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Raven Timoshenko
Flying While Intoxicated
The Threshold
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Posted - 2008.03.10 11:03:00 -
[91]
/signed
The Great Game System Shock 2 and Mining, Hacking and Archeology |
SoulOfAnnihilation
Heretic Army
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.14 15:53:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: Damien Arcuri
Someone on the interviews for this tourney said they were looking at making a battleship-hull flagship. I think the blackops BS might be modified to fill that role:
1. Change the name to something like "covert fleet command."
2. Reduce turret/missile slots by 1, and take away turret/launcher/drone related bonuses, to nerf damage output.
3. Give them command bonuses, and let them use 3 warfare links by default.
... and the main suggestions in this thread...
4. Let them use covops cloaks.
5. Give them a large fuel bay or a fuel reduction bonus, and a jump range boost.
I think with changes like that, people would give up on gank-fitting them, and fit them more like command ships. They'd be somewhere between a command ship and a carrier, except focusing on stealth and logistics rather than having BS-class damage.
If blackops ships could fight effectively, jump small gangs, and use covops cloaks, they might be overpowered no matter how much effort is put into balancing them. Nerfing their damage while providing real stealth and allowing them to effectively jump and command a small gang might be a good niche for them to fill.
I like that idea requarding Warfare Links, with no dps.
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SoulOfAnnihilation
Heretic Army
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.16 16:29:00 -
[93]
bump
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CmdDesaster
Marquie-X Corp
Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2008.03.16 19:02:00 -
[94]
/signed
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SoulOfAnnihilation
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Posted - 2008.03.22 07:18:00 -
[95]
bump
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Star Nove
Blueprint Haus
Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2008.03.22 08:18:00 -
[96]
Signing the bigger fuel bay, or perhaps a corp hangar? Signing the Cov ops cloak..
Another thing I'd like to see? Covert Cyno's working through cyno jammers!
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The views expressed in this post are mine and in no way reflect the views of my Corp, my Alliance or my pet Iquana, Julio Ignacio DoubleGlazias. |
SoulOfAnnihilation
Heretic Army
DeStInY.
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Posted - 2008.03.26 08:38:00 -
[97]
bump
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Rabid Rich
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2008.03.26 10:08:00 -
[98]
I think the OP and most others on this thread are getting carried away a bit. A couple of sane people have pointed out that the ships are under gunned anyway, so losing damge bonuses just makes them useless for taking into a fight- at that point you make the ships purely logistical. so they would not be battleships.
extra ewar ability proposal? the recons are there for the ewar, you don't need these ships doing ewar as well. they are there to flesh out the recon gangs abilities-i.e. damage and jumping, not usurp the need for force recons altogether.
the cov ops cloak thing is also too powerful. these ships really don't warrant it and other posters have pointed out how game breaking it becomes once enough people have the skills to fly BOBS that you just get insane gank gangs. they do however need the scan res penalty to be removed, as it is extremely gimping having to counter it with racks of sensor boosters in precious PVP midslots.
the fuel bay/extra range is also a good idea.
score: 1.5 / 3
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SoulOfAnnihilation
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Posted - 2008.04.04 10:18:00 -
[99]
bump
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J'Mkarr Soban
Proxenetae Invicti
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Posted - 2008.04.04 11:06:00 -
[100]
The minute these ships were announced, my heart leapt with joy. I am a big ships pilot, but also a sneaky bastard pilot, and having the ability to do both made my loins quiver. I looked at the Marauders as well, and went 'pfft, too hard to train and won't be so good.'
Yes, well. Then I read the abilities.
Needless to say, I'm in a Marauder now.
What is so overpowered about a cloaking battleship? The DPS isn't good enough to take on other battleships, and the guns are too big to effectively hit anything, unless it's in sniper mode - which is tough enough as it is to get, without having to take into consideration covert ops cloaks, fitting modules, EW etc.
