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coldplasma Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:24:00 - [1] Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:24:55 Why is there no counter to cloakers who sit in your key 0.0 systems 24/7 so that noone can rat or mine? Why is there no sort of compromise to putting yourself on the front line right amongst the enemy forces? They nerf the NOS because they think it is overpowered, but as it stands, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of these people. The ability to cloak and never be caught means that tactics that some corps use can never be defeated without some sheer luck. Tactics such as sitting a few snipers 239km off a gate cloaked and putting a cloaking dictor on the gate so that when anybody jumps in, the dictor drops a bubble, the person can't escape and thus the snipers have all the time in the world to uncloak and lock them and pop them. The snipers either then recloak or warp off to a safespot and cloak so that no gang, no matter how big it is, has a chance of catching them. There NEEDS to be some sort of way to get around this, maybe by using specialised probes to find them. Discuss. _________________
Sir Heavy Dragonian Freelancers Academy	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:29:00 - [2] To become part of local, is a pirates most fierced weapon. Gotta love it when you use it on your enemy. Yeh, k, not when you want to rat in peace...
coldplasma Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:32:00 - [3] Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:31:48 Originally by: Sir Heavy To become part of local, is a pirates most fierced weapon. Gotta love it when you use it on your enemy. Yeh, k, not when you want to rat in peace... It's not just about ratting in peace. If anything is wrong, I think it is being able to sit in an enemy home system and quite happily sit there all day while you run away to go shopping, watch TV, do what you gotta do, etc. And the fact that the enemy know they are there and know there is nothing they can do is only the extra kick in the balls. _________________
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:41:00 - [4] He's not even at his computer, he's no threat Mindgames FTW!!! Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Laura Steel Minmatar Independent Interspace Industiers	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:43:00 - [5] Would it suck less if they stayed at the PC the entire time? I think a counter for cloaks is in the works, kinda remember seeing some sort of 'pulse' on sisi.. ---- Darn exclamation mark! I have brown hair, green eyes and a nice tan :)
Sir Heavy Dragonian Freelancers Academy	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:44:00 - [6] It takes some organisation to set up a cloaking snipe + dictor gang into 0.0. You don't walk through gatecamps with your 425's or 1400's all set up to snipe. And as a countermeasure there's still: A cov ops + dictor + gank-squad on let's say JUST ONE of their ships, it'll let them lose moral. They've got the patience, why doesn't your gang?
Sixtina KL	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:47:00 - [7] Edited by: Sixtina KL on 10/08/2007 22:47:27 1) Probe the cloaker's position. 2) Activate smartbombs. 3) ?????? 4) PROFIT! Problem solved. ;) __________________________________
Xanstin Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:51:00 - [8] Originally by: Sixtina KL Edited by: Sixtina KL on 10/08/2007 22:47:27 1) Probe the cloaker's position. 2) Activate smartbombs. 3) ?????? 4) PROFIT! Problem solved. ;) Right, but you can't actually do that. Probes dont find cloakers, hence people asking for cloak-finding probes.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:03:00 - [9] Originally by: coldplasma Discuss. Why is there no counter to my rivals sitting peacefully and undisturbed in their key 0.0 camped-to-hell-and-back systems mining and ratting to fuel their war machine? Oh wait, there is... -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Cipher7 OldBastardsPub SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:11:00 - [10] Nobody should be %100 safe in Eve, including Cov Ops.
Aaron	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:21:00 - [11] Welcome to the world of eve, alot of people these days only play specifically to grief other players, by sitting in systems cloaked, I think it is a very extreme tactic to use cos u never know when they are afk, if you have 5+ online pilots then u should simply ***** on, mine or rat and make sure u got a few pilots with FOF missiles, just do your best buddy and accept some losses, its the only way. I was camped in such a manner for 2 months by 1 cloaker and a few other pirates, however ive now got the combat recon, and can now camp these pirates cloaked, I have 2 accounts on 2 pc's so i can do the 1 pilot jams while the other unloads fire. You cant let these people dictate when u do your work. Think outside the box a little, u may have to stop or cut down on mining, and only rat. Gain minerals by refining what loot u get. With regard to the sniper and dictor bubble tactic, maybe u gotta send loads of ships through and just destroy everything and accept some losses, Every action has a re-action.
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:28:00 - [12] Wouldn't it be easier to summarize the suggestions from the few dozen threads on the same subject? At least folks wouldn't be rehashing the same old tired discussion. What non-game solutions have you tried to counteract the two separate issues: AFK cloaked ship and the cloaked gatecamp? What has prevented your proposed solutions from working for each issue? Is this an actual loss or only perceived loss to mining and ratting? Failure to provide this kind of information would prompt me to ask whether you prefer red or white... ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny He's not even at his computer, he's no threat Wait, you have a way of telling if he's AFK while he's cloaked? Jesus, ****, dude, tell us how!
Aaron	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:46:00 - [14] I used to sit cloaked in a cerberus, I found when I was afk for more than 15 minutes, then i click somthing i get logged off, has anyone had similar experience?
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.08.11 00:33:00 - [15] Originally by: Laura Steel Would it suck less if they stayed at the PC the entire time? As far as I know, there is no ship that can do any damage while cloaked. Maybe the Jovians have one or two up there sleeve. But as has been mentioned, a cloaked ship is NO threat Stop using macros, or trying to afk rat, and you will be fine I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.08.11 00:34:00 - [16] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny He's not even at his computer, he's no threat Wait, you have a way of telling if he's AFK while he's cloaked? Jesus, ****, dude, tell us how! It was in the thread title Sherlock I, erm, like kill things and stuff
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.08.11 00:58:00 - [17] Edited by: Dromidas Shadowmoon on 11/08/2007 00:59:00 Yes, this is a serious issue.. if you have a cloaked enemy in the system you never know whether its safe or not to turn on your AFK macros I mean, CCP should really do something about this tactic, I missed all three of my support group meetings today because I didn't want to leave the computer while my macros were running cause I didn't know whether or not he was AFK. Don't you realize how this tactic can ruin peoples lives???????????????????? It needs to be remedied! Maybe make it so you can mine and rat while cloaked, that way afk cloakers won't stop us from afk mining! /* Disclaimer This post is a dramatization of possible real life events but is not an actual representation of the poster, corp, or alliance. Opinions disclosed within the above post are not necessarily held by anyone. */
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:12:00 - [18] I agree. This needs to be fixed. The right way to fix it is to remove local. That way, no one will ever know there are AFK cloakers, so they will stop whining about it.
Dromidas Shadowmoon Minmatar 54th Knights Templar O X I D E	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:14:00 - [19] Originally by: BubbaZanetti I agree. This needs to be fixed. The right way to fix it is to remove local. That way, no one will ever know there are AFK cloakers, so they will stop whining about it. That is a great solution, I never really knew why local should always report everyone in it at all anyway. I could see it still being there for chat but it shouldn't list the occupants.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:29:00 - [20] Edited by: Rawthorm on 11/08/2007 01:33:52 So let me get this. A hostile comes into local and cloaks. He does nothing. Its not harming you in any way. You by choice choose not to go about your daily buisness because he's here. Now CCP should change the game mechanics cos you dont have the stones or inteligence to carry on about your daily buisness while you have someone in local...why exactly?
Elfaen Ethenwe Eternal Rising EternalRising	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:48:00 - [21] As leader of my alliance, i take full responsibillity for this emo like whine. No offence bud, but get used to it. You havnt seen nothing yet. As delta, your fc said, you've anoyed the wrong alliance.
Empire marketslave	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Rawthorm Edited by: Rawthorm on 11/08/2007 01:33:52 So let me get this. A hostile comes into local and cloaks. He does nothing. Its not harming you in any way. You by choice choose not to go about your daily buisness because he's here. Now CCP should change the game mechanics cos you dont have the stones or inteligence to carry on about your daily buisness while you have someone in local...why exactly? because they can goto work for 8 hours come back home eat then jump on eve see that there is a mining op/ratter and start causing havoc while that 8 hrs is going on everyone in the system has to assume that he can come back at anytime
MAD D0G Caldari Eternal Rising EternalRising	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:55:00 - [23] why do i get the felling this post was aimed at me . anyway now i no how u feel about it ill try to do it a little more often :-}
Mind's Desire	Posted - 2007.08.11 01:59:00 - [24] Why do they need a counter ? What do you want to counter ? Their inaction ? As the others have pointed out, you shouldn't be even knowing they're in your system anyways. Be glad you have your system wide AFK-Cloaker detector.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 02:15:00 - [25] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar It was in the thread title Sherlock don't be a ****ant. the entire point of an AFK cloaker is that you don't know he's AFK. He poses the same potential threat whether he's there or not.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.11 02:29:00 - [26] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Flinx Evenstar It was in the thread title Sherlock don't be a **ant. the entire point of an AFK cloaker is that you don't know he's AFK. He poses the same potential threat whether he's there or not. And that matters exactly how? Seriously, fly with friends. You are in 0.0, UNSECURED SPACE. You aren't supposed to fly blissfully afk knowing you are perfectly safe. Hell, us Empire Carebears get told to fly with friends all the time, why shouldn't you? Whining about feeling unsafe and having to worry because someone might attack you when you live in 0.0 makes us Empire Carebears seem like almighty PvPers. Heh, and they call US carebears. Deal with it. Fly with friends. Watch who you smack talk and who you turn into an enemy. Originally by:** CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.11 02:29:00 - [27] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: coldplasma Discuss. Why is there no counter to my rivals sitting peacefully and undisturbed in their key 0.0 camped-to-hell-and-back systems mining and ratting to fuel their war machine? Oh wait, there is... Ding ding ding......WINNER End of discussion Cloak probes? Ok...when local is removed . Cloak probes? OK...when the ability to fit WCS and weapons at the same time is removed Cloak probes? Ok...when static disruptor bubbles are removed from game Cloak probes? Ok...when 0.0 alliances are no longer allowed to have losec POS's Cloak probes? Ok...when cap ships are no longer allowed in losec Cloak probes? Ok...when CCP introduces a non-cap ship jump portal generator to properly open up space. MORE cake and cookies for alliances? Fuggedaboudit "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
hishlong	Posted - 2007.08.11 02:33:00 - [28] maybe thay should get rid of cloaking all together and instead of lasers guns and missiles thay should give us pillows to fight with. on a serious note if you could scan for cloaked ships then not only would it be pointless to have a cloaking device or cov op ship but it would destroy exploration as far as 0.0 is concerned. so maybe the answer is to get rid of both cloaking and scanning. go back to the old ways of doing things. and wile we are at it how bout we get rid of warp bubbles and jump to 0. lets return the game to a player matching wits against another player and not skill/equipment dependent care bear whiners. complaining about not being able to macro afk because of the guy in local thay cant scan down.
