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SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:05:00 - [1] Right now. We have a black ops ship class that is pre-nerfed. this is horrible for market, (no one wants them) and the players that spend nearly forever training for them. I know personally i couldnt wait to get into one, after hearing the different arguments reguarding them (Cargo Room, Covert ops cloaking devices would make them over powered, Jump Range), i have come to a few compamises. here are my proposals: 1. Increase Jump Range, 4 LY's isnt cutting it, try 5.5 or 6, that would be perfect. 2. Cargo Bay Fuel. what the heck, it costs 25 units of ozone to open a cyno, if you train for the black ops properly... Covert Cyno's cost 50 units flat. with the cyno skill trained to 5 (the pre req for the covert generator) it costs only 25 units, that is nothing... my Falcon can launch 10 cyno's with 80 units per cyno. so the cargo is perfect. 3. Covert ops Cloaking devices. every one is worried that it will make the Black Ops Solo Pwn Mobiles. well since we are required atm to use Improved Cloaking devices. i believe that we should just take the damage bounus's away and making it a bigger Recon, giving it more EW bounus's. making the black ops available to do its true purpose. Purpose: get into hostile territory, move around stealthfully. Scenario: reach hostile territory, (possibly jump friendly recons in to help out), warp around, collect intel, if found can use EW to get away, cloak, and resume. make BM's for future fleet battles, gather more intel, get active and inactive times, and them have a friendly black ops pilot open a cyno near by. jump out and give the intel out to FCs, commence attack at leasure. that is, in my head, the true purpose of a black ops, why can't that be a reality. I think ccp should reconsider the bounus's Please think of this, and post other ideas, related please, Thank you for your time Reguards SoulofAnnihilation SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
CFC Fodder Gallente R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2007.12.18 20:16:00 - [2] Damage bonuses or not, it's still using BS size weapons is the thing. Perhaps fewer weapon slots would be a better idea, as far as a compromise goes. Unbalance EVE! Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.18 21:27:00 - [3] actually, thats not a bad idea, since in refferance to the recons, the force recons (cloaking enabled) get a reduction in fire power, (less launcher slots). Very good idea bro. that could help balance it out! SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:27:00 - [4] /signed.... I agree with this entirely, especially as I plan to go for Black Ops now myself. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Ezekiel Nailo Minmatar Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.18 23:58:00 - [5] /signed cause i mean really a "Black ops" ship you would think it could cloak and warp but nooo dam ccp for nerfing dreams of piracy
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.19 00:01:00 - [6] It should definitely be able to cloak and warp, thats the whole point of the Black Ops ship. Especially as it appears to be designed with the intent that the Covert Ops ships would act as it's back up and support ships, at present the Black Ops ship is a detriment to the Covert Ops ships as it's easier to be found. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Melainia Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 00:40:00 - [7] /signed unless somethings get changed with these ships I'm scratching them off my "to train" list Quote: A capsuleer is like one of the old gods of any universe. You can pray for their assistance, or pray for their mercy, but mostly, you pray you never catch their attention.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 00:50:00 - [8] That is what i see it as. a ship that DOES infact stand as a flag ship for Recon Gangs, but it should be able to move with them, not just sit idle at one point in the system, and with the soon to come ability to find the prototype and improved cloaks with scan probes makes the 1 billion isk ship worthless if it cant stay conceled. it should be able to fly around the system while cloaked just like its counter parts (force recons). and with the fuel cost to jump makes it only able to jump maybe one time or 2 times. so you cant really penetrate hostile territory that well. just my 100 dollars SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Tovarishch Caldari Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:54:00 - [9] 1. Decrease jump fuel consumption or give the ships a dedicated fuel bay. 2. Increase max jump range, with skills, to about 7 ly or so. 3. Replace damage-style bonuses with reduced fuel consumption bonuses (for jumps or bridges). I'm fine with seeing Black Ops ships take a hit on DPS for actual usefulness. However, Black Ops ships being scouted using local needs to be addressed. My crusade for faster missiles.
Scylan Caldari Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 01:59:00 - [10] Edited by: Scylan on 19/12/2007 02:00:33 /Signed I totally agree with these proposed fixes. Being able to warp while cloaked is imperitive to any successful mission in these ships. I think you can compare the handicap on this ship to a semi truck that can't pull a full trailer. Jump range is also a big problem concerning the amount of fuel required to jump. This hampers the ability to be a Stealth type ship. Personally, the image that I get from this type of ship, is logistical in nature. It is not a pwnmobile and should not be used as such. It should be used like a recon ship that can bring in forces undetected and then bring them out in battle, come in from two sides with information, that's the idea i'm getting. It shouldn't be used to camp gates and kill one at a time. Lil' Smokie's back and he's 'smokin' it up again.............and again...... Blah
Lamis The Vinlanders SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.19 02:43:00 - [11] /signed!
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.19 03:31:00 - [12] I would rather see damage output reduced and even it's tanking ability reduced if need be (although I don't see that as necessary) and see the cargo/fuel capacity increased so it can actually jump a reasonable distance, and an ability to warp while cloaks, which it should have had in the first place. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Haakelen Gallente United Forces Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 03:33:00 - [13] /signed [ 2007.12.06 03:05:25 ] (combat) EVE Online belonging to CCP strikes you perfectly, wrecking your computer.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 20:01:00 - [14] I agree, they arent ment to "fight". i mean come on, look at the name, Black Ops, it means, covert, stealth, ect. these are the things that it needs to represent. its not like a sniper with a gili suit only puts the suit on when he is sitting still... he puts it on and MOVES with it, around the WHOLE battlefield, not just the street he is on... seriously... SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Forever Battle Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 20:46:00 - [15] agrees with soul...
Rhetoricus Caldari Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.19 22:12:00 - [16] /signed i agree with the concept fully "Make your peace with god, because you will be joining him shortly" - Deathwatch Inc"
Zauran	Posted - 2007.12.20 07:37:00 - [17] /signed Take the suck out of them please
Forbidden Fate	Posted - 2007.12.20 10:32:00 - [18] /Signed i agree completely, this really needs to be done STICKY!!!
Dirk Blackpool Red Dawn Empire Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.21 04:59:00 - [19] / Signed I agree this needs to happen.. The Warp while cloacked really needs to happen if you are going to keep this in the "Covert Ops" family. Dirk Blackpool Byye, Dirk Blackpool
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.22 22:50:00 - [20] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
C4rnag3 nemo nobis impune lacessit Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2007.12.23 01:46:00 - [21] sounds great! /signed
Nemtar Nataal	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:44:00 - [22] /signed
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.24 10:11:00 - [23] Bumpage SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2007.12.24 10:47:00 - [24] Edited by: Rjaiajik Kajvoril on 24/12/2007 10:47:10 This is something that needs adressing definately.... specifically the inability to warp when cloaked and the fuel capacity. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
Ferasal Gallente SPECTRE Ops	Posted - 2007.12.25 16:16:00 - [25] / Signed
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.25 20:16:00 - [26] When I saw the stats of these, I requested something similar (without regards to jump ranges / fuel, as I am completely clueless about that stuff). Pretty much my train of thought was, give the "role" of the black ops battleships to be jumped into enemy territory via covert cyno. The black ops would then open a cyno for the "normal" fleet. It would need to have their damage nerfed, but they would get an increase into survivability. Tech 1 BS level would increase damage and survivability Tech 2 BS level would increase survivability and use of covert ops cloak Special Ability would be a Jump Fuel Costs Role Bonus would be reduction to cyno costs.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.27 07:19:00 - [27] Personally i would reccomend NOT going with the damage bounus'. and give it either EW or Jump Drive stuff. and the damage revoktion, was because of ppl saying that if it was cloaked and COULD warp, that it woudl be too powerful. so hence the NO damage bounus. But.... That's just me. SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Xion Dsurion Gallente The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.28 16:46:00 - [28] When I read about these ships I did imagine a flag ship that allowed a scouting patrol to come in and do what it needs to do. I do not support the idea of a covert ops cloak (though when scout probes can find the improved and prototype cloaks i would like to see a method of insurance that such an expensive ship can remain hidden fairly well) I do however believe it needs more jump range. Just suggestions on bonuses. X Battleship bonuses - 10% reduction to jump fuel per lvl. X% bonus to jump distance per lvl (to allow approx 5.5 - 6 ly distance) Black Ops Bonus - 10 % reduction in jump bridge fuel per lvl. 125% to cloaked speed per lvl. Same role bonuses. Just some suggestions, agree or disagree, I think these would allow it to perform it's job (or what I think it's job should be) effectively. in any case /signed on the points of it needs jump buff like mad
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.30 02:08:00 - [29] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Xavia Cameron Caldari Southern Cross Incorporated Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.30 04:19:00 - [30] I agree. If need be remove all the weapon hard points on it. Just make them able to warp cloaked! (Jump fuel needs are a problem, but less of one then cloaked warp.) -- Fix Clone Vat Bays Fix Local
TimMc Gallente Vidar Fierd Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.30 09:10:00 - [31] CCP tried to make the Black Ops battleship flexible enough to fight or scout depending on the player, and they did a fairly good job of it IMO. However, I think most of us just want bigger recons with jump drives, so /signed. Jita: No one gets out alive.
