow, my corp has been around for nearly 3 years, you're the first one to notice, props for that. Although it's mainly due to most ppl not caring... And there are corporations irl that use that spelling... Building the homestead
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:55:00 - [150] Originally by: Maya Rkell Patch, thee are a lot of Empire carebears. Lots. They don't usually say much either. But they'll vote for people who can champion their views. I don't think you'll see as many PvPers on it as you think. Yah, but the same applies to them as does the Coalition- little voting unity. If 20,000 people all vote the same way, and 180,000 (I know, I know, just an example) vote for 200 different people, the results are going to be pretty skewed. --------
Sha Dar eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:57:00 - [151] Originally by: Perl Regex I actually work for one of the "Big 4" accounting firms. Yeah, it was one of them I witnessed in action 3 years running. Basically, I think in this case it comes down to the people in question, whoever they end up being, not being "shown" as such what's what, but having the know how, (or gumption in my native tongue) to actually ask and probe in areas to find out what they think is needed to be known. -
Maya Rkell Third Grade Ergonomics	Posted - 2007.06.07 12:58:00 - [152] I don't know - there are some veery well known carebear personalities. Like Chribba. Also, I'd expect multiple voting rounds - with a minimum qualifying block of votes on the first round to get onto the second round. That avoids the issue, to a large extent. //Maya
XenoPagan Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:00:00 - [153] CCP comes forward with a suggestion to improve things and what do these tards goons do? whine of course. why won't you quit already? i even don't want your stuff
RossP Zoyka	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:02:00 - [154] Wow, that's a really cool article. Its in the NY Times itself? Or just online? I hope its in the paper because that's like insane EVE publicity. What's funny is that I use these articles as my recruitment tools all the damn time. Hopefully my brother will finally join after reading some of this.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:05:00 - [155] Originally by: Maya Rkell I don't know - there are some veery well known carebear personalities. Like Chribba. Also, I'd expect multiple voting rounds - with a minimum qualifying block of votes on the first round to get onto the second round. That avoids the issue, to a large extent. Yah, that sounds sensible. We'll have to see how CCP handle it. --------
Arshes Nei Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:10:00 - [156] Yes i totally see the 9 bob seats, after all the majority of eve players are in bob. They must have around 150k members last i checked, no really.
SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:14:00 - [157] /me wonders if i could poke Cyvok into looking at this... SJ. CLS CEO, Valainloce Executor and Standings Director =-
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:15:00 - [158] As i am the most sceptic person of all eve i would like to vulenteer for this job.. ->My Vids<-
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:21:00 - [159] Originally by: SamuraiJack /me wonders if i could poke Cyvok into looking at this... Pink Panty bribes ftw :P Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:22:00 - [160] Electing players to be on the overseeance committee could be a huge problem. Alt-Anonymity leads to a lot of the problems we have in the game currently. I don't see how I could, in good faith, vote for any candidate, as I have no means of knowing if they are an alliance stooge. I have no ideas on how CCP could address this problem.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:23:00 - [161] Originally by: Garia666 As i am the most sceptic person of all eve i would like to vulenteer for this job.. I'm far too sceptical to be a reasonable candidate for this job.
Test84984949	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:28:00 - [162] Edited by: Test84984949 on 07/06/2007 13:28:28 Nice CCP but it really doesn't change anything. The group will be made up of Bob or half of the Eve-O forum big mouths. IMO and to Bob ... CCP doesn't need your help guys... you're the main reason CCP's image is tarnished. If you're innocent or not you should stop runing your mouths in local about having Devs on MSN, and when the whole Eve against Bob war started you guys ran around with [DEVS] in your ship names. Plus lets not get started on your Ego driven griefing posts on Eve-O that somehow never get snipped. Its funny how you guys always run to the rescue for CCP. CCP are big boys they can fend for themselves.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:29:00 - [163] Originally by: Gaven Blands Electing players to be on the overseeance committee could be a huge problem. Alt-Anonymity leads to a lot of the problems we have in the game currently. I don't see how I could, in good faith, vote for any candidate, as I have no means of knowing if they are an alliance stooge. I have no ideas on how CCP could address this problem. Those elected have to have their real names divulged, as well as all their characters they play with... If they are honest, they should be able to provide that information. If they choose not to provide it, they want to hide something... Building the homestead
Selene Le'Cotiere	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:38:00 - [164] I think this is excellent news to help repair bridges that people feel have been burned. Rather progressive. I'd like to nominate Virtuozzo as a candidate.
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 13:57:00 - [165] Personally I think its a silly idea, but its not my company. Plus after helping run a hardcore PvP oriented mud for a number of years and having to 'bust' a lot of cheaters in the process I can't how this would really stop any single employee from cheating if they wanted to. Those sorts of actions can only be detected by those who know the system, know the people, know the commands, and have an almost innate feel for how a game works. Basically you need to know how to cheat the system to bust people cheating the system.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:03:00 - [166] I am rather confused as to why this was not announced to the community simultaneously, but at least it was fun to stumble upon this in a normal manner instead of through eve-o. I am a bit worried that this will have a placebo effect. CCP will almost undoubtedly not give the player panel full acess to the information they need and, even if they do, there is no guarantee that the players themselves will not be biased. It is, of course, eminently possible that any real control over these matters afforded to people whose only connection to the game is through their play will actually exacerbate the situation. As stated, however, its the placebo effect that we need to worry about first and foremost. Given that there are no details on this yet we are forced to speculate, but I would be shocked if they were given the access they need and if CCP maintained a sufficient level of separation between the auditing group and the company such that this does not turn into another channel for CCP to fraternize and corrupt/be corrupted by in game groups. I am interested to see how this will turn out and how transparent CCP will actually be with the group and how transparent they will be in proving to the community that they were indeed transparent. All in all, good step but the devil is in the details and failing to announce this in a more detailed manner to the community (unless I missed it) really limits the impact in the short term. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Vantras Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:04:00 - [167] As an occasional critic but true FAN of EVE I applaud this. Actually I find it remarkably well conceived, well publicized and rather brilliant! My compliments to CCP for this solution and for getting it in the New York Times no less! I look forward to an open and honest election and to the formation of an effective audit committee.
Mitchman Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:07:00 - [168] Originally by: Ska La Of course, since Goonswarm has done more to expose corruption, collusion and cheating than any other player group in the EVE universe. Actually, Goonswarm has done more to expose their own stupidity than any other player group in eve. You should all be banned wholesale with your cheap tactics to on slashdot, wikipedia.org and other places. New video: All Aboard The Pain Train
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:08:00 - [169] Originally by: Baun I am rather confused as to why this was not announced to the community simultaneously, but at least it was fun to stumble upon this in a normal manner instead of through eve-o. It showded up in a paper, while CCP are getting better with marketing they may have underestimated the dealings with such entities :P Or maybe the reporter combined a number of seperate interviews. I'm sure CCP will let us know. Soon. :P Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:08:00 - [170] Originally by: Herculite Basically you need to know how to cheat the system to bust people cheating the system. You are surely not suggesting the overseer committee comprise T20 and 8 BoB?
Ashraaf Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:08:00 - [171] Something totally unexpected I really like this idea. And i'm waiting for more information about this project. - I'm sure it will be time consuming (Preparation of the audit, Trip to Iceland, Redaction...) How much trip does we have to made for the job It's a difficult task. That's need tools, access to information, and people must have at least some competence for the job I'm very interested being a part of this team, but with my job i'm not sure i have to time to do it properly. I hope it's not a popularity vote about being a forum *****, but really motivation, and competence. Maybe a vote with the anonymous candidature could be a solution I'm sure CCP will formalize the project before asking the community to be part of it
Gee Lok	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:09:00 - [172] Edited by: Gee Lok on 07/06/2007 14:18:45 I agree with what a lot of people have said about this becoming a popularity contest. I really hope the mechanisms are put in place so that people who are responsible, trustworty and capable are elected. Edit: I read this again and it seems really negative. I mean this in a truly positive sense. It would be great for the game if CCP does this well.
ChironV Caldari VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:12:00 - [173] Holy Shatonashingle, Batman!! ________________________________________________ It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
l3lind Man Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:13:00 - [174] cool
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:27:00 - [175] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: Baun I am rather confused as to why this was not announced to the community simultaneously, but at least it was fun to stumble upon this in a normal manner instead of through eve-o. It showded up in a paper, while CCP are getting better with marketing they may have underestimated the dealings with such entities :P Or maybe the reporter combined a number of seperate interviews. I'm sure CCP will let us know. Soon. :P Right, CCP did not even do a press release as far as I can tell. Instead, NYT announced a program for them and we, as of yet, have essentially no information about it. Furthermore, while NYT might be as close to an international paper as you get, many people from other countries do not read it. The vast majority of EVE subscribers are more poorly informed on this than some random schmo who read his paper this morning. The Enemy's Gate is Down
Erotic Irony RONA Deepspace	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:29:00 - [176] Originally by: News This won't be an election. This will be a popularity contest. A silly one at that. This. Why in the world is this step being taken? The problem of Eve is the lack of professional standards that let up to the credibility crisis. Is it not enough that players are recruited to be GMs and members of ISD, to voluntarily bug report the misbegotten client and write every single bit of documentation thus far on top dozens of utilities? Now you want them to do an arbitrary peer-review and audit? Please. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
Quincy TawHarr Minmatar Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:33:00 - [177] Originally by: Herculite Personally I think its a silly idea, but its not my company. Plus after helping run a hardcore PvP oriented mud for a number of years and having to 'bust' a lot of cheaters in the process I can't how this would really stop any single employee from cheating if they wanted to. Those sorts of actions can only be detected by those who know the system, know the people, know the commands, and have an almost innate feel for how a game works. Basically you need to know how to cheat the system to bust people cheating the system. The point isn't to bust cheaters, which you are correct in saying a few people once every little while can't do. The point is to drop in every now and then and verify the fact that CCP isn't painted in any corps "colours" so to speak. There is no reason why this shouldn't be possible, so long as our "representatives" take the task seriously. An obvious issue that has no doubt been raised is the potential for alliances to stack the team with their people. This will give a few people a large amount of influence and care must be taken to ensure that the "task force" doesn't become another platform in the war of accusations. Fate, Chance and Destiny; they're all just ways of claiming your successes and dismissing your failures.
Kazuo Ishiguro	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:39:00 - [178] I wonder what format these elections are going to take? We clearly need anonymous voting, to counter the considerable threats of in-game coercion and bribery. There are probably going to be dozens of candidates, so Single Transferable Vote would be more effective than FPTP in reflecting the views of the electorate. Many people play alone in empire with relatively few ties to the community, and would have little reason to feel strongly about any particular candidate. It would not be easy for CCP to prove that the elections were free and fair if they conducted them themselves. I would suggest using a third-party secure online voting service; CCP could evemail each elector a set of login details to use. The next question: who gets to vote? One vote per IP is not a viable method, since many people play via shared connections. One vote per account is probably the best workable system, but favours the wealthy (either IRL or ingame), who can afford to create multiple accounts. As in most elections, I think players should be required to hold accounts of a certain minimum age in order to be eligible to vote. Trial accounts should definitely be excluded. I would go further and suggest that an account should be at least six months old before it gets to vote. This would prevent people from using a single GTC to buy an extra vote. There is a whole host of other issues involved with this process that probably deserve a thread in their own right. ------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking
C601	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:41:00 - [179] "Our goal in Eve is to control all of 0.0 space, and when thatÆs done weÆre going to take over the empire one by one and control the empire as well,ö
Sevarus James Minmatar Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:42:00 - [180] Two thumbs up for the NYT article and CCP's stance. It will be VERY interesting to see this one play out. Ubuntu 3d Beryl-Linux Desktop+EVE
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:42:00 - [181] Originally by: Quincy TawHarr Originally by: Herculite Personally I think its a silly idea, but its not my company. Plus after helping run a hardcore PvP oriented mud for a number of years and having to 'bust' a lot of cheaters in the process I can't how this would really stop any single employee from cheating if they wanted to. Those sorts of actions can only be detected by those who know the system, know the people, know the commands, and have an almost innate feel for how a game works. Basically you need to know how to cheat the system to bust people cheating the system. The point isn't to bust cheaters, which you are correct in saying a few people once every little while can't do. The point is to drop in every now and then and verify the fact that CCP isn't painted in any corps "colours" so to speak. There is no reason why this shouldn't be possible, so long as our "representatives" take the task seriously. An obvious issue that has no doubt been raised is the potential for alliances to stack the team with their people. This will give a few people a large amount of influence and care must be taken to ensure that the "task force" doesn't become another platform in the war of accusations. The point is to monitor and cure trends that are harmful to the critical element of trust and provide a new foundation for reaffirming that trust, and where necessary make sure that changes are made to prevent hickups. That is in a nutshell what an audit is for. It's more important here because of the perception factor, and because there is a CCP element involved of commercial ventures, remember that when there is no trust, economy goes down the drain. It is the livelyhood of some, it is the entertainment of others, it is a big part of of heart and soul of a lot. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Barwinius Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:46:00 - [182] Very nice CCP, very nice.
Fornacis Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:51:00 - [183] Edited by: Fornacis on 07/06/2007 14:51:34 Alright, well I'm half as intelligent as Baun, but I'm going to post my feelings on this matter. I think the big thing here is Trust. In any healthy relationship you need trust. This relationship being "I" the customer paying "You" the Company to provide a service. This service can be many things to different people, but for me its a game with a level playing field, and game free of cheats. I've played a lot of Multi player games, and the thing that impressed me in the beginning of Eve (almost three years ago) is that I had a feeling that my subscription dollars was going to improvement in the game with new content(no complaints here), and keeping my gaming experience free of cheats (macros, exploiters, etc.) I'm not going to pretend that I know anything about running a game company, but I do work in a software company, and in TechSupport/Customer Service for years. From my experience if you keep your employees/Customers/anyone in the dark about something human nature will tend to have conclusions drawn, and these conclusions will 90% of the time tend to be dark ones. Pessimistic ones...things that will eat at the very core of something like a cancer. I'm not posting this to bring up any allegations, because frankly I'm done with it, and if any of the entities that are being blamed really give a damn about this game/life called "EvE-Online" then I really hope they stop. (if said allegations could be true) Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going.
Karl Bohm	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:53:00 - [184] In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit I am posting in my alt's ID -- I've some 3 decades of experience regarding independent oversight. I'm a USA Federal Government enforcement lawyer. I spend my days at Agency HQ advising policymakers, top political management, and career operational chiefs on how to provide independent regulatory oversight of the US Dept of Defense. Sort of like a flea on the backside of a really big elephant, is how I like to describe the relative balance of power in all that. Yet, it is my experience that an independent regulatory overseer comprised both of technical and legal experts can effectively alter the behavior and ensure continued legal compliance of that elephant. And we do it in the face of some of the most determined, high level, politically connected, well-financed campaigns to flout the rules by some in the Pentagon. We've beaten them by knowing what questions matter, what to look for, how to reveal what we find, which parties outside and also inside the Pentagon to enlist to aid us, and, finally, by allowing those in the regulated community who would do the wrong thing fall down of their own weight -- they always go too far. As a law enforcement guy, I think I know how you audit for compliance in any given field, for the principles of how you provide oversight don't depend entirely on what kind of law you are trying to enforce. You need technical people to fill in the blanks -- and they, in turn, need guidance from us legal eagles on how to make their technical information and their technical judgments count. I look forward to CCP's efforts in this regard and applaud the spirit they display - for without it they risk surrendering to the disease that afflicts every online gaming community I've ever seen: all gamer communities I've played with over the years on the internet eventually succumb to a form of self-destruction stemming from the conviction by groups of players that other groups are not only cheating, but doing so with help from the sysops or software companies who created or own the game. We addressed it long ago within one small online community playing the old Freelancer game by establishing a court and holding trials - using advocates and evidence. Worked ok, but essentially took too much time -- it was, after all, only a game. The distrust thing happens, I think, because some players forget it is just a game, and winning becomes inappropriately important to them. That's also what makes folks cheat, forgetting that by doing so you deprive yourself of everything that makes the game worth playing in the first place. But even in the absence of cheating, when some find themselves getting the short end, for whatever reason, the cry goes up that they are being taken advantage of by insiders. Sometimes that is true, to be sure. More often, it is not. That said, I think CCP's Hilmar Petursson is smart to say ôA government canÆt just keep saying, æWe are not corrupt.Æ No one will believe them. Instead you have to create transparency and robust institutions and oversight in order to maintain the confidence of the population.ö I've made a career of some 35 years on that proposition in order to achieve and ensure public health and safety -- if CCP does it right, they will regain and maintain the confidence of players. I know I've done pretty well towards that end in my own work.
Hail Xenu	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:53:00 - [185] Irony of this whole thing is that it probably made eve more subscribers than it lost, getting in the NYT has got to be some decent media exposure. If someone says "all PR is..." then I'll ******* kill them.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 14:59:00 - [186] Sounds good to me CCP...lets get it done. Should not be a member of or allied to BOB, Goonswarm, Or any alliance currently fighting one of the above. Should not be a forum *****...DS, Chib, myself, or anyother one here that has more then 100 post. Should be sombody from minor alliances, corporations, and NPC corps. Should be a mixture of PvP, Pve, players And most of all, sombody that can be trusted... ROSHAN LONGSHOT 03-06-2003 18-06-2007. CCP THIS HAS BEEN A GOOD FOUR YEARS. YOU DONE WELL. BUT ATLAST ALL THINGS MUST COME TO AN END, AND FOR ME ITS TIME TO LEAVE EVE. CLEAR SKIES AND SMOOTH JETS
4rc4ng3L Gallente C R Y O FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:03:00 - [187] Sounds interesting indeed. However, im more inclined to believe this is a publicity stunt to regain faith with the playerbase, and although it is a good idea which i think has potential, i'm worried as to the exact amount of access these people will be given by ccp. I really doubt that they will be shown everything and most likely be only taken on a guided tour, being shown what ccp want them to see. If that happens then the whole idea becomes very half assed and brought to light as a complete publicity stunt, which in my opinion has the possibility of doing alot more damage. 4rc Death is the only true freedom, brought on by our own ignorance.... Welcome to the "free" world in which we live...
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:04:00 - [188] My vote for sale, 1 billion isk starting bid ! Hum... Joking apart, nice idea from CCP, even if it's really unnecessary for me. Well, I can't blame them from making themselves even more transparent.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:07:00 - [189] Originally by: Alias11 Our advertising department will be sending you a bill. Ha! I was just thinking "Wow...Goons have a plant at the NYT." Now BoB needs to get someone into the Washington Post. Won't a committee elected by popular vote be dominated by the largest alliance(s)? "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
gfldex Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:11:00 - [190] So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. -- There are countless games in the world. There are at least as many ppl that dont like one or more rules of said games. That never stopped smart game designers from creating good games.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:12:00 - [191] Originally by: Fornacis Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going. The danger is that unless this is done properly this program will brush the dirt off CCP's clothing without forcing them to take a shower; everyone will think that everything is OK when, in reality, CCP has either buddied up to the auditors, not given them the information they need to do their job, let corrupt auditors further ruin the game, or (and this is most likely) not given the community sufficient information about what is going on that we can actually trust that this program does anything whatsoever. The Enemy's Gate is Down
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:12:00 - [192] Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets i hereby suggest their passive and active rights to vote and be voted for are suspended. Why? Because when a company is audited people who do audit it are not friends with employees as, was it Blacklight?, who put it so eloquently members of BOB are friends of CCP employees and vice versa. Besides BOB and their pets are going non stop about how EVE is not rigged in favor of anyone and would make the worst kind of auditors because why would anyone want to audit a company that he is convinced has done nothing wrong. Auditors in their nature are suspicious of everything. Being suspicious and alert is hard to do if you "simply KNOW" all is in perfect order without even needing to take a look at it. T paint a preety picture for those that have hard time reading ;) Take the people who think something is wrong and persuade them. No point persuading George W. Bush to cast a vote for the Republicans on the upcoming elections. He'll do it. Persuade Hillary Clinton to vote for the Republican candidate. Now that's a mighty feat. If you can accomplish that you've won. I sure hope you will try to swing the voices of those that say something is wrong. That can be accomplished by letting in only those that think you are tipping the scales into BOB's favor. We all know who those are. Also characters less than 14 days old at present day should also not be allowed to vote. Why? To prevent an army of alts voting for the "right people" whoever they may be. What do you think? Flame away ;) Oh, The sig is about a pilot named Dukath flying a Vindicator I soloed one day. Pic went missing with the old forums... Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Laah T'Sin	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [193] Edited by: Laah T''Sin on 07/06/2007 15:14:15 The first thing that comes to mind after reading the article is: CCP 4tw! The idea with electing players is simply great! It shows that CCP really care about what "we" (or some of us at least) think and it shows that they are willing to go to extreme lenghts to make their customers happy. I think things like these will really build trust in CCP... simply wonderful guys! Thx CCP! BTW. The article in the NYT really really makes eve sound like a kick-ass game... i especially like the world of warcraft bashing hehe
Drunk Driver Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [194]
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:14:00 - [195] Originally by: gfldex So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. 3 from the Worker Caste 3 from the Warrior Caste 3 from the Religious Caste In Valen's Name! Building the homestead
vipeer Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:18:00 - [196] Originally by: gfldex So there will be a council of nine? Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky, Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone, Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie. LOL. You nailed it! Congatulations :D Chaining BoBo in south Feyth:
Yankee Uprising	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:20:00 - [197] Originally by: MotherMoon Originally by: Yankee Uprising /me puts on spectacles of reading between lines... Color me skeptical, but this practically screams "We lost a lot of subscriptions" to me. Enough to validate some plane tickets and hotel rooms. Oh yes, and great quantities of Iceland's economy fuel - beer. Oversite firms typically take months at least to come to their results concerning medium-sized companies. Are we to beleive that nine players, chosen by popularity vote, are going to have the time, let alone ability, to draw any decent conclusions? And how would they know where to look for shenanigans? Because CCP will point at a monitor and say "right there in that code... see? Nothing wrong there! Wanna beer?" Or maybe these folks are supposed to audit all the transactions taking place. How many happen in a day? This is a political move aimed at keeping the money rolling in - make no mistake. Rather than coming clean by being honest with a ****ed off player base, CCP has taken a brilliant step by using the players themelves as part of their smokescreen. how much more open do you want them to be? I don't want them to be open - I want them to be professionals. I want them to solve problems rather than try to blow smoke up our collective butt.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:20:00 - [198] Do we get a Ring?
