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CCP kieron	Posted - 2007.08.11 20:55:00 - [1] Give the guy a chance to blog and he runs with it! Chronotis has a new blog with more insight into the introduction of the Rorqual ORE Capital Ship, some balance fixes, more skills on the market and info on a new player-deployable structure. Curious? Of course you are! Check out More Stuff Happening in Revelations 2.2. kieron Director of Community Relations, EVE Online EVE Online, CCP Games Email/Netfang Look Ma, I'm in a Dev thread! Oh wait...

Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:00:00 - [2] Any eta on a fix for alliance copying now that we have 5 times as many slots to play with? My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Jongo Fett Caldari An Eye For An Eye Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:11:00 - [3] mmm very intresting
chrisreeves Gallente Asgard Protectorate Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:15:00 - [4] Edited by: chrisreeves on 11/08/2007 21:15:42 Wow, looks like some pretty devastating blows to isk making in several sectors from what I see. Any word on making it easier on capital pilots, specifically carrier pilots, to organize items in their ship that they may be moving for others? According to this very long thread (GSC Thread) it appears that CCP has made it overburdeningly difficult on carrier pilots to organize their items in a corp hanger or cargo hold by removing GSC's ability to be carried in an industrial in the ship array. Imo, you have made the game more of a drag with some of the recent changes to Eve as pointed out in several threads across the boards including the GSC. I hope that these changes aren't going to continue to go in the direction of a "Need for LESS Speed" rather than what you may have intended. ----------------- Originally by: kieron The Ibis was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:24:00 - [5] this is going to upset allot of 0.0 logistics people... mineral compression was one of the ways that they could move minerals easy... which became more important after the GSC in carrier nerf. Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Charles Schwab The Charles Schwab Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:27:00 - [6] I can't see that there would be any reason to run a regular Mobile Laboratory after this patch hits. Will the Advanced Mobile Laboratory offer less time bonus (say, 0.85 rather than 0.75) to balance it against the regular Mobile Laboratory? ___
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:35:00 - [7] Thanks so much for seeding Graviton Physics. All in all, more dictor bubbles are probably a bad thing for my Eve existence, and the other stuff is probably far more important in the big scheme of things, but it makes me happy nonetheless. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:38:00 - [8] Well, to be fair, it's getting easier to move freighters long distances now that jump bridges are becoming available to more people (not to mention titans). On the other hand, I am a bit worried that with these new labs around, there'll be almost no use for the old ones. The drawbacks of the new labs are insignificant when considering their much greater earnings potential; BPCs are fundamentally more profitable to sell than researched BPOs. There's a glut of invention slots; even just 2 per lab would be more than most people would need. (WTS 8+ old mobile labs ) My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:53:00 - [9] @ Advanced Mobile Labs! As stated, I can't see any downside to replace all my normal labs with a single advanced... Help me help you .


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.11 21:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Charles Schwab Will the Advanced Mobile Laboratory offer less time bonus (say, 0.85 rather than 0.75) to balance it against the regular Mobile Laboratory? I forgot to add that into the blog which I just updated, it is currently a -10% time bonus so 0.85 modifier on copy/PE/TP and 0.60 on invention jobs.


Arthur Pewty Task Force Zener Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:06:00 - [11] I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. Arthur Pewty
Trishar	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:18:00 - [12] So does this mean there will be an option to compress minerals with this ship too? All I've seen so far was ore, and thats not the usual stuff you buy in jita and transfer to 0.0 :P
Santa Bonita Coherence LLC	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:19:00 - [13] Originally by: Arthur Pewty I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. This is a good idea.
G Dabak Magellanic Itg GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:19:00 - [14] Can you clarify this? Quote: The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. ... With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs. Does this mean the Rorqual itself or something separate that's coming later? I ask because having to freighter dozens of loads of ore into lowsec for compression does not address the "deep space need" of being able to build battleships in 0.0 without burning out on eve.
1Of9 Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:23:00 - [15] Question: With the mineral nerf, will it be possible to compress the ore in a station? if not, then we need to a) move unrefined ore to low sec b) compress in a ore cap ship c) jump to 0.0
MrDetermination Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:23:00 - [16] So... you are going to take the strongest miners and put them in ships they can no longer actually mine in. Then you're going to make it even harder to reasonably get low end minerals in 0.0. Hey. I have an idea. Instead of screwing up new things why not make fixing the things that are already screwed up better!
Charles Schwab The Charles Schwab Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:27:00 - [17] Originally by: Arthur Pewty I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. Arthur Pewty This is a fantastic idea, and please give it a new model too! The original mobile lab has become boring-looking. :) ___
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:30:00 - [18] Edited by: Sammiel on 11/08/2007 22:33:08 What on Earth is the reasoning behind making it even harder to bring low ends into 0.0. As of now there is no reason whatsoever to mine asteroids containing low end minerals in 0.0 space. This nerf doesn't change that fact, since even taking an 80% refine hit doesn't change that fact. So the end effect of this is just to raise the price of T1 items in 0.0 as low end minerals will rise in price due to more lossy refining. It looks like it will also be a backhanded nerf to actually picking up your loot after ratting/missioning since a lot of the modules that were worth decent ISK (guns, plates, hardeners, etc) are now going to suffer a 20% reduction in worth since they will fall in excess of a 5:1 ratio. Why? Who actually wanted this change? Why didn't you add something to actually make it worth it to mine low end ores in 0.0 instead? Weakening 0.0 markets seems stupid as most of them are already crap and a lot of smaller alliances will be unable to make use of things like the jump bridges. Not to mention the fact that they cannot traverse NPC space. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Shoukei Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2007.08.11 22:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Sammiel Edited by: Sammiel on 11/08/2007 22:33:08 What on Earth is the reasoning behind making it even harder to bring low ends into 0.0. As of now there is no reason whatsoever to mine asteroids containing low end minerals in 0.0 space. This nerf doesn't change that fact, since even taking an 80% refine hit doesn't change that fact. So the end effect of this is just to raise the price of T1 items in 0.0 as low end minerals will rise in price due to more lossy refining. It looks like it will also be a backhanded nerf to actually picking up your loot after ratting/missioning since a lot of the modules that were worth decent ISK (guns, plates, hardeners, etc) are now going to suffer a 20% reduction in worth since they will fall in excess of a 5:1 ratio. Why? Who actually wanted this change? Why didn't you add something to actually make it worth it to mine low end ores in 0.0 instead? Weakening 0.0 markets seems stupid as most of them are already crap and a lot of smaller alliances will be unable to make use of things like the jump bridges. Not to mention the fact that they cannot traverse NPC space. its called balancing and removing what were basically exploits. here be signatures!
Spazzle GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:07:00 - [20] This mineral compression nerf is unwelcome and unwanted.

Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Shoukei Originally by: Sammiel Edited by: Sammiel on 11/08/2007 22:33:08 What on Earth is the reasoning behind making it even harder to bring low ends into 0.0. As of now there is no reason whatsoever to mine asteroids containing low end minerals in 0.0 space. This nerf doesn't change that fact, since even taking an 80% refine hit doesn't change that fact. So the end effect of this is just to raise the price of T1 items in 0.0 as low end minerals will rise in price due to more lossy refining. It looks like it will also be a backhanded nerf to actually picking up your loot after ratting/missioning since a lot of the modules that were worth decent ISK (guns, plates, hardeners, etc) are now going to suffer a 20% reduction in worth since they will fall in excess of a 5:1 ratio. Why? Who actually wanted this change? Why didn't you add something to actually make it worth it to mine low end ores in 0.0 instead? Weakening 0.0 markets seems stupid as most of them are already crap and a lot of smaller alliances will be unable to make use of things like the jump bridges. Not to mention the fact that they cannot traverse NPC space. its called balancing and removing what were basically exploits. Its balancing in the most ham handed and terrible way possible. Instead of fixing the cause (mining low ends in 0.0 is a total waste of time), they tried to balance an effect (people importing low end laden modules to 0.0). Its not going to stop importation. Its just going to make mineral prices rise in 0.0 space. Since their aim has been stated to populate low sec and 0.0 more, this seems like a ill thought out idea. And calling it basically an exploit is the height of stupidity. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Jas Dor Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:33:00 - [22] Edited by: Jas Dor on 11/08/2007 23:33:22 Originally by: Sammiel Edited by: Sammiel on 11/08/2007 22:33:08 What on Earth is the reasoning behind making it even harder to bring low ends into 0.0. As of now there is no reason whatsoever to mine asteroids containing low end minerals in 0.0 space. This nerf doesn't change that fact, since even taking an 80% refine hit doesn't change that fact. So the end effect of this is just to raise the price of T1 items in 0.0 as low end minerals will rise in price due to more lossy refining. It looks like it will also be a backhanded nerf to actually picking up your loot after ratting/missioning since a lot of the modules that were worth decent ISK (guns, plates, hardeners, etc) are now going to suffer a 20% reduction in worth since they will fall in excess of a 5:1 ratio. Why? Who actually wanted this change? Why didn't you add something to actually make it worth it to mine low end ores in 0.0 instead? Weakening 0.0 markets seems stupid as most of them are already crap and a lot of smaller alliances will be unable to make use of things like the jump bridges. Not to mention the fact that they cannot traverse NPC space. Chill. It may be a nerf to GF but it's going to hurt pet keeping alliances a whole hell of a lot more. Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU!
true enjoyment	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:39:00 - [23] Regarding the nerf to mineral packaging: If this is an attempt at improving players' experiences, it is extremely hamfisted. Indeed, it seems to be aimed at obstructing logistics, which is tedious enough.
Amior Amarr Pringles Inc. YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:43:00 - [24] Can you give us the possible requirements for flying the Ore Capital ship please and fits??.. Once you pop, you can't stop! - Pringles I R PIEWATE! Yarh haha! I eat noobs for breakfast
Sammiel Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:45:00 - [25] Originally by: Jas Dor Edited by: Jas Dor on 11/08/2007 23:33:22 Chill. It may be a nerf to GF but it's going to hurt pet keeping alliances a whole hell of a lot more. This really isn't about GF at all. It will harm GF less than it will harm a lot of other people. Its about CCP being unable to balance things properly. This nerf is just going to make T1 things in deep 0.0 more expensive. That's it. Which is hardly what I think CCP is aiming for. DEATHLEY > why dont u remain silent like prominent alliances like our band of brothers do
Gaius Gallius	Posted - 2007.08.11 23:47:00 - [26] This is going to make the drone regions an even more painful place to live.
Anahid Brutus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:00:00 - [27] This is just full on ****** by ccp. Are you trying to get everyone to just move back to empire? Seriously this is so ***** stupid it makes the nos nerf look like a masterstroke.
Altaree Red Frog Investments	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:08:00 - [28] Does this mean that I will be able to use the new ore compression BPO's outside of the new capship? If so, cool... If not, BOOOOOO!!!!!
Keldjos Falzir GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:12:00 - [29] I think CCP needs to ask itself what they are trying to accomplish with the mineral importation nerf. The effects I see are: 1) Making it even more painful and expensive to build large things in 0.0 systems by making it much harder to get low end minerals 2) Making 0.0 logistics even more of a pain in the ass 3) No visible or noticble effect to empire dwellers, except that their passive targeters and other high-compression moduals won't sell as well 4) An indirect nerf to NPC ratting income, because in 0.0 space close to 20-25% of the value of various NPCs is in their high mineral content loot like battleship guns and armor plates. So, where are the up sides? What great and valuable thing does this change bring to the game, because I'm not seeing it. If CCP's goal is to actually get people out of Empire space, then why make it even more difficult to establish and maintain a market in 0.0? Mining low end ores in 0.0 is a gross waste of time, and still will be even after this change, so all this does is make living in 0.0 space more difficult.
Macdeth Ephemeral Misgivings Babylon Project	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:17:00 - [30] I think you guys really do have meetings where you sit around and tell each other "Pointless logistical timesinks that encourage macro usage are what EVE needs more of!" Now: I can highly compress billions of isk in minerals and haul them from point A to point B in one freighter trip. After: I can't highly compress billions of isk in minerals, so now it'll take 20 back & forth freighter trips. Hell, I do this inside empire because no matter how hard I have repeatedly tried in various regions, I can't get the volume of minerals I utilize while operating at full capacity anywhere but Jita. My personal volume is greater than most regions', when I'm not being lazy due to the whole 'logistics of hauling' business. And nevermind the poor 0.0 people... This effectively will operate as an additional minor inflater in the eve universe as the 0.0 importers, who have no choice but to take the 20% loss to move the quantity of minerals they need, will reduce the number of hard assets (raw minerals, factory outputs) in the universe while having no effect on the quantity of isk. CCP, why do you hate your players?

Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Keldjos Falzir I think CCP needs to ask itself what they are trying to accomplish with the mineral importation nerf. The effects I see are: 1) Making it even more painful and expensive to build large things in 0.0 systems by making it much harder to get low end minerals 2) Making 0.0 logistics even more of a pain in the ass 3) No visible or noticble effect to empire dwellers, except that their passive targeters and other high-compression moduals won't sell as well 4) An indirect nerf to NPC ratting income, because in 0.0 space close to 20-25% of the value of various NPCs is in their high mineral content loot like battleship guns and armor plates. So, where are the up sides? What great and valuable thing does this change bring to the game, because I'm not seeing it. If CCP's goal is to actually get people out of Empire space, then why make it even more difficult to establish and maintain a market in 0.0? Mining low end ores in 0.0 is a gross waste of time, and still will be even after this change, so all this does is make living in 0.0 space more difficult. This sums it up nicely. Killing mineral importation is a terrible idea and I hope the devs come to their senses before this hits TQ.
Mika Zimmer Gallente Renyn Supply Company	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:28:00 - [32] I'm trying to see the logic behind this stunt. Can you help me out CCP? It is like this person has no idea of how to play the game. That or he gets a cut from Macro miners. Which is it?
Japan Man	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:29:00 - [33] I'm fine with certain modules having their compression potential nerfed ... it seems kind of arbitrary that in order to do 0.0 production you need passive targeters and jump portal generators. However, if another equally viable method of compressing minerals isn't immediately introduced to fill that vacuum afterwards, this is the stupidest idea I've ever heard. Even stupider than the hamhanded nos nerf, which I wasn't sure was possible until now. What problem does nerfing mineral compression entirely solve? Why is it a good idea? Is anyone going to have more fun becasue of it? Were these questions even considered? What a dumb idea.
Delvainar GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:37:00 - [34] It's already too difficult to get low end minerals in 0.0 markets, and this mineral compression nerf makes it even more difficult. The compression of the ORE capital only makes it easier to get minerals from 0.0 to empire, where's the love in the other direction?
Valandril Caldari Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:40:00 - [35] First bulkheads then nos now minerals compression ? What next ? And do ccp choose nerfs by lotto machine ? --- Not replying to alts, post with ur main or STFU
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:40:00 - [36] I just have to make a post on how completely idiotic this nerf is since the fact that you are saying it like you have already implemented it makes me pretty worried: Yes, certain modules allow a large amount of minerals to be moved large distances with quite a bit of effort in compression and freightering(much like your stupid ore ship that no one will use since sieging a lone defenseless capital ship in a belt belt is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, do you actually expect people to use this? Like even once? ). However, it's the ONLY way to get a reasonable amount of minerals into 0.0 at a reasonable price that makes it worth producing. Freightering down is not a realistic option, certainly not for the smaller alliances and corps trying to establish themselves in 0.0. You have the data, you KNOW 90% of the markets in 0.0 are COMPLETELY barren already, so why would you even think of doing this? It just blows my mind.
Shoukei Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:43:00 - [37] Originally by: Sammiel Its balancing in the most ham handed and terrible way possible. Instead of fixing the cause (mining low ends in 0.0 is a total waste of time), they tried to balance an effect (people importing low end laden modules to 0.0). there is no "cause" to the problem. its more economically viable to mine high ends than low ends and thats simply a fact that will never change. because you choose not to mine low ends where you live, now you will have to "waste" 20% of the ore you try to import. unless you use specialized ship, you will pay a small "tax". here be signatures!
Trezic Trailerpark Industries	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:49:00 - [38] I'm sure someone has pointed it out already, but this change will not only affect 0.0. It's going to affect empire, also. While it's only 170 items out of the database getting nerfed, I'm willing to bet that those 170 items drop fairly often from mission rats. Thus, we're going to see a broader impact than I suspect was intended with this change. With less minerals available, we're going to see a general rise of prices in all regions, not just 0.0. If you guys really claim to hate inflation, I fail to see how you missed this. Money will end up chasing fewer and more expensive goods...sounds like an inflationary cycle to me. I know this is a job for CCP and I know a lot of addicts treat it like one, but, hey guys, it's a freaking game. Making it more tedious for the vast majority of us is a slap in the face to your customer base.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:54:00 - [39] Originally by: Trezic I know this is a job for CCP and I know a lot of addicts treat it like one, but, hey guys, it's a freaking game. Making it more tedious for the vast majority of us is a slap in the face to your customer base. This is the most important part here, it's really, really not going to add anything to the game.
Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:55:00 - [40] Is this part of a grand scheme to raise public approval for the idea of devs playing in player alliances? Because this is insane. It's been said repeatedly and I'm going to say it again - economically there is no sense in switching from mining high ends to mining low ends just to deal with this nerf. It will still be more efficient to package the minerals and take the 20% reprocessing hit. All this is doing is imposing a drag on 0.0 economies while effecting little or no change in play style, except perhaps that alliances with large titan fleets, like BoB, may gain a 20% advantage over everyone else by jump bridging freighters full of minerals from empire to their homes. But I would be very surprised if that was the intent of the "nerf".

Khan Dhu Khan Dhu Research and Cloning	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:57:00 - [41] A change such as the mineral importation change should have a run-up in terms of MONTHS, not a "hey, let's change this at the same time" deal. Reasons: 1. No Rorquals will be available in quantity for at least a month while corporations research the BPOs. 2. It's going to take time to train up the Ore Compression skills. 3. Quite literally the entire 0.0 world is at war. BAD time to shake up production logistics. If you've decided to do this, do it - just delay it a couple of months first so people can prepare for it.
Balcura	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:00:00 - [42] reported by CCP Chronotis \| 2007.08.11 17:42:41 \| NEW \| Comments New Features For Old Issues Currently, there are a number of items whose total volume of required ingredients are many times that of the resulting product. This leads to imbalanced compression rates as high as 430:1, such as the 1,000m3 Jump Portal Generator, a module requiring 430,000m3 of minerals to make. Upon completion, these modules would be transported to a new location and reprocessed with nearly zero waste, thus allowing the transport of a Freighter load of minerals with an Industrial. While this imbalance has been around for a long time, it wasn't until the introduction of high resource capital modules that we began to see its use increase. With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs. There are approximately 170 items currently on Tranquility with compression ratios over 5:1. When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required. Material transport will still be possible after Revelations 2.2, but it will no longer be profitable to do so. Would be nice to know which items they are going to be nerfing in this manner or is it going to be all items? This will also have an adverse effect on the mineral market while pumping up the Ore market as you can compress ores and not minerals. WHY is it every time they introduce something that would be a great addition to the current system, they turn right around a nerf something else that didn't need to be nerfed (cans inside industrial ships docked in a carrier comes to mind, as does the tech 2 cargo expander becomming like the local hull instead of being better and the BPO's being given to the guys that held the tech 1 BPO's forever and a day... it stinks). Unlike industrials and using modules to move minerals around the new ship now requires a crap ton more skills to do less... makes no sense to me What is so limiating or game imbalancing about being able to make items that can then be refined to move large quantites of "pre-refined" minerals to a given destination? You have also made it impossable to actually haul any "large" quantities of material without running a 1 bil isk freighter. There has got to be a company out there that sees the problem with having Industrial ships and then.... a freighter there needs to be something in the middle (hell might even be able to compress minerals in empire belts) that dosn't cost an arm and a leg to own/run/use. I would be completly ok if there were a "compressed Tritanium BPO" that takes 1000 trit (10 m3) and turns it into 1 unit compressed tritanium (.01 m3). Why not just make it a factor of a BPO that is designed to do the job and not just say... well we'll get rid of everyones way of moving large quantities of minerals in a confined cargo hold. Like one of the posters stated before "did the guy who came up with this ever play eve?"
Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:05:00 - [43] The other thing I really hate about this idea is that the mechanic you're using to implement is ridiculously arbitrary. Mineral compression is a factor of two things: 1) The mineral value that CCP considers items to be worth, based on their stats and abilities 2) The volume that CCP considers certain items should take up in cargo holds, based again on the item's value, function and back story Players did their calculations on these factors and worked out that they could move minerals more efficiently by putting them into objects first. That took intelligence, and the ongoing process takes lots of time, effort, additional characters, etc. Now you come along and say "oh we don't like what you're doing, so...hmmm...certain items can only be refined at 80% efficiency now". Why exactly? Is every refinery in the galaxy going to suffer a mysterious plant explosion and get repaired with inferior equipment that can't reprocess a jump portal generator properly? It's ridiculous, inorganic and hamfisted.
Itzena Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:06:00 - [44] Originally by: G Dabak Can you clarify this? Quote: The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. ... With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs. Does this mean the Rorqual itself or something separate that's coming later? I ask because having to freighter dozens of loads of ore into lowsec for compression does not address the "deep space need" of being able to build battleships in 0.0 without burning out on eve. I think CCP thinks people mine veld in 0.0, or something. I mean, that's the only logical explanation to this whole debacle. -- Nothing will improve the way things currently are.
Seramyr l'Ethia Fallen Angels Inc INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:18:00 - [45] Now that encryption skillbooks are being seeded, will there be an alternate source of income added to magnetometric exploration sites?
Tar Ecthelion Kryomek Industries The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:20:00 - [46] Originally by: Itzena Originally by: G Dabak Can you clarify this? Quote: The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. ... With the introduction of a ship designed to facilitate and empower ease of logistics in low sec, we can now release a tool to address deep space needs. Does this mean the Rorqual itself or something separate that's coming later? I ask because having to freighter dozens of loads of ore into lowsec for compression does not address the "deep space need" of being able to build battleships in 0.0 without burning out on eve. I think CCP thinks people mine veld in 0.0, or something. I mean, that's the only logical explanation to this whole debacle. I've mined Veld in 0.0 .... but was only to make the rats spawn when they screwed them up in the drone regions ..... "When you kill a man it costs nothing to be polite" Winston Churchill
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:22:00 - [47] CCP needs to realize something. People do not mine Veldspar in 0.0. There are so many different ores that are more economically feasible to mine than Veldspar. If CCP is going to nerf logistics like this in the middle of a war, they need to introduce a ship or something that can mine Veldspar or other tritanium-heavy ores in massive quantities. You cannot simply take a sledgehammer to 0.0 markets without compensating for it. Do you want people to move into 0.0 and have self-sustaining economies? Don't go through with this patch. If you must go through with it, delay it till 2.3 so people can train up for the ORE capital and give it some way of compressing Trianium. Changing something like this, that affects EVERY SINGLE ASPECT of 0.0 logistics without giving time for producers to compensate for it is an extremely poor choice, and I hope you reconsider.
Ryouko Asakura	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:23:00 - [48] Originally by: Yuki Nagato People do not mine Veldspar in 0.0. Quoting for emphasis and animu reference.
Luaren Avidius	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:52:00 - [49] Edited by: Luaren Avidius on 12/08/2007 01:52:56 I cannot be silent on this incoming nerf. I operate a reprocessing business based in empire space. I buy modules from mission runners and then move them back to jita, where I do various things with them, more than often reprocessing a great lot of them. I'm not the only one that does this. Anyone ever wonder where Jita gets most of its minerals? A very large chunk of these minerals comes from people who operate simlar to me, by buying loot from empire mission runners and reprocessing it, and then doing various things with the resulting minerals. This nerf basically ruins a great deal of our business, because many, MANY of the modules that we buy have compression ratios higher than 5 to 1. Now those modules will be built and sold at full mineral price, but a character like myself, who has 100% refine on scrapmetal btw, will be unable to reclaim more than 80% of the minerals in these modules. This will lead to as much as a 20% falloff in mineral supply, which will lead to drastically inflated prices, which will also force me to cut my offers 20% on virtually everything I buy because of the decreased yeild, which takes income away from the people who sell to me, and forces people who buy minerals to waste even more when compressiong for shipment to 0.0. Basically, everybody in this rediculous, ill-concieved nerf loses, from the missioner who takes the time to loot that 425mm railgun he got, to the person who eventually refines it, to the person who ultimately buys those minerals for whatever purpose he has. CCP, you must seriously rethink your position on this nerf. Never before have I seen such an un-needed, warrantless nerf. If you want to get people to do mineral compression the way YOU want them to do it, there are a lot better ways to do it. Increasing the volume on the offending modules would be one way. Adding blueprints that allow people to compress at an actual 5:1 or higher ratio at a very rapid rate would be even better. This nerf has a LOT of collateral damage. Ratters, Missioners, Recyclers, Mineral Compression Specialists, 0.0 Mineral Markets, virtually anyone who loathes doing freighter runs because their mini empire needs trit. Please reconsider this nerf, CCP.
SajuurCor Free Collective The OSS	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:59:00 - [50] This honestly has to be one of the least thought out, unneeded changes I've ever seen out of CCP. Completely uncalled for, trying to justify the stats on a ship which is not all that useful. Instead of a simple: buy mins > build tractors > jump > refine tractors, you now have: mine veldspar > freighter to low sec > siege mode outside a station (no tank bonus) > jump > refine ... all for a LOT less minerals and likely 50 times the time and effort. You want people in 0.0, yet here you are forcing them to: a. mine in empire (not living in 0.0) b. mine veldspar in 0.0 (oooh thats profitable, guess ill move back to empire!) c. not have a solid market in 0.0 (who wants to live there?) I've got to wonder how things like this are even considered remotely by CCP, do you play this game, or just like trying to make new content that hurts it? ________________

Chief Wigwam	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:08:00 - [51] This is the most cretinous nerf I've ever seen. You're just trying to make it harder for people to get ships out in 0.0 to fight with? Why? Are you trying to get people to focus on logistics rather than fights? Or perhaps spend more time looking at the pretty backgrounds? The DDD compression ratios were a bit crazy but why are you going the extra mile to ensure you cripple all of 0.0 logistics? Incidentally, these are frankly are not in the finest of states throughout most of 0.0 space. Explain to me exactly who's gameplay will be improved by the change to mineral compression? Please CCP, try and remember people play this game for fun and to pointlessly reduce the ratio of fun time to grinding is really shooting yourself in the foot and stabbing your player base in the back. Stop this madness now. I'm deeply disappointed in you CCP.
HatfulOfHollow GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:27:00 - [52] Edited by: HatfulOfHollow on 12/08/2007 02:31:22 Jesus Christ, from the way you inter-nerds are crying over this thread you'd think it was about a 20% reduction to the size of hot pockets.
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:34:00 - [53] You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it.
Cillin MacroGenesis Industries	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:39:00 - [54] Edited by: Cillin on 12/08/2007 02:43:03 The Rorqual's **ty ore compression is no substitute for mineral compression as it exists now. Nor does this change make sense from the perspectives of: -Having fun playing the game -Populating 0.0 -Allowing smaller groups to participate in 0.0 -Minimizing the "grinds" in the game Does this make the game more fun? Does it make me want to log in and play? Or just throw in the towel out of boredom and frustration? This is akin to CCP denying us a skill queue... why? Because you like to grief us? That is the job of pirates, not devs. How about you aim to make the game more user friendly and enjoyable. The simple ability to transport building materials en masse, while powerful, does not itself break the game nearly as much as other "features" you choose to ignore. Put simply, ** this change. ----------------------------------------------
Shoukei Boobs Ahoy	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Big Al You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it. this one wins the thread. threatening to quit over "hey, you cant get all the minerals back after you reprocess the modules!". btw, can i get your stuff? here be signatures!
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:50:00 - [56] As someone who doesn't mine at all, all I can say is LOL. CCP kicks a game mechanic exploit right in the nuts, and now you guys don't like it. From a pirates perspective, everything about the change is good. Sure, prices of T1 and ship stuff will go up a bit, but that just means that the average cost of a fitted ship goes up, which means I can ask for a higher bounty every time I catch a target. The drop in T2 prices actually hurt pirating a lot. As did the drop in implant prices. Now when I threaten to pod someone or destroy their ship they just tell me to take a hike. "I have three more already built." Rigged ships get me a little more on the ransom side, but expensive rigs on a ship are more rare than you'd think. Anyway. Tons of my stuff have been getting nerfed for months. Now I see why people were laughing at my pain. Because it's fun when it's happening to someone else. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:51:00 - [57] another Nerf for the small guys. so the only way to get logistics done in 0.0 of any type of scale is if you have a titan or like goons develop a highway? what about the little guys the rely on mineral compression imports to get any type of real logistics done on a economical basis? also since most items in rating do have a fairly nice compression ratio your killing the value of the loot by 20% aswell. I'm sick and tired of you guys making "easy" fixes to things instesd of really getting creative and trying to fix a problem by addressing the source of the problem and not just do a cheap workaround.
Mestoth Minmatar Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:09:00 - [58] Kieron + Chronotis I actually (GOD FORBID) support the logic behind the stopping of mineral compression. It has, and would have always been an exploit. However, you have essentially fixed the exploit without looking at why that exploit needed to exist. Trit mineral density is pathetic. yeah sure, there is trit up the wazzoo in the Veld asteroids; but the density of the trit is rediculously low. you get MORE trit per hour by looting and refining Rat loot than you do by actually mining veld in a Hulk with t2 Crystals! at least down here in 0,0. Bringing in the ORE Capital ship is nearly irrelivent in this sense. yes, its a fantastic way to move raw ore about. However a CARRIER load of Veldospar is nothing! for Figures: Utilising DENSE VELDOSPAR as a base mineral (ie the +10%) My corp mates Carrier (Chimera) appropriatly fitted and loaded can haul 45Km3. That gives you a grand wopping total of 450,000 Veldospar that you can fit....which refines down to just over 1.475M trit. (or raw Trit 4,500,000) a Hulk with Exhumers V and Mining Upgrades V with Veld Processing V + 50% Station refine + station standing of 10, Refinary Effeciancy 5 (ie EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY COULD HAVE AT LEVEL V)...PER HOUR gets... 1.19million trit. If you rat for one hour you will end up with between 2-4million trit in refinables depending on the rats and your luck. Now we know that these new carriers can only hold ORE. Not minerals. so large volume mineral compression is out. So now i must speculate. My Obolisk freighter with Galente freighter IV lets me haul 900,000 m3 of stuffs (900KM3): If packed with Veldospar i get a Wopping 31.26m Trit at the end....after travelling 35+ jumps from the closest empire station. Or I load it with trit: 90 M Trit. Oooh WoW..you can get nearly 100 M trit.. Now lets break that down into actual Figures that we need. Assuming you have the OTHER minerals (lets not forget Pyerite is just as much a pain to haul as trit, just you need about half as much) you can build: From a: (based on a Raven requiring approx 7.2m trit per build) Freighter Load of Trit: 12.5 Ravens From a Freighter load of Veld: 4.34 Ravens From a Carrier Load of Veld: About 1/3 a raven. or 40,000 Bane Torpedos From a Carrier Load of Trit: About Half a raven or 100K bane Torpedos. Number of Hulk Hours to get a single Raven: 6 and a bit HOURS of Mining with no stops. from those figures you can CLEARLY see something is wrong. I mean, who is SERIOUSLY going to mine nearly 7 Hours of veld to get the TRIT alone. If you could make 4-5 million trit per hour of Veld, I would quietly STFU, but you cant. You can barely make 1 mil trit an hour! Or to simplify it to those who havent gotten it. Ratting you can make 20M an hour. Mining Ark or Bisot you can make 30-50m (gang bonuses etc) an hour. Mining Veld you can make 2m an hour....now as a builder i need to make somewhere, so dont be supried when my BS costs 400m Or: A raven needs 7.2ish million trit per Raven. At current price (high side of it), 3.3 per unit gives you 23millionish for trit (of a raven). If the price goes back up to 8...or more likely with this change, 12 per unit, well 7.2 X 12 gives you 86.4 MILLION isk JUST in trit....what..the other minerals come free as a set of steak knifes?!....add in the other 80m (assuming prices stay fixed) and your up to 160M+ for a raven. Add in profit, its 200M for a raven..... so in summary: CCP Fix the exploiting. FIX Veldospar. its pathetic in its current form Look at what your doing in terms of production; not in terms of pretty multipliers and Excell spread sheets 200M + Ravens and 40M cruisers here we come! Frigates going Hot fro 15M a pop either Drop the requirments of Trit per production item, or increase the ABILITY to aquire said trit. Mineral imporation was the ONLY way to get enough for ANY ship production. -Mestoth
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:10:00 - [59] Edited by: Big Al on 12/08/2007 03:12:00 Originally by: Shoukei Originally by: Big Al You'll be buying back all my jump portal generator bpos that have been cooking in the ME bin then. Oh wait, you don't care if you lose legitimate player accounts, plenty of farmers to make up for it. this one wins the thread. threatening to quit over "hey, you cant get all the minerals back after you reprocess the modules!". btw, can i get your stuff? This reply actually wins for being the most worthless, where did I threaten to quit genius? I merely said CCP doesn't care about people cancelling their accounts with the ample number of farmers ready and willing to take their place. You can have my soon-to-be worthless jump portal generator bpos though if you wish, I know they will increase your net worth by at least 100 times.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:15:00 - [60] and to add to this, I could see implenting this nerf if the ore ship acutaly helped with the procurement of lowends in 0.0, since that was prolly the best idea I saw for a 0.0 ore ship is a capital lowend miner that was innefective on highends.

