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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Snowden Vel
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:25:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Keldjos Falzir
I think CCP needs to ask itself what they are trying to accomplish with the mineral importation nerf. The effects I see are:
1) Making it even more painful and expensive to build large things in 0.0 systems by making it much harder to get low end minerals
2) Making 0.0 logistics even more of a pain in the ass
3) No visible or noticble effect to empire dwellers, except that their passive targeters and other high-compression moduals won't sell as well
4) An indirect nerf to NPC ratting income, because in 0.0 space close to 20-25% of the value of various NPCs is in their high mineral content loot like battleship guns and armor plates.
So, where are the up sides? What great and valuable thing does this change bring to the game, because I'm not seeing it. If CCP's goal is to actually get people out of Empire space, then why make it even more difficult to establish and maintain a market in 0.0?
Mining low end ores in 0.0 is a gross waste of time, and still will be even after this change, so all this does is make living in 0.0 space more difficult.
This sums it up nicely.
Killing mineral importation is a terrible idea and I hope the devs come to their senses before this hits TQ.
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Mika Zimmer
Gallente
Renyn Supply Company
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:28:00 -
[32]
I'm trying to see the logic behind this stunt. Can you help me out CCP? It is like this person has no idea of how to play the game.
That or he gets a cut from Macro miners.
Which is it?
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Japan Man
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:29:00 -
[33]
I'm fine with certain modules having their compression potential nerfed ... it seems kind of arbitrary that in order to do 0.0 production you need passive targeters and jump portal generators.
However, if another equally viable method of compressing minerals isn't immediately introduced to fill that vacuum afterwards, this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Even stupider than the hamhanded nos nerf, which I wasn't sure was possible until now.
What problem does nerfing mineral compression entirely solve? Why is it a good idea? Is anyone going to have more fun becasue of it? Were these questions even considered?
What a dumb idea.
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Delvainar
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:37:00 -
[34]
It's already too difficult to get low end minerals in 0.0 markets, and this mineral compression nerf makes it even more difficult.
The compression of the ORE capital only makes it easier to get minerals from 0.0 to empire, where's the love in the other direction?
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Valandril
Caldari
Resurrection
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:40:00 -
[35]
First bulkheads
then nos
now minerals compression ?
What next ?
And do ccp choose nerfs by lotto machine ?
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Not replying to alts, post with ur main or STFU |
Fun Bunny
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:40:00 -
[36]
I just have to make a post on how completely idiotic this nerf is since the fact that you are saying it like you have already implemented it makes me pretty worried:
Yes, certain modules allow a large amount of minerals to be moved large distances with quite a bit of effort in compression and freightering(much like your stupid ore ship that no one will use since sieging a lone defenseless capital ship in a belt belt is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, do you actually expect people to use this? Like even once? ).
However, it's the ONLY way to get a reasonable amount of minerals into 0.0 at a reasonable price that makes it worth producing. Freightering down is not a realistic option, certainly not for the smaller alliances and corps trying to establish themselves in 0.0. You have the data, you KNOW 90% of the markets in 0.0 are COMPLETELY barren already, so why would you even think of doing this? It just blows my mind.
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Shoukei
Boobs Ahoy
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:43:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sammiel
Its balancing in the most ham handed and terrible way possible. Instead of fixing the cause (mining low ends in 0.0 is a total waste of time), they tried to balance an effect (people importing low end laden modules to 0.0).
there is no "cause" to the problem. its more economically viable to mine high ends than low ends and thats simply a fact that will never change.
because you choose not to mine low ends where you live, now you will have to "waste" 20% of the ore you try to import. unless you use specialized ship, you will pay a small "tax".
here be signatures! |
Trezic
Trailerpark Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:49:00 -
[38]
I'm sure someone has pointed it out already, but this change will not only affect 0.0. It's going to affect empire, also. While it's only 170 items out of the database getting nerfed, I'm willing to bet that those 170 items drop fairly often from mission rats. Thus, we're going to see a broader impact than I suspect was intended with this change.
With less minerals available, we're going to see a general rise of prices in all regions, not just 0.0. If you guys really claim to hate inflation, I fail to see how you missed this. Money will end up chasing fewer and more expensive goods...sounds like an inflationary cycle to me.
I know this is a job for CCP and I know a lot of addicts treat it like one, but, hey guys, it's a freaking game. Making it more tedious for the vast majority of us is a slap in the face to your customer base.
