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Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. Erm if you think that then thats why you die alot take rells class then come back when you know how the game works.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:48:00 - [62] /signed but let me add that such radical game changes are generally detrimental and demotivating ... people train for and invest in ships based on what those ships can do and how they work, you cannot change that every couple of months because someone is having "ideas" unless you want to swap out all your players every couple of months as well. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Lita F	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:48:00 - [63] Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:50:00 - [64] @Kane - As the current topic of nerfage hits extremely close to home, as far as killing off small gang warfare, I feel justified in raising a stink. Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. CCP is moving in the general direction of nerfing things that do not need to be nerfed, while ignoring underlying issues that affect gameplay significantly more than the current "whine-of-the-month" topic.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:54:00 - [65] it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works.
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:55:00 - [66] Originally by: Lita F Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that. Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m --- ---
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer @Kane - As the current topic of nerfage hits extremely close to home, as far as killing off small gang warfare, I feel justified in raising a stink. Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. CCP is moving in the general direction of nerfing things that do not need to be nerfed, while ignoring underlying issues that affect gameplay significantly more than the current "whine-of-the-month" topic. I'm a solo Pirate, I know where your coming from but combating blobs with nanos doesn't help when the blobs are nanos. It's a never ending self perpetuating cycle and something needs to be done, I'm not sure even the devs know what but result to kneejerk reactions to try and ba;lance things. Like I said, I got up in arms about the last nerf where my expensive rigs turned into useless lumps over night, I then realised there are more important things to focus on, like trying to play within the boundaries presented me. I'm not trying to be at odds with you guys on this issue as speed is something very close to my heart but it's just anopther aspect of a game which has so many avenues of combat to explore and enjoy. Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:56:00 - [68] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Sorry for a litle derailment, but when you say work hard, you mean in Eve, or in RL to pay a little bit extra for Eve? Granted you are able to buy those ships by selling gtc. But if you do, you lack the experience and the skills to fly it to the max. Without experience how to fly such specialised ships you'll die pretty quickly. I've seen faction fitted Machariels dying to a T2 Myrmidon cause the Machariel pilot wasn't experienced enough to keep out of overheated web range (<3 Heat btw :P).
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:59:00 - [69] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:37 Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:05 Originally by: Cthulhu My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. That is the stupiest comment in this whole thread. One faction battleship (probably with faction modules) tanking 4 other battleships for TEN (10) minutes?? OMG OMG OMG - the sky is falling!!!111 Nerf faction battleships!! Every n00b in a frig must be able to kill 1+ bil ships! If some people have good knowledge of what they are doing and others haven't and are pwned because of that ... what is the reaction?? Ask the losers themselves what they did wrong? What they might change next time? No!! They whine and run to the forums and scream UNFAIR and NERF. I call them idiots and those people ruin the game. It is the strength! of Eve that you can do better with some thinking than without some thinking. Eve is not just buying a ship and running around stupidly in a random gang and trying to gank something. It is about THINKING! You want to kill those incredible fast ships? Have nos ready (oh ... CCP nerfed nos - clever move) and neuts. How fast is a ship going with an empty cap? Be prepared! No one can expect to win against people who prepare themselves and work on strategies. And it would be also very unfair as well. Work and think before you go to pvp! But somehow from all the whines (and Z's comments) I am rather pessimistic for the future.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:00:00 - [70] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/12/2007 13:01:01 Originally by: that guy in the OP Dictors were never "super inties" apart from a few highly pimped examples. 5500m/s, 200 dps, web/scram, 5000 hit points, plus bubble, no polycarbons. With no rigs at all, its still > 5000m/s [Sabre, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I The fastest interceptor in the game [crusader] goes 7630 with tech 2 gear[2 od, 2 nano], has 1/3 the dps, no web, and 2/5ths the hit points. It also has no bubble and must use cap to do dps. it was a god damned super-inty