Hamalicious Middle Finger Technology	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:17:00 - [61] Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic.
tornpain	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:18:00 - [62] Edited by: tornpain on 12/08/2007 03:20:59 Originally by: Luaren Avidius This nerf has a LOT of collateral damage. Ratters, Missioners, Recyclers, Mineral Compression Specialists, 0.0 Mineral Markets, virtually anyone who loathes doing freighter runs because their mini empire needs trit. Please reconsider this nerf, CCP. I have to agree with Luaren here. I'm a little confused why CCP thinks that 'fixing' mineral compression is so important...they want everyone using jump portals and freighters instead? Originally by: Hamalicious Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic. I have to say, adjusting volumes seems like a much more elegant solution. It seems logical if things like jump portal generators were as big as something like, say, the capital jump bridge array...
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:22:00 - [63] If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:23:00 - [64] Given the amount of logistics required, was it really a problem that I had figured out a way to stuff approximately a titan and a half worth of mins into a single carrier run? So are you going to enable me to repackage my JPG BPO's and sell them on the market for 0.01 isk less than the NPC's? Otherwise, I guess I see a forum auction in my future. What a useless, completely-unneeded change. By the way, gang links still don't work when you're in warp, and still use 50-100 more PG than is reasonable. But I suppose changing a flag on a single group of 15 modules is harder than coding a different set of refine outputs for 170 items? MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression!
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:25:00 - [65] Originally by: murder one If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. Exactly, if CCP doesn't do anything with belts as well then they'll have dozens of hulk macros in every belt within the month. It's like they haven't thought it through at all.
Mestoth Minmatar Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:26:00 - [66] Addit one: just saw this link: Rorqualhttp://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=568534&page=11#301 which gives me some more figures: 40-1 ratio for low ends. Veldospar in the cargo bay once compressed (and assuming you dont fill the rest of the spare spaced and corp bay and stuff..just cargo bay). 20Km3 X 40... 800,000...so essentially a freighters worth of dense Veld:...4 ravens worth... Oh ah Wow....and it will take FOUR people between 2.6-6.4 or whatever hours to fill. As i said previously; Nice ship, ABSOLOUTLY USELESS if there is no trit or pyerite available!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Seramyr l'Ethia Now that encryption skillbooks are being seeded, will there be an alternate source of income added to magnetometric exploration sites? They specifically said Encryption skillbooks would be excluded in the devblog. I won't comment too much on the compression nerf, but I have a a question. Why did you choose this specific nerf, what reasons to choose it over other possible nerfs to compression? What does it accomplish that increasing the volume of the affected items, shifting their construction requirements more toward high-ends, or otherwise tweaking their stats would not? It's probably even less work to go through those mods and tweak the stats to make em bigger, or composed of different stuff. Eh, at least the two dozen Passive Targeter BPOs I bought to research and sell were dirt cheap. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Montaire Lacedaemon. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:50:00 - [68] I see a lot of people bieng upset about mineral compression getting hurt. Keeping in mind that I am a serious hardcore 0.0 logistics officer, I love these changes. Mineral compression was basicly a completly broken work-around. It got around existing game mechanics in a way that was badly abused. Moving minerals around is not supposed to be easy. Its supposed to take freighters and haulers to do so. Ever see all the trucks running on the roads, or the trains - those are moving things. Logistics is a big deal and frankly right now its too easy. So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. And Motivated Profit said "I can move a titan and half of mins with one carrier" --- This is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. (Although my shares are probably going to get a hit) You shouldnt be able to do those things. Just because you've been able to borderline-exploit a broken mechanic for months doesnt mean that the mechanic shouldnt be fixed. Frankly the ease at which so many mins could be moved with such little risk was somthing I allways felt was wrong with EVE. Supply lines are CRITICAL, one of the most important things a real general has to deal with is getting his troops ammo, food and water. Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. Im VERY glad of these changes, and I think they will make eve a deeper, richer experience.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:53:00 - [69] Originally by: Montaire So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. so where does this veld come from? no one mines veld in 0.0 or even lowsec. I mean who would you get more trit rating than mining veld and you make more isk per hour mining anthing else. only people who mine veld are people in highsec where the ore cap ship can't go anyway so you won't see that compressed. this would be a valid argument if ore cap ships offerd some LARGE bonus to lowend mining but it doesn't.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:07:00 - [70] Originally by: Montaire Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. This will not make anyone mine any more trit than they currently are. The logistics routes will still be practically invulnerable carriers, with some jump bridging, but now jumping mods with a 20% loss on refine. The useless ORE ship? It can transport maybe 2 tier 2 battleships worth of trit in compressed veldspar, after you've spent hours wasting expensive stront compressing it outside some station in low-sec(assuming you didn't get bumped off the dock point by a nano ship, in which case your 2bn ship just died) after having it freightered in from your macro mining alts in high sec. Oh and actually jumping the ORE ship any noteworthy distance into 0.0 will cost you around 30m in isotopes, minimum. And now I'm just talking about the trit. As you can see, the ore ship is, as is, completely useless and I'm not sure if even CCP thinks anyone will even build one. Actually, this is another nerf to the smaller corps and alliances since the major players will just jump bridge 2 dozen freighter alts with their titans and call it a day.

Bubble Jet	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:30:00 - [71] And I thought CCP was doing good at making this game fun. Nevermind. This will be the final blow to EVE. You're absolutely killing off the ability to move low end minerals. The ORE capital ship is basically useless, except to only mine arkonor with. It is no way comparable with the current ability to compress minerals.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:34:00 - [72] Alright, ran the numbers on what compressions the compressed ores net you over just basic minerals. Assumption was that anything you can get in a highsec belt was to be 40-1 compression over base ore and everything else 20-1. Veldspar: 12-1 Scordite: 10-1 Pyroxeres: 4.14-1 Plagioclase: 3.51-1 Omber: 0.98-1 Kernite: 1.29-1 Jaspet 0.26-1 Hemorphite 0.12-1 Hedbergite 0.15-1 Gneiss 0.09-1 Dark Ochre 0.06-1 Crokite 0.07-1 Spodumain 0.05-1 Bistot 0.04-1 Arkanor 0.05-1 Mercoxit 0.01-1 However, that's a hell of a lot better than their unprocessed forms. Seems only the low-ends actually get compressed to smaller than the minerals they'll refine to. Now there's only one question: where are we gonna get all this Veldspar, and will compressing empire veldspar and jumping it out be more profitable than just eating the loss on Passive Targeters (20-1 Compression postnerf)? -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Qlanth Caldari Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:05:00 - [73] I just wanted to throw this in: As a person who flies a lot of ships in 0.0 space and loses them frequently, it is already difficult enough to keep up my income and pilot ships for battles that we need to win. With the introduction of more expensive ships because of this change, and the drop in ISK to be made from refining rat loot because of the same change, the ability for a person to field bigger ships is going to be even more difficult. The Rorqual will be able to hold something like 19 million Tritanium, not even enough to build 3 battleships. Not to mention that it will only be able to do this once people have actually acquired these ships (1-2 months after the release?). This is a terrible, terrible, decision. I do not understand why anyone would make their successful game harder and more frustrating. The fact that people stick with this game through the crippling lag of fleet warfare, and the changes you keep introducing to make this game more and more difficult (read: carrier nerf) really testifies to the incredible power and pull this game has on your customers. Please do not ruin 0.0 life for those of us who enjoy the large scale engagements and PvP. Listen to what these people are saying, and realize that it only makes things worse.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:12:00 - [74] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 12/08/2007 05:12:29 I hope CCP listens to the complaints and realize that this kind of stuff is what keeps 0.0 alive. Making things boring or more tedious will not make the game more interesting. Adhering to your 'vision' of the game might not make people like it more. We're not 'whining.' This will make life much harder in 0.0 space. After this nerf, there will be no viable way to get lowend minerals into 0.0 space, even with the capital mining ship and it's ore compression capabilities. Freighter runs aren't an option in 0.0 in most cases even with a Jump Bridge network, and it will not enrich the game if you start forcing people to do them because your 'vision' of EVE conflicts with how things have been done since almost the beginning.
Scavok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:19:00 - [75] This will do nothing but make the game more tedious.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:22:00 - [76] Edited by: MotherMoon on 12/08/2007 05:22:30 Originally by: Qlanth I just wanted to throw this in: As a person who flies a lot of ships in 0.0 space and loses them frequently, it is already difficult enough to keep up my income and pilot ships for battles that we need to win. With the introduction of more expensive ships because of this change, and the drop in ISK to be made from refining rat loot because of the same change, the ability for a person to field bigger ships is going to be even more difficult. The Rorqual will be able to hold something like 19 million Tritanium, not even enough to build 3 battleships. Not to mention that it will only be able to do this once people have actually acquired these ships (1-2 months after the release?). This is a terrible, terrible, decision. I do not understand why anyone would make their successful game harder and more frustrating. The fact that people stick with this game through the crippling lag of fleet warfare, and the changes you keep introducing to make this game more and more difficult (read: carrier nerf) really testifies to the incredible power and pull this game has on your customers. Please do not ruin 0.0 life for those of us who enjoy the large scale engagements and PvP. Listen to what these people are saying, and realize that it only makes things worse. who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:25:00 - [77] I can see it already. Jita Local: "Looking for 0.0 Macro ratters - Single or Corp appilications welcome". While also the other guys are writing on the same local: "Are you looking for a profitable way for earning your money ? Are you a miner ? If your answers to this questions are Yes, contact xyz for more information on our ore-buying Syndicate. You deliver the ore, we pay you 20% more then you can get on the refined minerals." Actually, yes. mineral Compression, is most likely an exploit. and while its true that capital size modules will yield you enormous amounts of minerals on a minimum on m¦ you will only get marginal numbers with lower modules, like passive targeters (arent those around the same value as teh mineral compression from those ships in 0.0/lowsecs on Veldspar are ?). I dont know what the intentions behind this project are, but looking at one of my previous poster showing teh compression rates on low to highend Ores with the new Ore Capital ship, its safe to assume, that they want to stop the compression of highend ores for only marginal losses. The only reasl reason, why someone would want to stop the importation of hughe amounts of numbers of highend minerals from empire into 0.0 while still leaving the capability to move marginally numbers of trit/pyerite and all those lowends ores can only be that they want to stop the currently quite easy way to get the minerals for super capitals from empire to 0.0 without real effort, there for making it easier to build those ships. Or who of you guys would go and mine like 738k zydrine and 325k Megacyte in 0.0 space if they could get it from empire without real effort to build they wyvern time mothership? Or would you go and mine 2.6 million Zydrine and 1.3 Million units Megacyte in 0.0 if you could have it in 0.0 buy buying it in Empire with buy-orders and through mineral contracts, which you can do without spending much time on it, then put it into production, and simply wait on it to finish, and they do a single freighter run for it ? The fact remains, that even now in normal 0.0 space (i dont know if the drone regions have really improved after the latest patches or not) the avaibility for mostly Tritanium is so much more bigger then for other mineral types, and that mineral compression especially for low-grade minerals with things like passive targeters, with their somewhat 20:1 ratio kept lots of 0.0 markets going. Now assuming my guesses on the intention for this fix are really to make it a bit harder to get your super capital the i make following solutions avaible for review that will not hurt the 0.0 markets, while not inflating empire prices on low grade ore. Those solutions might not work if you take all of em, but they might be an idea to thing about withthe right amount of balancing. Solutions: A.1) do not fix items like for example passive targeters, but fix high compression ratios >40:1 by either increasing the volume of teh build item. A.2) Include a System that will make the waste on teh item dependant on teh compression ratio, where for exampe a compresssion ratio of 430:1 gives you 25% waste a compression ratio of 40:1 will give you 10% of waste, while 20.1 goes for 5% waste. B.1) Seed a new type Low grade roids into systems below 0.0 that yield like 20% more then their empire equivalent. Example: mysterious Veldspar , where 333 Uniits will yield you 1400 Tritanium, or where you only need 250 units to get 1100 units trit. B.2) Seed a new type of strip miner, that ican only be activated below a specific security-status and grants you like 20% more yield for low grade ores like trit/pyerite then normal strip miners do. A T2 version could work like normal strip miners allowing teh use of crystals. Are those solutions an option if its CCP's intention to burn down importation on Highend ores into 0.0 ? And what do you think about the assumtion itself ? DSD - Accounting and More
Jadal McPieksu	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:35:00 - [78] Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:37:00 - [79] As I understand it modules with compression ratio 1:5 or lower will be unaffected. In my opinion rising built components size to correspond 1:5 ratio would have been better as this will nerf also honest ratters who loot to get minerals. But meh - we will adabt as always at the end of day. Overall many good things planned for rev 2.2 Hope to see it soon.
Shinhan Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 06:01:00 - [80] Originally by: MotherMoon who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. 1) Nobody mines veldspar in 0.0 2) Only empire miners mine veldspar 3) Rorqual cant go to empire. So, how is one supposed to get compressed veldspar for ferrying to lowsec when its not possible to compress the ore at the place where its actually mined? And thats ignoring the fact that a large (largest?) portion of trit comes from rat loot and not from veldspar. Now, if it were possible to compress Minerals and not only Ore... -- Selling apples, each costs 1 signature, limit of 1 per person :) ѼѼѼѼѼѼѼ

James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:02:00 - [81] Will these ore compression BPOs work in regular factory slots? That would fix a lot of issues.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:24:00 - [82] Originally by: MotherMoon who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. And where exactly am I supposed to get a Titan? Only the largest of alliances have those. They are not a practical solution. Here's an idea: Cut the size of trit by 50%, and pyerite by 25%, if not more. Logistics directors will love you. A lot of those insane compression ratios fall by 30-50%, then start tweaking the mods that remain on the 10-1 or better compression list. I can see nerfing refines on things that enter the game only by being player created. It means that they would be built only if they were expected to be used or sold. Say that Refineries lack the advanced equipment to properly handle such large and advanced components or some fluff like that. However, nerfing the refine value of T1 loot will have other consequences as well. A lot of T1 loot sells for very close to its mineral value, because its main use is reprocessing for minerals (the low end named are often actually cheaper, so many pilots use them on cheap fits). Nerfing the refine on these modules (BS weapons, some BS Mods, Armor Hardeners) will reduce their value as loot to their new perfect refine value, maybe plus a bit, as the named versions are cheaper and better. This is counterproductive to combating inflation, as less of the money from ratting will come from loot, and more (proportionately) from the bounties. As a result, less people loot and they go off to kill more rats faster, without the timesink of looting, bringing more ISK into the economy. Production of T1 modules has never been very profitable, except for a few that NPCs rarely drop in the nearby region. If the going rate on these mods is less than the minerals that need to go into them, due to their low popularity in fittings and lowered reprocessing value, it will become almost impossible to profit off making them. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:25:00 - [83] Originally by: James Duar Will these ore compression BPOs work in regular factory slots? That would fix a lot of issues. No, on the ORE Cap only. And the ORE Cap cannot build anything except compressed ore/ice. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Dash Vanderhuge	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:35:00 - [84] Just posting to say that I really don't like that mineral packaging change, as it just doesn't seem well thought out. While it's true that the whole produce->ship->refine at near-100% methodology seems a little broken, simply removing it after having it in the game for YEARS is not the way to go about changing that. It will disrupt empire markets, and throw 0.0 markets completely out of whack for months.
Peter Principle Bellum Aeternus The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:47:00 - [85] Originally by: Scavok This will do nothing but make the game more tedious. QFT Is there anyone who ENJOYS running slow as mollases in January Freighters anywhere? Is there any reason why we would WANT to do this more? Especially taking my 1B+ ISK worth Freighter into 0.0 space? Sure, Jump Bridges should help, but even a Freighter can't pull that much Trit into 0.0. It was already a pain, now you've just made it irritating. I've seen a number of positive changes recently that take some of the "work" out of EVE. The compression nerf is a step in the wrong direction, making something that was already a PITA into a REQUIRED PITA. sigh www.joinba.com
Desiderata Fabian GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:13:00 - [86] The compression nerf is an awful idea, the playerbase obviously see a massive demand for low end minerals out in 0.0, and using the sandbox format of the game have come up with ingenious ways to for fill that need. To remove it without a replacement is to not only massively damage the state of the market, but impinge upon the players creative use of the game mechanics, and ignore the reasons why the players have a need that is not being filled. The 0.0 lowend market needs to be supplied, if carriers with compressed materials are not supposed to be used in this fashion then surely the devs or from an RP point of view the nations of eve would see this as a hole that needs to be filled and provide a solution, like an Interbus jump capable freighter. If the demand exists why shouldnÆt there be the technology to fill it.
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:21:00 - [87] This sadly reminds me of Blizzard adding more and more ways to grind into their MMO. Please, rethink this.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:56:00 - [88] Well, there goes the last modicum of respect that Chronotis had. Rethink this nerf, or prices in 0.0 will skyrocket. You have removed the ONLY way to get bulk high-ends in 0.0, without replacing it. Please, think this through!!
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:09:00 - [89] Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:34:00 - [90] Originally by: Zenst Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt. Enlighten us. How exactly are we meant to move freighterloads of minerals without 50-man 8-hour escort ops without mineral compression? Short of using a titan, that is.

Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:36:00 - [91] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Zenst Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt. Enlighten us. How exactly are we meant to move freighterloads of minerals without 50-man 8-hour escort ops without mineral compression? Short of using a titan, that is. By living in a region with NPC stations right next door, silly!
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:37:00 - [92] I expect that people will quite happily pay 25% more for tritanium (aka passive targetters) if it's really so much work to move it around by any other means. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:39:00 - [93] Originally by: Fun Bunny Originally by: murder one If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. Exactly, if CCP doesn't do anything with belts as well then they'll have dozens of hulk macros in every belt within the month. It's like they haven't thought it through at all. Can I say that this argument is very funny? You all are arguing that moving minerals from the empires will be more difficult, but that you will increase the quantity of minerals imported? Notice a little contraddiction? I seem more probable that the middle range minerals in low sec will become a little more interesting, or tha tht tons of ratters that till yesterday where saying "I will not bother to look the rat lot unless it is from a faction ship" will start recovering it (or some in the same corp/alliance will gang up and recover it).
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:55:00 - [94] If you're going to do this, and I know you will (despite what's being said in this thread), PLEASE delay the change to 2.3 so people have time to train for the Rorqual and actually acquire one of them. This will have a massive impact on 0.0 ship prices and more likely than not grind 0.0 production to a halt for at least two months, and then people finally get into the ore compression business. You can't nerf 0.0 logistics like this right in the middle of a massive war without giving ample time to react and for the market to adjust.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:59:00 - [95] Originally by: Apocalytica Insomnia Now assuming my guesses on the intention for this fix are really to make it a bit harder to get your super capital the i make following solutions avaible for review that will not hurt the 0.0 markets, while not inflating empire prices on low grade ore. Those solutions might not work if you take all of em, but they might be an idea to think about with the right amount of balancing. Solutions: A.1) do not fix items like for example passive targeters, but fix high compression ratios >40:1 by either increasing the volume of the build item to bring them inline and make em useless for mineral Compression. A.2) Include a System that will make the waste on the item dependant on the compression ratio, where for exampe a compresssion ratio of 430:1 gives you 25% waste a compression ratio of 40:1 will give you 10% of waste, while 20:1 goes for 5% waste. B.1) Seed a new type Low grade roids into systems below -0.0001 that yield like 20% more then their empire equivalent. Example: mysterious Veldspar , where 333 Units will yield you 1400 Tritanium, or where you only need 250 units to get 1100 units trit. B.2) Seed a new type of strip miner, that can only be activated below a specific security-status (like below -0.0001) and grants you like 20% more yield for low grade ores like trit/pyerite then normal strip miners do. A T2 version could work like normal strip miners allowing teh use of crystals. [/quote A.2) good (I would like to see it for all the modues, even those with very low compression). Getting back 100% of the mineral used while recycling is simply absurd B.1) Ok, acceptable. B.2) Absolutely no. A little added info: as soon as the named mining upgrade start to work, mining will get almost a 10% increase, going over 15% if you use the best mining hardwiring.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:00:00 - [96] Originally by: Jadal McPieksu Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No) My educated guess: yes, and he approved it.
Gunship Amarr FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:02:00 - [97] Originally by: Keldjos Falzir I think CCP needs to ask itself what they are trying to accomplish with the mineral importation nerf. The effects I see are: 1) Making it even more painful and expensive to build large things in 0.0 systems by making it much harder to get low end minerals 2) Making 0.0 logistics even more of a pain in the ass 3) No visible or noticble effect to empire dwellers, except that their passive targeters and other high-compression moduals won't sell as well 4) An indirect nerf to NPC ratting income, because in 0.0 space close to 20-25% of the value of various NPCs is in their high mineral content loot like battleship guns and armor plates. So, where are the up sides? What great and valuable thing does this change bring to the game, because I'm not seeing it. If CCP's goal is to actually get people out of Empire space, then why make it even more difficult to establish and maintain a market in 0.0? Mining low end ores in 0.0 is a gross waste of time, and still will be even after this change, so all this does is make living in 0.0 space more difficult. /signed We need to be able to show huge benefits of mining ore in 0.0 space, specialy the "low" end. Rather than the few % "special" veldspar etc. it should be 200-300% and the further lightyears you are from empire the more it gives. This should be all about making empire space useless so there actualy is a need to come to 0.0 So you want to join us?
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:05:00 - [98] Well, have to chime in to this one..... I know we have to roll with the changes - Passive Targetter ME833 - Small Hull Repairer ME409.... ..and Small Tractor Beam at ME900 and still counting. And so, yes, I do question this change, although I did always find this Mineral Compression system very odd. However, if we're to have logic, then Reprocessing should be 80% across the board with no exceptions. Secondly - Mobile Labs going from 1 x Copy to Advanced Labs with 6 x Copy..... That's insane - and just makes the old Labs useless. Do yourself a favour - just make the old ones have 2, or possibly 3 x Copy slots - and 3 x Invention - make them the same. But 6 - that's just silly!
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:45:00 - [99] CCP, please think once again about this nerf for mineral compression and at least delay it a bit. Where do you want us to get all the trit which we need in 0.0? a) Do you want us mine it in 0.0? Won¦t happen as miners normally mine the ore, which brings the most profit. Mining veld (or similar) brings about 1/5 of mining high end ore. Sure, it¦s possible to do alliance-mining ops just to mine low-ends, but your members won¦t like it. So if you want us to mine low-ends in 0.0 (or low-sec) you need to improve the roids. b) You want us to buy the trit (veld) in empire? Make it possible to compress veld in empire or make it even possible to compress trit. Another option would be to give us a better option to pass the high-sec - low-sec "barrier" with loads of ore. In low sec we could use a rorqual at a POS for ORE-compression. But it¦s too risky (or too much effort) to fly x-times with a freighter into low-sec with all the uncompressed ore. I could see a T2 freighter (but should not cost too much) with increased defense-ablities so that can survive much longer. Another point which comes to my mind are NPC-hauler spawns in 0.0: At the moment they are dropping refined minerals, specially loads of tritanium. But very often the trit is left in the belt, because it would take too much effort, to move it to the next station (or production POS). I think it would be an improvement, if these haulers drop compressed ore instead. It would be easier to fetch and it would even fit better within RP. [Why should NPC-miner be able to refine ore within the belt, but players aren¦t able to]
Arrs Grazznic FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:49:00 - [100] Originally by: Hamalicious Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic. /signed ***** around with something like this just end up penalising too many people and **ing off many more. Fix lag and desync issues before making these unnessacerry changes. Cheers, Arrs

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:05:00 - [101] The compression nerf is stupid and only hurts the small people. Bah. The large alliances are rich enough, they don't care about 20% loss they will just continue to use the modules to compress ore. But the small alliances and corps, they struggle already and this nerf is another burden on them. Why? I cannot see any use! Also the large alliances use their titans to jump around freighters, so no biggies for them. And the small people? Again they are messed up. CCP, do you really want that sort of game? I thought you want to populate 0.0 and make it more attractive. You just do the contrary. But maybe this is another 'need for speed' ... What was wrong with mineral compression anway? Ohhh, you don't use freighters for moving minerals...bad bad baaad people. Here comes the nerf bat! Ohhh, you don't play the game as CCP intended it? Baaaad, baad, now hush up and use freighters and no more mineral compression! This nerf won't change anything except that people will get upset and unhappy. You (thoughtless) destroy the gameplay for many people, especially small corps, and what do you introduce instead? Nothing!! Don't come with the new ORE ship, that is not nearly a substitute, how many people can and want to fly that, not many? But there are many people who are working in the supply business, making blueprint copies of compression modules, selling packages of compressed minerals and so forth. Why destroying all that???
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:08:00 - [102] Edited by: Inspiration on 12/08/2007 11:09:25 "When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required." I feel kicked in the balls for aparently no good reason by this change. You are deliberatly making perfect refine go broke, aka introduce a BUG! I am one of the people that bought and improved BPO for the T1 modules that have useful compression factors. These BPO are pretty useless for manifacturing T1 gear as hardly anyone uses those modules, and we aren't all up in T2 production. So their only other purpose beside T2 BPC production is mineral compression. And now CCP is gona tell me that because they introduce a new low sec only ship, the compression of certain minerals by T1 modules is gona get nerfed by making perfect refine not work on them properly? What on earth is the change useful for? Do you realy recon the new capital ship is useless without this change being made? THINK! And why is mineral compression using some T1 modules, so evil that it has to be removed? THINK Or why 100% efficient refining for that matter, people trained heavy skills to be able to do this! THINK! On top of this, low end minerals are in short supply, this change will also affect mission loot refining and thus the profit of mission running. THINK! I ain't running missions anymore, but I just like to indicate that change affects all! I just see this particular change (making perfect refine go broke on certain modules) as griefing, even tho I personaly won't be financialy affected by it. Why do you guys always manage to screw cool idea up at the last possible moment? THINK!
Cail Fortestan M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:12:00 - [103] Quote: The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. There is a HUGE non-sequitur right there in the original blog. How exactly does the Rorqual help me get the 1.5 Bill minerals needed for a Mothership out to 0.0 ? Mining would take approx 550 hours just to get the Trit. This will add a straight 20% inflation to the cost of building in 0.0 Unless there are some other major changes at the same time, this is just a plain Nerf. Why not admit that, rather than dress it up as a balance change ? And does "officially supported manner mean" ? Does it mean that mineral compression is officially supported but with a 20% penalty, or that the Rorqual is the only officially supported way for compressing anything ? CCP must have the figures for number of JPGs build and refined, so they know exactly how much effect this change will have. -- M. Corp.
Inspiration	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:21:00 - [104] Edited by: Inspiration on 12/08/2007 11:22:07 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Jadal McPieksu Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No) My educated guess: yes, and he approved it. Well, from my common man perspective, the profession is highly overrated. It's scientificaly proven that you can't proove everything, and also that models aren't perfect. On top of that they are phrone to idiology. How often are market watchers and say stock-market advisers right.....answer....less then random chance! Might as well hire a bunch of monkeys to press buttons in anticipation of bananas!
Claudia Grant Gallente Quantum Synergies YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:23:00 - [105] I am litterally at a loss for words. First you nerf mineral compression. But doing so late after super capitals has entered the game it creates a massive disparity between newcomers and the big blocks in eve. As usual. Now were litterally in deep ***. The warning is so short that we cant recuperate losses neither. Spending massive amounts of ISK on the Jump Portal Generator Bpo¦s for the "right" to compress minerals are also just a "too bad" situation. So albeit compression ratio is indeed phenomenal it is also extremely time consuming and expensive. Jump portal generators costing almost half a billion isk pr bpo, research taking several weeks pr run and not to mention the build time which is staggering high. All that account for nothing. nerf nerf nerf Which leaves small and mid-sized corporations in economic ruin. One thing is changing something because it has an adverse effect but make sure you give investors an oppertunity to recouperate instead of just sinking their efforts. Its not like it falls under "you should know better" enither. Eve-search will reveal massed posts where this compression ratio is talked about in the open from long time ago. No snip* or warning posted. In fact it just looked like mineral compression as usual with the addendum that if you wanted excellent mineral compression you pay the isk. Massively disspointed.
Schneiderr Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:28:00 - [106] not that i think those changes are needed regarding the mineral compression, but what i want you to do is... FIX THE DAMN DESYNC AND CONNECTION ISSUES, they still exist. btw. with all those new copy slots that will be introduced with the new labs, do you plan to actually buy an own database cluster just for all those BPCs coming or will they temporarily fill the cache of the existing one reduce the players lag free gaming experience even more?
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:30:00 - [107] Originally by: Mestoth Or: A raven needs 7.2ish million trit per Raven. At current price (high side of it), 3.3 per unit gives you 23millionish for trit (of a raven). If the price goes back up to 8...or more likely with this change, 12 per unit, well 7.2 X 12 gives you 86.4 MILLION isk JUST in trit....what..the other minerals come free as a set of steak knifes?!....add in the other 80m (assuming prices stay fixed) and your up to 160M+ for a raven. Add in profit, its 200M for a raven..... Or you can just start to refine some common NPC goods for 3.01 isk per trit (3.71 isk per trit if it get nerfed). We're sorry, something happened.
Largo leGrande	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:33:00 - [108] I'm involved in building motherships and the only impact this change will have for me is that from now on all ships I sell will cost 20% more than they did before. I don't know if that is CCP's objective, but that's the only effect it will have for a lot of the supercap builders. We'll just continue to use compression and pass the costs on. Mine low ends in 0.0? No. Ship trit from empire in freighters? No. Just 20% extra cost. There is enough work involved in supercap building and logistics, none of us are looking for any extra. Largo
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:00:00 - [109] This is madness. I'm starting to get the idea CCP really just doesn't get it. All work and no play makes capsuleers dull people. The new ORE compression concept is for the 0.0 TO EMPIRE focus. The current mineral compression is for EMPIRE TO 0.0 So, on the one hand you've had folks build refineries, upgrade stations, and then you make it simple and effective to just give the finger to stations and go to empire, again. At the same time, you are giving the concept of mineral compression such an imbalanced slap in the face that it almost makes me laugh. Mineral compression is a lifeline for most of 0.0. We're not talking about supercapitals here. We're talking about keeping the warmachines going, and at the pace of warfare in 0.0 you rely on mineral compression, unless ofcourse you base from empire space. Come on. This devblog focus has managed to tie together a number of conceptual issues addressing them as one while each is an individual concept issue. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:06:00 - [110] Originally by: Gnulpie The large alliances are rich enough, they don't care about 20% loss they will just continue to use the modules to compress ore. But the small alliances and corps, they struggle already and this nerf is another burden on them. Ever thought of how stupid refining outposts and the recently introduced upgrades are now that there's ore compression? Consider the mechanisms of taxation and resident programs. This is more then a slap in the face of small alliances and new comers, it's a slap in the face of anyone. It shows a structural lack of understanding of the differences between theory and practicality of concept implementation. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug

Cringeley GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:13:00 - [111] Wait, does any of this have to do with the fact that Dr.Eyj=G's background is in "experimental economics"? Are we being used as research subjects?
Francesca Dell'Agio	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:22:00 - [112] Originally by: Cringeley Wait, does any of this have to do with the fact that Dr.Eyj=G's background is in "experimental economics"? Are we being used as research subjects? Always. But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense.
Sha Kharn Minmatar STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:25:00 - [113] just put 36 jump portal gens in the oven and found this the next day bloody great. I stand to loose billions thanks for the warning CCP.
Altaree Red Frog Investments	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:33:00 - [114] Chronotis, No fair kicking over this anthill and then going away for the weekend.
Twarda Sztuka	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:33:00 - [115] My 0.02 ISK: Let's start with the logic behind it. When you read stuff on Orange Juice boxes, see how many is made from concentrate. Players also create their version of concentrate. Please remember that players didn't actually think "Let's find exploit". No they have found a way to get something done. There should be a method of compressing minerals anyway. CCP didn't care about it for a long time. So what's changed? They want to introduce a new ship that can compres stuff. But will players actually use it? Hell no! Compression will work only in one direction - From 0.0 to empire. Bulk of the minerals that is transported in compressed version is the low-grade minerals for transport to 0.0 (mostly for production of Capital Ships). The new ship won't help. Even if it could compress in Empire for transportng to 0.0, still compression ratio will be lower than compressing by making modules. What have CCP done. They decided that it is the time to block this "Exploit" (!). So please, please, please don give us BS (and I don't mean Battleship) about "balanced manner". Please try to explain why transpoting minerals this way is a bad thing. It doesn't change current game balance. Hauling is tedious job anyway. Changing it will increase inflation way more than band of macro farmers and people who sell ISK for money. Additionally it will **** off everyone who is using rat loot for reprocessing (as most Production Corps do in 0.0). They will have to spend more time ratting and less producing. Please check how many people complained aboyt things like drone interface or adding timer to modules display. Then compare with how many said "There is huge problem... people are compressing minerals and it makes game unbearable". You are trying to fix a delicate ballance by throwing grenade in and hoping that it will improve things. Well it bloody won't! I can see possible solutions to this: A) Create a module "Mineral Transport System". Create new skill "Mineral Transport". New module would have insane CPU and/or Powergrid requirements, but it would be cut by 99.9 used on Freighters (They would need actually slot for it) and Capital Ships. Module would allow transporting Minerals and unprocessed ore compressed in ratio 75:1 for each level of Mineral Transport skill. So with skill at level 5 it would compress minerals by 375:1. Then see how much people would actually use the "Exploit". B) Create option that will allow similiar compresion (both direction). It should be done anyway. Allow it to be used in high-sec. Also make it competetive to 430:1 compresion currently used. C) Leave it as it is. I still think your new ship will be useful for mining operations, but its compression wont be used for hauling to Empire. It would be mostly used for short range hauling mined ore to nearest station. But there is a bright side. This idea just become number 1 on the list of 10 worst ideas proposed by CCP. (It is the 7th on the list of worst ideas ever and climbing up).
Jifai	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:34:00 - [116] So all mission module loot will be nerfed by 20%?
Okotomi Anki	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:40:00 - [117] Originally by: Francesca Dell'Agio But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense. Very interesting. Thank you for the info. Can you provide any proof? Not in this thread, of course.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:46:00 - [118] 80% minerals instead of 100% like before : my ratting loot = 0.8 what was my ratting loot in rev 2.1. -> -=-=-
Sigmorhair Gallente Eisenmetal	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:59:00 - [119] So who does this benefit most? Alliances with lots of titans. Oh look it just happens to be Band of Developers. WHAT A SHOCK!
Metaller Ocean Dynamics Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:00:00 - [120] Originally by: There are approximately 170 items currently on Tranquility with compression ratios over 5:1. When Revelations 2.2 is deployed the manufacturing costs of these items will remain unchanged, however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required. Material transport will still be possible after Revelations 2.2, but it will no longer be profitable to do so. Are you serious about that??? How are we in the drone regions supposed to make isk now??? We rely on compressing minerals to transporst them to empire to sell them for isk??? That will not be possible now. You are screwing our whole income. And the new indy cap ship doesnt help with that since you cant compress the minerals you get from alloys as far as i understood it! This fixed needs to be changed!!