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:25:00 - [199] Originally by: Baun Originally by: Fornacis Furthermore I hope CCP brush off the dirt, and get back in the "good" eye of the community, because whether anyone wants to admit it .. we need CCP, and they need us to keep this thing going. The danger is that unless this is done properly this program will brush the dirt off CCP's clothing without forcing them to take a shower; everyone will think that everything is OK when, in reality, CCP has either buddied up to the auditors, not given them the information they need to do their job, let corrupt auditors further ruin the game, or (and this is most likely) not given the community sufficient information about what is going on that we can actually trust that this program does anything whatsoever. Point of an audit is to give that cold shower. Auditors, as much as folks may try to snuggle up to them, they end up always being severely disliked, and often mistrusted by the people who are the subject of the audit. At least during the process. Why? Because it's suddenly turning the stick around. Buddying up with auditors, it's possible, but that is why the choice of people and the methods used will be so important. Frankly, I will be surprised if that will be easy. It is possible, but it will not be easy. Keep in mind there is severe distrust, and broken perceptions, but also keep in mind that CCP will have a deep audit. Never easy for any company while work goes on. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [200] Edited by: Herculite on 07/06/2007 15:26:10 Prediction: Expect to see long, pandering posts, from want to be candidates in the very near future. Its bad enough getting that tripe from RL. Edit: Hehe looking at this thread I can see a few people already trying.
Mekarae Amarr House Mekarae	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [201] So CCP decided to create some old republican tribunes of the plebs. Off the top of my head CCP need to think about the following, 1. Elected representatives must have a fixed term. 2. No representative may hold consecutive terms. 3. No alliance may have more than 1 represenative at any given time. 4. A certain number of seats held for various interest groups (for example an RP seat to 'oversea' events and RP related material). 4a. An individual must be active in said interest group to hold a particular group seat. Otherwise you'll end up with 1-2 alliances dominating the council. This could work out really well or really REALLY badly. -------------------------- "...strength through aristocratic rule."
Mysticaa Gallente Fringe Roamers of Goa	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:26:00 - [202] The pool of canidates will be biased from the start. You will end up with only people who frequent the forums. Now this may be good but will not get a good cross-section of the playerbase. I predict that the entire pool (or at least 80%) will consist of 0.0 aliance players. ----------------------------------------------- Why do I post here? Originally by: Tao Han "TANK CEO!!!" Quick Wrangler, to the Banmobile!!! Sig snatched by Xorus
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:27:00 - [203] I have to go make an alt named NoneOfThe Above for the purposes of the election. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:31:00 - [204] i vote for Miz and/or Romeo
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:33:00 - [205] I eagerly await details on this move. It could / will go a long way towards settling this mess once and for all. Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:40:00 - [206] Originally by: Kraven Kor Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this. Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth. The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so.
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:52:00 - [207] When can we expect more information? I believe that there should be no more than one representative from any given alliance or corporation including both past and present employment history. I believe also that the representation should be kept even on PVP vs PVE basis as well as alliance play vs corporation play as well as Player Corps vs NPC corps. The oversight committee would need folks from each walk of life in the game in order for it to have a more complete understanding of what is going on. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Kumu Honua	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:55:00 - [208] This will fall on it's face. I can see it now... "How many of the oversight comittee is in bob?!?" "Goonswarm rigged the election with thousands and thousands and thousands of votes!!!!" and so on and so on...
Omber Zombie Gallente Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.06.07 15:59:00 - [209] awesome ---------------------- sig out of order, returning soon FTEK \| Production ~ Research ~ Sales ~ Election Fixing
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:01:00 - [210] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Kraven Kor Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this. Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth. The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so. It is the person's perception that they see as reality... thus perception is reality... no, it has no bearing on the truth, but that is besides the point... You are with BoB, and would like to be considered an "Honorable" player, so you play the game as you do, you never lie, cheat or steal, you play as honorably as you can... yet because your name has a "Band of Brothers" alliance tag, you get painted as a "Cheater" because of what has happened in the last year... Truth is you are honorable, perception is you are a cheater... but to that person looking at you as they race away in their pod, you are bob, you cheated... that is their "reality" because they perceive it to be so... Granted, I don't know you, so if you are not an honorable player, please don't tell me, I want to at least think you are... part of my reality. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
invaderzim Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:01:00 - [211] 1) This is considered news worthy by the nytimes? Wow. 2) These elected officials would have to be based in iceland for them to have any noticable effect. 3) CCP would have to decide between "full disclosure"" and partial disclosure knowing that whatever they disclosed would be available to the eve community entire. Elections are only a good idea when the majority of the candidate pool are intelligent and sensible. Being familliar with these forums, I suspect this isnt the case. Besides, where's the accountability for an elected official whose real name isnt even known? What's to stop this official from making baseless accusations about something he/she'd seen? Would there be any oversight? ----------------- "Oh, he's very popular Ed. The sportos, the motorheads, geeks, **s, bloods, waistoids, dweebies, **heads - they all adore him. They think he's a righteous dude."
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:03:00 - [212] Originally by: Barbarellas Daughter i vote for Miz and/or Romeo I vote for Backdoor Bandit
Mari Onette	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:03:00 - [213] Originally by: vipeer Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets... The game is perfectly fine as it is. /Thinks Bob and goons are a bunch of whiners. //Thinks you are too. ///Don't put words in other peoples mouths.
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:05:00 - [214] Originally by: Mari Onette Originally by: vipeer Considering the people who are saying the game is perfectly fine as it is are currently members of BOB and the corporations/alliances that BOB calls pets... The game is perfectly fine as it is. /Thinks Bob and goons are a bunch of whiners. //Thinks you are too. ///Don't put words in other peoples mouths. You dirty Bob lover you! Building the homestead
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:05:00 - [215] Very interesting read and I am glad to see EVE get an article in NYT, albeit not a 100% positive one but still a good thing. And the idea about player representitives is pretty damn neat if you ask me. I just don't understand all of you CCP haters out there tbh. Can you name another private company that would even consider this kind of thing? I just wished SOE would have done this to get their subhuman executives to listen to their playerbase. But I degress. I hope the idea works out and will dispell a lot of the tinfoilhattery going on nowadays. "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Larg Kellein Caldari GTE Corp Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:10:00 - [216] Interesting idea, and one I definetely approve of. And a really good article too, just as an insight into the game without the usual "gamers are stupid kids" attitude from a lot of mainstream media. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Theoses	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:11:00 - [217] I haven't had time to read all 8 pages of what is most probibly ****ing and moaning. I would like to express my gratification that CCP are such a great developer who actually listen to us. Having come from Star Wars Galaxies where Sony fck*d everyone over. Anyway, good job CCP , keep up the good work. Theo
Quincy TawHarr Minmatar Empire of Destiny	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:11:00 - [218] Originally by: Virtuozzo The point is to monitor and cure trends that are harmful to the critical element of trust and provide a new foundation for reaffirming that trust, and where necessary make sure that changes are made to prevent hickups. That is in a nutshell what an audit is for. It's more important here because of the perception factor, and because there is a CCP element involved of commercial ventures, remember that when there is no trust, economy goes down the drain. It is the livelyhood of some, it is the entertainment of others, it is a big part of of heart and soul of a lot. See it's well spoken people like this that make me look flat out dumb. Well put sir, or at least far better put than I', capable of. Fate, Chance and Destiny; they're all just ways of claiming your successes and dismissing your failures.
Vactet Immortalis Silens	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:14:00 - [219] CCP..after all of the recent scandals my trust in you was seriously lacking. But this...woah. If this works as well as the concept, then youll have it again. I know of many companies doing this, but never a game company. I can imagine there will be some serious NDA's to be signed depending on how close people get to look but wow...yeh. Gratz, awsome idea Now lets hope it pans out. Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:15:00 - [220] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: Kraven Kor Perception is Reality and it is nice to see that CCP does in fact realize this (I figured they did, but empirical evidence of late has suggested otherwise.) Perception is not reality, I really wish more people understood this. Reality is reality, truth is truth, and peoples misconceptions may affect their actions but it does not affect the truth. The world wasn't flat because people perceived it to be so. The world was flat until someone showed them it wasn't, thus altering the perception. No, the world's shape did not suddenly change - it was round all along, accept in the minds of people, and thus we never attempted to sail around it. This change in perception changed the world. "Reality is Reality" duh. But, we all only experience "reality" through 5 limited senses - if we all saw REALITY we would not have arguements, wars, fear, sadness; we would all agree on everything because REALITY can't be debated -- only the perception of it can, and we only operate based on our perception and understanding of things around us. In this particular case, those of us who do think something screwy is going on won't be satisfied until it is PROVEN to us otherwise. Thus, Our Perception is CCP's Reality. ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:16:00 - [221] Originally by: Buxaroo Very interesting read and I am glad to see EVE get an article in NYT, albeit not a 100% positive one but still a good thing. And the idea about player representitives is pretty damn neat if you ask me. I just don't understand all of you CCP haters out there tbh. Can you name another private company that would even consider this kind of thing? I just wished SOE would have done this to get their subhuman executives to listen to their playerbase. But I degress. I hope the idea works out and will dispell a lot of the tinfoilhattery going on nowadays. God it makes me sad to see you with that Corp Tag, Bux-bux :( ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Montague Zooma Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:16:00 - [222] As a real life media professional, I'm impressed. Up until now, CCP has been shooting itself in the foot, but this move is excellent. I wouldn't be surprised if this winds up in PR/marketing textbooks as an example of how to take lemons and turn them into lemonade. They're taking all that free negative publicity from the scandals and making it work for them. The NY Times article alone is worth far more than the cost of flying some players to Iceland. I canceled my account and let it expire when the latest scandal hit. I sent CCP an email stating I wasn't going to resubscribe until the "MSN" issue was addressed. I doubt I was the only player who took such action. There's only going to be so much that nine players on a junket to Iceland can do to "audit" CCP. But at least some players will be empowered to ask the devs some hard questions and actually get some answers. This is a good thing. When I reactivated my account this week, I found the process didn't give me a choice of renewing my annual subscription and instead automatically signed me up on a monthly schedule. I was tempted to go on another "break" at the end of the month, but now I'll definitely sign up for another year. Money talks and CCP is listening. One player's subscription money isn't a big deal, but collectively we have power. Never forget that. Kudos to CCP for doing the right thing.
Baun 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:23:00 - [223] Originally by: Virtuozzo Keep in mind there is severe distrust, and broken perceptions, but also keep in mind that CCP will have a deep audit. Never easy for any company while work goes on. How do we know they will have a deep audit? At the moment we have no knowledge that CCP will actually do this, nor do we have any information concerning what the audit will consist of or how it will proceed. It could very well be the case that CCP holds "elections" for us to choose people who are flown to Iceland to party for three days and then have them release an IA-department-like "all clear on the western front" type statement. Until CCP tells us what information the auditors will have access to, what they will be allowed to report, how much control CCP will have over the process, how long they will be in Iceland and how often, then this whole thing is meaningless. Given CCP's apparent lack of understanding about what transparency means (see their latest attempt at transparency in their Dev Blog repsonding to the most recent allegations), I have absolutely no confidence that CCP will give us the information that we need to know that what is going on is accomplishing anything whatsoever. That CCP started this by telling a newspaper without releasing any information to their subscribers only further undercuts whatever confidence might have remained. The Enemy's Gate is Down
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:28:00 - [224] Edited by: AegriSomnia on 07/06/2007 16:27:49 CCP. we love you. We love the game, we love the drama, we love the fish. Thank you for doing something so outrageous like this. For you to offer this is an amazing testament to how concerned you are about the community as a whole. I am positive that this is coming at great expense to your orginization, and I am sure that the result of this new policy will be positive. We as a gaming community have a responsibility to understand that there are going to be times where the beurocracy is not going to work exactly as we would like it to. Much like real life governments, when a system is either broken or simply hasnt had all the bugs worked out, there are measures to be taken to fix it. And I think this is a grand step in the right direction. Patience along with perserverance are required, but only to the extent that something is happening to move the issue towards resolution. If an issue is not resolved by fixing the broken mechanic, it appears that the goal was to pascify, not remedy, This is a recipe for revolt, as you have seen. As a member of GS, I can understand their frustration, even though I was not a party to it at the time it happened. But please understand that frustration can make people say things that they may not really mean, or that they may just say to illicit somesort of response. I offer this quote to put my position into perspective, "The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is nanve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair." ~H.L. Mencken This to me sums up the GS position, and the position of those who stand behind GS. We truely do love this game, otherwise we would have moved on without a fight. But we fight because we dont want to leave. We want the broken mechanics fixed. Corruption is inevitable. Who knows? One day maybe GS will have a dev on AIM? Maybe we will be the target of a threadnaught one day. But swift and open justice is not only what the community expects, but also what they deserve. An honest and transparent government is the only one worth having. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:41:00 - [225] Very interesting indeed. Never heard of anything like this happening, will be watching how this all plays out. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Vactet Immortalis Silens	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:49:00 - [226] Edited by: Vactet on 07/06/2007 16:48:09 Clap Nice, and yeh you are right. Theres an old saying about fighting the residents of an area, or a country. Basically, you can expect a harder time fighting them because they live there and have much more at stake than press or the feelings back home. They have their homes, their families. Despite my personal opinion that GS might have gone to far with the threadnaught, i do believe that it was time for a serious look at CCP. So if all of the trouble that GS caused was for nothing else, than it was worth it for this audit board. Now i just called my mother..why? To ask a question. She is an adjunct professor of business history at a local college renowned for its business degree's. I asked her..."To your knowledge..has any company opened up elections to its customers to elect fellow customers to do an oversight?" The answer was no. Many companies have oversight committes (Spelling?) which are populated by representitives of the investors....but never customers. One could argue that investors and customers are the same thing in an MMO, but in all technicalities they are not. So...if all the drama had a point, had a purpose, i hope that this new oversight panel is it. Now as for who should be voted into the panel? I believe there needs to be atleast one BOB member. Why? They have an equal stake in the health of this game just like the rest of us. But i also believe there should be atleast one Goon member. They are ying and yang, but they are both colors (IF someone mentions white/black are not colors, you will be flogged with a wet noodle). The other 7? Id break them down into 3 older players (03/04) and 4 newer players (06). This would provide some drastically different thought patterns which would get alot more results than a group of extremely like minded people. If i had to put my vote forth right now? Id vote for a corpmate...a corpmate that has been my eve-daddy since day 3, and has shown his knowledge and love of the game over and over again. Now wheres the nomination thread so i can vote? EDIT: Hey winterblink, can we expect a new WDA on this? heh. Delivering the kick to the jaw of society to stop it from drooling on itself like the ignorant slop it is since 1984. Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed.
ScouseUK Minmatar Gulfonodi Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:53:00 - [227] lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game...... and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility.... LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day
Firane 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:54:00 - [228] Originally by: ScouseUK lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game...... and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility.... LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day Something tells me you didn't read the whole article. -----
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:55:00 - [229] Originally by: ScouseUK lol a story of corrupt ccp has made it into the new york times but i guess we will still get the same answer from ccp "were not corrupt these things dont happen" maybe this will be the kick up the backside ccp need to realise how corrupt they have become reguarding certain areas of this game...... and were did the 200000 population ive only ever seen 32k max people signed into tranquility.... LOL i cant belive i just read that it has made my day Silly little you...they do an amazing thing and yet you cry whine and make aqusations...why dont you quit, and stop your whining Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 16:57:00 - [230] Originally by: Vactet Edited by: Vactet on 07/06/2007 16:48:09 Clap Nice, and yeh you are right. Theres an old saying about fighting the residents of an area, or a country. Basically, you can expect a harder time fighting them because they live there and have much more at stake than press or the feelings back home. They have their homes, their families. Despite my personal opinion that GS might have gone to far with the threadnaught, i do believe that it was time for a serious look at CCP. So if all of the trouble that GS caused was for nothing else, than it was worth it for this audit board. Now i just called my mother..why? To ask a question. She is an adjunct professor of business history at a local college renowned for its business degree's. I asked her..."To your knowledge..has any company opened up elections to its customers to elect fellow customers to do an oversight?" The answer was no. Many companies have oversight committes (Spelling?) which are populated by representitives of the investors....but never customers. One could argue that investors and customers are the same thing in an MMO, but in all technicalities they are not. So...if all the drama had a point, had a purpose, i hope that this new oversight panel is it. Now as for who should be voted into the panel? I believe there needs to be atleast one BOB member. Why? They have an equal stake in the health of this game just like the rest of us. But i also believe there should be atleast one Goon member. They are ying and yang, but they are both colors (IF someone mentions white/black are not colors, you will be flogged with a wet noodle). The other 7? Id break them down into 3 older players (03/04) and 4 newer players (06). This would provide some drastically different thought patterns which would get alot more results than a group of extremely like minded people. If i had to put my vote forth right now? Id vote for a corpmate...a corpmate that has been my eve-daddy since day 3, and has shown his knowledge and love of the game over and over again. Now wheres the nomination thread so i can vote? EDIT: Hey winterblink, can we expect a new WDA on this? heh. Well, the players are supposedly going to vote in the 9 candidates. I doubt it will wind up breaking down that way, it will probably be Chribba, Dark Shikari, and the next 7 most popular posters. And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. I'm anxiously awaiting a post from CCP here explaining exactly how this is going to play out. I am sure they don't have all those answers yet, but reading this in NYT with no corresponding blog, dev, or Keiron post is a bit odd -- not necessarily upset over it, just curious. ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
DJTheBaron Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:00:00 - [231] Edited by: DJTheBaron on 07/06/2007 16:59:23 The problem with having any kind of election for people is that alliance leaders and forum warriors are not impartial people, and not the kind of people you want to trust with ccp office access. We need average joe eve players, not people with corperate or social agendas. If this is to be a board of review, it requires impartial entities, not the egos we currently hear whoring the forums or their alliance channels. "The Views & Opinions Expressed In This Post Represent Those of My Corporation & Alliance. So Go ** Yourself" DJTheBaron: FATAL Alliance Diplomat**
Luigi Thirty Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:01:00 - [232] So how do you make sure that one alliance doesn't blob the elections to get one person's 8 alts elected? ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:((((
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:02:00 - [233] Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see. And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy. Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up.
Rhaegor Stormborn Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:03:00 - [234] Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 07/06/2007 17:01:33 People who read this must think we are all crazy. RISE Recruitment Thread
Einheriar Ulrich Minmatar FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:07:00 - [235] Originally by: DJTheBaron Edited by: DJTheBaron on 07/06/2007 16:59:23 The problem with having any kind of election for people is that alliance leaders and forum warriors are not impartial people, and not the kind of people you want to trust with ccp office access. We need average joe eve players, not people with corperate or social agendas. If this is to be a board of review, it requires impartial entities, not the egos we currently hear whoring the forums or their alliance channels. Of course DJ......but i guess players ill vote for those, they know respect and trust.....I am hoping it will not be an alliance spamming contest. Originally by: Jiekon/CCP If you are sitting with a guy and he says "ok, i'm logging off now" and you shoot him, that is fine.