As for the bridging costs - I can see it being an issue for one ship being put through, but for putting lots of ships through - well, have a can beside it with fuel in it. If you're in friendly territory jumping in (the primary purpose for it) then you can have a friendly hauler with fuel beside you.
I like the idea that it should primarily be support for cov-ops gangs, in which case I like the gang modules idea, and the larger cargo for ammo.
Even the jump range - it's for infiltration, deep scouting etc - a larger jumpe range works with that.
I don't think it would be a solopwnmobile if it's handled correctly. Think a battleship-sized cloaking command ship.
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These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Vivien Sureflight
Fatalix Inc.
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.04 21:00:00 -
[101]
Originally by: MurderousPsycho*****
With cov ops cloak: fit some hybrids, move into range (noone can see you), pwn everybody, when somebody gets close, warp and cloak. Impossible to catch solo pwn mobile.
Not at all. Think about it: As far as "solopwnmobileness" would go, it would be a slower force recon without the Ewar bonuses. How--in any way--is that a solopwnmobile? A Force recon is faster, more agile, and gets the Ewar bonus to make it useful. If you fit a black ops for that, you'd deal *slightly* more damage, but be a lot easier to kill (rapier can web things to escape, Falcon can jam, arazu can damp... I admit the pilgrim sucks for a recon, but that's beside the point). The only BO I can see being used this way is the Sin, but that can be easily rectified by removal of its damage bonus. It'll end up begin a slower, slightly more damaging, FAR MORE EXPENSIVE force recon. What's wrong with that?
__________________________________
Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life... |
El Yatta
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Posted - 2008.04.04 21:21:00 -
[102]
I really dont like this idea. Not signed.
The whole point of the ship is that fills a role in a cloaking gang.
Pre-trin cloaking gangs could do probing, moving stealthily, offensive and defensive EW, powerful tackling, cap warfare. They could not DO stealthy infiltration of territory, or DPS.
The blackops adds both, in its design format, without the dps being extreme (low end fittings, less 1-2 weapon hardpoints than T1). The flaw is with the stealthy infiltration bit, in that the jump capabilities are pre-nerfed and too difficult to use effectively. The damage is fine, hitting much harder than recons or bombers can do.
It needs a dedicated fuel bay of around 1500-2000m3, and base jump range to be 2.5-3 instead of 2 LY.
Conversely, the ideas in this thread just make them DPS-lacking slow, fat recons, with of course the jump capability. Why make this ship similar rather than different, especfially as its a BATTLESHIP hull.
Similarly, people complain the bombers are still poor (true). I feel the way to go is uniqueness (bombs was a good start, shame they're awful), not giving them covops cloaks.
If you double or treble the cloaked speed bonus on bombers, give them a little more fitting room to breathe, and make the bomb launcher NOT use a launcher hardpoint and make bombs even cheaper. That would make them able to go seriously very nice impulse-speeds when cloaked, giving great on-grid maneuvrability while increasing the popularity of bombs and giving them nice dps by having 3 cruise AND bomb.
The aim is to find cloaking roles without giving EVERYTHING covops cloaks
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Mercenary Forces |
Skraag Shen
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Posted - 2008.04.04 21:47:00 -
[103]
Edited by: Skraag Shen on 04/04/2008 21:48:10
I've been testing the Panther on Singularity and I have a couple of setups that kinda work for combat roles. I always figure you should fit a ship to it's strengths which in this case are firepower (it's just a tempest minus one gun) and speed (nano phoon). The problem with fitting the for firepower with 1400's, while possible, leaves zero tank and no portal generator but it's ok if in a recon gang not roaming around anywhere. Fitting for speed cuts your cargo bay down and therefore no point fitting the jump portal generator again, though this is prolly the best setup I've found so far.
Notice though neither fitting actually uses the ship in the way it should probably be used. The only benefit of this ship fitted for combat over sticking a cloak on a tempest or nano phoon is the lack of lock delay after de-cloaking. You still have a 30s re-cloak delay and no matter how you fit the ship you can't use it for bridging a gang of anything above a few bombers once or twice.