Sigmorhair Gallente Eisenmetal	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:03:00 - [121] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: Zenst Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt. Enlighten us. How exactly are we meant to move freighterloads of minerals without 50-man 8-hour escort ops without mineral compression? Short of using a titan, that is. This benefits Bob more than anyone. Are you surprised that they like it? Hell he probably asked for it on MSN.
Mynas Atoch Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:04:00 - [122] It took us three minutes (going over out of favour soltions), and then a bit longer proving it with spreadsheets, to come up with a cost effective alternative production process for supercaps. CCP, you guys need to play this game more, actually INSIDE the main alliances, to understand how it works.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:05:00 - [123] Just realising something. With all this being a slap in the face of younger organisations trying to compete in 0.0 warfare (not ganks, but war) and CCP thinking to throwing a bone and hoping to address their perceived problem of too many supercapitals in game ... established organisations will only get pushed even more to invest in supercapitals. Jumpbridge networks are a liability for logistics, and only a feasible instrument of shipping people into the combat zone, furthermore they are incredibly expensive. Freighters in 0.0 are a joke :P So with combat and logistics being as close as they are, folks will have to take the road to keeping the game fun, and not work, and investing in, yes, more supercapitals and more and more to facilitate the logistics :P Has anyone been thinking at all about consequences of these changes from an organisational point of view at all? Counterproductive is the word here, and nerfing the opportunity of younger organisations to even begin to compete or try to. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Okotomi Anki	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:07:00 - [124] Ok guys, chill abit. The "nerf" is bad, but not as bad as you think. First, battleships in 0.0 would go up in price only by 10%, not 20%. Not a big deal. However, the only way i see lowends transported ATM is from 0.0 to empire, i really dont understand what is all those people are concerned about. 0.0 space has really huge NPC hauler spawns. I have seen 75m trit + 25m pyerite spawns quite regularily. Pain to haul it to station, i know, but you get minerals for free! If you pay for lowends in 0.0 more than in empire, then your ratters are lazy. I do pay half the empire price most of the time. So, stop whining about empire-to-0.0 hauling nerf! Lets start crying about 0.0-to-empire nerf!!! Supercap production may suffer full 20%, i agree. Because some are too lazy to compress lowends separately from high-ends. About the loss of income for NPC ratters and mission runners. There is a way CCP can get around it. Just lock some guys in the office untill they fix ALL the loot tables, adding 20% more stuff in the process.
Sha Kharn Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:07:00 - [125] Originally by: Virtuozzo Just realising something. With all this being a slap in the face of younger organisations trying to compete in 0.0 warfare (not ganks, but war) and CCP thinking to throwing a bone and hoping to address their perceived problem of too many supercapitals in game ... established organisations will only get pushed even more to invest in supercapitals. Jumpbridge networks are a liability for logistics, and only a feasible instrument of shipping people into the combat zone, furthermore they are incredibly expensive. Freighters in 0.0 are a joke :P So with combat and logistics being as close as they are, folks will have to take the road to keeping the game fun, and not work, and investing in, yes, more supercapitals and more and more to facilitate the logistics :P Has anyone been thinking at all about consequences of these changes from an organisational point of view at all? Counterproductive is the word here, and nerfing the opportunity of younger organisations to even begin to compete or try to. OMG Im on the same page as Virt for once.... Yes its a PUN
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:08:00 - [126] Originally by: Mynas Atoch CCP, you guys need to play this game more, actually INSIDE the main alliances, to understand how it works. Signed. They're either too compartimentalised, too focused on the marketing, or too detached it almost seems. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:11:00 - [127] Originally by: Okotomi Anki the only way i see lowends transported ATM is from 0.0 to empire, i really dont understand what is all those people are concerned about. 0.0 space has really huge NPC hauler spawns. I have seen 75m trit + 25m pyerite spawns quite regularily. Pain to haul it to station, i know, but you get minerals for free! Wait till someone living in the drone regions sees that. No hauler spawns, at all. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Zingo Aleig	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:18:00 - [128] Edited by: Zingo Aleig on 12/08/2007 13:20:03 ore compression is shaping up to be a ****ty replacement for mineral movement. This because it is going to take more effort, more risk and more isk for much less minerals moved per m3. CCP, why not boost the lower tier ore's in 0.0, so mineral compression is not needed anymore? That would actually be a solution instead of replacing a player devised patch job with one by ccp. honestly we should just follow bob's example, titan+ freighters, much better then wasting isk and time on your mining capital idea ccp.
Okotomi Anki	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:20:00 - [129] Originally by: Virtuozzo Wait till someone living in the drone regions sees that. No hauler spawns, at all. Well, their main concern was about transporting the minerals to empire markets, wich is exactly my point.
Jacob Majestic GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:21:00 - [130] In EVE there has always been a basic symmetry between production and consumption. You have always been able to build items for X and refine those items for the same X, minus a few percentage points based on your refinery and skills. Breaking this symmetry, even for as few as 170 items, could have profound affects on the EVE economy. Has there been any research on the probably economic affect of this change? Seems like it should be Master's Thesis work, at least. How will it affect empire markets? What is your projective time for the price shocks to level out? How do you think this will affect Empire and 0.0 fleet composition? How do you think this will affect capital producers? Do you think capital producers will be more or less able to respond to rapidly-changing demand? How does this affect moving material to and from 0.0 space in terms of man-hours per 100km3 moved? Are you even planning on doing the research and crunching the numbers to see what tearing down this fundamental symmetry will do to the economy? --- Originally by: steamy thank you Hippoking for doing a Jacob on the goons

Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:21:00 - [131] Nerfing mineral compression sounds like a good thing: - Means a lower supply of low end minerals in Highsec. - Makes low end minerals more expensive in Highsec. - Ensures newbies find it profitable to mine in Highsec. Common elements are not supposed to be profitable when shipped large distances, they are to be used locally. Makes location a lot more interesting and tactically challenging. Mineral compression will still happen, but not for profit, but rather for logistics... What i'm concerned with is the new 80% reprocessing limit, i'm concerned that they'll forget to adjust loot tables, i think it'll mean a 20% reduction in profits for mission runners and ratters, who are very dependand on loot dropped (most of which is recycled).
Zingo Aleig	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:24:00 - [132] Originally by: Cergorach Nerfing mineral compression sounds like a good thing: - Means a lower supply of low end minerals in Highsec. - Makes low end minerals more expensive in Highsec. - Ensures newbies find it profitable to mine in Highsec. you're missing something. You export low ends from high sec. less compression, means more minerals staying behind in high sec, so bigger supply, lower prices on low ends in high sec, etc
Admus Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:25:00 - [133] While it is going to be more difficult for titan-less groups in 0.0, there can be no doubt the the jump portal generators and other such items were gross workarounds to shift materials. While there might be an argument that there should be a better way to compress ore than a 2 billion capital hauler, you can't keep it the way it is now. Perhaps it is the devs' intent that ship acquisition in 0.0 become harder? It would help to alleviate the capital ship spam and revert fleet mainstays back to battleships - though capital blobs are needed due to POS and sovereignty mechanics . The other thing the ore capital seems to encourage is more low-sec/0.0 mining, and less reliance on empire minerals in 0.0 warfare. I don't know how far this will go, though, since it is so much more profitable to mine other ores in 0.0 - and profit is more desirable due to the common threat of a roaming gank squad. I'm not really sure what to make of all this yet. Some insight from the dev team as to what they envision 0.0 warfare and logistics to be. It would be nice to understand the reasons to why mineral transport will be so difficult, why the POS spam and such is there, and what they intend with it all. ---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way."
Cker Heel Interstellar Starbase Syndicate Operations Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:28:00 - [134] Has anyone calculated the what the new price caps on minerals would be? The tritianium cap must be over 3isk after this. Changing refinery mechanics is a very fundamental change to the t1 market. Wider min/max prices on minerals, no more refiners to mop up t1 gear sold below mineral costs, and rat/mission loot worth substantially less. If CCP increases loot drops to compensate, building t1 for profit becomes that much harder. Buckle your seat belts. t1 is going for a wild ride.
Lazaroth Caldari Quantum Synergies YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:31:00 - [135] well this pretty much kills the hope for the little guys who had any hope or dreams about building the big stuff. I'm sorely disappointed there has to be a better way then this.. Laz
Montaire Lacedaemon. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:38:00 - [136] Originally by: Lazaroth well this pretty much kills the hope for the little guys who had any hope or dreams about building the big stuff. I'm sorely disappointed there has to be a better way then this.. Laz No, it doesnt. In about 30 mins me and 5 other Logistics people worked completely around this issue in a cost effective way that was only about 10% more time consuming than our current method. What this does is increase the probability that any mineral you use will be MINED instead of originating in reprocessed loot. Which overall isnt necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who take a few mins to reason on this issue is goingto realise its NOT a bad thing.
Aelicia	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:42:00 - [137] to all the ppl that have invested billions of isk in capital production and for u to completely eradicate that isk into complete nothingness is complete insanity on your behalf. how can u even entertain the thought of this mineral nerf. ppl have paid their subscriptions to play eve and if they have chosen to, build capitals. by u doing this u have stripped all that hard work away from them in one fell swoop, which to me represents nothing less than CCP stealing their players r/l money.
Lazaroth Caldari Quantum Synergies	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:45:00 - [138] Originally by: Montaire Originally by: Lazaroth well this pretty much kills the hope for the little guys who had any hope or dreams about building the big stuff. I'm sorely disappointed there has to be a better way then this.. Laz No, it doesnt. In about 30 mins me and 5 other Logistics people worked completely around this issue in a cost effective way that was only about 10% more time consuming than our current method. What this does is increase the probability that any mineral you use will be MINED instead of originating in reprocessed loot. Which overall isnt necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who take a few mins to reason on this issue is goingto realise its NOT a bad thing. I wonder if you would share this awsome solution with the rest of us? otherwise it's for the winds.. I'm talking about the trasporting of this stuff.. not wether it comes from mining or loot
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:49:00 - [139] That is an important question indeed: Are large turrets included in thos 170 modules with more than 5:1 compression? If yes, that is a decrease of about 8-12% income for 0.0 ratters, and 3-5% for mission runners. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Claudia Grant Gallente Quantum Synergies YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:50:00 - [140] Originally by: Montaire Originally by: Lazaroth well this pretty much kills the hope for the little guys who had any hope or dreams about building the big stuff. I'm sorely disappointed there has to be a better way then this.. Laz No, it doesnt. In about 30 mins me and 5 other Logistics people worked completely around this issue in a cost effective way that was only about 10% more time consuming than our current method. What this does is increase the probability that any mineral you use will be MINED instead of originating in reprocessed loot. Which overall isnt necessarily a bad thing. Anyone who take a few mins to reason on this issue is goingto realise its NOT a bad thing. Yes it does. People with titans and established Jump bridges = np. Anyone else = fubared. It makes the blance even more screwed up as the smaller organizations will completely loose any competitive situation to be in, not to mention how Drone Regions people must feel now. again I might add. And to say "we have found this and that dont mean squat. Proof or be quiet. If it was almost the same if would not be such a big issue in the first place. Claiming in obscurity that secret methods are an alternative doesnt help this debate.

Benedic Minmatar The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:51:00 - [141] So this benefits: Alliances with titans People who hate 0.0 People who hate mission runners Sounds great! (if only we didn't own a bunch of mineral compression bpos)
Freyja Swater	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:58:00 - [142] Well isint this a sweat Ass** from CCP More like a *of the entire game on ther behalf the smal corps like mine that have tens of bilions of isk stuck inn mineral compression and compression Bpo right now and wont be out until after the patch basickli sinks our dream of having a capitol ship pilots and ruins the corp wallet and its members whitch donetid billions for this dream and ho are ccp (FIXING) the game for well for 1 thing not the smal corps or allyances not the guy slaving in empire but the allyances that allredy have the most motherships and in the way *** upp the (Player controled econamy) can CCP ** the small guy inn a better way yes thay can by banning corps with less than 2 titans from the game witch will be the next thing thay anonce on monday
Lord Loom Loom Service Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.12 13:59:00 - [143] Edited by: Lord Loom on 12/08/2007 14:00:31 Originally by: murder one If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. or even better, remove high-sec, AMIRITE? oh, you forgot to add some call to boost gallente ships to your pathetic "waah waah, everyone against pirates, no fair" whining YOU ROX, no really... RE: Devblog: this nerf is more 'tarded than the one to bulkheads, and that says a lot ---------- KEEP TRY!!!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:16:00 - [144] Originally by: Okotomi Anki Originally by: Francesca Dell'Agio But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense. Very interesting. Thank you for the info. Can you provide any proof? Not in this thread, of course. I dubt she can, but what was important is to throw the accusation. Proof is a secondary matter. And that is why I hate tinhattery.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:42:00 - [145] Haha, I didn't even think about the drone region people. God they must be annoyed with getting stomped on by CCP with every patch.
Zaphroid Eulthran Minmatar Imperial Visions	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:44:00 - [146] Has anyone considered the problems now with moving minerals in Hisec? It was difficult enough moving volumes to factories anyway, now its uncompressable? Industry (its not just mining) needs mini freighters. The vast majority of manufacturing corps cant, (or just plain dont want to) blow 1 BILLION ISK, and the training time, on a ship far too large for what they need. The biggest transport ships are to small for minerals and product hauling, freighters are overkill. 150,000m3 is a nice number. Warning, sig starts here, Imperial Visions, Now 756448 seconds since our last fatality Gis dekcajih a ton!
Liv Dawn PPN United Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:59:00 - [147] well well. all these changes seem reasonable and stuff. what i do not get is why the skills we learned so long for (scrapmetal processing) are nerfed. you could just have increased the volume of the items so the compression rate is appropiate again but not taking away the use of a skill which took quite a long time to train for. yeye, you shrink the supply of minerals too this way but this seems like a fast added idea than a well rounded concept. please do not alter existing game mechanics by trying to close an exploit.
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:12:00 - [148] Edited by: Apocalytica Insomnia on 12/08/2007 15:20:47 Originally by: Admus It would help to alleviate the capital ship spam and revert fleet mainstays back to battleships - though capital blobs are needed due to POS and sovereignty mechanics You sir, need to be informed that you can build Carriers and Dreadnoughts in lowsec, and that this is most popular place where those ships are beeing build, cause the Cheep and easy mineral flow is just 2-4 jumps away, in your frighter. Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders Accounting and More
Laendra	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:13:00 - [149] Yipee, making this even more like a r/l job for the win \o/ </sarcasm> -------------------
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:13:00 - [150] I took a dip in the pool to cool down, but then something else struck me. Wouldn't it have been rather nice to - if CCP insists on putting Citadel Torps into how people play the game - introduce this a decent amount of time before introduction so folks could adjust skill queues, investments, production programs with hundreds of billions of isk invested instead of dropping this on folks out of the blue. Investments which are pretty much a writeoff for a good portion of their value as it is clear now what the consequences will be. What is this? Throwing people a quick bone in the hope that the grand theory of that bone will solve things which in practice are a lot different then how content design has been able to investigate? Or is it not having enough capacity for checking interdependancies of features or even checking how feature elements have different then planned in game integrations? While at the same time giving a pretty hard kick in the teeth of the concept of competition between younger and older organisations in game. Btw. It will be quiet from the drone regions people for a bit. They are all shell shocked. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug

Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:24:00 - [151] Originally by: Virtuozzo Btw. It will be quiet from the drone regions people for a bit. They are all shell shocked. As a former drone Region inhabitant, i feel the same, but i have to tell you that it looks as dark where you are at now, and yes, dipping in a pool did a great deal, but then again - they can go where pepper refuses to grow. man am i **ed atm Apocalytica Insomnia Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders Accounting and More
Kalkin84 STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:29:00 - [152] Edited by: Kalkin84 on 12/08/2007 15:30:44 lol @ virt... Whats the eta of this patch? I have a friend with several dozen JPGs in the oven (a personal investment, not for corp or alliance) and would hate to see him get (insert past-tense version of 4 letter word starting with "f") by having this announced after he started the build but deployed before the build finishes. That would be lame. More notice on serious and fundamental changes to game operation is both polite and justified. -Kalkin EDIT: I spell like a drunk horse.
Fedrack	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:33:00 - [153] Originally by: Arthur Pewty I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. Arthur Pewty /Signed with cherry on the top
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:35:00 - [154] Originally by: Kalkin84 I have a friend with several dozen JPGs in the oven (a personal investment, not for corp or alliance) and would hate to see him get (insert past-tense version of 4 letter word starting with "f") by having this announced after he started the build but deployed before the build finishes. That would be lame. He's um, shall we say, impaled? At least for the print investments and the continuation of his venture. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Hillesumos Minmatar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:37:00 - [155] This mineral compression nerf is not going to change much really since what is expensive to do is not collecting the minerals but bringing them to the place where they are needed. By changing the mineral reprocessing rate on variuos items, you will automatically increase the overall mineral cost of production in low sec and 0.0 since as stated it will be still a lot cheaper to mine hih end minerals and import lowend mineral with a 20% import tarif. So it will make trit more expensive in 0.0 BUT it will also make high end more expensive in high sec. After rereading the blog, i am wondering: was this change made to fix an issue considered as an exploit or it was done to imprint a new dynamic to the eve market? Mineral compression per se is not an exploit since it respond to a basic economic need to bring low value stuff in massive amount to a place and it is a lot cheaper to do it this way than to mine it. Carrying raw minerals even with 20% tarif is not valuable since you do not have a safe and profitable way to do so. This nerf is just a trade tariff imposed between empire and 0.0 that will be reflected on the price of ships in 0.0 (about 15% more expensive) and on the price of high end in empire. It will not fix the compression issue and even the new ore capital ship won't make a dent on it since it can ony carry 200km3 of stuff approximately. The eve economy will adapt to this change but you just put a 15% tax on ships. --------- Sadly I just make ISK, I don't print it. :(
Rafein	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:48:00 - [156] the Mineral compression thing can all be avoided, if alliances allow industrial corps access to their space, to mine/build, while the PvPers fight. I would think the BoB method would be best, charge a tax on corps, and give them access to a few systems. There, they mine, rat, build. Generally create a market, that the hosting Alliance has access to. End result, more targets in 0.0, and Alliances will have less dependence upon Empire for basic production. However, I think most people will still move ore at the best compression rate after the nerf. Since they are only nerfing the items that Compress at more than 5:1, they will simply move to the mods that compress 4:1
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 15:52:00 - [157] It's not the compression nerf. It's the methodology, the approach, the ignoring of consequences, the perception of absence of care. In a nutshell. The consequences will be there in game, sadly however the bulk of organisations in EVE will take far far longer to adjust. Everyone will adjust, over time, the question is how much time and at what costs, costs both of established investments, the competition races applicable, the various elements of warfare, etc. It's almost self reinforcing. While counterproductive. I know for many folks it will be a matter of "omgtitansmoremoremore" but that isn't even the hot topic element here. When push comes to shove, it is another push towards making EVE an amalgam of work and less play in 0.0. It is doable, ofcourse. But what CCP fails to realise is that it takes away the balance for competition between large and small, young and old alliances and organisations with each new change CCP makes. Combined with how this is being introduced, under the shadow of sorry folks no faction warfare" and in relation to previous content introductions, I'm sorry, but what were folks thinking. Never mind the renewed gap between organisations old & new, young and old on a structural level. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Rafein	Posted - 2007.08.12 16:11:00 - [158] Originally by: Virtuozzo It's not the compression nerf. It's the methodology, the approach, the ignoring of consequences, the perception of absence of care. In a nutshell. I agree with you, on that much, but it goes back a a few years. CCP should have fixed this when the first jumpdrive ships made this possible. That they let it sit fo so long, and now get around, it kinda reminds me of the old addage from Asheron's Call, exploit early, exploit often However, I've played the game for a long time, started before we even had Capital ships. And you know what, people still lived in 0.0. It was different, Industry was more of a key, while now, it has almost been forgotten. However, I do not think it is an issue of more work, less play, unless your trying to live in 0.0 solo. Look around in Empire, even in some 0.0 alliances, plenty of people enjoy mining instead of PvP. Why not recruit some of these corps, have them do the parts you find boring. And if some of them catch the Pvp bug, your better off for it it the long run anyway.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 16:45:00 - [159] Originally by: Rafein Originally by: Virtuozzo It's not the compression nerf. It's the methodology, the approach, the ignoring of consequences, the perception of absence of care. In a nutshell. I agree with you, on that much, but it goes back a a few years. CCP should have fixed this when the first jumpdrive ships made this possible. That they let it sit fo so long, and now get around, it kinda reminds me of the old addage from Asheron's Call, exploit early, exploit often However, I've played the game for a long time, started before we even had Capital ships. And you know what, people still lived in 0.0. It was different, Industry was more of a key, while now, it has almost been forgotten. However, I do not think it is an issue of more work, less play, unless your trying to live in 0.0 solo. Look around in Empire, even in some 0.0 alliances, plenty of people enjoy mining instead of PvP. Why not recruit some of these corps, have them do the parts you find boring. And if some of them catch the Pvp bug, your better off for it it the long run anyway. Once upon a long long time ago, we didn't even have stations. Just container parks in space :P The moment CCP decides folks have built too many stations we'll suddenly be able to destroy them and we'll all go back to our roots. In those days industry was more of a root, but, there was not much else besides the industry or the pvp. These days EVE is much more divers, complex, and pretty much one big ISK machine to support people's favorite tendencies within team based environments. But it has become a game where folks plan for years. Commercial aspirations cannot take away the foundation for how the game is perceived and ventured upon by subscribers. I know CCP has a nack for large tiered organisations within EVE. Trouble is they do not work well for the more human value related interactions. It is also quite in contrast to human nature, sure people follow people, but especially in virtual environments people are generally much more keen on not being a number. More importantly, they can be more then a number, without the moral restrictions of real life. It's again a perception element I'm afraid. One which is starting to become incompatible with the trends in 0.0 warfare and more importantly the speed of warfare, and even moe importantly the divide between those well established, and those trying to compete, impede, or trying to carve out a niche for themselves. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:40:00 - [160] i totally agree on closing a few loopholes with compression that said, CCP are you out of your minds?! the current top30 (rounded): Jump Portal Generator I - 430:1 Gjallarhorn - 232:1 Judgement - 215:1 Aurora Ominae - 213:1 Oblivion - 178:1 Armor Explosive Hardener I - 140:1 Small Tractor Beam I - 137:1 Armor Kinetic Hardener I - 124:1 Armor Thermic Hardener I - 100:1 Cynosural Field Generator I - 87:1 Armor EM Hardener I - 83:1 100MN MicroWarpdrive I - 77:1 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I - 70:1 425mm Railgun I - 70:1 Tachyon Beam Laser I - 70:1 Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I - 66:1 Interdiction Sphere Launcher I - 66:1 1200mm Artillery Cannon I - 57:1 Mega Beam Laser I - 57:1 Neutron Blaster Cannon I - 57:1 100MN Afterburner I - 54:1 Clone Vat Bay I - 50:1 Drone Navigation Computer I - 50:1 350mm Railgun I - 47:1 Capital Shield Booster I - 46:1 Shield Boost Amplifier I - 44:1 Dual Giga Beam Laser I - 43:1 800mm Repeating Artillery I - 43:1 Ion Blaster Cannon I - 43:1 and just for the heck of it: Passive Targeter I - 25:1 the jump portal is just a scarecrow, really... - increase armor hardeners to 10m¦ (or maybe even 20m¦ if that trit/pyer combo is still too attractive) - increase capital mods to 3000m¦ if you still want them to fit into a gsc, otherwise i'd be ok with 5k m3 aswell - jump portal up to 10k m¦. - adjust MWD/AB sizes so they're in line with other small/medium/large modules (same with remote rep/transfer stuff) - large guns could be 50m¦ there, we're down to somewhere around 40:1. sounds a lot less scary than the omgwtfbbq 430:1 example. from here on, let the people decide if they prefer 20:1 "easy" ore compression in that new capital or 40:1 mineral compression. the top50 brings us to ~30:1, almost all of them covered with these suggestions already - putting the gist back into logistics

Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:11:00 - [161] Originally by: Roemy Schneider - large guns could be 50m¦ Are you nutz? Think about the consequences for 0.0 ratting ! ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:18:00 - [162] The total lack of response and interest from CCP is great. I love getting stonewalled when it comes to massive sweeping game mechanic changes, kind of like I was with a bunch of other people in the GSC thread. Give us some kind of response CCP, so we at least know you've read the comments.
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:31:00 - [163] How about not jumping to conclusions. Oh, that doesn't apply here... Quote: ...however reprocessing the affected items will yield 80% of the materials required... If it is just the affected items that are going to be a 80% refine, then that doesn't seem to be a Scrap Metal Processing nerf to me. About all the other complaints of having to change your ways and, (Gasp) having to mine low end ore's in null space... Having an empire in 0.0 isn't all about PVP. You are going to need (Gasp) Carebears for an industry infrastructure. I have an idea, maybe use this new Ore Capital I heard them mention once. It might address some of your concerns with moving ore to and from 0.0. As in life, this game is all about adjusting to change. It could get very boring with out it.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:35:00 - [164] Thank you all for the constructive feedback and discussion so far. Many of you have raised some valid points and concerns and I hope I can give some of our viewpoints to help clarify the reasons behind the change and continue on as we consider the feedback in our development process with yourselves. Such changes do alter significantly the modus operandi of many of your current logistical operations and in many cases makes this at least in the short term, more difficult as unsettling as change is. Whilst mineral compression has been around since the beginning, Eve has undergone a rapid evolution in 'logistical cost' which changed first with the arrival of freighters in Cold War, this lead to logistical ops changing rapidly from solo or convoy runs of a few haulers with high risk operated on an individual corp basis to 10-20 freighters escorted by typically 30-40 pilots. Then as quickly as friday night low-sec freighter ops came (ones which were organized with excellent military discipline in my experience!), they disappeared to be replaced by carriers in Red Moon Rising which only needed a fraction of the original manpower to operate and with much more impunity and safety to become the workhorse of any low sec corp today. Only since the last year, we recently seen an exponential growth in 'mineral compression' to cater for the lack of capacity in carriers and reduce logistical cost to its lowest possible point which is a natural goal of any industrial operation to aim for. Leaving the history lesson behind, to answer the most debated point of does mineral compression need fixing? Well we believe so, it really is a by-product of individual items not being balanced in respect to their products and in the extreme case of jump portal generators allowing crazy amounts of minerals to be transported with ease really negating even the remote possibility of the more intended alternatives and mechanics with capacities of different ships. However equally we recognize why this is done and why players have turned to mineral compression to offer the greatest incentive and ease for low sec operations and carrier transport. Mining in low sec, particularly for tritanium and pyerite is never done besides what is dropped from hauler spawns. As much as our desire is to fix mineral compression at the same time as introducing a ship capable of compressing ore for transport by ratios up to 40:1 (at least 240 million tritanium as compressed ore by my sums is possible in one trip using the Rorqual) whose special role is really dampened by the existence of mineral compression where we really wanted to offer an official and more controlled way for transport of ore. We also want to address the foundations of empire building in low sec and look at providing methods to get the tritanium and pyerite in quantities needed by looking at low-sec ore and possibility of boosting the skiff or mackinaw (which are really dwarfed in most aspects by the hulk) to perform a special role when it comes to hovering up veldspar in low sec as one solution. Regarding affected loot, LeMousse will be able to talk to you more about that but there is a long term goal of overhauling many of the loot tables to switch from tech 1 items which we would like to be more in the hands of players to supply to meta items equivalents as their main drop. Since the mentioned items with a 80% reprocess are the tech 1 player built kind, moving many of the modules away from loot drops will mitigate any minor effect this change has and help provide the long term goal of placing more supply and demand in the hands of players.


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:35:00 - [165] With the Drone Regions which have been poorly done by recently having being affected by global issues with exploration and NPC spawn problems, we realize the uniqueness of your situation when it comes to the sheer quantity of minerals you deal with now after the revelations 2.0 changes. For those players who dwell in the regions, you have not been forgotten and at least in the next patch, you will see rogue drone commanders swarming through the belts in such frequency as enjoyed by other regions with more planned additions and changes in the future. The sheer volume of products you have done well to manage and live with is being looked at to see how we can ease those extra issues you are faced with when it comes to asset based income and greater need for cargo space.

