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Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:36:00 - [91] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Zenst Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt. Enlighten us. How exactly are we meant to move freighterloads of minerals without 50-man 8-hour escort ops without mineral compression? Short of using a titan, that is. By living in a region with NPC stations right next door, silly!
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:37:00 - [92] I expect that people will quite happily pay 25% more for tritanium (aka passive targetters) if it's really so much work to move it around by any other means. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:39:00 - [93] Originally by: Fun Bunny Originally by: murder one If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. Exactly, if CCP doesn't do anything with belts as well then they'll have dozens of hulk macros in every belt within the month. It's like they haven't thought it through at all. Can I say that this argument is very funny? You all are arguing that moving minerals from the empires will be more difficult, but that you will increase the quantity of minerals imported? Notice a little contraddiction? I seem more probable that the middle range minerals in low sec will become a little more interesting, or tha tht tons of ratters that till yesterday where saying "I will not bother to look the rat lot unless it is from a faction ship" will start recovering it (or some in the same corp/alliance will gang up and recover it).
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:55:00 - [94] If you're going to do this, and I know you will (despite what's being said in this thread), PLEASE delay the change to 2.3 so people have time to train for the Rorqual and actually acquire one of them. This will have a massive impact on 0.0 ship prices and more likely than not grind 0.0 production to a halt for at least two months, and then people finally get into the ore compression business. You can't nerf 0.0 logistics like this right in the middle of a massive war without giving ample time to react and for the market to adjust.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:59:00 - [95] Originally by: Apocalytica Insomnia Now assuming my guesses on the intention for this fix are really to make it a bit harder to get your super capital the i make following solutions avaible for review that will not hurt the 0.0 markets, while not inflating empire prices on low grade ore. Those solutions might not work if you take all of em, but they might be an idea to think about with the right amount of balancing. Solutions: A.1) do not fix items like for example passive targeters, but fix high compression ratios >40:1 by either increasing the volume of the build item to bring them inline and make em useless for mineral Compression. A.2) Include a System that will make the waste on the item dependant on the compression ratio, where for exampe a compresssion ratio of 430:1 gives you 25% waste a compression ratio of 40:1 will give you 10% of waste, while 20:1 goes for 5% waste. B.1) Seed a new type Low grade roids into systems below -0.0001 that yield like 20% more then their empire equivalent. Example: mysterious Veldspar , where 333 Units will yield you 1400 Tritanium, or where you only need 250 units to get 1100 units trit. B.2) Seed a new type of strip miner, that can only be activated below a specific security-status (like below -0.0001) and grants you like 20% more yield for low grade ores like trit/pyerite then normal strip miners do. A T2 version could work like normal strip miners allowing teh use of crystals. [/quote A.2) good (I would like to see it for all the modues, even those with very low compression). Getting back 100% of the mineral used while recycling is simply absurd B.1) Ok, acceptable. B.2) Absolutely no. A little added info: as soon as the named mining upgrade start to work, mining will get almost a 10% increase, going over 15% if you use the best mining hardwiring.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Jadal McPieksu Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No) My educated guess: yes, and he approved it.
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:02:00 - [97] Originally by: Keldjos Falzir I think CCP needs to ask itself what they are trying to accomplish with the mineral importation nerf. The effects I see are: 1) Making it even more painful and expensive to build large things in 0.0 systems by making it much harder to get low end minerals 2) Making 0.0 logistics even more of a pain in the ass 3) No visible or noticble effect to empire dwellers, except that their passive targeters and other high-compression moduals won't sell as well 4) An indirect nerf to NPC ratting income, because in 0.0 space close to 20-25% of the value of various NPCs is in their high mineral content loot like battleship guns and armor plates. So, where are the up sides? What great and valuable thing does this change bring to the game, because I'm not seeing it. If CCP's goal is to actually get people out of Empire space, then why make it even more difficult to establish and maintain a market in 0.0? Mining low end ores in 0.0 is a gross waste of time, and still will be even after this change, so all this does is make living in 0.0 space more difficult. /signed We need to be able to show huge benefits of mining ore in 0.0 space, specialy the "low" end. Rather than the few % "special" veldspar etc. it should be 200-300% and the further lightyears you are from empire the more it gives. This should be all about making empire space useless so there actualy is a need to come to 0.0 So you want to join us?
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:05:00 - [98] Well, have to chime in to this one..... I know we have to roll with the changes - Passive Targetter ME833 - Small Hull Repairer ME409.... ..and Small Tractor Beam at ME900 and still counting. And so, yes, I do question this change, although I did always find this Mineral Compression system very odd. However, if we're to have logic, then Reprocessing should be 80% across the board with no exceptions. Secondly - Mobile Labs going from 1 x Copy to Advanced Labs with 6 x Copy..... That's insane - and just makes the old Labs useless. Do yourself a favour - just make the old ones have 2, or possibly 3 x Copy slots - and 3 x Invention - make them the same. But 6 - that's just silly!