Anyway:
1) I agree the ship needs a dedicated fuel bay and/or a massive change to the bridge function. Required to make it viable for say a 5 man recon gang to jump max range jump 2-3 times on one reasonable load of fuel.
2) Cloaking needs to be fixed. Either a new BO cloak (like the idea of this), cov-ops cloak ability or at the very least remove the penalties to re-cloaking etc with the normal cloaks.
3) Reduce the fitting requirement for the portal gen, 1500PG is excessive and makes for a very weakly fitted half billion isk ship.
so with a bit more discussion /signed
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Cilvius Sanctus
The Order of Chivalry
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.04.05 00:04:00 -
[104]
I have to agree with this thread. The Black Ops ship is something that I am definitely interested in, but in its current state it leaves something to be desired. This ship could be extremely handy for scouting out hostile or even possibly hostile areas. The ability to warp cloaked is something that a ship like this absolutely needs, and an increase in jump range would be very nice as well. I second the decrease in DPS to balance it out, and even making the increased jump range skill-based (as suggested) would work too.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.05 04:39:00 -
[105]
Is it safe to assume the gains a black ops like the Redeemer enjoys over the Armageddon should be in parity with the gains a Pilgrim gets over the Arbitrator? If so, then there are some serious gaps I don't follow.
The least controversial is the cap difference I think, for the recons, the gain is 20%, for the battleships, no gain for using tech two. Is this unprecedented in comparing tech one to tech two hulls? This is a deal breaker.
As the Ewar powerhouse, pilgrim justifiably enjoys double the sensor strength of the t1, Black ops again have no difference. Same for locked targets, pilgrim gains one, redeemer is identical to tech one.
On scan res, pilgrim locks 12% slower than arby but has over 100% more lock range. Redeemer comes out ahead initially, 20% faster scan res but for reasons unknown only has 4% more lock range than the geddon--figure in the cloak and again we have a deal breaker. Running the cloak practically means dampening yourself.
On both shield and armor the numbers don't make sense. Both pilgrim and redeemer lose approximately the same amount of shield hit points by upgrading to tech two, 22% and 20% respectively, but this difference is heightened by the resistance gains of the pilgrim to explosive and kinetic, 20% and 15% increases; redeemer on shield gains a paltry 4% and 3% respectively. The redeemer's shield recharge is even longer than the geddon's despite having less hit points.
On armor, the pilgrim gains about 30% more armor and bigger native explosive and kinetic bonuses, 40% and 18.75% while the Redeemer has -20% less hit points than the tech one version and virtually no bonus armor resistance to explosive and kinetic. The only area where the redeemer comes out ahead vis a vis the pilgrim and arbitrator is on hull, the cruiser loses nearly 40% of its hull in choosing tech two while the bs only loses about 20%.
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Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Ma Zhiqiang
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.05 17:10:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Ma Zhiqiang on 05/04/2008 17:11:39
I can agree on letting Black Ops getting a bigger cargo hold for fuel. Maybe even its own Strontium hold, as with Control Towers. Also the targeting delay. Should have same bonuses/features as the stealth bombers in that aspect. But Covert Ops cloak would be overpowering these ships. Every ship has its role. It can allready drop a load of stealth bombers + force recons into a system a few jumps away with mininum warning.
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CptEav1s
Net 7
Brotherhood Of Steel
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Posted - 2008.04.05 17:18:00 -
[107]
Edited by: CptEav1s on 05/04/2008 17:18:45
I like the idea of increasing the jump range, etc.
But as for a t2 covert cloak I think it would be too overpowered. Just because it is a 'big brother' to the recon doesn't mean that it has to have a t2 cloak.
They still serve their purpose, just like everyone though the Curse and Pilgrim were toast after the NOS nerf, well guess what they aren't.
Cheers
- CptEav1s
Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it"
I BRAKE FOR PUMAS! |
Vivien Sureflight
Fatalix Inc.
Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2008.04.07 21:45:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 07/04/2008 21:47:50
Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 07/04/2008 21:45:47
Originally by: CptEav1s
Edited by: CptEav1s on 05/04/2008 17:18:45
I like the idea of increasing the jump range, etc.
But as for a t2 covert cloak I think it would be too overpowered. Just because it is a 'big brother' to the recon doesn't mean that it has to have a t2 cloak.
They still serve their purpose, just like everyone though the Curse and Pilgrim were toast after the NOS nerf, well guess what they aren't.
Cheers
- CptEav1s
The problem is, while BOs can drop a gang of recons into system, they can't move around with those recons without losing the element of surprise.
Imagine the scenario: Local spikes. First thing you do? Check your scanner. Keep checking it every ten seconds or so. If nothing shows up, you figure they might be hugging the gates.
Now imagine the same scenario, except without the BO sporting a covert cloak. Local spikes. First thing you do? Check your scanner. Hmm, what's that you see? A panther. Gee, I guess it must be a covert gang about to cyno in some cap ships. Maybe you should warn ye olde alliance.
The thing is, it wouldn't be overpowered. Just because it would make them more powerful than they are now doesn't mean they'd be overpowered. These ships were never balanced to begin with.
Besides, power increases with cost. Consider the celestis vs. the arazu. The celestis has ****ty damage, moderate damage capability, and must fight within 24km. The Arazu, on the other hand, has moderate damage, good damening (with an extra mid) and can fight up to about 50km away. Does that make the arazu overpowered? No (though pre-damop nerf it was a bit of a beast). The improved efficiency is made up by price.
In a 1v1 fight, the t1 variant will beat the Black Ops variant. Hands down. The covert cloak would allow it to choose its battles more effectively.
And to address your point about pilgrim/curse: The curse is still good (though not nearly AS good), but the pilgrim... can't stand up to the other recons. It needs some love, but that's for a different post.
__________________________________
Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life... |
Ma Zhiqiang
Huang Yinglong
FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.04.08 18:37:00 -
[109]
Sigh.
The covert ops ships (I do not include stealth bombers), force recons and black ops are not primary combat ships. They have other purposes.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.04.09 01:07:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Ma Zhiqiang
Sigh.
The covert ops ships (I do not include stealth bombers), force recons and black ops are not primary combat ships. They have other purposes.
stop posting
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Sinistro
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Posted - 2008.04.10 11:20:00 -
[111]
Changes should be done carefully as the black ops can easily get over powered.
Possibilities to run a cov op cloak is in my opinion not a good idea, it will be too overpowered.
The first 2 things that has to be looked at are the fuel consumption ( or bigger cargo bays for the fuel ) as here it really needs a boost. And the second one is the lock time, the lock time penalty that comes with the cloak needs to changed.
I think with these 2 changes the black ops will be better in their roles and not be overpowered.
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TZeer
BURN EDEN
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Posted - 2008.04.10 13:22:00 -
[112]
Edited by: TZeer on 10/04/2008 13:22:56
1: Remove the locking penalty
2: Bigger cargo, or dedicated cargo for jump fuel.
Widow might be the only BO that dont need any change regarding bonuses.
Redeemer is also kinda nice with it`s trackingbonus, could maybe get changed to optimal?
Sin and Phanter need some looking at their bonuses. Maybe give them the same bonus as their recons.
Quote:
reach hostile territory, (possibly jump friendly recons in to help out), warp around, collect intel, if found can use EW to get away, cloak, and resume. make BM's for future fleet battles, gather more intel, get active and inactive times, and them have a friendly black ops pilot open a cyno near by. jump out and give the intel out to FCs, commence attack at leasure.
No need for a 500mil ship for this. Can easily be done better with a covert op frig.
Removing any DPS from theese ships are bad m`kay...
