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slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:56:00 - [1] Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:07:27 2 nights of hardcore action solo pvp. 1st night Set up bubble 2 jumps from hub in fountain in my deimos wait for traffic. and wait.....and wait. 2 pods come in , see bubble and log. wait 90 mins...nothing. so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away Second Day I setup my astarte and go from fountain hub - empire and back. No scout i figure if i die i die. Go for it. On the route i encounter 2 nano gangs (m.pire / cruel intentions) that i bypass as i cant realistically fight them. Literally every 2 jumps there is a farmer ( strange name + sec staus 5.0 + responds to chinese) that cloaks / safespots on entering system. Get to empire gate, camp for a bit. Myrmidon gets in and makes it back to the gate Some frigs come in and warp off. 2 scouts in system seem to warn people of my presence. At last a target ! A drake comes to the gate. I follow it into empire , tackle all guns blazing. It warps away :/ stabbed. I head back to fountain , through the farmers... At last some action.. (2 hours in) I see people being ransomed. Follow the pirates See two vagas on scan. Oh wait, scan clear. Surely not cloaking vagas?.. slothe > vagas with cloaks :/ Crulos > ;) Sunstr0ke > ratters with cloak ^^ slothe > both equally sad Crulos > bad 4 you Crulos > good 4 us slothe > bad 4 game slothe > virtually everyone i passed from fountain central - emopire and back slothe > cloaked slothe > really really sad slothe > and its not even like vagas need cloaks slothe > they just run away Sunstr0ke > lets go mine =D Crulos > mining vaga ftw ::) slothe > wouldnt surprise me So end of day 2 - 4 hours on , no fights. Isnt 0.0 fun. The illustration shows the following imho.. 1. Cloaks are ruining 0.0 ( they have become almost a standard fit on any size ship. i have seen them on interceptors / cruisers / bc / bs etc...) Please nerf cloaks asap 2.Farmers are tainting 0.0 They are everywhere. I dont mind the farmers on a personal level, some are ok, but their prevelance degrades the game. 3. nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 ( yes i know i fly nano ships) (yes i know my corp pioneered nano gangs) (yes i know they can be countered) Nano gangs spoil 0.0 as no-one wants to fight them = less battles. p.s. i am not criticising cruel intentions, m.pire or the guys i quoted here im just using them as examples.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.27 16:58:00 - [2] Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:05:41 reserved to deal with trolls troll number1 - flinx - you miss my point totally.
Fantome Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:02:00 - [3] 100% agree with OP. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:04:00 - [4] Originally by: slothe reserved to deal with trolls Oh look, another whine thread about cloaks and nanos..... Try harder next time maybe.
Saint Lazarus Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:10:00 - [5] I agree with 2, thats a serious issue, teh other 2 are just whines, sorry but theres nothing wrong with teh modules, people use them alot(OVERuse them) cause they're useful so what do you want? CCP to nerf anything thats useful? =s not a good business model and a never endin cycle as people just move onto teh next useful mods =) you cant always dock in 0.0 so teh only thing you can do is fit a cloak and SS/cloak, come up with a alternative or quit whining ------------------------------
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:13:00 - [6] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 27/10/2007 17:16:06 Originally by: slothe troll number1 - flinx - you miss my point totally. Oh your point was that you missed an easy BC gank in a Command ship because he was stabbed up? Or was your point that the prey out smarted you. Or was your point that roaming gangs are too organised for a solo ship to fight? There are plenty of fights to be had in 0.0...you just have to know where to look http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=2384 http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1894
TimMc Skiddies of Doom	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:20:00 - [7] I've encountered all of these problems, and never done them, but all I can say is get over it.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:22:00 - [8] Originally by: TimMc I've encountered all of these problems, and never done them, but all I can say is get over it. Maybe you are correct these problems just annoy me as i now see them daily wheras it used to not be very often.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Firkragg on 27/10/2007 17:24:20 1. agreed its annoying that every time you jump into a system wih a target it almost always cloaked 2. also agreed, every system is filled with them and theres almost nothing you can do as if you even get close to them before they can warp and cloak they will just log. 3. nano gangs are starting to become a pain. Its not that i ahve a problem with nano ships themselves since 0.0 is a big place and it helps to be able to travel it fast. Whats needed is a more effecient counter when your flying something of medium size (i.e BCs and cruiser class ships). If im in a BS i use a heavy neut and if im in a small ship i use a web but if im in a BC there is no counter except for the hostile being mega dumb. Basically what im trying to say is that we dont need to hit everything with a big nerf bat we just have to give better counters.
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:26:00 - [10] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar There are plenty of fights to be had in 0.0...you just have to know where to look http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=2384 http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1894 i mean dude the second example here proves my point, just look at the sheer nano-ness of your gang compared to the opposition
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 27/10/2007 17:16:06 Originally by: slothe troll number1 - flinx - you miss my point totally. Oh your point was that you missed an easy BC gank in a Command ship because he was stabbed up? Or was your point that the prey out smarted you. Or was your point that roaming gangs are too organised for a solo ship to fight? There are plenty of fights to be had in 0.0...you just have to know where to look http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=2384 http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1894 the only thing those links show is that speedsetups is totaly overpowerd, and that the only reason u dont see that is cause your flying them oh and 100% agree with op on this one
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:34:00 - [12] Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 27/10/2007 17:34:18 Originally by: slothe i mean dude the second example here proves my point, just look at the sheer nano-ness of your gang compared to the opposition The tools are there for everyone to use Why would we use ships less good at the job of roaming. And to the MM guy...it doesnt prove speed gangs are overpowered. It proves that hastily thrown together blobs do not guarantee victory. Imo...the fact that more numbers does not guarantee success is a good thing. The only thing I agreed with in your OP, is that yes there are farmers everywhere. But how to deal with that without effecting the genuine npc'rs who use cloaks and safe spots to avoid being ganked by a naughty nano gang
skuko Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 27/10/2007 17:34:18 Originally by: slothe i mean dude the second example here proves my point, just look at the sheer nano-ness of your gang compared to the opposition The tools are there for everyone to use... i bet you also bully and harass weaker people in RL too...does it make you fell better?
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:45:00 - [14] Originally by: skuko i bet you also bully and harass weaker people in RL too...does it make you fell better? The prize for the most random insult goes to.... Some people must really hate nano gangs when they make real life comparisons like this. Have a beer, calm down a little
Chr0nosX Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:49:00 - [15] Edited by: Chr0nosX on 27/10/2007 17:49:36 I agree cloaks need a nerf but I also think you got unlucky.
Reverend Revelator Elite Storm Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:53:00 - [16] Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury -- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love --
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:53:00 - [17] Agreed. Running and or hiding is way too easy. And cloaking farmers are just lame.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 17:54:00 - [18] Sorry, there is nothing wrong with cloaks. Cloaks are working as intended, aren't they? If people can see cloaks then what is a cloak? --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:05:00 - [19] Edited by: Phelan Lore on 27/10/2007 18:06:24 Originally by: slothe Originally by: Flinx Evenstar There are plenty of fights to be had in 0.0...you just have to know where to look http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=2384 http://www.cruelintentions.org/?a=kill_related&kll_id=1894 i mean dude the second example here proves my point, just look at the sheer nano-ness of your gang compared to the opposition The funny thing is, that isn't even a good gang. Vagas and nanoishtars are great for solo through about 5 or 6 people. With 15 in the gang, you'll do a lot better with a gang fit for long range. -
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:09:00 - [20] Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:07:27 2 nights of hardcore action solo pvp. 1st night Set up bubble 2 jumps from hub in fountain in my deimos wait for traffic. and wait.....and wait. 2 pods come in , see bubble and log. wait 90 mins...nothing. so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away Second Day I setup my astarte and go from fountain hub - empire and back. No scout i figure if i die i die. Go for it. On the route i encounter 2 nano gangs (m.pire / cruel intentions) that i bypass as i cant realistically fight them. Literally every 2 jumps there is a farmer ( strange name + sec staus 5.0 + responds to chinese) that cloaks / safespots on entering system. Get to empire gate, camp for a bit. Myrmidon gets in and makes it back to the gate Some frigs come in and warp off. 2 scouts in system seem to warn people of my presence. At last a target ! A drake comes to the gate. I follow it into empire , tackle all guns blazing. It warps away :/ stabbed. I head back to fountain , through the farmers... At last some action.. (2 hours in) I see people being ransomed. Follow the pirates See two vagas on scan. Oh wait, scan clear. Surely not cloaking vagas?.. slothe > vagas with cloaks :/ Crulos > ;) Sunstr0ke > ratters with cloak ^^ slothe > both equally sad Crulos > bad 4 you Crulos > good 4 us slothe > bad 4 game slothe > virtually everyone i passed from fountain central - emopire and back slothe > cloaked slothe > really really sad slothe > and its not even like vagas need cloaks slothe > they just run away Sunstr0ke > lets go mine =D Crulos > mining vaga ftw ::) slothe > wouldnt surprise me So end of day 2 - 4 hours on , no fights. Isnt 0.0 fun. The illustration shows the following imho.. 1. Cloaks are ruining 0.0 ( they have become almost a standard fit on any size ship. i have seen them on interceptors / cruisers / bc / bs etc...) Please nerf cloaks asap 2.Farmers are tainting 0.0 They are everywhere. I dont mind the farmers on a personal level, some are ok, but their prevelance degrades the game. 3. nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 ( yes i know i fly nano ships) (yes i know my corp pioneered nano gangs) (yes i know they can be countered) Nano gangs spoil 0.0 as no-one wants to fight them = less battles. p.s. i am not criticising cruel intentions, m.pire or the guys i quoted here im just using them as examples. I have been hearing a lot about Fountain being infested with farmers. Do you ever record the names and systems you find them in? Join Macrointel!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:28:00 - [21] you can get your cloaks nerfed, but only the crappy ones the good version isnt getting nerfed ever ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.27 21:34:00 - [22] Originally by: SiJira you can get your cloaks nerfed, but only the crappy ones the good version isnt getting nerfed ever Said the DEV...oh wait
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Reverend Revelator Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury to give a valid opinion you need to have seen and be able to understand both sides of the argument. i never use cloaks on npc or pvp ships (except recons which were designed to use them) i do fly in nano gangs, but i prefer not to ( but given the choice of staying docked doing nothing or flying in them i do). i think a hypocrit is someone who tells someone not to do what they do. im not doing that. im just concerned in the direction this game is going. people who are able to have litle or no risk in 0.0 , which is not what 0.0 was designed for. there should be a degree of risk in 0.0, and having a cloak, nano fitting etc decreases the risk in 0.0 and in doing so devalues it.