Modrak Vseth	Posted - 2007.08.11 02:37:00 - [29] Would it be better if they went AFK at a station in the system? I think that might actually be a better idea then AFK cloaking. They would know where you were, but they would want to keep tabs on you. That means either keeping someone in the station to keep an eye on you or camping the station, occupying even more people. I know you can't do any scanning or anything from within the station, but if you're doing it mostly to create unease in the system, it would be pretty effective. signature removed - please resize it to be less than 120 pixels in height - Jacques([email protected])
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:31:00 - [30] Decided to run some cosmos missions to bring a little change to the eve experience.. So I start running missions and as soon as I get to the area where I need to hack some containers a cloaked raven appears right next to the spawn container I need to get and grabs the loot so I have to wait x hours to the next cosmos mission locked container spawn.. These guys literally have it down to the microsecond.. Oh well fitting a cloak and will emulate the succesful eve players so I can compete.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:32:00 - [31] Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:24:55 Why is there no counter to cloakers who sit in your key 0.0 systems 24/7 so that noone can rat or mine? Why not? Because you're afraid that your lone barge will get blown up? Can you see a simple, logical solution here?
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:34:00 - [32] People get their rocks off by doing as little as possible to gain as much as possible. This is just another form of griefing. Whether its right or wrong in need of change is to be discussed. I personally think they are lamers... but you can call them all you want, they'll keep coming back, because they know it annoys you... and they know they are 100% safe. Show me a piewat that has balls... they are rare. That is the most this thread will reveal I'm afraid. Piewat = pathetic
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Piewat = pathetic A pirate that fights fairly is not a pirate.
Modrak Vseth	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Show me a piewat that has balls... they are rare. That is the most this thread will reveal I'm afraid. Piewat = pathetic I thought this thread was more about 0.0 fleet type activity and the effect AFK cloakers have on said fleets operations? signature removed - please resize it to be less than 120 pixels in height - Jacques([email protected])
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:43:00 - [35] Originally by: Modrak Vseth Originally by: Pithecanthropus Show me a piewat that has balls... they are rare. That is the most this thread will reveal I'm afraid. Piewat = pathetic I thought this thread was more about 0.0 fleet type activity and the effect AFK cloakers have on said fleets operations? If a randon cloaker has that much effect on a fleets operations then I'm afraid its time to shut the player run alliances and major corps down.. At least the lag will get solved minus Jita.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:45:00 - [36] Having balls, and fighting fairly are two different things. If you're going to be a piewat... don't be a lazy pathetic one.
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:48:00 - [37] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Having balls, and fighting fairly are two different things. If you're going to be a piewat... don't be a lazy pathetic one. In my book the two are pretty similar. The afk cloaker is being very smart by disrupting your operations by merely existing. That's more than you can do with a small gang. You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:51:00 - [38] Originally by: Goonie Alt Originally by: Pithecanthropus Having balls, and fighting fairly are two different things. If you're going to be a piewat... don't be a lazy pathetic one. In my book the two are pretty similar. The afk cloaker is being very smart by disrupting your operations by merely existing. That's more than you can do with a small gang. You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting. exactly... you say we lose without fighting... what gives you the right to win without fighting?
D'Insane Shatner Gallente Shatner's Toupee	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:54:00 - [39] In the interest of balance.... All those ships you Neanderthals blow up have to be made by someone. Cloaking has saved many a mining operation from being a complete Lewinski for pirates. I say leave cloaking as it is. -- http://www.shatnerology.com
WT Snacks	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Originally by: Goonie Alt Originally by: Pithecanthropus Having balls, and fighting fairly are two different things. If you're going to be a piewat... don't be a lazy pathetic one. In my book the two are pretty similar. The afk cloaker is being very smart by disrupting your operations by merely existing. That's more than you can do with a small gang. You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting. exactly... you say we lose without fighting... what gives you the right to win without fighting? Eve itself does. I can win by calling in a massive mercenary force and have your corp surrender. There, I won without a single blow. This case is different. You have a choise, and you choose to surrender without a fight. It's your call.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:56:00 - [41] Originally by: D'Insane Shatner In the interest of balance.... All those ships you Neanderthals blow up have to be made by someone. Cloaking has saved many a mining operation from being a complete Lewinski for pirates. I say leave cloaking as it is. claoking is fine... its the way its abused thats the problem. AFK cloaking... you get it?
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:57:00 - [42] Originally by: WT Snacks Eve itself does. I can win by calling in a massive mercenary force and have your corp surrender. There, I won without a single blow. This case is different. You have a choise, and you choose to surrender without a fight. It's your call. nice... you get the award for the biggest stretch of the year. ***
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 03:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Goonie Alt You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting. The problem is that there is no counter to the AFK cloaker. Any cloaked ship in a safe spot is untouchable.
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:00:00 - [44] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goonie Alt You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting. The problem is that there is no counter to the AFK cloaker. Any cloaked ship in a safe spot is untouchable. It also can't touch you. Why people don't realize this, we'll never know.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:02:00 - [45] Originally by: WT Snacks Eve itself does. I can win by calling in a massive mercenary force and have your corp surrender. There, I won without a single blow. So A level 4 mission alt spamming - bugged 10/10 exploration plex running corp hires a real pvp corp to do their bidding and pwns the sovereignty game.. More power to you.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Pithecanthropus	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:06:00 - [46] Originally by: Goonie Alt Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goonie Alt You can either learn to counter it or keep losing without even fighting. The problem is that there is no counter to the AFK cloaker. Any cloaked ship in a safe spot is untouchable. It also can't touch you. Why people don't realize this, we'll never know. Okay, so if it can't touch you... why do you put it there and walk away for 8 hours? What's the reason? Oh wait... you are doing it for something... right?
Goonie Alt	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:08:00 - [47] Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: WT Snacks Eve itself does. I can win by calling in a massive mercenary force and have your corp surrender. There, I won without a single blow. So A level 4 mission alt spamming - bugged 10/10 exploration plex running corp hires a real pvp corp to do their bidding and pwns the sovereignty game.. More power to you.. Is this an oblique reference to BoB or am I missing something here?
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:09:00 - [48] Originally by: Goonie Alt Originally by: Dred'Pirate Jesus Originally by: WT Snacks Eve itself does. I can win by calling in a massive mercenary force and have your corp surrender. There, I won without a single blow. So A level 4 mission alt spamming - bugged 10/10 exploration plex running corp hires a real pvp corp to do their bidding and pwns the sovereignty game.. More power to you.. Is this an oblique reference to BoB or am I missing something here? Nope.. Not missing a thing.. Long Live Eve.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:14:00 - [49] Originally by: Goonie Alt It also can't touch you. Why people don't realize this, we'll never know. Yes it can. Its mere presence is enough to stop all carebear activity. Aside from that, there's always the risk it can uncloak and attack something. This could happen at any time, hence the stoppage of all carebear activities. I myself have done this from time to time - staying cloaked in an enemy outpost system for hours at a time, occasionally scanning the belts and popping any idiots passing by. There could be nothing done about it, and if i chose to not decloak and potentially spring a trap - i could never be touched and the system could never be used.
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.08.11 05:42:00 - [50] Originally by: Pithecanthropus Okay, so if it can't touch you... why do you put it there and walk away for 8 hours? What's the reason? Oh wait... you are doing it for something... right? Yes. It's done because you're using local as an all powerful intelligence tool. It's not supposed to be that. We'd like it removed. But there's incessant whining about keeping it, and, for the moment, it's still here. So, we've adapted, and figured out how to use local as a tool against you. Which of course causes nothing but an epic whine cascade, because rather than adapt yourselves, you'd rather just see everything nerfed.
Vrizuh Eve Defence Force Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.11 07:32:00 - [51] I have 2 covert ops pilots and I don't care if a counter is added. The whiners aren't saying they want a carebear safe universe. They're saying they want to engage/interact/pvp with someone else who is online. Its the cloakers who sit around all day doing 0 with complete immunity that need to be dealt with. The ability to remain cloaked all day is fine of course. The ability to remain safe whilst undocked and at work? B/S. That sucks. At least put a timeout on the client so you can't afk for more than 1 hour. Or let covert ops pilot seek out the other covert ops pilot.
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.11 07:47:00 - [52] Quote: Seriously, fly with friends. You are in 0.0, UNSECURED SPACE. You aren't supposed to fly blissfully afk knowing you are perfectly safe. Hell, us Empire Carebears get told to fly with friends all the time, why shouldn't you? Whining about feeling unsafe and having to worry because someone might attack you when you live in 0.0 makes us Empire Carebears seem like almighty PvPers. Heh, and they call US carebears. Deal with it. Fly with friends. Watch who you smack talk and who you turn into an enemy. Now apply every argument you just made, and apply it to cloakers.... They arnt just flying blissfully in UNSECURED space. They are flying blissfully through ENEMY unsecured space AFK, knowing they are perfectly safe. I meen hell, you Empire carebears get told to fly with friends all the time... why should afk cloakers in harsh 0.0 be any different? And to the person that said use probes, and smartbombs. 2 problems.... 1) cloakers cant be probed....duh. 2) Smartbombs DONT REMOVE CLOAK...try it with a friend befor you post, it makes you look less foolish if you know of what you speak.