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Lord AtTiLAs
Viziam
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Posted - 2008.04.14 02:34:00 -
[113]
/signed! 200% |
Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.14 07:03:00 -
[114]
I think cov ops cloak would be a bit over the top. However some jump boost would be pretty good as that's the 'special' thing on this ship that makes it's unique and gives it it's role.
1) Fuel reduction so it could jump some reasonably sized recon cruiser gang around.
2) Ability to jump somewhere without needing cyno in destination (perhaps have specific hard to fit module for that)
3) Longer jump range (perhaps have specific hard to fit module for that, perhaps even make that module use some specific 'charges' to extend the jump range)
4) Ability to bridge non covert small ships (up to cruiser size perhaps) around.
5) Make maximum bridge distance function of jumping ship mass (so one could bridge frigates at significally longer distances than cruisers)
Are some of the jump related ideas that pop up in my mind when I think about possible ways to boost black op ships. Main disadvantages currently are logistical challenges (they are needed, but in current form are a bit over the top) and utterly crap jump range (not possible to deploy your forces deep into enemy territory as current jump range is good for passing some specific choke point at best and choke points are not that big problem for cloakers in first place anyway unless they have very well organized gate camp present).
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Spiderus
Gallente
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2008.04.14 19:21:00 -
[115]
/ Signed
Soul you got some good points man!!!
____
Enforcer of of the NBSI policy
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methosbhunter
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.04.15 05:56:00 -
[116]
long time pilot I agree Covert ops cloak is a must
/Signed In blood
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Under new ownership
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Carniflex
Caldari
Fallout Research
Fallout Project
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Posted - 2008.04.15 07:49:00 -
[117]
In game development forum section in one of the threads about blak op I saw pretty interesting idea: Allow blocade runners to use black op bridges. That would allow it to act as fuel carrier for that group of covert ships.
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Blackbolt
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Posted - 2008.04.17 04:21:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Blackbolt on 17/04/2008 04:25:23
Everyone's worried what 1 tiny little CO BS (BlackOps) BS will do, lol
Will hardly be the solopwnmobile.
Want to see something deadly - 6 Curses, for example, will rip the arse out of anything in seconds flat...and you'll save yourself a whole lot of hassle. (they don't warp while cloaked)...and go home with money in the bank.
The problem is everyone's afraid, incl CCP, who commonly pre-nerfs the crap out of everything. The whole concept of *total balance* is lost on me. I (for one) am totally sick of seeing everything balanced to nothingness. High skills and big bankroll requirement ships SHOULD get an advantage - not just on paper.
I can cloak my T1 raven and add 7 Lrg Smartie and whack the sh*t out of just about anything provided I've got a big stash of 800's and a couple of cap injectors. And that overcomes the cloak targeting penalty....and that's just on scenario...FOF's are another....What's the big deal with giving BO some love?
If you don't like going up against a cloaking BS, bring friends, or use that thing between your ears. The entire point is that it does have an advantage...and it is a friggin BS, for C*'s sake.
As it stands now, the BlackOps is a novelty item - might as well be like a old novelty faction ship and sit in your hangar.
For the skills and isk involved....add 300m and get a crrier and full insurance. (!)
BlackOps needs love, so get on it CCP and grow a pair.
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Nemtar Nataal
Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.04.17 07:44:00 -
[119]
/signed
Black Ops needs a overhaul to put them in the field where they wore suppose to be in the first plase.
We dont see a lot of roaming gangs with cloaked ships and honestly thats cause this ships dont have any real advantage of bieng cloaked as its hard for them to move around cloaked.
Now the Black Ops ship should have enabled them to move around and be more mobile but still cloaked, but it really havnt....we dont see gangs with 5 recons running point trying to find targets, setting up covert cynos and jumping in a bunch of Bombers to finish off the target cause of the limitations to the Black Ops field.
So please good all mighty fix it...might actually pull some of the attention off nano roming gangs and give us a more tools to chose from...more exciting engagements... |
SoulOfAnnihilation
Amarr
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.04.19 05:26:00 -
[120]
bump
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