Neslo Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:08:00 - [236] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 07/06/2007 17:01:33 People who read this must think we are all crazy. But is it the kinda crazy you run away from.... or you marry forever :-) IE is it Manson crazy or red head crazy? From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Susan Acid Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:13:00 - [237] Originally by: Judas Lonestar Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. Please,get a grip.
Neslo Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:14:00 - [238] Originally by: Luigi Thirty So how do you make sure that one alliance doesn't blob the elections to get one person's 8 alts elected? Perhaps by putting forward a couple things: A) To participate you agree to get photographed and placed (with gamename on the website) with your "report" to the general population. IE 1 person with 8 alts can't be in the picture... it needs to be 8 people with their game name below their head. B) CCP can tell if there are 8 different real people or 1 person with 8 chars. They simply deny the "person and say he's already accepted in a slot" This will make only one person participate or you will see sudden "withdrawls" if alts get to the "final picking stages" C) I would suggest 1 player per alliance be nominated (not corp), then put those finalists to an EVE wide vote. (Also make rules like you alliance needs to have at least 100 people in it, so that we don't get these one man alliances putting themselvse forward, k thnx) It will develop a whole new level of politiking I fear, but with governmental transparency comes the darkside of government, it's elections. Just a few suggestions. From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:16:00 - [239] Originally by: Susan Acid Originally by: Judas Lonestar Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. Please,get a grip. So your telling me it would be impssible for CCP to get rid of all evidence of any scandals or cheating before the committee got there?? Get a grip indeed. You HONESTLY think CCP would knowingly let this audit committee find information proving they had dishonest actions? Hell, they might as well turn off the servers now if thats the case. If the audit team did find evidence of cheating can you even begin to imagine how damagingf that would be? get a grip indeed.
Neslo Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:20:00 - [240] Originally by: Judas Lonestar Originally by: Susan Acid Originally by: Judas Lonestar Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. Please,get a grip. So your telling me it would be impssible for CCP to get rid of all evidence of any scandals or cheating before the committee got there?? Get a grip indeed. You HONESTLY think CCP would knowingly let this audit committee find information proving they had dishonest actions? Hell, they might as well turn off the servers now if thats the case. If the audit team did find evidence of cheating can you even begin to imagine how damagingf that would be? get a grip indeed. What's more damaging: A) The Truth B) or what people thing is the Truth? Because look what happened when they didn't find anything. Everyone said "I can'trust them, because it was done all in house." So the challenge to them was "open your doors and we will believe you" and so now that they have, the next critism is going to be Coverup? Seriously buy this man a Tin Foil Hat.... the aliens are coming to get him. From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:24:00 - [241] Originally by: Neslo Originally by: Judas Lonestar Originally by: Susan Acid Originally by: Judas Lonestar Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. Please,get a grip. So your telling me it would be impssible for CCP to get rid of all evidence of any scandals or cheating before the committee got there?? Get a grip indeed. You HONESTLY think CCP would knowingly let this audit committee find information proving they had dishonest actions? Hell, they might as well turn off the servers now if thats the case. If the audit team did find evidence of cheating can you even begin to imagine how damagingf that would be? get a grip indeed. What's more damaging: A) The Truth B) or what people thing is the Truth? Because look what happened when they didn't find anything. Everyone said "I can'trust them, because it was done all in house." So the challenge to them was "open your doors and we will believe you" and so now that they have, the next critism is going to be Coverup? Seriously buy this man a Tin Foil Hat.... the aliens are coming to get him. HAHA. Yep, cause CCP will let documented proof of cheating to help BOB come to light. Riiiiight. Keep pouring the Koolaid, theres lots here drinkin.
CyberChick Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:25:00 - [242] I hope that this oversight committee is made up of non alliance/major alliance players, at least this way there can be no calls of foul play... Maybe if players wish to change from non alliance/major alliance play style they could advise ccp to search for a replacement
suza Prison Break Inc. FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:30:00 - [243] Having read the news article I am so pleased that they have put my mind at rest that there is no favouritism from CCP to any one allience.. See they even got quotes from a good and broud player base, I mean they would not have used only two BoB players Hmmmmmmmmm. - Fly Hard, Fly fast for tomorrow is another day for Killing!
Maxpie Cross Roads	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:35:00 - [244] Nice idea. I nominate - me! I can't wait to have the conversation with my wife, it will probably be something like, "Honey, I have to go to Iceland for a while." "Why?" she asks. "Well, you know that game I constantly play, you know, the one that you get angry at me for spending too much time with. Well, they want some of the players to fly to Iceland and make sure they are doing everything properly and I volunteered." "Honey, what are you doing?" "Honey, put down the knife..." He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:36:00 - [245] Funny, I have always figured that while folks at CCP may have bent and broken the rules (Shattered them in T20Æs case) that CCP as a company was not at faultà at least not at fault for the cheating. I thought the steps they had taken when the T20 thing came to light were a good start, perhaps late, but a good startà Then I see this article praising CCP and Eve in the New York Timesà a NEWS Paper that buried a plot to blowup part of the city and the biggest Airport in the area (JFK International Airport) even with all the proof and arrests, on page 37à a Paper that Praises the prosecution of one person for lying under oath by a prosecutor that knew early on that there was no crime but went on a witch hunt, yet berated the prosecution of another man who knowingly lied to a grand jury in a real caseà to say the NYT is biased is an understatementà But as I read the article I realized that the NYT had no real idea how Eve works, had they, the article would have been vastly differentà like ôEmpire Space is Safeöà and no mention of the Pure Capitalism that is the Eve Market place. At the heart of the story is another attempt by CCP (Whom, as I said above, I have never held at fault in any of this) to try to allay the conspiracy fearsà 9 players, voted on by the playersà a great idea in theory, but god forbid some group is represented, not represented, over representedà so much for any credibilityà will be given accessà how much access? Will it be enough?? What was hidden??? Will they know what they are looking at, looking for???? More then 20 years ago now I had a problem with a bankà I lost several hundred dollars from my checking account via ATMÆsà my book keeping at the time was sloppy, but not that sloppyà but I had no proofà so for 2 months, every time I needed money from the ATM, I took out the same amountà $40.00à if I needed more, I went several times and took out $40.00 at a timeà I saved the slips, kept good notes on the time and datesà really cleaned up my book keepingà and in the middle of the second month, there was a withdrawal for $60.00à I took my slips, my statements and my notes to the bank, a week later they sent me a 1.5 inch by 3 inch slip of paper with some codes on it and said ôSee, proof you withdrew the moneyöà it was proof for them, but meant nothing to meà I changed banks and never had the problem again. While I think this ôPlayer Committeeö sounds all well and good, I fear it will do more to fuel the fire, then to dowse the flamesà but I wish you luck in finding folks that are knowledgeable enough to be able to audit you, non-biased enough to be creditable and willing to put their names and credentials on the lineà because anything less will be a waste of time and money. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:37:00 - [246] Originally by: NY Times in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers. And the BoB epeen has now reached epic proportions. Good work guys, you've made the big time! ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Red Rumurder 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:38:00 - [247] Originally by: Yurii Chan NYT is #1 American paper imo. hehe that made me laugh i like the idea CCP keep up the good work
VinceNoir Amarr Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:41:00 - [248] Ylarbo Janks tbh, his report back would lay waste to all who tried to compete. Originally by: "Shanda Captison" Vince, you can't even spell ECM m8
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:43:00 - [249] I still say it's far far faaaaaar to early to judge whether this is an awesome or awful idea. Tons of details still have to be hammered out, about how people are selected and elected. The vote blob issue is a big one, in my opinion. Also, what powers do they have as this committee? Say they DO find something, then what? They get to write the press release? Spank the offending developer? Or just get the right to have their arm-waving posts about it stickied on the forum? Personally I think it's an interesting concept and I'm looking forward to hearing more about what CCP has planned for it. But for the naysayers, put away your tinfoil hats until some real concrete details emerge. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Ammoina University of Caille	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:48:00 - [250] Don't know if I like this solution or hate it. But it will lend CCP some serious legitimacy in the eyes of 90% of the player population.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:55:00 - [251] Of course, the "oversight comitee" would have to be made up of players that have been playing longer as, say one year, and have never been part of any major alliance, nor interacted seriously with any major alliance. CAREBEAR POWER ! _ New char creation guide \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.06.07 17:58:00 - [252] Send 9 BoB members over there... Sorry, I had to. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:04:00 - [253] Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! I'm sorry if you are to, but I personnaly don't have to explain my boss what I am doing in vacations. "Sorry Boss, I have to go to South of France for a little sunbath, drinking wine with lovely ladies.". Well, no. It's private. Nobody should know, or have to know. It's a good thing. CCP must do that by players because we are the customers. No 3rd compagny audit could be satisfying enough to the players. Imagine you read that : "WhateverCorpYouDon'TKnowTheName said CCP is clean." Would you thrust them ? And now : say a big big thrusted compagny like this exists. #1 Rolls Royce of IBM of the NASA. Do you really think they will charge less than CCP having to actually pay for 9 plane tickets ? I think the NASA will come with 452526 people, charging 452526 plane tickets + isk/h employees (free for any player) + whatever charges (a few beers for the players would be enough) + benefits. Now our benefits would be player-made opinion. It's nice. the only wrong thing is we'll see "pick me, pick me, I'll do a great job" and actually just applying for the free plane ticket. :/ ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Godar Marak Amarr Return Of Red Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:04:00 - [254] Those elected people will become powerfull = more bribes and dirty tricks. Horrible idea! CCP just needs to employ some strict guy that doesnt have any type of human emotions. A being that cant be reasoned with, cant be stopped, and will never backdown. CCP should just hire a librarian. -------------------- '\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/' Cant we all just get along?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:06:00 - [255] Originally by: Neslo What's more damaging: A) The Truth B) or what people thing is the Truth? For me, it's B. ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:10:00 - [256] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: NY Times in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers. And the BoB epeen has now reached epic proportions. Good work guys, you've made the big time! Well, Bob is strong, etc. Can't you agree with this ? ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:10:00 - [257] Originally by: Godar Marak CCP just needs to employ some strict guy that doesnt have any type of human emotions. A being that cant be reasoned with, cant be stopped, and will never backdown. Donald Rumsfeld probably wouldn't like Iceland. erm...GOONSWARM IS EBIL.
TWAIN GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:14:00 - [258] Edited by: TWAIN on 07/06/2007 18:20:42 Edited by: TWAIN on 07/06/2007 18:16:53 I really want this to be more than a popularity contest, or a cheap publicity stunt, but honestly how could it be? I really applaud CCP for making the effort in this, and it's a fine idea on paper, but somehow I doubt this will actually work as intended. They need to hire a professional, third-party, external auditor, who can be directly contacted by the playerbase to voice our concerns. Any member of this community who has any high degree of knowledge of this game's mechanics, politics, or community would inevitably draw public concern as to their agenda. That's essentialy everybody who would ever be nominated, or seek nomination. Nobody could be, or would be, above reproach. Issues of how long they should hold office really don't apply, since everybody will be seen as equally culpable. Anybody willing to do this better be prepared to have their name dragged through the mud, humiliated, and then stomped on repeatedly. Further, there's really no way to encapsulate the concerns of this diverse a community with a single delegation. The idea circulating about the top 9 alliances getting a single delegate each? Preposterous. What about the other 75% of the players in 0.1+ space? The non-vocal majority of casual players who don't read the forums? Or how about the roleplayers? They have a stake in involvement regardless of their corps, considering a number of past incidents has involved them. And this should certainly not be something only so-called vets or community pillars should be allowed to particpate in, as somebody who started in the last six months would have just as many concerns that warrant addressing. And, heaven forbid, what could possibly be done to prevent the committee itself from being corrupted, bought off, or otherwise become a perversion of itself? And really now, how many people around here can code in Python, let alone the (admittedly) giberish extensions they've made to it? Hell, how many people in the world? How many people in this community would have technical expertise to interpret their database, but not be in a position that would warrant concern over their access or knowledge of it at the end of the day? At least an external auditor would have the resources to hire independent programming experts to verify/disprove customer concerns. There are literally thousands of companies who have people like this on staff already, so it begs the real question: If they're serious about true transparency, why aren't they taking serious steps to ensure it? More direct involvement in CCPs affairs by the playerbase (and vice versa) is exactly what this situation does not need. With concerns raised from recruiting ISDs, GMs, and devs right out of the (still active) playerbase, what on earth makes anyone think the committee will be any less scutinized in their actions? Where would it end -- an internal affairs program for the committee itself? That would just end up with more redirected blame and community drama. Nobody here wants that.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:15:00 - [259] Originally by: Godar Marak Those elected people will become powerfull = more bribes and dirty tricks. Horrible idea! CCP just needs to employ some strict guy that doesnt have any type of human emotions. A being that cant be reasoned with, cant be stopped, and will never backdown. CCP should just hire a librarian. Are you a librarian ? These 9 people HAVE TO represent Eve player base. So I guess we will see just say, 2 Bob/Alliance guy, 2 Coalition guys, 3 not aligned 0.0 guy and rest of Empire. ----- History is made by whinners Originally by: DB Preacher (...) Ignore what the coalition muppets are saying on their forums (...)
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:17:00 - [260] Originally by: Kraven Kor God it makes me sad to see you with that Corp Tag, Bux-bux :( Awww Kraven, I am still the luvable motormouth you remember me as. I wish I could convince you about BoB not being this ebil cheating juggernaut. I wouldn't be with them if I thought otherwise. Everyone knows my staunch dislike for script kiddies in CS, let alone an important game like this. But having said that, come to the darkside Kraven "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:20:00 - [261] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Godar Marak Those elected people will become powerfull = more bribes and dirty tricks. Horrible idea! CCP just needs to employ some strict guy that doesnt have any type of human emotions. A being that cant be reasoned with, cant be stopped, and will never backdown. CCP should just hire a librarian. Are you a librarian ? These 9 people HAVE TO represent Eve player base. So I guess we will see just say, 2 Bob/Alliance guy, 2 Coalition guys, 3 not aligned 0.0 guy and rest of Empire. ...I think they would kill each other on the plane. erm...GOONSWARM IS EBIL.
Buxaroo Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:21:00 - [262] Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: NY Times in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers. And the BoB epeen has now reached epic proportions. Good work guys, you've made the big time! /me gets tape measure out Muwhahahahah! Muwhahahahaha! Muwhahahahahah! "No matter where you go, there you are" - Buckaroo Banzai
Lady Branwen Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:25:00 - [263] Edited by: Lady Branwen on 07/06/2007 18:24:45 CCP if your really serious about this, and it's not something some pecker head dreampt up on MSN, then you need to hire a firm of Pro's who know how to do this sort of thing, not take a bunch of numpties who, as someone said "take an internet spaceship game far to seriously" and who i might add know sod all about auditing their toe nails, let alone a large company. Let a pro company do the job properly
Tennessee Jack	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:25:00 - [264] You are going to bring 9 people.. who have no clue on Eve Online's programming.. No expertise on how to be an auditor as a method of bringing trust into a community? Why? How does this comfort.. or FIX anything. You broke the economy and unbalanced the game... YOU broke it.. and you haven't bothered to fix it. And now you think shipping 9 people over for a week to do "oversight" will make everything better? If you believe that's true... you should stick your buddy in a doorway and slam the door shut. Why don't you Buy a Monkey and say that HE SAID that the Dev's are legit. There is no way a bunch of Popular Community people can recognize fraud, see illegal incidents, find where and why CCP went wrong. These people are not trained in such methodologies, have no expertise in this area.. nor know what the heck they are looking at or for. "Inspect every Nook and Cranny?" Do you really believe we all are THAT STUPID? I'm sorry.. but this is a bullsh-- publicity stunt.
MajikKat	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:26:00 - [265] You know as I sit here at work I kinda feel bad for CCP in all this....you see I'm comparing my workplace with CCP. I work in a family owned software company who goes the extra mile to have a strong relationship with customers. I think the bulk of our customers really enjoy the extra attention and support that they don't receive from bigger companies of our similar product line. I figure CCP started as the company that wanted strong ties with the community in Eve. They have the Fanfest where everyone gets to meet and hang out with the developers and people of CCP. Since CCP appear to be fluffy cuddly folks you can't help but fall in love and friendships are forged. I'm going to say that 90% of these friendships are nothing more, but then you have 10% of these friendships that abuse this. Wanting things, Asking things, ....etc. Shame really....
Cipher7 Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:29:00 - [266] People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA. They are too strong and nobody can beat them. If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged. People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing.
Del369 Caldari Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:34:00 - [267] Originally by: Cipher7 People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA. They are too strong and nobody can beat them. If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged. People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing. VVV Originally by: zincol Speed Dial ftw
veritas primus	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:37:00 - [268] Originally by: Cipher7 People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA. They are too strong and nobody can beat them. If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged. People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing. Ummm...no ppl hate Bob because they are successful and the vomit this in Eve's face with overwhelming arrogance. Then add in CCP allegations which most entities would keep it on the "down-low" but oh no....they run their mouths in local with MSN garbage, make posts about having strong relationships with Devs, name their ships with [DEVS] in the title, and it goes on...and on...and on...if I were CCP I would have gagged them long ago, and anyone else fueling this junk. But there again....CCP seems to embrace Bob, and Bob embraces back...and you wonder where the community draws their conclussions? LOL...
Judas Lonestar Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:37:00 - [269] Originally by: Buxaroo Originally by: Ridley Tree Originally by: NY Times in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers. And the BoB epeen has now reached epic proportions. Good work guys, you've made the big time! /me gets tape measure out Muwhahahahah! Muwhahahahaha! Muwhahahahahah! If you need another one you can use mine. I never get to use it anyways.
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:41:00 - [270] Originally by: Judas Lonestar Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see. And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy. Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up. I didnt get the impression that this was a one time occourance. I thought it sounded like there would be, at least, annual reviews, maybe even semi-annual. But for Christs Sake man, this is a game. Enron and Worldcom ruined peoples REAL LIVES. I personally suffered from Enron, being a resident of California. Rolling blackouts are NOT COOL! Everyday, entire cities would lose power for hours, and that included stoplights! CA. trafiic was bad enough without that clusterfck. Imagine being at work or school and having everything power down for the rest of the day. I lost a lot of work because of it. BRAVO, CCP. We look forward to many positive and enjoyable years playing your wonderful game. And if you think its fed beyond fixing, why not just leave? Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:46:00 - [271] Democracy failed in real life, why should it work in a science fiction MMO? You can't possibly elect people from the memberbase who are objective enough to monitor Dev/GM activities. If members from the alliance (BoB/MC/allies) get elected, a good bunch of Coalition members will call them biased, and vice versa. It'll eventually boil down to collecting as much votes as possible to get a free trip to Iceland. Besides, if CCP are orginasing the elections, who can guarantee they'll not be rigged to insure the majority are BoB-affiliated? I personally see no acceptable way for selecting a few players to perform audit on CCP, you can not avoid bias and you can't guarantee it'll be completely honest. The only way to go is hiring a neutral 3rd party audit company. Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 18:50:00 - [272] Edited by: AegriSomnia on 07/06/2007 18:51:58 Originally by: TWAIN a really long post full of great points o/ signed It has to be a 3rd party professional corp. I understand the initial thought of having players involved, CCP wants its community to know it HONESTLY CARES. But, they do need to look beyond that and see how a 3rd party will be above all of this petty politika and perform a thourough and incontrovertable analysis. Originally by: Cipher7 People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA. They are too strong and nobody can beat them. Your nationalism clouds your reason. I am the most true-blooded American patriot, who lives and dies by his Constitution, but we are not invulnerable, friend. We CAN be defeated, and currently we are, if you haven't noticed. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:03:00 - [273] Originally by: AegriSomnia Originally by: Judas Lonestar Fortunately CCP has had plenty of time to cover any evidence they dont want people to see. And based on some of the posts here most players bought it hook line and sinker. Remember Enron? Remember Worldcom? Those 2 damn near covered it all up, and the problems CCP has are a drop in the bucket compared to that. I can tell you RIGHT NOW how it will end. Committee flies over, committee is given "full" access to already audited logs and files. Committee finds nothing, proclaims CCP to be in the right, everyone is happy. Brilliant move by CCP really. This is more a PR event then any proof their on the up and up. I didnt get the impression that this was a one time occourance. I thought it sounded like there would be, at least, annual reviews, maybe even semi-annual. But for Christs Sake man, this is a game. Enron and Worldcom ruined peoples REAL LIVES. I personally suffered from Enron, being a resident of California. Rolling blackouts are NOT COOL! Everyday, entire cities would lose power for hours, and that included stoplights! CA. trafiic was bad enough without that clusterfck. Imagine being at work or school and having everything power down for the rest of the day. I lost a lot of work because of it. BRAVO, CCP. We look forward to many positive and enjoyable years playing your wonderful game. And if you think its fed beyond fixing, why not just leave? This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems. While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flyingà problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot. None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:09:00 - [274] So I guess people like Dianabolic can also be on the comittee? Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
CptEav1s	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:15:00 - [275] Lol gotta love at the end how they put that they didn't make the game to win it Duh they have cool rights becuase they're CCP anyway, and as for my thoughts on the guy who played in BoB, well his mistake he wanted to screw up a good thing and even though it sucks for everyone else he aint around no more so HAHAHAHA to him. Big Brain Fart !
