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CCP: Please Make Zulupark PLAY THE GAME before he does anything else!

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:42:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:50 Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:36 From a devchat log forwarded to me by a corp mate. Quote: Mindstar - But on to the question that was destined for Zulupark before he strangely disappeared from audio was the question about speed. Is it working as intended? Are ships too fast and what's up with the speed nerfof interdictors? Zulupark - There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Regarding interdictors themselves they were going really fast with proper fittings and it's ship that can bubble up huge amounts of space and it shouldn't be able to zoom in and out. Drop bubble, leave whole fleets into bubble and leave afterwards. Mindstar - Alright bubble up, indeed. On the question of the some of the other changes that are coming in the patch. Torpedoes saw massive change, they have been reduced in range and increased in damage. Is there anything happening with torpedoes? What exactly was the reasoning in particular behind the change? Zulupark - I'll just keep on going in here. I'm going to actually grab follow-up question "Isn't the intended role of interdictor to zoom about and drop bubbles". Yes the intended role is to drop bubbles, but it's not maybe in the intended role that they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. This is ... just .... OMG unbelievable. You read this and think "does this guy bloody play the game?" Zulupark wants to nerf interdictors because they zoom in and drop bubbles? That is what they are suppsed to do. What else are they going to do, drop the bubble and tank? I lost an interdictor once because I sneezed too hard in my pod once. They have the tank of a wet kleenex. Furthermore, his quote... Quote: Zulupark - ...snip... they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. This is just patently false. There are any number of ways of catching an interdictor and if the GM will log on in his interdictor I will have my corp demonstrate a few for him. This last weekend I caught a sabre with a bunch of frigs and we have killed dozens of them in numerous methods. Im sorry for being brutal but its just sad seeing posts like this from someone working on this game. Sad and scary that they might be listened to. If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. I would highly suggest you send this guy to play the game for a few months and think about tactics and then try to come back and suggest things that actually need being done such as repairing the corp interface, repairing amarr and other hot issues. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Caldrion Dosto Svea Rike Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:49:00 - [2] /signed. Halt the nerfage for a while and really think changes throe before implementing them.
Tammarr Trident RMBK Rough Necks	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:53:00 - [3] Edited by: Tammarr on 23/12/2007 10:53:46 The only reason for the new strict forum rules is so Zulupark can say things without getting hundreds of replies calling for numerous ingenious ways of poding him =) Nerfing carriers and most everything nice for a t2 freighter that should be tier 2 isnt balancing ccp :(
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:56:00 - [4] Agreed Rells. Put Zulupark on 2-3 months of active participation in a 0.0-alliance. And then let him come back. - Recruitment open again-
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:56:00 - [5] No more nerfing please seriously, stop chopping up the game CCP
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 10:57:00 - [6] /signed I just about laughed out loud when I read the comments regarding speed ships, interdictors in particular. Hey guys, speed mods already stack! Guess it's a good thing that a DEVELOPER knows about the game he is PAID to work on. And I'd like armor and shield reps to stack while we're at it, maybe guns should stack, eh? To keep some uber expensive gank-fit ship from being too powerful eh? Energy vampires and neuts should stack also, we can't have people running rampant and nuking other player's cap without the other player having a chance can we? I mean, we can't have people fitting interesting and innovative and non-standard setups can we? I mean, hell, why would anyone want to actually think tactically and plan out strategies to defeat your opponent instead of just dropping a massive blob on them? Speaking of blobs, it's funny that I haven't seen a single dev blog/topic/post regarding efforts in decreasing blob warfare lately... give up already guys? Why don't you take a look at all the changes you make that encourage blobbing before you try and "fix" it. Hint: A LOT OF RECENT CHANGES ARE BLATANTY BLOB-INDUCING. FFS CCP, you are completely neutering small gang and solo pvp in EVE, and it nearly brings a tear to my eye. The whiners complain about nano ships (in their immense stupidity and laziness) so CCP slates nano ships to get nerfed. I thought CCP as a company had more balls and respect for the game they created. For the love of god, have the people *responsible for creating and maintaining game balance actually play the game before fcking with it**.
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:05:00 - [7] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:06:00 - [8] I'll offer Zulupark FREE PVP-BASIC class at any time and any alt he wants to take it on. Just PM me the alts name from the GM main. By taking the class perhaps he will realize there is more to the game than fitting guns and tank. God knows he needs the education. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Komen Gallente Trinity Nova	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:08:00 - [9] /signed. I don't fly nanos, but I do try to think up tactical ways to catch them. Not just modules, but 'where should I be in the battlespace?' kind of stuff. I'm sorry that some people are too lazy, inept, or stup...lacking of experience to figure these things out, but that doesn't mean nerfs (or boosts) are always the answer. Now, looking at CCP's history of nerfing, it always seems they go overboard, and then maybe a few years later the things they nerfed get boosts, or different stats. I'm still hoping for the sake of my fellow post-humans of the amarrian inclination that their ships will, eventually, be more user-friendly without requiring a hundred odd skills trained to max. I'm not, though, gonna hold my breath. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ Redo the Domi hull for Trinity 2. Scrap the upside down shoe! Do it!