Naate Minmatar The Elear Eastern Star Federation	Posted - 2007.08.11 07:53:00 - [53] I think one of the main reasons Local still exists is that without it, the sense of it being an online game with other people out there that exist outside your own alliance/corp is lost to quite a high degree. The universe suddenly becomes devoid of activity all over - perception-wise, anyway - other than 'those annoying gits afk outside the station getting in your way' you bump into from time to time. To those without a corp, the question of, 'Why not play a single player game instead?' will rear it's head. Further the contrast felt between travelling through the busy hub sectors compared to that of periphial 0.0 would be lost to a large degree. All opinion of course, and just my thoughts on the matter. Even all that said I do agree that Local is a far more powerful tool than it was perhaps originally intended. Perhaps forcing local into 'Recent talkers' mode rather than instant update of all people in system, but still maintain an up to date and current player count within the system. Local hubs will still be what they are today, a hustle of chatter throughout the system, whereas the quieter systems will be.. well.. quiet. Can't account for every player in your system? Better bust out the probes! If that change or something similar is made, I think it fair enough that probes have a chance of finding cloaked ships. If not, it's best things remain as they stand. --- IGB Corp Sites
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.08.11 09:19:00 - [54] Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:24:55 Why is there no counter to cloakers who sit in your key 0.0 systems 24/7 so that noone can rat or mine? Why is there no sort of compromise to putting yourself on the front line right amongst the enemy forces? They nerf the NOS because they think it is overpowered, but as it stands, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of these people. The ability to cloak and never be caught means that tactics that some corps use can never be defeated without some sheer luck. Tactics such as sitting a few snipers 239km off a gate cloaked and putting a cloaking dictor on the gate so that when anybody jumps in, the dictor drops a bubble, the person can't escape and thus the snipers have all the time in the world to uncloak and lock them and pop them. The snipers either then recloak or warp off to a safespot and cloak so that no gang, no matter how big it is, has a chance of catching them. There NEEDS to be some sort of way to get around this, maybe by using specialised probes to find them. Discuss. SO lets change the way the game works because you dont like ppl AFK cloaking. Grow-up.
CaldariAdam	Posted - 2007.08.11 09:48:00 - [55] There is no counter because any probe or scan would kill off force recons. An afk-timer is sure to come in one of the next big patches.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.11 09:51:00 - [56] It does occur to ask the following of the OP: How many times have you lost a ship to a cloaked attacker? Thats right...ZERO Although I would not object to an AFK timeout-leave covops and recons alone please. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Demonor Gallente Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.08.11 10:48:00 - [57] sigh Simple solution if it was implemented. Forget Cloak probing because then people will whine and dine about that. Solution? Just make Cloaking device drain caps just like every other active device Make Sense? YES YES. HE cant use cap booster because while being cloaked he cant activate any other mods. So Will have to unlcloak sooner or later thats when you nab him. I dont see why they didnt think of this in the beginning.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:05:00 - [58] Originally by: CaldariAdam There is no counter because any probe or scan would kill off force recons. You've never tried probing down a force recon, have you? You almost always end up 30km+ away from them. Add in some difficulty for being cloaked, and you're talking landed 60km+ away from them. As long as the pilot is not AFK, he will see this and warp away. That, or simply orbit you at 10km, loling all the way. Bear in mind they would be probable, but not scannable, so there would be no instant jump to the most accurate probes. You'd have to spend time narrowing their location down, during which time, any legitimate cloaker would have bounced through 16 different safespots. Only AFKers would be affected. Originally by: RuleoftheBone How many times have you lost a ship to a cloaked attacker? Thats right...ZERO Don't be an arse. The problem is not losing ships. Try reading the thread. (Speaking of which - is it just me, or are the only people who are opposed to any changes those who are not in a position of holding 0.0 territory? Its not that i've got anything against that, the likes of Veto do what they do and do it well, but how, with no experience of the situation, can they comment on it?)
Alakazam Bob The Builder Breidablik	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:14:00 - [59] Originally by: Cipher7 Nobody should be %100 safe in Eve, including Cov Ops. Yes!!!! Let's remove docking!!!!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:22:00 - [60] AFK cloaking in a system is an amazing tactic employed by many to tie up enemy resources... One way to counter such a ploy is to have a friendly Arazu pilot in system or nearby that can come to your aid at a moments notice, damp the hostile, and get you both to safety. Recons as a general rule don't have the DPS to kill someone before help can arrive. Alternatively, have some protection sat next to you if you're that worried! This is 0.0, not Hello Kitty World... There are risks, get over it! If you don't want the risk of being attacked in your system, either go and macro-mine in empire, or find a new game. Besides, you're in IAC, isn't one of your mottos 'Strength In Numbers'? It was when I used to fight you guys... Not as bad as some, but 3:2 ratios weren't uncommon. Surely you have members in the same system that can hop in combat ships and help you out? Latest Video, Click Here!
EveJoker Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:23:00 - [61] Edited by: EveJoker on 11/08/2007 11:25:36 Edited by: EveJoker on 11/08/2007 11:23:59 To the OP This is a laugh, your complaining about a tactic that both IAC and CVA used heavily on UK, and still use to this day? I belive we managed to tempt your recons and coverts out with tastey bait (haulers). If they dont take the bait their probably AFK and who cares. Perhaps you could try doing what UK did, unless you get some enjoyment out of forum posts. ps bwhahahahahahahahahahahahah ha ha
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:23:00 - [62] Edited by: Esk Esme on 11/08/2007 11:27:48 YAAAAAWN another crieying** shut the hell up adapt we dont spend weeks of our payed acoutn time to get to good covert/recon skills to have some criying about it all the time WTF u ppl want EVE to b stagnent ppl train and use this skill time ( wich is payed for ) just liek your EvE time so go nerf your own crap OMFG EvE full of pu55y's ITS NOT SUPOSED TO B EASY no i dont look at keybord when i type if u cant adapt join them i dont agree with cloaking in plexes /cozmos/exploration but as far as cloakign in a system to disrupt enemy isk making is a valid tactic been done for ages get used to it if u feel that strongly get a gang go rat in 2's mine with friends u greedy fk's instead of soloing it wtf all the NERF'S NERF the crying****'s in eve
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:25:00 - [63] Originally by: Esk Esme stuff Don't you look at your keyboard when you type? Have you read the thread? There is no way to adapt. There is no counter to a cloaked ship. If anything, allowing cloaked ships to be probable would reduce the stagnancy, as it would make the lives of recon pilots more... interesting.
Tommy TenKreds Caldari Animal.	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:33:00 - [64] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Goonie Alt It also can't touch you. Why people don't realize this, we'll never know. Yes it can. Its mere presence is enough to stop all carebear activity. Aside from that, there's always the risk it can uncloak and attack something. This could happen at any time, hence the stoppage of all carebear activities. So let me get this straight. You're saying:- Single (AFK?) cloaker = risk = cease all "carebear" activity WTF?? Risk should be everywhere in Eve. Fly with mates or risk losing the odd ship to a cloaker that actually engages. Try:- Mining in a herd with guards Having your own gang camp the station you run missions out of Ofc this requires organization to run mining, ratting or mission running as corp/ alliance ops. I've seen some corps do this very well, where 30 pilots enter a dead end system, close down the gates, camp the NPC stations and then a dozen of them mission ***** for a few hours while everyone else logs off.
Weer Treyt	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:38:00 - [65] It is guerrilla warfare and thus perfectly in the scope of this game, especially in alliance dominated 0.0 space. Weer Treyt
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.08.11 11:50:00 - [66] If anything, allowing cloaked ships to be probable would reduce the stagnancy, as it would make the lives of recon pilots more... interesting. Bull sh!t m8 our lives r intresting enough if u could prob a cloak WTF would b the point in skillign for recon/covert just coz a few 0.0 carebare's cant mine/rat they favourate system BOOHOO BOOHOO go cry u pu55y's find a new system GET A GANG GOING thats how u adapt to cloak u f**k wit a cloaker lot less likly to decloak and attack if u have fire power with you liek an inty has speed for tank/ a bs has shield/ammor/structure as tank a cloaker has cloak for tank or shall we all put our guns away go buy each other a drink in jita and get the mining lazer's out oh btw any self proclaimed english teacher u more than welcome to point out my typeing error's as im sure it will boost your ego mwhahahaha if u need it boosting go get a life
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:04:00 - [67] Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Having your own gang camp the station you run missions out of Missions? I'm sorry - do we look like peasants from the outer ring? And to whoever said move on: Give me a way to pick up an outpost and bring that along with me and great, yeah, i'll happily move to keep the carebears safe. Quote: Risk should be everywhere in Eve. Fly with mates or risk losing the odd ship to a cloaker that actually engages. Risk is everywhere. However, risk is not a fixed quantity. Being in an empty system, or a system filled with blues is low-risk (still at risk to a fast nanoship, logonski or the rats). Being in a system with a neutral or hostile instantly increases that risk exponentially. Carebearing with a hostile in system does not happen. When that hostile cannot be removed, carebearing never starts again, and your entire system is made useless for your carebears by a single alt in a cloaked ship.
Trent NowImNothing	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:07:00 - [68] The whole point of your post is you want a way to find a cloaked ship. Can you see the flaw in that? Hell the only way you know their might be someone cloaked somewhere in the system is the local chat . (thats there for convenience) Local wasn't meant for you to use has a make shift scanning device to tell who's in the system. I'm sitting here trying to figure out why a way to counter a cloaker ...... Maybe try skilling cloak yourself? then if you're attacked you can cloak. The only problem I can see is Local chat should be fixed to where you can't see who's in the system as someone already suggested.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:09:00 - [69] stop with these afk cloak threads ffs. The counter to him being in local is the locals working as a team, yeah his pilgrim can **** you up if he uncloaks 10km away from your while you're tackling a triple spawn, so NPC in a gang with the locals, moment he uncloaks concentrate on tanking and wait for your buddys to come in and kill him. Comparable threads to afk cloaker threads: "omg nerf camping bottleneck systems" "why can't i warp when in bubble ffs?" "he shouldn't be able to kill me in that ship my ship should rock" "nerf bumping, wcs reign supreme" "pls put ark in kisogo, 0.0 is mean" ---
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:10:00 - [70] another idea, use a different system to mine in. ---
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:11:00 - [71] Quote: Carebearing with a hostile in system does not happen. When that hostile cannot be removed, carebearing never starts again, and your entire system is made useless for your carebears by a single alt in a cloaked ship. Mate, you and your buddies totally lose my respect.
