Its not difficult to understand, isk faucets and moon goo are not the same thing. Mining doesnt generate isk. It generates goods that can be sold. Bounties, mission rewards, incursions, these print isk into the game. I get that.

The point is, these types of arguments are NOT what drives the type of events promoted by the OP. Lets not pretend our Goon friend or anyone else for that matter engages in these campaigns to "prove" something to CCP, or to "fix" a broken economy.

This is about twisting the knife, and watching people wail. And being entertained by it. plain and simple.

There's no virtue in pointing out an economic technicality when economics have little to do with why people participate in these things in the first place.

We're not all of one unified motivation. While many of us are motivated by the tears, some are motivated by things like the economics of it, or the elitism of the incursion-runners. Or all of those things. Or none of those things.

The idea that nullsec powers or those outside of high sec are somehow threatened by an isk faucet in the form of high sec incursions is pretty silly. The very players they chastise for being "risk-adverse" and "cowardly" simply because they live in empire space are not the type of players gaming the economy, or leveraging that accumulated wealth for some kind of massive in-game competitive advantage. Usually, they harm no one. Most of that isk goes to adding even fancier gear to existing blinged out ships.

For all you weaklings who actually have to work to pay for losses - what a bunch of idiots. You foolishly grind the endless isk-faucet Incursion system when you could skip the fights and have your alliance leaders milk bottomless moon goo isk-faucets instead.

It's not silly and yes they harm all the market niches and the other players who have to share the same items they buy.

The second any kind of interaction happens, nothing, nothing (also see butterly effect) happens in EvE that won't affect someone else.

As you say, incursions are an isk faucet.
Unlike what you say, mongoo mining is not an isk faucet.


Moon goo is just paid as much as (mostly) hi seccers want to pay for it, with THEIR isk-faucetted money.

Please elaborate. Let's assume a carebear starts with a Raven. He earns some isk and sells the Raven to buy a Golem. He runs some incursions and buys a faction mod. Does the same buys another faction mod. Cycle repeats, a year later he's got like 6 different battleships, each blinged out completely.

How is he destroying market niches and harming other players? What *limited*, non-renewable resources is he "camping" by not going out and getting blown up as often as you do?

The bottom line is, far more nullsec entities use the power and wealth accumulated in 0.0 to influence events in empire space, than the citizens of empire will ever do to use the power and wealth accumulated through incursions to influence events in nullsec space.

Please elaborate. Let's assume a carebear starts with a Raven. He earns some isk and sells the Raven to buy a Golem. He runs some incursions and buys a faction mod. Does the same buys another faction mod. Cycle repeats, a year later he's got like 6 different battleships, each blinged out completely.

How is he destroying market niches and harming other players? What *limited*, non-renewable resources is he "camping" by not going out and getting blown up as often as you do?

The bottom line is, far more nullsec entities use the power and wealth accumulated in 0.0 to influence events in empire space, than the citizens of empire will ever do to use the power and wealth accumulated through incursions to influence events in nullsec space.

What you don't seem to understand is that this process of creation and destruction is what fuels the economy. These "evil nullsec alliances" are what keeps a significant portion of the industrial sector employed. Where a nullsec alliance has to risk and many times lose tens of billions of isk in a single fight over this "moon goo" or other things you seem to feel are unfair advantages, the empire carebears can grind that same billions of isk per month and not have significant risk of losing *anything*.

I simply cannot understand how you can exude this falsely altruistic attitude whilst condemning nullsec, and all that it contributes to EVE as a whole.

I completely understand the process of creation and destruction, without consumption of goods there is no economy. In game like EvE where the currency isn't tied to a gold reserve (or similar measure), there needs to be isk sinks (read - 'slposions) to counteract isk faucets (missions / incursions, etc). Otherwise inflation soon renders everything worthless.

The reason I said what I said is that every time I've discussed the role of the highsec market hubs with nullsec dwellers, especially regards to the importance of having more or less secure market hubs (meaning high sec space is necessary for the economy to function) all I've ever heard in return is that the nullsec alliances do not depend on goods produced in high sec, and make everything themselves out there in 0.0.