Balooshinakus Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:08:00 - [10] Edited by: Balooshinakus on 23/12/2007 11:11:12 /signed A lot of these proposed changes/nerfs/whatever are getting laughably bad. I agree that there are some things in Eve that need changing, but a lot of the changes proposed are so out of left field it's not even funny. I have NEVER heard anyone complain about interdictors speed, EVER, and then it's announced that dictors are getting double nerfed. I have never heard anyone complain about carriers, and then Zulupark wants to nerf them too.. I just don't see where Zulu is coming from on these changes? I don't mean to flame Zulu, but I honestly get the feeling that he's playing EFT Eve, not Eve-Online; that is to say, I think that Zulu just looks at numbers and doesn't actually try putting stuff into practice. Sure, on paper dictors are faster than Rapier/Huginns, in fact a lot of ships are, but I see our Rapier pilots getting tons of kills on ships that are "impossible" to catch on paper. I strongly feel that Zulu doesn't have a real understanding of how a lot of the changes he proposes will actually effect the game, because I don't think he really understands how the ships in question are currently implemented to begin with. Please stop f*cking up peoples ships without understanding how they actually work. Thanks.
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:11:00 - [11] Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 23/12/2007 11:12:25 Nice post Rells. I'm thinking ZP's carebear alt got ganked too many times in 0.0 "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:13:00 - [12] /Signed.. or fire all the DEV's and make the cleaning staff the new DEV's, Hell they can't do any worse. CCP: Were good at making empty promises..
Minokou Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:13:00 - [13] Edited by: Minokou on 23/12/2007 11:14:18 Originally by: Jonny JoJo A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. Have you actually ever encountered this happening, or are you just going off of what other people say or what some insanely unviable EFT fitting suggests may be possible? I am not trying to start any flame bull**, I am just really curious whether you had actual encounters with "uncatchable" dictors. My personal experience in flying dictors, as well as catching them, is that it's not trivial to fly one, or to catch one, but both are quite possible if one puts some thought into it. That's all I can contribute to this thread based on my own personal actual experience in flying Interdictors. Originally by:** Jonny JoJo And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. If this were true, which it is not, it would be an issue with Amarr, not with dictors. I would like to follow my CEO and extend an offer to you: Join one of our PVP-Basic classes in January for free, I'll sponsor you. I guarantee you that you will walk away with a better understanding of the game mechanics which will help you think about how to successfully counter Interdictors.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. You, sir, should go BACK to empire and stay there until you can think tactically. Im sorry but there are poeple that are creative in this game that will take you apart. Come on up and try that stuff on AGONY and we will send you home on the express route. Now to the ... inaccuracies is the nicest word I can think of ... in this post. My corp has killed DOZENS of snaked 12k+ ships. We have killed all manner of nano ships in all sorts of ways. They are not that hard to kill if you use your head. Furthermore, the basic principles of gunnery ellude you in the extreme. I have popped 8k/s crows pursiung my 3k/s zealot. How? Skill at piloting and knowledge about gunnery. Amarr guns work completely different than projectiles and if you dont know basic combat piloting to make that work for you then the fault is yours, not the game. Finally, there is one ship that Vagas and Rapiers RUN from. They hate it. Its their bane of their life. The Curse, an Amarr ship since you dont seem to know them well, is lethal to any nano ship. Vagabonds wont come close to them on a dare. Neither will any interceptor with half a brain. As for the interdictor "zooming" in, if he gets within 40 of me, he will find himself totally empty of cap and me tackling him and dropping enough drones on him to ruin his day. That is one of HUNDREDS of ways to catch nano ships. The problem is that people like you only see the small picture. You only see that your Harbinger fitted with beams wasnt able to hit that orbiting ceptor or dictor and scream "nerf nerf, my big ship should be able to hit you." The reality is that you have limited, if any, tactical knowledge in the game and that is why you die. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
The Herrick Gallente Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:16:00 - [15] Don't interdictors use the interceptor as a prerequisite skill? Surely they should be fast then or am I being a noob again?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Jonny JoJo nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. A Sabre doing 10km/s post-nerf is in a full set of high-grade Snakes (2+bil) and high grade speed implants (not sure, can't afford them, several hundred mil) AND faction fit polycarb rigged. So roughly 2.5-3 bil to get a Sabre (dies very fast to any sniper) doing a "mere" 10km/s... It better be fcking hard to kill. You are a complete fool if you think that something that cost 2.5+ bil should be as simple to kill as bringing "one or two webbers". Originally by:* Jonny JoJo And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. Que? Why should Amarr get a web-bonus ship, their roles are cap-denial and tracking disruption. Your lasers also hit out to 25k+ using the short range turrets therefore your ignorant and biased whine is irrelevant due to your lack of knowledge. If it takes a gang of nano ships to kill the BS, where is the BS's friends? Snipers hurt nano ships quite badly. There's that magic 10k/s number again. I have an idea... that you have never flown a nano ship before, and have no fcking clue what you are talking about. To get ANY ship up to 10k/s now, you need a fully rigged setup with either* a faction MWD or a full Snake set (both very, very expensive... and put on a paper ship). Once again you utter ignorance of how the game works renders your post null and void. Thank you for playing, tune in next time.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:20:00 - [17] Originally by: The Herrick Don't interdictors use the interceptor as a prerequisite skill? Surely they should be fast then or am I being a noob again? You arent a noob. The interdictor's tank is its speed. You slow them down and they go down faster than an elevator with a broken cable. An interdictor can not do much more than bubble and fly. Its guns are fluff as people who hang out in range of an enemy in an interdictor find out. If you want to live in them, know your role. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Akira Nakashima	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:24:00 - [18] lol, taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber... Infact no wait, you aren't even a bomber so in effect you would just be a giant flying lump of suicide xD
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:25:00 - [19] You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. But then the Flycatcher was really screwed over the speed nerf, only having the one low slot.