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:18:00 - [72] its allways about the damn carbare's what about the pvper for a change comon for f**k sake we dont care anymore come to think of it we never did ic ant mine coz tere a cloaker here MWHAHAHAHA GOOD THEN WE R DOIGN OUR JOB
Jeats Cheats Minmatar Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:31:00 - [73] Edited by: Jeats Cheats on 11/08/2007 12:33:16 Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:24:55 Why is there no counter to cloakers who sit in your key 0.0 systems 24/7 so that noone can rat or mine? Why is there no sort of compromise to putting yourself on the front line right amongst the enemy forces? It isn't so much fun when your tactics are turned against your alliance is it? I think I better afk now
Telemicus Thrace Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:36:00 - [74] I think I'll have to open with LMFAO - OMFG - No wai!!! IAC crying about AFK cloakers, I thought it was a joke when I heard about this. IAC and CVA did this to us for weeks on end. We adapted, your turn! LMFAO, sorry, this made my day. No, week. I'll never forget the last time 3 IAC cloakers decided to have a go at my 'AFK, on AP honest guv" Cyclone. Fun times, I had a laugh watching your boys run. Don't tarnish it with this now someone is using your own tricks against you. >> RECRUITING <<
Jon Hawkes The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:37:00 - [75] IAC crying about AFK cloakers...? Boo bloody hoo.
steamy The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:37:00 - [76] Good comedy factor post coming from an alliance that has been doing the exact same thing to others for a few months now. Join the club Steamy
JaffaCake	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:44:00 - [77] Um, AFK cloakers? Remove local then you won't know they're there
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:47:00 - [78] This thread is up there with that crap " nerf sensor damps thread " and ultimately it fails on every level to deliver -just like the crap about sensor damps. Theres more important things to fix in EVE that ******* cloakers and if you cant see that FAOD > WOW.
Kimiko Kurosawa The Krugerrand Groupies	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:49:00 - [79] Wow, this craze for wanting nerfs has gotten so out of hand they want to nerf people that aren't even there!
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:15:00 - [80] Edited by: Elmicker on 11/08/2007 13:16:11 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Mate, you and your buddies totally lose my respect. For what? For being careful with our industry and ratting ships? If you rat in a system with a hostile in, you will lose your ship. You might get lucky and survive once or twice, but you WILL lose your ship. NPC'ing in a gang will just cause the entire gang to lose their ships. A well piloted pilgrim or two could easily take on 4-5 ratting ravens and come out without a scratch. When a hostile enters system, you must immediately move to counter him. This means changing to PvP ships and setting up traps and camps. However, these do not work. The cloaker gains nothing from springing the trap and is achieving his objectives simply by being there. Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Get over yourself. You think you're too leet to run missions but you divide your own alliance into carebears and non-carebears and then won't send people out if there's a single hostile in local. Pluuh..eeese! Again with the assumptions. You assumed we (hypothetical we, i'm no longer a regular 0.0 resident) were running missions in backwater NPC 0.0. You assume we're split into carebears and non-carebears. You assume we don't ever leave the station at a hint of a hostile. The reverse is true - AFK cloakers are effective because people do try to respond. However, NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO COUNTER THEM. NOTHING. (edit: this is assuming the AFK cloaker isn't a member of IAC) The result is a single alt, with 0 effort and close to 0 cost, can tie up entire gangs for hours at a time, and grind all money making to a halt. This is imbalanced.
Trent NowImNothing	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:29:00 - [81] Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 11/08/2007 13:16:11 Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Mate, you and your buddies totally lose my respect. For what? For being careful with our industry and ratting ships? If you rat in a system with a hostile in, you will lose your ship. You might get lucky and survive once or twice, but you WILL lose your ship. NPC'ing in a gang will just cause the entire gang to lose their ships. A well piloted pilgrim or two could easily take on 4-5 ratting ravens and come out without a scratch. When a hostile enters system, you must immediately move to counter him. This means changing to PvP ships and setting up traps and camps. However, these do not work. The cloaker gains nothing from springing the trap and is achieving his objectives simply by being there. Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Get over yourself. You think you're too leet to run missions but you divide your own alliance into carebears and non-carebears and then won't send people out if there's a single hostile in local. Pluuh..eeese! Again with the assumptions. You assumed we (hypothetical we, i'm no longer a regular 0.0 resident) were running missions in backwater NPC 0.0. You assume we're split into carebears and non-carebears. You assume we don't ever leave the station at a hint of a hostile. The reverse is true - AFK cloakers are effective because people do try to respond. However, NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO COUNTER THEM. NOTHING. (edit: this is assuming the AFK cloaker isn't a member of IAC) The result is a single alt, with 0 effort and close to 0 cost, can tie up entire gangs for hours at a time, and grind all money making to a halt. This is imbalanced. OMMFG .... CCP wanted it this way .. you're using local chat in a way that shouldn't be used .... wtf ... all money making grinds to a hault because you're too *** to go out and make some with 1 covert op ship sitting afk in cloak ... here's an idea .... try ratting in your pvp ship .... or better yet why not just ask CCP to just straight out pay you isk so you don't have to ubdock from the station ... get some balls and stop being such a *** ffs.
Shurikane	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:42:00 - [82] Go Elmicker go. :D Here's one for those who love to play the risk card: the cloaker safespots, cloaks, and then all he needs to do is wait. Risk: nil. If you make it past the gatecamps along the way, which isn't terribly difficult to do, then you can park your ship there for the rest of your life and never have to worry about ever getting popped. Next strategy: cloaker safespots, scans the area once in a while and prods the lone defenseless ships that pass by. Risk: proportional to the ship you attack (cloaker mining crystal II!) This allows the cloaker to pressure the enemy and let them know that you are actually at the keyboard and may attack at any moment. Once you've set up the mindset in your enemy, then you can AFK for a whole week and they'll still believe you may spring to life whenever you find a target you can take on. Now for the defense side. A ship goes ratting or mining. Risk: depends on your ability to handle the rats. Next, ship goes ratting or mining with an enemy cloaker in system. Risk: from zero to 100%. Let's assume the cloaker is Korean and is able to sit at his keyboard without food, water or pitstop for an infinite amount of time. The defender has to work alongside the idea that somebody may be watching his every move and waiting for him to show a weakness. In practice, warp core stabilizers can do the trick most of the time as an escape plan. But now the other problem: this cloaker can spy on you, completely undetected. He'll know where you mine, how you rat, what kind of ships you and your corp flies, how many of you there are in the system on average, etc. Coordinate this with a gank squad, and this person can mount a lightning-fast attack on, say, a mining op, while remaining outside of all harm, himself. In practice, again, most of the time, your alliance mates will yell that there's an enemy gang incoming (supposing you don't work along the very edge of your sovereignty) and you'll have the time to warp to POS. Still, something doesn't add up. There is someone out there, in your system, who is able to gain a sizeable advantage on his enemy without any risk involved. How to solve that? I have no idea. I'm not a cloaker; all I can do is read the posts and answer to the best of what I know already about cloaking. I won't formally propose a solution, but my first reaction is that the idle-time disconnect is a good idea worth discussing further (in this case, taking into assumption local chat is here to stay). All I can say is that there is a problem with cloakers working in a riskless environment, and the defending side has no way to at the very least disrupt the cloaker's activities unless said cloaker starts moving around and generating pew pew. And if that cloaker chooses not to move (or worse, smacktalks in local to prove he's physically there) then the defenders have a problem on their hands, and this problem has no solution at the moment.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:54:00 - [83] Originally by: Trent NowImNothing OMMFG .... CCP wanted it this way .. you're using local chat in a way that shouldn't be used .... So? It's there, it's part of the game. If it's ever removed (hope not), then it'll likely be replaced by a POS-based system that does exactly the same thing. Situation is the same no matter the intelligence tool. Quote: wtf ... all money making grinds to a hault because you're too *** to go out and make some with 1 covert op ship sitting afk in cloak ... no, the ratting grinds to a halt because we go out into pvp ships thinking "Ah, great, a hostile, a fight!!" only to then waste 3 hours trying to probe down something we have no chance of finding. Quote: here's an idea .... try ratting in your pvp ship .... lol. Quote: or better yet why not just ask CCP to just straight out pay you isk so you don't have to ubdock from the station ... get some balls and stop being such a * ffs. I'm a *** for asking a way to hunt down and kill a hostile that's entered my space? Impeccable logic, there.
EveJoker Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:59:00 - [84] Sorry I just have to say once more: BWHahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahaah
Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:07:00 - [85] Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 11/08/2007 14:07:53 imho there should be a timelimit of how long you can stay cloaked in a system where someone else holds sov. put a cloaker in an enemies system, and you WILL reduce the isk generated there, maybe only marginally, but it will happen. at zero risk, during the whole time. this is wrong, and everybody that says otherwise is just deliberately bein a *****, and knows it, too. i have spoken Only you can save mmorpgs - Stop crying for nerfs today!
JaffaCake	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:19:00 - [86] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 11/08/2007 14:07:53 imho there should be a timelimit of how long you can stay cloaked in a system where someone else holds sov. Oooh I know!!!1, a POS module of some description that emits regular cloak disrupting pulses thoughout the whole system! Of course it should need some degree of constellation sov to actually use and would affect _all_ cloaked ships.
Traxio Nacho Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:25:00 - [87] With all due respect to the OP i'm sure your npcers and isk farmers wouldn't be too amused if they could be probed out
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:51:00 - [88] Tommy - Have you ever actually lived in conquered 0.0? You seem to not have a clue what you're talking about.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:53:00 - [89] Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 11/08/2007 14:54:06 Originally by: Elmicker Tommy - Have you ever actually lived in conquered 0.0? You seem to not have a clue what you're talking about. Feel free to tell me where I'm wrong. You've done a crap job so far. The problem seems to me to be the "my space" mindset you have. You talk about your outpost and sovereignty like that should give you the indefatigable right to send out unprotected miners into 0.0 like it was Jita. The problem is you man.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:00:00 - [90] So, that's a no? All your posturing and telling me to defend our ratters and miners is based off pure guesswork? Let me put it this way. Blue/empty local = safe to rat Neutral/red local = Form pvp gang. AFK cloaker = neutral/red in local = form pvp gang = no ratting, no mining. There are no variables in this. No "Defending your miners." Everyone is either in a PvP gang, or they are docked/in a POS. This is how conventional 0.0 operates. Not operating this way results in dozens of dead mining barges and ratting ravens, and no number of defense gangs or ratting with friends will stop that.
