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Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Not ignored, more like recognized as completely idiotic. Once again - have Zulupark actually play the game and then allow him to screw with the balance. At this point a completely new EVE player who plays for 6 months, experiences both empire and 0.0, ratting, mining, and missioning could do a damn better job of "balancing" the game than this guy who has obviously not ever physically played.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Virtuozzo 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. Wrong. A successful MMO, once live, is designed and altered on the micro level through a combination of community and developer input. While the developers have the absolute tyranny of ownership of the code / servers, ignoring the will of the playerbase results in... well, SWG. There has to be give and take. I need to train Advanced Sarcasm up a level >.< The statement made was a statement advertised by CCP, and they are correct in that statement. It is their game, their control, their focus. Obviously you are correct as well, the game is a commercial venture and marketing rapidly becomes a critical element for more then just advertising. The trouble is the complexity of the game and venture alike, oversight quickly becomes difficult to maintain.
Gruxella Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:47:00 - [34] You really shouldn't be bashing zulu. Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It may be a game, but this game is something the devs work with and on for 40+ hours a week. It was mentioned they even talk about these issues after work at the bar. The devs put a lot of effort into making this game great. They know what they're doing, and just because you don't agree; it doesn't make you right. Have some faith. Welcome to Eve. ---- VHI - We Haul Your Cargo For Free ---- We Miss you Red 7.
Malashek Vatrii Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:47:00 - [35] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Not ignored, more like recognized as completely idiotic. Once again - have Zulupark actually play the game and then allow him to screw with the balance. At this point a completely new EVE player who plays for 6 months, experiences both empire and 0.0, ratting, mining, and missioning could do a damn better job of "balancing" the game than this guy who has obviously not ever physically played. And it's obviously JUST Zulupark making the nerfs. Lol. The nerfs are good anyway, mm'kay? ***** [url=http://www.kaminjosvig.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=34513] [/url]
Ari Chu Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:48:00 - [36] One possible answer would be to just do a blanket increase to all Scan Resolutions - like by 100% for all ships. With a high scan resolution - a tackling frig would stand a chance of locking, Scramming, and Webbing a nano Ishtar/Vaga/Dictor/whatever before they warped off. It would still allow players to go WTFOMG speeds - but would make it more feasible to actually catch them if a tackler was quick on the trigger. The day I saw a 20 man gate camp with 6 interceptor dedicated tacklers.... all KNOWING that a Nano-Ishtar was coming through the gate.. yet not a single person was able to lock the Ishtar before it entered warp -- that was the day I was 100% convinced that nano-ships either need nerfing, or everything else needs buffing. Increase Scan Resolutions -- How would that impact the nano issue? --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Post lacking in any logic, argument or discussion. Please try again using some words other than "fail" to actually explain your point. ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK. My ceptor goes 10km/s my Ishtar with gang bonus goes 6 km/s. Hardly Interceptor speed. Just because i can solo your poorly fitted carebear raven doesn't mean something needs to be nerfed. Get a friends with huggins or stay in empire.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK. My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Please tell me how a Vagabond is "uber" and a "solopwnmobile". I run more often than I actually end up fighting anything (mainly due to the blob mentality) and when I do find something to fight, it's a random chance whether I can kill it or not because it's either "a) slow and heavily tanked, can't break it so I leave" or "b) capable of doing enough damage to me to make me leave". The actual target list for a solo Vagabond pilot these days is quite a bit slimmer than it used to be, mainly due to the unnecessary and unwanted HP-buff but that's another thread. What all of you ignorant carebears refuse to allow yourselves to acknowledge is that when you speed fit a ship, speed is the only tank you have. And due to the way that webbers currently work, if you make the slightest error in piloting you will die. Let's add in the fact that to reach "ungodly fast speeds" you need horrifically expensive implants and modules and rigs, all of which go "poof" if you make an error while piloting. The energy required to kill or capture any ship should be proportionate to the energy required to train for, fit, and fly that ship. There are easily a dozen different ways to catch and/or scare away a nano ship/gang. AGONY uses tactics often to great effect on enemy nano gangs. What you need to do is step outside your lazy way of thinking and actually think about how to kill or scare off nanoships, it's really not that hard. But I suppose gank and tank online is the simple option, so that's what you whine and try to achieve.