Torquemanda Corteaz Gallente Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:20:00 - [24] Edited by: Torquemanda Corteaz on 27/10/2007 22:23:14 and yet I can bet you my bank balance that if I went back to fountain to collect some of my stuff i left behind, my sorry ass would be back in a clone vat bay the moment i undocked cloakers are going to become scannable, and nano ships can be countered already (alright, it isn't easy)
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Flinx Evenstar Originally by: SiJira you can get your cloaks nerfed, but only the crappy ones the good version isnt getting nerfed ever Said the DEV...oh wait i would link it for you but im sure if you look through the threads ive posted in you can either find me quoting the post or linking it ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 22:49:00 - [26] That doesnt mean however that probes wont get a boost, or that the scanning system changes. CCP dont neccesarily have to alter a cov ops II cloak to 'nerf it' indirectly. C. *signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link) - Jacques([email protected]) - sig designer - eve mail Low Sec Idea
SiJira	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Cailais That doesnt mean however that probes wont get a boost, or that the scanning system changes. CCP dont neccesarily have to alter a cov ops II cloak to 'nerf it' indirectly. C. i believe when they say that they wont ruin the perfect cloak they understand all the restrictions because of it even if some whining players dont ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn [yellow]Kaem
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:30:00 - [28] There is no hardcore pvp in 0.0. Only nano lamers and cloakers. =) Bellum Eternus [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y [Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I
F90OEX	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Snake Doctor Originally by: slothe I have been hearing a lot about Fountain being infested with farmers. Do you ever record the names and systems you find them in? That was done and there still doing the same thing everynight... CCP has done nothing about them.
Pattern Clarc Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:48:00 - [30] Come to greatwild lands sloth and fight with style. Sig removed lacks EVE content, email [email protected] if you have any questions - Xorus
SirMoric	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:56:00 - [31] I couldn't stop laughing when I read your bubble was stolen.... If they're cloaking, just ignore them. It's not like they're doing any harm and if they weren't able to cloak high-sec would be filled with them instead. And nano-gangs only engaging what they'll win? You ran away from a fight you'd loose too. Remember, there's no point in battles you'd loose. rgds
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:01:00 - [32] Quote: ... so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away LOL Quote: ... 3. nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 ( yes i know i fly nano ships) (yes i know my corp pioneered nano gangs) (yes i know they can be countered) Nano gangs spoil 0.0 as no-one wants to fight them = less battles. Have to agree. Nobody wants to hear "9 neutrals in xyz-. Oh god, they're all nanoed" in their intel channel. I'm hoping that new Minmatar Ewar Attack frig puts a crimp in nanogangs. -- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot
Plutonian Plutonian Shore	Posted - 2007.10.28 01:07:00 - [33] Edited by: Plutonian on 28/10/2007 01:12:54 Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:21:17 Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:19:57 My Point I dont think people realise what im getting at tbh. Ill spell it out. The way this game has developed in recent times in 0.0 with the advent of cloaks / nanos etc ( modules and tactics that i am not complaining of in themselves) is that players want the benefits with no risk. -npcers fly with cloaks to avoid dying. -gangs fly nano to avoid dying. both situations players (understandably) use the tactic to avoid dying. The problem is that the prevelance of these tactics make 0.0 very boring and predicatable 9 a lot of the time). I have been in 0.0 for 4 years + now. 0.0 used to be a more fun place. There used to be roaming gangs of all types, willing to put their ships on the line for fun. now what you get is small nano gangs only attacking targets they know they can beat. it sucks big time. The irony is that it is very likely that more people cloak due to nano gangs so there is less targets. I've begun to suspect what Eve really needs is some sort of 'live on the edge, who cares if you lose a ship' education. Perhaps Aura should urge noobs to get blown up often. Set their clone to Empire, but start 'em off in 0.0. Many alliances seem to be overly preoccupied with ship losses. Show me an alliance with lots of casualties, and I'll show you people who get out there and play. I've seen people take fewer risks with their internet starships than I did with my own life during the Gulf War.
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:25:00 - [34] In the end 0.0 will be reduced to types of PVP: 1) The Roaming Gang with Nano****gotry Both sides won't roam with a ship that goes less than 5km/s. You'll have a gang of 10 vagas, rapiers, sabres and ceptors fighting a gang of 10 vagas, rapiers, sabres and ceptors. Sporting the DPS of a wet sponge the fights will last 2 hours and no-one will die. 2) Fleet Lagfests Every time a POS comes out you'll have 700 in system. Fight will also last 2 hours and maybe 10 people will die.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:34:00 - [35] Originally by: slothe The illustration shows the following imho.. Cloaks are ruining 0.0 nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 No they are not spoiling 0.0 your Experience of 0.0 and they have every right to do this, just in the same way you have the right to spoil someones EVE experience by ganking them. Non consensual pvp is not an automatic bill of rights for you to be able to gank someone, if a player uses legal game mechanics or a ship setup or module to evade you they are carrying out their form of pvp by practicing non consensual avoidance they are within their rights as a paying subscriber to do so and it obviously upsets you as you have brought your issues to the forum to complain. If a "carebear" complains that someone killed them they are flamed and insulted so why shouldn't the same happen to you because you feel the need to come to the forum and rant about someones differing play style? Originally by: MOTOK0 A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
Horza Otho Minmatar Infortunatus Eventus HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2007.10.28 02:37:00 - [36] If there was a better word then signed, i'd type it. Can't agree more.
Sir Scorpion Black Banners	Posted - 2007.10.28 03:22:00 - [37] I agree to some point, its not really about the models or ships them selves, BUT we always say Adapt or die. And that is what happened players adapted, they found ways to fight and be safe, farm and be safe. There is nothing wrong with that, mater of fact itÆs the logical thing to do. to gain an edge you must fight on all levels. However the idea that EVE is a constant evolution is wrong and right at the same time, so if some one develops a model that effects me negatively in some way, there is no other way ôthroughö game mechanics to counter it. unless the developers provide that through execs whining. But lets take it this way, in EVE original formula that is starting to fade into the background of the more streamlined normal players, who frankly outnumber the old players of eve with a vast extent. That almost now forgotten formula, of Risk Vs Reward. If we bring that idea and concept back again, maybe things will look much better, cloaking farmers and ôSafeö PVP ships, donÆt seem right by all eve standards and any one who says other wise is an idiot.
Cipher7 VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.28 04:51:00 - [38] Originally by: slothe The way this game has developed in recent times in 0.0 with the advent of cloaks / nanos etc ( modules and tactics that i am not complaining of in themselves) is that players want the benefits with no risk. Eve is basically a prison environment. Fights are all a series of Scout/Attack/Evade/Bait manoevers. Everyone is trying to catch someone a little weaker than themselves, and avoid anyone thats stronger. You see a gang that's smaller, you chase it around. You see a gang that's bigger, you avoid it. Of course a NPC'er is not gonna fight you, he's fitted for NPC'ing, he would avoid you the same way you would avoid a blob. So why should the game nerf someone else to buff you? You want a fight? Try finding someone who WANTS to fight. But you won't because they will blob you and you will lose your ship. Ultimately you are arguing against human nature, yet at the same time you do not recognize your own human nature, which is demanding the same thing as everyone else : "Buff me, nerf you, let me escape blobs because its unfair to me, but let me kill NPC'ers even though its unfair to them."