Damon Ra Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:17:00 - [276] This is a step in the right direction, however... Players cannot be used to fill the auditing role. You need an unbiased and professional and completely uninvolved 3rd party to do this, and the timing of their inspection/review needs to be completely unannounced to your staff if you expect anyone with half a brain to believe it was done honestly and legitimately. CCP, stop using volunteers to perform key roles within your company. It may seem like a good idea from a financial standpoint, however you will always get what you pay for. Current Tranquility status: SELECT production_code FROM SISI WHERE testers = 'players' AND testers <> 'ccp_staff' AND testing_duration <> 'sufficient';
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:26:00 - [277] Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: AegriSomnia My post full over very on topic and powerful thoughts This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems. While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flyingà problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot. My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud? It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Jart	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:30:00 - [278] When the latest accusations where levelled at CCP, I thought about posting with a similar idea, but then thought that it would be too difficult for them to achieve. To be honest they have even gone further then I would have suggested, with the trips to Iceland involved. I think this shows how serious they are about their game and I applaud their bold initiative.
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:37:00 - [279] Originally by: AegriSomnia My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud? I do, and your understanding of the issue is flawed. We haven't had a black out since Enron went down =/= Enron was at fault for the blackouts. The energy situation today is very different than it was then. As are the laws. The State Government created the issues we experienced far more than Enron did. Enron may or may not have profited greatly from it all. Their financial records at the time indicated their profits remained fairly steady. Their financial records however are shall we say, suspect. Quote: It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it. Who do you hire to audit EVE? A firm like Price Waterhouse Coopers or KPMG doesn't exactly have experience with this kind of thing. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
Superbus Maximus Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:43:00 - [280] It seems like a good idea. If it happens or not remains to be seen. Has there been an announcement of how they are going to do the voting? Please do not edit moderator sig comments. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Habraka Canes Pugnaces	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:47:00 - [281] Originally by: Superbus Maximus It seems like a good idea. If it happens or not remains to be seen. Has there been an announcement of how they are going to do the voting? I just hope they aren't going to handle it like the Gallente elections.
Kraven Kor Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:51:00 - [282] Originally by: Ridley Tree Who do you hire to audit EVE? A firm like Price Waterhouse Coopers or KPMG doesn't exactly have experience with this kind of thing. I would imagine they could quickly learn and then do so professionally and within the scope of the requested investigation. The 9 players? Well, we have yet to see, don't we? Understand, though, CCP -- my account remains cancelled until the results of this "oversight committee." Simply announcing one does little. Using a professional auditing company would be acceptable as well, if not even more of an assurance. ----- You're not what you are, you're just what you do! So it ends with their butts and it starts with your shoe! - Awesome Car Fun Maker
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:52:00 - [283] Originally by: AegriSomnia Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: AegriSomnia My post full over very on topic and powerful thoughts This is the problem with the idea... You see, you blame Enron for problems that the State Government caused... People who did not know what they were doing made feel-good laws that caused the problems that led to the rolling blackouts... and they point fingers at Enron... Enron's misdeeds hurt a lot of people and did a lot of bad things, but not every power problem in the last 10 years was caused by Enron, or even Enron's fault. Had Enron been run all legally and above board, California would still have had problems. While I applaud the idea of a player based oversight group, I see it as a lose-lose thing for CCP, because things will be found lacking with everyone elected or selected to be part of it by people who are too busy looking for someone to blame. Suspicions and conspiracies will be flyingà problems, real or imagined will crop up and the forum warriors will be here to stir the pot. My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud? It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it. Yes, we do agree on the Audit part... California passed laws that limited the price that could be charged for electricity... but only to the end users... they passed laws that made almost impossible to build or mantain power production within the state... they did nothing to control the price that could be charged for electricity that the power providers had to buy to cover the growing need in California (because they could not)... hence the power providers went out of business/left the state... the blackouts stopped when the state removed the artifial cost limits and raised your prices to cover the cost of the power. Prior to that increase, you were paying far less for electricity then the rest of the country, less then the cost required to furnish that power... so power companies sold their power to those that were willing to pay for it. It just so happened that Enron crashed and burned around that same time, but it was California Laws that caused your problems... My living in Texas (not in California) has nothing to do with it... None of us is as dumb as all of us...
George Petsch Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:53:00 - [284] Originally by: veritas primus Originally by: Cipher7 People hate BoB for the same reason people hate USA. They are too strong and nobody can beat them. If you add a "player oversight process" they will simply accuse the process of being rigged. People accuse primarily to make themselves feel better, it is an ego booster to console themselves for losing. Ummm...no ppl hate Bob because they are successful and the vomit this in Eve's face with overwhelming arrogance. Then add in CCP allegations which most entities would keep it on the "down-low" but oh no....they run their mouths in local with MSN garbage, make posts about having strong relationships with Devs, name their ships with [DEVS] in the title, and it goes on...and on...and on...if I were CCP I would have gagged them long ago, and anyone else fueling this junk. But there again....CCP seems to embrace Bob, and Bob embraces back...and you wonder where the community draws their conclussions? LOL... It's called psycological warfare, however, at the expense of the game/ccp. But then again, the end justifies the means
Cosy Porandor	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:55:00 - [285] dear CCP where is your official post whit ? FIRST !!!! on MMORPG industry use h.264 code for your video and like that help eve-files
Da'iel Zehn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.07 19:56:00 - [286] The New York Times! Wow!
rolaand	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:00:00 - [287] Quote: In Eve, however, there is only one game world, and there are routinely 30,000 people within it at one time. And while a serious World of Warcraft guild might have 50 members, major alliances in Eve have thousands of members. just this lil quote from the article is enough for me to know the writer doesn't really know squat.
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:07:00 - [288] Originally by: AegriSomnia My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud? It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it. Your understanding is wrong, and by living in California your understanding of how politics work will be wrong by default :) California's biggest problem is that they refused to allow new powerplants to be built pretending to be green, and also grossly over payed. Its a big reason why you have the gonverantor right now instead what whatshisname. The funny thing about California was that some factories shut down and sold their alloted power back to the government since they made more money doing that than running their factories. It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller. And yes this has now taken on a massive tangent from the OP, but seems to somehow apply to how well such an audit system will work.
Jin So Gallente Red Mercury Industries	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:10:00 - [289] My only problem is that why did we have to find out about this by reading The New York Times? It makes sense to let your paid subscribers know before going public with something like that will have an impact on the community.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:13:00 - [290] Originally by: Herculite It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller. Yes it was. "Life is nothing but a competition to be the criminal rather than the victim." - Bertrand Russell
Habraka Canes Pugnaces	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:14:00 - [291] Originally by: Jin So My only problem is that why did we have to find out about this by reading The New York Times? It makes sense to let your paid subscribers know before going public with something like that will have an impact on the community. It's CCP we're talking about .
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:15:00 - [292] Originally by: Herculite Originally by: AegriSomnia My understanding of the issue is that because the California Government refused to allow Enron to charge Californians more money for the same service (just cause were californians), Enron made Californians pay for it by blacking us out. While I agree CA laws have a tendancy to stink, WE HAVENT HAD ONE BLACKOUT SINCE ENRON WENT DOWN. Do you even live in CA., Bud? It seems we agree however on the issue of the audit. CCP need to hire professionals to do it. Your understanding is wrong, and by living in California your understanding of how politics work will be wrong by default :) California's biggest problem is that they refused to allow new powerplants to be built pretending to be green, and also grossly over payed. Its a big reason why you have the gonverantor right now instead what whatshisname. The funny thing about California was that some factories shut down and sold their alloted power back to the government since they made more money doing that than running their factories. It was government missmanagment that caused California's problems, not Enron or any other energy reseller. And yes this has now taken on a massive tangent from the OP, but seems to somehow apply to how well such an audit system will work. Actually I do recall accusations at the time that Enron got a few powerplants to go into 'maintenance' i.e. shutdown to help fuel the shortage. Then, with lacking interstate transport capability and insufficient reserve capacity for the high demand, rolling blackouts ensued. But I admit I live about 10,000 miles away and my memory might be a bit foggy after all this time. As for the subject at hand . Ok, I can understand people still being sceptical. Of course, to some extent I am still sceptical as well. But at a certain point you have to be able to put your own scepticism aside, at least for a while and see how CCP handles it. Excessive naysaying before even the details of how they're gonna do it are known is a bit silly. You're accusing CCP of failing to do something properly which they have just announced, and are nowhere near implementation yet. Lets just see what they do, follow it critically (but with an open mind) and see if we like how it turns out. If we don't, the pitchforks are behind the barn, we can always go pick them up and storm the fortress again AFTER they screw it up ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:19:00 - [293] Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Vote for me!
Prof Weirdo	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:21:00 - [294] This looks like a PR move to me. If they had banned 5 or 6 accounts and fired a couple employees, I would say they were serious. I am not sure what good giving 9 people a guided tour of their offices with milk and cookies will do. These people would need to be in the software/management fields and familiar with CCP's procedures and software to do any good. Even then, they would need to stay there for extended time periods. The lengths they will go to to avoid the obvious solution(dev's and employees quit playing on Tranquility) is amazing. They are more addicted to this game than the Bob meta gamers who play 20 hours a day. Hmm...well they may be actually the same people.
Gavin Inzutaku EntroPraetorian WraithTemplars EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:24:00 - [295] Originally by: Sakura Nihil If we're going to do this democratically, one thing we need to keep in mind is that it will require regular, albeit infrequent, elections. This should not be a one-time "you're in forever" club, representatives will need to be held accountable for their oversight or lack thereof. If we don't realize this, we'll end up creating a new and familiar problem, the issue of credibility of an oversight group (this time Internal Affairs, next our representatives). Too much time spent with the organization you are supposed to be monitoring may increase your bias, so we need to keep them true with the possibility of them being replaced by us. With regards to the theory that each of the 9 largest alliances should be represented, I strongly disagree. As important as BoB, the Goons, RA, and everyone else up on the numbers list thinks the are, they're still only a fraction of EVE, the 0.0 territorialist alliances - a significant demographic? Yes, but a dominating one? No - I have no doubt that they will use their power bloc to get endorsed candidates elected, and that's fine, as it is one vote per account/owner and this is the concept of popular representation. But, your interests are only a part of EVE's population, and the rest of us should have a say of who goes on that council as we're paying customers. Did I just do a "No taxation without representation" thing? Lol, internet first ? /agreed --------------------------------------------------- Research and Development: Building a better world for a price.
zykerx Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:26:00 - [296] all pretty pointless except for the pr and for the 9 players that will have a free funn trip but trust wont get solved with this, its not like those players can see all info anyway . "MY COMMENTS IN NO WAY REFLECT MY CORP OR ALLIANCE"
pylons38 Aliastra	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:29:00 - [297] Edited by: pylons38 on 07/06/2007 20:28:42 Unless you know where to dig, you won't find anything that will prove that CCP is dirty. Simple as that. edit: spelling
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:34:00 - [298] Committee: A lifeform with 6 or more legs and no brain Robert A. Heinlein Quote: Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:37:00 - [299] A promising step forwards, but: What's to stop CCP from simply hiding any suspicious activity from their player base? Looking at the candidates for EON Awards, Eve is hardly a democracy of fully represented players. If anything, the candidates for this 'investigation' need to be completely neutral (no credit cards, addresses, account details; linking them to any potentially investigated players). I hope this is a positive step, but forgive me for not holding my breath. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:45:00 - [300] Well if nothing else this thread gave me a laugh. There's been no details released about how it's going to work, how people will be selected, what information they'll have access to or what their real remit will be.... and yet we've eleven pages already of people frothing at the mouth about it (not to mention getting onto Enron and powercuts in California) I think I'll just wait and see what happens. Blog
Lester Dean Gallente Vanguard Frontiers INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:49:00 - [301] Edited by: Lester Dean on 07/06/2007 20:48:16 Sounds useless and bob will prob spam and win and get even more insight into the game lol. But it really just sounds like a promotion for the newspaper the idea itself sounds rubbish in being acutally helpful or bringing back trust.
xStormwingx Caldari NCN Corp Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:51:00 - [302] there are, obviously, many things that have not been cleared up, and no solid evidence to support the usefulness of such an operation. Don't worry, those things will come along soon enough. I'm just sitting back and enjoying how Eve is getting advertised (as infinitely BETTER than WoW) in the most widely circulated newspaper in the United States. [;)] -------
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:53:00 - [303] Heh.. no matter what side your on. This is damn interesting. I hope a really fair to both sides of this 9 people are picked. I hope whoever is picked cares enough about their own intergrity not to taking any personal bias. Good move CCP. Im really impressed by your intiative at nipping this problem in the bud. Blizzard would say $%&&* you and have a nice day :)
Plaetean coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.06.07 20:54:00 - [304] Admirable and respectable move by CCP, I for one will be watching this very closely. -----
Lumy Eve University	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:04:00 - [305] Originally by: Blacklight Well if nothing else this thread gave me a laugh. There's been no details released about how it's going to work, how people will be selected, what information they'll have access to or what their real remit will be.... and yet we've eleven pages already of people frothing at the mouth about it (not to mention getting onto Enron and powercuts in California) I think I'll just wait and see what happens. I was jumping into assumptions right after I read the article and I was (and I am still) pretty skeptical about it. But you are right with this one. Almost none information was released yet, so it's wrong to make baseless speculations. I'm sure there will be Dev blog on the topic SoonÖ. We will see.
Trevedian Amarr KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:07:00 - [306] Great idea CCP, this is a clever and shrewd PR move to save the reputation of the game we all lub. Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
Morning Maniac Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:10:00 - [307] Good idea to increase the players' trust in CCP. I hope it will be executed well but we will just have to wait and see. Somehow I had to giggle when I visioned a full BoB delegation travelling to iceland to investigate Thumbs up to CCP for creative thinking and addressing issues. http://eve-ivy.com EVE University commercial
Groox Cult of War	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:14:00 - [308] Good move.
Fenris Wolfe Blazing Saddles	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:16:00 - [309] Eleven pages in... and probably 12 hours from now it will be twenty more (will the story even be in print yet?) There are a few things of note that i have seen/read/thought as I managed to get through these posts... Many posts reference: Let the (X number) largest alliances have a seat. Let anyone BUT the (X number) largest alliances have a seat Outside æprofessionalÆ oversight firm preference Kugo, Famous û10.0 sec personalities, and the occasional ôme too, which is better: the girls or the beer?ö (aside: heck, why not bring back m0o and have them do it? Cutthroat players = cutthroat oversight reps? /grin) Age, social/professional strata, education, experience, etcà Who votes? (Characters, accounts, billing addressesà note: option 3 may suxxoreally intensely for multi party house/apartments/dorm rooms/etc) If weÆre set to do this, then letÆs do this rightà and complete what the other 300+ posts are aiming towards. Measurable goals, defined actions, realistic results. How do we do this? LetÆs call it a æjob descriptionÆà eve-online via Monster-ish dot Com. (Hrmm.. can we add that one to the list of ôThings to update for Corporation Overhaul?ö kthnx) CCP Oversight Elective Location: CCP HQ (if you donÆt know where this is, please return to your game of Minesweeper/Solitare) Job level: Entry to Advanced û 0 to 10+ years experience Reports to: ôplayer-constituentsö per NY Times [BIG NOTE: define player-constituentsà Geographical? Political? IP Provider?] Education: Undetermined û Pending actual role of Oversight Elective Relocation Assistance: CCP flies you and houses you. Beer budget pending. Date posted: 6/7/07 Shift: GMT location. Shift preference pending jet lag recovery vs CCP staffing policy. Travel: Duh Compensation: Gradual increase in ETOH percentage potential Position Summary: Position is currently pending actual physical location and details. Oversight inquiry is/not limited in scope to _____ actions and ________ departments. Reporting policy for oversight action is as yet undetermined. Oversight Electives are to judge oversight and inquire about CCP actions individually/per consensus/to be determined. Constituents demographics/locations as yet have not been determined to be virtual, geographical, or virtual geographical (ie: EVE Constellations, Systems, Regions, etc.). Duration of term will be on both a voluntary basis AND duration based. CCP has yet to determine potential checks and balances to ensure Oversight Elective does not develop into ôWhimsical God Modeö or ôUnproductive Wide Eyed Tourist Modeö All oversight issues are both acted upon and taken as official advisement from 1st party/3rd party Oversight committee. Oversight issues will not and shall not infringe upon EULA and pending Non Disclosure agreements between CCP and Volunteer/Contract/Corporate staff [penalties to be detailed some other time by someone elseà soonÖ]. Part of this is wrote in parody, but read between the wiiiiiiiiiiiiiide lines: Potentially excellent plan of action. Now lets fill in some of the details. DonÆt fill the people before you fill the gaps. /me is looking forward to this
Sasakisan	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:17:00 - [310] Below is the definition of "ombudsman" as applied to EVE: -an individual who investigates and tries to resolve complaints and problems between customers and CCP. This seems like a full time, and not very pleasant, job for a bunch of people, and GMs, IA, and the CMs are doing it now. I don't know if its realistic to expect volunteers to do this job. With respect to the auditing, I favor giving the nine overseers a budget to hire a reputable professional auditor to conduct rigorous audits. I just don't think it is realistic for nine EVE players to carry out professional audits that will be perceived as being legitimate and impartial by the player base. I feel this way because of the time, expertise, and independence needed conduct a rigorous audit and because some of the players may have conflicts of interest. I wonder if anything short of banning CCP employees from playing on the live server is going to really restore trust and if CCP is in a bit of denial over this.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:22:00 - [311] Well, it's certainly cool in the "never been done" category. I'm not sure how practical it can be, no matter what approach they use. Sifting through logs or a db seems a bit unrealistic. Perhaps a player review of CCP's IA processes. We'll have to wait and see what they come up with. I do agree that a third party with professional auditing skills should probably be brought in to act as lead. Some adhoc thing will just be silly. But like Winterblink said, it's way too early to even debate it. ------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED
Barbarellas Daughter Lonely Barbarella	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:22:00 - [312] this brings meta gaming to a new level
Verone Gallente Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:28:00 - [313] Originally by: Blacklight I think I'll just wait and see what happens. Likewise, this thread is based entirely on assumptions. Nothing about how this is going to work has been said by CCP. I'd rather wait and see >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:31:00 - [314] Edited by: AegriSomnia on 07/06/2007 21:37:43 Originally by: Herculite Your understanding is wrong, and by living in California your understanding of how politics work will be wrong by default :) You are either sarcasically humerous or a complete dckhead. I still havent figured that out as it is more difficult to discern from the written word what ones emotions are. Originally by:* Hamfast My living in Texas (not in California) has nothing to do with it... It does in that you arent going to get the same quality of news coverage in another state. Your news outlets, and especially the national news, will report what they think is important, which is never the whole truth. Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance Terror In The System	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:35:00 - [315] That absolutely made my day. Only thing missing is a comment box below. That NYTimes column needs a whole bunch of EVE players writing 'Epic Post' attached to it. Cyth, The not-so-friendly Diplomatic Director DEFY =+=+=+=+=+=+= Originally by: Black Torment OH GOD, DROWNING IN TINFOIL
Voltaire Leriel Minmatar BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.07 21:37:00 - [316] Edited by: Voltaire Leriel on 07/06/2007 21:37:15 Originally by: FireFoxx80 What's to stop CCP from simply hiding any suspicious activity from their player base? You have to elect peopel with the social engineering skills to pry things out of EVE devs but you also have to elect people you trust not to gather information to cheat themselves. This is a hard combination to find. Some of the people mentioned are good spies and information gatherers, but can you trust them? This is why I nominate TornSoul. I am at this very moment trying to convince him to run. _________________________________________________________ BIG Corporation Website
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:00:00 - [317] Edited by: Verite Rendition on 07/06/2007 21:59:53 Originally by: Blacklight Well if nothing else this thread gave me a laugh. There's been no details released about how it's going to work, how people will be selected, what information they'll have access to or what their real remit will be.... and yet we've eleven pages already of people frothing at the mouth about it (not to mention getting onto Enron and powercuts in California) I think I'll just wait and see what happens. Something I have very quickly learned in this game is that when CCP announces something, expect them to screw it up in the most amazing way possible and you'll probably be right. It won't work well, the people selected will be a sham(See: E-ON awards), and the information they'll have access to won't include anything that matters. In short, these guys will be brought up to look at the offices, speak a few words with Kieron, and then post back "OMG CCP roxors!" I'd like for them to make a real effort out of this, but let's be honest: status quo right now is pretty damn good for CCP, why would they want to mess it up? PS TornSoul can be a member over my iced-over corpse. He's a liar and a cheat ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:02:00 - [318] This is a major step in the right direction for CCP.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:02:00 - [319] Originally by: AegriSomnia Originally by: Hamfast My living in Texas (not in California) has nothing to do with it... It does in that you arent going to get the same quality of news coverage in another state. Your news outlets, and especially the national news, will report what they think is important, which is never the whole truth. Now who is being sarcastic... Quality news coverage? Thanks to this wonderful thing called "The Internet" we all have access to information. We also get to see what others are saying, and you can bet the people in the Grayout Davis Administration was happy to tell every local news outlet where the problems are... and they were not going to point the fingers at themselves, they would pick some other target, Enron just happened to be a target of opertunity... it's called "Spin". By the way, this is why I agree with your view that the Outside Audit Firm would be better, odds are they would not be as easy to spin as the Players picked to do this audit. Tha Analogy is the Outside Audit Firm represents those that live outside of California, the players are those that live in California... (I had to tie this to the thread some how) None of us is as dumb as all of us...