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:00:00 - [71] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 13:03:04 Originally by: 7shining7one7 it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works. Thats why they are nerfing speed. Nano's have killed small gang combat in 0.0 mostly, and nano ships are almost unbeatable in low sec. A Nano gang cannot be beaten other than by lag, or another nano gang. A Stupid nanogang may be beaten by smartbombers, but a average non-brain dead nano gang will massacre smartbombers and always keep transversal high to prevent sniping. Nano setups have gone way past what was reasonable. This is WCS methodology people - risk free pvp. Remember - going 1k/s used to be considered way fast. Now even even 3-4k/sec is considered slow. Nano is killing eve and should be nerfed asap. Or even better - have the scrams boosted to disable MicroWARPdrives so AB's become useful in PvP! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Toolivus	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:03:00 - [72] This is a ** thread. I don't agree with the dictor speed nerf, but getting it changed or looked at again isn't gonna be done by just flaming a person who might have been on the team that had a bit of a role in making the decision. Stop crying and flailing blindly at the nearest scapegoat and think. Think about why you don't agree and write that down. Think about the affect that the change will have on the game and write that down. Think about whether you agree about whether the motivation behind the change is valid, why, why not? Also, take the quoted parts in context, the whole live devblog was just a bunch of short frivolous answers to short, frivolous questions; not somewhere for any real insightful discussion. Make a post that addresses the issue rather than lighting fire to some straw man. Leave the "l2p n00b" bull** for local.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Wrong. A T2 speed-fitted Interdictor with no rigs flown by a pilot with no snake implants was never faster than a T2 speed-fitted Interceptor with no rigs flown by a pilot with no snake implants. If you don't see what I did there in that comparison, then you understand the issue as much as Zulupark does.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: 7shining7one7 it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works. Thats why they are nerfing speed. Nano's have killed small gang combat in 0.0 mostly. A Nano gang cannot be beaten other than by lag, or another nano gang. A Stupid nanogang may be beaten by smartbombers, but a average non-brain dead nano gang will massacre smartbombers and always keep transversal high to prevent sniping. Nano setups have gone way past what was reasonable. This is WCS methodology people - risk free pvp. Remember - going 1k/s used to be considered way fast. Now even even 3-4k/sec is considered slow. Nano is killing eve and should be nerfed asap. Or even better - have a scram disable MWD so AB's become useful! If you can't beat them whine enough so ccp beats them?
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Minokou My personal experience in flying dictors, as well as catching them, is that it's not trivial to fly one, or to catch one, but both are quite possible if one puts some thought into it. There is the problem, seems a lot of the newer playerbase dont wanna give some thought into anything. they just wanna grind ahead like they did in wow
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Gruxella Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It may be a game, but this game is something the devs work with and on for 40+ hours a week. 40 hours of tossing it seems (tossing coins to decide on the nerfs :P) Originally by: DeadDuck Nano/Overdrive combo is completly out of control... Every change CCP will do to the current state will be more then welcome... Except CCP nerfed the one ship which literally cannot hurt anything bigger than a t2 frigate. Ishtars, Curse, Vagabonds are all warping before decloak animation finishes and the only tool to stop them (bubbles, force them to mwd to gate or out-run your own nano-ship) just got nerfed. I would say they just made the real nano ships stronger.. Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. At least you don't up and claim it's the only bloody tactic. I am sick of that crap. Originally by: Kaar Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Maybe you should uncloak more often. Those snake implants you have aren't enough to compensate for protocloak's velocity penalty :P Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Wrong, totally bloody wrong. Why are you saying such stupid things? Circle the fastest (before Trinity): Claw / Sabre Crow / Flycatcher Crusader / Heretic Taranis / Eris Circle the fastest (after Trinity): Claw / Sabre Crow / Flycatcher Crusader / Heretic Taranis / Eris (assuming 2xod II + polycarbs) Originally by: Kaar Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m Less invention, more undocking, okay Kaar? =====
