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CCP: Please Make Zulupark PLAY THE GAME before he does anything else!

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:50 Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:36 From a devchat log forwarded to me by a corp mate. Quote: Mindstar - But on to the question that was destined for Zulupark before he strangely disappeared from audio was the question about speed. Is it working as intended? Are ships too fast and what's up with the speed nerfof interdictors? Zulupark - There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Regarding interdictors themselves they were going really fast with proper fittings and it's ship that can bubble up huge amounts of space and it shouldn't be able to zoom in and out. Drop bubble, leave whole fleets into bubble and leave afterwards. Mindstar - Alright bubble up, indeed. On the question of the some of the other changes that are coming in the patch. Torpedoes saw massive change, they have been reduced in range and increased in damage. Is there anything happening with torpedoes? What exactly was the reasoning in particular behind the change? Zulupark - I'll just keep on going in here. I'm going to actually grab follow-up question "Isn't the intended role of interdictor to zoom about and drop bubbles". Yes the intended role is to drop bubbles, but it's not maybe in the intended role that they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. This is ... just .... OMG unbelievable. You read this and think "does this guy bloody play the game?" Zulupark wants to nerf interdictors because they zoom in and drop bubbles? That is what they are suppsed to do. What else are they going to do, drop the bubble and tank? I lost an interdictor once because I sneezed too hard in my pod once. They have the tank of a wet kleenex. Furthermore, his quote... Quote: Zulupark - ...snip... they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. This is just patently false. There are any number of ways of catching an interdictor and if the GM will log on in his interdictor I will have my corp demonstrate a few for him. This last weekend I caught a sabre with a bunch of frigs and we have killed dozens of them in numerous methods. Im sorry for being brutal but its just sad seeing posts like this from someone working on this game. Sad and scary that they might be listened to. If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. I would highly suggest you send this guy to play the game for a few months and think about tactics and then try to come back and suggest things that actually need being done such as repairing the corp interface, repairing amarr and other hot issues. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Caldrion Dosto Svea Rike Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:49:00 - [2] /signed. Halt the nerfage for a while and really think changes throe before implementing them.
Tammarr Trident RMBK Rough Necks	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:53:00 - [3] Edited by: Tammarr on 23/12/2007 10:53:46 The only reason for the new strict forum rules is so Zulupark can say things without getting hundreds of replies calling for numerous ingenious ways of poding him =) Nerfing carriers and most everything nice for a t2 freighter that should be tier 2 isnt balancing ccp :(
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:56:00 - [4] Agreed Rells. Put Zulupark on 2-3 months of active participation in a 0.0-alliance. And then let him come back. - Recruitment open again-
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:56:00 - [5] No more nerfing please seriously, stop chopping up the game CCP
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:57:00 - [6] /signed I just about laughed out loud when I read the comments regarding speed ships, interdictors in particular. Hey guys, speed mods already stack! Guess it's a good thing that a DEVELOPER knows about the game he is PAID to work on. And I'd like armor and shield reps to stack while we're at it, maybe guns should stack, eh? To keep some uber expensive gank-fit ship from being too powerful eh? Energy vampires and neuts should stack also, we can't have people running rampant and nuking other player's cap without the other player having a chance can we? I mean, we can't have people fitting interesting and innovative and non-standard setups can we? I mean, hell, why would anyone want to actually think tactically and plan out strategies to defeat your opponent instead of just dropping a massive blob on them? Speaking of blobs, it's funny that I haven't seen a single dev blog/topic/post regarding efforts in decreasing blob warfare lately... give up already guys? Why don't you take a look at all the changes you make that encourage blobbing before you try and "fix" it. Hint: A LOT OF RECENT CHANGES ARE BLATANTY BLOB-INDUCING. FFS CCP, you are completely neutering small gang and solo pvp in EVE, and it nearly brings a tear to my eye. The whiners complain about nano ships (in their immense stupidity and laziness) so CCP slates nano ships to get nerfed. I thought CCP as a company had more balls and respect for the game they created. For the love of god, have the people *responsible for creating and maintaining game balance actually play the game before fcking with it**.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:05:00 - [7] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:06:00 - [8] I'll offer Zulupark FREE PVP-BASIC class at any time and any alt he wants to take it on. Just PM me the alts name from the GM main. By taking the class perhaps he will realize there is more to the game than fitting guns and tank. God knows he needs the education. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Komen Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:08:00 - [9] /signed. I don't fly nanos, but I do try to think up tactical ways to catch them. Not just modules, but 'where should I be in the battlespace?' kind of stuff. I'm sorry that some people are too lazy, inept, or stup...lacking of experience to figure these things out, but that doesn't mean nerfs (or boosts) are always the answer. Now, looking at CCP's history of nerfing, it always seems they go overboard, and then maybe a few years later the things they nerfed get boosts, or different stats. I'm still hoping for the sake of my fellow post-humans of the amarrian inclination that their ships will, eventually, be more user-friendly without requiring a hundred odd skills trained to max. I'm not, though, gonna hold my breath. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ Redo the Domi hull for Trinity 2. Scrap the upside down shoe! Do it!