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:26:00 - [20] Originally by: Akira Nakashima lol, taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber... Infact no wait, you aren't even a bomber so in effect you would just be a giant flying lump of suicide xD I'll admit I lol CCP: Were good at making empty promises.. Originally by: Akira Nakashima Taking the speed away from an interdictor would basicly make you a suicide bomber. Infact no wait, you ar
Mecinia Lua Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:27:00 - [21] If you wanted to combat the speed problems you could do so easily by just reintroducing mines. Make them deployable and they would take up space like a warp bubble. You'd have small, medium and large minefields. Each available in the four damage types. You could give them FoF recognition such that they would ignore friendly ships and attack enemy ships. Make them so folks can build them. They could be removed by attacking them. They possibly could also have a time limit. Say they disappear after 7 days and have to be replaced. You could then anchor them in a system you have sovereignty over. They then would do damage to enemy/neutral ships every minute. Just how I think it would be solved better than the nerfs, probably would help against blobs too. Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:31:00 - [22] Keep in mind a few things: 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. 2. The proposed change is less a view on interdictors, but more on the concept of "nano", which in all honesty has gone overboard. 3. The trouble is that EVE is quite a complex game, where one change can have drastic effects on many other elements. Addressing the "nano" concept as such is going to require some very creative and out of the box thinking, if game elements which also rely on a degree of speed for survivability are to remain untouched. Trouble is, the knife will always cut more then one slice either way.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Mecinia Lua If you wanted to combat the speed problems you could do so easily by just reintroducing mines. Make them deployable and they would take up space like a warp bubble. You'd have small, medium and large minefields. Each available in the four damage types. You could give them FoF recognition such that they would ignore friendly ships and attack enemy ships. Make them so folks can build them. They could be removed by attacking them. They possibly could also have a time limit. Say they disappear after 7 days and have to be replaced. You could then anchor them in a system you have sovereignty over. They then would do damage to enemy/neutral ships every minute. Just how I think it would be solved better than the nerfs, probably would help against blobs too. Mobile Webification Bubbles and the variant for Launchers would be more elegant, tbh. We had mines in EVE, they were really really bad :P We now have bombs, which are more managable. I'm much more in favour of furthering the use of Bombs through skills and modules, or better, bubbles with a webification effect.
Balooshinakus Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher.
Esk Esme Caldari High4Life	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:34:00 - [25] Signed NURF THE NURF BAT comon all these nurfs r sh1ty for game tbh we understand some things need nurfing but wtf seem's the GM's r so bord they just making any damn nurf they want or whatever the****'s who probly dont pvp cry for PANSY'S EvE a top game best ive played pls stop messing with it yea my spelling sux sue me
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:35:00 - [26] Either: a) CCP wanted Heavy Interdictors to take off or b) Zulupark is an idiot =====
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:36:00 - [27] I'll have a b) please.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:40:00 - [28] /signed
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Balooshinakus Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher. And they still didnt even change their mass so the flycatcher still takes longer to cold warp than most non-caldari cruisers. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Exactly how did I ignore their "reasoning" when I addressed everything they said. His "reasoning" was faulty on so many ways it is just astounding. Its like the "reasoning" of someone who knows nothing about tactics or piloting skills or the "reasoning" of a person empire bound without any idea of how real combat works. But the reality is that it is the "reasoning" of someone who knows little of the game other than pure numbers which reflect only a very small part of the picture. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:44:00 - [31] Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Not ignored, more like recognized as completely idiotic. Once again - have Zulupark actually play the game and then allow him to screw with the balance. At this point a completely new EVE player who plays for 6 months, experiences both empire and 0.0, ratting, mining, and missioning could do a damn better job of "balancing" the game than this guy who has obviously not ever physically played.