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Goumindong The fastest interceptor in the game [crusader] goes 7630 with tech 2 gear[2 od, 2 nano], has 1/3 the dps, no web, and 2/5ths the hit points. It also has no bubble and must use cap to do dps. Also has a significantly lower sig radius (both MWDing and not) therefore takes much less fire. And the only interdictor anyone ever mentions is the Sabre. I will admit that the Sabre (do to a combination of capless weapons + grid for an extender + faster base speed) was slightly overpowered for its intended role... so slightly nerf the one overpowered ship instead of kneejerking and ****ting all over every single speedfit ship like it appears they are planning on doing.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:17:00 - [78] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 23/12/2007 13:18:31 they nerf the nos and screw with amarr recon they nerf the damps and screw with gallente recon and making damps allmost useless. they want to make capital ships only use 5 drones when they cost billions to fly and years to train for. they nerf drones across the board. they now want to nerf speed making a ***load of ships obsolete that cost billions to fit in some cases and often flown by players with ridiculously high sp and isk for a full high grade set like snake. what's next.. ships do too much alpha, we must nerf them so it takes longer so it's more fun for the wow kiddies that join eve.. NO.. f'ing no.. ccp, sit down.. don't move a finger, and think about what exactly it is your doing.. your nerfing entire categories instead of the particular items that needs balancing (not uber nerfing just balancing) and it's frankly starting to look like a elephant in a glass store. Wops, i tipped a shelf giggle* and in regards to zulu park, dr. 7 recommends him about 14 x 24 hours worth of playtime with various skill sets to gain basic understanding of the game mechanics. and keep getting him more till he can pass a quiz with questions of common knowledge in eve. untill then keep him out of decision making. he will do more damage than good if he doesn't know how things really are ingame...
Coldim	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:23:00 - [79] It's sad to see that so many ppl has WoW attitude to EvE. There's no major imbalance with nanoships, few might be too fast(few that by no means are meant to be fast) but all in all it's fine. Vagabonds/matar ships are meant to be fast so why nerf them? Why nerf ships that are really fast with snakes+polycarbons+faction modules? Someone did pay a lot of ISK to gain certain result, it's not an average ship, it's meant to be special cause it has special modules on it. Sure with claymore/faction mods you can get some ships to move really fast but it's not like everyone has a claymore pilot+huge amount of ISK to play with every day. Havent seen ppl whine about faction fitted battleships(+slaves set) tank too hard. Difference is that you can blob such bs with 40 ppl that started to play day before that. It doesnt require much skills, does it? Catching nanoships is absolutly possible but you actually have to think about how to do it not just F1-F8. I'd like to play the game where player skill actually matters... Heart & Soul
Lita F	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:25:00 - [80] Originally by: Kaar Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. You either 1. Dont "do" fleet battles. 2. Only bubble gates/station and dock/jump. 3. Fight fleetbattles but your hostile BS force aint smart enough to shoot you. Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Not true. Plain speed t2 fitted ic was faster than plain t2 fitted dictor. If you disagree: prove it. Problem was snaked/rigged dictors that were faster than your tanked IC. Originally by: Kaar Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m You fly T1 ?
Minokou Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Gruxella Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. I didn't get the memo where Zulu was the official spokesperson of the dev-collective, I did see that after the whole carrier-nerf fiasko Zulu came up with another dev stepped and strongly stated that it was not the dev-collective Zulu was speaking for. Don't make this about nano ships, this issue in this post is specifically about Interdictors. Originally by: Gruxella Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. The whole point of this thread is to point out that the assumption that it is zero risk to bubble an entire fleet is dead wrong. Originally by: Gruxella Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It's hard to respect someone who has so very little knowledge about the actual game mechanics but is in a position to make policy decisions about what he clearly doesn't know that much about. Originally by: Kane Rizzel I hold the Interceptor speed record, you think I'd like to see the time I've spent training and isk invested to achieve that milestone just go poof. If I fly a T2 Crow I'm nigh untouchable against anything I choose to engage So what? Just because an extremely small percentage of the EVE population has chosen to specialize (oh noes! specialization in EVE!) in a certain aspect of the game, and they have the fiscal resources to support their specialization, doesn't mean that the entire field needs to be nerfed for the rest of us. Let's just be honest here, where does this dictor nerf come from? Please note, we are not talking about HACs, Interdictors is the topic of the day, Interdictors and what CCP Zulu-ish had to say about them. Which cap fleets got recently owned by dictors, didn't manage to counter them, and went to CCP to cry about it? I don't know, but the fact is that Interdictors have always been catchable if one did not rely on F1-F8. The fact also is that Interdictors promote diversity rather than just BS or Cap sized fleet slugfests. Interdictors are among the ever shrinking number of ships which make this game challenging (biggest problem to many imho, no EZ-mode!), interesting, and fun. I am sorry that someone's GTC financed cap fleet got owned by a single dictor, who went in, dropped a bubble, caught the entire fleet, prevented all of them from powering out of this oh-so-large bubble, and then soloed the entire fleet since he was going so fast that none of them could shoot him while he laid on the mad DPS. Again, sorry for your loss, but there are always more GTCs around, and CCP loved the GTC sales, so I'd say, boost Interdictors!
