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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 10 post(s)
Hamalicious Middle Finger Technology	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:17:00 - [61] Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic.
tornpain	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:18:00 - [62] Edited by: tornpain on 12/08/2007 03:20:59 Originally by: Luaren Avidius This nerf has a LOT of collateral damage. Ratters, Missioners, Recyclers, Mineral Compression Specialists, 0.0 Mineral Markets, virtually anyone who loathes doing freighter runs because their mini empire needs trit. Please reconsider this nerf, CCP. I have to agree with Luaren here. I'm a little confused why CCP thinks that 'fixing' mineral compression is so important...they want everyone using jump portals and freighters instead? Originally by: Hamalicious Just adding my voice to the chorus of disapproval to the refining nerf on select Mods. If they want people to stop hauling "Hi compression items" make the dam things BIGGER in volume = FIXED! Fix the dam ratios of the items, not the end refining process I could live with that. An extra 20% wastage is just plain idiotic. I have to say, adjusting volumes seems like a much more elegant solution. It seems logical if things like jump portal generators were as big as something like, say, the capital jump bridge array...
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:22:00 - [63] If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:23:00 - [64] Given the amount of logistics required, was it really a problem that I had figured out a way to stuff approximately a titan and a half worth of mins into a single carrier run? So are you going to enable me to repackage my JPG BPO's and sell them on the market for 0.01 isk less than the NPC's? Otherwise, I guess I see a forum auction in my future. What a useless, completely-unneeded change. By the way, gang links still don't work when you're in warp, and still use 50-100 more PG than is reasonable. But I suppose changing a flag on a single group of 15 modules is harder than coding a different set of refine outputs for 170 items? MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression!
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:25:00 - [65] Originally by: murder one If anything, this change will make mining mins in highsec even more lucrative for the ISK farmers. This can be solved by removing 50% of the minerals from high sec belts, and moving them all to low sec. Exactly, if CCP doesn't do anything with belts as well then they'll have dozens of hulk macros in every belt within the month. It's like they haven't thought it through at all.
Mestoth Minmatar Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:26:00 - [66] Addit one: just saw this link: Rorqualhttp://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=568534&page=11#301 which gives me some more figures: 40-1 ratio for low ends. Veldospar in the cargo bay once compressed (and assuming you dont fill the rest of the spare spaced and corp bay and stuff..just cargo bay). 20Km3 X 40... 800,000...so essentially a freighters worth of dense Veld:...4 ravens worth... Oh ah Wow....and it will take FOUR people between 2.6-6.4 or whatever hours to fill. As i said previously; Nice ship, ABSOLOUTLY USELESS if there is no trit or pyerite available!
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:43:00 - [67] Originally by: Seramyr l'Ethia Now that encryption skillbooks are being seeded, will there be an alternate source of income added to magnetometric exploration sites? They specifically said Encryption skillbooks would be excluded in the devblog. I won't comment too much on the compression nerf, but I have a a question. Why did you choose this specific nerf, what reasons to choose it over other possible nerfs to compression? What does it accomplish that increasing the volume of the affected items, shifting their construction requirements more toward high-ends, or otherwise tweaking their stats would not? It's probably even less work to go through those mods and tweak the stats to make em bigger, or composed of different stuff. Eh, at least the two dozen Passive Targeter BPOs I bought to research and sell were dirt cheap. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Montaire Lacedaemon. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:50:00 - [68] I see a lot of people bieng upset about mineral compression getting hurt. Keeping in mind that I am a serious hardcore 0.0 logistics officer, I love these changes. Mineral compression was basicly a completly broken work-around. It got around existing game mechanics in a way that was badly abused. Moving minerals around is not supposed to be easy. Its supposed to take freighters and haulers to do so. Ever see all the trucks running on the roads, or the trains - those are moving things. Logistics is a big deal and frankly right now its too easy. So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. And Motivated Profit said "I can move a titan and half of mins with one carrier" --- This is so ludicrous that it borders on insanity. (Although my shares are probably going to get a hit) You shouldnt be able to do those things. Just because you've been able to borderline-exploit a broken mechanic for months doesnt mean that the mechanic shouldnt be fixed. Frankly the ease at which so many mins could be moved with such little risk was somthing I allways felt was wrong with EVE. Supply lines are CRITICAL, one of the most important things a real general has to deal with is getting his troops ammo, food and water. Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. Im VERY glad of these changes, and I think they will make eve a deeper, richer experience.