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.28 05:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Snake Doctor I have been hearing a lot about Fountain being infested with farmers. Do you ever record the names and systems you find them in? I dont think anyone bothers... they're there 24/7 for the gms to find, most of them are in the usual h-y or bluescrew or noob corps but a large group called hopes of pirate (sounds like a good alliance to me) are also farming their asses off there. More and more mainstream alliances are allowing farmers in now and sadly a lot of alliances that im blue with have farmers, i'll kill them anyway if they dont speak english and fly filthy cloaking ratting ravens but most of the blue ones log, it seems they're worried that they might get kicked out of their alliances and not be able to mooch standings. It is getting increasingly hard to catch them ratting even in a lone frig... they safespot and cloak faster than ever... farmers and non farmers alike are learning how to make ravens vanish in seconds. Scanning them out isnt hard but by the time you have dropped out of warp they are normally gone... Pure blind has some, deklein has some, branch has a ****load, venal has lots, and fountain has truckloads, so many in fact that they will fight back because they know they can win through weight of numbers (6 ravens and a few domis hurts) If the devs cared, they'd have no trouble finding them, i'll hold their hand if they like, but clearly they dont want to get rid of the farmers. On the side note of nano gangs ruining 0.0... im not sure thats true at all... some alliances more than others love to blob, a visit to mpire space with a 5 man gang will be rewarded with nothing until they have a few carriers in place and then 20-30 people undocking and chasing you... nanos arent hard to counter and cant threaten a real gang, they offer survivability to small group pvpers and thats why i like them.
Flinx Evenstar Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.28 07:06:00 - [40] Originally by: Zeoliter In the end 0.0 will be reduced to types of PVP: 1) The Roaming Gang with Nano****gotry Both sides won't roam with a ship that goes less than 5km/s. You'll have a gang of 10 vagas, rapiers, sabres and ceptors fighting a gang of 10 vagas, rapiers, sabres and ceptors. Sporting the DPS of a wet sponge the fights will last 2 hours and no-one will die. 2) Fleet Lagfests Every time a POS comes out you'll have 700 in system. Fight will also last 2 hours and maybe 10 people will die. I kind of agree, but Ishtars do some serious damage, not exactly a wet sponge. And you may call it ffagtry or something, but please explain ti me why it is lame to fit a ship well. Are we to just sit there at optimal, with 0m/s and press F1-8...Nothing wrong with a good setup As for the POS thing and 700 in local You may remember F-T, I will try to be neutral, but some may describe that event as a CCP failure cascade. Yes you guys got what you wanted, but no one had any fun. Was the most ridiculous lag fest I ever saw. So given the choice. Long live the nano gang ...oh and btw, its Overdrives and poly carbs..but you can call them nanos
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:14:00 - [41] Originally by: SirMoric Remember, there's no point in battles you'd loose. rgds This illustrates everyones attitude (which is perfectly understandable). But this is where i disagree. There is a point of fighting fights you could lose- 1. Its fun, and who cares its a game (i play a game for fun not kill statistics). 2. With any luck you will learn something from the fight. Theres a saying that its often better to fight and lose where you will learn something, than fight and win easily. If you win easily wheres the fun in that- its at this point that its simply a matter of statistics. Wheres the fun in easy ganks in nano ships - is this really enjoyable? Ive done this myself, its no fun. It was more fun yuears ago flying around in cruisers where you could win some figfhts and lose others with - skill - theres no skill in nano gangs at all. nano gangs are for kill statistic players only imho
Redback911 Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:18:00 - [42] It's time to remove cloaks completely from ships that shouldnt be fitting them. THere are now enough cloak ships in the game that the standard cloak can be changed similar to the cov ops cloak ie. 99% cpu bonus for stealth bombers an black ops. Lots of problems solved.
Golden Helmet Caldari Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:20:00 - [43] Originally by: slothe so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away "Mine Mine Mine Mine Miiiiiine Mine Mine!!!" Sorry, but that was absolutely hilarious (Link, incase nobody gets my joke) Completely agree by the way. Something really needs to be done. Proto cloaks and improved cloaks need to be fixed. As for nanos and such, I don't really know how it can be fixed without nerfing the Vagabond and Interceptors to the point of uselessness
Sun Ra Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:20:00 - [44] I found 100+ isk farmers in indys in low sec lastnight, running between 3-5 systems
Wizard The JORG Corporation Methods of Mayhem Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:23:00 - [45] Edited by: Wizard on 28/10/2007 11:24:36 Originally by: slothe Originally by: SirMoric Remember, there's no point in battles you'd loose. rgds This illustrates everyones attitude (which is perfectly understandable). But this is where i disagree. There is a point of fighting fights you could lose- 1. Its fun, and who cares its a game (i play a game for fun not kill statistics). 2. With any luck you will learn something from the fight. Theres a saying that its often better to fight and lose where you will learn something, than fight and win easily. If you win easily wheres the fun in that- its at this point that its simply a matter of statistics. Wheres the fun in easy ganks in nano ships - is this really enjoyable? Ive done this myself, its no fun. It was more fun yuears ago flying around in cruisers where you could win some figfhts and lose others with - skill - theres no skill in nano gangs at all. nano gangs are for kill statistic players only imho QFT. I remeber back in early 2004 when bs wernt common and most pvpers even mined for days on end to build a cruiser then loose it in like 1 minite of roaming. Game is easy now tbh, just make sure your in a bigger gang......... Some people who know me will notice my kill /death ration has gone out the window since days gone past, but most the time i get bored and engage silly odds knowing im gonna die because after a couple of hours playing with everyone running 1v1 or 2v1, the fact i die at least means i get some action. Make sense^^^ my head hurts
Tandori Tanaka Tanaka Stuff and Supplies	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:32:00 - [46] yes cloaks ruin the game, especially in 0.0. Everyone and thier grandma fitting a cloak these days. I have seen whole gangs/fleets camping a gate while cloaked. The nasties things are those cloaked dictors. They hide cloaked 2-3km above/below the gate. They uncloak and immediately drop a bubble when something enters the system. Then the rest of the gang uncloaks and waits for the 30sec penalty timer to run out while the dictor keeps bumping and bubbling the targets ...