Tommy TenKreds Animal Mercantile Executive Animal.	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:10:00 - [91] Originally by: Elmicker So, that's a no? All your posturing and telling me to defend our ratters and miners is based off pure guesswork? Let me put it this way. Blue/empty local = safe to rat Neutral/red local = Form pvp gang. AFK cloaker = neutral/red in local = form pvp gang = no ratting, no mining. There are no variables in this. No "Defending your miners." Everyone is either in a PvP gang, or they are docked/in a POS. This is how conventional 0.0 operates. Not operating this way results in dozens of dead mining barges and ratting ravens, and no number of defense gangs or ratting with friends will stop that. If you want to know where I live you have to find out for yourself. Only a fool takes silence as confirmation. As for your notion of "This is how conventional 0.0 operates", that's just bs. If your conventions mean you are failing, they need to change, not the game.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:11:00 - [92] I found a more appropriate reply to the one I had before: Latest Video, Click Here!
End Yourself Core Domination Big Bang Quantum	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:19:00 - [93] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn @OP: Adapt or go play Hello Kitty Online! Lots of good suggestions in this thread allready, you just chose to ignore them and whine instead. --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:20:00 - [94] Originally by: Empire marketslave Originally by: Rawthorm Edited by: Rawthorm on 11/08/2007 01:33:52 So let me get this. A hostile comes into local and cloaks. He does nothing. Its not harming you in any way. You by choice choose not to go about your daily buisness because he's here. Now CCP should change the game mechanics cos you dont have the stones or inteligence to carry on about your daily buisness while you have someone in local...why exactly? because they can goto work for 8 hours come back home eat then jump on eve see that there is a mining op/ratter and start causing havoc while that 8 hrs is going on everyone in the system has to assume that he can come back at anytime Then you should guard your mining ops...
SchirmerN Amarr WKK Inc. United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:39:00 - [95] Originally by: Elmicker So, that's a no? All your posturing and telling me to defend our ratters and miners is based off pure guesswork? Let me put it this way. Blue/empty local = safe to rat Neutral/red local = Form pvp gang. AFK cloaker = neutral/red in local = form pvp gang = no ratting, no mining. There are no variables in this. No "Defending your miners." Everyone is either in a PvP gang, or they are docked/in a POS. This is how conventional 0.0 operates. Not operating this way results in dozens of dead mining barges and ratting ravens, and no number of defense gangs or ratting with friends will stop that. FreeFall Securities How about getting some Securities around your own miners
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:43:00 - [96] Edited by: Awox on 11/08/2007 15:43:36 IDIOT'S GUIDE TO PVP HARDENING THEIR PVE VESSEL 1. fit a cap injector Your tank will hold up no matter how many NOS that pilgrim has. Also, you will survive against popular npc ganking platforms like ishtars/domis/myrmidons. 2. fit a smart bomb Most recons use drones heavily, deploy your drones and wait for his to come into range, then scoop yours and activate smartbomb. Instantly the aggressor has lost a majority of his DPS. 3. fit a sensor booster If you insist on NPCing when you have noone around to help you out of a jam or you are in a corp full of pansies that wont assist you if you need it, a sensor booster might give you a chance to lock a non-arazu recon with damps. You'll have a better chance to fight him off. 4. fit a heavy nosferatu (or neut) Will get interceptors off your back, and if you can lock the recon, it will get him off your back too. If you are really desperate you can NOS an NPC that will probably be close enough for you to lock if you cannot lock your attacker. 5. don't pimp it up This isn't really that important. But don't be stupid, if the enemies discover you fit really expensive implants/modules or you NPC in carriers often they will try extra hard to gank you. this will attrack more aggressors lookin' for a good score. Now that I've helped the carebears prepare for hardening their ships for fending of aggressors, wonder where the fun in afk-cloaking is? Here it is: AFK-CLOAKING ADVICE 1. Bring a second character or friend you can keep near-by in a ship with possibly logged out a lot of DPS and/or cap warfare. Commands, HACs and tier2 BCs are very well suited for this purpose. 2. get a portable gaming console Sometimes when there isn't a lot of traffic I like to play my gameboy or psp, with a small timer that ticks every 1.5 minutes reminding me to look at my screen. 3. read a book an exciting book will keep you entertained and alert, remember to get an egg timer or something to make sure you keep watch on your character(s) 4. browse the www Now, when I am too tired to play my DS, don't have a good book near-by, or am simply feeling lazy(tee-hee) I browse the WWW. My favourites include: break.com, YouTube, The Register, http://www.slashdot.org"/]slashdot[/url] and The Onion 5. take a nap if you are tired. Because be honest, why else did you train up for that cloak? - ccp <3 ISK sellers boost dictors (a bit!) remotely destroy JCs
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.08.11 15:57:00 - [97] by the look of ppl's response i personaly think ppl have had a it with all the PVP/PVE combat mod's nerf's these mods have been just nerfed not thought about just squashed take nano's/istab/overdrive nerf as i agree the BS should not b able to fly at 6k lmfao BUT the inty /AF /Dictor /Hac other small killing machines should not IMHO b effected by such nerf they r in essence ment to b awsoem speed think b4 nerf have the nerf to said ship's I.E BS.BC. COMAND /and bigger ( in nano case ) this nos nerf WTF r u crazy we want pwnage machines man gives us somthing to fight and fight in like any pwnage machine and other pvp ship they have a time and place for use u can counter ship's nos bout orbit outside nos range pop drone's / cloaker u get a lock and and scram or insta pop he dead / nano bird u get web's he dead / sniper bubble or tckler warp to he dead the super cap ship's needed a nerf tbh no ship should b invincable or invunrable there is a way to pop every ship and should b but also the art of war/combat my friend we test our ship's in the field they all pop sooner or later but no need to nerf all the time so comon ppl give it a break
Ranar Estraad	Posted - 2007.08.11 16:22:00 - [98] I mentioned this before, and I will mention it again because I think it is a rather interesting parralel that no one seems to recognize. I am going to describe 2 scenarios, their effects and their consequences. They are both completely identical, yet one is considered fair gameplay and the other is currently being attacked and screeched at for a nerf. Situation 1 You have buisness to do in a nearby system. You fly through your stargates until you come to the last one. You look on the map and switch it to "show shps destroyed in the last hour." The system you're going to has had a dozen ships destoryed. You don't have an alt account, you don't have friends logged in to help. You don't know if those people in the system with the 12 destoryed ships are still there. Are they in a gate camp? Are they hostile? Have they left and this is just old info? You don't want to risk losing your ship and you decide that the best course of action would be to not go into the system and do your buisness. Situation 2 You have buisness to do in a nearby system. You fly through your stargates until you reach your destination. You look at the local channel. The system you're in has one other guy in local, but you can't scan him out, therefore he is cloaked You don't have an alt account, you don't have friends logged in to help. Is he actually at his computer? Is he hostile? Has he left his computer to go about his daily routines like work or errands? You don't want to risk losing your ship and you decide the best course of action would be to not stay in this system and do your buisness. In Situation 1, I have described a gate camp. In situation 2, I have described an AFK cloaker. Both situation cause the same kind of panic and stress to the player, as both of them cause some sort of unknown factor. And in both situations the only real way to prevent it is to form a gang and go through the gate camp ready for whatever is on the other side, or to form a gang and protect yourself in the AFK guy's system ready for whenever he decides to return. Now tell me, based on the logic above that both situations cause essentially the same outcome, how one is considered fair and we should live with it and "get used to it" and the other is something that you believe needs to be fixed, nerfed or otherwise taken care of so you can feel safer? I'm not quite sure I follow, becuase the solution you would offer for the gate camp seems to be an applicable solution to the cloaker: "form a gang and be ready for whatever awaits."
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.11 17:26:00 - [99] because they haven't officially been told to shut up and stop whining about it yet by ccp? also someone mentioned that a afk cloaker isnt having to gang up, i propose we all afk cloak in pairs now! 2 afk cloakers to every system! Real men fly Pink. I've been living in your cassette, It's the modern equivalent, singing up to a Capulet, on a balcony in
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.11 17:44:00 - [100] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 11/08/2007 17:52:06 Originally by: Elmicker (Speaking of which - is it just me, or are the only people who are opposed to any changes those who are not in a position of holding 0.0 territory? Its not that i've got anything against that, the likes of Veto do what they do and do it well, but how, with no experience of the situation, can they comment on it?) Check my actual corp history. Prior to Veto I lived in Omist with RNAL followed by every battle with UKC/LV from F4R2 right thru the final LV retreat from Detoroid. I have seen the best of the AFK cloakers (Burn Eden come to mind) and do you know what? Only the inattentive got jacked...or those that ignored intel channels....or those that ratted solo while ignoring local etc ad naseum. You just want more CAKE...your own little special world where nothing bad can ever happen to you and you can be free to grind ISK or mine ore without any risk at all. Get over it already and don't make false assumptions regarding other pilots experience. It's alliance pilots like you that tempt me to go to your system and sit in there with a cloaked Rifter and go walk the dog and have a nice swim KNOWING that my presence makes you nervous. But I personally don't do that...I have better things to do with my game time. This thread makes me laugh...a lot. EDIT...oh yeah...I forgot...I also lived in Fountain with UKC and flew with the excellent folks from F4T4L just before joining Veto. There...are you fully satisfied that I have more than enough experience to comment on this issue? Good. Now get back to your mining barge...not that there is anything wrong with mining of course . "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the ** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.11 18:40:00 - [101] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn AFK cloaking in a system is an amazing tactic employed by many to tie up enemy resources... One way to counter such a ploy is to have a friendly Arazu pilot in system or nearby that can come to your aid at a moments notice, damp the hostile, and get you both to safety. Recons as a general rule don't have the DPS to kill someone before help can arrive. Alternatively, have some protection sat next to you if you're that worried! This is 0.0, not Hello Kitty World... There are risks, get over it! If you don't want the risk of being attacked in your system, either go and macro-mine in empire, or find a new game. Besides, you're in IAC, isn't one of your mottos 'Strength In Numbers'? It was when I used to fight you guys... Not as bad as some, but 3:2 ratios weren't uncommon. Surely you have members in the same system that can hop in combat ships and help you out? Name for me another way to negativly effect an enemies income, while AFK other than cloaking? The key words here in these arguments is "AFK" I dont thing anyone hear wants cloakers nerfed or made useless. Just for their ability to accomplish their goal while not even playing the game needs nerfed. All of the people saying all these counter measures to AFK cloakers... thats our point exactly. We are supposed to do all these things to protect miners anr ratters, from somone who may be at work or at a movie. Thats broken. Its NOT broken that they can cloak in our 0.0 systems, scout around, report intel, or engauge lone ships.