Virtuozzo IRON Tech Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Virtuozzo 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. Wrong. A successful MMO, once live, is designed and altered on the micro level through a combination of community and developer input. While the developers have the absolute tyranny of ownership of the code / servers, ignoring the will of the playerbase results in... well, SWG. There has to be give and take. I need to train Advanced Sarcasm up a level >.< The statement made was a statement advertised by CCP, and they are correct in that statement. It is their game, their control, their focus. Obviously you are correct as well, the game is a commercial venture and marketing rapidly becomes a critical element for more then just advertising. The trouble is the complexity of the game and venture alike, oversight quickly becomes difficult to maintain.
Gruxella Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:47:00 - [34] You really shouldn't be bashing zulu. Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It may be a game, but this game is something the devs work with and on for 40+ hours a week. It was mentioned they even talk about these issues after work at the bar. The devs put a lot of effort into making this game great. They know what they're doing, and just because you don't agree; it doesn't make you right. Have some faith. Welcome to Eve. ---- VHI - We Haul Your Cargo For Free ---- We Miss you Red 7.
Malashek Vatrii Kaminjosvig Mournival Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:47:00 - [35] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Not ignored, more like recognized as completely idiotic. Once again - have Zulupark actually play the game and then allow him to screw with the balance. At this point a completely new EVE player who plays for 6 months, experiences both empire and 0.0, ratting, mining, and missioning could do a damn better job of "balancing" the game than this guy who has obviously not ever physically played. And it's obviously JUST Zulupark making the nerfs. Lol. The nerfs are good anyway, mm'kay? ***** [url=http://www.kaminjosvig.com/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=34513] [/url]
Ari Chu Perkone	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:48:00 - [36] One possible answer would be to just do a blanket increase to all Scan Resolutions - like by 100% for all ships. With a high scan resolution - a tackling frig would stand a chance of locking, Scramming, and Webbing a nano Ishtar/Vaga/Dictor/whatever before they warped off. It would still allow players to go WTFOMG speeds - but would make it more feasible to actually catch them if a tackler was quick on the trigger. The day I saw a 20 man gate camp with 6 interceptor dedicated tacklers.... all KNOWING that a Nano-Ishtar was coming through the gate.. yet not a single person was able to lock the Ishtar before it entered warp -- that was the day I was 100% convinced that nano-ships either need nerfing, or everything else needs buffing. Increase Scan Resolutions -- How would that impact the nano issue? --- "The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers.
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Post lacking in any logic, argument or discussion. Please try again using some words other than "fail" to actually explain your point. ________________________________________________________________ Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:52:00 - [38] Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:53:00 - [39] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK. My ceptor goes 10km/s my Ishtar with gang bonus goes 6 km/s. Hardly Interceptor speed. Just because i can solo your poorly fitted carebear raven doesn't mean something needs to be nerfed. Get a friends with huggins or stay in empire.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 11:44:56 There's not many issues with Dictors, there are larger issues with nanoed HACs, Vagabond and, especially Ishtar. The dev is right that the whole "speed" issue should be looked at. Speed is much more important factor than tank or gank is small scale PvP that's why speed ships are so popular. Some HACs should be fast, others should be slower, but Vagas and Ishtars going at Interceptor speeds is simply ridiculous. That is the direct consequence of speed module stacking and unbalanced pirate implants. Eve was never about ungodly pwnmobiles, but pirate implants do exactly that. They allow players with stupid amounts of ISK (usually earned through metagaming of some sort) virtually to buy their uberness with ISK. My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Please tell me how a Vagabond is "uber" and a "solopwnmobile". I run more often than I actually end up fighting anything (mainly due to the blob mentality) and when I do find something to fight, it's a random chance whether I can kill it or not because it's either "a) slow and heavily tanked, can't break it so I leave" or "b) capable of doing enough damage to me to make me leave". The actual target list for a solo Vagabond pilot these days is quite a bit slimmer than it used to be, mainly due to the unnecessary and unwanted HP-buff but that's another thread. What all of you ignorant carebears refuse to allow yourselves to acknowledge is that when you speed fit a ship, speed is the only tank you have. And due to the way that webbers currently work, if you make the slightest error in piloting you will die. Let's add in the fact that to reach "ungodly fast speeds" you need horrifically expensive implants and modules and rigs, all of which go "poof" if you make an error while piloting. The energy required to kill or capture any ship should be proportionate to the energy required to train for, fit, and fly that ship. There are easily a dozen different ways to catch and/or scare away a nano ship/gang. AGONY uses tactics often to great effect on enemy nano gangs. What you need to do is step outside your lazy way of thinking and actually think about how to kill or scare off nanoships, it's really not that hard. But I suppose gank and tank online is the simple option, so that's what you whine and try to achieve.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 11:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Balooshinakus Originally by: Hertford You know something is wrong when your T2 MWD/Overdrive Flycatcher is slower than a T2 fitted rifter. Actually it's even worse then that. With my skills a Rifter with a t1 MWD, 1 t1 OD and 1 t1 nano, I go 3331m/s; with a flycatcher with a t2MWD, t2OD, and 2 polys I go 3307m/s. Yes, a t1 fitted rifter with 2 speed mods is faster than a dual poly t2 fitted Flycatcher. And they still didnt even change their mass so the flycatcher still takes longer to cold warp than most non-caldari cruisers. Well, this is a great example of the opinion I now hold of Zulupark. There were many, many threads in the Game Development forum with many details and examples of why nerfing the interdictor base speed was just wrong. Zulu based his decision, as far as I can tell, on the fact that a pilot with snake implants flying a polycarboned Sabre outran a plain T2 interceptor. That's akin to nerfing Battleship speeds because a BS with an MWD outruns a non-MWD cruiser. Interdictors have near-frigate durability, with a near-cruiser signature radius, and no T2 resists like AFs and HACs. Much like a frigate, they can't be tanked with any reasonable degree of success. They can't quickly kill ships that directly threaten them. The only form of defence an interdictor has is speed. And the first post in this thread illustrates the shortsightedness and lack of comprehension of the whole picture possessed by Zulu: Quote: Zulupark - ...in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. Note the bolded part. Interdictors were only one entry in the list of ships that do that. Yet only Interdictors had their base speeds reduced.