Laila Eldgorn	Posted - 2007.12.30 13:18:00 - [32] Blackops seem quite fine for me as they're now, except jump range/fuel or the way this cov ops jump portal works. I'd say it would make it much more better ship if it could jump without cyno. I mean originally I thought blackops could get a team of recons/cov ops somewhere without cyno. I heard it's not the case. All in all giving cov ops cloak doesn't seem fitting for a battleship and reducing damage output would just make them suck for most pilots who want to fly them, really.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.31 19:42:00 - [33] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Bob Niac Gallente Meridian Dynamics PURGE.	Posted - 2007.12.31 20:08:00 - [34] Jump Range: i dunno. I mean it's nice and all, but how would some1 use it other then a 'oh sh**!' moment to jump back to the fleet you are forward deploying for. I agree that jumping in is somewhat safer. But that conflicts with the Covert Cloak, no? Two is a bit weird imo. You are the Daddy CovOps and it kind of makes sense you are gonna feed them with ammo, etc. If going deep and dark is the idea, then iI would think near marauder cargo would be VERY nice. posting now, editing (finishing) later
ultima miner	Posted - 2007.12.31 22:08:00 - [35] /signed hell yeah that will make them really usefull
Druadan Gallente Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.01.01 00:09:00 - [36] /si-diddly-igned
Fish Mittens Minmatar Terran Robotics Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2008.01.01 10:56:00 - [37] /signed
Rjaiajik Kajvoril Amarr Autonomous Systems	Posted - 2008.01.01 11:24:00 - [38] /signed (again) This badly needs to happen. RickRoll Avoidance Trolling EVE Knowledge
RedeyeAce	Posted - 2008.01.01 21:30:00 - [39] /me prepares to get shouted at Ok ive not been on for a while and just catching up on forums.. As I see it Black Ops ships are dedicated get in there stealthily and take a stealth gang with you... and they are NOT a major damage dealer. Why dont we change some of these wep slots for gang assist modules and have them like stealthy cs's?? Only an idea
Redd Lenses Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.01 21:40:00 - [40] Why not give it a separate fuel bay so it won't be overpowered by way of millions of cap booster in combat, but it can still have a 600m3 cargo bay for combat/loot while being able to jump. Make them larger recons, with less weapon systems and more ewar (give the non-caldari races a bonus to ewar). Also, an idea for splitting up sensor damps would be to give Minmatar one side of the damps bonus and Gallente the other side of the damps. ------------- Remember: This is an underwater submarine game, not a galactic space game.
Krxon Blade	Posted - 2008.01.02 12:14:00 - [41] S.I.G.N.E.D! Especially for warping while cloaked ability. If we cant warp cloaked, how are we suppose to infiltrate? Yes we can jump, but if enemy can see us, that is not infiltration. -- EVE offline game
Saladin Minmatar Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:48:00 - [42] Edited by: Saladin on 02/01/2008 16:52:33 I don't agree with everything written here, but I do agree that these ships need a boost. My thoughts: 1. Increase jump range: It needs a slight increase. The suggested 5.5 to 6ly base range is too much. change it to 3.5ly to make it on par with titans. 2. Cargo Bay/Fuel consumption: Currently the Covert Jump portal is highly impractical because of the fuel consumption to push ships through. It cost me about 1500 and 335 to push a falcon and nemesis respectively, a distance of 2.6ly (out of a possible 4.5ly). Thats already half the fuel I can carry after a reasonable amount of ammo. Please find a solution here. Either reduce fuel consumption for the covert jump portal, increase cargo bay size or establish a dedicated fuel bay like the one on a POS. As for the consumption on actual cyno jumping, I think its fine and does not need a new bonus. 3. Covert Ops Cloaking. Again I do not think this is necessary. I do not want to see turret reduction or damage bonuses go away in favor of covert ops cloak or some sort of extra Jump Fuel Conservation bonus. 4. Covert Cyno module: For training up cyno 5, this module should have its current features and be useable in a cyno-jammed system as well. depends on 5 5. Portal-able ships: If covert cyno's are not changed and cannot be opened in cyno jammed systems, allow all tech2 ships to be portaled and not just recons/stealth bombers and covert ops. The ships allowed now are ones that have no need for portals anyways. 6. Resistances: I don't want these ships to become uber-mobiles, but the fact that something this expensive can be dd'd does not sit well with me.
SpoonBender79 The Phoenix Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:14:00 - [43] Edited by: SpoonBender79 on 02/01/2008 20:15:04 Haven't read much of thread, but not warping cloaked is reason enuf for me to sign ... SIGNED (can't use the damn things either)
Darian Edalth Minmatar Metal Mammoth Industrial	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:42:00 - [44] /signed Very much agree, I was totally going to train for these until I found out they can't fit Covert ops cloaks, which, since it's a Covert ship made about zero sense to me. I would not like a damagae bonus, but EWAR or sensor bonuses would be fitting with it's abilities. Please CCP, make this some what useful? Right now it's a nearly billion ISK lead brick. - Darian Edalth. "Corporal, Warrior of CMSS"
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:21:00 - [45] Edited by: SoulOfAnnihilation on 04/01/2008 00:21:21 Originally by: Saladin Edited by: Saladin on 02/01/2008 16:52:33 1. Increase jump range: It needs a slight increase. The suggested 5.5 to 6ly base range is too much. change it to 3.5ly to make it on par with titans. Well i was speaking more so, the 5.5 LY would be the Black Ops Skill to lvl IV or Battleship skill to lvl V. not as a base. would be skilled out with calibration to lvl IV or so. along those lines. Other than that, great job guys. awsome ideas, hopefully CCP reads these!! =D SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
reg keeper The JORG Corporation Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2008.01.04 05:18:00 - [46] Ok I have read up and down on the forums and as yet to find a single response from CCP to the black op's problems. I fly and pvp with a redeemer. So please allow me to just comment on the Amarr ship. To me its faults are in a few basic areas. Armour resists are too low. ( this is supposed to be Tech II ) No Covert ops Cloak so no chance of being totally Covert. Jump range is just that bit to small and the cost just that bit to hight to make it of no use to any fleet situation. I paid the 500 million for my Redeemer, And at present its just a slightly better Armageddon with fancy paint. I do hope ccp look at what they are fixing in the next patches adn give us Black Op's some love.