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:15:00 - [102] *Don't* be the only NPC'er in system - gang up, chain a belt each, and warp to each other when someone yells for help. *Don't* NPC in a crappy setup - use a PVP one if you can *Don't* leave your mining barges alone, fat and vulnerable in a belt - form up into big mining ops with some firepower on station - they can shoot the rats while the miners mine. *Don't* panic and loose your head - it's just one bloody ship for crying out loud. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:27:00 - [103] Originally by: Gabriel Karade *Don't* be the only NPC'er in system - gang up, chain a belt each, and warp to each other when someone yells for help. *Don't* NPC in a crappy setup - use a PVP one if you can *Don't* leave your mining barges alone, fat and vulnerable in a belt - form up into big mining ops with some firepower on station - they can shoot the rats while the miners mine. *Don't* panic and loose your head - it's just one bloody ship for crying out loud. *Don't* pause (cloak) the game and go AFK in hostile territory so you can hinder your enemy while you arnt even home.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:45:00 - [104] Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:31:48 Originally by: Sir Heavy To become part of local, is a pirates most fierced weapon. Gotta love it when you use it on your enemy. Yeh, k, not when you want to rat in peace... It's not just about ratting in peace. If anything is wrong, I think it is being able to sit in an enemy home system and quite happily sit there all day while you run away to go shopping, watch TV, do what you gotta do, etc. And the fact that the enemy know they are there and know there is nothing they can do is only the extra kick in the balls. Removing local would be better, the cloaker would have to do something to get information about locals
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:45:00 - [105] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 11/08/2007 19:46:02 Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Gabriel Karade *Don't* be the only NPC'er in system - gang up, chain a belt each, and warp to each other when someone yells for help. *Don't* NPC in a crappy setup - use a PVP one if you can *Don't* leave your mining barges alone, fat and vulnerable in a belt - form up into big mining ops with some firepower on station - they can shoot the rats while the miners mine. *Don't* panic and loose your head - it's just one bloody ship for crying out loud. *Don't* pause (cloak) the game and go AFK in hostile territory so you can hinder your enemy while you arnt even home. Cute, now lets see you prove they are afk, because I've used the old 'feign afk' trick myself to plick targets in Curse - wasn't in a cloaked ship, rather docked at an station, but the principle is the same and requires the virtue - patience And before you try to infer anything about my 0.0 experiance - I was in IAC dealing with the very same 'problem'. The only people who die are the stupid/stubborn ones who insist on not listening then 5 seconds before their pod burns yelling "ZOMG!!11 HELP MEH!!111" ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:49:00 - [106] ok the only way not to nerf perfectly balanced cloakers while simultaneously getting rid of afk people is a logout timer anything shorter than 60 minutes imho is too short to counter the macros some people will and do run all we need is eve to run with a counterpart that scans your system for 3rd party programs and you get investigated if a macro is found nerf my cloak and i will nerf your game i got enough real life cash to make the farmers multiply like bunny rabbits so dont tempt me ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Gabriel Karade Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 19:58:00 - [107] In my experiance, any prolonged period of inactivity results in the client sitting there dumb and happy showing you a nice vista of space, when in reality the server has said 'on your bike son' and kicked you. It will continue to sit there dumb and happy until you try to move/scan/click a module/type something, at which point it 'disconnects' - though in reality you'd been long gone. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.11 20:26:00 - [108] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Felysta Sandorn AFK cloaking in a system is an amazing tactic employed by many to tie up enemy resources... One way to counter such a ploy is to have a friendly Arazu pilot in system or nearby that can come to your aid at a moments notice, damp the hostile, and get you both to safety. Recons as a general rule don't have the DPS to kill someone before help can arrive. Alternatively, have some protection sat next to you if you're that worried! This is 0.0, not Hello Kitty World... There are risks, get over it! If you don't want the risk of being attacked in your system, either go and macro-mine in empire, or find a new game. Besides, you're in IAC, isn't one of your mottos 'Strength In Numbers'? It was when I used to fight you guys... Not as bad as some, but 3:2 ratios weren't uncommon. Surely you have members in the same system that can hop in combat ships and help you out? Name for me another way to negativly effect an enemies income, while AFK other than cloaking? you asked for it training skills, building/researching, setting long qeues in an outpost before abandoning it, by NOT being a target. heck most of those we can do while logged off even! AFK has no effect on anyones profit, their fear does Real men fly Pink. I've been living in your cassette, It's the modern equivalent, singing up to a Capulet, on a balcony in
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.08.11 20:32:00 - [109] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Gabriel Karade *Don't* be the only NPC'er in system - gang up, chain a belt each, and warp to each other when someone yells for help. *Don't* NPC in a crappy setup - use a PVP one if you can *Don't* leave your mining barges alone, fat and vulnerable in a belt - form up into big mining ops with some firepower on station - they can shoot the rats while the miners mine. *Don't* panic and loose your head - it's just one bloody ship for crying out loud. *Don't* pause (cloak) the game and go AFK in hostile territory so you can hinder your enemy while you arnt even home. What gives you the right to dictate to anyone here how to play their game. I pay my money per month like you, if i want to AFK cloak in your system well thats just too ******* bad for you. Deal with it. Its my money and my play time.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:29:00 - [110] Originally by: Tortun Nahme AFK has no effect on anyones profit, their fear does t3 quote right there! ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Tao Han Synthetic Frontiers	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:03:00 - [111] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Quote: Seriously, fly with friends. You are in 0.0, UNSECURED SPACE. You aren't supposed to fly blissfully afk knowing you are perfectly safe. Hell, us Empire Carebears get told to fly with friends all the time, why shouldn't you? Whining about feeling unsafe and having to worry because someone might attack you when you live in 0.0 makes us Empire Carebears seem like almighty PvPers. Heh, and they call US carebears. Deal with it. Fly with friends. Watch who you smack talk and who you turn into an enemy. Now apply every argument you just made, and apply it to cloakers.... They arnt just flying blissfully in UNSECURED space. They are flying blissfully through ENEMY unsecured space AFK, knowing they are perfectly safe. I meen hell, you Empire carebears get told to fly with friends all the time... why should afk cloakers in harsh 0.0 be any different? And to the person that said use probes, and smartbombs. 2 problems.... 1) cloakers cant be probed....duh. 2) Smartbombs DONT REMOVE CLOAK...try it with a friend befor you post, it makes you look less foolish if you know of what you speak. Wait, is he AFK or is he flying around? Make up your mind please. ------
Skelator Stronghold corp Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:12:00 - [112] Edited by: Skelator on 11/08/2007 22:13:51 Edited by: Skelator on 11/08/2007 22:13:21 Look up the term "Heavy Escort"! Just using this tactic will answer your complaints about the above subject. If you are ratting then rat in a Gang so your M8's can warp to you in under 30 seconds in a emergency. Phasmatis Velox Equitatus
Bluebeard LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:22:00 - [113] We've been through this many times before and nothing has changed. People who are not docked or inside a POS shield and go AFK for an extended period, should have a chance that they'll be in their cloning station when they return. For this to remain true, then either a cloaked ship must be probeable, or the cloak has to fail in some way. An active Covert Ops pilot should be untouchable and even one that is semi-afk and justs moves safespot every 10 or 20 minutes should be safe. Somebody that leaves a ship cloaked instead of logging out, goes out to work and comes back 8 hours later shouldn't be surprised that people spend an hour or two tracking down his ship and killing him.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:30:00 - [114] the problem with that tracking stuff is that if it becomes bugged it might be months before it is changed and sometimes bugged stuff remains as a feature so a simple logout timer if you are away for 75 minutes should do the trick - i bet it would solve a lot of lag and help give accurate numbers of how many active people are online ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:35:00 - [115] Originally by: SiJira ok the only way not to nerf perfectly balanced cloakers while simultaneously getting rid of afk people is a logout timer anything shorter than 60 minutes imho is too short to counter the macros some people will and do run all we need is eve to run with a counterpart that scans your system for 3rd party programs and you get investigated if a macro is found nerf my cloak and i will nerf your game i got enough real life cash to make the farmers multiply like bunny rabbits so dont tempt me I agree with you right there.. Cloaks arnt broken at all. And I have never said they were. In fact in most of the threads this is debated in I always say a logoff timer would be the most simple fix. Personally I think an hour is too long, but thats for the devs to decide if its ever implimented. But even an hour would be way better than things are now.
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:44:00 - [116] Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston Originally by: Steel Tigeress *Don't* pause (cloak) the game and go AFK in hostile territory so you can hinder your enemy while you arnt even home. What gives you the right to dictate to anyone here how to PLAY their game. I pay my money per month like you, if i want to AFK cloak in your system well thats just too ******* bad for you. Deal with it. Its my money and my play time. Bolded the important part of your poor excuse. If you are PLAYING the game, then there is no issue. If you arnt, then you are no better than a macro miner. Both accomplish things in game while not playing.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:14:00 - [117] IMO anything not using a T2 (read: anything but Cov Ops, Recons or SBs) cloak should be probable. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Eternus8lux8lucis Minmatar FW Inc	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:00:00 - [118] Want to stop the macro ratter? Want to make the game fun and hunting a challenge? Want to make unsecure space unsecure? Easy. Change local. The way local works atm is simply to show anyone that jumps in, its updated instantly, often before the person is actually in the system based on their screen. Why? Space is huge!! Should the guy 200aus away from the gate know that there is someone within 200aus of him? Not a chance. Blues, friendlies or those who you have standing with show up instantly. An "IFF" style beacon displays that goes out to all friendly ships in the area. Hi! Im here...ID code 2nei394 sent. Anyone else doesnt show up. Until...one of two conditions occur. You bump within range of them and "see" them on your screen and within your instanced universe. Or someone else thats friendly with you "sees" them in the same way. The ship scanner or probing would report a ship in local but not the type. So within the local screen you could have two changable options. One for players in system and one for players and ships. Yet if you warp off and you no longer are in contact with them they stay in local, but again only for a set amount of time. Same idea as the aggression timer, but could be varied by the ship type. Who reported it, distance, etc. Over a set amount of time youd still know there WAS someone there but are they STILL there? you dont know, now you gotta scout, hunt around, probe. So any AFK cloaked ship eventually wouldnt have a populated local at all. And even if they sat at a gate watching as people jumped in to get the intel it would go away over time and would be time sensitive. So youd never know if they had stayed, just run through or anything. MAcroers, ratters or miners...guess what. You either watch aroudn your ship liek a hawk, use scanner or probes to find out who or what COULD be around you. No more guy jumps in hunting a ratter and the guy instalogs, instaSS and cloaks. He wouldnt know you were there until it MIGHT be to late. No more macroing as itd mean instant death. No more afking as it wouldnt do any good. Wanna kill? Gotta hunt, gotta move, gotta leg it around. Are you alone? Youd never know. Its not space, you can now hide in space for years on end if you did it right. Or you could warp in on someone and have a very surprising encounter. Also when you see a ship, have a delay for ID. Like if youd jump into a belt youd see a ship pop up on your local, but itd take a few seconds, again based on your ship type to ID the ship. Same as locking it up takes varying times. So locking up and shooting might earn you a little blue on blue action. But would give the other party a chance based on the ship theyr flying and your flying. So the price for "catching the fly" might be blue on blue. ;) You wouldnt know. Now cloaks have a purpose. And you just fixed low sec and 0.0. And made the HUNT the main ingrediant in PvP. And made stealthy hiding a valuable asset. *********************************************** Where do we go from here? When theres no up and no down anymore...onward....ever onward into the vastnes of chaos till you find the light within.