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Fun Bunny
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:54:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Trezic
I know this is a job for CCP and I know a lot of addicts treat it like one, but, hey guys, it's a freaking game. Making it more tedious for the vast majority of us is a slap in the face to your customer base.
This is the most important part here, it's really, really not going to add anything to the game.
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Cringeley
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:55:00 -
[40]
Is this part of a grand scheme to raise public approval for the idea of devs playing in player alliances? Because this is insane.
It's been said repeatedly and I'm going to say it again - economically there is no sense in switching from mining high ends to mining low ends just to deal with this nerf. It will still be more efficient to package the minerals and take the 20% reprocessing hit. All this is doing is imposing a drag on 0.0 economies while effecting little or no change in play style, except perhaps that alliances with large titan fleets, like BoB, may gain a 20% advantage over everyone else by jump bridging freighters full of minerals from empire to their homes. But I would be very surprised if that was the intent of the "nerf".
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Khan Dhu
Khan Dhu Research and Cloning
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:57:00 -
[41]
A change such as the mineral importation change should have a run-up in terms of MONTHS, not a "hey, let's change this at the same time" deal.
Reasons:
1. No Rorquals will be available in quantity for at least a month while corporations research the BPOs.
2. It's going to take time to train up the Ore Compression skills.
3. Quite literally the entire 0.0 world is at war. BAD time to shake up production logistics.
If you've decided to do this, do it - just delay it a couple of months first so people can prepare for it.
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Balcura
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:00:00 -
[42]
reported by CCP Chronotis | 2007.08.11 17:42:41 | NEW | Comments
New Features For Old Issues
Currently, there are a number of items whose total volume of required ingredients are many times that of the resulting product. This leads to imbalanced compression rates as high as 430:1, such as the 1,000m3 Jump Portal Generator, a module requiring 430,000m3 of minerals to make. Upon completion, these modules would be transported to a new location and reprocessed with nearly zero waste, thus allowing the transport of a Freighter load of minerals with an Industrial.
While this imbalance has been around for a long time, it wasn't until the introduction of high resource capital modules that we began to see its use increase. With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs.
There are approximately 170 items currently on Tranquility with compression ratios over 5:1. When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required. Material transport will still be possible after Revelations 2.2, but it will no longer be profitable to do so.
Would be nice to know which items they are going to be nerfing in this manner or is it going to be all items?
This will also have an adverse effect on the mineral market while pumping up the Ore market as you can compress ores and not minerals.
WHY is it every time they introduce something that would be a great addition to the current system, they turn right around a nerf something else that didn't need to be nerfed (cans inside industrial ships docked in a carrier comes to mind, as does the tech 2 cargo expander becomming like the local hull instead of being better and the BPO's being given to the guys that held the tech 1 BPO's forever and a day... it stinks).
Unlike industrials and using modules to move minerals around the new ship now requires a crap ton more skills to do less... makes no sense to me
What is so limiating or game imbalancing about being able to make items that can then be refined to move large quantites of "pre-refined" minerals to a given destination? You have also made it impossable to actually haul any "large" quantities of material without running a 1 bil isk freighter. There has got to be a company out there that sees the problem with having Industrial ships and then.... a freighter there needs to be something in the middle (hell might even be able to compress minerals in empire belts) that dosn't cost an arm and a leg to own/run/use.
I would be completly ok if there were a "compressed Tritanium BPO" that takes 1000 trit (10 m3) and turns it into 1 unit compressed tritanium (.01 m3). Why not just make it a factor of a BPO that is designed to do the job and not just say... well we'll get rid of everyones way of moving large quantities of minerals in a confined cargo hold.
Like one of the posters stated before "did the guy who came up with this ever play eve?"
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Cringeley
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:05:00 -
[43]
The other thing I really hate about this idea is that the mechanic you're using to implement is ridiculously arbitrary. Mineral compression is a factor of two things:
1) The mineral value that CCP considers items to be worth, based on their stats and abilities
2) The volume that CCP considers certain items should take up in cargo holds, based again on the item's value, function and back story
Players did their calculations on these factors and worked out that they could move minerals more efficiently by putting them into objects first. That took intelligence, and the ongoing process takes lots of time, effort, additional characters, etc.
Now you come along and say "oh we don't like what you're doing, so...hmmm...certain items can only be refined at 80% efficiency now". Why exactly? Is every refinery in the galaxy going to suffer a mysterious plant explosion and get repaired with inferior equipment that can't reprocess a jump portal generator properly? It's ridiculous, inorganic and hamfisted.