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:45:00 - [99] CCP, please think once again about this nerf for mineral compression and at least delay it a bit. Where do you want us to get all the trit which we need in 0.0? a) Do you want us mine it in 0.0? Won¦t happen as miners normally mine the ore, which brings the most profit. Mining veld (or similar) brings about 1/5 of mining high end ore. Sure, it¦s possible to do alliance-mining ops just to mine low-ends, but your members won¦t like it. So if you want us to mine low-ends in 0.0 (or low-sec) you need to improve the roids. b) You want us to buy the trit (veld) in empire? Make it possible to compress veld in empire or make it even possible to compress trit. Another option would be to give us a better option to pass the high-sec - low-sec "barrier" with loads of ore. In low sec we could use a rorqual at a POS for ORE-compression. But it¦s too risky (or too much effort) to fly x-times with a freighter into low-sec with all the uncompressed ore. I could see a T2 freighter (but should not cost too much) with increased defense-ablities so that can survive much longer. Another point which comes to my mind are NPC-hauler spawns in 0.0: At the moment they are dropping refined minerals, specially loads of tritanium. But very often the trit is left in the belt, because it would take too much effort, to move it to the next station (or production POS). I think it would be an improvement, if these haulers drop compressed ore instead. It would be easier to fetch and it would even fit better within RP. [Why should NPC-miner be able to refine ore within the belt, but players aren¦t able to]
Arrs Grazznic FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:49:00 - [100] Originally by: Hamalicious Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic. /signed ***** around with something like this just end up penalising too many people and **ing off many more. Fix lag and desync issues before making these unnessacerry changes. Cheers, Arrs

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:05:00 - [101] The compression nerf is stupid and only hurts the small people. Bah. The large alliances are rich enough, they don't care about 20% loss they will just continue to use the modules to compress ore. But the small alliances and corps, they struggle already and this nerf is another burden on them. Why? I cannot see any use! Also the large alliances use their titans to jump around freighters, so no biggies for them. And the small people? Again they are messed up. CCP, do you really want that sort of game? I thought you want to populate 0.0 and make it more attractive. You just do the contrary. But maybe this is another 'need for speed' ... What was wrong with mineral compression anway? Ohhh, you don't use freighters for moving minerals...bad bad baaad people. Here comes the nerf bat! Ohhh, you don't play the game as CCP intended it? Baaaad, baad, now hush up and use freighters and no more mineral compression! This nerf won't change anything except that people will get upset and unhappy. You (thoughtless) destroy the gameplay for many people, especially small corps, and what do you introduce instead? Nothing!! Don't come with the new ORE ship, that is not nearly a substitute, how many people can and want to fly that, not many? But there are many people who are working in the supply business, making blueprint copies of compression modules, selling packages of compressed minerals and so forth. Why destroying all that???
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:08:00 - [102] Edited by: Inspiration on 12/08/2007 11:09:25 "When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required." I feel kicked in the balls for aparently no good reason by this change. You are deliberatly making perfect refine go broke, aka introduce a BUG! I am one of the people that bought and improved BPO for the T1 modules that have useful compression factors. These BPO are pretty useless for manifacturing T1 gear as hardly anyone uses those modules, and we aren't all up in T2 production. So their only other purpose beside T2 BPC production is mineral compression. And now CCP is gona tell me that because they introduce a new low sec only ship, the compression of certain minerals by T1 modules is gona get nerfed by making perfect refine not work on them properly? What on earth is the change useful for? Do you realy recon the new capital ship is useless without this change being made? THINK! And why is mineral compression using some T1 modules, so evil that it has to be removed? THINK Or why 100% efficient refining for that matter, people trained heavy skills to be able to do this! THINK! On top of this, low end minerals are in short supply, this change will also affect mission loot refining and thus the profit of mission running. THINK! I ain't running missions anymore, but I just like to indicate that change affects all! I just see this particular change (making perfect refine go broke on certain modules) as griefing, even tho I personaly won't be financialy affected by it. Why do you guys always manage to screw cool idea up at the last possible moment? THINK!