Balooshinakus Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:08:00 - [10] Edited by: Balooshinakus on 23/12/2007 11:11:12 /signed A lot of these proposed changes/nerfs/whatever are getting laughably bad. I agree that there are some things in Eve that need changing, but a lot of the changes proposed are so out of left field it's not even funny. I have NEVER heard anyone complain about interdictors speed, EVER, and then it's announced that dictors are getting double nerfed. I have never heard anyone complain about carriers, and then Zulupark wants to nerf them too.. I just don't see where Zulu is coming from on these changes? I don't mean to flame Zulu, but I honestly get the feeling that he's playing EFT Eve, not Eve-Online; that is to say, I think that Zulu just looks at numbers and doesn't actually try putting stuff into practice. Sure, on paper dictors are faster than Rapier/Huginns, in fact a lot of ships are, but I see our Rapier pilots getting tons of kills on ships that are "impossible" to catch on paper. I strongly feel that Zulu doesn't have a real understanding of how a lot of the changes he proposes will actually effect the game, because I don't think he really understands how the ships in question are currently implemented to begin with. Please stop f*cking up peoples ships without understanding how they actually work. Thanks.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:11:00 - [11] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 23/12/2007 11:12:25 Nice post Rells. I'm thinking ZP's carebear alt got ganked too many times in 0.0 "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:13:00 - [12] /Signed.. or fire all the DEV's and make the cleaning staff the new DEV's, Hell they can't do any worse. CCP: Were good at making empty promises..
Minokou Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:13:00 - [13] Edited by: Minokou on 23/12/2007 11:14:18 Originally by: Jonny JoJo A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. Have you actually ever encountered this happening, or are you just going off of what other people say or what some insanely unviable EFT fitting suggests may be possible? I am not trying to start any flame bull**, I am just really curious whether you had actual encounters with "uncatchable" dictors. My personal experience in flying dictors, as well as catching them, is that it's not trivial to fly one, or to catch one, but both are quite possible if one puts some thought into it. That's all I can contribute to this thread based on my own personal actual experience in flying Interdictors. Originally by:** Jonny JoJo And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. If this were true, which it is not, it would be an issue with Amarr, not with dictors. I would like to follow my CEO and extend an offer to you: Join one of our PVP-Basic classes in January for free, I'll sponsor you. I guarantee you that you will walk away with a better understanding of the game mechanics which will help you think about how to successfully counter Interdictors.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. You, sir, should go BACK to empire and stay there until you can think tactically. Im sorry but there are poeple that are creative in this game that will take you apart. Come on up and try that stuff on AGONY and we will send you home on the express route. Now to the ... inaccuracies is the nicest word I can think of ... in this post. My corp has killed DOZENS of snaked 12k+ ships. We have killed all manner of nano ships in all sorts of ways. They are not that hard to kill if you use your head. Furthermore, the basic principles of gunnery ellude you in the extreme. I have popped 8k/s crows pursiung my 3k/s zealot. How? Skill at piloting and knowledge about gunnery. Amarr guns work completely different than projectiles and if you dont know basic combat piloting to make that work for you then the fault is yours, not the game. Finally, there is one ship that Vagas and Rapiers RUN from. They hate it. Its their bane of their life. The Curse, an Amarr ship since you dont seem to know them well, is lethal to any nano ship. Vagabonds wont come close to them on a dare. Neither will any interceptor with half a brain. As for the interdictor "zooming" in, if he gets within 40 of me, he will find himself totally empty of cap and me tackling him and dropping enough drones on him to ruin his day. That is one of HUNDREDS of ways to catch nano ships. The problem is that people like you only see the small picture. You only see that your Harbinger fitted with beams wasnt able to hit that orbiting ceptor or dictor and scream "nerf nerf, my big ship should be able to hit you." The reality is that you have limited, if any, tactical knowledge in the game and that is why you die. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
The Herrick Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:16:00 - [15] Don't interdictors use the interceptor as a prerequisite skill? Surely they should be fast then or am I being a noob again?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Jonny JoJo nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. A Sabre doing 10km/s post-nerf is in a full set of high-grade Snakes (2+bil) and high grade speed implants (not sure, can't afford them, several hundred mil) AND faction fit polycarb rigged. So roughly 2.5-3 bil to get a Sabre (dies very fast to any sniper) doing a "mere" 10km/s... It better be fcking hard to kill. You are a complete fool if you think that something that cost 2.5+ bil should be as simple to kill as bringing "one or two webbers". Originally by:* Jonny JoJo And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. Que? Why should Amarr get a web-bonus ship, their roles are cap-denial and tracking disruption. Your lasers also hit out to 25k+ using the short range turrets therefore your ignorant and biased whine is irrelevant due to your lack of knowledge. If it takes a gang of nano ships to kill the BS, where is the BS's friends? Snipers hurt nano ships quite badly. There's that magic 10k/s number again. I have an idea... that you have never flown a nano ship before, and have no fcking clue what you are talking about. To get ANY ship up to 10k/s now, you need a fully rigged setup with either* a faction MWD or a full Snake set (both very, very expensive... and put on a paper ship). Once again you utter ignorance of how the game works renders your post null and void. Thank you for playing, tune in next time.