Darpz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:53:00 - [69] Originally by: Montaire So now instead of moving TRIT your going to move Compressed Veld, at probably a pretty damn decent compression ratio. so where does this veld come from? no one mines veld in 0.0 or even lowsec. I mean who would you get more trit rating than mining veld and you make more isk per hour mining anthing else. only people who mine veld are people in highsec where the ore cap ship can't go anyway so you won't see that compressed. this would be a valid argument if ore cap ships offerd some LARGE bonus to lowend mining but it doesn't.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:07:00 - [70] Originally by: Montaire Logistics should be a very legit target in alliance warfare and they havent been partly because mineral compression works so well. Its easy to get what you need out to super-deep 0.0 and build what you want with relative ease and immunity. And without ever having to mine at all. This will not make anyone mine any more trit than they currently are. The logistics routes will still be practically invulnerable carriers, with some jump bridging, but now jumping mods with a 20% loss on refine. The useless ORE ship? It can transport maybe 2 tier 2 battleships worth of trit in compressed veldspar, after you've spent hours wasting expensive stront compressing it outside some station in low-sec(assuming you didn't get bumped off the dock point by a nano ship, in which case your 2bn ship just died) after having it freightered in from your macro mining alts in high sec. Oh and actually jumping the ORE ship any noteworthy distance into 0.0 will cost you around 30m in isotopes, minimum. And now I'm just talking about the trit. As you can see, the ore ship is, as is, completely useless and I'm not sure if even CCP thinks anyone will even build one. Actually, this is another nerf to the smaller corps and alliances since the major players will just jump bridge 2 dozen freighter alts with their titans and call it a day.

Bubble Jet	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:30:00 - [71] And I thought CCP was doing good at making this game fun. Nevermind. This will be the final blow to EVE. You're absolutely killing off the ability to move low end minerals. The ORE capital ship is basically useless, except to only mine arkonor with. It is no way comparable with the current ability to compress minerals.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 04:34:00 - [72] Alright, ran the numbers on what compressions the compressed ores net you over just basic minerals. Assumption was that anything you can get in a highsec belt was to be 40-1 compression over base ore and everything else 20-1. Veldspar: 12-1 Scordite: 10-1 Pyroxeres: 4.14-1 Plagioclase: 3.51-1 Omber: 0.98-1 Kernite: 1.29-1 Jaspet 0.26-1 Hemorphite 0.12-1 Hedbergite 0.15-1 Gneiss 0.09-1 Dark Ochre 0.06-1 Crokite 0.07-1 Spodumain 0.05-1 Bistot 0.04-1 Arkanor 0.05-1 Mercoxit 0.01-1 However, that's a hell of a lot better than their unprocessed forms. Seems only the low-ends actually get compressed to smaller than the minerals they'll refine to. Now there's only one question: where are we gonna get all this Veldspar, and will compressing empire veldspar and jumping it out be more profitable than just eating the loss on Passive Targeters (20-1 Compression postnerf)? -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Qlanth Caldari Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:05:00 - [73] I just wanted to throw this in: As a person who flies a lot of ships in 0.0 space and loses them frequently, it is already difficult enough to keep up my income and pilot ships for battles that we need to win. With the introduction of more expensive ships because of this change, and the drop in ISK to be made from refining rat loot because of the same change, the ability for a person to field bigger ships is going to be even more difficult. The Rorqual will be able to hold something like 19 million Tritanium, not even enough to build 3 battleships. Not to mention that it will only be able to do this once people have actually acquired these ships (1-2 months after the release?). This is a terrible, terrible, decision. I do not understand why anyone would make their successful game harder and more frustrating. The fact that people stick with this game through the crippling lag of fleet warfare, and the changes you keep introducing to make this game more and more difficult (read: carrier nerf) really testifies to the incredible power and pull this game has on your customers. Please do not ruin 0.0 life for those of us who enjoy the large scale engagements and PvP. Listen to what these people are saying, and realize that it only makes things worse.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:12:00 - [74] Edited by: Yuki Nagato on 12/08/2007 05:12:29 I hope CCP listens to the complaints and realize that this kind of stuff is what keeps 0.0 alive. Making things boring or more tedious will not make the game more interesting. Adhering to your 'vision' of the game might not make people like it more. We're not 'whining.' This will make life much harder in 0.0 space. After this nerf, there will be no viable way to get lowend minerals into 0.0 space, even with the capital mining ship and it's ore compression capabilities. Freighter runs aren't an option in 0.0 in most cases even with a Jump Bridge network, and it will not enrich the game if you start forcing people to do them because your 'vision' of EVE conflicts with how things have been done since almost the beginning.