Indomitus Rex Amarr H.Y.D.R.A. GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:03:00 - [320] Is it just me, or would have firing T20 and then actually coming up with a Code of Ethics/Code of Conduct policy instead of covering everything up saved us all a lot of trouble? Congrats to whichever bums actually go to Iceland. I'm sure they'll dump plenty of swag on you and get you plenty drunk. Hope your pride can take the hit tho, knowing that you'll be about as worthless as the U.N. inspectors were when S.H. was in power in Iraq. "So, Oveur, can I take a look at the dev logs and such for the past few days? Maybe go over the petition system and see how your GMs have been responding to different groups of players?" "Umm, well, you see, the problem is. . .hey!. . .look over here, we have some nice Icelandic. . .errrr. . .ice. Yeah! Come put your tongue on it and see if it sticks! Then we'll all take a group photo and go out to the pub!" Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
Demoser Caldari Cornerstone Unlimited The Foundation.	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:20:00 - [321] I really dont have much to say about any of the aligations or what should or should not have been done, but man, respect points for CCP making it into NYT, but man negative respect points for the NYT for covering MMO politics. At least this time they chose an MMO with class, unlike their multiple atricles on WoW this past year. Quote: Congrats. You showed those NPC'ers what PvP fitted nanowhoring ships can do!
NereSky Gallente ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:26:00 - [322] Well im stunned , its pleasing to see that CCP take the player base and their reputation seriously, ill eagerly wait for the details to be hammered out, and well done to CCP on this (if it happens)
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:29:00 - [323] sigh.... lets praise eve for all the good and cast a shadow over all the bad :S they seem to be using more time hugging each others behind then fixing the game...
Serenity Steele Rearden Steele	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:40:00 - [324] Seeing is believing. Let's see the in-game post first before getting too serious about it. A professional company managing professional PR at the moment. Let's see how that professionalism translates into timely implementation. I'd be happy to Audit their activities. Eve Strategic Maps - Outpost Alert - Sovereign Systems - Alliance Rank
DeckardIRL Setenta Corp Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:43:00 - [325] Why is the first we have heard of this a newspaper report and not an announcement by CCP to the community... Deck _____________________________________________ Xelas Fleet Admiral
CrestoftheStars Perkone	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:43:00 - [326] i just wonder WHO is these people that will wote for the players comming?.. can any one say bob+pets;) they might as well have a dictator it is excatly the same in the end... this is soo weak, hiding behind the terms of democracy, looks more like an idea taken out off main kampf ;) peace out ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:51:00 - [327] so now the election is rigged, populated with bob fanbois etc? jeeez you people are pathetic, really you are. Go and play something else, like runescape (average age 13, somewhat like the amount of your braincells) but stop coming here with your false accusations and bulls**t lies. I dont like bob and the beauty of the game is that i dont have to. They want to have all of 0.0 space, well im willing to fight them for it I think the major fault in goonswarms accusations can be found with this signature, now popular with many players who support this crap:: Statement on dev misconduct: for the record, Darkstar1 has 3 pos in game only, both are and have always worked fine 3 pos? both are fine? .... what about the 3rd then? Bleedin muppets. ----------------------------------------------- perhaps you confused me with someone who actually gives a funk?
Gorion Wassenar Caldari Tsurokigaarai APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.07 22:56:00 - [328] I look forward to more information being released as I find this idea very interesting. ----- results may vary
Aramark Omega Enterprises Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:01:00 - [329] members have been picked: Galavet Blacklight SirMolle Cell Satimo Tholarim TWD --------------------------------------------------- Originally by: Dianabolic We have a "special" line (if you want to call msn that) to our FRIENDS.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:16:00 - [330] Originally by: Aramark members have been picked: Galavet Blacklight SirMolle Cell Satimo Tholarim TWD All Lunas's alts, so everything's cool. j/k breathe people, don't assume, don't presume, we have to wait for details. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:20:00 - [331] May be cool for those 9 people to visit CCP... but what purpose does that really serve? Or do they get to see which developer is playing what characters in the game. Sounds more like an open door day - and when we have one of those you don't see us playing EVE in the office either :P Ceterum censeo 'Concordia' esse delendam.
Coran Ordus Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:25:00 - [332] Originally by: Tharrn May be cool for those 9 people to visit CCP... but what purpose does that really serve? Or do they get to see which developer is playing what characters in the game. Sounds more like an open door day - and when we have one of those you don't see us playing EVE in the office either :P I assume the idea is that they're not touring the labs and going 'oo', but saying 'What does an audit trail on a petition look like?' and 'Okay, go insert something into the database, and show me how that's supposed to be caught'. They're basically elected auditors. Which makes me wonder if they'll be qualified, in some respects. I'd think you'd want to lean towards people with a knowledge of computer science, who are aware of vulnerabilities and ways around things. (And also who will understand when things are not possible/feasible without lengthy explainations and analogies.)
Kredan Rasok	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:27:00 - [333] two simple rules should apply to candidates (1) NOT currently a member of any alliance regardless of size. (2) NO forum celebrities. (Dark Shikari, Winterblink etc)
Tharrn Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:29:00 - [334] Originally by: Coran Ordus I assume the idea is that they're not touring the labs and going 'oo', but saying 'What does an audit trail on a petition look like?' and 'Okay, go insert something into the database, and show me how that's supposed to be caught'. Guess I wouldn't be qualified then as I'd rather like to see the goodies and go 'Oooh'. :P Ceterum censeo 'Concordia' esse delendam.
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:32:00 - [335] Originally by: Blacklight Well if nothing else this thread gave me a laugh. There's been no details released about how it's going to work, how people will be selected, what information they'll have access to or what their real remit will be.... and yet we've eleven pages already of people frothing at the mouth about it (not to mention getting onto Enron and powercuts in California) I think I'll just wait and see what happens. It took eleven pages to get a sensible post... and guess who made it?
Dasani Waters Cadence.	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:36:00 - [336] Originally by: Lord Seth Edited by: Lord Seth on 07/06/2007 07:28:09 Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! OK DUDE!!! lol Why do ppl have ISO audits? To make the public happy, right? Why make the public happy? Cause when your ISO you can go public with confidence. (by public Im talking about stock market) Now CCP is doing the same thing a public company would do to make their stocks strong except its not the stock holders you need to make happy its the ppl that play your game. I cant believe CCP tolerates ppl like yourself attacking them like this your statements are RUDE AND UNCALLED FOR!!! I'm glad CCP respects and tolerates all customers including you, me, and illusha. If CCP banned everyone who questioned their words and actions, EVE would lose the diversity of its player group and it would slowly die. In fact, if CCP took that attitude, they would never have allowed themselves to be audited by a bunch of potentially hostile players. So thank CCP for being concerned with pleasing ALL their customers.
Gorken Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:38:00 - [337] I know that I've been fussy about the allegations for the few times I have posted, but I will admitt that I cannot willingly stop playing this game no matter how hard I try. Yes, this article is very relieving and takes away some of the animosity, however I would still play even if these new statements were never made. Happy trails....
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:50:00 - [338] Originally by: Kredan Rasok two simple rules should apply to candidates (1) NOT currently a member of any alliance regardless of size. (2) NO forum celebrities. (Dark Shikari, Winterblink etc) Well that rules out almost anyone with any knowledge of the subject. -23 Member- EVE Video makers: save Chribba bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Nai Ling Amarr Middle Finger Technology Ghosts Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.07 23:50:00 - [339] Edited by: Nai Ling on 07/06/2007 23:50:36 Sweet... I pick: Sir Molle Blacklight DBP Orange Species Helen INZI !! and various key members of Red Alliance. And in light of current events, whereas Helen was ousted as a BoB infiltrator, that would mean that any subject would go in BoB's (and therefore CCP's) favor. _______________________________________________
Mud Pandemonium Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:06:00 - [340] This is either pure stupidity or sheer genius.
Serendipity007 Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:08:00 - [341] I hate to bring up the Iraq thing again, but maybe something might be learned from that. The players won't accept anything unless they have a hand in it. I'm sure everyone can agree that if CCP makes the voting rules, a majority of players will think its rigged. What needs to happen is an EvE Player Constitutional Committee. Each of the major alliances, as well as the larger empire corps should each elect a delegate to this committee. For it to be relevant, any major group in EvE needs representation on this committee. Sure, it will be hundreds of players, but it will go a long way in addressing issues of bias. This Constitutional Committee will draft an EvE Player Constitution, and it must be voted in with a 3/4 majority. CCP will obviously have some say in this process, but CCP must abide by what the players ultimately decide, or the whole damn thing is pointless anyways. This EvE Player Constitution will outline with great detail, who is eligible to run, how long people will serve, and any other relevant details. Once the Constitutional Committee ratifies a Constitution, it shall be posted for all players to see. After a period of time to be determined by the committee, a vote of the entire player base will be taken for or against the proposed constitution. If it passes, this Constitution will be the guiding document for player representatives; if it is rejected, the Committee is dissolved and the process starts from scratch. This, or a similar method, is the only way for CCP's statement to have any meaning whatsoever. CCP has stated that they want to earn our trust back, and using a system such as this would go a long way to restoring that trust. I applaud CCP for trying to be different in the MMO community, but I think I speak for most everyone here: double-cross your community, and... well you get the idea. ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: TOS
Third Down Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:11:00 - [342] Originally by: Gariuys Originally by: Blacklight Well if nothing else this thread gave me a laugh. There's been no details released about how it's going to work, how people will be selected, what information they'll have access to or what their real remit will be.... and yet we've eleven pages already of people frothing at the mouth about it (not to mention getting onto Enron and powercuts in California) I think I'll just wait and see what happens. It took eleven pages to get a sensible post... and guess who made it? Erm, actually, if we just "wait and see what happens" then CCP would never have been forced to this juncture, t20 would never have been outed, etc. etc.
Voltron Caldari STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:18:00 - [343] Bravo CCP. When the first story from CCP broke about the BOB-T20 BPO incident the main thing I was concerned with was transparency. Basically, "why should I believe you when you're admitting to this and you're telling me that". With the creation of an internal affairs dept there was still little to no perceived transparency in my eyes as the audit process was completely in house. Had there been a pre-exising internal audit department then the perception of their findings likely would have been quite different. This is a huge move, and one that has regained my trust in the company and the game to be quite honest. I would have been happy seeing an external company brought in to do said audits and reports, however, involving the player base like this is a great step towards rebuilding the credibility and trust that CCP has lost in the past months. My only hope now is that the elections are more about qualifications than a popularity contest. All I'm saying here is that I hope the 9 individuals elected actually take the responsibility seriously. However the onus to ensure that is on us the player base and not CCP. Cheers, Volt It's great touching your own dink isn't it? "Droog812 > normally id care if it was a logon trap - but considering bobs history of taking down super caps, i dont care how it died"
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:29:00 - [344] Featured in the New York Times, I bet Molle wish he'd come up with a less *** name for himself now. Also Known As
Mistress Suffering Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:38:00 - [345] Look at it as an opportunity for a relatively diverse group of people to go take a look at the CCP process and discuss it with the developers. No, it may not "uncover rampant corruption", but then I can't honestly think many people figure there's some CCP-wide conspiracy to rig things for one group. If there are issues, they're much more likely to be in bad developer-public relations process and seperation of powers/duties. CCP can both discuss this and consider changes to it under such a scenario. At worst you generate no action and its a net zero other than a few guys ogling the CCP facilities, but much more likely, you pick some sharp folks and CCP gets a chance to consider some ideas and sa***uards. Of course, public elections are a dubious process, so I assume we'll just send a few celebrities, but the thought was nice anyways.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.06.08 00:38:00 - [346] I think this is a very interesting and groundbreaking move by CCP. It certainly has the potential to address the current perception issues, and like many previous posters in this thread have said - it is perception that matters. I only hope it is executed in such a way that the comittee is indeed able to convince the playerbase as a whole of their findings. I look forward to finding out the details of exactly how this will be done. Innovative as always, CCP! Thats why we <3 you! -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Karasuma Akane Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:26:00 - [347] Originally by: RossP Zoyka Wow, that's a really cool article. Its in the NY Times itself? Or just online? I hope its in the paper because that's like insane EVE publicity. It's on the front page (right column) of the Arts (B) section, and continues on page B7 inside. I'm pleasantly shocked that Hilmar finally acknowledged CCP's need for transparency and oversight, after trying to keep their policies and procedures for dealing with in-house cheating and corruption secret for so long. (I'm still looking for a CCP Code Of Conduct outlining the rules and limits applied to employee personal accounts to be publicly posted though.) Hopefully this is a true change of heart and not a PR stunt. Originally by: Karl Bohm In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll admit I am posting in my alt's ID -- I've some 3 decades of experience regarding independent oversight. I'm a USA Federal Government enforcement lawyer. I spend my days at Agency HQ advising policymakers, top political management, and career operational chiefs on how to provide independent regulatory oversight of the US Dept of Defense. I've made a career of some 35 years on that proposition in order to achieve and ensure public health and safety -- if CCP does it right, they will regain and maintain the confidence of players. I know I've done pretty well towards that end in my own work. I nominate your main to be one of the Tribunes. ----- The possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:27:00 - [348] Originally by: Serendipity007 Stuff about committees and constitutions and... stuff Have you ever read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinline?
Fabrice Enchante Gallente Active Measures	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:45:00 - [349] Vote for me and I'll set you free. ================<ACTME>======================= Solutions to problems require Active Measures.
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:48:00 - [350] perception is everything. Lets hope they get it right
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:52:00 - [351] tbh spending several days a year looking at spreadsheets n geeks working on computers doesnt really sound like something to be paticularly excited about being elected to do. Watching ppl play EVE is boring enough. Watching the day to day running n making of it sounds awful. A proper auditing company would be better. & frankly it would look more professional & the results more substantial coming from a hired auditing company then some gamers getting a free trip to Reykjavik. That said its nice to see CCP taking steps to make their operation seem more transparent & restore confidense anoumg the playerbase...as gimmiky as elected gamers sounds .
Sagona Pasinia	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:56:00 - [352] Originally by: Sakura Nihil If we're going to do this democratically, one thing we need to keep in mind is that it will require regular, albeit infrequent, elections. This should not be a one-time "you're in forever" club, representatives will need to be held accountable for their oversight or lack thereof. If we don't realize this, we'll end up creating a new and familiar problem, the issue of credibility of an oversight group (this time Internal Affairs, next our representatives). Too much time spent with the organization you are supposed to be monitoring may increase your bias, so we need to keep them true with the possibility of them being replaced by us. With regards to the theory that each of the 9 largest alliances should be represented, I strongly disagree. As important as BoB, the Goons, RA, and everyone else up on the numbers list thinks the are, they're still only a fraction of EVE, the 0.0 territorialist alliances - a significant demographic? Yes, but a dominating one? No - I have no doubt that they will use their power bloc to get endorsed candidates elected, and that's fine, as it is one vote per account/owner and this is the concept of popular representation. But, your interests are only a part of EVE's population, and the rest of us should have a say of who goes on that council as we're paying customers. Did I just do a "No taxation without representation" thing? Lol, internet first ? That is essentially what I was going to say. Hear hear! Oh and as a player who is not in any major alliance let me throw my hat in for the free trips to Iceland. Did I mention I'm a computer security and social engineering guru? Well you can't blame a guy for trying!
Kodiak31415 An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:57:00 - [353] Wow, sounds like CCP auctually gets it! Although I'm slightly puzzled as to why they decided to announce this via a newspaper first rather than direct to their customers. Nice to see eve getting some attention in the media. P.S. How exactly does Molle(bob) plan on conquering empire after the pvtrs nerf? Suicide gank...a lot? _______________________________ Pleese exucse any seplling erorr's in tihs psot
Tranca Phoenix Propulsion Labs	Posted - 2007.06.08 01:59:00 - [354] You know what i find VERY disparaging about this whole post and the attitudes of peolpe here... That about 85-90% of the people shooting down the whole thing and/or are talking $hit about "certain people...and names" are the ones losing the war in game. I dont know about anyone else but i find that more than a little coincedental.....I really wish that if they don't like losing you either fight harder or go find an easier game to play and leave us be with all the GODDAMNED incessant whining and bickering. You started a fight in game and talked day and night about how you were bad=a$$ and would kill BOB and the "pets". Well, from where I sit and just about everyone else now, YOU are the ones getting killed and now you and your your few allies left have started and tried a smear capign against CCP becasue you are losing. If I were CCP, i would give all of you a 7 day notice that if you dont like it, you can leave or have your accounts flat-out deleted. When push came to shove we saw- per the goon spammage who were the REAL men and who who the little brats who tried to throw a temper-tantrum to get their way and create a foul stench of what is a good game and a good company.
Gort Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:14:00 - [355] You, sir, are an idiot. -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Orgs Amarr Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:19:00 - [356] Edited by: Orgs on 08/06/2007 02:18:13 Well Tranca you are a complete and utter douchebag. As they say "how do you spell CCP......BoB. Things need to be addressed and you are worried because you are all guilty of "help" and of course you want nothing to change, but no game balance..no game. So just tuck your tail in and STFU and lets see how the "council" and CCP deal with this. Either the game fixes its problems or tons of people leave. [URL=http://imageshack.us][/URL]
BCE 3AHRTO Free Space Pilots aka Banderlogs Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:25:00 - [357] What would be hilarious, is if the 9 people are elected and several of them end up being alts of the same human player... does that person than get to take their significant other and/or friends for free as well? p.s. Nate Hammertown better be on this panel, or else! ------------------------------------------------------------------ "Red Alliance is dead. It's official." ¬ Lotka Volterra
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:31:00 - [358] First up we really don't know the full deal yet. Odd that CCP have not posted anything in their own news or forums yet. Secondly, I must agree to an extent with people calling for established 3rd party auditors. Seriously, a lot of the players in this game wouldn't have a clue where to start with a serious audit let alone how to do so in a fair and unbiased manner. That said, there is a place for player representation in an audit process. An external 3rd party would not be aware of the concerns of the players and what it is that really needs to be addressed. So by all means include player representatives in the process but please ensure that is is directed by professionals who know what the hell they are doing. Another thing that people seem to be jumping on is the belief that these auditors will be trawling through logs looking for evidence. I certainly hope that will NOT be the case and I doubt it will be due to privacy concerns. What these people should be looking at are processes and systems. Are the processes suitable, is there any loop holes, are the processes being followed, are the systems there to support these processes and so on. That is what this type of audit is all about, they are not witch hunts. If there is any flaws in the processes identified by the audits, then you can use that information to start looking for fraudulent activity. As a matter of fact fraud investigations are often undertaken in the guise of process reviews as it's an excellent method of collecting data and finding loopholes and then targeting those loopholes. It's amazing how many people happily assist in finding the rope with which they are subsequently hung
Ashis Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.06.08 02:59:00 - [359] Edited by: Ashis on 08/06/2007 03:00:48 A very commendable commitment and first step. However, nothing is gained by this until it is properly, and transparently executed. Nothing is gained -- except for the first time I feel hopeful that there may be a path to get things back on track. Albeit a long and difficult one with many logistical problems to be overcome (already being pointed out in this thread, and many many more not even thought of yet). Still, there is hope. Thank you Hilmar.