Dont Look	Posted - 2008.01.10 04:00:00 - [47] Today we found a gang doing a mining op. We had everything setup to attack them Cyno charracter were in system prepaird for the cyno field. Redeemer were ready and sitting next to a can with fuel. We had 12 ppl in gang ready to portal jump in to the system. We were going to jump in some arazus first for putting points on the targets and then the rest. We had a coundtown, cynoship decloaked and fired the cyno. Gogogo and jumper nr 1 tried to jump (arazu) and we wait and wait but he is denied to jump because because target system is to far and ship to big for the amount fuel BO had in cargo (dont know exacly how mutch fuel BO had, But it were most of the cargohold.) It ended up us only being able to jump in some Stealthbombers, but with no points we did not kill as mutch as we thought when we found the gang mining long story short: Signed for a jump fuel cargo hold. would also be nice to use the Covert ops Cloaking devices.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.13 03:24:00 - [48] bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
jimmybeech	Posted - 2008.01.15 17:00:00 - [49] absolutly 100% needs a covert ops cloak without this it is totaly useles as a covert ops ship?? its ment to stay undetected.... thats the point?? whats the pointof a 'covert' ship that cant infiltrate?? if it had one,i would buy one,especialy a widow for the ew big bonuses which could be genuinly tacticaly usefull. Why would you want any weapon bonuses thats just not its role it should be a big stealthy force recon flagship not a damage dealing combat ship. you dont get many weapon points anyway so its not like you can do any real damage so its just a wast much beter off with EW mods and a usefull cloak. and the fule issue is a real problem in practice and could definatly use a little tweaking its too underpowerd and thirsty thow i wouldnt change it that much. signed
Danny3388 North Siders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.16 02:19:00 - [50] Edited by: Danny3388 on 16/01/2008 02:20:54 I am not yet able to fly the black ops ship yet, but i will be able to soon. Anyway i totaly agree this ship needs its own fuel bay atm from looking at the fuel usage their may as well be no jump drive on the ship, not to mention the such low jump range. Totaly agree with the fact that the black ops needs a cov ops cloak if we pay half a billion for a specialised cloaking ship we expect to be able to warp while cloaked. Also i do belive that this wont make black ops ships uber powerful, as basicaly if we jump into a system with a bubble on the gate we are basically screwed anyway as battle ships dont have the agility of speed to make it out of the bubble safely. With this fact an interceptor can decloak you even before you make it anywhere near the edge of the bubble. This ship seriously needs a cov ops cloak because atm its just flying half a bill of liability. Also \signed 100%
Herring Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2008.01.16 06:17:00 - [51] /signed Not training for it either till these changes come into effect; right now it doesn't quite cut the cosmic mustard. CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.18 10:20:00 - [52] Bumpity SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.21 07:50:00 - [53] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.21 13:03:00 - [54] This ship has damage bonuses you would expect to see on a ship that has a full set of turret/missile hard points so it is undergunned at the moment. I dont see a trade off by further reducing its dps being viable as it is allready currently pre-nerfed. The ability to use the covert ops cloaking device is a must. This ship should have had that ability right from the start. Iwould also agree that the black ops ships need their own fuel bay to increase the amount of time they can spend in hostile territory. www.eve-players.com
Lethos Aranis Caldari Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp	Posted - 2008.01.21 14:01:00 - [55] As someone very interested in the Black Ops ships, I definitely agree with the changes. They seem to be hindered by a few things which could be fixed by the above suggestions.
Sagitter Caldari GIT-R-DUN	Posted - 2008.01.21 16:55:00 - [56] /signed
Danny3388 North Siders Fang Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.23 19:46:00 - [57] Thought of another solution to the black ops problem, what does everyone think about having the jump drive removed because atm lets be honest its more or less useless anyway and having a cov ops cloak instead. I think it would be a good compromise to make for the ability to use the cov ops cloak.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.26 10:57:00 - [58] bumpity bump bump, bumpity bump bump, bumpity bump bump, bumpity bump bump, bumpity bump bump, bumpity bump bump! SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.29 04:41:00 - [59] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Syberbolt8 Gallente The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.01.29 04:57:00 - [60] Originally by: Lobster Man I don't know if I agree with the whole 'able to use covops cloak' thing. My arazu is already pretty deadly to npc'ers and mission runners, if I could now warp my dampening domi around while cloaked... I think the cov op cloak is a bit over board as well, you can already align and uncloak insta warp, however I would like the locking penalty removed, its a cov ops ship, should have a computer system that can make up for this.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Deathwatch Inc.	Posted - 2008.02.02 08:55:00 - [61] bump SoulOfAnnihilation D3ATHWATCH INC. American Timezone PvP Director "åill D3ATH Do Us Parå"
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.02.02 09:56:00 - [62] /signed I have to agree with the idea making this ship at all "usefull" as it is the "Big Mama" of the stealth ships. Give him the ability to use a covert ops cloaking. Or give him a much stronger tank. Remove the delays. I use one of them, but never in PVP only for reconaissance and sneak attack with bombers. Has anybody got a kill with one of those beasts so far?
yupyupyup	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:03:00 - [63] They're fine as they are. The Black Ops can relatively safely pass through bubbled camps while still able to take on commander spawns. The perfect ratter. :)
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.02.02 10:08:00 - [64] Well if you want to rat where your enemies are, then this ship works fine. But this is not the reason why I should spend 600 mio bucks for a ship to rat. Why should it then be able to have a covert cyno jump portal generator?
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.02.03 13:20:00 - [65] Daily Bump This ship needs to get buffed. Take a look at the market in Jita. There is no ship sold so badly. It makes no sense in introducing a ship that no one wants to fly.
Andreya Direct Intent	Posted - 2008.02.03 18:40:00 - [66] not signed. remove all damage from these ships, then maybe, or make it no more than 200 dps or so. i dont care what anyone says, a battleship that can warp cloaked is a little uber, maybe a 'warp while cloaked timer' for example. im in space. i hit my cloak, i stay cloak for 60 seconds... and cools down for 60 seconds, allowing me to warp around while cloaked. or get into position somewhere... but also to be scan probed for 60 seconds too _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Brother Welcome	Posted - 2008.02.06 19:14:00 - [67] Edited by: Brother Welcome on 06/02/2008 19:15:58 Originally by: SoulOfAnnihilation Purpose: get into hostile territory, move around stealthfully. Scenario: reach hostile territory, (possibly jump friendly recons in to help out), warp around, collect intel, if found can use EW to get away, cloak, and resume. make BM's for future fleet battles, gather more intel, get active and inactive times, and them have a friendly black ops pilot open a cyno near by. jump out and give the intel out to FCs, commence attack at leasure. I like your ideas for a longer jump range and covert ops cloak, but I strongly feel you have taken their purpose awry. You have described the purpose of covert ops and recon, not black ops. Covert and recon already do the job you describe. The principle of black ops is to cause trouble behind the lines. That is precisely what black ops warfare is about. And it is why these are fighting ships! They need to keep their damage bonuses, and they need space in cargo for PvP stuff like booster charges and missiles.
Viral Effect	Posted - 2008.02.07 01:57:00 - [68] Black ops ships arent too overpowered and they desperately need the ability to warp whilst cloaked. They were born for that role.
Zurtan Bayle Minmatar No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.02.07 08:36:00 - [69] /signed Totally agree with your purpose. Btw it's another strange things, about Cover Jump Portal and skills. The Covert Jump Portal Generator item don't have any bonus related to skil. The skill Jump Portal Generation is need to use it, what give 10% reduced material cost for jump portal activation per level. But a Covert jump portal don't need material for activation (not like Titan jump portal), so the skill is totally useless (at least to train more up than lvl 1). A bonus on the item by skill level for reduce the isotope need for ship using the portal would be logic IMO.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.09 08:24:00 - [70] Bump SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
Zurtan Bayle Minmatar No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.02.12 08:41:00 - [71] bump
Dav Varan	Posted - 2008.02.13 13:44:00 - [72] So you want to jump into system at a covert cyno completely unseen ? Then warp to your target completely unseen ? Then decloak 5 v 1 etc and pwn your opponent ? Only problem is gonna be anyone with the skills is also gonna be warping around completelly unseen :) So nuubs get consta ganked and no-one else ever see's anyone else to shoot at This idea = Death of EVE. Total Uber overpowered ship. Unless of course ccp gimp the firepower like in force recons when they grant covert cloak. Then you wont be happy and will moan about 600M warships having no firepower. Only change needed to black ops is a removal of the sensor resolution penalty for fitting cloaks. Apart from that try using skill to engage your opponents rather than forum winge granted superpowers.