Wicke Gallente Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:41:00 - [166] Originally by: Jadal McPieksu Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No) Ive been waiting for someone to ask this question... Im an Economist. And there isnt a chance in hell that I would ever condone a nerf like this. The nerf will change so many modifiers that it is impossible to forecast the total impact the nerf will have on the economy prior to implementing the patch on TQ. I hope CCP takes a much deeper look at the proposed nerf... IMO, there are far too many other kinks in the system that need the attention. Fix the game . Please fix the current problems before you meddle with anything else!! I still can't wrap my head around why the GSC's were removed from ships inside carriers...
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:54:00 - [167] I still don't understand why this needs "fixing"? There's nothing wrong. All this does is add more time and isk sinks to 0.0 industry, for no real balance reasons.
Luaren Avidius	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:55:00 - [168] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Stuff. Honestly it seems like you skimmed over the responses of everyone who is opposed to the mineral compression nerf of T1 modules. CCP, honestly, you really need to change your philosophy regarding "how the game is meant to be played", the way you nerf and patch things says that you have a clear, singular vision of how you want things to be played, but the way players get creative to work around shortcomings says they want something else entirely. Right now this nerf represents a backwards step in the nightmare of logistics for many aspects of the game. Okay, so the JPG is a bit insane in terms of how much it compresses, so why not change the size of the module to something more in line with reasonability? This is something you need to understand: people dont like to grind. If you want 0.0 and low sec to thrive, people need ways to deliver goods such as ships and modules to those places in a reasonable manner and in a reaonably safe way. Carriers are doing just that with compressed minerals. Face it, no one likes moving haulers in giant fleet ops that consume hours of time when theyd rather be doing something both more productive and entertaining. This is supposed to be a game the last time I checked, and games are supposed to be entertaining. By forcing people to treat the game more and more like part time or full time jobs, you make the game less enjoyable for everyone but the ones at the top who dont care about changes like this, because it only makes it harder for people to climb the hill and challenge them. Instead you should be focusing on removing things people hate. People hate hauling massive amounts of minerals. The new ore ship is a good first step. This compression nerf is a giant step backwards. People also hate managing the logistics of giant POS networks, ice mining, isk grinding, waiting for prints to come out of ME research, etc, etc. Why not help ease those logistical time sinks instead of imposing another one on the playerbase by nerfing something that they worked hard by themselves to implement, with no help from you guys. You created the game. The players dictate how it's played. Your willingness to forget this proposed nerf would go a long ways toward restoring faith in you for a lot of players who see CCP as nerf-happy and willing to ignore the views and desires of actual players. Stop punishing the playerbase for getting creative.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 19:59:00 - [169] So you're going to change the Skiff/Mackinaw to specialized Veldspar/Scordite miners? Interesting. You're going to have to keep in mind a couple of things to make it work, though. People in 0.0 do not mine Veldspar because even with the fluctuations in highend mineral prices it is still much more profitable and less of a grind to make money mining Arkanor/Bistot/Crokite in a mining cruiser than it is to make money mining Veldspar/Scordite in a Hulk. You're going to have to make it equivalent in Tritanium sucking for it to even be considered by most miners in the game for people to actually mine Veldspar in 0.0: even with the 20% refinery loss on compressed items, it would STILL be more worth while to do that than mine Veldspar, on pure volume and opportunity costs alone. It just isn't worth it. Five hours of Veldspar Hulk mining will get you the Trit for one tier-2 battleship: 5 hours = about 15-20m ISK. It's simply too much of a grind for anyone to bother. If the Skiff/Mackinaw can suck enough Veld/Scor for it to be as profitable as say, mining highends (like a Hulk does) then mining Veldspar will no longer be a running joke.
Balcura	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:11:00 - [170] Originally by: Montaire I see a lot of people bieng upset about mineral compression getting hurt. Keeping in mind that I am a serious hardcore 0.0 logistics officer, I love these changes. Mineral compression was basicly a completly broken work-around. It got around existing game mechanics in a way that was badly abused. Moving minerals around is not supposed to be easy. Its supposed to take freighters and haulers to do so. Ever see all the trucks running on the roads, or the trains - those are moving things. Logistics is a big deal and frankly right now its too easy. So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. And Motivated Profit said "I can move a titan and half of mins with one carrier" --- This is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. (Although my shares are probably going to get a hit) You shouldnt be able to do those things. Just because you've been able to borderline-exploit a broken mechanic for months doesnt mean that the mechanic shouldnt be fixed. Frankly the ease at which so many mins could be moved with such little risk was somthing I allways felt was wrong with EVE. Supply lines are CRITICAL, one of the most important things a real general has to deal with is getting his troops ammo, food and water. Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. Im VERY glad of these changes, and I think they will make eve a deeper, richer experience. You my friend are sadly mistaken in what it takes to make things run... a general dosn't make hi own ammo, tanks or anything like that. There are planes that can carry 4 tanks anywhere on the planet in less thn a day (like to see anything in eve carry 4 BS... never gona happen) and if you think a BS is like a naval BS then remember the supply ship carry enough to keep a BS stocked for 3 mos as well as the supplies on board or good for 2... Please don't relate eve to any real military action as the things are just not the same.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:11:00 - [171] Edited by: Gnulpie on 12/08/2007 20:12:42 Originally by: CCP Chronotis As much as our desire is to fix mineral compression at the same time as introducing a ship capable of compressing ore for transport by ratios up to 40:1 (at least 240 million tritanium as compressed ore by my sums is possible in one trip using the Rorqual) whose special role is really dampened by the existence of mineral compression where we really wanted to offer an official and more controlled way for transport of ore. Why don't you just introduce mineral compression besides ore compression on this ship?? Why all the stupid nerfing of items which is really unnecessary and an effect and not the cause? Why don't you go to the core of it and adjust everything properly? People NEED mineral compression, no matter what. By nerfing the items to be 20% more expensive you gain nothing except for the items to become more expensive. Do you really believe people will stop using the JPG module only because the minerals become now 20% more expensive? So instead of trying to work around things and changing fundamental things with zillions of changes you cannot overlook why not just make up an easy and simple solution? Introduce mineral compression! Make it possible on the Rorqual and only there if you want and you have solved all the problems with one stroke and you have a simple and elegant system. You can control mineral compression easily there with a few variables instead of nerfing hundreds of items. Couldn't be difficult, to introduce blueprints similar to those of the ore compression, just that they compress minerals this time. Mineral compression on the Rorqual would be a simple, elegant and logical system. And you can easily control it because the only variables are in the compression blueprints. Please think about it!
Ridjeck Thome The Older Gamers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:15:00 - [172] re; invention changes can you please clarify if you intend to icnrease the drop rate of other items vital to invetion (ie; datacores and decrpytors). If not, then you are increasing the damend of these items greatly and all you will achieve is to put the 'price burden' onto these items... have you worked through the effect on the entire invention production chain?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:16:00 - [173] omg, the sky is falling, ahhh! "Where is Sam Kinison when you need him" This game has changed alot since it came out and will change a lot in the future, get used to it. It sounds like they have a good idea of where they want this to go, and this is only a step in that direction. It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:20:00 - [174] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Thank you all for the constructive feedback and discussion so far. Many of you have raised some valid points and concerns and I hope I can give some of our viewpoints to help clarify the reasons behind the change and continue on as we consider the feedback in our development process with yourselves. Please forgive me, but with the timetable at hand, are you sure there even is time to take the feedback and any consequential implementations into consideration for the development process? This is a prime example of how in this EVE a single small change can and will have rather extensive consequences in a multitude of dynamics. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Eve has undergone a rapid evolution in 'logistical cost' which changed first with the arrival of freighters in Cold War, ... they disappeared to be replaced by carriers in Red Moon Rising which only needed a fraction of the original manpower to operate and with much more impunity and safety to become the workhorse of any low sec corp today. I apologise again, but the manpower involved in logistics has not gone down. In fact it has gone through the roof. Consider how the increase in sovereignty requirements or even in the infamous jumpbridge systems have provided a new and greater logistical challenge, only possible to compensate with more advanced teamwork using more assets, and, more pilots. There are cases of organisations using just a few carrier pilots to do it all, those pilots generally burn out within a month, and many quit. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Only since the last year, we recently seen an exponential growth in 'mineral compression' to cater for the lack of capacity in carriers and reduce logistical cost to its lowest possible point which is a natural goal of any industrial operation to aim for. This is a mistake. Mineral compression has been extensively used in EVE since Castor, before that time even. While the volume of resources involved has increased substantially, this is tied directly to population and thus subscriber levels. There hasn't been a war in EVE I have been part in where a staging base was not set up in or close to deep space using mineral compression to fuel the speed and capacity of the war machine. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Leaving the history lesson behind, to answer the most debated point of does mineral compression need fixing? Looking at the last two paragraphs in which you went into detail, it strikes me that the question really is one of "where does mineral compression need fixing, if at all". There are extreme cases present, and extremism does not go well in EVE, it is a game which revolves around striking an equilibrium after going from one excess to the other. Jump Portal Generator, infamous tool, ok. Slightly over the top. That is not the point here. The focus is you mention low sec, 0.1 to 0.4 space. Not 0.0 space, where if you look at the responses, one can find the most extremely worried cases of discontent, and to a very high degree, despair. If you want to address low sec, people can understand that. But do not come up with something of which the consequences are vastly more dramatic for deep space. You have to envision the consequences and interactions before turning new things loose on the capsuleers. If anything the recently hired economist can tell you that economy is based on trust. As for the drone regions. I am deeply sorry, please do not take this personal, but the people in those regions have had the ***stick for more then 10 months now, going from one deep to the next, with only one case period where they were able to see some hope, and good work, from staff. And now this. This goes beyond a mistake. All folks in the drone regions know there's good stuff coming, we've known that for more then 10 months. The drone regions have no more trust for CCP's words. EVE is about PVP in every aspect, CCP, you win. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip* Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:21:00 - [175] Originally by: Kil'Roy It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Since when was mineral importation and production 'instant gratification'? Do you even know how much effort is involved, even with carriers?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:22:00 - [176] Originally by: Balcura Originally by: Montaire I see a lot of people bieng upset about mineral compression getting hurt. Keeping in mind that I am a serious hardcore 0.0 logistics officer, I love these changes. Mineral compression was basicly a completly broken work-around. It got around existing game mechanics in a way that was badly abused. Moving minerals around is not supposed to be easy. Its supposed to take freighters and haulers to do so. Ever see all the trucks running on the roads, or the trains - those are moving things. Logistics is a big deal and frankly right now its too easy. So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. And Motivated Profit said "I can move a titan and half of mins with one carrier" --- This is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. (Although my shares are probably going to get a hit) You shouldnt be able to do those things. Just because you've been able to borderline-exploit a broken mechanic for months doesnt mean that the mechanic shouldnt be fixed. Frankly the ease at which so many mins could be moved with such little risk was somthing I allways felt was wrong with EVE. Supply lines are CRITICAL, one of the most important things a real general has to deal with is getting his troops ammo, food and water. Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. Im VERY glad of these changes, and I think they will make eve a deeper, richer experience. You my friend are sadly mistaken in what it takes to make things run... a general dosn't make hi own ammo, tanks or anything like that. There are planes that can carry 4 tanks anywhere on the planet in less thn a day (like to see anything in eve carry 4 BS... never gona happen) and if you think a BS is like a naval BS then remember the supply ship carry enough to keep a BS stocked for 3 mos as well as the supplies on board or good for 2... Please don't relate eve to any real military action as the things are just not the same. You sir, are the one who is mistaken. An Alliance in 0.0 isn't an Army waiting to pounce, its a "Nation" that has an Army waiting to pounce. All Alliances should have the whole package, Pvp'ers, Industrialist, Planners, Leaders and Etc. Not Just "Generals"
Komen Gallente Industrial Services INC	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:23:00 - [177] Edited by: Komen on 12/08/2007 20:28:07 Registering my disapproval of the mineral compression 'nerf'. All of my reasons have already been stated above (edit: by other posters). I agree with a suggested fix of either: A) Increase the volume of such modules to reduce their compression, OR (not and): B) Change the minerals used to build these items, increasing amounts of more valuable stuff in place of trit, while keeping mineral ISK cost the same, such that less trit is used (example use 10 units of...let's say isogen in place of 500 trit, or whatever the pricing difference is). ... I hope that one made sense. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:25:00 - [178] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 12/08/2007 20:26:18 Originally by: Kil'Roy You sir, are the one who is mistaken. An Alliance in 0.0 isn't an Army waiting to pounce, its a "Nation" that has an Army waiting to pounce. All Alliances should have the whole package, Pvp'ers, Industrialist, Planners, Leaders and Etc. Not Just "Generals" I take it you've never actually been in a 0.0 alliance and don't know how they function, because every successful alliance that holds and quantity of space already has every single one of the things you listed. If we didn't have industrialists why do you think we'd be 'whining' about Tritanium importation? Use your damn head.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:28:00 - [179] Originally by: Kil'Roy omg, the sky is falling, ahhh! "Where is Sam Kinison when you need him" This game has changed alot since it came out and will change a lot in the future, get used to it. It sounds like they have a good idea of where they want this to go, and this is only a step in that direction. It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Three years ago the whining for instant gratification, and the relationship management on Sisi and Chaos would have been a valid argument. These days it's not. EVE is fortunately not a static game, and it is not an easy game, that is what makes it fun. EVE is one big challenge. But the complexity has reached a level where looking at CCP's reply a low sec perspective is a mouse click away from such a severe impact on deep space routines that it has become clear that arbitrary or single perspective focused actions no longer have consequences for the intended target. Think of it like collateral damage, where the main target hardly feels the impact, or even the need to run or adapt, but the neighbours are left in ruins. So, please bru, try to bring constructive arguments :P The forum has enough rants and whines. You are right about the nature of EVE, and that CCP does have an idea of where this perspective focus is going - but they have failed to examine the consequences for other elements of the game, to such a level where it becomes, well, almost a soap opera. The more complex the game becomes, the more challenges people will face and take to adapt and adjust, to grow and keep moving on, but it goes hand in hand with realising how similar EVE is becoming to an economical and sociological ecosystem, where lack of realisation just like lack of communication can and will have severe impact on many areas .. besides the area targeted for change. EVE is CCP's game. Yet every day tens of thousands of people make it, in game. Sometimes .. there are big differences between these two perspectives which need examining. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Narnak	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:42:00 - [180] Originally by: Arthur Pewty I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. Arthur Pewty Signed

Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:44:00 - [181] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Kil'Roy It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Since when was mineral importation and production 'instant gratification'? Do you even know how much effort is involved, even with carriers? Yes, I do... People complain how much Blob Warefare is bad, yet want to be able to replace their losses quickly to get back into that Blob. People complain how insurance pays too much, but complain how it is too hard to get the materials to replace their ships. If it is too easy to replace your losses, then Blob warefare is all you will have. The harder it is to replace your losses the less likely you would be willing to risk your ship, and the more the well balanced Alliances will have the advantage. The way to make it so not everyone is flying either a BS, Dread, or Carrier is to keep it hard to replace them. Make it so the hardest thing is to keep flying a BS, not training for it. Team work and diversification should be key. Don't only have Pvp'ers, or Carebears, have the proper mix in your Alliance. The future of this game shouldn't be about the next hard thing to train for, but are you organized well enough to keep flying the best. The well organized Nation "Alliance" should have the advantage. I think CCP is on the right path with this, but may take some time to balance it out.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:44:00 - [182] Originally by: CCP Chronotis With the Drone Regions which have been poorly done by recently having being affected by global issues with exploration and NPC spawn problems, we realize the uniqueness of your situation when it comes to the sheer quantity of minerals you deal with now after the revelations 2.0 changes. For those players who dwell in the regions, you have not been forgotten and at least in the next patch, you will see rogue drone commanders swarming through the belts in such frequency as enjoyed by other regions with more planned additions and changes in the future. The sheer volume of products you have done well to manage and live with is being looked at to see how we can ease those extra issues you are faced with when it comes to asset based income and greater need for cargo space. At the risk of it sounding like a whine, but it's easily verifiable in game, the drone regions have lost a variety of races of competition, simply by trying through ultimate effort and making EVE incredibly close to a job to even get by on the most basic elements of 0.0 life. It's gone from precedent to a unique case in EVE's history, and a very worrying precedent for EVE's future. Cheers for hearing we have done great things. Fact is though, we're gimped to the bone, and words do not change this. These changes, as intended for low sec as they are, well I've already made clear the consequences for deep space are far deeper then the projected potential success of these changes for low sec. An honest question, if I may. How heavily is this tied to CCP's prospect of populating low sec by any means necessary. It's not like it's worth it for the miner perspective on an organisational level. I had a stroll into some newbie channels and asked why they weren't mining in low sec. I should not have asked that question to be honest. The gist of the answers comes down to "mining in low sec with a several minute long mining cycle while every single minute someone who thinks he does pvp but only manages to score ganks on barges comes along? no thanks". I then made the mistake of telling them the ORE Capital ship can tank that ganker and etc. The gist of the responses came down to "where have you been, gankers fly motherships now man". I am for change. EVE is great like that, it's like real life, things constantly change. But EVE is a voluntary life, where the complexity is not like in real life subject to an ultimate penalty mechanism. It is a game, for entertainment, and sometimes, no matter how much someone may want things to be, people use it for something else. No reason to wreak havoc on entire organisations and economies. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:46:00 - [183] Originally by: Kil'Roy I think CCP is on the right path with this, but may take some time to balance it out. Sure, but one thing has become clear now .. with these complexities EVE has become like an economy in real life. Excesses without signals of change cost trust. It's all pixels, but hey, a similar perspective change meant the end of SWG. Folks here love EVE. That's it, in a nutshell. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:48:00 - [184] Originally by: CCP Chronitis moving many of the modules away from loot drops will mitigate any minor effect this change has major misconception there. named mods are total chaos when it comes to the minerals "inside" them - there is a very few ones that are in line with t1 but most of them simply suck and will reduce (null-sec) loot value even more - more than these 80% - and the effect is cumulative, i.e. on top of these 80%. this is just a plain "mineral sink" you try to implement. the problem is module size (in m¦) so just change those groups and done. as soon as ore compression comes close (including job queueing/holding/whatever), people will switch - no worries. mineral market will become meaningless, ore market will take over, but one can adept to that. with minerals being of secondary interest that way, the mineral compression will become obsolete (if nerfed as outlined a few posts before) - putting the gist back into logistics
Keri Brooks Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:52:00 - [185] Signed. Mineral compression is now taboo? Sometimes I feel that this game is more of a economic experiment for what will happen in real-life than it is a game. So where are the forms to get CCP to buy back my DDD bpos? Everything else has been said. Goodday
Eton Favre Instagate Corp Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:56:00 - [186] I have several problems with this Huge Nerf... most have already been mentioned. Mineral compress is not a gold mine for isk making. (as implied in your dev blog it requires a bunch of highly researched bpos a considerable time sink. the logistics of getting a hold of those minerals are dificult to say the least. I have done mineral compression a good bit. 1 character with 10 slots made me about 50 mil a week and required a good bit of work in hauling the minerals and a considerable amount of isk tied up in minerals. Training a char to reprocess all those minerals takes a good bit of time so I think that 50 mil was well earned. All of the people (note I don't own any of them)who bought jump portal generators and other high compression expensive bpos should be reimbursed in some way. as you have said mineral compression has been around since the game started. I know a lot of corps that have spent considerable isk amounts to develop a compression library to make the logistics easier. so these people should be compensated as there will be no use for them now. I think the ORE capital was brought in to give a present to the carebears and then when we addressed the issues we had with it, you go and try and create a role for it. The new lab is going to make existing lab useless. I liked the idea of seeding the bpos for the new mobile labs. I have 20 labs (1.8 Bil isk ) that are going to be worthless after this patch. I think 6 copy slots is going to flood the bpc market but so be it. CCP Chronotis when you first started responding to industry threads all the carebears were cheering. Finally a dev that realizes that there are issues with the industry side of the game and seemed to care about them. Now I think they (the pvp devs) have converted you to an all carebears suck thinking dev. Industry characters train for a long time to be able to do the things they enjoy. I am just utterly disappointed in this whole patch and the attitudes the devs have. You have hundreds of people in this thread saying WTF nerf mineral compression are you smoking something!! Yes some thing be done probably, but this is not the way. Are jump portals over powered? yes but there are ways to resolve this with out just taking the huge nerf stick to them. I truely hope this never makes it to TQ in its current form it has too much impact across the board. -- Covetor BPCs Invention Special!!!
Liv Dawn PPN United Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.12 20:56:00 - [187] I still do not see an answer why you are planning to hit T1 production and related industries so hard? Everyone building T1 now has to be very cautious since it is not possible to get your minerals you invested back. heck, you ve got implants and skills to reduce waste from building down from 25% to 0% you ve got to do research to avoid a loss of 10% waste on the blueprint. again with money and time you can reduce that to a very small amount. now you are putting a default 20% waste on some various items because you want to get rid of mineral compression. this will lead to more prices below mineral values because of the many people who do not know how to use a calculator. this will waste lots of peoples day when they try to get out of some markets and cash their items in. you are taxing some items, and some not not regarding their abilities but because a mistake in their volume. finally you burn many many minerals as soon as this patch goes live. total ammount of minerals goes down -> balance of minerals and iskies goes wrong again a bit and you ll get inflation because of more supply in money. i agree that its to easy to get minerals home to build your supercapitals but this change is really one in the wrong direction and ruining many industrialist careers banning them in the belts again. not to speak of many alliances who will just pay the tax or use advanced logistics to haul it with jump bridges/ titans. this way you implemented a serious minreal sink which was never there before in this scale! shakes head serious mistake, sorry
Takashi Rey	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:24:00 - [188] This clearly is CCP attempting to parody... um... CCP. Let's generalize this, shall we? Originally by: fictitious CCP dev Hi, this is CCP <insertnamehere>, We've decided that <insertaspectofgamehere> is imbalanced. To correct this we intend to <insertnerfdescriptionhere>. We fully realize that there is no justifiable in-game reason for the dramatic inconsistency that the changes represent, but we could not think of anything else to do to address what we perceive as a problem. We have not actually considered how this will take the investments you've made in both skills, training time, items and planning and make them virtually worthless, but hey, who cares about that. While we could have address important issues such as <insertgenuineproblemhere> we've chosen to "fix" this "issue" instead. Thanks for your subscription fee, CCP <insertnamehere> Please fill in as appropriate and post in a dev blog.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:44:00 - [189] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 12/08/2007 21:44:45 Originally by: Kil'Roy Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Kil'Roy It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Since when was mineral importation and production 'instant gratification'? Do you even know how much effort is involved, even with carriers? Yes, I do... People complain how much Blob Warefare is bad, yet want to be able to replace their losses quickly to get back into that Blob. People complain how insurance pays too much, but complain how it is too hard to get the materials to replace their ships. If it is too easy to replace your losses, then Blob warefare is all you will have. The harder it is to replace your losses the less likely you would be willing to risk your ship, and the more the well balanced Alliances will have the advantage. The way to make it so not everyone is flying either a BS, Dread, or Carrier is to keep it hard to replace them. Make it so the hardest thing is to keep flying a BS, not training for it. Team work and diversification should be key. Don't only have Pvp'ers, or Carebears, have the proper mix in your Alliance. The future of this game shouldn't be about the next hard thing to train for, but are you organized well enough to keep flying the best. The well organized Nation "Alliance" should have the advantage. I think CCP is on the right path with this, but may take some time to balance it out. Yes lets destroy 0.0 economies because people totally wont start importing at-cost ships and modules from empire en-masse to compensate if there isn't a way to import Tritanium into 0.0. Hey I have an idea! Lets remove all combat ships all together! Surely this will stop "blob warfare" because then nobody will be able to fight! God forbid an alliance bring people who want to fight into a warzone, as it goes directly against the spirit of the game. We should add CONCORD to 0.0 IMHO TBQH (Shut up)
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:52:00 - [190] So from what I can glean from the dev response, CCP is breaking this with only the vaguest idea of how to fix/replace it. This is still an absolutely terrible idea that the response did nothing to address. If 95% of your playerbase hates a change then maybe you should reconsider rolling it out. I really don't understand why CCP force players into the ridiculous timesinks that will result from this patch. EVE is a wide-open game with plenty to occupy everyone's attention, the added pains we'll suffer from this only make the game less fun.

Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 22:13:00 - [191] Originally by: Snowden Vel So from what I can glean from the dev response, CCP is breaking this with only the vaguest idea of how to fix/replace it. This is still an absolutely terrible idea that the response did nothing to address. If 95% of your playerbase hates a change then maybe you should reconsider rolling it out. I really don't understand why CCP force players into the ridiculous timesinks that will result from this patch. EVE is a wide-open game with plenty to occupy everyone's attention, the added pains we'll suffer from this only make the game less fun. Maybe 95% of the members of certain Alliances hate this idea, but I think you are highly overstating how most feel. Those who built up their Alliance's Industry heavily based upon this "Hidden Feature" could have something to worry about, but as many have already stated, there are many ways to adapt to this change, so the ones who actually have an industry base, will be able to adapt. Those who's industry is nothing more than a "House of Cards" will have a problem. Adapt, overcome, persevere and you will succeed in all things.
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.12 22:52:00 - [192] What an awful change, I can't believe anyone thinks this is in any way a good idea. (and looking at the replies, clearly no-one does) A-WAR might be Recruiting!
kasalupin	Posted - 2007.08.12 22:54:00 - [193] Dear Devs, You are stating that the new ore capital ship will be able to haul 240M of compressed trit,so far so good. Now compare it to the current situation: a carrier can haul about 500M of trit with small tractor beam level of compression with two majors advantages compared to the ore ship: its tank better (better attack too) while the ore ship is pretty much a free lunch for any pvp gang and it jump further which is quite imporant especially in interregion jump range capability. Even afer losing 20% mineral it might still make a safer proposition for moving minerals than the ore ship since the risk in fueling the supply line lay in how long and how vulnerable you look when you are outside stations. I know that carrier are not supposed to be logistic powerhouse but any decent sized fleet is better off having most of its energy in the fighting bit and as little as possible on the logistic bit. Also, atm we have very little info on how the ore capital compression is going to ocur.... I would not engage a capital ship exposed just to compress minerals. I would just pass the cost of compression to my customers. I may add those suggestions to make some changes: - make haulers spawn release roids and not refined minerals. That could be an incentive to jump the ore cap and compress roids and jump back in station. - As stated by previous posters: change the ship equipment size to reduce the compression attractiveness - Alternatively, reduce the low end requirement and increase the high end requirement of such components -Best of all do not artificially cap the refine rate but make such good compression items have a lower refining efficiency. Currently, there isvery little incentive to train scrapmetal skill byond one unless you are unlucky to have only poor refine station. With lower reprocess level it would encourage specialised refiners to train scrapmetal skill to level 4 and beyond to recover thoses extra 20% refine. cheers
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:07:00 - [194] Originally by: Kil'Roy Maybe 95% of the members of certain Alliances hate this idea, but I think you are highly overstating how most feel. Those who built up their Alliance's Industry heavily based upon this "Hidden Feature" could have something to worry about, but as many have already stated, there are many ways to adapt to this change, so the ones who actually have an industry base, will be able to adapt. Those who's industry is nothing more than a "House of Cards" will have a problem. Adapt, overcome, persevere and you will succeed in all things. You're a 1-man empire alt corp. Don't start ranting about large-scale 0.0 logistics if you aren't even involved in the process. You can scream "adapt" at us all you'd like but if there isn't any reasonable way to adapt you just make yourself look like an idiot.
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:10:00 - [195] Edited by: Snowden Vel on 12/08/2007 23:11:19 Originally by: Kil'Roy Originally by: Snowden Vel So from what I can glean from the dev response, CCP is breaking this with only the vaguest idea of how to fix/replace it. This is still an absolutely terrible idea that the response did nothing to address. If 95% of your playerbase hates a change then maybe you should reconsider rolling it out. I really don't understand why CCP force players into the ridiculous timesinks that will result from this patch. EVE is a wide-open game with plenty to occupy everyone's attention, the added pains we'll suffer from this only make the game less fun. Maybe 95% of the members of certain Alliances hate this idea, but I think you are highly overstating how most feel. Those who built up their Alliance's Industry heavily based upon this "Hidden Feature" could have something to worry about, but as many have already stated, there are many ways to adapt to this change, so the ones who actually have an industry base, will be able to adapt. Those who's industry is nothing more than a "House of Cards" will have a problem. Having players dumb or masochistic enough to mine veldspar in 0.0 doesn't make you an industrial powerhouse, it just makes you incredibly inefficient and nothing about this nerf changes that, because even with a 20% reduction it will still be more profitable to mine highends and import the lows while eating the 20% loss. It's just going to cost people billions and screw ratters.
DeathRay Dave	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:14:00 - [196] OMG no. PLEASE sort this out before it hits TQ, and at the very least provide an alternative solution. Your new ORE capital is no solution at all to the vast majority of us. Ok, so JPGs are an unintended solution, but a solution none the less, and the new cap really isnt an alternative.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:18:00 - [197] So if you want to import trit to 0.0 you will basically NEED to rely on macro miners in empire since the only reasonable way of doing it will be the rorqual?
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:23:00 - [198] Originally by: Fun Bunny So if you want to import trit to 0.0 you will basically NEED to rely on macro miners in empire since the only reasonable way of doing it will be the rorqual? Yep. The only people who profit from this change are macro miners. Everyone else just gets hit by massive, unnecessary time and isk sinks. Way to go Chronotis .
bliskner	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:29:00 - [199] what happens next? do we all get ore capital ships to compress our minerals/ore now in empire? /me thinks about "macro ers" just staying at a 0.4 pos sitting in there ore ships and compressing minerals/ore all the day think about those ones who have been building these mineral compression items i.e. jump bridge generators and from today till tomorrow just billions of isk in compressed minerals getting up in smoke? at least those players need to get there isk/minerals back again they have been investing in this "projects" i.e. currently running industry jobs as well as the bpo's they just bought you can't cut off the biggest industrial part of this game just cause you guys wanna seed a new capital ship and you think its wrong to "play the game", like it has been played before sry for those hard words and thx for reading
Fatsam Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:37:00 - [200] The blog states there are 170 items with greater compression of 5:1. So I take it this means non-capital items like tractor beams and passive targeters are going to get hit with this tax too? Seems like a very bad idea and just adds more boredom into 0.0 logistics. Unless the new ORE ship can carry a vast amount of this stuff I guess?

Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:52:00 - [201] Honestly, building a device with the specific purpose of bypassing certain game mechanics regarding transporting of bulk materials from one location to another sounds very much like an exploit to me. I don't think anyone who is upset that they wasted a lot of ISK ramping up for this has a leg to stand on. They were exploiting the mechanics of the game to gain an advantage they wouldn't normally have. I can't help from imagining what would be going on if the "Shoe was on the other foot" for some Alliances here.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 23:56:00 - [202] Edited by: Elmicker on 12/08/2007 23:59:45 Originally by: Kil'Roy I can't help from imagining what would be going on if the "Shoe was on the other foot" for some Alliances here. what the skull**** are you talking about you cretinous creature? Every single alliance in existence does this - every bit of 0.0 industry relies on the mineral compression concept. This nerf doesn't even accomplish anything. just like the Carrier/GSC nerf, mineral compression from empire, jumped in carriers, will STILL be the method of choice for moving of bulk low-ends into 0.0. All that'll happen is you'll have to spend more isk and time to do it. And guess where that isk goes? straight into macrominers' pockets.
Inflexible InNova Tech Inc	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:06:00 - [203] Originally by: Elmicker And guess where that isk goes? straight into macrominers' pockets. How?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:06:00 - [204] Originally by: Elmicker Edited by: Elmicker on 12/08/2007 23:59:45 Originally by: Kil'Roy I can't help from imagining what would be going on if the "Shoe was on the other foot" for some Alliances here. what the skull**** are you talking about you cretinous creature? Every single alliance in existence does this - every bit of 0.0 industry relies on the mineral compression concept. This nerf doesn't even accomplish anything. just like the Carrier/GSC nerf, mineral compression from empire, jumped in carriers, will STILL be the method of choice for moving of bulk low-ends into 0.0. All that'll happen is you'll have to spend more isk and time to do it. And guess where that isk goes? straight into macrominers' pockets. It doesn't take much to see certain Alliances are far more vocal about this than others either. Insults don't help, we all have opinions.
bliskner	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:12:00 - [205] Originally by: Kil'Roy Honestly, building a device with the specific purpose of bypassing certain game mechanics regarding transporting of bulk materials from one location to another sounds very much like an exploit to me. I don't think anyone who is upset that they wasted a lot of ISK ramping up for this has a leg to stand on. They were exploiting the mechanics of the game to gain an advantage they wouldn't normally have. I can't help from imagining what would be going on if the "Shoe was on the other foot" for some Alliances here. guy there is a difference between exploit and game machanics everyone knows that mineral compression works this way and it has been done for a long long while since eve started mineral compression is one of the biggest industry activities in game also someone said before that 0.0 markets sucks allready, 100% aggreed i guess there are just 2 new ways to get tons of low ends to 0.0 space, titans with jump bridges from 0.4 to 0.0 jump bridging freighters or the new ore ship actualy i dont have a problem with using that ore ship for mineral compression, but i have a problem that some players/corps/allainces have been putting in a big amout of isk in these projects i.e. running build jobs, bpo's and so on, they need to get a way to get there money back its like you buy a ship with 8 turret slots cause you can use those brilliant new weapons you just trained with it, and "POP" all turrets get removed and you need to train additional 30days to use another ship to use your new brilliant turrets or even lets say you buy a carrier and wanna fly it out the first time, but then "scotty" says you havent got the skills to fly this one, cause someone just changed the skillneeds for that carrier overnight
Mantalari Altis Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:29:00 - [206] The thing that burns most about this for me is not the mineral compression industrial impact. I started out as an industrial character. I didn't bother to train up scrapmetal processing though until after I was in 0.0. I didn't do it so that I could import loads of trit at minimal loss from empire. I did it so that I could reprocess loads of loot from my ratting and keep myself in ammo and new ships until the cows came home. This nerf basically says, "Screw you ratters. You don't need the minerals you get from reprocessing loot". Then it says, don't live in 0.0 unless you're willing to pay through the nose for low ends... well any more than you probably already do because the demand far outstrips the usual supply. For a little while I ran a battleship construction service in 0.0. It was incredible how cheap the high-end minerals were and correspondingly astounding how expensive the low-end minerals were. When serious trit compression and freighter convoys became commonplace, low-ends were still expensive if you weren't shipping them in yourself, but at least the supply was plentiful enough so that you could keep up with production demand for gear. All this nerf will do is tack on a surcharge for the low-ends to the tune of 20%. Honestly, if I were in the mineral compression business, I'd start ramping up production. It looks like there's about to be a 20% increase in buy order quantities. By the way... Didn't CCP hire an economist? Did he get a chance to have a look at this proposed change? Why is it that the sweeping changes with massive economic impact are the ones that seem to be given the least thought before being given the thumbs up. Anyone remember the sudden change to invention job BPC-run yields? That didn't even get a dev blog mention before tanking multi-billion investments for people. At least that had only been a part of the game for a month or so before being completely borked. This gets an offhand mention in a dev blog, but it's a massive change to something that has been in the game since virtually its inception. Hey, I know lets throw away 1/5 of the low end minerals presently in play in the game. That can't have much economic impact, can it?
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:29:00 - [207] bliskner, Maybe it is wrong to consider it a full blow exploit, but I cannot see how players would expect that they should get their isk back when it was never an officially supported feature. Btw, appently you will still be able to use this same proccess, but it will only be 80% effective now. It could have been worse, they could have removed the ability all together.
Bund GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:32:00 - [208] Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... low-sec freighter ops... low sec corp... low sec operations... Mining in low sec... empire building in low sec... low-sec ore... veldspar in low sec If you don't grasp the difference between "low-sec" and 0.0, frankly you have absolutely no business making any decisions about game mechanics. You are obviously using the term to refer to both 0.1-0.4 and 0.0, based on the context. This is really probably the single most frighteningly game-ignorant comment I have ever seen from CCP. Please find someone who has managed 0.0 logistics and production and talk to them for a few months, before you proceed down this path.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:42:00 - [209] There's a frightening number of goons making sense in this thread - surely that's sign enough to stop the nerf?
Takashi Rey	Posted - 2007.08.13 00:55:00 - [210] Originally by: Kil'Roy It could have been worse, they could have removed the ability all together. They'd have had to remove the ability to reprocess anything. You'd be able to refine ore, that's all. They would not do that... Well, I think they wouldn't, but I'm constantly being amazed by just what they will do, so maybe I should STFU.