Serendipity007 Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:02:00 - [360] Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Serendipity007 Stuff about committees and constitutions and... stuff Have you ever read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinline? No, should I have? Could you briefly explain the book? ___________________________________________________ "I'm an engineer, not a miracle worker!" - Scotty, Star Trek: TOS
Hammer Judge Gallente Southern Cross Incorporated Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:04:00 - [361] This is an incredible initiative. - My newbie guide for experienced MMO gamers.
Taikun Brunel Gallente Evolved Gamer Zzz	Posted - 2007.06.08 03:40:00 - [362] Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Because CCP experiement with democracy in these forums have worked so very well. This will be nothing but a poularity content with representatives of the largest alliances having a voice. Accordingly issues raised will be relevent to their interests and needs. Sounds like nothing more than media spin pandering to the liberal readers of ther NY Times. I was surprised not to read it was George Bush's fault for lag. Innovative, no. Been done before in many games. Everquest had class representatives put forward by their respective communities to organise information and top 10 issues list. Didn't work for them, but CCP thinks this is new and different? Why? Because the dullards who play this game are somehow more mature and sophisticated than those of other MMORPGs?? Give me a break. Don't get sucked in by media hype and experience the tiny buzz but empty existance that level of thinking brings.
Thesas Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2007.06.08 04:34:00 - [363] The NYT placing this story under the ôartsö should indicate the nature of this effort. Theater is a useful public relations tool and this smells quite like professional PR. It is an ingenious idea and Mr. Petursson is quite clever. To counter the negative drama will of course require positive drama to encompass and build upon it. The New York Times article combined with advertising and a dash of PR is an excellent means to draw attention to Eve.. Good show. The elections are a novel twist but I hope CCP recognizes the fine line they walk in an effort like this. If this elected group is not widely viewed as above reproach, it will create more negative drama and press than good. The professionalism and ability of elected gamers will be at issue as this effort moves forward. I would hope that a few credible experts will be in that mix as well, or the results will be meaningless. In my mind, there is but one thing that matters, and that is what has kept me on the fence waiting to decide on continuing this game. This theater will not distract many from what they require to continue in Eve. I suspect that I am not alone in my desire to see a basic policy defined that insures the integrity and fairness of this game. The present status quo and perception of favoritism is quite damning to this game. At the end of this theater, that is what is going to matter to this one customer. Delving into past circumstances and allegations are futile, and irrelevant to the people who simply want to know that regardless of what has happened before, what happens henceforth shall be equitable to all concerned. A good show to be sure, but we shall see what the reviews say afterwards.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 04:59:00 - [364] Please get it right. Its the new york slimes. I hate this paper it is rife with bias it never prints the whole truth and it has let its people get away with degrading the term journalist time and time again. It was this newspaper among others that made sure i NEVER got into that field i couldnt take that kind of self abuse. Journalists these days have no balls no guts and care only about what their bosses tell them to care about. I honestly dont care what this article says and i likely wont read it. From what i have read in this thread something might happen. But the fact is unless CCP comes out publicly and says its going to there is no way you can confirm jack. Leave it be and consider the damned sources.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:00:00 - [365] Originally by: Kuseka Adama Please get it right. Its the new york slimes. I hate this paper it is rife with bias it never prints the whole truth and it has let its people get away with degrading the term journalist time and time again. It was this newspaper among others that made sure i NEVER got into that field i couldnt take that kind of self abuse. Journalists these days have no balls no guts and care only about what their bosses tell them to care about. I honestly dont care what this article says and i likely wont read it. From what i have read in this thread something might happen. But the fact is unless CCP comes out publicly and says its going to there is no way you can confirm jack. Leave it be and consider the damned sources. Troll much? -23 Member- EVE Video makers: save Chribba bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:09:00 - [366] As a newspaper that is looked at by non gamers it show them some of the coolest aspects of EVE like the one world and how important it is. And how EVE smaller then the WoW MMO has even much larger Alliances. Your average person out there is going to be wowed but in an EVE sort of way. P.S. WoW being the largest still does not compare to EVE for these reasons. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Phoebus Athenian Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:14:00 - [367] Applauds Yes, you've done it! Transparency is the way, and... wow I'm amazed that you're actually listening to your community. Two thumbs up... I'm looking forward to hearing from this democratic effort. ---
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:18:00 - [368] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Kuseka Adama Please get it right. Its the new york slimes. I hate this paper it is rife with bias it never prints the whole truth and it has let its people get away with degrading the term journalist time and time again. It was this newspaper among others that made sure i NEVER got into that field i couldnt take that kind of self abuse. Journalists these days have no balls no guts and care only about what their bosses tell them to care about. I honestly dont care what this article says and i likely wont read it. From what i have read in this thread something might happen. But the fact is unless CCP comes out publicly and says its going to there is no way you can confirm jack. Leave it be and consider the damned sources. Troll much? actually no. I have a particular dislike for this newspaper and its affiliates due to recent incidents and the general degredation of a once honorable profession. Of which they had a key hand. To see it lauded about with such authority as if it actually means something annoys me. The NYT is quickly becoming irrelevent. All i am saying is consider the source of this article before believing its validity.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:24:00 - [369] Edited by: FarScape III on 08/06/2007 05:22:53 Originally by: Kuseka Adama Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Kuseka Adama Please get it right. Its the new york slimes. I hate this paper it is rife with bias it never prints the whole truth and it has let its people get away with degrading the term journalist time and time again. It was this newspaper among others that made sure i NEVER got into that field i couldnt take that kind of self abuse. Journalists these days have no balls no guts and care only about what their bosses tell them to care about. I honestly dont care what this article says and i likely wont read it. From what i have read in this thread something might happen. But the fact is unless CCP comes out publicly and says its going to there is no way you can confirm jack. Leave it be and consider the damned sources. Troll much? actually no. I have a particular dislike for this newspaper and its affiliates due to recent incidents and the general degredation of a once honorable profession. Of which they had a key hand. To see it lauded about with such authority as if it actually means something annoys me. The NYT is quickly becoming irrelevent. All i am saying is consider the source of this article before believing its validity. You do not like the paper so you do not read it, cool No problem. Then do not read it, especialy since you're in a free country and will not get killed for not reading it. I have no love for the NY times either but the story is a good one IMO. A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Taikun Brunel Gallente Evolved Gamer Zzz	Posted - 2007.06.08 05:29:00 - [370] Originally by: Phoebus Athenian Applauds Yes, you've done it! Transparency is the way, and... wow I'm amazed that you're actually listening to your community. Two thumbs up... I'm looking forward to hearing from this democratic effort. See above for definition of a kool-aid drinker.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:04:00 - [371] "The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents." Honestly, holy crap who could DO that regularily?? Am I the only relatively poor guy in this game? The only guy that has a normal job? I damn sure couldnt take that kinda time off on a regular basis. I only get 2 weeks every 6 MONTHS to take off in Vaca time - an thats UNPAID BTW Yeah, they pay you but are they gonna find a new job for you when you get back? Cause flying to Iceland more than once in six months is gonna cost me my current one... Fine... Ill play nice
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:06:00 - [372] After reading the NY timeÆs article I get this gist... BoB wants to take over the entire EVE galaxy? Why? Sounds boring :) They sound like that one thing in Star Wars, "The Empire" You join them out of necessity but you're not really free. Are they like that though? IÆm not sure. If they are really good, then it sounds like it is just some governing force, boring ustelling us what to do and were to go. I'm not saying I'm right or want to join the rebellion or anything, it just reminds me of the Empire, kinda funny I think. is 0.0 really 0.0 if it is controlled? A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:07:00 - [373] Edited by: Seth Enkar on 08/06/2007 06:12:07 Elections? Oversight Committee? What a crock of **. I agree it's a good idea, but there's NO way that the representatives are going to be truly representative of everyone in eve unless certain sa*uards are put in place. hell, i'd go so far as to say that given the sheer SIZE of the voting block that BoB, Goonswarm, and the other big alliances control, most, if not all of these "Oversight Representatives" will be chosen by these big alliances. i personally think the big alliances should be barred from having any of their people anywhere near this. This way, it's guaranteed that you get a committee of the people, for the people. Like most everyone else in this thread, i'd love like hell to get nominated.
Hitake Kakshi	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:10:00 - [374] Edited by: Hitake Kakshi on 08/06/2007 06:09:57 never mind.
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:13:00 - [375] Originally by: Richard Aiel "The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents." Honestly, holy crap who could DO that regularily?? Am I the only relatively poor guy in this game? The only guy that has a normal job? I damn sure couldnt take that kinda time off on a regular basis. I only get 2 weeks every 6 MONTHS to take off in Vaca time - an thats UNPAID BTW Yeah, they pay you but are they gonna find a new job for you when you get back? Cause flying to Iceland more than once in six months is gonna cost me my current one... lol i'm terribly poor. i'm fairly certain you make more than me, and i don't even know wtf you do. But even though i am perpetually broke, If elected to a position like this, i'd take time off (hell, make the time even) to go do this. It'd be not only cool as hell, but it's a good thing to do. Stuff like this is a calling.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:15:00 - [376] On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months.
Hitake Kakshi	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:17:00 - [377] Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Now are you talking one alliance rep in ADDITION to the 9 chosen, or are you suggesting that they be part of the 9 chosen?..i mean how many alliances are there? that's a pretty tall order.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:21:00 - [378] Originally by: Hitake Kakshi Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Now are you talking one alliance rep in ADDITION to the 9 chosen, or are you suggesting that they be part of the 9 chosen?..i mean how many alliances are there? that's a pretty tall order. No flat out remove the nine chosen and give every alliance one voice. Otherwise its going to be exactly as predicted by others goonswarm and bob and all the other massive alliances will have their own slots and none of the lesser alliances/single corps will have a say at all. There is a significant problem with what is being requested here the: fact that so many are consolidated. It is likely that alliances like roadkill Red alliance BoB Goonswarm and others with over 1500 players would flat out DOMINATE any serious vote taking through either intmidiation or flat out having more people than the others. This has to be addressed before this vote can take place.
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:35:00 - [379] Originally by: Kuseka Adama Originally by: Hitake Kakshi Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Now are you talking one alliance rep in ADDITION to the 9 chosen, or are you suggesting that they be part of the 9 chosen?..i mean how many alliances are there? that's a pretty tall order. No flat out remove the nine chosen and give every alliance one voice. Otherwise its going to be exactly as predicted by others goonswarm and bob and all the other massive alliances will have their own slots and none of the lesser alliances/single corps will have a say at all. There is a significant problem with what is being requested here the: fact that so many are consolidated. It is likely that alliances like roadkill Red alliance BoB Goonswarm and others with over 1500 players would flat out DOMINATE any serious vote taking through either intmidiation or flat out having more people than the others. This has to be addressed before this vote can take place. I completely agree with most of that (i'm kakshi by the way, my default character setting was messed up), which is why i suggested that the alliances specifically be barred from having representatives. The logistics of sending THAT many people to iceland on a regular basis MUST be considered. 9 is a good number. they should all be duly elected representatives of the player base, NOT of the alliances.
FarScape III	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:43:00 - [380] Edited by: FarScape III on 08/06/2007 06:43:57 Originally by: Kuseka Adama Originally by: Hitake Kakshi Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Now are you talking one alliance rep in ADDITION to the 9 chosen, or are you suggesting that they be part of the 9 chosen?..i mean how many alliances are there? that's a pretty tall order. No flat out remove the nine chosen and give every alliance one voice. Otherwise its going to be exactly as predicted by others goonswarm and bob and all the other massive alliances will have their own slots and none of the lesser alliances/single corps will have a say at all. There is a significant problem with what is being requested here the: fact that so many are consolidated. It is likely that alliances like roadkill Red alliance BoB Goonswarm and others with over 1500 players would flat out DOMINATE any serious vote taking through either intmidiation or flat out having more people than the others. This has to be addressed before this vote can take place. good points, reminds me of how they elect those people that are on that one thing that over sees the earth. What are they called? hold on going to google........ Nope can find it that way going to Wikipedia.. Got it! United Nations A Minmater City... Cool! My Stats :)
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:47:00 - [381] Originally by: Seth Enkar I completely agree with most of that (i'm kakshi by the way, my default character setting was messed up), which is why i suggested that the alliances specifically be barred from having representatives. The logistics of sending THAT many people to iceland on a regular basis MUST be considered. 9 is a good number. they should all be duly elected representatives of the player base, NOT of the alliances. I cant agree completely. The alliances have players too. The fact is we are looking at forming one ourselves. Nothing is set in stone yet but we would then be among the 'not allowed' even if we are small. The problem i have with this is making sure everyone is fairly elected. I would set it up like this: 4 reps MUST come from non aligned corps: (THEY COULD NOT BE NPC CORPS) 4 reps MUST come from alliances. Two codicils You must of been part of a non aligned corp for...call it 6 months before the vote is called. THE CORP MUST ALSO OF BEEN NON ALIGNED FOR THAT AMOUNT OF TIME! (this refers to nominations) The same would work for alliances. Everyone could vote but not everyone could be nominated. But each faction would then vote for its own candidates Bob would be excluded from nominations for VERY obvious reasons. Though they should be allowed to vote The same circumstances could well apply to goon swarm or any alliance above 2500 really. This then leaves a voting base (based on numbers) that honestly could be swayed. the 9th and final slot i would put up to a FULL voting of the eve playerbase. About the best way you could do it imo.
Kuseka Adama Gallente WOLFPACK DELTA	Posted - 2007.06.08 06:48:00 - [382] Originally by: FarScape III Edited by: FarScape III on 08/06/2007 06:45:48 Edited by: FarScape III on 08/06/2007 06:43:57 Originally by: Kuseka Adama Originally by: Hitake Kakshi Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Now are you talking one alliance rep in ADDITION to the 9 chosen, or are you suggesting that they be part of the 9 chosen?..i mean how many alliances are there? that's a pretty tall order. No flat out remove the nine chosen and give every alliance one voice. Otherwise its going to be exactly as predicted by others goonswarm and bob and all the other massive alliances will have their own slots and none of the lesser alliances/single corps will have a say at all. There is a significant problem with what is being requested here the: fact that so many are consolidated. It is likely that alliances like roadkill Red alliance BoB Goonswarm and others with over 1500 players would flat out DOMINATE any serious vote taking through either intmidiation or flat out having more people than the others. This has to be addressed before this vote can take place. good points, reminds me of how they elect those people that are on that one thing that over sees the earth. What are they called? hold on going to google........ Nope can't find it that way going to Wikipedia.. Got it! United Nations So yeah, that is ok, maybe CCP will do something like that, I bet there will be a huge debate. I must admit you have me there and i am no friend of the U.N. But i am more concerned with rigged results than i am with the potential chaos of my original idea. This has to be as clean as an operating room and as fair as king solomon an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TASK even in the best circumstances.
Max Godsnottlingson Amarr Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:00:00 - [383] No matter if you agree with this idea or not, it strikes me that this is either a very brave idea, or very stupid idea on the part of CCP. If it is implemented, but then not seen by the majority of the player base to be 100% above board and honest it will simply feed the fires started by the conspiracy theorists and could even hurt Eve badly if it convinces enough players that it is just a sham used by CCP as a cover for underhand practices. Don't get me wrong. I personnaly think it's a brilliant idea, but one that poses a lot of dangers, and would hate to see people leaving in droves beacuse it wasn't implemented right and it's all blown up in CCP's face
Max Godsnottlingson Amarr Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:04:00 - [384] Originally by: Kuseka Adama On a more serious note i would suggest that if this actually happens that each alliance get ONE rep. Period end of story. Alliance leadership gets to choose who. If there is any intimidation on by any alliance to another that alliance loses its slot in this potential group for a period of no less than three months. Not a bad idea, but how would you ensure that all the players who are not in an alliance, or in an allaince deemed too small to be worthy of having a rep gets clear reprosentation? The one group that is probably still the largest group by far too
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:07:00 - [385] sirmolles ego must be growing by the day
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:14:00 - [386] Originally by: Taikun Brunel Originally by: Phoebus Athenian Applauds Yes, you've done it! Transparency is the way, and... wow I'm amazed that you're actually listening to your community. Two thumbs up... I'm looking forward to hearing from this democratic effort. See above for definition of a kool-aid drinker. Someone got out of the bed on wrong side of the bed? both you posts have been cynical looks like you will never be satisfied, if you dont like it here stf off!! CCP I was honestly pleasantly suprised by this article, I hope this is a sincere gesture from CCP and that it improves CCP's image, btw nice free advertising in the New york times. Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
Sartaron Amarr Quantar Swords SynchronizerZ	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:20:00 - [387] RL persons should be elected. Not "Characters". It is about auditing a company and its processes. Customers elect auditors.
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:25:00 - [388] Originally by: Kuseka Adama Originally by: Seth Enkar I completely agree with most of that (i'm kakshi by the way, my default character setting was messed up), which is why i suggested that the alliances specifically be barred from having representatives. The logistics of sending THAT many people to iceland on a regular basis MUST be considered. 9 is a good number. they should all be duly elected representatives of the player base, NOT of the alliances. I cant agree completely. The alliances have players too. The fact is we are looking at forming one ourselves. Nothing is set in stone yet but we would then be among the 'not allowed' even if we are small. The problem i have with this is making sure everyone is fairly elected. I would set it up like this: 4 reps MUST come from non aligned corps: (THEY COULD NOT BE NPC CORPS) 4 reps MUST come from alliances. Two codicils You must of been part of a non aligned corp for...call it 6 months before the vote is called. THE CORP MUST ALSO OF BEEN NON ALIGNED FOR THAT AMOUNT OF TIME! (this refers to nominations) The same would work for alliances. Everyone could vote but not everyone could be nominated. But each faction would then vote for its own candidates Bob would be excluded from nominations for VERY obvious reasons. Though they should be allowed to vote The same circumstances could well apply to goon swarm or any alliance above 2500 really. This then leaves a voting base (based on numbers) that honestly could be swayed. the 9th and final slot i would put up to a FULL voting of the eve playerbase. About the best way you could do it imo. I just can't think of a way of making it fair that DOESN'T involve excluding alliances. I mean, think about it... The problem with your system is that it can be abused. Alliance gets someone outside of it's ranks to run, then it tells all it's people to vote for that person. That gives their candidate of choice an unfair advantage over the others. There are hundreds of thousands of players of EVE Online, Of those hundreds of thousands, maybe only half would be good for a spot on this oversight committee...that means that you've got to pick 9 people from a pool of a hundred thousand or so... It just gives regular players who would be really good for the job less chance of actually getting it.
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:27:00 - [389] Originally by: Sartaron RL persons should be elected. Not "Characters". It is about auditing a company and its processes. Customers elect auditors. In the end, that's what's going on here. Real people being elected to audit a real company staffed by other real people. This isn't a game mechanic man, this is a serious thing.
Taikun Brunel Gallente Evolved Gamer Zzz	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:33:00 - [390] Originally by: Sinder Ohm Originally by: Taikun Brunel See above for definition of a kool-aid drinker. Someone got out of the bed on wrong side of the bed? both you posts have been cynical looks like you will never be satisfied, if you dont like it here stf off!! So voices of disagreement are not welcome here. To that I say you can take your own advice. I believe some over eager marking intern got on the blower with another intern at the NY Times with a 'we talked about this over lunch' story. CCP will implement this at their own peril. Just remember it is US who pay each month who is going to pay for 9 losers in these forums for free trips to Iceland a few times a year. I would prefer they funneled that cash into fixing long outstanding issues with the game rather than junkets for suckups. Don't like my point of view Sinder Ohm? Mlow be.
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:37:00 - [391] This is the stupidest idea any player base for any game has ever thought up. You people should be embarrassed for taking this so far. ---- Everything I say represents my corporation and their views.
Miz Cenuij OctoberSnow Corp	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:40:00 - [392] Ive always trusted CCP. After all they gave me my Nyx. Oh.... wait, bugger. VOTE FOR ME ! LOLZOR. "Men are going to die.. and im going to kill them".