Grapillon	Posted - 2008.02.14 09:53:00 - [73] /signed (to give him the ability to warp cloaked) This ship has either low fighting abilities and is VERY slow. Why is this a problem? Well imagine it takes you to turn your ship about 8-9 Seconds. Well if you ever warped into a gate camp cloaked you know that his is a HELL of time. The Widow really needs a boost. This ship has no defencive capabilities if you try to use it as intended with the ECM Jammers. That ship would be able to jam one ship ok but are you sure you want to fly a ship that is instantly primary everywhere you go that costs you 550 Mio and you dont even have the time to align before one of the gate camp flies closer then 2km next to you? Those ship have missed there purpose. The jump portal uses far too much Fuel to be usefull at all. You can't fit a full tank and then jump in and think you will have enough fuel to get back. To correct this give those ship a cargo about 1000m3. While flying this ship you cannot kill anything. Any tanked BS is outgunning you by far. They need far too much to fit in Powergrid /Cpu with the portal. Something must be done as they are not worth their money at all.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.19 19:05:00 - [74] bump SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.23 18:24:00 - [75] bump SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.02.28 08:07:00 - [76] bump SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
Zarch AlDain The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2008.02.28 11:22:00 - [77] Admittedly I've not flown a widow yet but I've trained for it and I do like the look of the ship as it stands. As you say they are a little gimped though - TBH I think the mistake was only bringing out one black ops ship. They should have done what was done with recon ships and bring out a combat black ops and a force black ops. The combat black ops would have the extra weapon slot back, but lose the cloaking bonus. The recon black ops would be able to use a covops cloak but lose its weapon damage bonuses instead so it loses yet more DPS. Zarch AlDain
Cailais Amarr VITOC Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2008.02.28 11:45:00 - [78] /Signed. In triplicate with extra sugar on top. The lack of warp while cloaked is a real kick in the teeth with these ships. C. Improved Low Sec Idea!!
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.01 14:39:00 - [79] i think that they could at least extend the range of the jump portals, imo, they are too short. SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
Robert Ger Caldari Atomic Heroes Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.01 14:44:00 - [80] pls enable covert ops cloak on BOps and the portal range improve thx 600 mil usefull then ************* Vote for buidable structures on Planets! *************
Dr 0wnage	Posted - 2008.03.01 16:20:00 - [81] I myself was very disappointed when i found the black ops was not going to sport a covert cloak. I mean whats the point? Why not just fly a domi and save myself half a billion isk?
Pimp Mustafa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.03.01 20:59:00 - [82] Edited by: Pimp Mustafa on 01/03/2008 20:59:37 Signed
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.01 22:07:00 - [83] Give it a black ops cloak, all the penalties of a normal non-warp cloak, but allows you to cloak while warped, maybe give it another penalty of reducing your WARP speed aswell, i don't know. Maybe a 0.75 tracking penalty / missile speed penalty or something along those lines...
San Rintu Asshats and Alcoholics Minuit.	Posted - 2008.03.02 01:33:00 - [84] Further addressing the 'Back Ops' Cloak Idea: Make it so you can warp cloaked as we all want the Black Ops to be a Black Ops and not a seriously expensive lol target. Ensure that the base PG/Tf use of the Black Ops cloak is a great deal higher than the Covops Cloak, so that the fitting bonus when utilised upon a Black Ops mean that if you fit the Black Ops cloak, you will not have sufficient space for a full rack of Neuts/BS Weapons. This would give the individual Black Ops pilot the choice of either warping around cloaked or fitting more offensive modules; hence balancing the ship. Other than that /signed
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2008.03.02 02:22:00 - [85] Originally by: San Rintu Further addressing the 'Back Ops' Cloak Idea: Make it so you can warp cloaked as we all want the Black Ops to be a Black Ops and not a seriously expensive lol target. Ensure that the base PG/Tf use of the Black Ops cloak is a great deal higher than the Covops Cloak, so that the fitting bonus when utilised upon a Black Ops mean that if you fit the Black Ops cloak, you will not have sufficient space for a full rack of Neuts/BS Weapons. This would give the individual Black Ops pilot the choice of either warping around cloaked or fitting more offensive modules; hence balancing the ship. Other than that /signed Already mentioned the warping while cloaked bit but otherwise yeah, make it have a penalty covops cloak doesn't with the only bonus of a covops cloak - warp while cloaked. Maybe even a 15-sec no lock timer you can bring down by 1 second per level of "Black ops cloaking device" or whatever you wanna call the skill for it.
Astria Tiphareth Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.03 13:46:00 - [86] It does seem weird in terms of progression that you have the covert ops frigate, recon cruiser, and then the black ops battleship, and only the latter can't use the covert ops cloak. I'd point out I can't fly one, but looking at the role doesn't require you actually fly it. Given that in terms of stealth & role we have two different roles for the stealth/recon-type ships (covert ops vs stealth bomber, force recon vs combat recon), perhaps what we need is black ops vs... something else, and balance the roles appropriately. The Marauder class would seem to be this counterpart, though perhaps needing some benefit to cloaking, so to make Black Ops genuinely about stealth and not about combat would seem reasonable. Some seem to have a weird idea of what reconnaissance is about. In an ideal world, the enemy never knows you're there, else they know what you're reconning. If on the other hand, Black Ops is a souped up stealth bomber, then it can match the stealth bomber in role, but frankly, are you going to do that with a cloaking ship that takes a week to turn around? SBs are limited enough in role without spending 500 million on a larger equivalent. Ambushes already occur in EVE, they're called gatecamps; I don't really see the Black Ops adding to this. I think the big thing that is missing on this ship is a well defined role or purpose. It can't fly with and manage force recon ships, and it's a poor choice for fighting other battleships. Given the lack of interest shown in terms of purchases, it implies no-one has thought of a suitable use for them yet? ___ "If you can't debate using logic & fact, and at least recognise other people's point of view, don't waste time posting on forums. It only makes you look like a teenage idiot."
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.03.05 12:27:00 - [87] sounds good Soul. Has anybody ever tried to fit a Widow ... Do I need to say something else? ... Well the role of this ship is somekind of "Heavy Bomber" while you can fit large weapons and cloak similar to a stealth bomber. But stop wait you need a lot of time to lock small things. So are you going to shoot on a BS? only way I see this ship to be usefull: Kill people ratting in there raven around the belts hidden in 0.0 deep in own country. Once hostile killed, go hunt on you own :)
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.09 18:35:00 - [88] bump SoulOfAnnihilation Four Rings PvP Wing PA FC
Damien Arcuri	Posted - 2008.03.10 08:06:00 - [89] Someone on the interviews for this tourney said they were looking at making a battleship-hull flagship. I think the blackops BS might be modified to fill that role: 1. Change the name to something like "covert fleet command." 2. Reduce turret/missile slots by 1, and take away turret/launcher/drone related bonuses, to nerf damage output. 3. Give them command bonuses, and let them use 3 warfare links by default. ... and the main suggestions in this thread... 4. Let them use covops cloaks. 5. Give them a large fuel bay or a fuel reduction bonus, and a jump range boost. I think with changes like that, people would give up on gank-fitting them, and fit them more like command ships. They'd be somewhere between a command ship and a carrier, except focusing on stealth and logistics rather than having BS-class damage. If blackops ships could fight effectively, jump small gangs, and use covops cloaks, they might be overpowered no matter how much effort is put into balancing them. Nerfing their damage while providing real stealth and allowing them to effectively jump and command a small gang might be a good niche for them to fill.
MurderousPsychoBitch	Posted - 2008.03.10 08:59:00 - [90] With cov ops cloak: fit some hybrids, move into range (noone can see you), pwn everybody, when somebody gets close, warp and cloak. Impossible to catch solo pwn mobile.
Raven Timoshenko Flying While Intoxicated The Threshold	Posted - 2008.03.10 11:03:00 - [91] /signed The Great Game System Shock 2 and Mining, Hacking and Archeology
SoulOfAnnihilation Heretic Army DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.14 15:53:00 - [92] Originally by: Damien Arcuri Someone on the interviews for this tourney said they were looking at making a battleship-hull flagship. I think the blackops BS might be modified to fill that role: 1. Change the name to something like "covert fleet command." 2. Reduce turret/missile slots by 1, and take away turret/launcher/drone related bonuses, to nerf damage output. 3. Give them command bonuses, and let them use 3 warfare links by default. ... and the main suggestions in this thread... 4. Let them use covops cloaks. 5. Give them a large fuel bay or a fuel reduction bonus, and a jump range boost. I think with changes like that, people would give up on gank-fitting them, and fit them more like command ships. They'd be somewhere between a command ship and a carrier, except focusing on stealth and logistics rather than having BS-class damage. If blackops ships could fight effectively, jump small gangs, and use covops cloaks, they might be overpowered no matter how much effort is put into balancing them. Nerfing their damage while providing real stealth and allowing them to effectively jump and command a small gang might be a good niche for them to fill. I like that idea requarding Warfare Links, with no dps.