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Balooshinakus Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher. And they still didnt even change their mass so the flycatcher still takes longer to cold warp than most non-caldari cruisers. Well, this is a great example of the opinion I now hold of Zulupark. There were many, many threads in the Game Development forum with many details and examples of why nerfing the interdictor base speed was just wrong. Zulu based his decision, as far as I can tell, on the fact that a pilot with snake implants flying a polycarboned Sabre outran a plain T2 interceptor. That's akin to nerfing Battleship speeds because a BS with an MWD outruns a non-MWD cruiser. Interdictors have near-frigate durability, with a near-cruiser signature radius, and no T2 resists like AFs and HACs. Much like a frigate, they can't be tanked with any reasonable degree of success. They can't quickly kill ships that directly threaten them. The only form of defence an interdictor has is speed. And the first post in this thread illustrates the shortsightedness and lack of comprehension of the whole picture possessed by Zulu: Quote: Zulupark - ...in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. Note the bolded part. Interdictors were only one entry in the list of ships that do that. Yet only Interdictors had their base speeds reduced.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Gruxella You really shouldn't be bashing zulu. The complete lack of any knowledge of ingame play requires me to scoff at his attempts to break EVE. Originally by: Gruxella Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. And that example was completely unrealistic in every way possible. Maybe if "x" "y" and "z" variable are perfect, and the stars are aligned like "x", and a goat carcass with one horn is found in a hollow on the northern side of Volcano "x" on the island nation of "x" that example might occur. ...riiiiight... You send a dictor, any dictor, even a pre-nerf Sabre at an AGONY fleet and that dictor will die a swift, painful death. Why should interdictor pilots suffer even more ship losses (always called primary, paper thin) due to lack of game mechanic knowledge? As for the "know what they're doing comment... Amarr, blobs, lag, corp interface, hundreds of bugs that have existed for years, T2 BPOs, etc... Need I say more?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Malashek Vatrii And it's obviously JUST Zulupark making the nerfs. Lol. The nerfs are good anyway, mm'kay? 5% of nerfs are actually needed. The rest are unnecessary, kneejerk reactions that are usually overdone anyway, rendering the targeted mod/ship/race broken, crying, and tossed aside in the corner because they are completely useless now. I'm much more in favor of slightly buffing everything else to compensate for a single slightly over-powered mechanic.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Pitt Bull Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. You are the clueless one, actually. If you think that combat in EVE consists of merely pressing "F1-F8" then you should come take PVP-BASIC and open your eyes.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:37 Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:05 Originally by: Cthulhu My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:13:00 - [46] speed nerf = GOOD!
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail.
Cheenie	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. QFE
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! meh, I was going to post something enlightening but just wanted to say you're wrong on that speed claim. Don't need the Claymore to hit that speed with the Snake/Faction/Polycarb Inty. Nerf away I say Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:24:00 - [50] Zulupark: Did you pick these changes out of a hat? _
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail. The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Kane Rizzel meh, I was going to post something enlightening but just wanted to say you're wrong on that speed claim. Don't need the Claymore to hit that speed with the Snake/Faction/Polycarb Inty. Nerf away I say My apologies for that inaccurate post, you do indeed "only" need a high grade snake set, faction mwd, and polycarbs to reach 19k/s. That's still a hell of an investment in a paper thin ship that can easily be trapped, outmaneuvered, and instapops when a web lands on it. I had expected an SHC poster to be slightly more intelligent regarding the ramifications of yet more speed nerfage, and what negative effects it will have on small gang and solo pvp.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:33:00 - [53] Nano/Overdrive combo is completly out of control... Every change CCP will do to the current state will be more then welcome...
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:35:00 - [54] Edited by: N''irrti on 23/12/2007 12:35:13 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail. The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Estephania The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? Your problem was, you merely tried to out gank+tank the pimped ship. Try using tactics, perhaps a neut battleship to crash his tank, or an ECM boat to make sure he can't damage you while you pound away. The older, richer, more experienced player in his pimped ship was doing nothing wrong by laughing at your attempt to kill him. It was you who was not using the appropriate tactics to kill him. Your constant drivel about "god like status" is annoying in the extreme. No ship in this game is unkillable (see: titan kills) and unbeatable - people simply need to adapt and strategize an appropriate method of dealing with the problem instead of thinking lazily and just bringing out their generic gank+tank fleet fit BS. Then they wonder why they get steamrolled.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:39:00 - [56] Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Or some GTC cards ...
Tate Aoko Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Estephania The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? Yes. A fool and their money are easily parted. Nothing is sweeter than opening a wreck and finding some shiny bling (which you then sell back to them ofc).
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:40:00 - [58] Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Sorry for a litle derailment, but when you say work hard, you mean in Eve, or in RL to pay a little bit extra for Eve?
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:44:00 - [60] /signed It's really worrying. A random goonfleet member promoted to dev would have more respect for game balance.

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