Holly Hotdrop	Posted - 2007.08.13 01:15:00 - [211] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Thank you all for the constructive feedback and discussion so far. Many of you have raised some valid points and concerns and I hope I can give some of our viewpoints to help clarify the reasons behind the change and continue on as we consider the feedback in our development process with yourselves. Such changes do alter significantly the modus operandi of many of your current logistical operations and in many cases makes this at least in the short term, more difficult as unsettling as change is. Whilst mineral compression has been around since the beginning, Eve has undergone a rapid evolution in 'logistical cost' which changed first with the arrival of freighters in Cold War, this lead to logistical ops changing rapidly from solo or convoy runs of a few haulers with high risk operated on an individual corp basis to 10-20 freighters escorted by typically 30-40 pilots. Then as quickly as friday night low-sec freighter ops came (ones which were organized with excellent military discipline in my experience!), they disappeared to be replaced by carriers in Red Moon Rising which only needed a fraction of the original manpower to operate and with much more impunity and safety to become the workhorse of any low sec corp today. Only since the last year, we recently seen an exponential growth in 'mineral compression' to cater for the lack of capacity in carriers and reduce logistical cost to its lowest possible point which is a natural goal of any industrial operation to aim for. Leaving the history lesson behind, to answer the most debated point of does mineral compression need fixing? Well we believe so, it really is a by-product of individual items not being balanced in respect to their products and in the extreme case of jump portal generators allowing crazy amounts of minerals to be transported with ease really negating even the remote possibility of the more intended alternatives and mechanics with capacities of different ships. However equally we recognize why this is done and why players have turned to mineral compression to offer the greatest incentive and ease for low sec operations and carrier transport. Mining in low sec, particularly for tritanium and pyerite is never done besides what is dropped from hauler spawns. As much as our desire is to fix mineral compression at the same time as introducing a ship capable of compressing ore for transport by ratios up to 40:1 (at least 240 million tritanium as compressed ore by my sums is possible in one trip using the Rorqual) whose special role is really dampened by the existence of mineral compression where we really wanted to offer an official and more controlled way for transport of ore. We also want to address the foundations of empire building in low sec and look at providing methods to get the tritanium and pyerite in quantities needed by looking at low-sec ore and possibility of boosting the skiff and mackinaw (which are really dwarfed in most aspects by the hulk) to perform a special role when it comes to hovering up veldspar in low sec as one solution. Regarding affected loot, LeMousse will be able to talk to you more about that but there is a long term goal of overhauling many of the loot tables to switch from tech 1 items which we would like to be more in the hands of players to supply to meta items equivalents as their main drop. Since the mentioned items with a 80% reprocess are the tech 1 player built kind, moving many of the modules away from loot drops will mitigate any minor effect this change has and help provide the long term goal of placing more supply and demand in the hands of players. Pretty sure this is either an elaborate troll, or Chronotis should be fired for not knowing anything about this "eve-online" game.
Gabrielle Black	Posted - 2007.08.13 01:25:00 - [212] It seems like this would make the Caldari outpost pretty much pointless except for perhaps copying supercap prints. Although you could easily save the isk and buy a second supercap print instead and effectively double your copy speed. The outpost has a lower invention speed bonus than a standard mobile lab, fewer copy slots than a single large caldari tower could support with advanced mobile labs, leaving ME and PE which are certainly useful, but certainly not worth the (what?) 50 billion it would cost to set it up to get enough bonuses to make it as goon as a POS with a set of standard mobile labs. That leaves the booster slots, which can also be put on a tower. I don't have a caldari outpost, but we've been considering building one, but we're back to them being pointless again. Much better to have an amarr one to build cap ships in, or a minmatar one for refining. Gallente, I don't know about.
Suez Newton GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 01:46:00 - [213] Edited by: Suez Newton on 13/08/2007 01:46:24 So really what CCP is doing is trying to keep new players from playing on an even playing field as the players who have hundreds of millions of isk. This makes it even harder to buy battleships and maybe even will keep people out of 0.0 a place that CCP wants more new people instead of the established members all the time. It makes this game even harder then it is to get into unless they want to spend months making isk in Empire just to afford a battleship. I don't have much money and can barely afford to buy Battleships as is but after this it is going to get worse. Edit-I may be ******** so if it is ignore me. ===================================
Witch Doctor Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.13 02:48:00 - [214] The least you could do is delay the compression nerf until these carebear supercaps make their way into Eve. Nerfing compression right as you release the ships is just sadistic and generates a lot of ill will that you don't need. The vast majority dislike this move, but I think it would be easier to handle if there were time to adjust.
Infodragon Gallente Timetravel Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.13 03:45:00 - [215] Edited by: Infodragon on 13/08/2007 03:49:27 Dear CCP, As a software developer and product manager I'm very surprised at this decision. I'll not go into a debate as to if this is good or bad, but either way is a snap move. It may have been considered in great detail but the time to which your users have to adapt to this change is non-existent. It will take time to build the ORE cap ships, much more time for them to saturate, to skill up, to compress the mins. In this time there is NO option other than to take a 20% hit. A feature that has been heavily used for years, and some have come to rely upon, should be phased out slowly. If I were to propose to any client or boss that something that our users have used for so long and have so much invested in, be removed, but with a "shiny new option" that is the real intention, I'd be fired! Both options must exist for a time to allow people to adapt and effect a smooth transition. This is a very bad project management decision. There are many other bads to this as well but they have been adequately discussed. Please reevaluate this decision. If you are to continue please give 3-4 months for a transition. At the very least you'll provide time for healthy debate and a better understanding of the real impact the new ship will have! -Infodragon
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.13 03:49:00 - [216] Dear CCP, In RL I am a pro whiner... </mocking> Anyway, does this mean that battleships will be less dispensable for the 0.0 alliances? Does it mean that capital ships might take a little more effort to put out? Does it mean that carriers won't be used as glorified haulers all the time?! Woohoo! --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:07:00 - [217] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Anyway, does this mean that battleships will be less dispensable for the 0.0 alliances? No. Quote: Does it mean that capital ships might take a little more effort to put out? No. Quote: Does it mean that carriers won't be used as glorified haulers all the time?! Certainly not. Just add 20% to the cost of everything produced in 0.0.
Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 04:30:00 - [218] The real "exploit" in mineral compression is in the truly extreme cases, such as doomsday devices and jump portal generators. Hauling down enough minerals to build an entire fleet of ships in just a single industrial allows for logistics projection beyond reasonable means is on all accounts not the intended use of game mechanics. As it stands, too much infrastructure is built upon compression of minerals and importation to deep 0.0 (as in forty to sixty jumps or more). I'm okay with nerfing the JPGs and DDs and whatever a bit, but passive targeters and small hull reps have to stay as they are for now unless there are major industrial boosts to make in-house gathering of lowends more feasible, and not just the Rorqual. If you're going to change anything, think about this instead. Take the Small Tractor Beam, for example: * tritanium compression ratio: 100:1 * pyerite compression ratio: 25:1 * mexallon compression ratio: 9:1 * isogen compression ratio: 2.5:1 Here you've got a fantastic tritanium compression at 100:1. Instead of the reprocessing nerf hootenany, why not just shift the needed components away from tritanium and more towards highend minerals like nocxium, zydrine, and megacyte? It costs the exact same to build and consumes the same volume, but the tritanium compression takes a hit, that's all. Same thing can be done with DDs and JPGs, just make it use a few hundred million more zyd and mega and a few hundred million less trit/pyer. Bam, nobody will make DDs and JPGs anymore unless they intend to use those things. Not entirely sure how this could be applied to other capital ship components, though if done universally, it could make highend mineral prices skyrocket to match the new demand (which would be good for me ) Buffing the skiff and/or mackinaw so that they mine lowends better is an interesting idea, though you'd have to boost their mining capabilities to pretty amazing levels to get people to use them. Maybe even two or three times the mining amount a hulk or covetor would get for lowends, otherwise people still won't do it unless they are forced to. And by "forced", I don't mean "the prices of trit gets so high that its worth more than mega/zyd and thus economically speaking its not smart to mine ark/bist/crok anymore". It also makes me wonder how a skiff might get used in empire, where lowends are relatively easily obtained because of macrominers and coupling arrays.
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.13 05:38:00 - [219] Originally by: Virtuozzo It's all pixels, but hey, a similar perspective change meant the end of SWG. Now you guys know why i am so concerned about it, it was a simple change in gameplay introduced almost without no real warning, one day you had it on the Testcenter and where trying to do the best out of it with your fellow gorathians, the next week or two it was on teh real server, it just took 2 more weeks for most to realise, that the game had been changed in a dramatically way and that it didn't make sense anymore to play a once deeply complex game (about 4 times less complex then eve) , that evolved into a 6-year olds playstation arcarde game. And then you saw losses in subscriptions. You check the mmoGchart.com analysis in subscription fluctuation if you want to. My question to Chronotis would be at this point, see that you state the following: Originally by: "CCP Chronotis" [...]As much as our desire is to fix mineral compression at the same time as introducing a ship capable of compressing ore for transport by ratios up to 40:1 (at least 240 million tritanium as compressed ore by my sums is possible in one trip using the Rorqual) whose special role is really dampened by the existence of mineral compression where we really wanted to offer an official and more controlled way for transport of ore.[...] How long does it in your estimation (CCP Chronotis) take to move ore worth 240 mil Trit from a space in empire lets say 10 jumps to a lowsec-system, compresss it with your Rorqual in a safe POS and then move it around in a carrier or even the Rorqual lets say 45ly? Freighters will be used for empire hauling. i did here an example just to safe you time calculating, and i hope i did not miscaculate here: You get 1100 Units trit out of 333 Units dense Veldspar. so 240.000.000 units Tritatium equal 218.182 batches of 333 Veldspar, so you need to ship 72.654.606 Units Veldspar qeual to 7.265.460,6 10 jumps through empire. so you'll be doing around 7 jumps. 10 jumps to get the load, 10 jumps back to your roqual. Now. I dont know how long it actually takes to press these items with the roquarl and how much strontium it takes, but even now, we are talking about 70 jumps with a freighter, in what could have been done in 20 jumps with a freighter and no Pressing with the Rorqual. Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders Accounting and More
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.13 05:44:00 - [220] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Anyway, does this mean that battleships will be less dispensable for the 0.0 alliances? NO Quote: Does it mean that capital ships might take a little more effort to put out? No, as you can build em in lowsec (04-0.1) aswell. Only Super caps will become 20% more expensive. Quote: Does it mean that carriers won't be used as glorified haulers all the time?! I dont see where this hits carriers, but hell, just for the love of it: No it wont :P Woohoo! Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders Accounting and More

Kvarium Ki Legion Du Lys GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 05:51:00 - [221] I think you should introduce a new veldspar type with much higher yield then dense veldspar. It should only spawn in very low security systems, much like Crokite and Bistot. You could do the same for all the ores.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.13 06:30:00 - [222] I repeat myself gladly again so that the idea won't get lost: Introduce mineral compression The same as the Rorqual can compress ore it should be able to compress minerals. Same mechanism, via blueprints. It solves all problems in a very elegant way. Actually I think mineral compression should be possible at high sec stations too but with quite worse compression rate/time so that the Rorqual is only option for pros but the small people have an option too! Don't favour only the big and high end alliances like BoB and RA with their multiple titans!
Brucette	Posted - 2007.08.13 06:36:00 - [223] Originally by: Gnulpie Don't favour only the big and high end alliances like BoB and RA with their multiple titans! Simple solution: No cap ships thorugh jump-bridges. Logistics have been getting far too trivial anyway.
Kal Shakai	Posted - 2007.08.13 06:40:00 - [224] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Only since the last year, we recently seen an exponential growth in 'mineral compression' to cater for the lack of capacity in carriers and reduce logistical cost to its lowest possible point which is a natural goal of any industrial operation to aim for. Leaving the history lesson behind, to answer the most debated point of does mineral compression need fixing? Well we believe so, it really is a by-product of individual items not being balanced in respect to their products and in the extreme case of jump portal generators allowing crazy amounts of minerals to be transported with ease really negating even the remote possibility of the more intended alternatives and mechanics with capacities of different ships. I actually agree with these points. I believe mineral compression and the use of carriers has made it too easy to bypass the trade routes through null sec. However, the proposed fix isn't the answer. It won't stop anyone from compressing minerals and jumping them in. It just means that your compression ratio is going to drop to say 18:1 for trit (passive targeters) and it will cost say 3 isk instead of 2.3 or whatever the math works out to. People will still do this to AVOID THE RISK. This nerf is the result of LAZY developers not doing their job by analyzing the data, properly balancing the modules and then adjusting their drop rates accordingly. CCP needs to figure out how much they want a module to cost, figure out how large they want it to be, make the minerals fit inside the desired 5:1 compression ratio (by using more high ends instead of loads of trit and pyr) and then balance the drops. Instead, they just do a 20% nerf to mineral extraction that doesn't really do anything other than penalize certain types of game play OTHER THAN WHAT THEY ULTIMATELY ARE TRYING TO CORRECT. CCP, take some pride in your game and do the right thing. It may not be easy but we don't pay for you for making a simple game.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.13 07:09:00 - [225] What does the introduction of an ore compression ship have to do with compressing low ends? -Ore compression ship is used to get ore out of .0. -Mineral compression is used to get low end minerals into .0. This change will only make it more annoying to keep the industry going in .0. It won't make it more interesting, it won't make it easier, it just doesn't make sense. If the ore ship could replace the role of using passive targeters and such then you might have case to nerf it (although it would be way better to just make the ore ship better at moving ore/minerals then a freighter currently is). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Fastercart Gallente Ihatalo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.08.13 07:29:00 - [226] Originally by: Apocalytica Insomnia You check the mmoGchart.com analysis in subscription fluctuation if you want to. Off topic, but http://mmogdata.voig.com/ (click the "Subscriptions" link) provides more updated info. MMogchart hasn't been updated since 2006.
Twarda Sztuka	Posted - 2007.08.13 07:53:00 - [227] Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... Only since the last year, we recently seen an exponential growth in 'mineral compression' to cater for the lack of capacity in carriers and reduce logistical cost to its lowest possible point which is a natural goal of any industrial operation to aim for. Right. Keywords would be "lack of capacity in carriers". Also you are right about lowering logistical cost as a goal. Anything more is transfered eventually to the buyer. Industrial corps that don't do it are out of the game. Originally by: CCP Chronotis As much as our desire is to fix mineral compression at the same time as introducing a ship capable of compressing ore for transport by ratios up to 40:1 (at least 240 million tritanium as compressed ore by my sums is possible in one trip using the Rorqual) whose special role is really dampened by the existence of mineral compression where we really wanted to offer an official and more controlled way for transport of ore. Yep. You have just confirmed that nerf is to force players to use your new ship. I expect the BPO for the new ship will be about 1.3 bil and ship itself will cost in minerals another 1.2. This have to added to margin of profit when mining low-end ore . How much money can you make on 240 milion of Trit ? Take into account also small detail like escort for mining in 0.0 space. Add the risk of flying it in 0.0. Add the cost of another player being on standby with cyno generator if things go slightly not ok (like few Battleships coming to the system). All together it is just not viable. You wont make it being used for mining low grade ores. You just intoduce the tax. Originally by: CCP Chronotis We also want to address the foundations of empire building in low sec and look at providing methods to get the tritanium and pyerite in quantities needed by looking at null-sec ore and possibility of boosting the skiff and mackinaw (which are really dwarfed in most aspects by the hulk) to perform a special role when it comes to hovering up veldspar in null sec as one solution. It would have to be HUGE boost to make mining Trit and Pyer mining profitable in 0.0. Sorry, but the moment this change is introduced I can see only two careers for me: mission running in hi sec or tracking and hunting down those big new capitals.
Sigmorhair Gallente Eisenmetal	Posted - 2007.08.13 08:01:00 - [228] Dear valued Eve customers. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you for giving us your hard earned money for years. In return, we would like to show you how much we appreciate is by making your life harder. Please do not be distracted by the sound of us and our BOD friends laughing at you. After all it's for your own good.
mamolian M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 08:41:00 - [229] "The Rorqual's introduction grants us the ability to incorporate older æmetafeaturesÆ into EVE in a balanced and officially supported manner. Currently, there are a number of items whose total volume of required ingredients are many times that of the resulting product. This leads to imbalanced compression rates as high as 430:1, such as the 1,000m3 Jump Portal Generator, a module requiring 430,000m3 of minerals to make. Upon completion, these modules would be transported to a new location and reprocessed with nearly zero waste, thus allowing the transport of a Freighter load of minerals with an Industrial." CCP what the jesus ** are you thinking.. Your player base is admittedly using "metafeatures" to achieve what is required to meet resource demands of heavily combat infested regions of space.. Why are you taking this step.. to make it even more difficult to just make ends meet out here in 0.0.. for the already stressed out Director/CEO staff of the 0.0 alliances.. As it stands now, your probably looking at an actively involved Director staff of somewhere in the region of 500 - 1000 people spread out amongst all the alliances currently in 0.0, between POS spamming, keeping systems locked down, keeping alliances and their members (your customers) busy with goals and entertainment, and now will have to incur a 20% markup on materials compressed and brought up from empire.. Especially when these 500 - 1000 people have little or NO time to make ingame money for themselves, and quite often complain of playing this game feeling like a full time job.. CCP you should be working on realistic ways to make running large corporations, and alliances in this game a reality, instead of snipping our *** fingers, and breaking our toes.. Your taking our tools and our ability to give your customers a home in 0.0.. And as for the Rorqual, preliminary investigation sounds like its about as ***** useful if it had a capital flower holder as a capital tractor beam.. Please.. rethink this 20% refining nerf. -------------------------------
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:04:00 - [230] so... you made the ore capital and now all of eve (ratters, mission runners, plex runners, small producers, large producers, ore macro'ers, ice macro'ers, mineral traders, researchers, refiners, stock markets - null-sec, low-sec, high-sec) is supposed to revolve around it? i don't think so, tim... keep up these monthly global market manipulations and the last bugger will realize how "player-driven" everything really is. /me wonders when sentry/maintenance drones will be banned from carriers so the gigantic drone bay will not be hijacked for pyerite/tritanium transportation anymore (yes, 3.6mil pyer or 3.95mil trit can be transported in a thanatos that way - and they're below the 5:1 hurdle lol) - putting the gist back into logistics

Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:08:00 - [231] I live in the Drone regions and my only income is from drone loot. I very much DISAPROVE of this change, what were you thinking CCP, oh wait you weren't I expect an immediate substitute for transporting high volume minerals into 0.0, or you will be shooting alot of your 0.0 residents in the foot... just think about it for a second... Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
Alcrista Somez Amarr The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:09:00 - [232] Edited by: Alcrista Somez on 13/08/2007 09:10:30 To Paraphrase Chronotis last post... //////////////////// Dear Eve community Thankyou for the last 7 pages of feedback, almost entirely unanimously stating that you think this change is a bad idea. We're going to do it anyway, because irrespective of what you think, we havenÆt managed to inject enough tedium or monotony in to the game recently. We made some bold efforts - which you must applaud us for - with making you go through haulers removing GSC before docking them in carriers. Then we decided to force you to make copious lists of everything you move in your Carriers by not allowing you the use of GSCs in them at all for keeping various stock organised or separate. This should have been enough, but unfortunately you made use of meta-features (screenshots, pens and paper etc) to avoid having to etch this list information in to granite slabs, as we originally intended. So hopefully this move will redress that balance, by making the already tedious, time consuming and headache inducing task of 0.0 logistics even more tedious, time consuming and headache inducing. Thanks again for all your feedback guys - your opinions are really important to us! Now get hauling. Chron
mamolian M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:37:00 - [233] Originally by: Apocalytica Insomnia So it takes 364*300 = 109200seconds or 1820 minutes or 30 hours to compress this load. and uses 36400 Strontium. SO teh pricetag on the 36k Stront would be around 55 mil. Mr Chronotis I'll be demanding your resignation if this is your answer to mineral compression using high end BPO's. -------------------------------
Crazy Yuri	Posted - 2007.08.13 09:44:00 - [234] If mineral compression was a "known issue" it should have been dealt with months ago. I don't like it when people invest time into something based on the current set of game rules, then the rules change. If this was such a problem why wait so long to deal with it? Things change, its part of MMOs. Its they way that things change is what matters. I think this change was handled rather poorly. If you plan to nerf jump bridging next, just do it now. Get all of the logistics changes done and out of the way.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.13 10:05:00 - [235] This is pretty ill thought out, alot of people reprocess loot as a major income stream, not just in 0.0 but in empire.. This will majorly effect the T1 market across the board, not just mineral compression (which IMO due to 0.0 refinery wastage wasn't much of an issue anyway). Can you not just tweak the mineral requirements of some of those modules to be less effecient compressors. ?? I can't really understand how something has been happening for years, and has been pretty much ENDORSED, can all of a sudden change without any real warning. Invention is already on the verge of becoming totally unprofitable, and you want to make it MORE accessible ? Graviton Physics? sure, but the invention skills ? It's ridiculous when you have a skill like Research Project Management that costs 40m, and you plan to introduce a skill that is needed by less players, for 1/4 the amount. No doubt a week later you will up the price to 100m, and all the people with inside knowledge will make ridiculous amounts of isk. There are plenty of old features that need fixing before new bugged ones are introduced. It's a sad state of affairs when the most profitable profession in Eve by far is patch trading.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.13 10:14:00 - [236] Originally by: Brucette Logistics have been getting far too trivial anyway. I don't know what sort of logistics have been getting trivial, but when I spend 10 hours a week moving stuff, I was hoping it would be made more trivial rather than less.... This game is really already a 'move stuff places' simulator for far too many people. It's been years since I've mined, ratted, and pvped... mostly. I move stuff. Stuff to keep POS's running, stuff to keep factories filled then emptied, stuff for people to buy, stuff to refine to get minerals to fill the factories. Already even @ 5-1 mineral compression isn't worth it when you end up wasting 5% + 10% alliance tax etc. It won't change of course, you make it 80% as good, the same stuff ends up happening it just increases costs. Already people are just buying BS's in Jita and travelling them out because it's so much cheaper. This basically destroys regional markets...
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.13 10:15:00 - [237] Good job on the new mobile lab though. I can see alot of people using the existing ones for faster ME research on high value items, and the new ones for more copy slots...
Crocodylus pontifex	Posted - 2007.08.13 10:15:00 - [238] Edited by: Crocodylus pontifex on 13/08/2007 10:20:44 Edited by: Crocodylus pontifex on 13/08/2007 10:16:53 Originally by: Apocalytica Insomnia So it takes 364300 = 109200seconds or 1820 minutes or 30 hours to compress this load. and uses 36400 Strontium. SO teh pricetag on the 36k Stront would be around 55 mil. Jesus. It's like CCP decided to break a feature in order to force us to use their toy in order to fix it. Only it doesn't fix it at all. So in the end the feature will remain broken, no one will use the toy how it's intended and everyone will be ***ed off.
Agent Stone Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:16:00 - [239] What the Hell!?! CCP... Are you insane? What is up with all of this "Lets make Eve Online more like Work" stuff you seem to be pushing? Get some business sence and relise you need to keep your paying customers happy. We are playing a Game! We play Eve Online for Fun! We do not want to play Eve Online as a second Job! This patch is yet another example of how CCP are turning Eve Online into a Job for 0.0 Alliances. Example 1: Why Drone Regions make Eve a Job and not a Game I used to live out there for over 6 months... Since the Drone Regions were opened up, they have not been on par with other 0.0 regions. The are a logistical nightmare. To be fair, logistics is a nightmare in any 0.0 region, but the whole issue of Drone Alloys is in effect a perma nerf for alliances out there. Its not fun living in the Drone Regions... Its alot of hard work. Example 2: How the GSC Nerf makes Eve a job and not a Game I am a Carrier Pilot, and as a result, I have to use my Carrier for logistics now and again, hauling alliance, corporate, and members assets around 0.0 space. This thread with 477 posts sums up what people thought about that patch, and is a good example of how CCP simply ignored everyone, did not make a reply, and locked the thread. Basically, its harder work, and less fun, and takes more time. And now this patch as Example 3... Example 3: How the Mineral Compression Nerf makes Eve a job and not a Game This creates stress, and forces alliances to change the way they manage logistics. Overall, the people this will effect will agree it creates more work for them. Overall making the game less fun. Virtuozzo is correct that in time, people will change, but its the way CCP deploy this without warning, and without offering valid alternatives to 0.0 Logistics. Examples 1 and 2, have created alot of work and stress for me. I have thought of quiting Eve Online a number of times, because it was quite simply not fun to play at times. The only thing that I still enjoy is when I am not doing Logistics for my Alliance, Corporation, and Members. The only reason I keep working in Eve Online, is because of the players I know, and the community of pilots I fly with. To be fair, Eve Online is a great game, and I love playing it. Credit to CCP for making a game that brings people together. Heck, I even met my current housemate over Eve Online. And why else would I continue playing, when I am told by my doctor that its the cause of my Mild Insomnia and Stress at times. This patch is simply another change that will create stress for pilots, and alot of work for allainces until we adapt. All we really needed was warning perhaps? 3 Months before now, a quick blog saying CCP are thinking of Nerfing Mineral Compression, so atleast then Alliances have 3 months to react and adapt and thus, the change does not effect Alliances, Conflicts, and People as much as it would. To be honest, I am beginning to think 0.0 space is over ratted. PvP is Fun, and Making Isk in 0.0 is Fun... But its getting to the point where you have to ask yourself, is it really worth the Logistics Work, and constant OMG CCP hate us, make life as close to work as possible in 0.0 patches (read nerf without enough warning to adapt). I love my alliance, and I love the pilots I fly with, and thats all that keeps me putting up with this crap. CCP, please learn ASAP that your a Company, and its finacially in your intrest to ensure players/customers are happy and enjoying the game. If you keep making work/stress/hassle for plays, people will leave. /me ends rant
Vincent S	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:18:00 - [240] Hahaha, 30 hours of work to compress one full load...That's hilarious. I'd like to know who looked at this and thought "Well this seems like a good idea!".

DarkMatter Sintered Sanity	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:32:00 - [241] I really feel sorry for the people who still care about playing this game... What a kick in the nads... My Infinity Ship Designs: T-Y9, Hauler
1Of9 Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:35:00 - [242] Guys, c'mon .. dont stress out. You know CCP is reading but will do nothing, wont change theyr decision and will keep mocking us. Stop posting, it's useless
Misteriouso PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:51:00 - [243] Originally by: 1Of9 Guys, c'mon .. dont stress out. You know CCP is reading but will do nothing, wont change theyr decision and will keep mocking us. Stop posting, it's useless I have to agree with you on that one Shame tho... i think they will realize what they did once start losing players....
MastaRob	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:53:00 - [244] Sorry I have to reply.... CCP you have shown time and time again a complete lack of sympathy for logistics managers. You obviously have no experience doing this for any meaningful length of time, and have no conception of the ball ache it causes. It turns Eve into a JOB. This is BAD trust me I know. I know you are trying to introduce new features to compensate, but if the new features are good, then there is no need to nerf the old ways as people will change on their own. Why the hell you think this is a good idea, I....I....am at a loss for works. The mind boggles, it really does.
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:53:00 - [245] One of the things EVE has always been geared towards is competition, on any and all levels. EVE is PVP in any and all aspect, the nice thing about EVE is that there has always been a niche in which new players and organisations have been able to compete in with older players and organisations, or opportunity to carve out such a niche. This last year however, the evolution of EVE has become, well, gimped. I fear we are seeing a huge discrepancy between how CCP wants the game AND the in game behaviour and feature use of subscribers to evolve, and the actual practical evolution of the game for all intents and purposes. It is starting to remind me of the penultimate change trends in SWG which in a practical sense came down to the developers pushing through on their theoretical views, on a point to point basis, without regard for in game behavioural trends and the gaps between older and younger in game organisations. Ultimately it was this persistancy of refusal to adapt to subscriber and commercial trends which led to the demise of SWG. This is another unfortunate example of introducing a small change, through a method which could have been much better chosen or adapted, with severe consequences for the balances in EVE, most notably deep space. Not to mention the timing of these changes. As has been said before, there is nothing wrong with change, in fact it is one of the things which keeps EVE going forward. But I get the idea CCP are forgetting or bypassing the complexity of EVE, and its interdependancies of feature usage. This is no longer Castor. The scale and complexity of EVE have made every aspect as critical to organisations as in older times the investment debate in T2 bpo's. These days for deep space war machines, mineral compression is as critical, even more so, for the competition between alliances of any statute. Both on that competition level as well as on an economical level. Failing to address this, and coming down on a singular aspect for the focus of - apparently - low sec without looking at interdependancies for other environments or even the scale of those. Let's face it, for most mineral compression means tying up more ISK and assets then what most younger organisations having going round in T2 print originals. Changes to T2, have been done with great care, and after much debate, and still had repercussions, somewhat compensated by Invention. These changes, have an even greater impact. There may be a divide between how folks at CCP want the game to be, and how it is growing to be. That is normal, after all EVE is a game designed to be pushed, carried and made by its players. Even giving subscribers the impression that a view will be pushed through no matter what without regard for consequences is something which, well let's be honest, hurts the marketing. We've all seen SWG. There are better ways to deal with perceived excesses. And it is really time to do checks and balances on the complexities of EVE. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
mamolian M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:55:00 - [246] Originally by: MastaRob Sorry I have to reply.... CCP you have shown time and time again a complete lack of sympathy for logistics managers. You obviously have no experience doing this for any meaningful length of time, and have no conception of the ball ache it causes. It turns Eve into a JOB. This is BAD trust me I know. I know you are trying to introduce new features to compensate, but if the new features are good, then there is no need to nerf the old ways as people will change on their own. Why the hell you think this is a good idea, I....I....am at a loss for works. The mind boggles, it really does. I know what would help.. Open up Polaris to player lead invasion.. I wanna see Tanis alliance feel the need to POS spam, and be forced to run the logistics from empire using ingame means.. Lets see how long this ***** bull** lasts then -------------------------------
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 11:59:00 - [247] Originally by: mamolian Originally by: MastaRob Sorry I have to reply.... CCP you have shown time and time again a complete lack of sympathy for logistics managers. You obviously have no experience doing this for any meaningful length of time, and have no conception of the ball ache it causes. It turns Eve into a JOB. This is BAD trust me I know. I know you are trying to introduce new features to compensate, but if the new features are good, then there is no need to nerf the old ways as people will change on their own. Why the hell you think this is a good idea, I....I....am at a loss for works. The mind boggles, it really does. I know what would help.. Open up Polaris to player lead invasion.. I wanna see Tanis alliance feel the need to POS spam, and be forced to run the logistics from empire using ingame means.. Lets see how long this ***** bull** lasts then Heh. That is actually a brilliant idea. We should do this. Even if only to vent some steam. Subscribers giving Devs a showcase :-) With the Devs doing all the work to compete and wage war :P Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Shodo Deka M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:01:00 - [248] First, assuming that the previous calculations was correct, I doubt anybody would spend 30+hours of work to get minerals out to 0.0 instead of just taking the 20% hit. So this will properly just end up being a 20% nerf to ship prices in 0.0. Second, I can understand the reason for nerfing the 430:1 compression and the reason for introducing an officially supported version of it. But doing it this way will only make this game less fun for a lot of 0.0 residents, either by making their ships 20% more expensive to replace or by making them work more in game (slave labor kind of work not the fun kind). I know you donÆt do a change to the game with the intent of making it less fun, but for a lot of pilots that will properly be the result of this change. There are already a lot of good suggestions in this thread about how you could do this right, please consider them. /Shodo
Misteriouso PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:02:00 - [249] Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: mamolian Originally by: MastaRob Sorry I have to reply.... CCP you have shown time and time again a complete lack of sympathy for logistics managers. You obviously have no experience doing this for any meaningful length of time, and have no conception of the ball ache it causes. It turns Eve into a JOB. This is BAD trust me I know. I know you are trying to introduce new features to compensate, but if the new features are good, then there is no need to nerf the old ways as people will change on their own. Why the hell you think this is a good idea, I....I....am at a loss for works. The mind boggles, it really does. I know what would help.. Open up Polaris to player lead invasion.. I wanna see Tanis alliance feel the need to POS spam, and be forced to run the logistics from empire using ingame means.. Lets see how long this ***** bull** lasts then Heh. That is actually a brilliant idea. We should do this. Even if only to vent some steam. Subscribers giving Devs a showcase :-) With the Devs doing all the work to compete and wage war :P Errr, i don't think that would work... You will probably get a lot of cluster shuting down etc then
mamolian M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:05:00 - [250] Originally by: Misteriouso Originally by: Virtuozzo Originally by: mamolian Originally by: MastaRob Sorry I have to reply.... CCP you have shown time and time again a complete lack of sympathy for logistics managers. You obviously have no experience doing this for any meaningful length of time, and have no conception of the ball ache it causes. It turns Eve into a JOB. This is BAD trust me I know. I know you are trying to introduce new features to compensate, but if the new features are good, then there is no need to nerf the old ways as people will change on their own. Why the hell you think this is a good idea, I....I....am at a loss for works. The mind boggles, it really does. I know what would help.. Open up Polaris to player lead invasion.. I wanna see Tanis alliance feel the need to POS spam, and be forced to run the logistics from empire using ingame means.. Lets see how long this ***** bull** lasts then Heh. That is actually a brilliant idea. We should do this. Even if only to vent some steam. Subscribers giving Devs a showcase :-) With the Devs doing all the work to compete and wage war :P Errr, i don't think that would work... You will probably get a lot of cluster shuting down etc then Save me leet hax! -------------------------------

Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:09:00 - [251] Ofcourse it would work. After a few node crashes and a bunch of jump bridge sieges we'd leave the Devs without ISK, zero logistics and in defeat, but it would work :P Armageddon sentiments here :P Anyone else up for it? It would be the perfect testcase. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:15:00 - [252] Surely, if you wanted to nerf the ore-compression industry that exists outside of the ORE ship, you would: a) Boost the new ship somehow, so that it is more economical to use that. Rather than nerfing everything else. b) Change volumes of items so that they match the volume of the materials used? Eg. increase the volume of a jump portal generator by 430 times its current volume. c) Introduce a blanket 80% policy on all module refines. Now, as a mission runner you can rule out (c) completely. I often melt down unnamed modules that I pickup during missions, and put those minerals into ships, modules, and ammo. 90-95% fone, I can live with that, but 80% is a smack in the face for loot refiners. (b), sure it would make logistics of constructing capital ship more difficult; but considering that super-alliances are chucking out super-capitals like sweets at the moment, is that a bad thing? Which leaves us only with (a). Personally I don't see why the new ORE ship needs factory slots and BPCs at all. Why not simply allow the Industrial Core to take uncompressed ore as ammo, and dump out a compressed version at the end of its cycle? It would certainly increase uptake of the ship, as people would not have to jump through hoops in order to get the module to work. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:26:00 - [253] Originally by: Agent Stone What the Hell!?! CCP... Are you insane? What is up with all of this "Lets make Eve Online more like Work" stuff you seem to be pushing? Get some business sence and relise you need to keep your paying customers happy. We are playing a Game! We play Eve Online for Fun! We do not want to play Eve Online as a second Job! This patch is yet another example of how CCP are turning Eve Online into a Job for 0.0 Alliances. Example 1: Why Drone Regions make Eve a Job and not a Game I used to live out there for over 6 months... Since the Drone Regions were opened up, they have not been on par with other 0.0 regions. The are a logistical nightmare. To be fair, logistics is a nightmare in any 0.0 region, but the whole issue of Drone Alloys is in effect a perma nerf for alliances out there. Its not fun living in the Drone Regions... Its alot of hard work. Example 2: How the GSC Nerf makes Eve a job and not a Game I am a Carrier Pilot, and as a result, I have to use my Carrier for logistics now and again, hauling alliance, corporate, and members assets around 0.0 space. This thread with 477 posts sums up what people thought about that patch, and is a good example of how CCP simply ignored everyone, did not make a reply, and locked the thread. Basically, its harder work, and less fun, and takes more time. And now this patch as Example 3... Example 3: How the Mineral Compression Nerf makes Eve a job and not a Game This creates stress, and forces alliances to change the way they manage logistics. Overall, the people this will effect will agree it creates more work for them. Overall making the game less fun. Virtuozzo is correct that in time, people will change, but its the way CCP deploy this without warning, and without offering valid alternatives to 0.0 Logistics. Examples 1 and 2, have created alot of work and stress for me. I have thought of quiting Eve Online a number of times, because it was quite simply not fun to play at times. The only thing that I still enjoy is when I am not doing Logistics for my Alliance, Corporation, and Members. The only reason I keep working in Eve Online, is because of the players I know, and the community of pilots I fly with. To be fair, Eve Online is a great game, and I love playing it. Credit to CCP for making a game that brings people together. Heck, I even met my current housemate over Eve Online. And why else would I continue playing, when I am told by my doctor that its the cause of my Mild Insomnia and Stress at times. This patch is simply another change that will create stress for pilots, and alot of work for allainces until we adapt. All we really needed was warning perhaps? 3 Months before now, a quick blog saying CCP are thinking of Nerfing Mineral Compression, so atleast then Alliances have 3 months to react and adapt and thus, the change does not effect Alliances, Conflicts, and People as much as it would. To be honest, I am beginning to think 0.0 space is over ratted. PvP is Fun, and Making Isk in 0.0 is Fun... But its getting to the point where you have to ask yourself, is it really worth the Logistics Work, and constant OMG CCP hate us, make life as close to work as possible in 0.0 patches (read nerf without enough warning to adapt). I love my alliance, and I love the pilots I fly with, and thats all that keeps me putting up with this crap. CCP, please learn ASAP that your a Company, and its finacially in your intrest to ensure players/customers are happy and enjoying the game. If you keep making work/stress/hassle for plays, people will leave. /me ends rant Heh, it makes me happy.
Sarah Kunni	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:35:00 - [254] I think this is a bit soon, cant you do somesort of patch that gives the guys who have invested time into capital production time to get any mins currently in production to come out with the current reprocces rates?. I understand its a patch that "might" be needed, but for guys who have invested isk into production of moms only to find thay will now need to pay 20% (and might not have the ability to do so) its very harsh. Cant it be scedualed for say 31 days or so like a mini patch after 2.2?
albert camus Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:44:00 - [255] jump portal changes are too soon only fair to give a bigger window to those who have mins tied up.
Cker Heel Interstellar Starbase Syndicate Operations Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.13 12:56:00 - [256] Originally by: Shodo Deka I doubt anybody would spend 30+hours of work to get minerals out to 0.0 instead of just taking the 20% hit. I expect most mineral transporters will opt for the 20% penalty. Note that to get the same quantity of minerals to 0.0 as before the 20% tax, you actually have to buy 25% more minerals in empire and haul 25% more m3 to 0.0. Prices will rise 25%, not 20%. To move 100 mineral units to 0.0 when 20% go to waste, means moving 125 units. But thats still far preferable to the mineral compression of the ore ship. If I read right, it compresses minerals at 3:1 or 4:1.
Ms Rouge	Posted - 2007.08.13 13:02:00 - [257] Is ccp is trying to push the miners who hang in empire out to the 0.0 regions and alliances? large alliances in general don't want isk farmers and pure miners as part of their alliance. They tend to be dead weight and dont really offer anything other then complaints and moral drags. the pvp'ers are here to play the game. not guard the carebears. its boring. Games are about fun not boring. put in too much boring you get macro miners. or people just leaving. seriously thats not a threat or a emo, thats simply what happens. Consider this, If you are getting macro miners allready you need to fix the problem not add to it. This Idea to nerf mineral compression in the illusion that its going to help the industrialists IS a step backwards. ok look at this logic. IF you feel you need to nerf mineral compression in order to get that mining capital into the game balance. take a step back and look at the mining capital design. its obviously not the right thing. Dramatic and sweeping changs to the economy mechanics is Not the answer. Honestly. you want a way for those poor miners to get their crap compressed so they can mine more. move less? Mobile refinery. there is you're answer. refine it on the spot into minerals from ore.
Vladameir Harkenin	Posted - 2007.08.13 13:38:00 - [258] I have an idea ccp, why don't we implement this as well cause it could be considered an eploit to most alliances in the game. by not allowing titans to jump bridge capitals and industrials. This way every alliance feels this nerf bat. Oh and also make it so jump bridges don't allow freighters to jump through. :) I remember when the devs of swg implemented something simular so quickly. It caused the game to go from "best mmo ever" to "dude, I can't believe you play that game" in less then a week. My views may have nothing to do with the views of my alliance or corp.
Glassback M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 13:59:00 - [259] So... Farming cloaking ravens, No Fix POS wars, No Fix Lagg/De Sync, No Fix Local as an intel tool, No Fix Some random Dev gets a bee in his beer about something thats not hurting anyone, making anyone real money and is in fact only making the game more livable yet is "easy" to fix. Looking for brownie points? G. If Eve was just a game, it would have a pause button.
Montaire Lacedaemon. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.13 14:03:00 - [260] Okay, get over it. ALL this means is that you have a 20% 'tax' on compressing your mins for ludicrous, easy jumping and movment. 430:1 -- And you thought this gravy train was going to go on forever ? Now thats just stupid. Its a trade off, and a pretty decent one at that. Eve is full of them.