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:20:00 - [17] Originally by: The Herrick Don't interdictors use the interceptor as a prerequisite skill? Surely they should be fast then or am I being a noob again? You arent a noob. The interdictor's tank is its speed. You slow them down and they go down faster than an elevator with a broken cable. An interdictor can not do much more than bubble and fly. Its guns are fluff as people who hang out in range of an enemy in an interdictor find out. If you want to live in them, know your role. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Akira Nakashima	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:24:00 - [18] lol, taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber... Infact no wait, you aren't even a bomber so in effect you would just be a giant flying lump of suicide xD
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:25:00 - [19] You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. But then the Flycatcher was really screwed over the speed nerf, only having the one low slot.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Akira Nakashima lol, taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber... Infact no wait, you aren't even a bomber so in effect you would just be a giant flying lump of suicide xD I'll admit I lol CCP: Were good at making empty promises.. Originally by: Akira Nakashima Taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber. Infact no wait, you ar
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:27:00 - [21] If you wanted to combat the speed problems you could do so easily by just reintroducing mines. Make them deployable and they would take up space like a warp bubble. You'd have small, medium and large minefields. Each available in the four damage types. You could give them FoF recognition such that they would ignore friendly ships and attack enemy ships. Make them so folks can build them. They could be removed by attacking them. They possibly could also have a time limit. Say they disappear after 7 days and have to be replaced. You could then anchor them in a system you have sovereignty over. They then would do damage to enemy/neutral ships every minute. Just how I think it would be solved better than the nerfs, probably would help against blobs too. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:31:00 - [22] Keep in mind a few things: 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. 2. The proposed change is less a view on interdictors, but more on the concept of "nano", which in all honesty has gone overboard. 3. The trouble is that EVE is quite a complex game, where one change can have drastic effects on many other elements. Addressing the "nano" concept as such is going to require some very creative and out of the box thinking, if game elements which also rely on a degree of speed for survivability are to remain untouched. Trouble is, the knife will always cut more then one slice either way.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Mecinia Lua If you wanted to combat the speed problems you could do so easily by just reintroducing mines. Make them deployable and they would take up space like a warp bubble. You'd have small, medium and large minefields. Each available in the four damage types. You could give them FoF recognition such that they would ignore friendly ships and attack enemy ships. Make them so folks can build them. They could be removed by attacking them. They possibly could also have a time limit. Say they disappear after 7 days and have to be replaced. You could then anchor them in a system you have sovereignty over. They then would do damage to enemy/neutral ships every minute. Just how I think it would be solved better than the nerfs, probably would help against blobs too. Mobile Webification Bubbles and the variant for Launchers would be more elegant, tbh. We had mines in EVE, they were really really bad :P We now have bombs, which are more managable. I'm much more in favour of furthering the use of Bombs through skills and modules, or better, bubbles with a webification effect.
Balooshinakus Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher.
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:34:00 - [25] Signed NURF THE NURF BAT comon all these nurfs r sh1ty for game tbh we understand some things need nurfing but wtf seem's the GM's r so bord they just making any damn nurf they want or whatever the****'s who probly dont pvp cry for PANSY'S EvE a top game best ive played pls stop messing with it yea my spelling sux sue me
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:35:00 - [26] Either: a) CCP wanted Heavy Interdictors to take off or b) Zulupark is an idiot =====
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:36:00 - [27] I'll have a b) please.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:40:00 - [28] /signed
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Balooshinakus Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher. And they still didnt even change their mass so the flycatcher still takes longer to cold warp than most non-caldari cruisers. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Exactly how did I ignore their "reasoning" when I addressed everything they said. His "reasoning" was faulty on so many ways it is just astounding. Its like the "reasoning" of someone who knows nothing about tactics or piloting skills or the "reasoning" of a person empire bound without any idea of how real combat works. But the reality is that it is the "reasoning" of someone who knows little of the game other than pure numbers which reflect only a very small part of the picture. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!

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