Rock Raper	Posted - 2007.06.08 07:43:00 - [393] Originally by: Seth Enkar Edited by: Seth Enkar on 08/06/2007 06:13:20 Edited by: Seth Enkar on 08/06/2007 06:12:07 Elections? Oversight Committee? What a crock of ****. I agree it's a good idea, but there's NO way that the representatives are going to be truly representative of everyone in eve unless certain safe-guards are put in place. hell, i'd go so far as to say that given the sheer SIZE of the voting block that BoB, Goonswarm, and the other big alliances control, most, if not all of these "Oversight Representatives" will be chosen by these big alliances. i personally think the big alliances should be barred from having any of their people anywhere near this. This way, it's guaranteed that you get a committee of the people, for the people. Like most everyone else in this thread, i'd love like hell to get nominated. EDIT: What's really funny is that spelling out safe-guards as one word with no dash causes the F, E, and G to be starred out..what's up with that? Problem with this idea is that they just make alts or make new accounts for alts and then they have the ability to vote just like that idea werent in place :( If you see ME posting Ive made a mistake >.<
Grath Telkin Amarr Bottomfeeders Inc	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:02:00 - [394] O.k., everybody take off your game clothes, THEY ARE NOT SENDING YOUR ALT TO ICELAND. They will send REAL, LIVE, BREATHING PEOPLE to Iceland. These people will likely gain no super secret secrets, and EVEN if they WERE part of one alliance or the other, their single job is to MAKE SURE CCP IS ON THE UP AND UP. They don't get to say "do this" or "don't do that". They are simply goin to review CCP's handling of issues like petitions, see how the operations run, and report their findings to us the players. This means they will see lonely men and women who are spending far too many hours in front of monitors staring at codes that many will not understand. They will see some poor room of souls who are the petition department, who's sole job is to handle the whines of 200K players on a daily basis. If they are EXTREMELY lucky, they may see some of the R&D department for future releases, but IF they are aloud in to such a department, it WILL be accompanied by some form of gag order. In honesty, i think the group should contain at least one of each of the following: One Carebear, a guy who has 0 interest in the affairs of 0.0 space. One Northern Coalition Member. One Southern Coalition Member. One Alliance Member. One NON affiliated 0.0 member, perhaps from the drone regions, or in general, somebody who has little vested interest in the war in its current state. That should be the bare minimum, perhaps 2 of each of those guys/girls would do best. Also, in all fairness, if they actually want to present the face of honesty, these people should never make the trip more than twice. The members should be regularly changed out, to avoid stagnation, or any claims of corruption in the group. Lets all put away our tinfoil hat for a bit and remember that they are observers only, and will have no real say in the events of the game. So long as their makeup is diverse, i will be satisfied with their reports.
Ron White	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:13:00 - [395] Originally by: Grath Telkin O.k., everybody take off your game clothes, THEY ARE NOT SENDING YOUR ALT TO ICELAND. They will send REAL, LIVE, BREATHING PEOPLE to Iceland. These people will likely gain no super secret secrets, and EVEN if they WERE part of one alliance or the other, their single job is to MAKE SURE CCP IS ON THE UP AND UP. They don't get to say "do this" or "don't do that". They are simply goin to review CCP's handling of issues like petitions, see how the operations run, and report their findings to us the players. This means they will see lonely men and women who are spending far too many hours in front of monitors staring at codes that many will not understand. They will see some poor room of souls who are the petition department, who's sole job is to handle the whines of 200K players on a daily basis. If they are EXTREMELY lucky, they may see some of the R&D department for future releases, but IF they are aloud in to such a department, it WILL be accompanied by some form of gag order. In honesty, i think the group should contain at least one of each of the following: One Carebear, a guy who has 0 interest in the affairs of 0.0 space. One Northern Coalition Member. One Southern Coalition Member. One Alliance Member. One NON affiliated 0.0 member, perhaps from the drone regions, or in general, somebody who has little vested interest in the war in its current state. That should be the bare minimum, perhaps 2 of each of those guys/girls would do best. Also, in all fairness, if they actually want to present the face of honesty, these people should never make the trip more than twice. The members should be regularly changed out, to avoid stagnation, or any claims of corruption in the group. Lets all put away our tinfoil hat for a bit and remember that they are observers only, and will have no real say in the events of the game. So long as their makeup is diverse, i will be satisfied with their reports. Yay lets elect ppl that really have no idea of what they are doing so that CCP can put them in a room with 300 encyclopedias worth of hardcopy and say "have fun, you have a day." It would be much better if they opened up to a 3rd party company but that'll never happen... cause they'd know what they are doing AND what to look for "You cant fix stupid"
Ridley Tree The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:14:00 - [396] They should scrap the idea, hire some real auditors and not depend on the stupidity of the general population to elect people completely unsuitable to do the job to go there. That they are willing to go this far indicates they are most likely innocent. But that they want to use player elected people to do so is... well odd. Great so we go and elect a bunch of non-computer code literate people who can be shoved around and won't know if what they're seeing is normal or not. I mean really are these people we elect going to be given complete access to all of EVE's files and logs. Are they going to spend days pouring over them looking for problems or corruption? Come on. ---- The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos
DarkFenix Caldari Pilots Of Honour	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:23:00 - [397] In the past I've pretty much always been in favour of CCP's decisions on dealing with various matters, but not this time. This is absolutely ridiculous and I think CCP should be ashamed of bowing to player pressure like this. What could have been done instead? I don't know, I'm no businessman. But this move is absurd and most likely ineffective. Just read the usual flamer posts on this thread. Already we're getting the usual "it's not good enough" crap, we're also now getting "why are you using OUR money to fly people to Iceland" tripe. Do CCP really think this move will change anything? GS and friends will probably just dismiss all the chosen candidates as BoB or BoB alts immediately, then disregard anything said by them. But who do we have to blame for this crap? Who's fault is it that CCP are now having to resort to drastic and utterly insane measures? The fired ISD member, GS and friends. That's who. They've blown issues completely out of all proportion and conducted an extensive smear campaign against CCP's name. Congratulations GS, you're diverting CCP's attention and resources away from the game, perhaps your goal of ruining it for everyone will be realised after all.
Seth Enkar Gallente High Guard Argosy	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:45:00 - [398] Originally by: Grath Telkin O.k., everybody take off your game clothes, THEY ARE NOT SENDING YOUR ALT TO ICELAND. They will send REAL, LIVE, BREATHING PEOPLE to Iceland. These people will likely gain no super secret secrets, and EVEN if they WERE part of one alliance or the other, their single job is to MAKE SURE CCP IS ON THE UP AND UP. They don't get to say "do this" or "don't do that". They are simply goin to review CCP's handling of issues like petitions, see how the operations run, and report their findings to us the players. This means they will see lonely men and women who are spending far too many hours in front of monitors staring at codes that many will not understand. They will see some poor room of souls who are the petition department, who's sole job is to handle the whines of 200K players on a daily basis. If they are EXTREMELY lucky, they may see some of the R&D department for future releases, but IF they are aloud in to such a department, it WILL be accompanied by some form of gag order. In honesty, i think the group should contain at least one of each of the following: One Carebear, a guy who has 0 interest in the affairs of 0.0 space. One Northern Coalition Member. One Southern Coalition Member. One Alliance Member. One NON affiliated 0.0 member, perhaps from the drone regions, or in general, somebody who has little vested interest in the war in its current state. That should be the bare minimum, perhaps 2 of each of those guys/girls would do best. Also, in all fairness, if they actually want to present the face of honesty, these people should never make the trip more than twice. The members should be regularly changed out, to avoid stagnation, or any claims of corruption in the group. Lets all put away our tinfoil hat for a bit and remember that they are observers only, and will have no real say in the events of the game. So long as their makeup is diverse, i will be satisfied with their reports. I don't think anyone here believes that any of these "auditors" will have a say in actual development matters. What i think the concern is is that if the members of this committee are all big alliance members, then their credibility will be nil, and the whole thing will fail, because it will automatically be assumed that they're lying. It'll be seen as nothing more than a show, put on by CCP, to hide their Evil CorruptionÖ I haven't totally made up my mind on the whole corruption thing...i mean, yes, IAD did an investigation, and their results are nil. The rational side of me says it's been looked into, and justice has been served, but then the skeptic in me says "what if he's full of ****, and is just blowing smoke up my ass?" so i'm still half and half on the whole subject, as i believe a lot of players are as well.
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:50:00 - [399] I guess the ceo had no choce, the sillyness of the whole situation was not just threatening the future of the game but also the livlihoods of employees that have done nothing wrong and that work fair and hard for the game. If the price of saving EVE Online is spending a few thousand dollers every quartar to fly players to iceland to audit then it's money well spent. I still think prevention is better than cure.
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:56:00 - [400] Marketing wise a great move by Hillmar and his boys imo. If you're smeared across half the net because of later disproven allegations and want to un-smear yourself effectively, how do you go about it ? Indeed, you think of something that's new in the MMO genre, something that'll grab some space on all those sites where a normal rebuttal gets little to no chance of attracting attention. So, great tactic, publicity-wise. The idea itself stinks imo. You see, first of all Eve is not a democracy. It should never become one either. The 'terror of the dumb masses' doesn't work for MMO cultures like Eve's. Secondly, if you want to have 9 players elected you'll have to run the election by their character names. You might include some information about their RL positions, but I doubt such a thing is very usefull, as using actually verified info would probably not be possible. Electing by character name doesn't end up in certainty about origin of said character. Next time people have something to whine about they'll say CCP rigged the elections to end up with a majority of players in the committee (say 5 of them), that are in their pocket. Hell, already people are trying to exclude characters from alliances, which by this time form the majority of the overall population, and could ofc never be excluded. All in all, I'll probably have more trust in you guys taking 5 seniro gm's or devs and letting them do it then in this community choosing 9 people out of it's midst to do it and not burying those same 9 people under heaps of abuse the first time some **** hits the fan. [center] Old blog
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.06.08 08:58:00 - [401] So CCP and BoB got lot of publicity, oh and Goonies too ... where are the others ? Anyway ... where can I vote for Dark Shikari ? Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
DeadDuck Amarr Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:08:00 - [402] I really dont like the idea. Sounds great at 1st sight but when you think a bit over the subject it flaws. Why ? Because you are electing "Eve Characters". Nobody knows who are the real people behind the these characters. Who can assure that if we elect one respectable character in EVE to be auditing CCP actions, that same character will not be bought by other person to assume control of that same character ?? Is always happening in this game. In the end we can finishing electing the worst people to audit the game, and TBH we really dont need these audits. I believe in CCP efforts and the internal bureau that was created to deal with "strange phenomena" in the game. No need for this elections. But hey is nice marketing ------------------ Ex D2 proud member
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:10:00 - [403] the articel was impressive and the whole idea. I liked it - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.08 09:27:00 - [404] Originally by: Rod Blaine Marketing wise a great move by Hillmar and his boys imo. If you're smeared across half the net because of later disproven allegations and want to un-smear yourself effectively, how do you go about it ? Indeed, you think of something that's new in the MMO genre, something that'll grab some space on all those sites where a normal rebuttal gets little to no chance of attracting attention. So, great tactic, publicity-wise. The idea itself stinks imo. You see, first of all Eve is not a democracy. It should never become one either. The 'terror of the dumb masses' doesn't work for MMO cultures like Eve's. Secondly, if you want to have 9 players elected you'll have to run the election by their character names. You might include some information about their RL positions, but I doubt such a thing is very usefull, as using actually verified info would probably not be possible. Electing by character name doesn't end up in certainty about origin of said character. Next time people have something to whine about they'll say CCP rigged the elections to end up with a majority of players in the committee (say 5 of them), that are in their pocket. Hell, already people are trying to exclude characters from alliances, which by this time form about a third of the total population, and could ofc never be excluded. All in all, I'll probably have more trust in you guys taking 5 seniro gm's or devs and letting them do it then in this community choosing 9 people out of it's midst to do it and not burying those same 9 people under heaps of abuse the first time some ** hits the fan. You hit the nail on the head. It's great publicity, but nothing more. Originally by:** Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
NovaPod	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:17:00 - [405] Some posters in this thread are really funny to actually think this has anything to do with restoring the trust (of theplayerside) in CCP or anything. You see that also how this got announced. Its simply about presenting a reaction to their problems of their former cheating and their current (mingling with BoB over msn for infos) to the media..not to the playerbase. And oh looky what a pr stunt we have this real-life economy in eve, this politics (more corruption) and now ¦democratic¦(I feel sorry for this abused word) voting of uhm..what is it actualy? Its simply that what the Award thingie normaly is. I always wondered why the winners of this awards should pay their tickets on their own..but woops now the vote winners of this get their trip payed. Very fine for this fan-group but dont fall for this as a having any controlling effect and only a policy change made by eve can try to build any trust (no contact with customers outside of petition/official emails which are controlled by a ¦real¦ internal affairs(and some real punishment not this ¦oh you bad dev cheating with bob-slap on the fingers` like in the past)..no joining of player-alliances/corps etc)
Sales Merchant	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:45:00 - [406] Originally by: NY Times in favor of a mighty alliance of players called Band of Brothers. Suprising from someone who apparantly doesn't know much about EVE. Did they manage to get anyone from Goonswarm for comment?
Lunas Feelgood S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.06.08 10:59:00 - [407] I nominate myself and all my alts. Btw do you get payd?? Originally by: Shamis Orzoz When the going gets tough...the tough join Bob. Originally by: Shin Ra Didn't u get the memo? Bending over is the new honorable thing to do!
Caius LiviusCerso	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:32:00 - [408] I nominate Kugutsman.
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:35:00 - [409] Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 08/06/2007 11:36:54 Originally by: MrTripps Won't a committee elected by popular vote be dominated by the largest alliance(s)? If Goonswarm & Co. doesn't pull a brilliant jiu-jitsu move and throw all their votes behind BoB and pets for the auditors, I'd be shocked. It's the perfect way to cripple the PR train before it even gets rolling, if it ends up being the BoB Audit Council. BTW Goonies, if you do this, my price for being the first to actually be cynical enough to suggest it publicly is 1 billion ISK, or 50 Muninn's delivered to the system of my choice. Convo or evemail to setup delivery.
laotse Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:37:00 - [410] dutch wanneer het kalf verdronken is dempt men de put http://80.126.192.128:8888/tfd/uploads/1121735338/gallery_11_8_1124480365.jpg Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 kbs, ty - Cortes
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 11:40:00 - [411] Originally by: Taikun Brunel CCP will implement this at their own peril. Just remember it is US who pay each month who is going to pay for 9 losers in these forums for free trips to Iceland a few times a year. I would prefer they funneled that cash into fixing long outstanding issues with the game rather than junkets for suckups. I fully agree with this sentiment.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:25:00 - [412] I think the committee's an excellent idea on CCP's behalf. Personally I wasn't that fussed about the cheating for BoB as it came to light and they dealt with it. I like to think I'm smart enough to not assume the whole company's hopelessly corrupt on the back of one incident. But it's about time people started to recognise that virtual space in MMO's can't be assumed to be solely the property of the producing company where the inhabiting customers are afforded no rights. CCP own the code in the same way my landlord owns the house I live in, the fact he owns the building doesn't meant that he can do what he likes in my house because I pay him to live here and, in the same way, it should mean that CCP can't just do what they like in Eve without involving the people who bring the universe to life. If I have problems with my landlord which I can't resolve I can go to an ombudsman, and now I'll have the same opportunity in Eve. The whole thing shows, imo, just how progressive and resiliant to corruption CCP really are. I feel really pleased to be playing a game where the developers are prepared to take that kind of step - can you imagine Blizzard or SOE, for instance, doing the same? Starlancers
Horas Redwyne	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:51:00 - [413] I thought the whole time this is just a game. Some of you guys are taking all this far too seriously. Kudos to CCP for even going so far to try to make some of you guys fell better but there is no way they can please some of you. Take Eve-online as a game. You should really think about priorities in your life if this whole CCP - BOB story really gets on your nerves.
John McFly Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 12:55:00 - [414] CCP needs to just spend the money and hire an auditing agency (and some American PR gurus to sit in with every meeting to say "Nope, dont do that, you'll end up on Digg again"). Having 9 somewhat-randomly chosen players take a look at the server logs isnt going to do anything but give the appearance of oversight.
Saragael Amarr Qodesh Tsdaqah	Posted - 2007.06.08 13:49:00 - [415] To offer my 2 isk... Whoever is handling PR for EVE should be fired. From a PR point of view a few lemmings will see this as a company that cares, for people with a functioning brain this looks like a move of desperation to get EVE free press and promote interest. It smacks of politians making laws that sound great but nothing except make you vote for them. Let me explain why I feel this idea is USELESS. (I am using material as seen in the NYT article) 1) Election System: The election system will likely be done on the forums or through an ingame process. This means we have no real idea who we are electing to send as our represenatives. We could for all we know be voting in CCP employees and for that matter if we have trust issues it would be SIMPLE for CCP to rig the elections. Additionally we have no idea if the people we elect actually have any skills that will be useful for this type of thing. 2) If the level of community distrust was really as bad as to need this then CCP would not see it's subscription numbers still this hig, they would have lost a lot of people a long time ago. This is some of the evidence this is a PR stunt and not a real move to do something. 3) Checking on CCP: So exactly how will they check, I mean CCP will always have notice of checks about to happen and so can make alterations to hide material they do not want seen. Additionally how long do these people get so they can sort through the records of say 100K toons for a period of say 3 months? This is a do nothing idea that will not actually accomplish anything but PR. Personally I blew off the whiners and was ignoring them. Trust for a game? Can we be REAL PLEASE? Are you enjoying the game any less? Do you feel you are getting less content? I could care less what CCP does as long as they deliver a game I enjoy and keep it running smooth with new stuff now and then to keep my interest. To give them this much leverage is a BAD move by CCP and in my opinion lowers CCP a notch in my respect for them. Worry about the game, quite wasting time on this petty I dont get to win instantly crap and instead put this time, effort and money into making a better game. ====================================== Saragael "Rejoice not my enemy when I have fallen, for I shall arise and God shall be my light out of the darkness."
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:06:00 - [416] Any auditing should NOT focus on endless logs. You can't check all of it, its relatively easy to hide, and people will discredit your auditing attempts. If you wanna do this properly, you need to focus on procedures, rules and permissions. - How does a GM handle a petition, how does his screen look, what information does he have, what tools does he have, how does the system decide who gets what petition, what happens with conflicts of interest (i.e. random GM Joe gets a petition through the system that belongs to his best friend player Billy. How does the system work. Etc.etc for all GM relevant procedures, developers (who has access to tranquility, what kind of logs are kept, what tools do they have, how are DB queries handled, what logs are there), volunteers (tools, abilities ingame), forewarning, who decides what on events (where, what, what reward etc) etc etc. Aside from it being impossible of going through all the logs, the risk of someone altering logs could be real (depending on what procedures are used to log changes in logs). But checking what tools are there and what procedures are in place to ensure proper handling of stuff will be much more telling about how CCP functions really than a billion lines in a DB. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Komen Gallente Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.06.08 14:22:00 - [417] Alright, 14 pages in, what the hell, I'll chime in anyways. 1st, this is an interesting idea. In theory it could work, but it depends on A) who gets elected (and how well the general Eve populous 'trusts' their representatives), B) how much access these players will have, and whether they'll be able to look at PAST DECISIONS, which are the crux of much current distrust. If CCP give these representatives a thorough look into such things, this ought to go a long way towards restoring faith. My greatest fear is that most elections are simply popularity contests. If we're going to vote for people, i want to see such details as educational background, job experience, and placement within Eve - it MATTERS where these players loyalties lie. Otherwise the whole thing might as well be another whitewash. Here's hoping for positive results. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________
Tony Benn	Posted - 2007.06.08 16:13:00 - [418] Quote: "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" Boss: "You lucky git!" So, with that over and done with - where do I sign?
Joik	Posted - 2007.06.08 18:36:00 - [419] I'll volunteer, if they have the meeting in the summer. I see no point in physical travel there to see nothing but snow and interiors. However, I think paying a commercial audit firm might be a better idea. The Sarbanes/Oxley act has made them really good at checking/suggesting internal controls. Not only would everyone trust them to be impartial, but there could be some good benefits as side effects. For such a business oriented game, I find the accounting features terrible. The built in reporting is lousy, and the interfaces to use better software are pretty much not there. And, I don't have much confidence in the accuracy of some of the reporting (especially market history statistics) that is there. A cute provision would be a way to audit in-game corps/alliances. I am just waiting for the first report of corporate management stealing from its members for out-of-game gain.
AegriSomnia Caldari Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.06.08 19:26:00 - [420] Edited by: AegriSomnia on 08/06/2007 19:26:42 Edited by: AegriSomnia on 08/06/2007 19:25:45 Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke Edited by: Ponderous Thunderstroke on 08/06/2007 11:36:54 Originally by: MrTripps Won't a committee elected by popular vote be dominated by the largest alliance(s)? If Goonswarm & Co. doesn't pull a brilliant jiu-jitsu move and throw all their votes behind BoB and pets for the auditors, I'd be shocked. It's the perfect way to cripple the PR train before it even gets rolling, if it ends up being the BoB Audit Council. BTW Goonies, if you do this, my price for being the first to actually be cynical enough to suggest it publicly is 1 billion ISK, or 50 Muninn's delivered to the system of my choice. Convo or evemail to setup delivery. Stop perpetuating this crap, please. You have taken the statements people have made in frustration WAAAAAY too seriously. No one wants EVE to die. NO ONE. We want CCP to be a more transparent, impartial entity, which is to the benefit of EVERYONE. This is a step in that direction. Why would the Goons want to derail this when they have sacrificed everything, including their reputations, to make this exact thing happen? That makes no sense. Goons didnt wake up one day and decide "We are going to destroy EVE/CCP because we're bored". If you understand politics, then you would understand the propaganda campaign by Goons to force CCP to address holes in security and fix broken beurocratic systems that may not have even existed to BE broken in the first place, tbh. Mission : Accomplished. If you need a villian, like the Sith or Sauron, to make yourself feel like Luke Skywalker, then we are your Huckleberry, but stop with the "Goons want EVE to die" bull crap rhetoric. Please. Edit: I need spellcheck Originally by: grayson 34 Thank you for yall's advice, and a special thanks to AegriSomnia for reminding me that there are still ***holes in the world.