Imhothar Xarodit Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.13 14:22:00 - [261] Edited by: Imhothar Xarodit on 13/08/2007 14:24:29 It is nice to know the Rorqual can move 240 mil Tritanium in form of compressed ore, but as long as you cannot form ore out of minerals this won't help 0.0 logistics in any way. The biggest issue here is not to move ore to empire, but to get minerals for production to 0.0. Not unless all alliances start empire mining divisions or all miners in empire start selling unrefined ore. Take Catch as example, I have never found any Kernite or Plagioclase down here, making the mexallon supply almost zero. So all our production relys on moving mexallon or other low-end minerals (as the Veld rocks are quite small tbh) from empire to Catch. And in order to maintain large-scale production for war efforts you have to move large numbers in short time. So where exactly is mineral compression hurtiung anyone? You only keep saying, that it is an issue, but you never tell us why it is an issue? I have never read any complaints about it anywhere as it is the only method of keeping production up in 0.0 where you don't have access to all minerals in the quantities you need.
Crocodylus pontifex	Posted - 2007.08.13 14:46:00 - [262] Originally by: Montaire Okay, get over it. ALL this means is that you have a 20% 'tax' on compressing your mins for ludicrous, easy jumping and movment. 430:1 -- And you thought this gravy train was going to go on forever ? Now thats just stupid. Its a trade off, and a pretty decent one at that. Eve is full of them. Very few people actually used the JPG for compression because the BPO costs 430m and takes 6 months to get to an acceptable ME/PE. Most of the modules actually used were in the 25-50:1 range. And it's not like compression is incredibly easy to begin with. I have to have 2 alts with maxed production skills churning out modules 24/7 to satisfy my mineral needs. That's in addition to baby-sitting empire buy orders, ferrying around minerals in my freighter, skilling up an alt with scrapmetal proc V + standings for perfect refines at several empire corps and finally jumping everything down to 0.0 in my carrier. It takes a serious investment in capital, skill and time. Despite that, it's still better than 0.0 freighter escorts or mining veld in 0.0.
01101100011101	Posted - 2007.08.13 15:06:00 - [263] Looking at the impact this will have within this madness of EVE War I, I cannot help but asking who's idea this was. Looking at how well vested some are with having moved away from 0.0 production and logistics alike, shifting towards low sec, while others having just arrived to the point of making the isk and war machines roll on using mineral compression to feed the frontlines .. I am so happy I am not paranoid. If I were, I would almost think of the consequences for this in the drama know as Eve war I.
Asuo The Wild Hunt FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.13 15:15:00 - [264] Can't people simply compress the mins in high sec and freighter them to lowsec before jumping them to 0 ?. Yes I am implying people build and use the Ore cap in high sec. -----------------------------------------------
Shodo Deka M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 15:22:00 - [265] Originally by: Asuo Can't people simply compress the mins in high sec and freighter them to lowsec before jumping them to 0 ?. Yes I am implying people build and use the Ore cap in high sec. As far as I understod it the only way to compress ore is with the new capital, which can't enter highsec.
Sothis Antares PBA Corporation The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.13 15:41:00 - [266] Originally by: 01101100011101 Looking at the impact this will have within this madness of EVE War I, I cannot help but asking who's idea this was. Looking at how well vested some are with having moved away from 0.0 production and logistics alike, shifting towards low sec, while others having just arrived to the point of making the isk and war machines roll on using mineral compression to feed the frontlines .. I am so happy I am not paranoid. If I were, I would almost think of the consequences for this in the drama know as Eve war I. can you unveil your opinion. sorry but this gives too much room to interpret. Who are 'some' and who are 'others'? Sorry, i'm relatively new here, and want to understand this.
Eton Favre Instagate Corp Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:01:00 - [267] OK had some time to think about this Still ****ed as all but... 1) Mineral compression not sure where the 170 modules are coming I am showing 228 modules from that give a compression ratio of better then 5:1 2) I think really the only ones people have problems with are the 430:1 yes I think we all agree that that is pushing it so Knock out the capital mods by increasing their size or rebalancing the minerals used. That would leave Small tractor beams near the top of the list for compression maybe increase the size of the mod, if you still think that it is too much 3) someone ran the numbers in the ORE cap thread that 240M compressed trit would require 56M in Stron or 4Mil per 10M trit. and would take 30 Hours of sitting in the ship to compress that. Again as stated in that thread how about using Liquid ozone. would create more of a demand for it as there currently is very little use for it. 4) Offer to buy back those High compression BPOs for NPC price as currently you are screwing over alot of players that have invested heavily in an industry that has been around since the game started. (note I don't own any of those BPOs but can see them being completely worthless after the patch) 5) Don't screw over everyone by reducing refine to 80% as someone who trained scrapmetal processing I find this highly offensive. I invested alot of time to refine stuff all your are doing by this is screwing over the players (0.0 and empire) 6) Make the new lab player buildable using the old labs as a base items and add in NPC sold items to increase its cost. Yes old labs will be useful but be honest about it. The majority of people who have research POS have them for the Copy slots. It is what pays the bills. as a result the resale value for the old labs will tank. Introducing a new module that has 6 copy slots even if they are not as fast as the old ones you are still getting 5 more slots to copy from. I currently have 20 labs but would be happy to take down a tower or 2 if I could run it all on 1 medium tower. I can understand "nerf" balancing but it seems that recently all you are doing is nerfing things forgetting the balancing, and not taking player input in to account. Yes This char is a carebear it funds my pvp attempts. Also I look an industy stuff as pvp. I make all of my money off other players, competing with other industy players. There are huge numbers of "carebears" see all the threads in the Industry section of this forum. I enjoy all the different directions you can go in this game. The industry side never gets attention. When we find ways to work around that using pvp tools (carriers, mineral compression) you nerf them to hell. With multiple dev blogs right next to each other and the new hardware announcement this blog slipped by me for a few days. The majority of the players that I have spoken too are just finding out about this. I think that if your going to make major changes you have to talk to your player base. This has huge ingame effects. Chronotis posts seem to read. Yes you all have concerns and we are listening to them but we are going to do it anyway despite the majority of people having problems with it. I might be misreading them but more and more I get the feeling that the great CCP staff that communicated with it players is gone. I star to see all the BOD references as making sense now. No not because it is true but people can talk till they are blue in the face with ligitament concerns and get nowhere. That tends to lead to a they don't care logic and then by default they don't care because it does not hurt them. I really hope that someone at CCP thinks about these things before you go to implement them. No you are never going to have 100% positive support, but generally most players believe in give and take. Please reread the threads and look into addressing some of the issues. Implimenting this on schedule and in its current form will create a lot of angry players. -- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=573770 Industy nerf Incoming - CCP devs Hate Carebears
Zachri Minmatar IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:03:00 - [268] Originally by: Ramblin Man CCP Chronotis, Since you prefer to skim posts, I will make this simple. PROBLEM: Mineral compression is too effective. SOLUTION #1: Individually address offending BPOs. REPERCUSSIONS: Wasted research time and ISK for players who chose to utilize those BPOs, most heavily impacting small, non-diversified operations (i.e. non-alliances). SECONDARY REPERCUSSIONS: Logistics re-adjustment to maximize against new CCP-capped mineral compression rates. SOLUTION #2: Implement the CCP One-Week Plan(tm). REPERCUSSIONS: Every 0.0 logistics operation must be categorically rebuilt from the ground-up 0.0 rat loot must be re-valued True mineral values of T1 items now require spreadsheet+db dump to find SECONDARY REPERCUSSIONS: Decreased liquidity of the entire T1 market due to newly directional one-way processes (minerals -> T1 != T1 -> minerals) (Remember? It worked so well with mining crystals you changed it!) Decreased liquidity of the entire T1 market due to murky value communication ("How much is this T1 item worth in minerals?") Decreased liquidity of minerals ("Well, now that I've refined I can't re-manufacture ore for compression.") 0.0 ratting must be repositioned around the loot changes ? (I don't know what's going to turn up as an "unintentional consequence" here, do you?) To sum, 1) You screw with a low number of specific variables. 2) You screw with a large number of general variables, and consequently with a larger number of secondary variables, and so forth. Which one makes more sense? You are forgetting some things. The impact for young organisations (alliances) who engage in deep space competing directly with vested organisations is quite severe, because of the invested time, isk and resources. Also, mineral compressions is not too effective, there are other factors which are not effective enough. Some deal with mentality and player behaviour (like populating low sec, you can't force people, only seduce them). Granted one print is a bit of an excess, but CCP have known this, even advertised it as an optimal solution. In these days of fast paced campaigns only held up by Sovereignty influences logistics have become a critical element. The consequences of adapting to change will have substantial impact in game for an abundance of organisations, as they will have to accept the loss of a lot of isk and resources, while having to invest in alternate solutions and methods - which takes time, and more isk. While more established organisations have the built up capacity to deal with things like this with far greater flexibility.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:39:00 - [269] Feel free to edit and repost with a version number increment! I'm currently on vacation atm, so no long-term thread-love from me.
Alcrista Somez Amarr The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:40:00 - [270] Chrons initial post said this will make make the use of the JPG, and compression with mods in general, unprofitable. But here we have 10 pages of people who apparently ACTUALLY DO LOGISTICS largely saying they will still use the compression mods anyway but the 20% refine tax will just make prices climb and mainly financially damage smaller groups who dont have access to jump portals yadayada. Its two very strongly conflicting ideas about how these changes will effect Eve. Have you no comment on this CCP? It seems what you want is for people to use your new ship as a compression tool instead of compression mods, and not for this change to bugger up substantial markets and make parts of the game more tedius for us? Is that correct? And if so, do you think all these people are wrong? Do you think they (we) will all use the new ORE ship anyway and the markets will be largely uneffected? It would be nice to have a vague clue about what Chronotis thinks about the specifics of all this great feedback and some very pertinent questions that have been raised. Obviously you can skip over the personal insults Chron... ye.. keep your thoughts about those to yourself...

Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:41:00 - [271] Edited by: Elmicker on 13/08/2007 16:41:05 30 hours. WP Chronotis.
HUFFSKI	Posted - 2007.08.13 16:59:00 - [272] OMG OMG Dont let this happen or we go up in smoke i plee u not to carry out this nerf. Cheers sla
Cyan Nuevo The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:31:00 - [273] For all of you saying "this change is too fast!!!!!": Ummm, has it hit TQ yet? Do we even have an estimate of when it's going to hit TQ? No. You have plenty of time to adjust (if you're even going to adjust). @Elmicker: 20% more expensive ships means they're less disposable and take more effort (effort = getting money) to produce. --- Proud Amarr pilot.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:34:00 - [274] Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together.

Kal Shakai	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:40:00 - [275] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Thank you for seeing that this needed more attention and realizing a more balanced solution was needed. Cheers
Eton Favre Instagate Corp Shroud Of Darkness	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:41:00 - [276] Yeah the real CCP Chronotis is back.... glad you escaped from the basement the "carebear hating devs" have you chained up in. What did you do with the guy they had impersonating you? -- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/new_rorqual.php Rorqual ORE Capital miner info.
Pepperami Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:44:00 - [277] Thanks for listening. A-WAR might be Recruiting!
Virtuozzo IVC Consortium INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:46:00 - [278] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Cheers, a lot of people have started breathing again. Virtuozzo Last words of a Caldari general: "Pull the Ravens back! Full retreat! they've got frigates!" snip Inappropriate. -Elmo Pug
Agent Stone Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2007.08.13 17:51:00 - [279] Edited by: Agent Stone on 13/08/2007 17:51:34 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Thank You! Reasuring to see CCP listen to the player base. <3 Chronotis
Barwinius Ars ex Discordia	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:02:00 - [280] Thank you.

Wad Macs	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:07:00 - [281] Originally by: Arthur Pewty I hope that the new Advanced Lab will be introduced as a Blue Print, with the Original Lab being a component of the Advanced Lab. This will allow us to upgrade, as opposed to throw away. Arthur Pewty Cool Idea!!!! I hope CCP will pay attention! I would hate throwing away my basic labs...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:07:00 - [282] Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix sure... everybody slaps a t2 cargo rig on a probe to get beyond 1k m¦ - and that would result in only one jump bridge (half a freighter) d("d) look, the JPG I is *by far* the ugliest compression method, yes. then there's 4 doomsies, equally ugly to research (and build). after those excessive (and easily adjustable) module sizes, we can start a constructive discussion. until then you're not helping with these exaggerations - putting the gist back into logistics
Trader Sandy	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:30:00 - [283] That is indeed good news.. I know that a number of people have been VERY upset with the thought that mineral compression would be hit with the nerf bat.. I am glad to hear that you guys are going to push this off for a while to make sure that there is a good sequence of events to make sure you don't cripple a large portion of the 0.0 player base.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:30:00 - [284] Originally by: Roemy Schneider Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix until then you're not helping with these exaggerations Its not an exaggeration, but neither will I state how its possible.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:33:00 - [285] Great!! Thanks for listening to the players! That is why EVE is so great, the devs are actually listening and also changing their plans if players give good feedback! Yay!
Snowden Vel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:34:00 - [286] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Thanks for listening, you had us nervous for a while.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:47:00 - [287] So that gives us till november/december to convince you this is a stupid idea? *****ing. I'll take those odds.
Infodragon Gallente Timetravel Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:48:00 - [288] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. /me suddenly hears millions of carebears cry out in fear, then suddenly silenced with a voice of reason. Very badly screwed up but a BIG THANKS!
Claudia Grant Gallente Quantum Synergies YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:56:00 - [289] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we when fixing this take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Respect and much <3 Thank you for realizing the massive impact this would have had on the economic balance and giving us time to adapt. Im impressed and breathe a sigh of relief.
Alcrista Somez Amarr The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 18:56:00 - [290] Originally by: Infodragon /me suddenly hears millions of carebears cry out in fear, then suddenly silenced with a voice of reason. Very badly screwed up but a BIG THANKS! LOL, and aye. Thanks for being prepared to consider everyones views. Now, before you plan to make this or similar changes next time, can we open discussion on them BEFORE you decide youre probably going to implement them? So that it doesnt feel like theres a time bomb ticking that we're all desperately trying to defuse before it goes off?

Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.13 19:15:00 - [291] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Its not an exaggeration, but neither will I state how its possible. If, as i suspect, it involves T2 rigs, then its an exaggeration. Even then, this particular situation could be solved by putting an extra 1,000m3 on the item involved.
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.13 19:19:00 - [292] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Your quite welcome - and i hope my calculations where right, even tho i still dont really understand how that Ore-Capital works. /me goes back now to do soem banking and accounting again. Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders Accounting and More
mamolian M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.13 19:58:00 - [293] Chron, promise me please.. that what ever change is decided on.. will not INCREASE our workload as players involved in 0.0 logistics.. This is already a tireless, boring, **** but necessary job, and I would implore you to instead make moving minerals using your new Rorqual more effective , thereby nullifying the need to compress minerals using bpos such as the JPG's.. Make it easier to produce in 0.0 not harder please. I do not have enough hours in my day to devote to freighter runs from Empire to 0.0, I do not have time to spend thousands of hours mining the minerals in 0.0 required to keep up with production, and meanwhile theres other hostile players standing in my flower beds, looking in through my front window.. Eve is a very complex system.. The workload cannot be completed equally across the alliances, due to trust, incompetence, will , etc etc.. and falls at the feet of a handfull of psychopathic, no life, director style people who make it all happen.. Leave mineral compression alone. Its just one of many tools required to make this beautiful game work.. Thanks, Mamo. -------------------------------
Mary Starsong	Posted - 2007.08.13 20:03:00 - [294] Any word on the new advanced labs? if they will use the current mobile labs as a base item and let us build the new ones?
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.13 20:16:00 - [295] Want to lock this thread now? I think you've stated what the next moves are, and they won't happen for at least 6 months. What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
1Of9 Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.13 20:23:00 - [296] Thank you for listening. I never been so happy for been wrong \o/
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 21:10:00 - [297] Thank you for listening. I can understand why you would want to push this change through, and I'm sure most people weren't upset at the prospect of losing the current mechanics of importation as they were about the lack of reaction time and the lack of mature substitutes to deal with the changes. Again, thank you for taking our views into account.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.13 21:50:00 - [298] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Roemy Schneider Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix until then you're not helping with these exaggerations Its not an exaggeration, but neither will I state how its possible. My guess, it involves the frigs fitting the guns in their highslots in some way. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Quutar Caldari Auraxian Irregulars The Sundering	Posted - 2007.08.13 21:59:00 - [299] i just noticed... the Rorqual takes longer to build than a carrier, dread, or freighter... and longer to research than even a mothership? is that intentional? since the carriers, dreads, and freighters all lined up with each other... and the mother ships were 2x them... and the titans were 4x them... i figured that the ORE cap ship's build time and rtesearch time would match the carriers and dreads. are the bpo details finalized? Not finding research slots in Empire Space? Try Quutar Research Services.
Ramblin Man Empyreum	Posted - 2007.08.13 21:59:00 - [300] CCP Chronotis, you are again my heart's delight. (For sooth!)

Bein Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.13 22:47:00 - [301] Originally by: Elmicker Originally by: CCP Chronotis Its not an exaggeration, but neither will I state how its possible. If, as i suspect, it involves T2 rigs, then its an exaggeration. Even then, this particular situation could be solved by putting an extra 1,000m3 on the item involved. I know what he is talking about and it is not exaggeration, though I don't know if anybody's actually bothered to do it. Firstname Lastname figured it out about a year ago.
kasalupin	Posted - 2007.08.13 22:49:00 - [302] OK folks, Fasten your seatbelt, this is going to be a long post but it is gonna be worth it i hope since it will shine a light on the whole reprocess/rorqual issue since those two items look like to be closely linked. Ok, so instead of the usual whine and how to fix the issue and since the decision is at least posponed let try to figure out why the devs at ccp reached this option and the underlying rationale behind it. So let start by the first player in this match: the new shiny ship the rorqual....... CCP would like them to be in belt with a bunch of hulks and mine a lot of roids to everybody profit..... We all know the general player inventiveness in figuring out new use for this ship. Instead, this ship probably become a glorified mini freighter with the cargohold of a pimped up dread and the ship bay of a carrier..... It might stay at a pos for its nice mining bonus and might have his ore compression feature being used to carry even more minerals in ninja mining ops. This ore compression feature is the main issue with the traditional ore compression method. So let say hello to the second player: the minerals compressions bit We all know that no one in its right mind mine veldspar in low sec or 0.0 and that pvp in such regions require massive amount of minerals to build the replacement ships and the massive capital ships that require oodle of low end minerals. At the beginning,you had nice and impressive convoy ops where you would find freighters loaded with tons of uncompressed trit and 30 ships just there to do the escort. Most people figured out that it is a very inefficient way to move stuff and here come the carrier with mineral compressions technology. Sure it cost some money to make the jump but it is so much safer and more importantly so much faster....... A freighter op easily take a few hours to do, a carrier jump take just a few minutes. Surely, ccp focus on the more massive mineral compressor but there is a catch to mineral compression: it is time....... Not only you have to check the compression ratio but you also have to check the compression time..... Compressing minerals and moving them require some form of planning as with moving them. As stated by other people in the various threads, we all agree that the jump portal and doomsday compression rate are absurd and should be reduced but the other items fullfill a crucial roles since no one move low end minerals in uncompressed form in low sec or 0.0 since the value of the cargo is not worth the risk. But let go back to the issue, ore compression and mineral compression are clearly competitot right? Wrong, there could be ways to make them work both together and to be beneficial to everybody. But why then this mineral nerf..... I feel it is due to: a) trying to advantage the use of the compression feature of the rorqual b) trying to deal with a predicted increase in mineral supply..... Increase in mineral supply????? wtf?? Well let think about it..... Except for chribba and excluding macroers, it is mostly new players that mine the low end ore and they usually have crap refine rates so about 20% of the mined amount is lost. What would probably happen is that major industrialist would buy the raw ore direct and then compress it to refine it later so you basically end up having lot of trit that will not end in roid repro waste but being used. Sure,roids are being bought atm but with this ore compression feature, the roids value will increase to probably more than their raw refine rate since their valuewill lie in their ability tbe compressed. So you now see the rationale of the whole story: reduce the repro rate of some items to reduce the low end availability and expect this to be balanced out with more roids low end to flood the market.
kasalupin	Posted - 2007.08.13 22:49:00 - [303] As shown in this thread,the reprocessing not only affect logistic but it also affect the livelyhood of many low sec and 0.0 dwellers that need these minerals to built their replacement parts (ships and ammo) in such treacherous space. Also, this thread show that you shouldn't try to force fed a new feature such as this one with wide implication instead make the alternative more appealing. Everybody know that eve is about pvp and logistic is not really pvp it is dull and tedious for most people. It is a grind and like all grind you will see as little as possible amount of ressource and player time used to do it. So sure after the 30% carrier carrying capacity nerf, a new capital ship designed to haul stuff is good but it doesn't have the base range of a carrier which still make the carrier suitable for interregion jumping. Again it is dull to have cyno alt and if you can get rid of some you will probably use a more efficient ship. The rorqual with the same range of the carrier will replace it since it carry more while the dread has not replaced the carrier even after the carrier nerf since its jump range limit him a bit. As regard to the ore compression feature, it will all depend on the strontium cost of it vs its usefullness but a virtual 600k compressed bay sure look sexy. The orqual in roid feature will probably not happen since a hulk cost 150M top to replace compared to 2Bill for the rorqual. Maybe if the rorqual was EW resistant and had a capital shield boost feature both on the capital shield booster and capital shield transport amount then it might make a viable tanker but atm with no offensive ships in its bay it just look like a big shoot me sign. As regard to the way it was handled, i just don't understand why i was not proposed sooner and the time delay of the rorqual operation compared to the immediate reduction in mineral availability taken in account. Surely, a DB query can show you how many players can currently pilot this ship and thus its availability in the current game dynamic. But, most importantly, why no prior discussion, the indusrialist and traders out there are a bunch of well behaved folks that are more than happy to discuss how to improve the overall trade industrialist part of the game. I am happy that this change has be postponed but since it is only postponed let try in a few months after the rorqual full effect to check if it is still needed or a small tinkering of compression volume is required.
Luaren Avidius	Posted - 2007.08.13 23:45:00 - [304] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we fix this bug and take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. THANK YOU for listening! Now hopefully we can all work with you to find real solutions to the problem of mineral compression that the JPG and DDDs can cough up.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.13 23:46:00 - [305] Just to add an opinion: the planned change (fixing compression) was good and fair; fixing something that was never supposed to be. It's a game: it works better if things are challenging and changing. -Lasse
Audri Fisher Caldari VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.08.14 00:07:00 - [306] Originally by: Francesca Dell'Agio Originally by: Cringeley Wait, does any of this have to do with the fact that Dr.Eyj=G's background is in "experimental economics"? Are we being used as research subjects? Always. But there are other questions you should be asking yourself. - why have some folks no longer been bothering with keeping their pets alive for other purposes then the meatshield - why have some folks sold off their jump portal generators en masse about a month ago after non stop production and shipping for 3 months and refining them like mad - why have some folks consciously decided to not upgrade refineries at a point in time well before this came out I seriously hope it's not getting to that point again, but a few leadership posts on a few forums from before all of this surfaced now make sense. We have a winner.....
Chruker	Posted - 2007.08.14 00:41:00 - [307] The newest patch on SISI has an unpublished blueprint which can build the advanced lab from a regular lab. Is this something that is coming which will allow us to upgrade existing labs? ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Updated data export - Speedup IGB table rendering
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.14 02:32:00 - [308] Hmm.. Actually I was thinking about bonuses on the Skiff etc, one thing that did concern me was that while being able to mine veld in 0.0 closer to the value of crokite et al would be good, you'd have to be careful to not make it too easy in highsec or prices would really tank.
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.14 02:49:00 - [309] Hmm. Can you fit a doomsday into the highs of a frigate and just not have it active ? Mind you training that skill for that purpose...
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.08.14 03:06:00 - [310] I'm wondering if this couldn't just be applied to capital mods... After all unless they're going to be dropping as loot (possible ?) there's much less need to refine those...

Mantalari Altis Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.14 05:56:00 - [311] Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke OK, you had to know that people were going to at least try to figure this out, especially after someone calls you on it and you claim it isn't an exaggeration but that you're not going to tell us how... Now, two freighters worth (assuming we're not reprocessing the freighters themselves and also not the frigate) is, in the smallest possible case going to be two Fenrirs. At 720,000 m3 each, that's 1.44M m3. (And that's ignoring the fact that the pilots have to have at least one level of Minmitar Freighter giving them a 5% bonus and taking it to 756,000 m3 per Fenrir). I've by no means done an exhaustive check, but if we take frigate to literally mean things listed in the market or item database under the 'Frigate' heading, then I think the best cargo hauling frigate is the Inquisitor. It has a base cargo hold of 315 m3, three low slots and three rig slots. Near as I can tell, this gets you (with T2 expanders and T2 rigs) 1,128.2 m3. If you then stuff that full of cargo containers, the best case will be that you gain 20% per 100m3, bringing you to 1348.2 m3. Now, without going into just which compression item you're going to try to squeeze into those cans, lets assume that we can get the best case 430:1 compression (even though that's on the jump portal generator, which while one would fit in 1000m of our base hold, that means we'd be sacrificing 200 m3 that we could gain from cans). 430 * 1348.2 is only a bit under 580,000 m3. And in reality we can't get that since we can't use all the capacity evenly with something that gets us the full 430:1. If on the other hand, we take frigate to mean a frigate-sized ship, then we could look at destroyers. Tech II ships tend to have extra slots, but drop a rig slot and generally have smaller cargo holds than the largest frigates and destroyers. Again, I'm betting that Amarr is going to get us the most bang for our buck. A Coercer looks like the best bet, with a base hold of 300 m3, four low slots and three rig slots. Again, we can fit T2 expanders and rigs for a total hold size of 1369.95 m3 before cans. Cans would bring it to 1629.95. Still a theoretical maximum of no more than 700878.5 m3. That still falls short of a full freighter... not much though. Even so, these theoretical maximums are unattainable without some way to squeeze our 430:1 ratio items into cans as small as 120 m3 on the inside... not to mention the tens of m3 that are not holding a container. OK, that still leaves us with high and medium slots on the ship... Again, the destroyer is likely to be the best bet. Can we manage to squeeze 740,000 m3 into the module slots left over and still meet the "no more than 50% over the PG of the ship" requirement to undock? (Or was that restriction removed?) I'm pretty sure we're not going to manage it... But let's assume for a moment that we can manage it. Let's say I've managed to pack 1.44 million m3 of compressed minerals onto and on a coercer hull. Even assuming that it is only tritanium involved, the coercer is now holding 144 million units of compressed trit worth somewhere around two and change isk per unit... Lets just call it 400 million isk. And you expect ANYONE to risk 400 isk in cargo to a ship with the handful of hitpoints that a Coercer has (after modified by expanded cargoholds and cargohold optimizations)? Oh yeah... and then there's the cost of those three T2 rigs and 3 expanders to add into the uber-destroyer we just lost to a rocket kessie in empire. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that you guys a reconsidering at least the rapid/stealth deployment of this change. But I had to at least try to boggle this one out a bit. And yes, it is still pretty broken that you could haul two-thirds of a freighter's worth of minerals un just about any frigate or destroyer if you REALLY tried.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.14 06:57:00 - [312] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 14/08/2007 06:57:43 Originally by: Mantalari Altis Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke OK, you had to know that people were going to at least try to figure this out, especially after someone calls you on it and you claim it isn't an exaggeration but that you're not going to tell us how... I don't know enoug about carriers but: a) can you put a ship in the hangar of a carrier with oversized, inactive modules on? b) can you install a oversized, unactive module at a POS or with the help of a carrier and then fly throug a gate/use a jump bridge? If one or both of those option are possible, you have your solution.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.14 07:32:00 - [313] Thankyou for listining to us CCP! Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.14 09:16:00 - [314] With the addition of the new Adv LAB, is it possible to have 12tF CPU added to the small Gallente tower? To fit 2 x Adv + 1 x basic LAB you will need 1700tF (2x600+500), the tower produce 1688. People using small Caldari towers will be laughing as they easily can fit 3 Adv LABs and still have spare CPU left. Ofcourse the best option would be to only add 10% CPU/PG to the Adv LAB. Could fit 3 of them on a small Gallente tower then. Signature approved by Eldo
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.14 09:32:00 - [315] Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke If you can fit a frig with 4 offline jump portal generators in the highslots using a POS I can see how this would be possible. Signature approved by Eldo
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.14 09:41:00 - [316] Originally by: Mantalari Altis ... And you expect ANYONE to risk 400 mil isk in cargo to a ship with the handful of hitpoints that a Coercer has (after modified by expanded cargoholds and cargohold optimizations)? Your reasoning has a flaw: you don't need to fly that ship. You could scoop it into shiphangar of carrier. And since frig sized ships are small you could transport lots of them in a single carrier...
John McCreedy Caldari Eve Defence Force	Posted - 2007.08.14 12:40:00 - [317] Has it ever actually occured to you that living in 0.0 is hard enough as it is right now and the reason that most logistics are done via Carrier and mineral compression and not Freighter, is not because we can't afford freighters and not because it's safer but because most of us don't want to spend two nights a week doing a six hour round trip to Empire and back? Freighters are fantastic at moving large quantities of items through Empire afk on AP (or would be if you'd stop high-sec ganking) but as a tool for Alliances, they're more a hinderence by putting people off playing Eve than a help. Has it also ever occured to you that the only reason to live in 0.0 is the fact that it brings greater wealth therefore no one wants to mine veld in 0.0. Where's the reward compared to the risk there when you can just mine it in 1.0? Give us a jump capable Freighter please for 0.0 logistics if you want to remove mineral compression. Make it easier to live in 0.0, not harder. Make a Difference
Internet Online Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.14 12:46:00 - [318] Someone noted before that the whole mining Veldspar in 0.0 for Tritanium problem could be solved by introducing new types of 0.0 or low sec asteroids with vastly greater low end mineral yields. Is there any reason why such an easy fix to the whole mineral packaging issue wouldn't be feasible?
D Gelalder Gallente Apraxia	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:23:00 - [319] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. Instead of a ship specific bonus, a mining upgrade module that give a bonus for mining a specific group of ores might be interesting to look at.
Mantalari Altis Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:26:00 - [320] Originally by: Internet Online Someone noted before that the whole mining Veldspar in 0.0 for Tritanium problem could be solved by introducing new types of 0.0 or low sec asteroids with vastly greater low end mineral yields. Is there any reason why such an easy fix to the whole mineral packaging issue wouldn't be feasible? Actually, I've been thinking about this a bit with this thread. Why not new ore types that can only be found via exploration in 0.0 and require deep core mining but yield huge quantities of low-ends? They could even have very poor reprocessing characteristics without training of extra skills if you feel a need to make it something hard to exploit, or require special POS modules to reprocess them at all... they could even require your new rorqual to mine and or reprocess them, giving the ship a reason to exists in 0.0. You just need to make the value of the low-ends mined in this way worth the time when compared to either the logistics of hauling in compressed minerals, or the other profitable activities that a highly developed 0.0 character could be doing instead.