You seem to reject that notion soundly. My guess is that it depends on the Alliance.

All I was saying is that the motivation behind most of these interference campaigns is the sheer childish glee obtained from watching other players cry, not the economic principles that get whipped out and slapped down on the table in their defense. Also that empire citizens are not aggressively extending their weight into nullsec to interfere with activities out there. These are merely observations, not arguments. Your economic assertions are not incorrect.

The bottom line is, there are more effective ways to send a serious message and build a better economy than screaming "COME AND GET EM BOYZ, GET YOUR GRIEF ON RIGHT HERE THERES PLENTY OF TEARS FOR US ALL"

These kinds of campaigns are symptoms of a game balancing issue. They are not the cure for a game balancing issue. This is exactly what I said in my first post in the thread.

I am in no way condemning nullsec as a whole, I said from the very beginning they deserved to have their broken mechanics fixed. If you read my post, you'd know that I didn't even say that this campaign was unfair. If I'm condemning anything here its (as you put it) the "false altruism" where a bunch of self-described "tear collectors" turn around and pretend that they are "saving" highsec or the game in general from its own broken state.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is what we in the business call bitter, bitter tears.

<3

And that, ladies and gentleman, and I use both those terms VERY liberally, is what I call deluded. Enjoy your imagined non existant cyber tears. I'm gonna keep playing the game the way I like, and I'm sure your going to keep doing the same.

I understand the whole sandbox concept, so party on with Mother-ship, perhaps you can create a special militia so you can take care of all glitches in the game you you deem unfair.

Personally, I just like watching fleets of shiny ships running from one end of empire to the other chasing the latest incursion to get a few hours in before it gets closed again. It's...majestic.

Yeah. I can tell you aren't crying by the way you're frothing with rage about how people you don't like because they are winning a spaceship game are bad people in real life. You seem like a really well-adjusted person, actually.

[quote=Braelyn]
I completely understand the process of creation and destruction, without consumption of goods there is no economy. In game like EvE where the currency isn't tied to a gold reserve (or similar measure), there needs to be isk sinks (read - 'slposions) to counteract isk faucets (missions / incursions, etc). Otherwise inflation soon renders everything worthless.

Since he and the likes are adding ISK in the system at a pace faster than commodities are created, commodities (expecially the ones needed by him) become more in demand and he has to offer more money to get them.
This turns on inflation (1% a month, EvE used to have deflation instead) and 1% a month seems little but that's 12% a year.

12% on a 200M item seems little but it does add up!

[quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]
Since he and the likes are adding ISK in the system at a pace faster than commodities are created, commodities (expecially the ones needed by him) become more in demand and he has to offer more money to get them.
This turns on inflation (1% a month, EvE used to have deflation instead) and 1% a month seems little but that's 12% a year.

12% on a 200M item seems little but it does add up!

'slposions aren't isk sinks, they are another faucet. Each explosion introduces MORE isk into the game due to the insurance payout. No isk is destroyed. Every time a ship is destroyed it introduces isk and creates a new demand for materials to replace the ship. More isk + more demand = prices will inflate.

The only isk sinks are the lp stores, a few taxes and whatnot.

Well, CCP themselves claim that there is no big problem with inflation across the whole of the New Eden economy, and all the statistics they've released tend to back that up. They re-iterate that claim in the CSM minutes.

There are localised rises in some items, but that seems to be more about demand/supply rebalancing than indicative of large scale macro economic changes.

[quote=Vaerah Vahrokha][quote=Hans Jagerblitzen]
Since he and the likes are adding ISK in the system at a pace faster than commodities are created, commodities (expecially the ones needed by him) become more in demand and he has to offer more money to get them.
This turns on inflation (1% a month, EvE used to have deflation instead) and 1% a month seems little but that's 12% a year.

12% on a 200M item seems little but it does add up!

I'd be curious to see if the anti-mom campaign has any significant impact on the economy if it goes on for a month. I'm especially interested in PLEX prices, and also certain faction mods and shiny ships that are popular top-tier ships for incursioners.