Cail Fortestan M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:12:00 - [103] Quote: The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. There is a HUGE non-sequitur right there in the original blog. How exactly does the Rorqual help me get the 1.5 Bill minerals needed for a Mothership out to 0.0 ? Mining would take approx 550 hours just to get the Trit. This will add a straight 20% inflation to the cost of building in 0.0 Unless there are some other major changes at the same time, this is just a plain Nerf. Why not admit that, rather than dress it up as a balance change ? And does "officially supported manner mean" ? Does it mean that mineral compression is officially supported but with a 20% penalty, or that the Rorqual is the only officially supported way for compressing anything ? CCP must have the figures for number of JPGs build and refined, so they know exactly how much effect this change will have. -- M. Corp.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:21:00 - [104] Edited by: Inspiration on 12/08/2007 11:22:07 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Jadal McPieksu Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No) My educated guess: yes, and he approved it. Well, from my common man perspective, the profession is highly overrated. It's scientificaly proven that you can't proove everything, and also that models aren't perfect. On top of that they are phrone to idiology. How often are market watchers and say stock-market advisers right.....answer....less then random chance! Might as well hire a bunch of monkeys to press buttons in anticipation of bananas!
Claudia Grant Gallente Quantum Synergies YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:23:00 - [105] I am litterally at a loss for words. First you nerf mineral compression. But doing so late after super capitals has entered the game it creates a massive disparity between newcomers and the big blocks in eve. As usual. Now were litterally in deep ***. The warning is so short that we cant recuperate losses neither. Spending massive amounts of ISK on the Jump Portal Generator Bpo¦s for the "right" to compress minerals are also just a "too bad" situation. So albeit compression ratio is indeed phenomenal it is also extremely time consuming and expensive. Jump portal generators costing almost half a billion isk pr bpo, research taking several weeks pr run and not to mention the build time which is staggering high. All that account for nothing. nerf nerf nerf Which leaves small and mid-sized corporations in economic ruin. One thing is changing something because it has an adverse effect but make sure you give investors an oppertunity to recouperate instead of just sinking their efforts. Its not like it falls under "you should know better" enither. Eve-search will reveal massed posts where this compression ratio is talked about in the open from long time ago. No snip* or warning posted. In fact it just looked like mineral compression as usual with the addendum that if you wanted excellent mineral compression you pay the isk. Massively disspointed.
Schneiderr Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:28:00 - [106] not that i think those changes are needed regarding the mineral compression, but what i want you to do is... FIX THE DAMN DESYNC AND CONNECTION ISSUES, they still exist. btw. with all those new copy slots that will be introduced with the new labs, do you plan to actually buy an own database cluster just for all those BPCs coming or will they temporarily fill the cache of the existing one reduce the players lag free gaming experience even more?
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:30:00 - [107] Originally by: Mestoth Or: A raven needs 7.2ish million trit per Raven. At current price (high side of it), 3.3 per unit gives you 23millionish for trit (of a raven). If the price goes back up to 8...or more likely with this change, 12 per unit, well 7.2 X 12 gives you 86.4 MILLION isk JUST in trit....what..the other minerals come free as a set of steak knifes?!....add in the other 80m (assuming prices stay fixed) and your up to 160M+ for a raven. Add in profit, its 200M for a raven..... Or you can just start to refine some common NPC goods for 3.01 isk per trit (3.71 isk per trit if it get nerfed). We're sorry, something happened.
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:33:00 - [108] I'm involved in building motherships and the only impact this change will have for me is that from now on all ships I sell will cost 20% more than they did before. I don't know if that is CCP's objective, but that's the only effect it will have for a lot of the supercap builders. We'll just continue to use compression and pass the costs on. Mine low ends in 0.0? No. Ship trit from empire in freighters? No. Just 20% extra cost. There is enough work involved in supercap building and logistics, none of us are looking for any extra. Largo
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:00:00 - [109] This is madness. I'm starting to get the idea CCP really just doesn't get it. All work and no play makes capsuleers dull people. The new ORE compression concept is for the 0.0 TO EMPIRE focus. The current mineral compression is for EMPIRE TO 0.0 So, on the one hand you've had folks build refineries, upgrade stations, and then you make it simple and effective to just give the finger to stations and go to empire, again. At the same time, you are giving the concept of mineral compression such an imbalanced slap in the face that it almost makes me laugh. Mineral compression is a lifeline for most of 0.0. We're not talking about supercapitals here. We're talking about keeping the warmachines going, and at the pace of warfare in 0.0 you rely on mineral compression, unless ofcourse you base from empire space. Come on. This devblog focus has managed to tie together a number of conceptual issues addressing them as one while each is an individual concept issue. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:06:00 - [110] Originally by: Gnulpie The large alliances are rich enough, they don't care about 20% loss they will just continue to use the modules to compress ore. But the small alliances and corps, they struggle already and this nerf is another burden on them. Ever thought of how stupid refining outposts and the recently introduced upgrades are now that there's ore compression? Consider the mechanisms of taxation and resident programs. This is more then a slap in the face of small alliances and new comers, it's a slap in the face of anyone. It shows a structural lack of understanding of the differences between theory and practicality of concept implementation. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug

Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:13:00 - [111] Wait, does any of this have to do with the fact that Dr.Eyj=G's background is in "experimental economics"? Are we being used as research subjects?