Mynchko Atoch	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:27:00 - [321] Originally by: Mantalari Altis Originally by: CCP Chronotis the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke OK, you had to know that people were going to at least try to figure this out, especially after someone calls you on it and you claim it isn't an exaggeration but that you're not going to tell us how... Now, two freighters worth (assuming we're not reprocessing the freighters themselves and also not the frigate) is, in the smallest possible case going to be two Fenrirs. At 720,000 m3 each, that's 1.44M m3. (And that's ignoring the fact that the pilots have to have at least one level of Minmitar Freighter giving them a 5% bonus and taking it to 756,000 m3 per Fenrir). ... and lots more blather missing the point ... Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that you guys a reconsidering at least the rapid/stealth deployment of this change. But I had to at least try to boggle this one out a bit. And yes, it is still pretty broken that you could haul two-thirds of a freighter's worth of minerals un just about any frigate or destroyer if you REALLY tried. Mate, you are not as clever as you think you are. Who said anything about using the frigate's cargo hold?
Mantalari Altis Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.14 21:18:00 - [322] Originally by: Mynchko Atoch Who said anything about using the frigate's cargo hold? Nobody I suppose. But if you're fitting off-lined capital modules on a frigate and able to fly it around, then that is what's broken. Not the modules. I'm guilty of the same thing on a smaller scale myself. Back before they put the bit in about not being able to undock if you'd drastically exceeded the ship's grid (and CPU?) I used to fly a frigate with large guns or launchers in the highs (off-lined) to get a couple extra big named items ferried up from 0.0 to empire for sale. It was a cheap way to deal with a small cargo hold while still having a fast maneuverable ship that took a long time to lock so that it could skitter through gate camps. Nowadays there'd be no need for anything like that, but at the time it was a handy little trick. But now you have the ability to fit in space... who needs to undock? Maybe the check should be moved to when you fit the module. [Cue Aura voice] "You cannot fit that module as you do not have enough power grid to fly the ship, even with the module offline." Problem solved. Quote: Mineral compression is broken .. fix the offending modules. I agree with that to some degree. Certainly compression ratios of 430:1 are pretty wrong. But that's easily fixed in a lot of cases. How about making jump portal generators have a volume of 10,000 m3 instead of 1000 m3? Suddenly it has a 43:1 compression ratio. Still pretty hefty, but not that bad. Still fits in a industrial, depending on the ship and fittings. Not a few dozen at a time, but it does fit. Another option is to change the mineral ratios. Decrease the amount of tritanium and pyerite used and increase the amount of mexallon and isogen for example. Better still, combine the two. Make the module take up 2000 or 3000 m3 while fiddling with the mineral ratios. The same re-balancing can be done with lots of modules that have high compression ratios. Mix and match which things go up here and there so that you're not putting too much strain on any given mineral. Would this take a lot of effort to do it well? Yes. But it makes a lot more sense than what had been proposed so far. And I'm definitely down with reducing the need for massive importation of highly compressed low-ends by making it profitable, or at least reasonable to mine them in 0.0 through the introduction of special 0.0 low-end bearing ores as mentioned in recent posts in this thread. Quote: There is nothing intrinsically wrong with reducing the perfect recycling to introduce a cost, but while you allow capital ships to be perfectely deconstructed into components, you will just change the engineered process and make it more tedious, with carriers being constructed in low sec and 'recycled' in null sec. Well, I think there actually is something intrinsically wrong with it. And I think the something is largely bound up in the ramifications that such a cost would have. They've been outlined repeatedly in this thread. Ultimately, without addressing the issues of availability of low-end ores in 0.0, you could easily end up with carriers being reprocessed as a means of mineral importation.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2007.08.14 22:54:00 - [323] Edited by: Ki Tarra on 14/08/2007 22:55:57 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Compression Rates ~20:1 for high end ores ~20:1 for 'medium' ores ~40:1 for low end ores ~8:1 for ice While 40:1 compression might sound okay, that is the compression of the ore, not the minerals. Your best actual compression ratio is 13:1 with Dense Veldspar. Here is a quick run down of the mineral compression/expansion ratios. The 'concentrated' and 'dense' versions of the ores would provide and addition 5% or 10% bonus to the compression ratio. Compression: 11.99 Veldspar 9.90 Scordite 4.09 Pyroxeres 3.47 Plagioclase Expansion: (Yes, these compressed ores are still larger than their minerals.) 2.03 Omber 2.07 Kernite 3.83 Jaspet 8.56 Hemorphite 6.85 Hedbergite 20.40 Spodumain 11.68 Gneiss 16.00 Ochre 29.36 Crokite 20.02 Bistot 20.02 Arkonor 94.33 Mercoxit I am glad to hear that the mineral compression nerf has been delayed, but I think that if the ore compression is introduced correctly, the inevitable nerf can be done with much more grace. I would recommend rebalancing the ores based on their mineral compression ration instead of the ore compression ratio. As an example Low's ~40:1, Mid's ~20:1, Hi's ~10:1, or whatever is deemed to be reasonable. If compressed ore is established as a viable form of minerals transportation, it could be balanced directly. This might also help boost low sec mining, as the low sec ores would tend to be the best choice for mid range mineral compression. Low sec operations would also be required to compress hi sec ore. Ultimately the modules used for compression can be nerfed individually overtime, instead of nerfing refining in general. Personally I favor size adjustments for many of the modules. Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
Adm Tecumseh Caldari The Templars Knights	Posted - 2007.08.15 03:53:00 - [324] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we fix this bug and take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. OK what we are actually talking about is the jump portal generator. I have the BPO and spent months researching it to level me4. I paid 450 mil or more for it, months ago. I also have 8 perfect passive targetter BPOs. Worth about 15 mil per. So what we are talking about is taking about 800 million in assets from me for no real reason. ( I figure the me4 jump portal generator BPO is worth 650-700 mil now) Very friggin Nice CCP. How about this. Make a line of code that prevents capital mods from being put on a non-capital ships impossible. Or how about this? Decrease the compression rate from 430:1 to something more like 17.2:1 by making the space of the jump portal generator 25k m3, That way only one can be brought down from empire in a carrier at a time. ( unless you find a way to seriously trick out your carrier.) These 2 solutions result in the same end result however don't screw any player over for net worth.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.15 06:47:00 - [325] Mantalari Altis, your suggestions are the same ones many players have made here and they do achieve a much better solution but more importantly the timing of each change or addition is better placed to allow adjustments to be made by those affected long before the implementation so the transition is much smoother with the extension before the change is applied. Low sec 'low end' ore mining we will very much want to make more attractive so trit and pyerite can be obtained locally and personally I have been looking at some possibilities that may be even a little fun like 'blast mining' which like dynamite fishing is a highly illegal and dangerous activity not allowed by the empires but leaving such jotted down ideas (that are far from anything but high level concept in chronotis's head to spam the internal wiki with) aside, the most likely solution is some bonus to the skiff or mackinaw that will increase the mining rate in some way. But if any of you have ideas of your own, feel free to add in the features and ideas forum, we all pretty much read everything posted there. Advanced Mobile Lab feedback Regarding the advanced modile lab, the extra slots and its affect on things like the caldari outpost is admittedly a concern. Something that may lead us to adjust some of the final attributes before the patch such as making it have a higher power/cpu need, perhaps limiting the slots more but giving it a bonus to job times over the mobile lab. As with everything, the design will evolve based on internal and community feedback. Ore compression Ki Tarra, you are right in that whilst ore is compressed the minerals are not in the case of anything but the low ends. However, this is still fairly desirable as the high end ore is looking to be brought back to a refinery whereas the low end ore is looking to be used for transport to a producer. Come kali 3 when we will look to add in new low sec methods of mining and the demand for low end ore switches to local suppliers, alongside the compressed ore secondary market that will mature through time to a good future where empires can be built in null sec from the materials near them. We are not ruling out evolution in the current designs though for the rorqual in future patches. As ever with eve, nothing endures but change.

Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.15 07:33:00 - [326] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Come kali 3 when we will look to add in new low sec methods of mining and the demand for low end ore switches to local suppliers, alongside the compressed ore secondary market that will mature through time to a good future where empires can be built in null sec from the materials near them. Just for information, this move from high sec to low sec mining, is intended to reduce macrominig/sweatshops activity too?
Twarda Sztuka	Posted - 2007.08.15 07:53:00 - [327] Edited by: Twarda Sztuka on 15/08/2007 07:53:17 Originally by: CCP Chronotis ...A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we fix this bug and take away something many have come to rely on. ... Thank you. That's what I wanted to hear. Planned changes with a roadmap are much better than "lets change it and see what will happen" approach. Again, thank you. Wery wise decision. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Sadly there was no constructive input on my part. Mostly whinning. But I really didn't see it working as originally described.
Farrellus Cameron Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2007.08.15 08:33:00 - [328] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update The item material reprocessing fix will be delayed until a future patch after kali 2.2. Many players have asked for more time to adapt to the changes and time to assess suitable alternatives being implemented as we talked about previously such as addressing the mining of veldspar in null sec for example with additional bonuses to the skiff and mackinaw amongst other suggestions made elsewhere in this thread by many players. A much better roadmap and sequence of changes is needed and preferable with time to implement and see how the Rorqual and other alternatives mature before we fix this bug and take away something many have come to rely on. We realise many supercap industries have heavy reliance on this method to supply their minerals from the marketplace and that whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix, it can be done in a better way. In summary, nothing with these modules is happening till at least kali 3.0 now, where nearer the time we will address other mechanics such as low/null sec low-ore mining and others in parallel to provide good and better alternatives. Most importantly, thanks to those of you who provided good constructive feedback, it is always awesome that you care as much as we do about the game and help us find the right direction for it together. Thanks for this. Would like to see some sort of boost to low end mining. The tritanium requirements for maintaining a solid ship industry in null sec is just plain ridiculous to expect to be able to keep up with it using the current mining mechanics. Maybe some sort of boost to tech2 mining crystals for low end ores, or some special low end strip miner laser with higher yield but cannot work on high end ore. ----------------------------------------------------
Mestoth Minmatar Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.15 10:29:00 - [329] The only comment i wish to make is this: Nice that the rorqual can compress and haul 240m trit....we still need to MINE 20 or so MILLION veld...at a grand total of what...10K per hour... (exageration there). To encourage people to actually MINE veldospar, you need to double or tripple its RATE OF MINING (not density of asteroids or number, but physcial RATE that it comes in)... even with veld II crystals etc etc...you get nothing! Lets tripple or quadruple the amount PER cycle that comes in...then start looking @ changing the rest. Low should be X4 Mids should be X 2 Hights X 1 Hence,...as the names suggest, Low Ends should be abundant! IE: Real World Example: Iron is available. Everywhere. Cheaply (relativly) (LOW) Getting Gold (mid range) is not tooo expensive, but is available. Getting Natural Diamonds (high endS) are expensive and limited in quantity. In 0,0...it is easier to get TONNES of high ends (the diamonds) but nothing else! and i know we are in 0,0..so it should be skewed to the right side (high)...but not such that the net market has....1 -2 sellers of Trit...and 50 of 600K+ Zydrine sellers.... ie: BOOST VELD AND SCORDITE INCOME RATES Boost MID RANGE (by a little) Keep Highs.
Vincent Law Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.08.15 12:44:00 - [330] Edited by: Vincent Law on 15/08/2007 12:44:26 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Come kali 3 when we will look to add in new low sec methods of mining and the demand for low end ore switches to local suppliers, alongside the compressed ore secondary market that will mature through time to a good future where empires can be built in null sec from the materials near them. This secondary market will probably be run by the same macro miners that choose to farm ice and ore in highsec already. I'm sure absolutely no one will be willing to manage the compression process of a full load of veldspar (see Apocalytica Insomnia's post) and as a result will turn to the market as a source of their compressed low-ends. Everyone prepare to see fleets of Rorquals sitting in lowsec poses compressing these minerals to cater to those of us that don't have the time to run the time sink that eve is becoming.

Helevorn Feanaro	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:32:00 - [331] Originally by: Kil'Roy Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Kil'Roy It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Since when was mineral importation and production 'instant gratification'? Do you even know how much effort is involved, even with carriers? Yes, I do... People complain how much Blob Warefare is bad, yet want to be able to replace their losses quickly to get back into that Blob. People complain how insurance pays too much, but complain how it is too hard to get the materials to replace their ships. If it is too easy to replace your losses, then Blob warefare is all you will have. The harder it is to replace your losses the less likely you would be willing to risk your ship, and the more the well balanced Alliances will have the advantage. The way to make it so not everyone is flying either a BS, Dread, or Carrier is to keep it hard to replace them. Make it so the hardest thing is to keep flying a BS, not training for it. Team work and diversification should be key. Don't only have Pvp'ers, or Carebears, have the proper mix in your Alliance. The future of this game shouldn't be about the next hard thing to train for, but are you organized well enough to keep flying the best. The well organized Nation "Alliance" should have the advantage. I think CCP is on the right path with this, but may take some time to balance it out. /signed
Fonze Sam	Posted - 2007.08.15 14:00:00 - [332] I would suggest the following take on the already mentioned æsuper veldsÆ idea: How about introducing hidden belts of Blackveldspar & Darkscordite? I would envisage these belts to be rare, in 0.0 only, but once found to be major finds. These can only be scanned down by the ORE capitalÆs specialised ore sensor arrays with the already popular exploration interface. Maybe even require triangulation with covert ops ships to find the really good but hard to find belts, in small teams of explorers. The Dark asteroids must be mined by deep core mining technology employed by the skiff and refines to 10x the amount of empire veld/scordite. I would envisage black ice too with the mackinaw getting the same kind of yields of empire ice versions. Once found these sites should be big enough to get the whole alliance involved for several consecutive days. We have all seen 200 man fleets in pvp ops, with 100 capitals, it would be cool if we had a reason to see 100 mining ships and 50 Rorquals in a big mining operation. If the sites slowly degraded once found this would add an urgency to itÆs recovery. This then brings the scenario of hostile alliances trying to break up these ops too: i.e. much fun/danger/rewards to both sides.
gordon861 Minmatar AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.08.15 14:02:00 - [333] If this change is to make people mine more of the minerals for use in construction rather than using loots to supply minerals for construction, it makes sense. But instead, 1. Increase the losses from reprocessing by a large amount 2. Create a POS module for compressing minerals 3. Allow that module to also uncompress the minerals In fact you even all ready have compressed minerals in the game, just make the compressed minerals the same as the current drone alloys (but maybe make them take up less space). Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Mikron Alexarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:01:00 - [334] The idea of taking 80% of refines on modules doesn't make much sense. I think back to the times when new features of the game were released as news articles. The storyline played an important part in the release of these new technologies. CCP was the omniscient corporation in the game. You didn't get press releases from devs. You got press releases from in game corporation's leaders about what new and exciting technology was being released. This has some of what I'm talking about. When t2 was introduced, it was a news article. There was storyline to it. It wasn't just some release from the devs in a blog somewhere on the website. Getting back to the storyline, what is perfect efficiency again? It's the ability to reprocess and rebuild an item from the same minerals costing only what the station charges to go through the process. Making only some select items have some 20% deficiency in refining makes no sense in terms of the game world. This interaction between the storyline and actual game play is what makes this game great. It's not just the warring 0.0 alliances slugging it out at eachother, it's the part of the game that all players can appreciate that make this game top dog in the MMO world. How many other games allow for such interaction between storyline and gameplay? Not many. It takes a lot of planning and development. All that time pays off in customer satisfaction. Now on to the battleships question: What should be the cost of flying a battleship? In the early days of eve, a battleship was something like the super capitals are today. You just didn't see them at every stargate in eve. The blobs of Battleships that clutter space will only be replaced by frigates and cruisers if the cost of a BS significantly increases. Wars will be determined by who is willing to grind longer to be able to fly those battleships instead of which side will run out of minerals first or which side gets tired of fighting. As a miner, transporter, and recreational PVPer, I think that wars should be decided by who is the best everything at the end of the day. Wars should not be decided by an alliances foothold being reinforced by a titan acting solely as a logistics ship. I read most, but not all of the posts in this thread. There were some people that welcomed a logistics change. But no one has endorsed a 20% decrease in refines on selected items. As a carebear and fellow player, I would hate to see anymore disconnect between gameplay and the storyline - now, in REV3.0, or other. There must be alternatives that target what you want to target while minimizing the effect on the other aspects of eve. (start whipping that economist into playing all parts of the game ) I love eve, and I love the immersion in the storyline. It was a shame that the Tetrimon story arc got so screwed up, but leaving behind that immersion in favor of what I see in this forum is what will ultimately kill EVE. Once you destroy a game mechanic that people like, you must have something to keep them here. That storyline is it. ____________________________________________________________________] "Did you just smacktalk my grandma?"
Andrus Delai e X i l e FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:24:00 - [335] Originally by: CCP Chronotis In kali 3.0, we aim to introduce a wider range of fixes to not only resolve the issue which has lead to an increase in use of modules such as the jump portal generator or tractor beam but also provide more suitable alternatives, for example, addressing some of the reasons why low end ores such as veldspar for example are not mined in null/low-sec and make changes to different aspects such as loot, low-end ore mining with skiffs and mackinaws. These changes slated for kali 3.0 will cause many null-sec dwellers to have to alter their current operations where they have established such around use of mineral compression and you rightly need as much time as possible to adapt. I don't understand why many people are screaming DOOOM! Chronotis clearly states that CCP will provide suitable alternatives. If CCP addresses why low ends are not mined in 0.0, then it might be that mineral compression is no longer necessary. And to be honest, mineral compression is an exploit and should go away. I give CCP props for not only giving us a heads-up on the coming changes well in advance, but also for planning to address the reasons why mineral compression first started.
Artmedis Valben Gallente Lobster of Babel	Posted - 2007.08.15 21:51:00 - [336] There is a much better way to do this. 1) Adjust the mineral composition of every module that has too high a reprocess rate (170 items). 2) If you want reprocess rate to be less than than 100% even when building with 0% waste, then make that across the board. 3) Its easy to nerf the most blatant abuses with having a lower cap on the reprocess value of Capital modules. 4) Give the Rorqual a single turret slot, and allow it to fit a Capital Strip Miner that requires crystals to use. Only have Veldspar crystals. Since they can only be used in low-sec/no-sec where no one mines Veld anyways, this will get Veld mining done in those areas, and will solve the issue of hauling Trit to 0.0 Just My two cents ___________________________________________ Selling PERFECT PRINTS of almost all seeded BPOs. Lobster of Babel currently holds 671 of the 728 Tech 1 BPOs seeded. 7 ships and Capital are missing.
Mantalari Altis Caldari Mercatoris Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.15 22:06:00 - [337] Originally by: Andrus Delai Originally by: CCP Chronotis In kali 3.0, we aim to introduce a wider range of fixes to not only resolve the issue which has lead to an increase in use of modules such as the jump portal generator or tractor beam but also provide more suitable alternatives, for example, addressing some of the reasons why low end ores such as veldspar for example are not mined in null/low-sec and make changes to different aspects such as loot, low-end ore mining with skiffs and mackinaws. These changes slated for kali 3.0 will cause many null-sec dwellers to have to alter their current operations where they have established such around use of mineral compression and you rightly need as much time as possible to adapt. I don't understand why many people are screaming DOOOM! Chronotis clearly states that CCP will provide suitable alternatives. If CCP addresses why low ends are not mined in 0.0, then it might be that mineral compression is no longer necessary. And to be honest, mineral compression is an exploit and should go away. I give CCP props for not only giving us a heads-up on the coming changes well in advance, but also for planning to address the reasons why mineral compression first started. People are screaming for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that there was not a lot of advance warning. Further, the proposed suitible alternatives are not scheduled to appear for quite some time, while the changes to reprocessing to 'address' mineral compression were going to be implemented almost immediately until midway through this thread the decision was made to hold off for a while. Even with CCP holding off on making the changes later and trying to spread out the impact over a more staged introduction, there are people that are screaming because they have a huge investment in mineral compression that would be made useless literally overnight. The example of the guy that bough a Jump Portal Generator BPO, researched it for months and then expected to use it for purposes of mineral complression... That poor bastard has an investment that was worth somewhere around three-quarters of a billion isk prior to the announcement of the reprocessing nerf for mineral compression. I'd scream too. Now that the decision has been made to hold off and fix things in a more staged and probably better planned way, with viable alternatives for mining low-ends in low-sec and 0.0 planned at least vaguely for around the same time... Panic can probably be shelved in favor of reasoned discussion. I don't think that mineral compression itself can't be termed an exploit. I do think that there are some compression ratios that are unreasonable. I do think that being able to transport capital modules by mounting them on a frigate in space is a bit obscene too.. But I also think that nobody in their right mind would try to fly a frigate with a few jump portal generators mounted up to it through 0.0. I think they'd be pretty foolish to try to fly it through empire, frankly. In general though, I do wish that proposed radical changes to game mechanics for the purpose of ending a widespread practice should be well vetted before being announced. Here you have a widespread practice that lots of people had invested lots of isk, time, effort, and skill training in that was going to be summarily terminated. Think about it. What industrial corp doesn't own a handful of passive targeter BPOs for the purpose of moving a giant pile of trit around for production purposes? That's something that even a small scale corp could and would do. Hell, it even makes more sense for a small scale corp since they might not be able to swing having a freighter to move trit around in. Changes like this should have a couple questions answered early on: Who's going to be negatively impacted by this change? Is there a viable alternative to the activity that we're going to impact? What are the local and universe-wide economic impacts?
Andrus Delai e X i l e FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.16 03:36:00 - [338] Originally by: Mantalari Altis In general though, I do wish that proposed radical changes to game mechanics for the purpose of ending a widespread practice should be well vetted before being announced. Here you have a widespread practice that lots of people had invested lots of isk, time, effort, and skill training in that was going to be summarily terminated. Thanks for clearing it up. I didn't realize that the Dev Blog had been changed from when it was first posted. I only read the current incarnation and missed the fact that it had been edited. I agree that changes of this magnitude should not be sprung on players.
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.08.16 08:58:00 - [339] does anyone have a copy of blog before editing? it's so vague now.. basically as I understood from the comments, it said that you will only get 20% of the mineral cost from item refining, correct? and were some details on mineral compression process cost provided?
Fastercart Gallente Ihatalo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.08.16 09:29:00 - [340] Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe does anyone have a copy of blog before editing? it's so vague now.. Try http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/news.php. Do a Find for "August 11, 2007, 05:00:50 pm" (without quotes).

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.16 11:08:00 - [341] Why not a check if capital ship modules (such like JPG) can only fitted to capital ships? Such a check should be quite easy to implement and I cannot see any problems that it will cause because capital ship modules belong to capital ships. Or is there already such a check?
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.16 11:20:00 - [342] Originally by: Mestoth The only comment i wish to make is this: Nice that the rorqual can compress and haul 240m trit....we still need to MINE 20 or so MILLION veld...at a grand total of what...10K per hour... (exageration there). To encourage people to actually MINE veldospar, you need to double or tripple its RATE OF MINING (not density of asteroids or number, but physcial RATE that it comes in)... even with veld II crystals etc etc...you get nothing! Lets tripple or quadruple the amount PER cycle that comes in...then start looking @ changing the rest. Low should be X4 Mids should be X 2 Hights X 1 Hence,...as the names suggest, Low Ends should be abundant! IE: Real World Example: Iron is available. Everywhere. Cheaply (relativly) (LOW) Getting Gold (mid range) is not tooo expensive, but is available. Getting Natural Diamonds (high endS) are expensive and limited in quantity. In 0,0...it is easier to get TONNES of high ends (the diamonds) but nothing else! and i know we are in 0,0..so it should be skewed to the right side (high)...but not such that the net market has....1 -2 sellers of Trit...and 50 of 600K+ Zydrine sellers.... ie: BOOST VELD AND SCORDITE INCOME RATES Boost MID RANGE (by a little) Keep Highs. There is one major flaw in this calculation. And that is the market. If you want trit that urgently, set up buy orders in 0.0 for the price you want to pay. If it is high enough you will get trillions if trit. You say it is much more profitable to mine Arkonor, and you are right with that! But why is it profitable? Because no one sets up buy orders for a fair price in 0.0! Actually some large alliances forbid their renteers to set up mineral buy orders at stations in 0.0! This way you destroy market and then it is no wonder that trit is artificial low. The thing is, you and all the other people, do not want to have high trit prices. You do not want to pay lots of money! That is your flaw. Free market and no strange mineral compression with absurd rates and the market would solve everything.
Imhothar Xarodit Minmatar Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.16 13:20:00 - [343] You cannot setup high enough tritanium buy orders to make Veldspar mining profitable in 0.0 due to the sheer quantity of tritanium you need. Paying 4k per megacyte is not so evil as you don't need so much of it but tritanium buy orders of, say, 10+ isk is insane. You would automatically need to increase the cost of all your products. An unresearched Rokh needs almost 12 mil trit to build. Can you imagine the ship/module price increase in this? It is not that simple...
Una Versa Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.16 17:50:00 - [344] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Important Update whilst the ability to move two freighters worth of minerals in a frigate is broke and something we want to fix... If this is broken, it is broken for many other reasons. 1. Where are the NPC haulers? Why can only players move things to fulfill player buy orders? Even if this happened automagically so as to not burden the servers with tons of npc ships hauling around the place - it's something should happen & currently makes less sense than mineral compression (which actually made sense when the foreign guy compared it to orange juice from concentrate). 2. Where are the robots? This is the future. Why can I not have ships that are on autopilot without me sitting in them? Maybe I jump in a BS and lead a convoy of Indys piloted by robots. Ok, if you don't want that in the game, fine - but realise that if this was reality, we would have robots, or perhaps aliens, doing our mindless grunt work. Now the player is stuck with the grind, and you want to make it more of a boring task? 3. Again with the small corp &/or lone player nerf. Creating a big dumb ship that only rich corps can build and utilise only marginalizes the little guy even more. How about making that mini-freighter or a super-indy that costs 100mil and hauls 200,000m3. This one has been raised 1000 times - but it would make it profitable and more importantly - accessible - for many smaller players to help supply & settle lowsec & 0.0. 4. Other stuff that I know nothing about - This is the greatest thread ever.. I'm thrilled to see everyone make a point of explaining to CCP why this is a horrible idea for a non-problem. Please don't do something to 'fix' a creative player solution to an oddity of the game that has many other sources. In fact, please do the opposite. Please make it easier to get minerals to lowsec & 0.0, and not just for capital ship & titan flying alliances.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.16 22:58:00 - [345] Edited by: Nyphur on 16/08/2007 23:03:57 I'm going to be perfectly honest. I'm not pleased that mineral compression is being removed as the Rorqual is not even as effective at that task as a carrier filled with tractor beams. I have a jump portal generator bpo with a bunch of ME on it and never really got much use out of it but I do see how that module is gamebreaking. Instead of making it 8000 m3, you're nerfing all mineral compression and that's.. fine, I guess. It's your decision. However, I do request one thing. If mining is to be profitable or useful again, it MUST be the primary source of minerals and therefore must be the most time-efficient source of minerals. This new capital ship doesn't address that issue and clearly isn't meant to. The only thing that will address that issue is a nerf of minerals from refinement of loot across the board and possibly a decrease of missionloot drop rates. Could you run some comparisons on mining versus refining all of the loot from a level 4 mission based on roughly the fastest competion time for a given mission? Compare the two in highsec and again in lowsec. As far as I am aware, people pull in a higher value in minerals running level 4 missions than they do mining in lowsec and they get zyd and mega. I really like mining and I want you to give me a good reason to go out into that belt in lowsec. Until you can do that, mining as a profession is not going to recover. I want you to force me to bring my corp out mining in lowsec again and force me to deploy the Rorqual in a lowsec belt where it's at risk of heavy assault from pirates, even some with capitals. I want mining to be the primary source of minerals in the game like it was in the good old days and I'm not the only one. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Ivor Gunn	Posted - 2007.08.17 01:49:00 - [346] Boost all 0.0 ores to the same isk/hour as the highest level ore available in that truesec. Lowend supply problem solved.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Endica Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.17 02:39:00 - [347] Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 17/08/2007 02:39:09 Originally by: Helevorn Feanaro Originally by: Kil'Roy Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Kil'Roy It's amazing how much instant gratification people seem to want in this game. This isn't, and should not be, some form of "Space" Half Life II or Unreal Tournament 2007. Since when was mineral importation and production 'instant gratification'? Do you even know how much effort is involved, even with carriers? Yes, I do... People complain how much Blob Warefare is bad, yet want to be able to replace their losses quickly to get back into that Blob. People complain how insurance pays too much, but complain how it is too hard to get the materials to replace their ships. If it is too easy to replace your losses, then Blob warefare is all you will have. The harder it is to replace your losses the less likely you would be willing to risk your ship, and the more the well balanced Alliances will have the advantage. The way to make it so not everyone is flying either a BS, Dread, or Carrier is to keep it hard to replace them. Make it so the hardest thing is to keep flying a BS, not training for it. Team work and diversification should be key. Don't only have Pvp'ers, or Carebears, have the proper mix in your Alliance. The future of this game shouldn't be about the next hard thing to train for, but are you organized well enough to keep flying the best. The well organized Nation "Alliance" should have the advantage. I think CCP is on the right path with this, but may take some time to balance it out. /signed 100% agreed It's very unfortunate that 'exploits', or perhaps let's just call them game mechanical flaws, like mineral compression were allowed enough time to become common practice. I mean.. logistics and maintenance are not meant to be circumvented. They're there for a reason. To make things complicated from a certain point on and curb uncontrolled growth. _________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. -
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.17 03:51:00 - [348] well... there's multiple possibilities: if you just want to cripple logistics - increase volume of the modules (titan mods in particular) if you want to cripple production costs (and increase mineral demand and prices) - lower effects of the prod.eff.skill or bump up the base waste from 1.25 to 1.5 if you want to screw mission looters & ratters aswell - lower effects of scrapmetal repro if you wish to include mission looters and ratters - go ahead with your idea[*]if you want to hurt all refiners on top of that, reduce both 'global' refining skills or debuff all installations as i mentioned earlier, the large alliances don't really care about 20% extra costs to the jump portal thingy - 344:1 result will still make it a great tool to shove those quantities around. only the mineral prices will explode a lil due to demand and logistics will increase a bit ... which will be compensated by the future two-iteron-V-and-a-hoarder=96km¦ in rorqual's ship bay (carrier these days: interon+viator end up below 49k m¦) so, it's all about the mineral price - macro miners, rejoice - putting the gist back into logistics
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.08.17 03:52:00 - [349] well... there's multiple possibilities: if you just want to cripple logistics - increase volume of the modules (titan mods in particular) if you want to cripple production costs (and increase mineral demand and prices) - lower effects of the prod.eff.skill or bump up the base waste from 1.25 to 1.5 if you want to screw mission looters & ratters aswell - lower effects of scrapmetal repro or go ahead with your indiscriminate idea if you want to hurt all refiners on top of that, reduce both 'global' refining skills or debuff all installations as i mentioned earlier, the large alliances don't really care about 20% extra costs to the jump portal thingy - 344:1 result will still make it a great tool to shove those quantities around. only the mineral prices will explode a lil due to demand and logistics will increase a bit ... which will be compensated by the future two-iteron-V-and-a-hoarder=96km¦ in rorqual's ship bay (carrier these days: interon+viator end up below 49k m¦) so, it's all about the mineral price - macro miners, rejoice - putting the gist back into logistics
Tuto Strike	Posted - 2007.08.17 12:12:00 - [350] Originally by: CCP Chronotis ... Low sec 'low end' ore mining we will very much want to make more attractive so trit and pyerite can be obtained locally and personally I have been looking at some possibilities that may be even a little fun like 'blast mining' ... yay! \o/ blast mining FTW! More fun for the miners! Just make sure that blasting a roid will damage the high ends so it gives a puny yield on those ores. \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ /me wants blast mining! /me wants blast mining! /me wants blast mining!