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:34:00 - [82] Mino, you need to be very specific about what your complaining about in the op, it comes across as your **ed off about a general Speed nerf, if it's just dictors being nerfed then I'd tend to agree with you on certain pointsbut not all. My Faction/Polycarb Sabres still go 12km/s but then the Sabre has always been the best interdictor to fly Originally by:** High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:37:00 - [83] i do hope CCP wount listen tho hes opinions.. hes bad for this game. that dev has probably minimal experiance whit eve... (hi sec bearing probably) and i hope to god hes not trying to change PvP aspect of the game. and yes this is a insult toward him.. because sofar what i have read of replys and blogs have been aful. ban me or whatever from the forums but i will fight every stupid idea he comes up until i get banned or not going into the game. so far from him: stupid idea for carrier... VERY stupid. now stupid idea for dictors.... like they arent bad enough atm whit heavy dictors than can tank uber dps and lowered speed what are dictors supposed to do ? tank... lol try tanking a frig. dictors are doing exactly what theya re supposed to do.. zip in.. pray that they get a bubble up before explodeing.. if thats done.. pray that you get out alive. ask any dedicated dictor pilot how many dictors he looses per month.... ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
BiggestT	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:45:00 - [84] LMAO ROFL HAHAHA the fact that interdictors are getting nerfed yet their training islonger than t2 cruisers is just a joke, its like hey, im gonna spend 80 days training dictors so i can get insta-popped in my slow ass paper thin shiny destroyer xD. Oh and the heavy dictor cld be the answet to our problems....or we cld just train a black ops in the same amount of time ahahahaha seriously, since when where dictors overpowered, ive never heard ne1 say omg dictors are ruining eve, its just like, hey lets nerf dreadnoughts...coz ah...some carebear got shot down this one time in 0.4 space lmao
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:52:00 - [85] People saying that dictors were faster than inty's should read this please: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=652223&page=2#55 I don't know why people keep bringing up that point, it's nonsense and I would expect more intelligent replies from some people.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:53:00 - [86] Insulting devs, i've got to admit it's a novel way to try and get the devs to listen to you since you know poeople don't like being insulted. If this was real life and you walked into someones business and started insulting them you'd get chucked out. But since this is the internet it somehow makes it okay? Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea.
Solara Astaris Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:54:00 - [87] Quote: the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can So can a gang of T1 fitted frigs. Let's nerf them also. A Merlin can kill any 'ceptor if he messes up and gets webs on himself. Let's nerf webs too. It's this kind of logic that is the problem. A problem with a ship or a module doesn't requires an entire item class adjustment. There are far to many dependent variables to take the easy way out. The person that mentioned out of the box thinking is right. Both in balancing and how one plays the game. Zulupark is the dev held up to us for these changes. It's part of that job to take the heat, or get out of the kitchen. Regardless if he made the changes by fiat or by comittee. Out.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:58:00 - [88] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. It's not insulting , just heavy sarcasm
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:58:00 - [89] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. Reading the OP, I'm pretty sure they insulted themselves.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Insulting devs, i've got to admit it's a novel way to try and get the devs to listen to you since you know poeople don't like being insulted. If this was real life and you walked into someones business and started insulting them you'd get chucked out. But since this is the internet it somehow makes it okay? Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. we are paying customers you utter fanboi.. what's gonna help ccp the most, that someone praises them when they screw up or someone who are frank with them and tells them what's up?

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