Steel Tigeress Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:13:00 - [119] Originally by: Eternus8lux8lucis Your Idea you know I actually really like that idea, as it would cause the AFK cloakers to cease being a problem. But the other issue it doesnt help with, and thats that cloaks would still act as a pause button for anyone that can fit it, and they'ld face no risk AFK in 0.0 The one thing I would add to your idea though is: In space you have SOV in, if somone jumps into the system, they still show in local like they had been spotted. But would then fade from local after whatever time it takes. This way residents that own a system are still warned that a hostile entered, but after 5 mins or whatever they wouldnt know if the person left, logged or is prowling around.
RtoZ	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:25:00 - [120] Haven't read the thread so my apologies if I repeat anything. Anyways, imo the problem with this is not the cov ops but the mechanics of local itself. So the answer to this problem is not counter cloakers, I mean, hes sitting there cloaked, pffft big deal, it's the very mechanics of local which make this possible. There should be no obligatory player id in local in 0.0 for this and many other reasons. Make local a broadcast like thing, where you show up if you type and only for a few mins and the mechanics of afk cloaking would be irrelevant. I don't like the idea of 0.0 being the most dangerous place in EVE yet you're forced to go there with a huge bloody "I AM HERE, COME SHOOT ME" sign on you're ships bow. Dosen't make any sense to me. The same applies for map stats. There should be corp and/or alliance stats in the map, and local chat between alliance members, but the game would be more fun imo if alliances didn't have such tight control of who is in there systems and where forced to do some real recon, instead of having alts and trial accounts sitting in every important system. All of the above could be justified within the eve storyline pretty easily, and after the initial shell shock would actually make eve pretty fun in lowsec, as cat and mouse is allways fun. As it is now its not cat and mouse, its a pigeon shoot. With 20 shotguns for each pigeon.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:20:00 - [121] remove local ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:31:00 - [122] Removing local would exacerbate the problem. It'd cause 0.0 to collapse overnight.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:17:00 - [123] Originally by: Elmicker Removing local would exacerbate the problem. It'd cause 0.0 to collapse overnight.
Cleric JohnPreston	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:26:00 - [124] Originally by: Steel Tigeress Originally by: Cleric JohnPreston Originally by: Steel Tigeress *Don't* pause (cloak) the game and go AFK in hostile territory so you can hinder your enemy while you arnt even home. What gives you the right to dictate to anyone here how to PLAY their game. I pay my money per month like you, if i want to AFK cloak in your system well thats just too ***** bad for you. Deal with it. Its my money and my play time. Bolded the important part of your poor excuse. If you are PLAYING the game, then there is no issue. If you arnt, then you are no better than a macro miner. Both accomplish things in game while not playing. Dont bother trying to correct me. If someone decides to cloak in your space to disrupt your income then it is a valid PLAY** tatic, and unless you can show me proof that it isnt why dont you FAOD?
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:51:00 - [125] Damn you guys really are out to ruin the game, aren't you?! STOP WHINING ABOUT INANE THINGS LIKE LOCAL! They're not broken, so why are you trying to fix them! Oh noes! Someone's afk in my system, I can't mine precious veld with a macro! WHAT WILL I DO!? There's a reason I just subscribed a third account to this game, and that reason is that it's the best game I've ever played (except for Transport Tycoon), but people like you guys wanting to remove local are just trying to make it a **** poor excuse for a game! If you don't like the risks that come with EVE, I suggest you go and play Hello Kitty World Online! Removing local would kill this game... I'm guessing close to 60% of recruitments have spawned from chatting to someone in local... Think of the Goons! Someone started talking to them in Cistuvaert and Kisogo a year ago, and now they're part of one of the largest alliances in EVE. All removing local will do is give carebears a false sense of security. PvPers will, after a short amount of time, adapt, as we always do... Then it'll be 'OMG NERF T3H SCANNR' or whatever tool we use to kill the miners and ratter that are whining so damn much! Here's an idea, instead of me warping in and scrambling you, instead you get a message box that says 'Felysta Sandorn wishes to engage in PvP with you...' with the choices 'Consent' or 'Do Not Consent'. Clicking the latter will close EVE and take you to the WoW or Hello Kitty Online websites. GET OVER IT! /rant Latest Video, Click Here!
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:14:00 - [126] Edited by: Pilok **fly on 12/08/2007 14:14:24 Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Damn you guys really are out to ruin the game, aren't you?! STOP WHINING ABOUT INANE THINGS LIKE LOCAL! They're not broken, so why are you trying to fix them! Oh noes! Someone's afk in my system, I can't mine precious veld with a macro! WHAT WILL I DO!? There's a reason I just subscribed a third account to this game, and that reason is that it's the best game I've ever played (except for Transport Tycoon), but people like you guys wanting to remove local are just trying to make it a **** poor excuse for a game! If you don't like the risks that come with EVE, I suggest you go and play Hello Kitty World Online! Removing local would kill this game... I'm guessing close to 60% of recruitments have spawned from chatting to someone in local... Think of the Goons! Someone started talking to them in Cistuvaert and Kisogo a year ago, and now they're part of one of the largest alliances in EVE. All removing local will do is give carebears a false sense of security. PvPers will, after a short amount of time, adapt, as we always do... Then it'll be 'OMG NERF T3H SCANNR' or whatever tool we use to kill the miners and ratter that are whining so damn much! Here's an idea, instead of me warping in and scrambling you, instead you get a message box that says 'Felysta Sandorn wishes to engage in PvP with you...' with the choices 'Consent' or 'Do Not Consent'. Clicking the latter will close EVE and take you to the WoW or Hello Kitty Online websites. GET OVER IT! /rant This is about cloaking in 0.0 and removing local in 0.0 If you dont understand that after 5 pages then you'll never will. And dont tell people to stop whining when all that you do is whining. And third removing local in 0.0 doesnt make it.... Ah why bother, i doubt you'll understand it
Shurikane	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:15:00 - [127] Not only that, removing local would remove the ability of allies to talk to each other when in the same system, or people in Empire who want to exchange tips - I often see people in Empire Local make a call out to other pilots about recommended ship fittings, or if this or that mission is doable, or even just to say hello. The other major problem is that, with no local at all, someone can very easily bluff his presence to other people. All I have to do if I wanna annoy an enemy corp is send one of their guys a PM, say "I'm in your system, watching your d00ds!" and let them start looking around for a person who doesn't exist. I do like Eternus' idea of turning Local into a "radar contact" sort of thing. Corp and alliance mates are always visible to each other. Blues are always visible to each other too (this goes one way: i.e.: If you set a corp to blue, you make yourself always visible to them, but they are not obliged to return the favor) If anything not corp-alliance-blue is encountered, his name pops into local with a timer next to him, or something, say, an eye icon to show someone has visual on him right now. I'd put a pretty long timer too - something from 30 minutes to an hour. If you get into system and the guy hasn't been seen for 45 minutes, then you get a quick assessment of the situation. There would also be a five-minute timer on the last chat line spoken by any non-allied pilot. It doesn't completely solve the AFK cloaker problem, but it would help out somewhat. I'd also add to Steel Tigeress' idea by suggesting a sort of "permanent tracker" for systems that have capital sovereignty. In those systems, absolutely all pilots always show on Local. That would give further weight to the advantages of having a stronghold in the alliance, and since there can be only one in each constellation, it shouldn't be too bad for the one who wants to remain hidden. Perhaps even lead to some logistical decisions on the defending side: "Do we place the outpost and capitalize the chokepoint system so we can know of hostiles, or do we place the outpost in the system that's rich in ore and where we can facilitate production? Originally by: Felysta Sandorn They're not broken, so why are you trying to fix them! There are people who think otherwise! Doesn't mean they are necessarily right, but your less than civil outburst isn't making the discussion any easier on anyone.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:31:00 - [128] Originally by: Shurikane Originally by: Felysta Sandorn They're not broken, so why are you trying to fix them! There are people who think otherwise! Doesn't mean they are necessarily right, but your less than civil outburst isn't making the discussion any easier on anyone. Sorry, I just find the mentality of the kind of person that wants to nerf something in the game because he can't counter it hard to converse with. These forums are full of people who want to change something to make the game easier for them... Not a lot of people visit the forums that have nothing wrong with the game, that's why things get nerfed! About 80% of subscribers are happy with local as it is, but those guys don't visit these forums often enough, so it just looks as though there's a massive issue with it when there really isn't... If you can't effectively counter something, don't cry out for a nerf... Just figure out a way to counter it... After figuring out that Amarr were rubbish for example, I adapted and made a Gallente character... I didn't sit on the forums for hours whining about the same thing over and over like some of these drones do. Just adapt. Latest Video, Click Here!