Radamathadus Seoltachd	Posted - 2007.10.28 11:56:00 - [47] I agree with the op on both counts. 1) Speed is spoiling pvp as there are too few counters to it. This did happen before in 2004 when the dual MWD AB fitting got nerfed. Remember those heavy missile spewing Ravens back then? Stupidly high speeds and awful DPS sound familiar? CCPs solution was to stop the dual fitting as it unbalanced pvp. How have things changed since then? Well there is one new counter - have access to a Minmater recon ship. The problem in essence remains the same - the mechanics of combat are not balanced for extreme speed and as such it is very if not overly effective stratagy. I think the powers that be need to sit down and reevaluate how speed functions within their combat mechanics. They need to establish what the the theoretical top speed is and then rescale where the various classes and specialist ships sit within that scale. Not least they need to look at how the assorted speed bonuses are applied. The counter they need to address are weapon systems that can counter speed setups. Ammunition that does less damage but offers greater tracking bonuses or speed for missiles would be an obvious solution. So you carry it incase you meet a nanogang and have no excuses if you do not. 2) Cloaking is also unbalanced. It makes all ships invunerable to other players. For certain ship types the covert ops and recons this is no problem as it is their role. However its proliferation amongst farmers means that it is having a huge detrimental effect upon everyone who plays. Solutions here are either the allowing of probing which is counter intuitive to the concepts of cloaks. Or to address the CPU of cloaks so that full racks of weapons and tanks arent feasible unless your in a specialist ship.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:03:00 - [48] Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:07:27 2 nights of hardcore action solo pvp. 1st night Set up bubble 2 jumps from hub in fountain in my deimos wait for traffic. and wait.....and wait. 2 pods come in , see bubble and log. wait 90 mins...nothing. so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away Second Day I setup my astarte and go from fountain hub - empire and back. No scout i figure if i die i die. Go for it. On the route i encounter 2 nano gangs (m.pire / cruel intentions) that i bypass as i cant realistically fight them. Literally every 2 jumps there is a farmer ( strange name + sec staus 5.0 + responds to chinese) that cloaks / safespots on entering system. Get to empire gate, camp for a bit. Myrmidon gets in and makes it back to the gate Some frigs come in and warp off. 2 scouts in system seem to warn people of my presence. At last a target ! A drake comes to the gate. I follow it into empire , tackle all guns blazing. It warps away :/ stabbed. I head back to fountain , through the farmers... At last some action.. (2 hours in) I see people being ransomed. Follow the pirates See two vagas on scan. Oh wait, scan clear. Surely not cloaking vagas?.. slothe > vagas with cloaks :/ Crulos > ;) Sunstr0ke > ratters with cloak ^^ slothe > both equally sad Crulos > bad 4 you Crulos > good 4 us slothe > bad 4 game slothe > virtually everyone i passed from fountain central - emopire and back slothe > cloaked slothe > really really sad slothe > and its not even like vagas need cloaks slothe > they just run away Sunstr0ke > lets go mine =D Crulos > mining vaga ftw ::) slothe > wouldnt surprise me So end of day 2 - 4 hours on , no fights. Isnt 0.0 fun. The illustration shows the following imho.. 1. Cloaks are ruining 0.0 ( they have become almost a standard fit on any size ship. i have seen them on interceptors / cruisers / bc / bs etc...) Please nerf cloaks asap 2.Farmers are tainting 0.0 They are everywhere. I dont mind the farmers on a personal level, some are ok, but their prevelance degrades the game. 3. nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 ( yes i know i fly nano ships) (yes i know my corp pioneered nano gangs) (yes i know they can be countered) Nano gangs spoil 0.0 as no-one wants to fight them = less battles. p.s. i am not criticising cruel intentions, m.pire or the guys i quoted here im just using them as examples. i agree with you 100%. remove the ability to fight while using cloaks similar to wcs. use the apropriate ships if you like cloaks (recons, covops). Nerf nano to hell, nano is the suck and people who fly nano are *****s scared to lose theyre ships.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:12:00 - [49] Edited by: d026 on 28/10/2007 12:14:51 1 Evening in 0.0: We regulary do suicide ops trying to get a fight no matter the cost. So we started to get a 25 man gang togetter to go roaming. We flew trough the drone regions down south and back till we finaly arrived back in k25 after 4-5 hours and +100 jumps trough deep 0.0. Personal Kill stats after a whole evening of roaming? 0 kills 0 losses. Thats what 0.0 is for the most part and thats not just beacuse cloaks and nano (but of they play a huge role, if i hear nanogang incoming i just stay docked because its a logistic masterpiece to get a gang togetter who can effectively fight them) its rather than people are just obsessed with theyr assets and thus resorting to tactics maximizing theyre survanility instead of just having some nice slugfest. But there goes the downhill spiral. You fit your ships extremely expensive to get the ege (policarbonsn, deadspace fit) and thus you play safe with every overly expensive module you fit. Fit your ships TII and lose your ship and have fun while it lasts!
barvo 7th Space Cavalry	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:15:00 - [50] Originally by: slothe Originally by: Reverend Revelator Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury to give a valid opinion you need to have seen and be able to understand both sides of the argument. i never use cloaks on npc or pvp ships (except recons which were designed to use them) Then by your own rules you don't have a valid opinion?
Donald Trump Minmatar Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:25:00 - [51] Edited by: Donald Trump on 28/10/2007 12:27:54 Edited by: Donald Trump on 28/10/2007 12:26:02 I think its so fun to look back at movies like wave of mutalation 2 and think wtf in almost every scene. How did he catch ratters in belts with a battleship? Why isnt he dead yet? Is he really in 0.0? I would blame the nanofad with nanodomis and nanophoons for a part of the current situation, it was nanofaggotry on a strange level, where the nanoships bumped, nossed and killed anything not nano while if 2 nanoships met in combat, one would just get away. So you had ratters and every nonnano pvp ship dying while almost all nanoships lived on. This hardened the ratters defence, as nanoship meant fast aligning coming to a belt near you, fast. So after the nanonerf, ratter hunters had to get 1 step faster, and used hacs for firepower and the survivablity of the previous nanoBSes. The problem with eve is that there wont happend cool fights if everyone noobscouts eachother for 2 hours before considering to engage. We need more to defend, to attack, and it to be worth risking our ships in the process. In todays eve everyone are in belts ratting with only friendlies in system, which encourages cloaking and running and is quite stupid tbh. You play the ratting game and make isk, whooooo local, cloak up and wait untill the local is gone the continue ratting again. You wont loose anything significant by taking a 'break' while danger is in your system. What if you had 'resource'-arenas in spesific systems that spawned maybe every 1 hour, there would still be belts, but reward there would be much poorer. So you need defence to hold the system and resource-point while your miners/ratters make isk, like mini complexes (plexes has often created good fights, bob lost a mom fighting for one etc.) You would have to start all over again and the distance instead a miniplex like this would be quite some, so you would actually loose something if you had to call off the operation. The hunters would have to use afterburners to catch stuff. Like current plexes the real reward would be in the end, and you would have to be there with a little group maybe (soloship if faction setup ) to be able to finish it in the 1 hour before next respawn. So what you got is a meeting place where ratters need to make isk in a little group, and where attackers can paralyze the income of the inhabitans without looking in 1 million systems for lone ratters. The exploration belts ccp got planned doesnt sound that far away, but its more like 'we sit in a plex instead of a belt and rat and run when we see someone in local'. For the ratters this would seem negative, but make the possible rewards great enough to encourage groups to try getting these plexes. Every 1 hour might seem a little short, maybe 2,5... 4 places in each normal sized region maybe? YES to random and unexpected pvp! Also: if the ratters wanted effeciency they would bring fewer and fewer defending, making nice possiblities for solo pvp.
barvo 7th Space Cavalry	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:32:00 - [52] Oh god, lets scoop the carebears into a little group so you can go gank them all at once. I don't think i follow Donald. BTW didn't you used to pvp with a vaga and a noobcorp curse all the time?
MeatwagonUK M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.28 12:34:00 - [53] I know you're not criticising anyone with the allegations of nano gangs and stuff. But seriously, you're in Outbreak. Irony-o-meter goes off the scale. That aside, yes, cloaks are lame. I was waiting in Y-1 yesterday when I saw you for the ravens to uncloak in E-B. They are cloakers with at least 2 friggin stabs on as well.
Donald Trump Minmatar Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.10.28 13:03:00 - [54] The idea is to put a little more risk and skill to make it work into ratting aswell, some organization to keep the space in and around resource system 'clean' instead of having 10 cloakski ravens spread out in multiple systems farming when theres no hostiles with 0 risk.
risin devil	Posted - 2007.10.28 13:10:00 - [55] well dudes you need understand once ccp coded the game to have fun now to make money ^^ 3 years ago 0.0 fighting was like fleet all day long but aswell solo gangs able or gank some dudes on travel ... now well 20 vs 20 = lag even more then 200 vs 200 3 years ago everyone if whining bout something once there was dual mwd's they got nerved couse ca flew thier ravens all day long why the nerf ? well couse dudes are not able to think how to kill them aswell look round 0.0 is now just blob blob blob or nano through most alliances say " hey we are pvp " you join them and sit alone there defending couse all say " sry we are makeing isk right now can't help you " 3 years ago we flew 30 jumps to a call to arms but well now all you get on a call to arms call is " na not again you overuse it " if you can't fight the lag you try avoid it : nano / cloak aswell some dudes smack couse you run from a 50 man blob if your alone . but if you get them outnumbert it's " you can only fight outnumbert" and ccp still bring patch over patch instead of recombain the codec to avoid lag. 2 days ago i met an dude in 0.3 system smacking bout us camping and that we should go 0.0 but well 0.0 is no fun anymore
HivemindedIndividual Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.10.28 13:31:00 - [56] I agree with everything that the OP said. As someone who has been actively involved in a lot of MMORPGs I can see the pattern of risk vs. fun has started to cripple EVE as well. MMO's almost always tend to be in their prime in the first year or two. This has nothing to do with nostalgia, it is because not everything is common knowledge or documented. In this period people tend to have more fun because there is no well thought out tactical element or 'battle plan' to PVP yet. Also things like cookie cutter character builds/setups tend to take a while to become common practice. A few years down the road PVP changes for the worse. The playerbase gets wiser and more shrewd, it becomes harder to find good fights and soon enough people leave the game in droves in search for a new, fresh MMO. And the cycle starts over again.