SoulOfAnnihilation Heretic Army DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.16 16:29:00 - [93] bump
CmdDesaster Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.03.16 19:02:00 - [94] /signed
SoulOfAnnihilation	Posted - 2008.03.22 07:18:00 - [95] bump
Star Nove Blueprint Haus Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.03.22 08:18:00 - [96] Signing the bigger fuel bay, or perhaps a corp hangar? Signing the Cov ops cloak.. Another thing I'd like to see? Covert Cyno's working through cyno jammers! -- The views expressed in this post are mine and in no way reflect the views of my Corp, my Alliance or my pet Iquana, Julio Ignacio DoubleGlazias.
SoulOfAnnihilation Heretic Army DeStInY.	Posted - 2008.03.26 08:38:00 - [97] bump
Rabid Rich Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.03.26 10:08:00 - [98] I think the OP and most others on this thread are getting carried away a bit. A couple of sane people have pointed out that the ships are under gunned anyway, so losing damge bonuses just makes them useless for taking into a fight- at that point you make the ships purely logistical. so they would not be battleships. extra ewar ability proposal? the recons are there for the ewar, you don't need these ships doing ewar as well. they are there to flesh out the recon gangs abilities-i.e. damage and jumping, not usurp the need for force recons altogether. the cov ops cloak thing is also too powerful. these ships really don't warrant it and other posters have pointed out how game breaking it becomes once enough people have the skills to fly BOBS that you just get insane gank gangs. they do however need the scan res penalty to be removed, as it is extremely gimping having to counter it with racks of sensor boosters in precious PVP midslots. the fuel bay/extra range is also a good idea. score: 1.5 / 3
SoulOfAnnihilation	Posted - 2008.04.04 10:18:00 - [99] bump
J'Mkarr Soban Proxenetae Invicti	Posted - 2008.04.04 11:06:00 - [100] The minute these ships were announced, my heart leapt with joy. I am a big ships pilot, but also a sneaky bastard pilot, and having the ability to do both made my loins quiver. I looked at the Marauders as well, and went 'pfft, too hard to train and won't be so good.' Yes, well. Then I read the abilities. Needless to say, I'm in a Marauder now. What is so overpowered about a cloaking battleship? The DPS isn't good enough to take on other battleships, and the guns are too big to effectively hit anything, unless it's in sniper mode - which is tough enough as it is to get, without having to take into consideration covert ops cloaks, fitting modules, EW etc. As for the bridging costs - I can see it being an issue for one ship being put through, but for putting lots of ships through - well, have a can beside it with fuel in it. If you're in friendly territory jumping in (the primary purpose for it) then you can have a friendly hauler with fuel beside you. I like the idea that it should primarily be support for cov-ops gangs, in which case I like the gang modules idea, and the larger cargo for ammo. Even the jump range - it's for infiltration, deep scouting etc - a larger jumpe range works with that. I don't think it would be a solopwnmobile if it's handled correctly. Think a battleship-sized cloaking command ship. -- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work.
Vivien Sureflight Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.04 21:00:00 - [101] Originally by: MurderousPsycho***** With cov ops cloak: fit some hybrids, move into range (noone can see you), pwn everybody, when somebody gets close, warp and cloak. Impossible to catch solo pwn mobile. Not at all. Think about it: As far as "solopwnmobileness" would go, it would be a slower force recon without the Ewar bonuses. How--in any way--is that a solopwnmobile? A Force recon is faster, more agile, and gets the Ewar bonus to make it useful. If you fit a black ops for that, you'd deal slightly more damage, but be a lot easier to kill (rapier can web things to escape, Falcon can jam, arazu can damp... I admit the pilgrim sucks for a recon, but that's beside the point). The only BO I can see being used this way is the Sin, but that can be easily rectified by removal of its damage bonus. It'll end up begin a slower, slightly more damaging, FAR MORE EXPENSIVE force recon. What's wrong with that? __________________________________ Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life...
El Yatta	Posted - 2008.04.04 21:21:00 - [102] I really dont like this idea. Not signed. The whole point of the ship is that fills a role in a cloaking gang. Pre-trin cloaking gangs could do probing, moving stealthily, offensive and defensive EW, powerful tackling, cap warfare. They could not DO stealthy infiltration of territory, or DPS. The blackops adds both, in its design format, without the dps being extreme (low end fittings, less 1-2 weapon hardpoints than T1). The flaw is with the stealthy infiltration bit, in that the jump capabilities are pre-nerfed and too difficult to use effectively. The damage is fine, hitting much harder than recons or bombers can do. It needs a dedicated fuel bay of around 1500-2000m3, and base jump range to be 2.5-3 instead of 2 LY. Conversely, the ideas in this thread just make them DPS-lacking slow, fat recons, with of course the jump capability. Why make this ship similar rather than different, especfially as its a BATTLESHIP hull. Similarly, people complain the bombers are still poor (true). I feel the way to go is uniqueness (bombs was a good start, shame they're awful), not giving them covops cloaks. If you double or treble the cloaked speed bonus on bombers, give them a little more fitting room to breathe, and make the bomb launcher NOT use a launcher hardpoint and make bombs even cheaper. That would make them able to go seriously very nice impulse-speeds when cloaked, giving great on-grid maneuvrability while increasing the popularity of bombs and giving them nice dps by having 3 cruise AND bomb. The aim is to find cloaking roles without giving EVERYTHING covops cloaks _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces
Skraag Shen	Posted - 2008.04.04 21:47:00 - [103] Edited by: Skraag Shen on 04/04/2008 21:48:10 I've been testing the Panther on Singularity and I have a couple of setups that kinda work for combat roles. I always figure you should fit a ship to it's strengths which in this case are firepower (it's just a tempest minus one gun) and speed (nano phoon). The problem with fitting the for firepower with 1400's, while possible, leaves zero tank and no portal generator but it's ok if in a recon gang not roaming around anywhere. Fitting for speed cuts your cargo bay down and therefore no point fitting the jump portal generator again, though this is prolly the best setup I've found so far. Notice though neither fitting actually uses the ship in the way it should probably be used. The only benefit of this ship fitted for combat over sticking a cloak on a tempest or nano phoon is the lack of lock delay after de-cloaking. You still have a 30s re-cloak delay and no matter how you fit the ship you can't use it for bridging a gang of anything above a few bombers once or twice. Anyway: 1) I agree the ship needs a dedicated fuel bay and/or a massive change to the bridge function. Required to make it viable for say a 5 man recon gang to jump max range jump 2-3 times on one reasonable load of fuel. 2) Cloaking needs to be fixed. Either a new BO cloak (like the idea of this), cov-ops cloak ability or at the very least remove the penalties to re-cloaking etc with the normal cloaks. 3) Reduce the fitting requirement for the portal gen, 1500PG is excessive and makes for a very weakly fitted half billion isk ship. so with a bit more discussion /signed
Cilvius Sanctus The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus	Posted - 2008.04.05 00:04:00 - [104] I have to agree with this thread. The Black Ops ship is something that I am definitely interested in, but in its current state it leaves something to be desired. This ship could be extremely handy for scouting out hostile or even possibly hostile areas. The ability to warp cloaked is something that a ship like this absolutely needs, and an increase in jump range would be very nice as well. I second the decrease in DPS to balance it out, and even making the increased jump range skill-based (as suggested) would work too.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.05 04:39:00 - [105] Is it safe to assume the gains a black ops like the Redeemer enjoys over the Armageddon should be in parity with the gains a Pilgrim gets over the Arbitrator? If so, then there are some serious gaps I don't follow. The least controversial is the cap difference I think, for the recons, the gain is 20%, for the battleships, no gain for using tech two. Is this unprecedented in comparing tech one to tech two hulls? This is a deal breaker. As the Ewar powerhouse, pilgrim justifiably enjoys double the sensor strength of the t1, Black ops again have no difference. Same for locked targets, pilgrim gains one, redeemer is identical to tech one. On scan res, pilgrim locks 12% slower than arby but has over 100% more lock range. Redeemer comes out ahead initially, 20% faster scan res but for reasons unknown only has 4% more lock range than the geddon--figure in the cloak and again we have a deal breaker. Running the cloak practically means dampening yourself. On both shield and armor the numbers don't make sense. Both pilgrim and redeemer lose approximately the same amount of shield hit points by upgrading to tech two, 22% and 20% respectively, but this difference is heightened by the resistance gains of the pilgrim to explosive and kinetic, 20% and 15% increases; redeemer on shield gains a paltry 4% and 3% respectively. The redeemer's shield recharge is even longer than the geddon's despite having less hit points. On armor, the pilgrim gains about 30% more armor and bigger native explosive and kinetic bonuses, 40% and 18.75% while the Redeemer has -20% less hit points than the tech one version and virtually no bonus armor resistance to explosive and kinetic. The only area where the redeemer comes out ahead vis a vis the pilgrim and arbitrator is on hull, the cruiser loses nearly 40% of its hull in choosing tech two while the bs only loses about 20%. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Ma Zhiqiang Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:10:00 - [106] Edited by: Ma Zhiqiang on 05/04/2008 17:11:39 I can agree on letting Black Ops getting a bigger cargo hold for fuel. Maybe even its own Strontium hold, as with Control Towers. Also the targeting delay. Should have same bonuses/features as the stealth bombers in that aspect. But Covert Ops cloak would be overpowering these ships. Every ship has its role. It can allready drop a load of stealth bombers + force recons into a system a few jumps away with mininum warning.