Nietor	Posted - 2007.08.17 13:23:00 - [351] 1) How about taking a look at the mineral composition of things, and adjusting those first. 2)Then, make the size of an item based on the amount of minerals used to make it. 3) After that, restrict the fitting of too large modules at all. A JPG is probably larger than the frigate(or even a cruiser) is to begin with, so why even allow it to be fitted. Make the slots have some sort of size requirement as well as CPU/Grid. For the person that said they wanted to keep it story related, well.. one could just say "The corporations allowing you to use their refineries learned they could make a lot more money by taxing the reprocessing process further". There, RP reason to take that 20%. To the person who said corps/alliances/players will lose money because of a bad investment... well imagine this... I go to the hardware store, and buy a crowbar. I use that crowbar to smash someones face in and they die cuz of it. I get charged with murder and end up spending the rest of my life in jail. Poor investment? Should i get a pass because i used it in a manner other than directed? Maybe the 16 year old cashier at the store should take the fall cuz he/she sold it to me... Or maybe... the store owner, he stocked it to sell after all... I think you get my point. By exploiting (yes i said exploiting) a game mechanic to achieve something you shouldn't be able to, you deserve what you get. I feel no sympathy when CCP changes the rules. I am pretty certain that when they introduced the JPG and/or other capital modules, they did not intend them to be a way of transporting minerals to/from/around 0.0/empire/low-sec. If they realize they made an error, and correct it... too bad to those that were trying to take advantage of the mechanics. I also read somewhere else, that it really doesn't make much sense to mine an ore whose value is 2 isk per unit, when you have ore thats worth 2000 isk per unit in the next asteroid field. I think they should just remove low quality ores from 0.0, as it really makes no sense what-so-ever to mine it. I can mine arkonor for an hour, and buy the 8m trit i need for a raven with isk left over. Well, not quite.... but maybe when i get into a hulk with t2 crystals! I guess there has to be a reason to mine it. Heres a random thought. How about a chance of named loot popping out from those giant Veld roids. Least then, those of us in the drone regions would be able to get some, and the ore would probably get mined a lot more. I know that sounds silly... but it could work, at least in theory. Maybe that roid could jettison a map to a complex, or pirate hideout instead; only good for x amount of time after examined... The maps could be sold, unexamined on the market for treasure hunters to find the loot. Theres a lot of possibilities that could be explored into getting people to mine veldspar in 0.0. I also think it could be fun.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.17 14:33:00 - [352] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Come kali 3 when we will look to add in new low sec methods... Do you mean low sec or 0.0? Please bear in mind they're totally different situations altogether.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.17 14:48:00 - [353] Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab.


CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.17 14:52:00 - [354] Do you mean low sec or 0.0? Please bear in mind they're totally different situations altogether. could be both. We will most likely in weeks ahead after 2.2 is deployed, write a dev blog discussing where we would like to progress mining which will include anything we might want to do with low/null sec and veld mining alongside other areas of focus such as mercoxit for example of stuff we are looking at.

SamuraiJack Caldari Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.08.17 15:22:00 - [355] I'm still getting distinct feeling that CCP hate industrialists and logistics ppl and just want us to spend even more time doing grind. Howabout you try doing major logistics CCP instead of pvping. See how long it takes to do a proper market or a decent logistics chain. Remember about the smaller corperations who are new. Not everyone can field massive groups to run frieghters deep into space. You really want to restrict people to huge allainces or empire only? Its been like this since Exodus... (i know that was suppost to move us all to 0.0... but far too many went to empire instead. Lets not have another clusterfark like that again please). Would love to see how much fun you think it is running pos's and filling markets when you constantly get nerfs like the carrier GSC nerf and the compression nerf. The drone regions are getting better but if you had pulled the compression nerf back when roids were totally broken i think an angry mob would be burning you out of your offices. Kindly think about ALL aspects of the game... not just the "ooh shiny... it explodes" bit. Some of us build and create so you can have your fun. Help us have our fun too. SJ. CLS CEO, Valainloce Executor and Standings Director =-
bobtheminer Deadly Alliance Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.17 15:40:00 - [356] with the Rorqual being aimed at aiding logistics and transporting low end compressed ore upto 0.0 and high end down, would it not be resonable to give it the same jump distance as the carrier rather than the dread, if its supposed to be running up and down the lanes from empire to 0.0 needing loads of jump points really isent gonna help, i can understand why dreads have the shorter jump range but to me any way the Rorqual just screams to have a good jump range if its gonna help with logistics, it shouldent cause more logistics than it will help just setting up all the cyno towers or char's to cyno it about
Chruker	Posted - 2007.08.17 18:29:00 - [357] Edited by: Chruker on 17/08/2007 18:29:59 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. .... With these changes to the advanced lab I'll say that it is no longer worth the extra ISK, unless you are running a POS for just copying. How does 3 copy slots instead of 6 copy slots give it an advantage? If you really want to make it so that the regular mobile is used for ME/PL research, and the new lab is used for copying/invention you should give it 8 copy slots and 4 invention slots. Or even better: Allow us to reconfigure how many slots there are of each type when it the lab is offline. ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi - Speedup IGB table rendering
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.17 21:22:00 - [358] I'd expect that it'd be much more profitable to rent out, at least if alliance copying was fixed. If the current status quo is maintained, the current labs will be more useful. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Tuto Strike	Posted - 2007.08.17 21:28:00 - [359] Hey Chronotis! Cold we use careful placments of bombs to mine whole roids at a time in a low sec? I posted more detail is here Placing bombs. Those bombs could also have tactical use at ships in siege mode or pos warfire Blasting roids! Hehe. Blasting roids! \o/
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:23:00 - [360] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Do you mean low sec or 0.0? Please bear in mind they're totally different situations altogether. could be both.... . Please, first, before you blog about any proposed changes, seperate the two situations in your mind. Lowsec, to all intents and purposes, is empire space. It should have higher rewards, for sure, but it should still be the same, dependant NPC empire space. It is not a place for players to be building logistical empires, it is merely a riskier, more rewarding NPC space. 0.0 space on the other hand should be capable of being totally independant from NPC empire space, however, as we all know, this is not possible due to the imbalance between the values of low/high-end ores. Even if their values were comparable, there is simply no way (currently, even post-Rorqual) to mine enough low-end mins to support any kind of 0.0 infrastructure.

Heffy	Posted - 2007.08.18 07:45:00 - [361] I think the biggest problem in nul sec is mexallon. You can get trit/pyer from mining several of the high end ores, but really the only ore to get mex from is gneiss, which is kinda hard to find.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.18 11:49:00 - [362] Originally by: Vincent Law Edited by: Vincent Law on 15/08/2007 12:44:26 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Come kali 3 when we will look to add in new low sec methods of mining and the demand for low end ore switches to local suppliers, alongside the compressed ore secondary market that will mature through time to a good future where empires can be built in null sec from the materials near them. This secondary market will probably be run by the same macro miners that choose to farm ice and ore in highsec already. I'm sure absolutely no one will be willing to manage the compression process of a full load of veldspar (see Apocalytica Insomnia's post) and as a result will turn to the market as a source of their compressed low-ends. Everyone prepare to see fleets of Rorquals sitting in lowsec poses compressing these minerals to cater to those of us that don't have the time to run the time sink that eve is becoming. That is a choice of low sec/0.0 people. If they don't want to mine what they need, and don't want to pay reasonably for it, the only other solution is to accept macrominers in your organizations. But don't speake like someone was forcing you at gunpoint to accept them. Simply you choose to harbor and protect them instead of building a player driven logistic structure.
SkuVV	Posted - 2007.08.18 12:31:00 - [363] Guys, i see that compression ratios 40:1 for low ore and 20:1 for high ore. Somebody know about refining penalty? etc pack non-compressed ore equal 1 compressed??
Sollz	Posted - 2007.08.19 02:02:00 - [364] The new ship is for 00 players how about some thing for high sec miners too? like small industrial core equiped on industrial ship that will allow a small compression ratio like 5:1 or 2:1 would be nice
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.19 09:37:00 - [365] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. Chronotis can you please advise on whether copying has been fixed for alliance members? It really is an important point. If it hasn't been fixed, please just come clean so I don't get my hopes up for nothing. If it has been fixed (or will be fixed by this time) then <3 to the devs. Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:31:00 - [366] Originally by: Ricdic Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. Chronotis can you please advise on whether copying has been fixed for alliance members? It really is an important point. If it hasn't been fixed, please just come clean so I don't get my hopes up for nothing. If it has been fixed (or will be fixed by this time) then <3 to the devs. It is very important, so I will support this request of informations.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.19 12:34:00 - [367] I think the adv. lab shouldn't be called advanced anymore. Probably should just say 'Copy Lab' or some crap like that. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.19 12:40:00 - [368] After reading many pages of this thread, I've also come to the conclusion that the ore compression thing is not so good if low-ends in 0.0 are left as they are. I would agree more with the people that are saying that maybe a new veld ore needs to be seeded in 0.0 or something to up the amount you can get out there. Ofc, I'm no master in the world of economics. I agree that the jump portal generator thing is crap - nerf it. But you'd need to make allowances in other areas. I mean (this will come across as condescending, but it's really not meant to be at all), it is still a game. Making things ultra-tedious isn't a good thing. Having said all that - we haven't actually used the Ore cap ship yet, anyway. Not properly, I mean. We could be wrong. But some of the math in this thread is hard to argue with, imvho. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.19 13:11:00 - [369] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. I see you killed half the slots and still keep the price and fuel penalty vs the normal LAB. So if this new advanced LAB is tailored for invention, why does it have ME slots? Or did you just give us a confirmation that the ME level actually do affect the invention chances? Will you lower the amount of invention slots on the basic LAB to tailor it more towards normal research? Signature approved by Eldo
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.19 13:29:00 - [370] Originally by: Chruker Edited by: Chruker on 17/08/2007 18:29:59 Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. .... With these changes to the advanced lab I'll say that it is no longer worth the extra ISK, unless you are running a POS for just copying. How does 3 copy slots instead of 6 copy slots give it an advantage? If you really want to make it so that the regular mobile is used for ME/PL research, and the new lab is used for copying/invention you should give it 8 copy slots and 4 invention slots. Or even better: Allow us to reconfigure how many slots there are of each type when it the lab is offline. Thank goodness - 3 Copy slots instead of 6 is much more sensible - and it even gets an extra time bonus. Yes - 3 slots is more than enough and certainly will double, or even triple the value of Research POS set up to take advantage. It would be great if ME/PE slots could be rented out to the public - I don't see why that has been impossible to implement. And if alliance copy jobs could only be delivered to the lab itself, that would be enough for anyone.

Rafein	Posted - 2007.08.19 13:43:00 - [371] Originally by: Franga I think the adv. lab shouldn't be called advanced anymore. Probably should just say 'Copy Lab' or some crap like that. QFT. It costs 50 million isk more, uses more POS resources, and provides less overall slots than a "basic" lab. it needs it costs/fittings cut, an renamed as copy lab.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.19 20:46:00 - [372] Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Stuff about the lab and whatever ... then I saw his sig ... My goodness Jessica Alba is an attractive and well built young woman. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.

CCP Chronotis	Posted - 2007.08.21 08:56:00 - [373] Originally by: Ricdic Chronotis can you please advise on whether copying has been fixed for alliance members? It really is an important point. If it hasn't been fixed, please just come clean so I don't get my hopes up for nothing. If it has been fixed (or will be fixed by this time) then <3 to the devs. this has not been fixed for patch 2.2 which is all I can confirm at this stage.

Goodlookin Gus Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.08.21 10:23:00 - [374] Edited by: Goodlookin Gus on 21/08/2007 10:26:51 nerfing the adv labs even before they come out is not good. :( copy slots have been in low supply for very long time. and instead of just increasing them on normal labs. You made an adv lab that was awsome at first. 5me 3pe 6copy and 4invent. 0.85 time. but now you do "nerf" it down to 2me 0pe 3copy ?? less slots that the normal ones. and its still called advanced labs? i been doing industrial and pos researching for an long time(research service short time). this adv. lab will now not be great. to be and adv lab it should be alot better then the normal ones. yes 5me and 6 copy might be bit much. but why not just have adv that gave 4me 3pe 4copy 4 invention? the new labs will kill the me research and that just not an needed "nerf" I am starting to agree more and more of upset industrialist. YOU DONT LOVE US ANYMORE :( this have also been the same on alot of the other mmo i been playing. boost combat loot or otherwise. and take away industiral side or make it even harder then it is. my vote on the adv lab nerf. but i will adapt as normal. just had to let some frustation out but i still love the game :) High sec research service avalible. join channel viking research for more info Eve mail is an great game tool if i aint online
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.21 12:44:00 - [375] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. The lab now has 3 copy (0.65* time mod), 2 ME (0.75* time mod) and 2 invention (0.5* times mod). The advantage being it significantly increases the alternatives for copy slots and research specific to invention which finds a niche for both types of lab. Ok, I have done some math with the new numbers above. The unit I will use slot/h, as in equal to 1h research at a NPC station. Copying Standard LAB - 1 slot, 0.75 multiplier = 1.33 slot/h Advanced LAB - 3 slots, 0.65 multiplier = 4.62 slot/h Invention Standard LAB - 5 slots, 0.75 multiplier = 6.667 slot/h Advanced LAB - 2 slots, 0.50 multiplier = 4 slot/h Material Efficiency Standard LAB - 3 slots, 0.75 multiplier = 4 slot/h Advanced LAB - 2 slots, 0.75 multiplier = 2.67 slot/h Speed difference with adv vs standard LAB: Copying: 3.46x Invention: 0.6x Material Efficiancy: 0.4x With the BPCs passing through the lab at 4.62 slot/h (6.15 with research V) and the invention running at 4 slot/h it is almost back to the original 6 copy 4 inv design. The only difference is that the skill and time bonus are removed in the process. Signature approved by Eldo
Two step Amarr Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.21 14:07:00 - [376] Edited by: Two step on 21/08/2007 14:07:20 Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Invention Standard LAB - 5 slots, 0.75 multiplier = 6.667 slot/h Advanced LAB - 2 slots, 0.50 multiplier = 4 slot/h Standard labs are also .5 multiplier, not .75
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.21 15:33:00 - [377] Originally by: Two step Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Invention Standard LAB - 5 slots, 0.75 multiplier = 6.667 slot/h Advanced LAB - 2 slots, 0.50 multiplier = 4 slot/h Standard labs are also .5 multiplier, not .75 Thanks, it's been a while since I used a mobile lab. Signature approved by Eldo
Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.22 05:29:00 - [378] Wait :( I was looking forward to my 6 copy slots :( Standard labs would have been great for ME/Invention, and the advanced ones would have been great for copying where the extra time wouldn't have been an issue, as it would have allowed me to totally abandon copy research @ stations. Now with only 3 :( . Also due to the fact that the invetion materials need to be in the lab itself (ESPECIALLY THE INTERFACE) the more invention slots in the one lab the better. As it stands I can't invent with over 5 slots atm remotely as I would need to move the decryptor to the next lab. If you remove the need for these materials to be in the lab, then great 2 invention slots isn't that bad. TBH I'd still like to see a large tower somehow end up with being able to fit : 20 invention slots (best multiplier), 20-30 copy slots (even 1x multiplier is ok I guess), ?? PE - not an issue, 15-20 ME slots. The rest is icing. I'm not sure we need labs that just alter the balance slightly, I think we need labs that drastically shift the focus in one direction or another (if people want to invent/me research / pe research / copy etc. The PRIME reason for this is the issue of materials, want to make T2 copies or research some of the more recent T1 BPOs you need materials for the jobs, for invention, you need materials, for ME/PE you can usually just survive from the station. It would be GREAT to have all my invention materials for 10-20 slots in 1-2 labs so that the remote skills could be useful again. It would be great to pick up all my copies from the same 1-2 labs. (although I guess it would be somewhat handy to have the copied BPs output to the invention lab, at the moment they get output to 10 different labs that each need to be 'cleared' of copies.) I'm still wondering what happened to the original idea of 50% more labs for 20% more cost. There were very few ways that could have worked out badly.
Nesa Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.22 05:39:00 - [379] Also what kind of feedback leads to a nerf on that scale ? Is being happy with something considered negative feedback? If we're too happy it must be overpowered and then nerfed? IMO the number of ME/PE slots currently in labs is fine, the number of invention slots are fine. Maybe you could change the existing labs to 6 ME / 3 PE / 1 Copy and the new ones to 6 Copy / 5 invention / 1 ME or something (very loose suggestion). Obviously those doing the copying are those that want to do invention, and those doing ME/PE may just be building. TBH I'd LOVE a lab that took twice as much fitting and could give me 10 copy / 10 invention. The micro-managment with a dozen labs becomes abit much (which lab did that copy output to, which lab do I need these minerals in etc etc.). Higher fittings also means less individual structures which has to be easier (although not much) on the server etc. Since one char can fairly easily use 10 slots at once, it would be much easier to have a lab per character (for copying / invention etc).
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.08.22 09:49:00 - [380] Originally by: Nesa TBH I'd LOVE a lab that took twice as much fitting and could give me 10 copy / 10 invention. The micro-managment with a dozen labs becomes abit much (which lab did that copy output to, which lab do I need these minerals in etc etc.). Higher fittings also means less individual structures which has to be easier (although not much) on the server etc. Since one char can fairly easily use 10 slots at once, it would be much easier to have a lab per character (for copying / invention etc). For the micro management issue (which is annoying) it would be easier to use small/medium/large labs: Small = current lab Medium = 3 x current lab slots, 4 x fitting Large = 7 x current lab slots, 10 x fitting Another solution would be to add a silo system for labs so all output/input materials can be placed in a central location. Instead of this Adv lab I would love to have an Intensive Lab with say with 1 copy slot with a 0.2x bonus (5slot/h) and 2 invention slots with a 0.2x bonus (10slot/h) at the cost of 100% higher fitting requirements. Signature approved by Eldo

Goodlookin Gus Gallente Viking Research and Production space weaponry and trade	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:37:00 - [381] when is rev 2.2 due? High sec research service avalible. join channel viking research for more info join my mailing list. viking mail for puplic contracts max run list. Eve mail is an great game tool if i aint o
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.23 19:24:00 - [382] Originally by: Goodlookin Gus when is rev 2.2 due? The implication was that is was going to be next week (Tues?) - however, as it's now late Thurs and no hint or Patch Notes, then I suspect it's not quite ready.
Solid Slade	Posted - 2007.08.23 20:57:00 - [383] Can CCP spend some time fixing bugs like how the overview goes blank sometimes or fleet structure disappears? Or how about optimizing the client/server so that large fleet battles don't have a 25% ship loss due to lag? Something that acually ruins a player's gaming experience? Who really cares if a 1000m3 module can be refined to produce 430k m3 of minerals? That is a meta-game level issue. There are serious in-game issues, ACTUAL BUGS, that detract from the suspension of disbelief. What about de-sync that also occurs and causes ppl to loose ships? And why can't the ore cap ship mine? I don't consider deploying 5 harvester drones mining. I can do that in a combat ship. A carrier can out-mine this mining-specific waste of isk.
Nikerym Lestroy GALAXIAN RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.24 03:32:00 - [384] regarding the lack of low ends in 0.0.... the only way you are going to make low end mining even be considered in nullsec (pyerite and mex for example.... there's plenty of Trit mining in low sec... specially with the currnet amount of titan's who have nothing better to do....) is to create greater yields based on sec value. instead of only having 3 kinda of veldspar, have 13 1.0-0.5 Veld, Condensed veld, dense veld 0.5-0.1 Veld changes to Highly Condenced Veld (20% increased yield) 0.0- -0.2 Veld changes to Extreamly Dense Veld (30% increased yield) -0.2 - -0.5 Veld changes to Dark Veld (50% increased yield) -0.5 - -0.7 Veld changes to Condensed Dark Veld (70% increased yield) -0.7 - -1.0 veld changes to Dense Dark Veld (100% increased yield) of course all these values are random and would need to be adjusted for balance, however untill you make it so that it's possible to mine X amount of cash worth of Veld = same amount of Ark/Crok/Bist (or at least ALOT more similar) in the same amount of time.... noone will ever bother to mine veld currently, numbers look like this 1 hour mining with 2 hulks and a hauler = about 125mil worth of Crokite/Arkonor/Bistot (must be done in 0.0 with Full risk to losing ship) 1 hour mining with 2 hulks and a hauler = about 20Mil worth of Veldspar/scordite (can be done in empire with near 0 risk of losing ship) why would anyone want to mine low returns for high risk? the mining game is in a way identical to an investment.... actually it IS an investment... it's your investment of time. your putting in X amount of time... you want to get Max return for Minimal risk... and the higher the risk, the greater the return you expect. untill this fundemental issue of Risk:Reward ratio is met. Low end mining will NEVER happen in 0.0 (at least not to the kind of scale needed for serious production) and people will continue to run freighters/carriers with lowends) later, Nikerym
Windryder Caldari New Fnord Industries Black Scope Project	Posted - 2007.08.24 11:25:00 - [385] Dear CCP people, Do you want us to do invention or not? Even low-sec station copy slots are running 20-30 day queues. With ONE copy slot and FIVE invention slots (given to us for free, thank-you) in a lab those of us invested in POS-hood are clamouring for more copy slots - SIGNIFICANTLY more. ONE is barely enough to keep invention happening in fits and starts, let alone trying to make the POS cost-neutral by selling COPIES of researched BPOs - you know, how most of us managed to afford our very first Battleship after mining and mission running for yonks? We run a large tower with the maximum 14 labs. This gives us 14 copy slots. They are flat-out most of the time and our corp is barely in double-digit membership, less if exclude member-alts! The "Advanced Lab" as it was, was a great idea... BECAUSE you got so many copy slots but with SLOWER speeds. It was a great DILEMMA you had created... now erased. And speaking of which - why the heck in this age of ships with MODULAR fits, can't we have labs that operate the same way? Why can't we buy the empty POS structure and then FIT IT OUT WITH THE LABS WE WANT???? This is how real-life laboratories have worked for centuries... why this concept hasn't survived to the 250th century is a story I'd love to hear :) \\'
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:51:00 - [386] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Originally by: Ricdic Chronotis can you please advise on whether copying has been fixed for alliance members? It really is an important point. If it hasn't been fixed, please just come clean so I don't get my hopes up for nothing. If it has been fixed (or will be fixed by this time) then <3 to the devs. this has not been fixed for patch 2.2 which is all I can confirm at this stage. Thanks Chronotis for your response.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.08.24 13:02:00 - [387] A few of the ideas tossed around in Nyphur's thread in Features&Ideas, summarised for this thread, not necessarily in the order they were discussed over there. If you want the full discution about this approach, here's where it started. ___ 1. The issue of mineral compression Mineral compression should not exist beyond a very moderate rate, if any at all. Once minerals are in refined mineral form, there should be no way to (significantly) decrease their volume. The only form of transport of "compressed minerals" should be in the form of compressed ore (from the Rorqual industrial core lines). That can be acheived primarily through adjustments to each individual mineral volume AND adjustment of "worst offending" modules (compression ratio wise). Where does it say all refined minerals have to be 0.01 cubic meters ? Lowends could have a lower volume, highends could have a higher volume per unit. This change will be needed if you don't wish to "upset" the current volume of existing REFINABLE items much. 2. Mining as primary source of minerals. NPC-sold refineables should either go away, or be available in short supply (heavy price increase in case of massive purchase). Non-manufacturable NPC-sold items should not be refineable (I'm looking at you, coupling array). Loot from missions and/or belt ratting should be decreased significantly. T1 unnamed modules should not even exist in the loot tables, and don't increase the drop rates of named mods. Drone compound drops should also suffer a serious decrease in amount. To compensate (potential income level), hike up salvage material drop rates SIGNIFICANTLY. 3. New mining system : variable yields and mixed-ore asteroids. First, significantly reduce the number of asteroids per grid, make them larger and holding more ore units. Ideally, you'd have only few of them per grid, at significant distances from eachother (warpable-to distances between each pair). At an extreme, you could even have a single one per grid would be ok, with other asteroids only in neighbouring grids, randomly distributed for dozens of grids in each direction. You then either have to manually search the grids (fast ship, MWD, fly around a lot, bookmark and come back to mine), or be able to locate them via some form of scanning (either via probes, or new onboard scanner option enabled when you have an asteroid scanner fited, or any other means). THE IDEA now however is this : there will only be ONE subtype of each ore in existance. Yes, no more "concentrated veldspar" and "dense veldspar", you will just have "Veldspar". HOWEVER, you no longer get a fixed amount of Veldspar per cycle out of a Veldspar asteroid (or any other ore). Each asteroid gets a (random within a certain range) "yield multiplier" number, and your miner's actual yield is multiplied by that value. You can find out what the value is if you use an asteroid scanner, it will display alongside the remaining ore units count. What this basically means is that you can have each ore type in any security rating system, the only thing you need to adjust is the multiplier value according to that system's security rating. EXAMPLE1: x0.02 Arkonor in 1.0 systems, 50 times less profitable to mine it as x1.00 Arkonor in deep 0.0 EXAMPLE2: x8.00 Veldspar in 0.0 systems, 8 times more profitable as x1.00 Veldspar in 1.0 systems No more local shortages. Also, you no longer necessarily have a single ore type in an asteroid, you could have several types of ore in the same rock. An idea is that normal miners will extract some of each ore (adjusted for individual multipliers), modulated ones will extract more of your "target" ore but also some of the rest, while deep core miners will ONLY extract the ore you want. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Minmatar096773	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:04:00 - [388] Originally by: SamuraiJack I'm still getting distinct feeling that CCP hate industrialists and logistics ppl and just want us to spend even more time doing grind. Howabout you try doing major logistics CCP instead of pvping. See how long it takes to do a proper market or a decent logistics chain. Remember about the smaller corperations who are new. Not everyone can field massive groups to run frieghters deep into space. You really want to restrict people to huge allainces or empire only? Its been like this since Exodus... (i know that was suppost to move us all to 0.0... but far too many went to empire instead. Lets not have another clusterfark like that again please). Would love to see how much fun you think it is running pos's and filling markets when you constantly get nerfs like the carrier GSC nerf and the compression nerf. The drone regions are getting better but if you had pulled the compression nerf back when roids were totally broken i think an angry mob would be burning you out of your offices. Kindly think about ALL aspects of the game... not just the "ooh shiny... it explodes" bit. Some of us build and create so you can have your fun. Help us have our fun too. If it was so easy everyone would do it on a second account and your profits would plummet.
Gane Green Gallente Digital Foundry	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:42:00 - [389] I knew that the advance labs sounded verry nice. Now that you have changed the slotting on them. you should change the name of the advance mobile lab to just copy mobile lab. There is nothing advanced about it anymore. With this pre nerf trend hitting the game with new stuff. I dont get a smile on my face when new content is hitting eve. Why because its usless content. The new labs are going to be as popular as the 20 mil pre nerfed bombs for stealth bombers. Go with the old stats. jack up the price make it a massive isk sink and risk. Heck make it a lowsec item only so they get blown up for all I care. Its about like holding a carrot infront of a mule then giving it the carrot that was dangled infront of it 3 months ago. Im tired of rotten carrots. New content to me is stuff that gives you a smile. Not pre neffed to death. If yall dont know what im talking about in my rant look at the dev blog closer. they changed all the slots on the lab. :(
Lougra Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:00:00 - [390] So far the issues in mining society are too many. Most common are: Ore quantity: Mining profession has become so powerful which even a full spawned roid of veldspar canÆt stand for more than few cycles under the power of a hulk. Asteroids. Are too small and especially in empire where in many cases asteroids has 16 ore units left Cargo capacity: I never understood why barges have so small cargo capacity. Supposed to be ships which are for a specific and only purpose. Mining. Not fighting nor defending their selves. Just mine. And for the name of balance, remove the mining ability from ships greater than frigates. Ore compression: So far corporations/players using this method to provide ore where needed. They building specific items (according to the kind of ore they need to transfer) which will be reprocessed in a station. Ore transfer used for two reasons. For sale, or for manufacturing in places where ore is limited. POS refining arrays: Waste factor is too much (25%) with perfect skills. Refining quantities and timers are low/high without any logical reason. Possible solutions: Ore quantity: Bigger asteroids. Minor fixes can be: Roid scanner (already exist), mining cycle indicator, blast mining (or what else is going to be named). *But in the case of blast mining the same problem still exist. Cargo capacity. A possible solution is to increase the capacity in barges 5-6 times (an example). Ore compression Rorqual. By this CCP planning to solve the ore compression by compress the ore itself. This will solve in a way the refining procedure in a POS but not the actual problem. And the whole investment it doesnÆt solve any problem except a small one. According to these problems one viable solution can be done without much of programming. Compress the asteroids. What I mean by that. Lest say that a mining striper (including skills) can get 1000m3 of veldspar per cycle. If that amount reduced to 100m3 but when refined it gives equal quantity of tritanium like 1000m3 we have a solution to all above problems. Roids becomes bigger, cargo becomes bigger, and ore compression issue will become worthless while refining arrays will be able to refine bigger quantities of ore in same time. Any better ideas? Carebear is the surname that you got, if you enjoy to play eve, in other way than the rest want YOU to play it.

Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:48:00 - [391] Edited by: Cyberman Mastermind on 27/08/2007 15:50:02 Originally by: Lougra And for the name of balance, remove the mining ability from ships greater than frigates. Too harsh. Just change it so that Mining Laser Upgrades won't work as good on non-mining ships. For example, having a higher CPU penalty, but giving mining ships a role bonus, reducing the penalty to the current values, or even lower. It's ridiculous that a beginning miner has to read "You have to decide whether you plan to use an Apoc, with good defense or a mining barge, with low defense. The yield will be almost the same, unless you progress to Exhumers...". [ edit ]("...or put in a dozen MLUs, giving you even more yield than the best T1 mining ship made specially for mining.") -------------------------------------------------- I'm a rich person. How I know? I can afford to be a miner.
Una Versa Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:58:00 - [392] So after all this, and the apparent backing off by CCP, what was the point of stealth nerfing the coupling arrays? I'm sure some folks got boned on that one. Why was that necessary?
Mashie Saldana Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2007.09.05 09:45:00 - [393] Originally by: Una Versa So after all this, and the apparent backing off by CCP, what was the point of stealth nerfing the coupling arrays? I'm sure some folks got boned on that one. Why was that necessary? It caused an artificial price ceiling on trit and funnily enough it's the second time it is getting nerfed as it before that caused a price ceiling for pyerite. I doubt NPC goods ever was intended to be a source for minerals. Now people will have to mine the 1.3b trit needed for a supercap instead of getting it from the local NPC station. Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
ResearchBot 9	Posted - 2007.09.10 18:08:00 - [394] Originally by: Chruker Or even better: Allow us to reconfigure how many slots there are of each type when it the lab is offline. Chruker ftw! How 'bout it, CCP?
ResearchBot 9	Posted - 2007.09.10 18:15:00 - [395] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Update regarding Advanced Mobile Lab The original concept has changed following feedback. Feedback from whom? The T2 cartels? This screws the inventors who were finally going to catch a break, and further feeds the T2 cartels. This is a truly crappy nerf. End of story.
Cyberus Caldari Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 15:43:00 - [396] My own opinion is from my own experiance in game and i can insure you about 1 thing for sure. There is almost never low end ore will be mined so much in 0.0 space as the high end ones so long it will not give same profit as the high end ore. simply because no one want spend 1 hour of mining/game time to mine asteriod of veldspar and get lets say for example 10m isk reward in that used time so long there is an bistot asteriod next to this veldspar what will you give 5 times so much isk in exact same use of time/gameplay.
Gajanina	Posted - 2007.10.03 22:37:00 - [397] I have a question can Rorqual dock to station?
Baulath	Posted - 2007.11.05 11:02:00 - [398] I'd also like to know if the Rorqual can dock and also can it be used in high sec? Baulath
Fay Gallas Freelancer Union Unaffiliated	Posted - 2007.11.05 11:17:00 - [399] Yes it can dock, and no it cant be moved into high sec. Contact me, if you would like to buy one. --------------------------------------------------- This is blood for blood and by the gallon. These are the old days, the bad days, the all-or-nothing days. They're back!
Demjon	Posted - 2007.11.15 19:11:00 - [400] I am still confused, What is so hard about taking a freighter sized ship and slapping a intensive refining array to its back? You take all the mining bonuses you get from all the exhumers and attach it to this vessel so it can mine anything it comes across. Give it a jump drive with a short range (so we can't use it for hauling). Make capital strip miners that can target roids at 100km to 200km (like the capital tractor beam). Give it shields like the rorqual and resistance like a hulk and call it a day! The capital strip miners can mine anything at the same speed as any of the exhumers making it equal to them not supperior. Keep your 3 hour timer on the refining array and give it a cargo bay big enough to hold the next cycle worth of ore, say (200,000 m3 maybe alittle bigger just to hold jump drive fuel). Then give it 200,000 m3 m3 more as a catch for the refined minerals. Thats a total of 600,000 m3 for all you keeping score (thats smaller than a freighter fyi). Capital strip miner: 1. long range 100-200 km 2. can mine all ore types (mercoxit, ice, everything) at the same rate as its exhumer counterpart. 3. skill required inclued all requirements to use t2 ice miners, deep core, modulated 4. must have all ore refining skills to lvl 4 (equivelant to t2 mining crystals) 5. maybe a 1% bonus to yeild per lvl (if you feel generous) Capital mining Barge: 1. All bonuses that are included on all mining bargs and Exhumers 2. Jump drive (short range) 3. replace all corp hangers and maintenance bays with cargo m3 (one separate cargo bay for refined minerals). 4. 5% bonus per lvl to refining array efficency (up to perfect refines) 5. at lvl 5 the refinery will be able to keep up with supply of ore from the capital strip miners and drones. (refinery only works with ore fyi) 6. Very long skill path this vessel (Mining Barge lvl 5, Exhumer lvl 5, Captial ships lvl 3, Captial Barge lvl 1, all ore refining skills to lvl 4 plus incentive to go to lvl 5, Jump drive operation lvl 1, Ice processing lvl 4, Deep core mining lvl 5, Capital strip miner lvl 1) you get the picture. The bottom line is this ship mines and refines at the same rate that exist in its exhumer and refining array counterparts. The bonus to the miner is he can mine a whole belt of asteroids without repositioning too much. Refine his ore on the spot. Stay out in areas of space that done have stations or POS's for long periods of time. Use his jump drive to escape if needed. Isn't going to destroy the mineral market because he mines and refines at what are currently excepted rates.



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