BloodyStub	Posted - 2007.10.28 13:32:00 - [57] all these problems mentioned here in this post can be fix by my following post. ==> Fix all prices of everything in game to $1million isk per item. read on here if you care to comment link- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=623882
SirMolly	Posted - 2007.10.28 13:43:00 - [58] Imho there is nothing wrong with nano-setups. They are also getting kinda nerfed with the introduction of the minmatar ewar frigg with its webifier bonus. So you dont have to train for minmatar recons to effectivly counter nano-ships. ------------------------------------------------
KeyserSoze	Posted - 2007.10.28 14:45:00 - [59] Originally by: MeatwagonUK I know you're not criticising anyone with the allegations of nano gangs and stuff. But seriously, you're in Outbreak. Irony-o-meter goes off the scale. That aside, yes, cloaks are lame. I was waiting in Y-1 yesterday when I saw you for the ravens to uncloak in E-B. They are cloakers with at least 2 friggin stabs on as well. cloaks need to just be for ships that are meant to be used for period. local needs to be gone. or atleast put it back so everyone is neutral, so people have to actually look at there character to know that there hostile. Traveling 25 jumps in nano gangs is quick, doing it in anything else BORES THE F*** OUT OF YOU. this game has changed to much not to have quick ships that can dictate if they want to fight or not.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.10.28 16:16:00 - [60] i agree with you.. but dont expect the devs to ever do anything to bring a reason for fair pvp(which will create a reason for pvp for the normal peeps)
Sasha Saucer	Posted - 2007.10.28 16:25:00 - [61] Never had a problem finding some1 to shoot, chase or chase me. I understand the OP's point of view in a twisted way, but I mean c'mon, your telling me you couldnt find a fight in 2 days or you expected to gank ppl solo in a HAC, that any ceptor, Rapier/Huginn, Vaga or Absolution or Domi or Myrmidon would have owned you in??? Which is it? Disclaimer: And I suck large at PVP but at least I dont run to the forums to whine about it. Suck it up, man. tis a game. tis a game...
NoNameNewbie Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.28 16:48:00 - [62] haha nice one, sounds familar :s pvp in eve has simply become a waste of time especially in 0.0 :-/ i really miss jumping into a bs, heading to 3we and shooting jamesw .o/
Kai page coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.28 17:10:00 - [63] pvp sucks compared to what it used to, imo lets all go bck to t1 bs + cruisers. those were cheap and fun to fight with (insurance ftw) For inzi, best cat our there
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.28 17:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Kai page pvp sucks compared to what it used to, imo lets all go bck to t1 bs + cruisers. those were cheap and fun to fight with (insurance ftw) how about giving TII insurance based on average market- instead of production price? imho the concept having such a high death penalty just lets people play to safe..
MaxSkywalker x13	Posted - 2007.10.28 17:38:00 - [65] I agree that it is hard to find decent fight these days, and only spotting nanogangs/cloakers when yuo roam can really get on your **.. But there is no need to nerf anything.. Regards MaxSkywalker x13** I cant believe that Mods checks the size of ur sigs - losers
Insidi Us Amarr Suicidal Mercenaries Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.28 17:41:00 - [66] I think they should make cloaks take a large percent of any ship's fitting, so it scales by ship size. It's like the reason WCS were nerfed; they didn't want people like Ginger Magician filling their lows with them so they can gank with impunity. Now they can be put on a combat ship, but mostly to just travel through lowsec to get back to home base. Cloaks should get the same treatment: they can be used to facilitate travel, but if they take 90% of any ships grid and CPU, they can't rat or be used in a PvP fit. ------------- RIP Constructive Criticism
sinfulangel Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.10.29 07:38:00 - [67] I couldn't agree with the op more...small scale/solo PvP is virtually non-existent these days. Between jump portals, jump ships, nano this nano that, stabs, cloaks...logoffski...its downright depressing. When I go solo hunting almost every system is the same.....most of the time its enter system, some random character named "asldfjdls raven" on scan...instantly logs off....if you happen to find the belt they were in you can wait...but guess what they log on and see you in system then log off again and now they don't come back to the belt. A person can travel 20 hops in 0.0 and encounter nothing but the above, random pods, noob ships, and the occasional frig...heck there are systems that have jump portals one or two hops from each other! Who needs stargates anymore when you can just jump portal from system to system in complete safety...I mean 0.0 is honestly safer then empire!! When you do encounter the occasional gang its made up of 10 vegabonds, 3 sabres, and a partridge in a pear tree...(yeah I'm being sarcastic...but come on half your gang shouldn't have to be in a Huggin/Rapier to have a chance)...and even if they were it's not like the nano gang is going to stick around. Anyway's I really hope CCP takes a hard look at how much they have (and continue to) kill off any sort of solo/small scale (non-lagfest) PvP in this game.
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2007.10.29 08:20:00 - [68] Signed, signed and signed again! Beware: I'm a "viscous pirate"!
Octavio Santillian Damage Unlimited Inc	Posted - 2007.10.30 04:15:00 - [69] PvP has degraded woefully since I've been playing. ItÆs not really this module or that fitting, itÆs due to an overall shift in attitude and player base. As some have pointed out, it seems to be part of the life cycle of an MMO, but I still lay a lot of blame on CCP. I say that with sympathy because CCP is stuck between a rock and a hard place. Untimely, CCP has made the shift from developing Eve as the realization of their personal gamming dreams to developing Eve as a business. CCP must bring in new content and provide new challenges and avenues of gameplay. CCP has a stake in expanding its player base. You canÆt blame CCP for attempting to expand on the game and grow its player base, but I do feel they have gone about it the wrong way. TBH, they have probably done it exactly right as a business model, but what is good for business is bad for the kind of PvP that made Eve different in the first place. 1) Farmers are paying customers. One way or another, farmers are paying CCP to æworkÆ the game. As the ærecreationalÆ customer base grows, there are naturally more æcustomersÆ for farmers. Having more farmers makes it easier for recreational players to have fun without much effort and hence more appealing to more people. Now recreational players make a distinction between farmers and themselves, but CCPÆs bottom line doesnÆt. As such CCP doesnÆt have a lot of stake in squashing the farming market; they just have to make a keep up appearances. People like to think that the mix of real currency and virtual currency is the demise of a game, but in reality it only chases away a few types of players, while the æzombieÆ gamers out there will continue to pay for accounts, and employ farmers, who also pay for accounts, for a long time. In other words, it doesnÆt make good business sense for CCP to make it hard on farmers, because farmers ultimately augment the player base even if they cause a few æhard coreÆ gamers to quit. BTW, it makes little difference if someone is farming for real currency or farming to support their alliance, so I just lumped them all together as farmers. 2) New content creates imbalance, and imbalance discourages combat. Chess, Go, Pente, checkers, etc. These games havenÆt gotten ænew contentÆ in forever, but millions of people continue to have fun playing them after, in some cases, millennia. Obviously CCP has to make new content, but as many have pointed out, the game just isnÆt as fun as it was when there were basically only T1 ships and mods. When you have ships of drastically varying potency, people are naturally going to want to fly the more potent ships and setups despite the cost. So people tend to use more potent, and more expensive ships and mods. Now loosing those ships, coupled with the ignominy of a loss on the killboard, creates a strong incentive to place victory over fun. I do it too, so IÆm not pointing any fingers. Back in the day, you really didnÆt care if you got blown up, and it wasnÆt going to be a mark against you for all timeà à Oh heck, IÆve done it again. I was building to a point but IÆm sick of typing and only a masochist would have read this much as it stands. Anyway, most of what I was going to say has basically been said in this post or somewhere else. Basically Eve combat (in 0.0 at least) has dwindled down to Metagame POS warfare or ganking. A reasonably fair fight is nearly impossible to find. I donÆt know, maybe some of you are finding them, but IÆm sick of game sessions that consist of a 100 jumps and nothing but a few unsatisfying ganks to show for it.
Grieg Samsonov	Posted - 2007.10.30 05:21:00 - [70] All of this talk about how the Minmatar Ewar frig will slow down the nano tide. How long do you think this frig will last in any gang fight? The only way this ship will have any effect is if you bring a blob of them with your gang. 1 ewar frig? Popped right off the bat. 2 ewar frigs? Pop, pop. 3, 4, 5? Now half of your gang is in disposable frigs. Not really the best solution.
Mkven	Posted - 2007.11.01 07:07:00 - [71] Mebbe they should just ---Change local channel so you dont know who's there--- As far as nanoships....they should make it so they can't do crap while running their microwarpdrive. Excellent for hit-and-run, but you have to choose to engage, and get in close and move slow to do anything (and get tackled). Not the best ideas but...its something
Khes	Posted - 2007.11.01 07:52:00 - [72] The ones using nano-ships now is the same people that back in the days overused stabbs. And stabbs was nerfed.
Exuscon Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.01 07:56:00 - [73] Somthing is wrong then with the system. That is to much of a defined set-up to be effective in squads in 0.0 I understand the excuse of wanting to win all the time and do it avoiding the ZERG but, come on. I can name numerous other successful PvP ,RvR games that are more balanced than that. I saw someone mention FOTM term... Well it wouldn't be deemed that if it was not always changing. CCP is scared to deal with the issue is what I think. Hell lets give the shuttle cloaks to while you are at it!