Scavok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:19:00 - [75] This will do nothing but make the game more tedious.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:22:00 - [76] Edited by: MotherMoon on 12/08/2007 05:22:30 Originally by: Qlanth I just wanted to throw this in: As a person who flies a lot of ships in 0.0 space and loses them frequently, it is already difficult enough to keep up my income and pilot ships for battles that we need to win. With the introduction of more expensive ships because of this change, and the drop in ISK to be made from refining rat loot because of the same change, the ability for a person to field bigger ships is going to be even more difficult. The Rorqual will be able to hold something like 19 million Tritanium, not even enough to build 3 battleships. Not to mention that it will only be able to do this once people have actually acquired these ships (1-2 months after the release?). This is a terrible, terrible, decision. I do not understand why anyone would make their successful game harder and more frustrating. The fact that people stick with this game through the crippling lag of fleet warfare, and the changes you keep introducing to make this game more and more difficult (read: carrier nerf) really testifies to the incredible power and pull this game has on your customers. Please do not ruin 0.0 life for those of us who enjoy the large scale engagements and PvP. Listen to what these people are saying, and realize that it only makes things worse. who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
Apocalytica Insomnia DarkSide Defenders	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:25:00 - [77] I can see it already. Jita Local: "Looking for 0.0 Macro ratters - Single or Corp appilications welcome". While also the other guys are writing on the same local: "Are you looking for a profitable way for earning your money ? Are you a miner ? If your answers to this questions are Yes, contact xyz for more information on our ore-buying Syndicate. You deliver the ore, we pay you 20% more then you can get on the refined minerals." Actually, yes. mineral Compression, is most likely an exploit. and while its true that capital size modules will yield you enormous amounts of minerals on a minimum on m¦ you will only get marginal numbers with lower modules, like passive targeters (arent those around the same value as teh mineral compression from those ships in 0.0/lowsecs on Veldspar are ?). I dont know what the intentions behind this project are, but looking at one of my previous poster showing teh compression rates on low to highend Ores with the new Ore Capital ship, its safe to assume, that they want to stop the compression of highend ores for only marginal losses. The only reasl reason, why someone would want to stop the importation of hughe amounts of numbers of highend minerals from empire into 0.0 while still leaving the capability to move marginally numbers of trit/pyerite and all those lowends ores can only be that they want to stop the currently quite easy way to get the minerals for super capitals from empire to 0.0 without real effort, there for making it easier to build those ships. Or who of you guys would go and mine like 738k zydrine and 325k Megacyte in 0.0 space if they could get it from empire without real effort to build they wyvern time mothership? Or would you go and mine 2.6 million Zydrine and 1.3 Million units Megacyte in 0.0 if you could have it in 0.0 buy buying it in Empire with buy-orders and through mineral contracts, which you can do without spending much time on it, then put it into production, and simply wait on it to finish, and they do a single freighter run for it ? The fact remains, that even now in normal 0.0 space (i dont know if the drone regions have really improved after the latest patches or not) the avaibility for mostly Tritanium is so much more bigger then for other mineral types, and that mineral compression especially for low-grade minerals with things like passive targeters, with their somewhat 20:1 ratio kept lots of 0.0 markets going. Now assuming my guesses on the intention for this fix are really to make it a bit harder to get your super capital the i make following solutions avaible for review that will not hurt the 0.0 markets, while not inflating empire prices on low grade ore. Those solutions might not work if you take all of em, but they might be an idea to thing about withthe right amount of balancing. Solutions: A.1) do not fix items like for example passive targeters, but fix high compression ratios >40:1 by either increasing the volume of teh build item. A.2) Include a System that will make the waste on teh item dependant on teh compression ratio, where for exampe a compresssion ratio of 430:1 gives you 25% waste a compression ratio of 40:1 will give you 10% of waste, while 20.1 goes for 5% waste. B.1) Seed a new type Low grade roids into systems below 0.0 that yield like 20% more then their empire equivalent. Example: mysterious Veldspar , where 333 Uniits will yield you 1400 Tritanium, or where you only need 250 units to get 1100 units trit. B.2) Seed a new type of strip miner, that ican only be activated below a specific security-status and grants you like 20% more yield for low grade ores like trit/pyerite then normal strip miners do. A T2 version could work like normal strip miners allowing teh use of crystals. Are those solutions an option if its CCP's intention to burn down importation on Highend ores into 0.0 ? And what do you think about the assumtion itself ? DSD - Accounting and More
Jadal McPieksu	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:35:00 - [78] Where's your economist you drummed about a while ago? Have you actually asked him about all the by-products of this change? (My educated guess: No)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:37:00 - [79] As I understand it modules with compression ratio 1:5 or lower will be unaffected. In my opinion rising built components size to correspond 1:5 ratio would have been better as this will nerf also honest ratters who loot to get minerals. But meh - we will adabt as always at the end of day. Overall many good things planned for rev 2.2 Hope to see it soon.