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:03:00 - [42] Originally by: Gruxella You really shouldn't be bashing zulu. The complete lack of any knowledge of ingame play requires me to scoff at his attempts to break EVE. Originally by: Gruxella Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. And that example was completely unrealistic in every way possible. Maybe if "x" "y" and "z" variable are perfect, and the stars are aligned like "x", and a goat carcass with one horn is found in a hollow on the northern side of Volcano "x" on the island nation of "x" that example might occur. ...riiiiight... You send a dictor, any dictor, even a pre-nerf Sabre at an AGONY fleet and that dictor will die a swift, painful death. Why should interdictor pilots suffer even more ship losses (always called primary, paper thin) due to lack of game mechanic knowledge? As for the "know what they're doing comment... Amarr, blobs, lag, corp interface, hundreds of bugs that have existed for years, T2 BPOs, etc... Need I say more?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Malashek Vatrii And it's obviously JUST Zulupark making the nerfs. Lol. The nerfs are good anyway, mm'kay? 5% of nerfs are actually needed. The rest are unnecessary, kneejerk reactions that are usually overdone anyway, rendering the targeted mod/ship/race broken, crying, and tossed aside in the corner because they are completely useless now. I'm much more in favor of slightly buffing everything else to compensate for a single slightly over-powered mechanic.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:07:00 - [44] Originally by: Pitt Bull Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. You are the clueless one, actually. If you think that combat in EVE consists of merely pressing "F1-F8" then you should come take PVP-BASIC and open your eyes.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:08:00 - [45] Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:37 Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:05 Originally by: Cthulhu My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:13:00 - [46] speed nerf = GOOD!
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:15:00 - [47] Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail.
Cheenie	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. QFE
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:23:00 - [49] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! meh, I was going to post something enlightening but just wanted to say you're wrong on that speed claim. Don't need the Claymore to hit that speed with the Snake/Faction/Polycarb Inty. Nerf away I say Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:24:00 - [50] Zulupark: Did you pick these changes out of a hat? _
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:25:00 - [51] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail. The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK?
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:30:00 - [52] Originally by: Kane Rizzel meh, I was going to post something enlightening but just wanted to say you're wrong on that speed claim. Don't need the Claymore to hit that speed with the Snake/Faction/Polycarb Inty. Nerf away I say My apologies for that inaccurate post, you do indeed "only" need a high grade snake set, faction mwd, and polycarbs to reach 19k/s. That's still a hell of an investment in a paper thin ship that can easily be trapped, outmaneuvered, and instapops when a web lands on it. I had expected an SHC poster to be slightly more intelligent regarding the ramifications of yet more speed nerfage, and what negative effects it will have on small gang and solo pvp.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:33:00 - [53] Nano/Overdrive combo is completly out of control... Every change CCP will do to the current state will be more then welcome...
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:35:00 - [54] Edited by: N''irrti on 23/12/2007 12:35:13 Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: Estephania Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. A fully Snaked, Faction fit, polycarbed interceptor in a claymore gang with a max-skilled leadership pilot using mindlinks and skirmish warfare can hit 20k/s sure. How many people in game have that available for general use? Here's a hint: not many. It's a real PITA to manage that feat, so I better be damn hard to catch and kill! Your faction battleships that can tank 3-4 BS for "several minutes" are most likely extremely highly pimped, rigged, and flown by a very high SP player. Why should a few noobs in poorly fit BS be able to steamroll that guy? It should require a lot of effort to kill that guy, after all he probably has been playing for years, has very high SP, and knows what he is doing. As far as your WOW analogy... a group of level 10 players (say, 8 of them) can physically not hit a level 60 player, regardless of equipment, playtime, player skills, etc... In EVE, a group of 2-month old players can easily kill a battleship/commandship pilot provided they know how the game works and how to effectively use ewar and such. Your examples, and points, fail. The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Estephania The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? Your problem was, you merely tried to out gank+tank the pimped ship. Try using tactics, perhaps a neut battleship to crash his tank, or an ECM boat to make sure he can't damage you while you pound away. The older, richer, more experienced player in his pimped ship was doing nothing wrong by laughing at your attempt to kill him. It was you who was not using the appropriate tactics to kill him. Your constant drivel about "god like status" is annoying in the extreme. No ship in this game is unkillable (see: titan kills) and unbeatable - people simply need to adapt and strategize an appropriate method of dealing with the problem instead of thinking lazily and just bringing out their generic gank+tank fleet fit BS. Then they wonder why they get steamrolled.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:39:00 - [56] Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Or some GTC cards ...