Bizz Lizz	Posted - 2007.11.01 07:59:00 - [74] Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 01/11/2007 08:01:47 Originally by: Radamathadus I think the powers that be need to sit down and reevaluate how speed functions within their combat mechanics. They need to establish what the the theoretical top speed is and then rescale where the various classes and specialist ships sit within that scale. Not least they need to look at how the assorted speed bonuses are applied. The counter they need to address are weapon systems that can counter speed setups. Ammunition that does less damage but offers greater tracking bonuses or speed for missiles would be an obvious solution. So you carry it incase you meet a nanogang and have no excuses if you do not. Vagabonds didn't keep us from having fun in pvp like 2 years ago, although a vagabond gang was deadly to interceptors already and there were no rapiers and huginns to stop them. I think, if you remove speed, blobbing will win (more). The usual thing. There is are 10 hostiles, let's wait, until we have 20 and then kill them. Pvp has become boring due to safe-playing, outblobbing and general overkill attitude and the bigger alliances and coalitions become, the more we'll get of it. People don't risk anything without their xx mates. Or: 'There is a hostile gang, let's undock 8 carriers.' I'd agree that it's all human nature and that's CCP has no influence, if it had been always like that. But it wasn't. About 2 years ago, it was easier to get good fights. Alliance carebearism has spread. Players are organizing themselves more and more in huge alliances and coalitions for less risk and profit. Maybe the drawback CCPs 0.0 empire ideas. We get exactly that. People hugging together in their empires for safety, not risking anything, except when it comes to blobbing with their empire army. And then do things like undocking 8 carriers, because they can, to fight a few hostiles ... staying in docking range ready to dock again of course. Ok, that was my morning moan. Bye. P.S.: If we didn't have that offline skill-training system, I would have canceled my accounts due to being bored by pvp and EVE the way it currently is. That's also a reason, why EVE won't die soon: 'Players, who don't play regularily anymore, keep their accounts subscribed anyway just for the skill training, wether they play currently or not, because they think one day something changes and they maybe enjoy the game again.
burek Magnificent Beavers	Posted - 2007.11.01 08:07:00 - [75] Agree with slothe 100%. I don't think the problem is any of the modules or ships though. Everyone is so ***** scared of dieing today because of their precious inflated stats or some other pathetic reason. Everything revolves around not dieing. I honestly don't know how this attitude can be changed. And the number of people that just don't get the "fight for fun, who cares" concept is scary. Or the "omg, you fit an expensive module on your ship, you're an idiot coz you still died to our 20 man gang" attitude, just outright s me. Sadly I have no answers but just an observation that the population of dumb **s in eve is at it's peak.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.01 08:36:00 - [76] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2007 08:38:09 Farmers should be shot on sight, but otherwise... what's the complaint? That you can't find people to shoot? Well, duh. People who aren't actively looking for a fight don't want to get ganked, so they fit cloaks. Besides, without a cloak you're pretty much dead the first time you hit a bubble. Blame bubbles / interdictors for the cloaks, if you want to whine at something. If I go to 0.0 for some ratting, I always fit a cloak. Stupid not to. Flying N jumps only to get ganked at some random gate bubble isn't my idea of fun. You're like a house burglar whining that people are fitting burglar alarms and serious locks in their houses. A bit pathetic, if you ask me.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.01 08:45:00 - [77] Originally by: slothe The way this game has developed in recent times in 0.0 with the advent of cloaks / nanos etc ( modules and tactics that i am not complaining of in themselves) is that players want the benefits with no risk. -npcers fly with cloaks to avoid dying. -gangs fly nano to avoid dying. both situations players (understandably) use the tactic to avoid dying. The problem is that the prevelance of these tactics make 0.0 very boring and predicatable 9 a lot of the time). I have been in 0.0 for 4 years + now. 0.0 used to be a more fun place. There used to be roaming gangs of all types, willing to put their ships on the line for fun. now what you get is small nano gangs only attacking targets they know they can beat. it sucks big time. The irony is that it is very likely that more people cloak due to nano gangs so there is less targets. I don't think that nerfing cloaks and nanos is a solution. Do that and people will simply log off more (nerf the aggro clear after jumping tbh). Not wanting to die has a simple reason: ships and fittings are still expensive (more so when more people can fly expensive ships) and earning ISK is a mind-numbingly boring and dumb way to spend time in EVE. It's not only nano gangs that run away btw., everyone either waits for his backup gang or runs. And you know why? Because with all the nerfs, EVE combat has become extremely predictable and it's numbers and ship types that win most of the time, not pilots and their skills. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Gner Dechast Gallente Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:10:00 - [78] Originally by: Plutonian Edited by: Plutonian on 28/10/2007 01:12:54 I've begun to suspect what Eve really needs is some sort of 'live on the edge, who cares if you lose a ship' education. Perhaps Aura should urge noobs to get blown up often. Set their clone to Empire, but start 'em off in 0.0. Many alliances seem to be overly preoccupied with ship losses. Show me an alliance with lots of casualties, and I'll show you people who get out there and play. I've seen people take fewer risks with their internet starships than I did with my own life during the Gulf War. I blame the killboards. They've become the extensions of many kid's fragile little ego, and what it shows there matters so very much that they can't even consider suicidal things for fun (say, battle-hauler invasion, for example). Close odds too often avoided, for the fear of it resulting in "embarassing" loss entry in a board, which is a damn shame, since close odds usually give tough fights which atleast I feel are more satisfying. I genuinely believe that if we never received any killmails and no kill log system (now in SiSi) would come, people would in general (atleast good portion of player base) be more relaxed about potential loss scenarios. Funny as it may be, some people indeed are more cauctious with their imaginary ship than they are out in the traffic there...
Aira Phlux Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:25:00 - [79] I have to agree, cloaks on non-covop's ships need nerf batting further. Also I think if you are going to have silly speed you need a silly damage nerf to balance it out. Speed "tanking" is a good defense, seems unfair that they should also be able to pump the DPS without penalty too. Some kind of tracking penalty maybe?
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Gner Dechast I blame the killboards. They've become the extensions of many kid's fragile little ego, and what it shows there matters so very much that they can't even consider suicidal things for fun (say, battle-hauler invasion, for example). Close odds too often avoided, for the fear of it resulting in "embarassing" loss entry in a board, which is a damn shame, since close odds usually give tough fights which atleast I feel are more satisfying. Yeah, killboards are probably one factor. There is also the simple fact that people who aren't looking for pvp do not want to fight you. This should be obvious, but apparently some people miss that. They do not want to fight you (i.e. get ganked by you, since you're in a pvp fit and they are in a ratting setup, no contest), and they will do everything they can to avoid fighting you. If not cloaks, then something else. Since it seems to be hard to grasp, I'll spell it out: people do not want to act as targets for your amusement. Sure, if I'm looking for pvp then I'll engage if I see someone who's a suitable target. But if I'm in a ratting setup, I very rarely want to engage anyone since it's a very poor risk/reward case for me -- I'm already in a non-optimal setup compared to theirs. Also, with this many sps cloning starts to cost a bit, and I tend to have some implants in my head. Probably nothing expensive if I'm messing around in 0.0, but still. All that amounts to me not picking fights "just because I can"; if I lose, it's an expense and a big hassle for me (new clone, get new ship, equip it, fly it back to 0.0. etc etc). If I win, I don't gain much -- a few nice modules maybe as loot. Wohoo. Of course, all this is probably aggravating for the "Counterstrike in Space" crowd, but I couldn't really care less. I'm not playing this game for their amusement. All this should be obvious.
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:59:00 - [81] Zey stole your bubble! How rude Anyway, the reason as to why it's getting harder and harder to get decent fights and everything you do revolves around not being more deadly, but more likely to stay alive is simple. Everyone wants to fly shiny ships and not some t1 frig... Eve's death penalty is the harshest of all mmo's (at least those I've played)... The things you must do to get more isk to fund your shiny ships are getting more and more tedious... ...sooo.... ppl want to risk less because to "sacrifice" your time in tedious affairs, only to get killed in a 30sec fighgt is not very appealing. That's the philosophy behind eve though and I'm not sure that can be changed easily, however I've learned to accept it and move on, even though it's frustrating for me as well to keep trying to get a fight and everybody runs/cloaks.