Shinhan Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.12 06:01:00 - [80] Originally by: MotherMoon who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. 1) Nobody mines veldspar in 0.0 2) Only empire miners mine veldspar 3) Rorqual cant go to empire. So, how is one supposed to get compressed veldspar for ferrying to lowsec when its not possible to compress the ore at the place where its actually mined? And thats ignoring the fact that a large (largest?) portion of trit comes from rat loot and not from veldspar. Now, if it were possible to compress Minerals and not only Ore... -- Selling apples, each costs 1 signature, limit of 1 per person :) ѼѼѼѼѼѼѼ

James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:02:00 - [81] Will these ore compression BPOs work in regular factory slots? That would fix a lot of issues.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:24:00 - [82] Originally by: MotherMoon who said the mining cap ship had to carry the compressed ore... stock up your 200 million compressed veldpar get a few feighters and use a titan to jump into deep space. bam done. And where exactly am I supposed to get a Titan? Only the largest of alliances have those. They are not a practical solution. Here's an idea: Cut the size of trit by 50%, and pyerite by 25%, if not more. Logistics directors will love you. A lot of those insane compression ratios fall by 30-50%, then start tweaking the mods that remain on the 10-1 or better compression list. I can see nerfing refines on things that enter the game only by being player created. It means that they would be built only if they were expected to be used or sold. Say that Refineries lack the advanced equipment to properly handle such large and advanced components or some fluff like that. However, nerfing the refine value of T1 loot will have other consequences as well. A lot of T1 loot sells for very close to its mineral value, because its main use is reprocessing for minerals (the low end named are often actually cheaper, so many pilots use them on cheap fits). Nerfing the refine on these modules (BS weapons, some BS Mods, Armor Hardeners) will reduce their value as loot to their new perfect refine value, maybe plus a bit, as the named versions are cheaper and better. This is counterproductive to combating inflation, as less of the money from ratting will come from loot, and more (proportionately) from the bounties. As a result, less people loot and they go off to kill more rats faster, without the timesink of looting, bringing more ISK into the economy. Production of T1 modules has never been very profitable, except for a few that NPCs rarely drop in the nearby region. If the going rate on these mods is less than the minerals that need to go into them, due to their low popularity in fittings and lowered reprocessing value, it will become almost impossible to profit off making them. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:25:00 - [83] Originally by: James Duar Will these ore compression BPOs work in regular factory slots? That would fix a lot of issues. No, on the ORE Cap only. And the ORE Cap cannot build anything except compressed ore/ice. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales
Dash Vanderhuge	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:35:00 - [84] Just posting to say that I really don't like that mineral packaging change, as it just doesn't seem well thought out. While it's true that the whole produce->ship->refine at near-100% methodology seems a little broken, simply removing it after having it in the game for YEARS is not the way to go about changing that. It will disrupt empire markets, and throw 0.0 markets completely out of whack for months.
Peter Principle Bellum Aeternus The Makhai	Posted - 2007.08.12 07:47:00 - [85] Originally by: Scavok This will do nothing but make the game more tedious. QFT Is there anyone who ENJOYS running slow as mollases in January Freighters anywhere? Is there any reason why we would WANT to do this more? Especially taking my 1B+ ISK worth Freighter into 0.0 space? Sure, Jump Bridges should help, but even a Freighter can't pull that much Trit into 0.0. It was already a pain, now you've just made it irritating. I've seen a number of positive changes recently that take some of the "work" out of EVE. The compression nerf is a step in the wrong direction, making something that was already a PITA into a REQUIRED PITA. sigh www.joinba.com
Desiderata Fabian GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:13:00 - [86] The compression nerf is an awful idea, the playerbase obviously see a massive demand for low end minerals out in 0.0, and using the sandbox format of the game have come up with ingenious ways to for fill that need. To remove it without a replacement is to not only massively damage the state of the market, but impinge upon the players creative use of the game mechanics, and ignore the reasons why the players have a need that is not being filled. The 0.0 lowend market needs to be supplied, if carriers with compressed materials are not supposed to be used in this fashion then surely the devs or from an RP point of view the nations of eve would see this as a hole that needs to be filled and provide a solution, like an Interbus jump capable freighter. If the demand exists why shouldnÆt there be the technology to fill it.
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:21:00 - [87] This sadly reminds me of Blizzard adding more and more ways to grind into their MMO. Please, rethink this.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:56:00 - [88] Well, there goes the last modicum of respect that Chronotis had. Rethink this nerf, or prices in 0.0 will skyrocket. You have removed the ONLY way to get bulk high-ends in 0.0, without replacing it. Please, think this through!!
Zenst Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:09:00 - [89] Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:34:00 - [90] Originally by: Zenst Well this change is sound, as there are ways to adapt. Enlighten us. How exactly are we meant to move freighterloads of minerals without 50-man 8-hour escort ops without mineral compression? Short of using a titan, that is.



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