Francesca Dell'Agio	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:22:00 - [112] Originally by: Cringeley Wait, does any of this have to do with the fact that Dr.Eyj=G's background is in "experimental economics"? Are we being used as research subjects? Always. But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense.
Sha Kharn Minmatar STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:25:00 - [113] just put 36 jump portal gens in the oven and found this the next day bloody great. I stand to loose billions thanks for the warning CCP.
Altaree Red Frog Investments	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:33:00 - [114] Chronotis, No fair kicking over this anthill and then going away for the weekend.
Twarda Sztuka	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:33:00 - [115] My 0.02 ISK: Let's start with the logic behind it. When you read stuff on Orange Juice boxes, see how many is made from concentrate. Players also create their version of concentrate. Please remember that players didn't actually think "Let's find exploit". No they have found a way to get something done. There should be a method of compressing minerals anyway. CCP didn't care about it for a long time. So what's changed? They want to introduce a new ship that can compres stuff. But will players actually use it? Hell no! Compression will work only in one direction - From 0.0 to empire. Bulk of the minerals that is transported in compressed version is the low-grade minerals for transport to 0.0 (mostly for production of Capital Ships). The new ship won't help. Even if it could compress in Empire for transportng to 0.0, still compression ratio will be lower than compressing by making modules. What have CCP done. They decided that it is the time to block this "Exploit" (!). So please, please, please don give us BS (and I don't mean Battleship) about "balanced manner". Please try to explain why transpoting minerals this way is a bad thing. It doesn't change current game balance. Hauling is tedious job anyway. Changing it will increase inflation way more than band of macro farmers and people who sell ISK for money. Additionally it will **** off everyone who is using rat loot for reprocessing (as most Production Corps do in 0.0). They will have to spend more time ratting and less producing. Please check how many people complained aboyt things like drone interface or adding timer to modules display. Then compare with how many said "There is huge problem... people are compressing minerals and it makes game unbearable". You are trying to fix a delicate ballance by throwing grenade in and hoping that it will improve things. Well it bloody won't! I can see possible solutions to this: A) Create a module "Mineral Transport System". Create new skill "Mineral Transport". New module would have insane CPU and/or Powergrid requirements, but it would be cut by 99.9 used on Freighters (They would need actually slot for it) and Capital Ships. Module would allow transporting Minerals and unprocessed ore compressed in ratio 75:1 for each level of Mineral Transport skill. So with skill at level 5 it would compress minerals by 375:1. Then see how much people would actually use the "Exploit". B) Create option that will allow similiar compresion (both direction). It should be done anyway. Allow it to be used in high-sec. Also make it competetive to 430:1 compresion currently used. C) Leave it as it is. I still think your new ship will be useful for mining operations, but its compression wont be used for hauling to Empire. It would be mostly used for short range hauling mined ore to nearest station. But there is a bright side. This idea just become number 1 on the list of 10 worst ideas proposed by CCP. (It is the 7th on the list of worst ideas ever and climbing up).
Jifai	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:34:00 - [116] So all mission module loot will be nerfed by 20%?
Okotomi Anki	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:40:00 - [117] Originally by: Francesca Dell'Agio But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense. Very interesting. Thank you for the info. Can you provide any proof? Not in this thread, of course.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:46:00 - [118] 80% minerals instead of 100% like before : my ratting loot = 0.8 what was my ratting loot in rev 2.1. -> -=-=-
Sigmorhair Gallente Eisenmetal	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:59:00 - [119] So who does this benefit most? Alliances with lots of titans. Oh look it just happens to be Band of Developers. WHAT A SHOCK!
Metaller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:00:00 - [120] Originally by: There are approximately 170 items currently on Tranquility with compression ratios over 5:1. When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required. Material transport will still be possible after Revelations 2.2, but it will no longer be profitable to do so. Are you serious about that??? How are we in the drone regions supposed to make isk now??? We rely on compressing minerals to transporst them to empire to sell them for isk??? That will not be possible now. You are screwing our whole income. And the new indy cap ship doesnt help with that since you cant compress the minerals you get from alloys as far as i understood it! This fixed needs to be changed!!



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