Chavu Ganja Labs Pure.	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:12:00 - [82] Finding targets to fight is a matter of timezone and location. When I log on I see most of my enemies all docked up with maybe a few in a belt and they don't want to fight, but if I log on early before I go to work, bam there's a 10 man mining op and defense gangs willing to fight, etc. 1) Changing cloaks will not solve anything, isk farmers/0.0 carebears will simply log off. Farmers used to always log off and then log on their alt scout but now I almost always see them cloak up. 2) Farmers tainting 0.0? Yeah it would be nice to catch them, but that has nothing to do with PvP, sure it gives you sexy killboard stats, but killing a farmer raven is hardly challenging. I wish I could kill all the farmers and cloak/stabbers/loggers in 0.0, I wish 0.0 was rougher too. 3) Nano-gangs ruining 0.0? I find this weird, as I feel a well setup nano gang is the counter to blobs (good exmaple is the links to the CI board in the posts before me) and I thought we all wanted a counter to blobs. You can also setup your blob to counter a nano-gang, or at least drive them off and kill a few of them without taking any losses. If you don't want to refit specifically for nano-gangs then that's your problem. 4) Jump bridges have eliminated pvp in 0.0 pipes and travel routes. Either you camp the entranceways to 0.0 or go for the enemy station systems, waiting for targets traveling around randomly in 0.0 is a thing of the past, sadly. I feel that there is not enough goals for gangs in 0.0 to elicit a fight from your enemy. Say you bring 10 battlecruisers to an enemy station sytem, your enemy isn't going to field 10 battlecruisers and face you at a planet, they are going to wait until they have a good 3:1 blob and swarm you with BS/hacs/recons/command ships and sometimes capitals. There is nothing wrong with that, I'd blob too, it kills the enemy and gives me no losses. The problem is that there is no sense of urgency to clear the theoretical 10 hostile battelcruisers, you could just wait for them to leave from boredom or some of them to log off and you have superior numbers. Unless there is a POS coming out of reinforced soon, there is little reason for your enemy to come out and fight. But POS warfare involves huge gangs which are fun if lag didn't exist. I feel for you, Slothe, we have all been there. I suggest a new region/target to play with.
Temijin	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:13:00 - [83] As someone who has come back to EVE after an 18 month layoff, I found this thread interesting. What is a nano gang? How are non- covert op ships fitting cloaks?
Gefex	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:14:00 - [84] I think people are also missing the exploration factor too, you enter a system, hostiles in local, nothing on scanner. Chances are they are in a deadspace/exp site, I know I for one have sat in a system for hours in the middle of nowhere, mining in a Grav site, several roaming gangs have come through and flamed me for cloaking.
Semkhet KR0M The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:23:00 - [85] Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:07:27 2 nights of hardcore action solo pvp. 1st night Set up bubble 2 jumps from hub in fountain in my deimos wait for traffic. and wait.....and wait. 2 pods come in , see bubble and log. wait 90 mins...nothing. so i unanchor bubble. Just as it unanchors to the second a 5 man gang comes in, steals bubble and runs away Second Day I setup my astarte and go from fountain hub - empire and back. No scout i figure if i die i die. Go for it. On the route i encounter 2 nano gangs (m.pire / cruel intentions) that i bypass as i cant realistically fight them. Literally every 2 jumps there is a farmer ( strange name + sec staus 5.0 + responds to chinese) that cloaks / safespots on entering system. Get to empire gate, camp for a bit. Myrmidon gets in and makes it back to the gate Some frigs come in and warp off. 2 scouts in system seem to warn people of my presence. At last a target ! A drake comes to the gate. I follow it into empire , tackle all guns blazing. It warps away :/ stabbed. I head back to fountain , through the farmers... At last some action.. (2 hours in) I see people being ransomed. Follow the pirates See two vagas on scan. Oh wait, scan clear. Surely not cloaking vagas?.. slothe > vagas with cloaks :/ Crulos > ;) Sunstr0ke > ratters with cloak ^^ slothe > both equally sad Crulos > bad 4 you Crulos > good 4 us slothe > bad 4 game slothe > virtually everyone i passed from fountain central - emopire and back slothe > cloaked slothe > really really sad slothe > and its not even like vagas need cloaks slothe > they just run away Sunstr0ke > lets go mine =D Crulos > mining vaga ftw ::) slothe > wouldnt surprise me So end of day 2 - 4 hours on , no fights. Isnt 0.0 fun. The illustration shows the following imho.. 1. Cloaks are ruining 0.0 ( they have become almost a standard fit on any size ship. i have seen them on interceptors / cruisers / bc / bs etc...) Please nerf cloaks asap 2.Farmers are tainting 0.0 They are everywhere. I dont mind the farmers on a personal level, some are ok, but their prevelance degrades the game. 3. nano gangs are spoiling 0.0 ( yes i know i fly nano ships) (yes i know my corp pioneered nano gangs) (yes i know they can be countered) Nano gangs spoil 0.0 as no-one wants to fight them = less battles. p.s. i am not criticising cruel intentions, m.pire or the guys i quoted here im just using them as examples. Choose a system with only 2 gates, choose the gate where there's no warpable object in scanner range near it, and set your damn bubble over 80 Km BEHIND the gate. You will see how many ships manage to get back to the gate...
Dionisius Gallente Ordem dos Templarios Pax Atlantis	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:23:00 - [86] Well yesterday morning the pesky farmers resolved on having themselves a gang of domis, scorpions and ravens... Bad thing is they really cloak when you enter system and they just sit in the same place day after day after day... Actually something needs to be done about the cloacks, they bellong in covert ops ships, recons and black ops ships, not in regular battleships. _____________________________________
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:37:00 - [87] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Kai page pvp sucks compared to what it used to, imo lets all go bck to t1 bs + cruisers. those were cheap and fun to fight with (insurance ftw) how about giving TII insurance based on average market- instead of production price? imho the concept having such a high death penalty just lets people play to safe.. OH GOD STOP POSTING. I LIKE YOUR IDEA WE SHOULD SCALE INSURANCE TO MARKET PRICE THEN ALL THOSE SWEET HACS THAT SELL FOR 150 MIL BUT ARE BUILT FOR 20-30 WILL BE EASY TO REPLACE! OH WAIT NO BPO OWNERS WILL JUST SELF DESTRUCT FOR INSURANCE MONEY AND PRICES WILL SKYROCKET TILL ITS WORTH IT TO SELL THEM AGAIN ENJOY YOUR 1BIL CERB, ALSO L2P
Valan Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:51:00 - [88] Specific covert cloak ships can cloak anytime but can't fit mining lasers. Other ships can cloak but have a timer on module activation. In other words, use a module and its 15 minutes until you can cloak. This would need a change to the Stelath Bomber so it can bomb cloak and run. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
ConTorTion	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:55:00 - [89] Originally by: slothe Edited by: slothe on 27/10/2007 17:07:27 OP Is it just me or isent this the exact thing about eve that we like? There is atleast one thread a week flaming wow and that there system isent harsh enough, this is the result of the harsh peneltys of loosing ships in eve. Now dont get me wrong this is what i like with eve and unfourtunatly i dont fly in 0.0 because of this but whinig because you cant solo in a blastership in 0.0 anymore is imo not valid. This is not a singleplayer game and the thing that makes this game so great is that you CAN blow people up werever you whant or cloak and nanofaggot if you dont whanto loose your ship. Stabs, nanos and cloaks are all viable game mechanics that are a good part of the game, it seems like most of the pvp playerbase just whants to force everyone into pvp wich i think they shouldent. Just as there is non-consecensual pvp there should be good methods to escape it. Its kinda sad when longtime pvpers start moaning about game mechanics because the ratters dont just go right up to them and say "Please kill me kind sir". Moaning is not what we do we adapt and take to the challenge!
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:41:00 - [90] Originally by: Sir Scorpion I agree to some point, its not really about the models or ships them selves, BUT we always say Adapt or die. And that is what happened players adapted, they found ways to fight and be safe, farm and be safe. There is nothing wrong with that, mater of fact itÆs the logical thing to do. to gain an edge you must fight on all levels. However the idea that EVE is a constant evolution is wrong and right at the same time, so if some one develops a model that effects me negatively in some way, there is no other way ôthroughö game mechanics to counter it. unless the developers provide that through execs whining. But lets take it this way, in EVE original formula that is starting to fade into the background of the more streamlined normal players, who frankly outnumber the old players of eve with a vast extent. That almost now forgotten formula, of Risk Vs Reward. If we bring that idea and concept back again, maybe things will look much better, cloaking farmers and ôSafeö PVP ships, donÆt seem right by all eve standards and any one who says other wise is an idiot. I agree. I have no qualms with people using whats in the game to play it safe with their assets, because it's not reasonable to ask people to put their ships in greater risk than necessary for you own benefit. However, I also agree that the current game mechanics can make it frustrating when looking for/participating in PVP. If CCP found a way to change game mechanics so that PVP was more prevalent and easier to find/organize, it would improve my gameplay. The game is still a blast as it is, but there can always be things to improve upon. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Jade190	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:54:00 - [91] Though it was going to be a good read but turned out to be another "OMG NERF EVERYTHIGN SO I CAN SOLO" whine. Get over it and stop trying to use tactics that have obviously been outdated and are now obsolete.