Tate Aoko Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:40:00 - [57] Originally by: Estephania The problem is, we were not n00bs at all, just didn't have insanely pimped ships on our side. The bottom line - is it good for the game to give ways to some players to be able to buy nearly god status with ISK? Yes. A fool and their money are easily parted. Nothing is sweeter than opening a wreck and finding some shiny bling (which you then sell back to them ofc).
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:40:00 - [58] Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Sorry for a litle derailment, but when you say work hard, you mean in Eve, or in RL to pay a little bit extra for Eve?
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:44:00 - [60] /signed It's really worrying. A random goonfleet member promoted to dev would have more respect for game balance.
Talos Darkhart	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. Erm if you think that then thats why you die alot take rells class then come back when you know how the game works.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:48:00 - [62] /signed but let me add that such radical game changes are generally detrimental and demotivating ... people train for and invest in ships based on what those ships can do and how they work, you cannot change that every couple of months because someone is having "ideas" unless you want to swap out all your players every couple of months as well. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Lita F	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:48:00 - [63] Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:50:00 - [64] @Kane - As the current topic of nerfage hits extremely close to home, as far as killing off small gang warfare, I feel justified in raising a stink. Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. CCP is moving in the general direction of nerfing things that do not need to be nerfed, while ignoring underlying issues that affect gameplay significantly more than the current "whine-of-the-month" topic.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:54:00 - [65] it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works.
Kaar Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:55:00 - [66] Originally by: Lita F Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that. Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m --- ---
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer @Kane - As the current topic of nerfage hits extremely close to home, as far as killing off small gang warfare, I feel justified in raising a stink. Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. CCP is moving in the general direction of nerfing things that do not need to be nerfed, while ignoring underlying issues that affect gameplay significantly more than the current "whine-of-the-month" topic. I'm a solo Pirate, I know where your coming from but combating blobs with nanos doesn't help when the blobs are nanos. It's a never ending self perpetuating cycle and something needs to be done, I'm not sure even the devs know what but result to kneejerk reactions to try and ba;lance things. Like I said, I got up in arms about the last nerf where my expensive rigs turned into useless lumps over night, I then realised there are more important things to focus on, like trying to play within the boundaries presented me. I'm not trying to be at odds with you guys on this issue as speed is something very close to my heart but it's just anopther aspect of a game which has so many avenues of combat to explore and enjoy. Originally by: High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:56:00 - [68] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ****loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Sorry for a litle derailment, but when you say work hard, you mean in Eve, or in RL to pay a little bit extra for Eve? Granted you are able to buy those ships by selling gtc. But if you do, you lack the experience and the skills to fly it to the max. Without experience how to fly such specialised ships you'll die pretty quickly. I've seen faction fitted Machariels dying to a T2 Myrmidon cause the Machariel pilot wasn't experienced enough to keep out of overheated web range (<3 Heat btw :P).
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.12.23 12:59:00 - [69] Originally by: Estephania Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:37 Edited by: Estephania on 23/12/2007 12:08:05 Originally by: Cthulhu My god... another "player" with no clue how the game works. Yes, I don't have a clue I've seen interceptors going at close to 20km/s, I've seen Vagas going at approx 10km/s, I've seen faction battleships that were able to successfully tank 4 battleships for like 10 minutes. Are you sure we want such differences between players? We are getting now into WoW situation when lvl 50 wizard with epic (dragon, rune or whatever word they use there) gear can drop an army. That is the stupiest comment in this whole thread. One faction battleship (probably with faction modules) tanking 4 other battleships for TEN (10) minutes?? OMG OMG OMG - the sky is falling!!!111 Nerf faction battleships!! Every n00b in a frig must be able to kill 1+ bil ships! If some people have good knowledge of what they are doing and others haven't and are pwned because of that ... what is the reaction?? Ask the losers themselves what they did wrong? What they might change next time? No!! They whine and run to the forums and scream UNFAIR and NERF. I call them idiots and those people ruin the game. It is the strength! of Eve that you can do better with some thinking than without some thinking. Eve is not just buying a ship and running around stupidly in a random gang and trying to gank something. It is about THINKING! You want to kill those incredible fast ships? Have nos ready (oh ... CCP nerfed nos - clever move) and neuts. How fast is a ship going with an empty cap? Be prepared! No one can expect to win against people who prepare themselves and work on strategies. And it would be also very unfair as well. Work and think before you go to pvp! But somehow from all the whines (and Z's comments) I am rather pessimistic for the future.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:00:00 - [70] Edited by: Goumindong on 23/12/2007 13:01:01 Originally by: that guy in the OP Dictors were never "super inties" apart from a few highly pimped examples. 5500m/s, 200 dps, web/scram, 5000 hit points, plus bubble, no polycarbons. With no rigs at all, its still > 5000m/s [Sabre, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I The fastest interceptor in the game [crusader] goes 7630 with tech 2 gear[2 od, 2 nano], has 1/3 the dps, no web, and 2/5ths the hit points. It also has no bubble and must use cap to do dps. it was a god damned super-inty