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:36:00 - [129] Originally by: Pilok **fly And third removing local in 0.0 doesnt make it.... Ah why bother, i doubt you'll understand it Aw, someone that snuck in a swearword to their name to make themselves look cool it trying to be condescending to me... How cute... The argument as is so far: Argument: AFK cloakers ruin lives Counter: They're AFK, just ignore them Argument: But they can come back at any second and kill you Counter: Okay, have a PvPer standing by in a jamming ship and fit your ship to tank for 2 minutes Argument: Why should I? Counter: Because you're complaining! Argument: No, they just shouldn't be allowed there, nerf cloaks! Counter: Cloaks are not getting nerfed, they are not broken, so get over it. Argument: Okay, nerf local! Local is overpowered Counter: Why? Argument: Because you can see your targets and we want to mine in peace Counter: So you want a game with no risk? Argument: Yes Counter: Join Hello Kitty World Argument: Nerf counter-arguments! Latest Video, Click Here!
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:38:00 - [130] Sigh, here we go again. Just do something like this and then nobody would need a cloak or local nerf. Ship lovers click here
Shurikane	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:48:00 - [131] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn If you can't effectively counter something, don't cry out for a nerf... Just figure out a way to counter it... After figuring out that Amarr were rubbish for example, I adapted and made a Gallente character... I didn't sit on the forums for hours whining about the same thing over and over like some of these drones do. Just adapt. Still, it doesn't all work out that way all the time. I don't care about someone changing to a race that better suits 'em, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it adapting. There's a fundamental difference between tactics and counter-tactics, and something that is perhaps not coded or balanced properly. I've played countless MMORPGs where one class in particular was nothing but cannon fodder while another class was a virtual god on two legs, and there was nothing you could do about it except pure dumb luck. Someone had chosen a class that sucked overall, tough ***, delete all your progress, start over and pick another. It just doesn't work out in my book. And now back to the topic at hand: even if someone says a thing needs fixing, it doesn't make it true instantaneously. Topic will end in either of those two conclusions: A) "Yes, there's a problem and something must be done to fix it." or B) "We decided this was not a problem after all, or we found a valid and balanced way of countering it." There can and there will be cryouts for nerfs, and in a way, that is good*. After all, the game needs feedback on what people think works and doesn't work.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:43:00 - [132] Originally by: Pilok **fly Originally by: Elmicker Removing local would exacerbate the problem. It'd cause 0.0 to collapse overnight. AFK cloakers are a no-risk method of removing the security of a blue/empty local. Removing local removes that security from everywhere. Same effect as an AFK cloaker, just in every system. no mining in 0.0 = no refine tax for 0.0 alliances = 0.0 collapse. It's honestly not that difficult.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:43:00 - [133] Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Aw, someone that snuck in a swearword to their name to make themselves look cool it trying to be condescending to me... How cute... This is just pathetic, but if this is the best you can come up with then i guess i have to do with it. And btw, local is the easy mode and thats why you are against removing local
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:49:00 - [134] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Pilok **fly Originally by: Elmicker Removing local would exacerbate the problem. It'd cause 0.0 to collapse overnight. AFK cloakers are a no-risk method of removing the security of a blue/empty local. Removing local removes that security from everywhere. Same effect as an AFK cloaker, just in every system. no mining in 0.0 = no refine tax for 0.0 alliances = 0.0 collapse. It's honestly not that difficult. When thats all you think about, then yes its not so difficult. But without local, those attacking a mining op can be ganked more easy. Cloaked guards wont show on scanner. There are so many threads with removal of local in 0.0 (and low sec)with many good reasons why it should be removed. But i know it wont happen because Eve is going easy mode
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:18:00 - [135] Originally by: Pilok **fly Originally by: Felysta Sandorn Aw, someone that snuck in a swearword to their name to make themselves look cool it trying to be condescending to me... How cute... This is just pathetic, but if this is the best you can come up with then i guess i have to do with it. And btw, local is the easy mode and thats why you are against removing local You just pointed out what this topic was about, you idiot... How else am I meant to reply? You don't even have a valid argument other than 'omg local shud b nerfd'... And local isn't 'easy mode', that's like saying 'market is easy mode'... It's just a game mechanic that doesn't need changing in any way, shape or form! Oh noes, someone can undercut my price on the market, market is easy mode, nerf market! What are you smoking? Because I want some... Look at it from the other angle. You're mining in your velator and see someone enter local, you info him, he's a pirate, you dock. Simple. If he stays there and you know he's in an arazu after 10 minutes, get your mate who flies an Arazu to come sit with you. Everyone knows someone with more than 1 account anyway, so one of those accounts won't be put-out much leaving their PvP ship in a system while they wait on comms for a 'Help! Im under attack!'. Oh, and I fly Amarr... Definately easy mode there... Latest Video, Click Here!
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:49:00 - [136] Edited by: Elmicker on 12/08/2007 19:48:56 Originally by: Pilok **fly But without local, those attacking a mining op can be ganked more easy. sigh 1st, how will you find the mining op? Check every belt of every system? 2nd, what happens when all the 0.0 mining has stopped and the high-end supply dries up? How will you replace ships? Quote: Cloaked guards wont show on scanner. This is a good thing? You could have 50 cloaked recons sitting 10km off your station and not know about it. All anyone would fly would be recons. No one would find anyone else. Quote: There are so many threads with removal of local in 0.0 (and low sec)with many good reasons why it should be removed. I've yet to see any reasons beyond "Local wasn't intended as an intelligence tool" and "It'll make killing things easier". Both of which are reasons which haven't been thought about for more than 30 seconds.
Pilok Shitfly Minmatar Soliders Of Eve The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:17:00 - [137] Originally by: Elmicker 1st, how will you find the mining op? Check every belt of every system? This is a joke, right? Originally by: Elmicker 2nd, what happens when all the 0.0 mining has stopped and the high-end supply dries up? How will you replace ships? It will make 0.0 mining ops safer,scouts on the gates and you know about hostiles before the hostiles know about you. It's good to disagree about local and get a (or more) discussion going as long as its not going to be namecalling when you're (and i dont mean you) out of arguments And i'm staying of of it now, its kinda pointless, it will be removed or not, we'll see what happens.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:19:00 - [138] Originally by: Pilok **fly This is a joke, right? no? How will you find the mining op. I'm honestly interested, as you will have to check every belt of every system - especially now as mining ops can take place anywhere with the Rorqual. Quote: It will make 0.0 mining ops safer,scouts on the gates and you know about hostiles before the hostiles know about you. Unless, of course, they're already in system.
Evil Bill Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:27:00 - [139] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Whining about feeling unsafe and having to worry because someone might attack you when you live in 0.0 makes us Empire Carebears seem like almighty PvPers. Don't make assumptions - The damage AFK cloakers cause is the fact that people have to respond. This means putting away their ratting ravens or mining barges, and as you put it "fly with their friends". However, when you get to this point. What happens? Nothing. You have no way of finding the cloaker, and the cloaker is achieving his objectives just by being there, so he's not going to decloak and try and attack someone. You can't simply move on and carry on elsewhere - 0.0 activity is restricted entirely by fixed infrastructure. Make cloakers probable (not scannable), but with a hefty added amount of difficulty and innaccuracy. This only damages the AFK cloakers and cloaked ratting BSs. Cloaked ships that are supposed to cloak are already very difficult to probe down, so they're almost untouched by this change. However, with a bit of persistence and "flying with friends" decloaking these annoyances could be possible, if difficult. So your beef is that cloakers force you to play as a team, to take precautions that others have to take even in secure space and you can't solo mine totally unsecured space without danger? Yeah, we need a nerf for that. Geesh.
JeanPierre Gallente Gun Metal Priests The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:31:00 - [140] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Pilok **fly Originally by: Elmicker Removing local would exacerbate the problem. It'd cause 0.0 to collapse overnight. AFK cloakers are a no-risk method of removing the security of a blue/empty local. Removing local removes that security from everywhere. Same effect as an AFK cloaker, just in every system. no mining in 0.0 = no refine tax for 0.0 alliances = 0.0 collapse. It's honestly not that difficult. 0.0 was there before corps and later empires moved in. It will survive if you can't figure out how to play as a team. It's not 0.0 collapse at all. ------------------------------ Ever notice that people who spend money on beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets are always complaining about being broke and not feeling well?
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:45:00 - [141] Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 10/08/2007 22:24:55 Why is there no counter to cloakers who sit in your key 0.0 systems 24/7 so that noone can rat or mine? Why is there no sort of compromise to putting yourself on the front line right amongst the enemy forces? They nerf the NOS because they think it is overpowered, but as it stands, there is NOTHING you can do to get rid of these people. The ability to cloak and never be caught means that tactics that some corps use can never be defeated without some sheer luck. Tactics such as sitting a few snipers 239km off a gate cloaked and putting a cloaking dictor on the gate so that when anybody jumps in, the dictor drops a bubble, the person can't escape and thus the snipers have all the time in the world to uncloak and lock them and pop them. The snipers either then recloak or warp off to a safespot and cloak so that no gang, no matter how big it is, has a chance of catching them. There NEEDS to be some sort of way to get around this, maybe by using specialised probes to find them. Discuss. Why can no one rat or mine if theyre afk?
Trent NowImNothing	Posted - 2007.08.13 05:33:00 - [142] Local shouldn't be removed ...... what should be is the fact you can see anyone that's in or enters a system .... local can still exist but just without a list of names. again I say .. LOCAL WASN'T MEANT TO BE USED AS A MAKE-SHIFT SCANNING DEVICE TO SEE WHO'S IN THE SYSTEM. your whole argument is based on the fact you can use an exploit to see that someone is cloaked somewhere in the system and you can't find them. what a stupid thing to complain about. It's no wonder CCP hasn't commented about this thread.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.13 05:33:00 - [143] Originally by: Elmicker no? How will you find the mining op. I'm honestly interested, as you will have to check every belt of every system - especially now as mining ops can take place anywhere with the Rorqual. lol How about how everyone else finds them, like LowSec pirates? Macro hunters? HighSec wardeccers? Scan probes, directional scanner. They are faster than just randomly jumping belt to belt anyways. I would have thought as a big 0.0 person you would have known that by now... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:07:00 - [144] no need for the rolly eyes he isnt a 0.0 player ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried!
Yellow Pixie	Posted - 2007.08.13 14:54:00 - [145] Originally by: Trent NowImNothing Local shouldn't be removed ...... what should be is the fact you can see anyone that's in or enters a system .... local can still exist but just without a list of names. When people say "remove local" what you said is exactly what they are talking about. Making it so no one appears in local unless they type.

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