Yaggher Xanuben	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:09:00 - [92] Originally by: slothe both situations players (understandably) use the tactic to avoid dying You kind of solved the problem there.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:27:00 - [93] 0.0 PvP is nowadays either a huge blobfests with POS shooting sessions or T2 uber-ships galore. It looks if you don't have several hundreds of millions to waste on ships + modules, you may not bother joining a gang, because you'll be very much useless. I said somewhere that I used to fly inties and find some fights with cruisers, destroyers, other ceptors, that was 1.5 years ago. Now, you can't even think about 0.0 PvP without getting into the latest version of nano-HAC, Recon or Command Ship, which means - be prepared to waste around 200 mill at least if you want to fit the thing decently. 0.0 PvP is becoming a billionaire game. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.11.01 12:50:00 - [94] The EVE playerbase seems to have changed. Stabs on a combat ship once meant you would be mocked. Achieve the same effect via overdrives and polycarbs and suddenly you are a leet pvp'er. Can anyone else remember in the nano-phoon era a few people said that small gang pvp would soon be dominated by speed setups and BS would be resigned to fleet? How right they where.
Raneru Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:12:00 - [95] Edited by: Raneru on 01/11/2007 13:12:08 Originally by: MeatwagonUK I know you're not criticising anyone with the allegations of nano gangs and stuff. But seriously, you're in Outbreak. Irony-o-meter goes off the scale. The point isn't that hes's criticizing nanoships while flying them. The point is that if you wanna fly in a small gang in 0.0 they are a requirement now. They are a direct response to blob tactics. I would love to trundle around 0.0 in a small tanked gang of ships but that is a death sentence. The only way for a small gang to survive long enough to have some fun is to be able to run off when things get too hot.
Felysta Sandorn Caldari System-Lords Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:12:00 - [96] Originally by: Moghydin 0.0 PvP is nowadays either a huge blobfests with POS shooting sessions or T2 uber-ships galore. It looks if you don't have several hundreds of millions to waste on ships + modules, you may not bother joining a gang, because you'll be very much useless. I said somewhere that I used to fly inties and find some fights with cruisers, destroyers, other ceptors, that was 1.5 years ago. Now, you can't even think about 0.0 PvP without getting into the latest version of nano-HAC, Recon or Command Ship, which means - be prepared to waste around 200 mill at least if you want to fit the thing decently. 0.0 PvP is becoming a billionaire game. Blob warfare is even getting worse... It used to be one blob versus another blob... You pretty much knew what the enemy would bring before the fight started, like in the civil war days... Now you bring your blob, they bring their blob, then they call in another few alliances to help blob up with motherships etc... Hi CPU, Stella Polar, GSA, Phoenix Allianz, and now Mostly Harmless as well! To the OP... Thing is... People don't fight unless they know they can win (or make a mistake), which is why a drake or myrm will run from your Astarte, likewise you in your Astarte will run from a Triumvirate nano-gang. Your tune would be very different if you managed to tackle one of those ravens, but found out he had a web, 2 neuts, a point, and lots of damage! Then you'd probably be on here saying 'Neuts are overpowered!' or something. I'm not saying I don't agree with you, I do, and I never fly nano ships (apart from Interceptors) myself, because I see them as an easy option. I could go to empire and buy a nano-Curse right now, but I don't like them! As it stands, nano-gangs are hard to combat, and when you're flying them, there's no 'do or die'... It's more 'do or try', and you can nearly always escape (hell... Whenevever I fly an interceptor, I only lose one when I actually sit there to fight someone... Nanoing and running makes you indestructable). Meh! Latest Video, Click Here!
Jeryk Aquila Applied Eugenics Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.11.01 13:26:00 - [97] Edited by: Jeryk Aquila on 01/11/2007 13:31:42 Preventing cloaks on ratters won't change a thing - they'll simply log off when someone enters local, or just jump between several safespots until you get bored probing them. The only solution I see here is to introduce more scrambling rats (or give all rats a chance to scramble) - of course nothing like that will be implemented. Nano gangs: Most reasons have already been named, another thing is the increase in dropping cap ships on the hostiles when it looks you might have a chance of losing - surviving that is only possible with nano gangs, unless the other side can drop even more caps - which usually isn't the case for roaming gangs who are out of jump range of their own caps. Nano gangs distribute responsibility to gang members away from the gang leader, so if someone dies you could say it's not the leader's fault since every nano ship should keep appropriate range and be aware of any rapier/huginn. If a BS/BC gang gets wiped out, blame will be laid on a single person (often not vocally by the gang members, but certainly by the gang leader himself), so he is less likely to lead a gang next time. Killboard stats have already been listed, but even if people say "I don't care about K/D ratio as long as I have fun" - they do, or at least the corp/alliance as a whole cares. Killboard stats still play a big role in recruitment/contracting/forming a general opinion about someone or their corp/alliance, until this changes most people will always seek to minimize risk first. The whole "nano gangs cover more ground" thing is wrong though - it was the case before warp to 0 was introduced, now the only thing that matters is alignment speed difference, unless you warp into an abandoned large bubble. Example: According to EFT a Vagabond with a Local Hull istab and a polycarb aligns for warp in 4.3 seconds, Tempest (No agility/mass mods or rigs) aligns in 15.3 seconds, so the tempest will take about 11 seconds longer per system (Warp speed is also a bit higher for the vaga: 3.75au/sec vs 3au/sec, but on long warps the vaga will cap out, so it cancels it out). For 25 jumps the Tempest gang will take 4 - 5 minutes longer than the vaga gang. Personally I'd like to fly in small BS/BC gangs more, but I can hardly see it happening in 0.0. Guess that's the lowsec boost CCP was talking about ;)
Orther Whyte Paradox Dreams	Posted - 2007.11.01 15:43:00 - [98] Proper reason why Slothe no getting fight.... Slothe in Outbreak, no one play nice with Outbreak.. No fun losing ships :)
Kharak'khan Bad Temper's	Posted - 2007.11.01 16:15:00 - [99] I got to say Slothe im in agreement we were having this convo before i noticed the post! In the 0.0 region i live in its either Blob or Nano's (and allot of cloaking NPC ravens called 0001Chingchangchong or something along those lines). Yes i can and do fly nano ships or use huggins in gangs etc and yes they do travel fast and are pleasurable to cover distance on a roam but do they enhance eve combat the answer is no. Mind you if CCP could solve lag as well it would help.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:32:00 - [100] moving all agent missions level 3 or higher to 0.0 would solve the problem Maybe some NPC seeded trade goods sold at prices that are sold at prices too low for carebears to resist... etc.... etc..... the problem isn't that nano's and cloaks are being used (they should be for hit-and-run type ops and for hunting behind enemy lines), what's needed is motivation for people to come to the same space, risk their ships, and yet still have the possibility of profit. If you know that going to 0.0 is going to result in a net loss, the only reason you are going to go there is to PVP and as such set up your ship with nano's and cloaks..... Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.11.01 17:50:00 - [101] Thats what you have empire and war decs for Seriously though, I'm with you slothe, ppl these days will avoid risk at all cost (even if it means losing out on fun) since taking a ship down gives u close to no reward (unless ur a solo pirate), while losing your own ship means back to grinding. There is little reward for killing ships while the loss is real and hurts... Thats why no one fights for fun anymore and the risk is taken only if the gain is real (territory, contract money, resources), even then low risk methods like blobing, cloaking, nano-gangs, etc are used. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:48:00 - [102] Agreed. It isn't just in 0.0 either. Every once in awhile (usually right before I have to upgrade a clone) I get in a Thorax and roam around until I'm dead in low sec. Last time it took five hours to find a fight. And then it was by me staying in one belt until someone found me and brought out a HAC. Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli
Silverized Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:15:00 - [103] I have to agree with you.. I remeber when we started with nano gangs in outbreak and how it was very unusal in the north atleast back then. Its all about that none likes to die, and nano setups are the untimate way of pvping in 0.0 without dieing. fights between 2 nanogangs are very unusal and they ends with one side running with none or one loss. And eve is more and more going towards nano VS nano:( I kindan wish we could rollback and start with small tanking gangs again:P ------------------------------
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.01 23:01:00 - [104] Originally by: Silverized I have to agree with you.. I remeber when we started with nano gangs in outbreak and how it was very unusal in the north atleast back then. Its all about that none likes to die, and nano setups are the untimate way of pvping in 0.0 without dieing. fights between 2 nanogangs are very unusal and they ends with one side running with none or one loss. And eve is more and more going towards nano VS nano:( I kindan wish we could rollback and start with small tanking gangs again:P Bah, it was just as boring when the side with more Scorpions used to win. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)

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