Dr Slaughter Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.08 19:31:00 - [421] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 08/06/2007 19:33:14 Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 08/06/2007 19:32:55 Originally by: Ductoris http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/07/arts/07eve.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Some real big info in there. 'where aspiring star* pilots fight over thousands of solar systems' Yes I'm especially interested in when I too get to pilot a star* that sounds pretty hot. Originally by: fire 59 Arguing with stupid people is like trying to bite your own elbow.
Killwing Minmatar Alcohol Fueled Brutality X-PACT	Posted - 2007.06.08 19:43:00 - [422] How amazing,everyone reads one little article then starts chatting like magpies,about how great of an idea this is.All it is a small bone thrown to the player base to cut out the bellyacheing about,resent issuses.I mean don't get me wrong it sounds good on paper but I strongly doubt anything comes from it. The public will more easly fall for a big lie,than for a small one.
Sam Reynolds Caldari Blue Sun Holdings Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2007.06.08 20:30:00 - [423] I love the fact that the article points out clearly that EVE OWNS WOW. :)
Zizzlak United Federation of Planets FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.08 21:45:00 - [424] I think this is really a great idea and a step forward. I'm new to the game but I read the forums and I have seen all the poo flinging. I think this is at the very least an acknowledgement by CCP that they hear what the community is saying, both good and bad, true and untrue. I think whether it will work or not will all boil down to the implementation of it. Just my 2isk. ~Zz
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.08 23:02:00 - [425] Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 08/06/2007 23:01:20 After reading the article again, I believe the system CCP proposed in the NYT is somewhat different than what I first thought it to be. At first I thought, and probably many of you with me, that the committee would audit CCP in a way a professional audit company would. But now I think the nine elected players would in fact take upon them the role of customer relations, if any more accusations of corruption or any other serious problems involving the playerbase would occur, the committee would intermediate between CCP and the playerbase. It would reduce, if not prevent the amount of 'bad' press like the Digg/Slashdot postings as the accusations would (ideally) be submitted to the committee, (again ideally) formed from trusted members of the EvE community, who in turn hand over the accusations to CCP, and CCP in turn can investigate the matter and work out a satisfying reply. Said committee would then be able to look for themselves how CCP deals internally with said accusations, if the procedures are efficient, etc... If the committee notes that all procedures are being followed, and they are sufficient to deal with the problem at hand, perhaps the community will be more inclined to believe said accusations are true/false if it came from trusted members of the community instead of CCP themselves. Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
Wendat Huron Lupus Industries	Posted - 2007.06.08 23:34:00 - [426] How tech savvy would one such auditor have to be to be of any use and not just amount to a big dope being led around shown some blinking lights and being shipped back home?
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.08 23:55:00 - [427] Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 08/06/2007 23:54:41 Originally by: Wendat Huron How tech savvy would one such auditor have to be to be of any use and not just amount to a big dope being led around shown some blinking lights and being shipped back home? It depends on how CCP want to implement this. If it's a real audit, then I don't believe players should be doing it but an independant professional audit company. If the committee would act as a medium between CCP and the community, they could make sure the right procedures are being followed when handling with allegations of corruption, and also the punative measures when said allegations are found to be true. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to see if employees of a company follow their own Code of Conduct and the right internal procedures. And perhaps instead of posting allegations on Kugutsumen or any other third party website/forum, they could be handed over, together with any proof, to the committee, which would be trusted to hand over the information on a professional way to CCP, and ensure they act on it accordingly. Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
WisdomLikeSilence Rogue Method Rogue Method Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.09 00:09:00 - [428] These nine people - wont they be open to corruption also....a few bill here and there.. Anyway this is great PR for the game. Well done CCP - spin worthy of the great Alister Campbell. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) I want to use my robot-wisdo body!
Astarte Nosferatu MBN Holding Corporation	Posted - 2007.06.09 00:20:00 - [429] Edited by: Astarte Nosferatu on 09/06/2007 00:21:42 Originally by: WisdomLikeSilence These nine people - wont they be open to corruption also....a few bill here and there.. The players need to vote on people who they believe will not accept bribes or do anything else than the mandate the community and CCP publicly gave them. I personally don't give a damn about isk. On several occasions I have donated tens of billions of isk to alliances I'm in, which often leads to being broke for a few months till I get lucky enough to get a few billion again. I suicide faction fitted battleships for fun. No isk in the EvE universe could persuade me from closing an eye or two when confronted with corruption, and I'm sure there are plenty of other players, celebrities or not, who feel the same. Only difficulty would be to elect the right people, but that's what you get from working with a democratic system . Originally by: Dianabolic I was sworn to absolute secrecy by CCP
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.06.09 06:40:00 - [430] Neato. :D
Neue Ziel	Posted - 2007.06.09 07:29:00 - [431] I think the following sums up my own take on it and some of the (excellent) ideas people are coming up with: 1. Nine players handle all allegations of corruption and cheating and other wise handle player grievances: This may or may not work. You'd have to elect exceptional individuals who wouldn't bow to peer pressure. If such a player joins a major alliance wouldn't they ignore such complaints adverse to their cause? 2. Independent auditing: This is a MUST; and it needs to be random and unannounced. 3. A clear code of conduct for CCP employees playing the game: CCP developers should be allowed to play their game but like everyone else on a regular player account. Their identities as developers should be kept secret from the public and if discovered the character should like an outed spy, change their identity and disappear. Yes, that sucks but that's the price of being one of the guys who makes the magic. If they log in as a Developer with all the requisite powers it should be a Jovian character with DEV in flashing neon letters over their head so their is no doubt; Again; ex-blizzard guy's "Berlin wall" should apply here. If players know the guy is a developer the temptation to cheat to help his friends and the appearance of corruption will always be there. Further; the developer who joins a major alliance where such allegations are likely to arise should be required to report their membership/actions to the auditors/player council. These are the only people who need to know who the developers are in their player persona.
Christopher Scott Caldari	Posted - 2007.06.09 07:44:00 - [432] How does one audit a one-of-a-kind database using one-of-a-kind developer tools that nobody knows how to use but the developers themselves? I'm sorry, but this is akin to me designing the very first time machine, and then telling someone else to break it down and tell me what I did wrong. It makes absolutely no sense. This isn't some suite of Microsoft or other branded tools that gets licensed out to many different companies. This is a completely homegrown, built from the ground up, dynamic database that the developers created themselves along with the tools that go with it. There's nobody else in the entire world that will know how anything works unless CCP shows them how it works. And that, is the fatal flaw. This "Auditing Committee" is nothing but a silly PR stunt, which was not only released before any real criticism hit the forums, but was also given exclusive commentary by BoB themselves. If that isn't the definition of irony, then who knows? /endrant Originally by: DB Preacher I may be a muppet on these forums and wind peeps up massively but what is going on here is waaaaay over the edge of reasonable morality.
Sral TBear letter of marque	Posted - 2007.06.09 08:08:00 - [433] deffently a interesting aproatch to atleast have some "open" koncept towards us players. This one i will follow closely, but for the idea i gibe thumps up :) For the bloody warm weather here im thumps down....Thought i lived in Scandinavia not Burning hot Egypt Sig removed. Please keep sigs in good taste and do not use profanity. -Kaemonn([email protected])
Liv Dawn PPN United Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.06.09 11:38:00 - [434] What i am wondring about is why many people imediatly start complaining about such issues. for gods sake try to think out of ccps position once. they realised that there been problems with some of their staff trying to tweak ingame things. they reacted and tried to answer things more transparent after the t20 incident. recent "allegations" made them even to release "facts" from the investigations. the last step which is missing is an independant committee trying to judge about it. and this is what they are trying without having someone who had forced them to, just because they think that this is the only way to react on the accusations made. besides many forget that they are always in the doubtet position. normally the one who raises an issue has to "proof or stfu" but in ccps case they have "to proof or i quit." i cant understand such approaches and i think for a company they do quite okay, for those who run around screaming better go playing wow, they dont listen to you at all. the only lil problem which stays is that elections will clearly favor those electing most organised and i doubt that 9 goons would be able to ask the right questions or look at the things which aint presented. so mebbe you want to elect out of different playergroups - emipre playes, alliance members, non alliance members, players with this and that unique attribute to prevent that. my 2 or 3 cents. :)
John McFly Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.09 12:45:00 - [435] It would also be good if devs/GMs/ISD were limited to a published code of honor in addition to being prohibited from using devtools in the aid of their corpmates. For example: None of their alts could be used as spies against other corporations. No scouting via Jove ship. No divulging dev/GM/ISD status. No sharing of shady-but-not-an-exploit "features". No sharing of information learned "at work" about how the server mechanics work. No leadership of major region-consuming 0.0 alliances. Etc
sartorii Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.06.09 22:43:00 - [436] /me wonders what CCP's CMMI level is.. agreed its a step, and a nice idea, but I too wonder about the qualifications of those who have the idle time to fly to Iceland to audit for a GAME they play... I could not do it (but would love to) I'm not sure the opinion and 'evaluation' of most of those who could will hold much weight. I'd rather see a 3rd party Company do it, with published results. As well as having a full review/disclosure of CCPs internal audits and clear Conflict of Interest Policy published (and STRICTLY ENFORCED at the slightest 'bending') for its employee's and their in game participation. My concern was NEVER that CCP as a company was rigging the game, but that individuals inside the company could easily have "outside agenda's" other than providing the gaming enviroment. The apparent lax attitude (and unprecedented one in most MMORGs) towards employee's being involved in Gaming politics at a very high level only promotes the perception of 'self interest' vs 'customer interests'. As long as employees are allowed to participate with player corps and alliances you will ALWAYS have a means to an 'unfair advantage'. Even disclosing patch changes and effects prior to public release can give a major strategic advantage to those who know how to use it.. (buy/sell early/pre train skill reqs etc.. the number of possible abuses from insider info is staggering) Insider Trading is a serious offense in RL for a reason. It can have a major unbalancing affect on any market/operation. Given the scope of Eve (and the fact that it IS mostly a Market Simulation at heart) CCP needs a clear policy and punishment for those caught violating Conflict of Interest rules. *"disconnect and self destruct one mullet at at time" [sic]*
Sam Bacon KAOS. KA0S Theory	Posted - 2007.06.09 23:12:00 - [437] Originally by: illusha Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Professionals from an outside firm aswell as the starcraft players ... best of both worlds?
Matrix Aran Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.09 23:19:00 - [438] Originally by: News This won't be an election. This will be a popularity contest. A silly one at that. The definition of all elections. ----
Sera Hadari Kodaku Industries	Posted - 2007.06.09 23:49:00 - [439] Originally by: illusha Damn that liberal bias! I thought it was a well written article and very funny in some areas. Quote: So now, in a sociological twist, the company that makes Eve, CCP, based in Iceland (population 300,000), says it will tackle the problem the way a democracy would. In what appears to be a first, the company plans to hold elections so that players can select members of an oversight committee. Quote: The company will then fly those players to Iceland regularly so they can audit CCPÆs operations and report back to their player-constituents. And taking cues from transitions to democracy in the developing world, CCP says it will call in election monitors from universities in Europe and the United States. Are you serious? I haven't heard CCP anounce this yet and this is really stupid. What kind of a professional and legit company lets non-employees audit them and look at the details of their operation? None that I can think of. Yes, they may hire an outside firm to do it, but they are professionals, not regular people that play a spacecraft game and take it too seriously. Why would you pay a lot of money to fly non-employees to do something you obviously don't want them to do? This won't save your credibility. Are you going to pay the people of these committee for their working hours lost? How would they explain this to their boss, "sorry boss but I need to go to Iceland for a couple of weeks to tell some idiots how to run a game" "Are you serious? you're FIRED" Your lack of intelligence once again surprises me CCP, good job again! Agreed in full. What the hell is going on these days.
Hammer Judge Gallente Southern Cross Incorporated Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.06.10 00:18:00 - [440] It's not hard to only select gamers who have some qualifications to audit a company in these matters. It's ridiculous to assume CCP would allow a bunch of trailer trash to audit them, let alone to stand for election in the first place. They would have to include a vetting of electoral applicants in order for this to make sense. Candidates with a business or public sector background, for example, in process design or governance would be good. - My newbie guide for experienced MMO gamers.
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.10 01:18:00 - [441] Edited by: Richard Aiel on 10/06/2007 01:20:37 lol i said that earlier... If you can afford to take that time off to go to Iceland and chill with ppl from a game you play, yer in a higher tax bracket than I (and the majority of players Id assume). Or you're in a job that doesnt require you to select your vacation days 6 months in advance (like I do)... Originally by: Hammer Judge It's not hard to only select gamers who have some qualifications to audit a company in these matters. It's ridiculous to assume CCP would allow a bunch of trailer trash to audit them, let alone to stand for election in the first place. They would have to include a vetting of electoral applicants in order for this to make sense. Candidates with a business or public sector background, for example, in process design or governance would be good. THAT in itself would be interesting to figure out... how do you do this exactly? How do you prove that you HAVE these degrees?? Yeah... i got the basic US High School (Diploma)Degree... and BTH, other than getting a photocopy of this I dont really know how Id prove I have even that... Fine... Ill play nice
Yankee Rebellion	Posted - 2007.06.10 04:36:00 - [442] Edited by: Yankee Rebellion on 10/06/2007 04:36:58 Originally by: Ridley Tree They should scrap the idea, hire some real auditors and not depend on the stupidity of the general population to elect people completely unsuitable to do the job to go there. That they are willing to go this far indicates they are most likely innocent. But that they want to use player elected people to do so is... well odd. Great so we go and elect a bunch of non-computer code literate people who can be shoved around and won't know if what they're seeing is normal or not. I mean really are these people we elect going to be given complete access to all of EVE's files and logs. Are they going to spend days pouring over them looking for problems or corruption? Come on. /signed Out of the nine sent to this happy little beer-fest, one or two might have some small idea of what they should be looking for. At least five will be rabid fanbois looking for swag and two won't be able to do anything but stare at the women working there. Let's face it, people, Billy Bob the plumber from Oklahoma is not going to help this situation. Crap.... wrong character - Yankee Uprising
Tyanni	Posted - 2007.06.10 06:28:00 - [443] Whilest the orginal idea of this thread (The whole having a selected amount of players go over to CCP HQ now and then to keep tabs on things) isn't a bad idea and at least a step into reassuring the fayth of what now is the greater population of the eve community, it has its drawbacks... Devs/Employee's can easily cover up any misconduct before selected players arrive at CCP HQ, covering up any tracks that would otherwise harm their career. Those selected could be from BoB or any BoB pets/renters, if they notice something why would they want to public announce it? It would screw them up so why not just turn a blind eye to insure their own personal security? I'm not one of those complete anti-bob people, whilest I do admitt there are those in BoB I seriously dislike (with a firey passion of hate and anger ) I don't blame the allegations and misconducts on them all. Alot of them are just regular pilots who play the game for the same reasons most of us do. Anyways... The general feel I get is that no BoB, or BoB pet/renter should be allowed to be part of those selected to go over to CCP HQ, to make sure nothing can be brushed aside. Of course that leads to another problem... Those selected might try to conjure something up that will be damaging to BoB as a form to discredit them. So the voting process has to be VERY well thought out. Also, in response to someone who posted about how we all went on this BoB annihilation campaign... Yes, you are an idiot and a douchebag, I can probally bet you are a BoB pet yourself, some advice here... Don't try and sound all big by saying that we never accomplished what we tried to do. I was down fighting against a BoB pet in Feyth and we were whooping your backsides, it was only until BoB came to save you that we had to pull out, so until you can fight better at defending your own space, shut up. (Btw, I don't remember exactly which renter(s) we were fighting there so don't take that comment as a personal rant at you). Lastly, about SirMolle's comment on the NYT. Whilest your ultimate goal is to control all of 0.0 space isn't really a bad thing, its totally pointless. I'm not saying you can't do it, but if you do it'll be the end of Eve, quite probally before you even achieve it people will just leave the game by the thousands and poof! There goes the game. I hope you realise that (And CCP for that matter), it just makes you seem heartless, without thought for anyone else's enjoyment (Its a wonder why people don't like you). To CCP: Why should we continue paying for a game that you have preached all this time as being a never ending role play that constantly expands and grows if you allow it to happen? I enjoy this game alot as much as the next person and would like to continue playing it in years to come. You say that you walking around stations, etc will come by the end of 2008... Mind wonders if Eve will still be around then, seems like all your work is just a waste of time atm, its disappointing but I really do hope things work out for the best. Right, so essay is finished ^_^;; I apologise for it being so big but I rarely post on eve-o forums so I tend to say everything at once
Richard Aiel Caldari The Funkstars Guild	Posted - 2007.06.10 07:42:00 - [444] Ya know.... they are gonna seriously have to do some kind of psychological screening to the applicant in question too... A Corp member brought up the idea that if he were to go he might do some harm to some ppl there... another poster here advocated the fact that he/she'd "close an eye or two" if they found wrongdoing... So in fact, whats to stop the wrong guy/girl from getting elected and going postal when he/she get to CCPHQ? And dont give me the "its just a game" crap... we ALL know how blurred the line can get in the more heated arguments here and we all also know that not EVERYONE on these forums or in this game explicitly understand the difference between IRL and in game. http://eve.wikia.com/wiki/Alliances:Band_of_Brothers
Maglorre	Posted - 2007.06.12 05:46:00 - [445] Originally by: Serendipity007 Originally by: Maglorre Originally by: Serendipity007 Stuff about committees and constitutions and... stuff Have you ever read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" by Robert A. Heinline? No, should I have? Could you briefly explain the book? The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress It's just the scenario you described could have been paraphrased from a part of that book. The book also explains why it would never work Cheers.
Val Dauphen Devious - Special Forces Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.06.15 04:47:00 - [446] Just to echo what other's have said... I fail to see how letting 8 or 9 players into the corporate offices for a few days once a year will really help anything. Would the comittee know what to look for? Where to look? Would they even understand what they were seeing? You could make a toxic landfill look like Club Med given a years notice.....especially if it only had to look like one for a few days.
thetraveler	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:01:00 - [447] Edited by: thetraveler on 03/07/2007 03:03:11 Edited by: thetraveler on 03/07/2007 03:01:19 http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.sp?a=topic&threadID=548549 the above thread in this reply was locked and because i hadn't researched the forums , i didn't realize there was so much info on the subject , so my apologies to the mods on not being more complete on looking into this issue a little more beforehand .
thetraveler	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:10:00 - [448] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=548546 sry last thread was not the one i meant to put in here .
Ryoma Sakamoto	Posted - 2007.07.03 03:43:00 - [449] Among Eve's 200,000 or so active player base, isn't it reasonable to assume that there exist at lease a dozen people who are real-life experts on information security or corporate governance, familiar with Serbanes-Oxley, BS7799, database management, or any other skills and knowledge needed to audit CCP properly? Sure, there is the problem of CCP being given advance warnings of such audits, but even then it is very hard to conceal irregularities from eyes that know where and what to look for. I have myself received training in information security auditing, and I could infer from published information that CCP needs to look into vetting and authorization of its in-game volunteers and GMs. I can't make recommendations without running a proper audit, but some form of monitoring by customers is a desirable step, as it gives staff and volunteers greater awareness. One popular misconception about audits is that most people see audits as some form of inquisition, designed to hunt down misdeeds. In fact, audits are designed to review and improve the corporate mechanisms for preventing misdeeds and mitigating their effects. The misconception probably arose because only occasions when auditors appear on media are during major corporate scandals, when their whistleblowing (or failure to do so) becomes the news.
Fastercart Gallente Ihatalo Heavy Industries YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.15 16:30:00 - [450] Finally, it's about to be implemented. Run for office in EVE, the new CSM by Xhagen. I was beginning to think CCP forgot about this. __ Rorqual AKA Mega Maid Oh, my God. It's Mega Maid. She's gone from suck to blow.

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