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Itzena
Amarr
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:06:00 -
[44]
Originally by: G Dabak
Can you clarify this?
Quote:
The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner.
...
With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs.
Does this mean the Rorqual itself or something separate that's coming later? I ask because having to freighter dozens of loads of ore into lowsec for compression does not address the "deep space need" of being able to build battleships in 0.0 without burning out on eve.
I think CCP thinks people mine veld in 0.0, or something. I mean, that's the only logical explanation to this whole debacle.
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Nothing will improve the way things currently are. |
Seramyr l'Ethia
Fallen Angels Inc
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:18:00 -
[45]
Now that encryption skillbooks are being seeded, will there be an alternate source of income added to magnetometric exploration sites?
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Tar Ecthelion
Kryomek Industries
The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Itzena
Originally by: G Dabak
Can you clarify this?
Quote:
The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner.
...
With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs.
Does this mean the Rorqual itself or something separate that's coming later? I ask because having to freighter dozens of loads of ore into lowsec for compression does not address the "deep space need" of being able to build battleships in 0.0 without burning out on eve.
I think CCP thinks people mine veld in 0.0, or something. I mean, that's the only logical explanation to this whole debacle.
I've mined Veld in 0.0 .... but was only to make the rats spawn when they screwed them up in the drone regions 
.....
"When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite"
Winston Churchill
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Yuki Nagato
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:22:00 -
[47]
CCP needs to realize something. People do not mine Veldspar in 0.0. There are so many different ores that are more economically feasible to mine than Veldspar. If CCP is going to nerf logistics like this in the middle of a war, they need to introduce a ship or something that can mine Veldspar or other tritanium-heavy ores in massive quantities. You cannot simply take a sledgehammer to 0.0 markets without compensating for it.
Do you want people to move into 0.0 and have self-sustaining economies? Don't go through with this patch. If you must go through with it, delay it till 2.3 so people can train up for the ORE capital and give it some way of compressing Trianium. Changing something like this, that affects EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of 0.0 logistics without giving time for producers to compensate for it is an extremely poor choice, and I hope you reconsider.
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Ryouko Asakura
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:23:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Yuki Nagato
People do not mine Veldspar in 0.0.
Quoting for emphasis and animu reference.
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Luaren Avidius
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:52:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Luaren Avidius on 12/08/2007 01:52:56
I cannot be silent on this incoming nerf.
I operate a reprocessing business based in empire space. I buy modules from mission runners and then move them back to jita, where I do various things with them, more than often reprocessing a great lot of them. I'm not the only one that does this. Anyone ever wonder where Jita gets most of its minerals? A very large chunk of these minerals comes from people who operate simlar to me, by buying loot from empire mission runners and reprocessing it, and then doing various things with the resulting minerals.
This nerf basically ruins a great deal of our business, because many, MANY of the modules that we buy have compression ratios higher than 5 to 1. Now those modules will be built and sold at full mineral price, but a character like myself, who has 100% refine on scrapmetal btw, will be unable to reclaim more than 80% of the minerals in these modules. This will lead to as much as a 20% falloff in mineral supply, which will lead to drastically inflated prices, which will also force me to cut my offers 20% on virtually everything I buy because of the decreased yeild, which takes income away from the people who sell to me, and forces people who buy minerals to waste even more when compressiong for shipment to 0.0.
Basically, everybody in this rediculous, ill-concieved nerf loses, from the missioner who takes the time to loot that 425mm railgun he got, to the person who eventually refines it, to the person who ultimately buys those minerals for whatever purpose he has.
CCP, you must seriously rethink your position on this nerf. Never before have I seen such an un-needed, warrantless nerf. If you want to get people to do mineral compression the way YOU want them to do it, there are a lot better ways to do it. Increasing the volume on the offending modules would be one way. Adding blueprints that allow people to compress at an actual 5:1 or higher ratio at a very rapid rate would be even better.
This nerf has a LOT of collateral damage. Ratters, Missioners, Recyclers, Mineral Compression Specialists, 0.0 Mineral Markets, virtually anyone who loathes doing freighter runs because their mini empire needs trit.
Please reconsider this nerf, CCP.
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SajuurCor
Free Collective
The OSS
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Posted - 2007.08.12 01:59:00 -
[50]
This honestly has to be one of the least thought out, unneeded changes I've ever seen out of CCP. Completely uncalled for, trying to justify the stats on a ship which is not all that useful.