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:00:00 - [71] Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 13:03:04 Originally by: 7shining7one7 it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works. Thats why they are nerfing speed. Nano's have killed small gang combat in 0.0 mostly, and nano ships are almost unbeatable in low sec. A Nano gang cannot be beaten other than by lag, or another nano gang. A Stupid nanogang may be beaten by smartbombers, but a average non-brain dead nano gang will massacre smartbombers and always keep transversal high to prevent sniping. Nano setups have gone way past what was reasonable. This is WCS methodology people - risk free pvp. Remember - going 1k/s used to be considered way fast. Now even even 3-4k/sec is considered slow. Nano is killing eve and should be nerfed asap. Or even better - have the scrams boosted to disable MicroWARPdrives so AB's become useful in PvP! Refresh to see next Real Life CCP sig(16 total)
Toolivus	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:03:00 - [72] This is a ** thread. I don't agree with the dictor speed nerf, but getting it changed or looked at again isn't gonna be done by just flaming a person who might have been on the team that had a bit of a role in making the decision. Stop crying and flailing blindly at the nearest scapegoat and think. Think about why you don't agree and write that down. Think about the affect that the change will have on the game and write that down. Think about whether you agree about whether the motivation behind the change is valid, why, why not? Also, take the quoted parts in context, the whole live devblog was just a bunch of short frivolous answers to short, frivolous questions; not somewhere for any real insightful discussion. Make a post that addresses the issue rather than lighting fire to some straw man. Leave the "l2p n00b" bull** for local.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:04:00 - [73] Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Wrong. A T2 speed-fitted Interdictor with no rigs flown by a pilot with no snake implants was never faster than a T2 speed-fitted Interceptor with no rigs flown by a pilot with no snake implants. If you don't see what I did there in that comparison, then you understand the issue as much as Zulupark does.
N'irrti Amarr PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Originally by: 7shining7one7 it's pretty bad when some of the developers don't even know how their own game works. Thats why they are nerfing speed. Nano's have killed small gang combat in 0.0 mostly. A Nano gang cannot be beaten other than by lag, or another nano gang. A Stupid nanogang may be beaten by smartbombers, but a average non-brain dead nano gang will massacre smartbombers and always keep transversal high to prevent sniping. Nano setups have gone way past what was reasonable. This is WCS methodology people - risk free pvp. Remember - going 1k/s used to be considered way fast. Now even even 3-4k/sec is considered slow. Nano is killing eve and should be nerfed asap. Or even better - have a scram disable MWD so AB's become useful! If you can't beat them whine enough so ccp beats them?
ArmyOfMe Exotic Dancers Club Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:05:00 - [75] Originally by: Minokou My personal experience in flying dictors, as well as catching them, is that it's not trivial to fly one, or to catch one, but both are quite possible if one puts some thought into it. There is the problem, seems a lot of the newer playerbase dont wanna give some thought into anything. they just wanna grind ahead like they did in wow
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:09:00 - [76] Originally by: Gruxella Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It may be a game, but this game is something the devs work with and on for 40+ hours a week. 40 hours of tossing it seems (tossing coins to decide on the nerfs :P) Originally by: DeadDuck Nano/Overdrive combo is completly out of control... Every change CCP will do to the current state will be more then welcome... Except CCP nerfed the one ship which literally cannot hurt anything bigger than a t2 frigate. Ishtars, Curse, Vagabonds are all warping before decloak animation finishes and the only tool to stop them (bubbles, force them to mwd to gate or out-run your own nano-ship) just got nerfed. I would say they just made the real nano ships stronger.. Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Fast gangs are one of the few methods available to smaller corps (or large corps that enjoy small gang warfare) to deal with huge blobs of ships thrown together by alliance carebears. Hell, I'd even engage a blob or two in one of AGONY's speed fleets if the game didn't slideshow due to lag + 25/1 or higher odds. At least you don't up and claim it's the only bloody tactic. I am sick of that crap. Originally by: Kaar Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Maybe you should uncloak more often. Those snake implants you have aren't enough to compensate for protocloak's velocity penalty :P Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Wrong, totally bloody wrong. Why are you saying such stupid things? Circle the fastest (before Trinity): Claw / Sabre Crow / Flycatcher Crusader / Heretic Taranis / Eris Circle the fastest (after Trinity): Claw / Sabre Crow / Flycatcher Crusader / Heretic Taranis / Eris (assuming 2xod II + polycarbs) Originally by: Kaar Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m Less invention, more undocking, okay Kaar? =====