CptEav1s Net 7 Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2008.04.05 17:18:00 - [107] Edited by: CptEav1s on 05/04/2008 17:18:45 I like the idea of increasing the jump range, etc. But as for a t2 covert cloak I think it would be too overpowered. Just because it is a 'big brother' to the recon doesn't mean that it has to have a t2 cloak. They still serve their purpose, just like everyone though the Curse and Pilgrim were toast after the NOS nerf, well guess what they aren't. Cheers - CptEav1s Sarge "Hey, Grif chupathingy how bout it? I like it got a ring to it" I BRAKE FOR PUMAS!
Vivien Sureflight Fatalix Inc. Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.07 21:45:00 - [108] Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 07/04/2008 21:47:50 Edited by: Vivien Sureflight on 07/04/2008 21:45:47 Originally by: CptEav1s Edited by: CptEav1s on 05/04/2008 17:18:45 I like the idea of increasing the jump range, etc. But as for a t2 covert cloak I think it would be too overpowered. Just because it is a 'big brother' to the recon doesn't mean that it has to have a t2 cloak. They still serve their purpose, just like everyone though the Curse and Pilgrim were toast after the NOS nerf, well guess what they aren't. Cheers - CptEav1s The problem is, while BOs can drop a gang of recons into system, they can't move around with those recons without losing the element of surprise. Imagine the scenario: Local spikes. First thing you do? Check your scanner. Keep checking it every ten seconds or so. If nothing shows up, you figure they might be hugging the gates. Now imagine the same scenario, except without the BO sporting a covert cloak. Local spikes. First thing you do? Check your scanner. Hmm, what's that you see? A panther. Gee, I guess it must be a covert gang about to cyno in some cap ships. Maybe you should warn ye olde alliance. The thing is, it wouldn't be overpowered. Just because it would make them more powerful than they are now doesn't mean they'd be overpowered. These ships were never balanced to begin with. Besides, power increases with cost. Consider the celestis vs. the arazu. The celestis has ****ty damage, moderate damage capability, and must fight within 24km. The Arazu, on the other hand, has moderate damage, good damening (with an extra mid) and can fight up to about 50km away. Does that make the arazu overpowered? No (though pre-damop nerf it was a bit of a beast). The improved efficiency is made up by price. In a 1v1 fight, the t1 variant will beat the Black Ops variant. Hands down. The covert cloak would allow it to choose its battles more effectively. And to address your point about pilgrim/curse: The curse is still good (though not nearly AS good), but the pilgrim... can't stand up to the other recons. It needs some love, but that's for a different post. __________________________________ Give a man some fire and he'll be warm for a day. SET a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life...
Ma Zhiqiang Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.08 18:37:00 - [109] Sigh. The covert ops ships (I do not include stealth bombers), force recons and black ops are not primary combat ships. They have other purposes.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:07:00 - [110] Originally by: Ma Zhiqiang Sigh. The covert ops ships (I do not include stealth bombers), force recons and black ops are not primary combat ships. They have other purposes. stop posting ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Sinistro	Posted - 2008.04.10 11:20:00 - [111] Changes should be done carefully as the black ops can easily get over powered. Possibilities to run a cov op cloak is in my opinion not a good idea, it will be too overpowered. The first 2 things that has to be looked at are the fuel consumption ( or bigger cargo bays for the fuel ) as here it really needs a boost. And the second one is the lock time, the lock time penalty that comes with the cloak needs to changed. I think with these 2 changes the black ops will be better in their roles and not be overpowered.
TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2008.04.10 13:22:00 - [112] Edited by: TZeer on 10/04/2008 13:22:56 1: Remove the locking penalty 2: Bigger cargo, or dedicated cargo for jump fuel. Widow might be the only BO that dont need any change regarding bonuses. Redeemer is also kinda nice with it`s trackingbonus, could maybe get changed to optimal? Sin and Phanter need some looking at their bonuses. Maybe give them the same bonus as their recons. Quote: reach hostile territory, (possibly jump friendly recons in to help out), warp around, collect intel, if found can use EW to get away, cloak, and resume. make BM's for future fleet battles, gather more intel, get active and inactive times, and them have a friendly black ops pilot open a cyno near by. jump out and give the intel out to FCs, commence attack at leasure. No need for a 500mil ship for this. Can easily be done better with a covert op frig. Removing any DPS from theese ships are bad m`kay...
Lord AtTiLAs Viziam	Posted - 2008.04.14 02:34:00 - [113] /signed! 200%
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.14 07:03:00 - [114] I think cov ops cloak would be a bit over the top. However some jump boost would be pretty good as that's the 'special' thing on this ship that makes it's unique and gives it it's role. 1) Fuel reduction so it could jump some reasonably sized recon cruiser gang around. 2) Ability to jump somewhere without needing cyno in destination (perhaps have specific hard to fit module for that) 3) Longer jump range (perhaps have specific hard to fit module for that, perhaps even make that module use some specific 'charges' to extend the jump range) 4) Ability to bridge non covert small ships (up to cruiser size perhaps) around. 5) Make maximum bridge distance function of jumping ship mass (so one could bridge frigates at significally longer distances than cruisers) Are some of the jump related ideas that pop up in my mind when I think about possible ways to boost black op ships. Main disadvantages currently are logistical challenges (they are needed, but in current form are a bit over the top) and utterly crap jump range (not possible to deploy your forces deep into enemy territory as current jump range is good for passing some specific choke point at best and choke points are not that big problem for cloakers in first place anyway unless they have very well organized gate camp present).
Spiderus Gallente Heretic Army	Posted - 2008.04.14 19:21:00 - [115] / Signed Soul you got some good points man!!! ____ Enforcer of of the NBSI policy
methosbhunter Caldari	Posted - 2008.04.15 05:56:00 - [116] long time pilot I agree Covert ops cloak is a must /Signed In blood -------------------------------- Under new ownership
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.04.15 07:49:00 - [117] In game development forum section in one of the threads about blak op I saw pretty interesting idea: Allow blocade runners to use black op bridges. That would allow it to act as fuel carrier for that group of covert ships.
Blackbolt	Posted - 2008.04.17 04:21:00 - [118] Edited by: Blackbolt on 17/04/2008 04:25:23 Everyone's worried what 1 tiny little CO BS (BlackOps) BS will do, lol Will hardly be the solopwnmobile. Want to see something deadly - 6 Curses, for example, will rip the arse out of anything in seconds flat...and you'll save yourself a whole lot of hassle. (they don't warp while cloaked)...and go home with money in the bank. The problem is everyone's afraid, incl CCP, who commonly pre-nerfs the crap out of everything. The whole concept of total balance is lost on me. I (for one) am totally sick of seeing everything balanced to nothingness. High skills and big bankroll requirement ships SHOULD get an advantage - not just on paper. I can cloak my T1 raven and add 7 Lrg Smartie and whack the sht out of just about anything provided I've got a big stash of 800's and a couple of cap injectors. And that overcomes the cloak targeting penalty....and that's just on scenario...FOF's are another....What's the big deal with giving BO some love? If you don't like going up against a cloaking BS, bring friends, or use that thing between your ears. The entire point is that it does have an advantage...and it is a friggin BS, for C's sake. As it stands now, the BlackOps is a novelty item - might as well be like a old novelty faction ship and sit in your hangar. For the skills and isk involved....add 300m and get a crrier and full insurance. (!) BlackOps needs love, so get on it CCP and grow a pair.