Instead of a simple: buy mins > build tractors > jump > refine tractors, you now have: mine veldspar > freighter to low sec > siege mode outside a station (no tank bonus) > jump > refine ... all for a LOT less minerals and likely 50 times the time and effort.
You want people in 0.0, yet here you are forcing them to:
a. mine in empire (not living in 0.0)
b. mine veldspar in 0.0 (oooh thats profitable, guess ill move back to empire!)
c. not have a solid market in 0.0 (who wants to live there?)
I've got to wonder how things like this are even considered remotely by CCP, do you play this game, or just like trying to make new content that hurts it?
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Chief Wigwam
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:08:00 -
[51]
This is the most cretinous nerf I've ever seen. 
You're just trying to make it harder for people to get ships out in 0.0 to fight with? Why? Are you trying to get people to focus on logistics rather than fights? Or perhaps spend more time looking at the pretty backgrounds?
The DDD compression ratios were a bit crazy but why are you going the extra mile to ensure you cripple all of 0.0 logistics? Incidentally, these are frankly are not in the finest of states throughout most of 0.0 space. Explain to me exactly who's gameplay will be improved by the change to mineral compression?
Please CCP, try and remember people play this game for fun and to pointlessly reduce the ratio of fun time to grinding is really shooting yourself in the foot and stabbing your player base in the back. Stop this madness now. 
I'm deeply disappointed in you CCP. 
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HatfulOfHollow
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:27:00 -
[52]
Edited by: HatfulOfHollow on 12/08/2007 02:31:22
Jesus Christ, from the way you inter-nerds are crying over this thread you'd think it was about a 20% reduction to the size of hot pockets.
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:34:00 -
[53]
You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it.
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Cillin
MacroGenesis Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:39:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cillin on 12/08/2007 02:43:03
The Rorqual's ****ty ore compression is no substitute for mineral compression as it exists now. Nor does this change make sense from the perspectives of:
-Having fun playing the game
-Populating 0.0
-Allowing smaller groups to participate in 0.0
-Minimizing the "grinds" in the game
Does this make the game more fun? Does it make me want to log in and play? Or just throw in the towel out of boredom and frustration? This is akin to CCP denying us a skill queue... why? Because you like to grief us? That is the job of pirates, not devs.
How about you aim to make the game more user friendly and enjoyable. The simple ability to transport building materials en masse, while powerful, does not itself break the game nearly as much as other "features" you choose to ignore.
Put simply, **** this change.
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Shoukei
Boobs Ahoy
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:43:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Big Al
You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it.
this one wins the thread. threatening to quit over "hey, you cant get all the minerals back after you reprocess the modules!".
btw, can i get your stuff?
here be signatures! |
murder one
Gallente
Death of Virtue
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:50:00 -
[56]
As someone who doesn't mine *at all*, all I can say is LOL. CCP kicks a game mechanic exploit right in the nuts, and now you guys don't like it.
From a pirates perspective, everything about the change is good. Sure, prices of T1 and ship stuff will go up a bit, but that just means that the average cost of a fitted ship goes up, which means I can ask for a higher bounty every time I catch a target.
The drop in T2 prices actually hurt pirating a lot. As did the drop in implant prices. Now when I threaten to pod someone or destroy their ship they just tell me to take a hike. "I have three more already built."
Rigged ships get me a little more on the ransom side, but expensive rigs on a ship are more rare than you'd think.
Anyway. Tons of *my* stuff have been getting nerfed for months. Now I see why people were laughing at my pain. Because it's fun when it's happening to someone else. 
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now?
[07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
Fleet Combat Ships |
Darpz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.12 02:51:00 -
[57]
another Nerf for the small guys. so the only way to get logistics done in 0.0 of any type of scale is if you have a titan or like goons develop a highway? what about the little guys the rely on mineral compression imports to get any type of real logistics done on a economical basis?
also since most items in rating do have a fairly nice compression ratio your killing the value of the loot by 20% aswell. I'm sick and tired of you guys making "easy" fixes to things instesd of really getting creative and trying to fix a problem by addressing the source of the problem and not just do a cheap workaround.
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Mestoth
Minmatar
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 03:09:00 -
[58]
Kieron + Chronotis
I actually (GOD FORBID) support the logic behind the stopping of mineral compression. It has, and would have always been an exploit.