Nemtar Nataal Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.04.17 07:44:00 - [119] /signed Black Ops needs a overhaul to put them in the field where they wore suppose to be in the first plase. We dont see a lot of roaming gangs with cloaked ships and honestly thats cause this ships dont have any real advantage of bieng cloaked as its hard for them to move around cloaked. Now the Black Ops ship should have enabled them to move around and be more mobile but still cloaked, but it really havnt....we dont see gangs with 5 recons running point trying to find targets, setting up covert cynos and jumping in a bunch of Bombers to finish off the target cause of the limitations to the Black Ops field. So please good all mighty fix it...might actually pull some of the attention off nano roming gangs and give us a more tools to chose from...more exciting engagements...
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.04.19 05:26:00 - [120] bump
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:20:00 - [121] /bump
Spiderus Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.04.22 18:42:00 - [122] Still a great subject glad to see it being discussed so much. ____ Enforcer of of the NBSI policy
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.23 00:44:00 - [123] What about changing the jump bridge mechanic a little bit, to the extent that you want to promote coordinated black ops usage and ward off the "solopwnmobile" problem you could expand the usage of the jump bridge. Not only allow it to bridge into a cynojammed system but change the restriction on jump harmonics from a native stat to one based on a highslot mod. Something in the vein of a command co-processor but as a tool for covert movement and truly make the jump bridge a fearsome tool so a hauler with a tower inside or a few battleships could be used to surprise or feint. Right now only covert ops frigs, recons and other black ops can be bridged. I would suggest removing this arbitrary restriction and introduce a module that does nothing else but enables you to use the bridge at the expense of a high slot. I think the high slot is best since it doesn't undermine meds, already of premium value, or lows so tanking is relatively intact but instead it goes into a high removing the possibility of a cloak or damage on a battleship but reinforcing the vital synergy between the newly bridgeable ship and the black ops. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
The Twilight House Liao	Posted - 2008.04.23 02:52:00 - [124] /Signed After reading a lot about the Black Ops class and being very interesting in the potential of the new class, I would have to agree that some changes are needed in order to effectively use the Black Ops Ships. As mentioned in the CCP explanation of the Black Ops class the ships are designed to do espionage and sneak around not fight head to head with another ships nor act (in the case of the Widow) as a fancily painted Ewar boat. I think by readjusting some things on the ships a completely new style of warfare (away from the nano gangs) could be created. 1: Fighting Capabilities As many people have stated a cloaking Battleship should not be able to warp cloaked, and still hit like a battleship, that would in respect become a beast of overpowered goodness. But I donÆt believe the BO class should be oriented toward fighting so I suggest nerfing the drone bay, thereÆs no reason for it and the idea of deploying drones, waiting for drones, and then pulling them in isnÆt very stealthy and none of the BOÆs Counter parts have that ability, so keep the trend going. Also I suggest possibly taking away a launcher/turret slot or two to again lower the attacking ability, but in turn, with taking away the BOÆs offensive capabilities, it should be allowed to accompany its fellow stealth ships in cloaked warp. 2: Jump Range Problems With the Black Op ships I believe that in order to balance the very precarious position of a mini jump bridge on a BS, CCP should strip the bonus to offensive capabilities, ie. Ewar and turret, and replace them with jump bonus to range and efficiency but keep the cargo hold the same. And I know itÆs a big problem that the BO class canÆt get far and many people donÆt like it, but I donÆt think it is fair for a BS to get far behind enemy lines by ITSELF. So instead of increasing the BO cargo space CCP should allow blockade runners to jump through with the covert ops craft as well. This would solve the storage issue and wouldnÆt allow free roaming battleships to get far into enemy space by themselves. I mean for Pete Sake blockade runners are painted the same color and they would add a huge ôEspionage Fleetö aspect to the game by allowing small fleets to operate behind enemy lines for an extended period of time, which in retrospect is the definition of Espionage. Sorry for ranting but the potential Black Ops Espionage gang it what IÆve always wanted in eve and I think would add a lot more flavor to the pretty bland variety of fighting.
KronicMaster	Posted - 2008.04.23 07:42:00 - [125] / Signed Great idea for further improvements!
Chandilas Legionari	Posted - 2008.04.23 11:42:00 - [126] /signed nice ideas
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.04.23 17:40:00 - [127] Originally by: The Twilight /Signed After reading a lot about the Black Ops class and being very interesting in the potential of the new class, I would have to agree that some changes are needed in order to effectively use the Black Ops Ships. As mentioned in the CCP explanation of the Black Ops class the ships are designed to do espionage and sneak around not fight head to head with another ships nor act (in the case of the Widow) as a fancily painted Ewar boat. I think by readjusting some things on the ships a completely new style of warfare (away from the nano gangs) could be created. 1: Fighting Capabilities As many people have stated a cloaking Battleship should not be able to warp cloaked, and still hit like a battleship, that would in respect become a beast of overpowered goodness. But I donÆt believe the BO class should be oriented toward fighting so I suggest nerfing the drone bay, thereÆs no reason for it and the idea of deploying drones, waiting for drones, and then pulling them in isnÆt very stealthy and none of the BOÆs Counter parts have that ability, so keep the trend going. Also I suggest possibly taking away a launcher/turret slot or two to again lower the attacking ability, but in turn, with taking away the BOÆs offensive capabilities, it should be allowed to accompany its fellow stealth ships in cloaked warp. 2: Jump Range Problems With the Black Op ships I believe that in order to balance the very precarious position of a mini jump bridge on a BS, CCP should strip the bonus to offensive capabilities, ie. Ewar and turret, and replace them with jump bonus to range and efficiency but keep the cargo hold the same. And I know itÆs a big problem that the BO class canÆt get far and many people donÆt like it, but I donÆt think it is fair for a BS to get far behind enemy lines by ITSELF. So instead of increasing the BO cargo space CCP should allow blockade runners to jump through with the covert ops craft as well. This would solve the storage issue and wouldnÆt allow free roaming battleships to get far into enemy space by themselves. I mean for Pete Sake blockade runners are painted the same color and they would add a huge ôEspionage Fleetö aspect to the game by allowing small fleets to operate behind enemy lines for an extended period of time, which in retrospect is the definition of Espionage. Sorry for ranting but the potential Black Ops Espionage gang it what IÆve always wanted in eve and I think would add a lot more flavor to the pretty bland variety of fighting. You worry about them being overpowered but these abominable changes COMPLETELY neuter the ship class. Think, then post. They need more cap, slightly more fitting, slightly more resistance to be in line with the t1 cruiser to recon progression, and fundamentally a bonus to sensor recalibration.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.04.28 16:22:00 - [128] Personally, i think that Black Ops aren't ment to move around by them selves as the only Black ops in a fleet. Then it makes them more viable, in a group of 2 (minium) to 3. Also this decreases the amount of Fuel for the bridge, as a BO will inherently provide the fuel, in, and the other, the fuel out. or split the fuel req's 50/50, half the recons go through one, the other through the other. but great ideas guys, thanks for replying!! /Signed, (again)
12433412	Posted - 2008.04.28 20:57:00 - [129] don't take away damage bonus from the widow, it's the only caldari ship that does not suck in pvp, it is perfect as it is if you want a fat and expensive recon (for some mysterious reason), make a second version of the black op much like the force/combat recon combo _____________________________________________________ Beware of what you want, it might want you more!
CosmiXaos Caldari Reblious Colonial Miners Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2008.04.29 00:38:00 - [130] /Signed
Killerhound Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.04.29 22:08:00 - [131] /signed
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.04.30 19:10:00 - [132] bump
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr Heretic Army Heretic Nation	Posted - 2008.05.06 21:51:00 - [133] /bump
SoulOfAnnihilation 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.25 07:55:00 - [134] /bump
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.05.25 17:13:00 - [135] /signed CCP can we get a statement if you're going to be changing these ships for Empyrean Age? www.siigarikitawa.com
Killerhound Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:05:00 - [136] Well I think the teams are separated. Obviously there is one team for Empyrean age and one for the balancement. The one for the balancement must be busy or something. Well there is whole list of things that are about to become useless in the game... - Assault Frig - Triage Modules - Black ops So, why not simply give us some thoughts CCP what you plan to do to avoid me selling the Ship again and saying paying 2 mio SPs for nothing...
Re'con The Council	Posted - 2008.05.25 20:17:00 - [137] Originally by: Killerhound Well I think the teams are separated. Obviously there is one team for Empyrean age and one for the balancement. The one for the balancement must be busy or something. Well there is whole list of things that are about to become useless in the game... - Assault Frig - Triage Modules - Black ops So, why not simply give us some thoughts CCP what you plan to do to avoid me selling the Ship again and saying paying 2 mio SPs for nothing... ^^ what he said!
Yuri Mengeroth Very Bad Things	Posted - 2008.05.26 01:48:00 - [138] Signed. It is quite retahted that the BO BS can't use the COC.
SoulOfAnnihilation 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.05.28 08:44:00 - [139] /bump
Killerhound Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.28 12:08:00 - [140] Still missing the sweet taste of a GM illuminating me... We miss you guys, just tell us where the future will lead us...
Killerhound Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.05.30 12:22:00 - [141] /bump
Missuri	Posted - 2008.06.02 13:40:00 - [142] /signed
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba	Posted - 2008.06.02 14:14:00 - [143] /signed add covert cyno in cyno jammed system for pure sweetness
Xyzibit	Posted - 2008.06.02 14:34:00 - [144] /signed give black ops ability to fit the covert ops cloak at the expense of less dmg output! its a intel / support ship and no dmg dealer...
Missuri	Posted - 2008.06.03 11:10:00 - [145] Well why then use a black ops at all if it does just what a covert ops ship does like the buzzard?
KingOzar Brute Strength THORN Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.06 04:39:00 - [146] Give it a dedicated fuel bay alongside the reduced needs. I would like to see the Black Ops be able to travel long distances and still have enough fuel to return for true black ops missions. Along with bringing an actual fleet with you. /signed.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.06 04:47:00 - [147] Support rebalance in the CSM thread by clicking post, and remember to check the support button. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
SoulOfAnnihilation 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:43:00 - [148] /bump Any more Ideas? i personally think the thread has gone very well. but just imo.
Bodhisattvas Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:14:00 - [149] Latest patch notes and still no word on Black ops ?
Killerhound Stardust Heavy Industries Majesta Empire	Posted - 2008.06.14 13:26:00 - [150] I am just felt a bit alone. People are complaining nearly with one voice about those ships but still... no word from GMs or DEVs.. me feeling a bit left alone.
SoulOfAnnihilation 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.22 07:37:00 - [151] They just think that its not a big factor of the eve universe at the moment imo.
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.23 07:53:00 - [152] /Bump
Kil'Roy Minmatar The Rat Patrol	Posted - 2008.07.23 09:15:00 - [153] Originally by: SoulOfAnnihilation Edited by: SoulOfAnnihilation on 19/12/2007 20:14:09 (Original Post) 30 day old bump huh? Anyways, since you did... 1. I agree 2. I agree, no change needed. 3A. I agree, the Jump Fuel Conservation Skill should apply. 3B. I don't agree with this one. Don't give the BlackOps Scan probe bonuses, That is what a CovOps is for. This ship should not be given the role of any other ship. No Cloaking bonus either. I think 3A would be better. 4. I don't agree with this one either. I will explain below. With your senerio, why would you need any other type of cloaking ship? Everyone could be flying BlackOps and do nearly anything that needs to be done. The only reason you wouldn't is due to the isk you have, not the role you are trying to fill. It can move cloaked like the CovOps and Force Recon. It has scan probe bonues similar to the CovOps. It has EWAR abilities similar to the Force Recon. It gets it's DPS Nerf'd in trying to be the "Jack of all trades". From what you are saying, you could do most anything any of the other "stealh ships" could do. Bad idea in my book. I see the BlackOps as the "Battleship" version of the "Stealth Ships" and for no reason should the damage bonues be removed. They Bring the DPS, like a Battleship, but as the other "Stealth Ships", they can't do a Tank and DPS at the same time and should not be able to. These ships should be the "Battleships" of the "Stealth Ships". Not the "Bigger Recons" you suggest. They should be the backup to the other stealth ships. They should be able to hit hard, but giving them the ability to warp cloaked is too much.
Merrick Tolkien Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.23 09:44:00 - [154] /signed right now the black-ops bar the Widow serve no perpose, no use at all. They cant jump far enough to be of use scouting, they cant jump recons deep enough for them to be of use either. The only one with proper EW bonuses is the Widow. They all suffer from horrible scan res. For a suposed hi tech ship they are worse than their less high tech T1 brothers. If you applied the exact same principles of the Force recon (low dps, fewer weapons slots, more agility then Combat recon, low cap, paper thin, high EW and electronic abilites) to the black ops and gave it a covert cloak they would be fine IMO. I dont want to find i wasted my time training them, i want to fly one that works though, not wasting the ISK until then. Shadow Company
SoulOfAnnihilation Amarr 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.08.04 01:56:00 - [155] Bump
G'iencansu	Posted - 2008.09.08 16:40:00 - [156] /signed
Anna Dyser	Posted - 2008.09.30 03:33:00 - [157] /signed... IMHO, here's what a BO should be able to do: - Jump over short distances but with reduced fuel consumption; they should easily be able to get past over certain fortified positions, but let's not jump over the horse here - had to say it :P - it's still a battleship. Smaller ship, smaller generator, smaller consumption but also less proficient than the capital sized ones; - Concerning their damage and tanking capabilities, since their role as I see it is to take out vital targets behind enemy lines they should pack a strong punch (like normal BS) but be more fragile. The reasoning behind this is simple: trained for stealth, evasion, sabotage and/or assassination and not so much for normal combat. Let's say that when it comes to 1vs1 fights against other battleships, a black ops should preferably avoid the engagement (although I kinda see the black ops more like the leader of a small task force); - They should be able to move fast and be stealthy. One of the things that crossed my mind was combining the agility and speed bonuses from the sin and panther and making them a common BO skill bonus. Also I consider it is necessary for them to be able to use the covert ops cloaking device and as far as I am concerned, the 125% cloaked velocity bonus doesn't help that much (212m/s on Sin but I have yet to train BO to lvl5 and I'm having second thoughts about it). If it were up to me I would make it the Ghost Fleet's ship of choice. But it's not, so all I can do is hope that some changes will be made because at this moment, it is worth neither the money nor the time spent for training the required skills... Cheers! Anna Dyser
Zathrus	Posted - 2008.09.30 04:44:00 - [158] Yes for the following. 1) Warp while cloaked 2) Better Jump range 3) Same fire power as standard BS It is a T2 BO BS that requires a good deal of training.
Sardukarr	Posted - 2008.09.30 06:06:00 - [159] signed can we make some changes to the cov.ops frigs too? ability to scan cargo and fittings while cloaked maybe?
PMolkenthin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.09.30 10:42:00 - [160] I like a lot of the suggestions for boosting the black ops. ie. -Cov Ops Cloak -More fuel capacity/lower fuel consumption -Greater jump range -Jump to star (a bit drastic but could be interesting) -Force Recon bonus' (nos for amarr, scram + damps for gallente, webs for minmatar etc.) -Better resists However, all or some of these could risk the ship becoming overpowered and causing half the community to complain about them. (Imagine a Dominix jumping into your system without a cyno, warp to your belt cloaked, then scrambling at 60km, damping you to 5km lock range, launching 5x ogre II's at you, dual rep tanking you with 80% resists, then jumping out.) I hope CCP finds a good balance between making these ships worth the time and isk investment, without totally unbalancing everthing.
noc D	Posted - 2008.10.06 05:30:00 - [161] i would like to warp while cloak with widow but i have to admit... it would be really overpowered.
Xiliath JUDGE DREAD Inc. Tygris Alliance	Posted - 2008.10.06 13:19:00 - [162] I would just be happy with the cov. ops cloak. But fuel bay and range would be nice too.

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