However, you have essentially fixed the exploit without looking at why that exploit needed to exist. Trit mineral density is pathetic. yeah sure, there is trit up the wazzoo in the Veld asteroids; but the density of the trit is rediculously low. you get MORE trit per hour by looting and refining Rat loot than you do by actually mining veld in a Hulk with t2 Crystals! *at least down here in 0,0*.
Bringing in the ORE Capital ship is nearly irrelivent in this sense. yes, its a fantastic way to move raw ore about. However a CARRIER load of Veldospar is nothing!
for Figures:
Utilising DENSE VELDOSPAR as a base mineral (ie the +10%)
- My corp mates Carrier (Chimera) appropriatly fitted and loaded can haul 45Km3.
That gives you a grand wopping total of 450,000 Veldospar that you can fit....which refines down to just over 1.475M trit. (or raw Trit 4,500,000)
- a Hulk with Exhumers V and Mining Upgrades V with Veld Processing V + 50% Station refine + station standing of 10, Refinary Effeciancy 5 (ie EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY COULD HAVE AT LEVEL V)...PER HOUR gets... 1.19million trit.
- If you rat for one hour you will end up with between 2-4million trit in refinables depending on the rats and your luck.
Now we know that these new carriers can only hold ORE. Not minerals. so large volume mineral compression is out. So now i must speculate.
My Obolisk freighter with Galente freighter IV lets me haul 900,000 m3 of stuffs (900KM3): If packed with Veldospar i get a Wopping 31.26m Trit at the end....after travelling 35+ jumps from the closest empire station.
Or I load it with trit: 90 M Trit. Oooh WoW..you can get nearly 100 M trit..
Now lets break that down into actual Figures that we need. Assuming you have the OTHER minerals (lets not forget Pyerite is just as much a pain to haul as trit, just you need about half as much) you can build:
From a: (based on a Raven requiring approx 7.2m trit per build)
Freighter Load of Trit: 12.5 Ravens
From a Freighter load of Veld: 4.34 Ravens
From a Carrier Load of Veld: About 1/3 a raven. or 40,000 Bane Torpedos
From a Carrier Load of Trit: About Half a raven or 100K bane Torpedos.
Number of Hulk Hours to get a single Raven: 6 and a bit HOURS of Mining with no stops.
from those figures you can CLEARLY see something is wrong. I mean, who is SERIOUSLY going to mine nearly 7 Hours of veld to get the TRIT alone.
If you could make 4-5 million trit per hour of Veld, I would quietly STFU, but you cant. You can barely make 1 mil trit an hour!
Or to simplify it to those who havent gotten it. Ratting you can make 20M an hour. Mining Ark or Bisot you can make 30-50m (gang bonuses etc) an hour. Mining Veld you can make 2m an hour....now as a builder i need to make somewhere, so dont be supried when my BS costs 400m
Or: A raven needs 7.2ish million trit per Raven. At current price (high side of it), 3.3 per unit gives you 23millionish for trit (of a raven). If the price goes back up to 8...or more likely with this change, 12 per unit, well 7.2 X 12 gives you 86.4 MILLION isk JUST in trit....what..the other minerals come free as a set of steak knifes?!....add in the other 80m (assuming prices stay fixed) and your up to 160M+ for a raven. Add in profit, its 200M for a raven.....
so in summary:
- CCP Fix the exploiting.
- FIX Veldospar. its pathetic in its current form
- Look at what your doing in terms of production; not in terms of pretty multipliers and Excell spread sheets
- 200M + Ravens and 40M cruisers here we come! Frigates going Hot fro 15M a pop
- either Drop the requirments of Trit per production item, or increase the ABILITY to aquire said trit. Mineral imporation was the ONLY way to get enough for ANY ship production.
-Mestoth
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2007.08.12 03:10:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Big Al on 12/08/2007 03:12:00
Originally by: Shoukei
Originally by: Big Al
You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it.
this one wins the thread. threatening to quit over "hey, you cant get all the minerals back after you reprocess the modules!".
btw, can i get your stuff?
This reply actually wins for being the most worthless, where did I threaten to quit genius?
I merely said CCP doesn't care about people cancelling their accounts with the ample number of farmers ready and willing to take their place.
You can have my soon-to-be worthless jump portal generator bpos though if you wish, I know they will increase your net worth by at least 100 times.
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Darpz
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.12 03:15:00 -
[60]
and to add to this, I could see implenting this nerf if the ore ship acutaly helped with the procurement of lowends in 0.0, since that was prolly the best idea I saw for a 0.0 ore ship is a capital lowend miner that was innefective on highends.
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