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Goumindong The fastest interceptor in the game [crusader] goes 7630 with tech 2 gear[2 od, 2 nano], has 1/3 the dps, no web, and 2/5ths the hit points. It also has no bubble and must use cap to do dps. Also has a significantly lower sig radius (both MWDing and not) therefore takes much less fire. And the only interdictor anyone ever mentions is the Sabre. I will admit that the Sabre (do to a combination of capless weapons + grid for an extender + faster base speed) was slightly overpowered for its intended role... so slightly nerf the one overpowered ship instead of kneejerking and ****ting all over every single speedfit ship like it appears they are planning on doing.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:17:00 - [78] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 23/12/2007 13:18:31 they nerf the nos and screw with amarr recon they nerf the damps and screw with gallente recon and making damps allmost useless. they want to make capital ships only use 5 drones when they cost billions to fly and years to train for. they nerf drones across the board. they now want to nerf speed making a ***load of ships obsolete that cost billions to fit in some cases and often flown by players with ridiculously high sp and isk for a full high grade set like snake. what's next.. ships do too much alpha, we must nerf them so it takes longer so it's more fun for the wow kiddies that join eve.. NO.. f'ing no.. ccp, sit down.. don't move a finger, and think about what exactly it is your doing.. your nerfing entire categories instead of the particular items that needs balancing (not uber nerfing just balancing) and it's frankly starting to look like a elephant in a glass store. Wops, i tipped a shelf giggle* and in regards to zulu park, dr. 7 recommends him about 14 x 24 hours worth of playtime with various skill sets to gain basic understanding of the game mechanics. and keep getting him more till he can pass a quiz with questions of common knowledge in eve. untill then keep him out of decision making. he will do more damage than good if he doesn't know how things really are ingame...
Coldim	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:23:00 - [79] It's sad to see that so many ppl has WoW attitude to EvE. There's no major imbalance with nanoships, few might be too fast(few that by no means are meant to be fast) but all in all it's fine. Vagabonds/matar ships are meant to be fast so why nerf them? Why nerf ships that are really fast with snakes+polycarbons+faction modules? Someone did pay a lot of ISK to gain certain result, it's not an average ship, it's meant to be special cause it has special modules on it. Sure with claymore/faction mods you can get some ships to move really fast but it's not like everyone has a claymore pilot+huge amount of ISK to play with every day. Havent seen ppl whine about faction fitted battleships(+slaves set) tank too hard. Difference is that you can blob such bs with 40 ppl that started to play day before that. It doesnt require much skills, does it? Catching nanoships is absolutly possible but you actually have to think about how to do it not just F1-F8. I'd like to play the game where player skill actually matters... Heart & Soul
Lita F	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:25:00 - [80] Originally by: Kaar Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. You either 1. Dont "do" fleet battles. 2. Only bubble gates/station and dock/jump. 3. Fight fleetbattles but your hostile BS force aint smart enough to shoot you. Originally by: Kaar Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Not true. Plain speed t2 fitted ic was faster than plain t2 fitted dictor. If you disagree: prove it. Problem was snaked/rigged dictors that were faster than your tanked IC. Originally by: Kaar Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m You fly T1 ?
Minokou Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:26:00 - [81] Originally by: Gruxella Devs don't make these decisions on their own. Nano setups have gotten out of hand and they need to be looked at. Dont blame zulu because the devs collectively think that nano setups are overpowered, or at the very least need to be looked into. I didn't get the memo where Zulu was the official spokesperson of the dev-collective, I did see that after the whole carrier-nerf fiasko Zulu came up with another dev stepped and strongly stated that it was not the dev-collective Zulu was speaking for. Don't make this about nano ships, this issue in this post is specifically about Interdictors. Originally by: Gruxella Zulu provided an example where one ship is able to bubble an entire fleet with zero risk. The whole point of this thread is to point out that the assumption that it is zero risk to bubble an entire fleet is dead wrong. Originally by: Gruxella Stop bashing him. Show some respect. It's hard to respect someone who has so very little knowledge about the actual game mechanics but is in a position to make policy decisions about what he clearly doesn't know that much about. Originally by: Kane Rizzel I hold the Interceptor speed record, you think I'd like to see the time I've spent training and isk invested to achieve that milestone just go poof. If I fly a T2 Crow I'm nigh untouchable against anything I choose to engage So what? Just because an extremely small percentage of the EVE population has chosen to specialize (oh noes! specialization in EVE!) in a certain aspect of the game, and they have the fiscal resources to support their specialization, doesn't mean that the entire field needs to be nerfed for the rest of us. Let's just be honest here, where does this dictor nerf come from? Please note, we are not talking about HACs, Interdictors is the topic of the day, Interdictors and what CCP Zulu-ish had to say about them. Which cap fleets got recently owned by dictors, didn't manage to counter them, and went to CCP to cry about it? I don't know, but the fact is that Interdictors have always been catchable if one did not rely on F1-F8. The fact also is that Interdictors promote diversity rather than just BS or Cap sized fleet slugfests. Interdictors are among the ever shrinking number of ships which make this game challenging (biggest problem to many imho, no EZ-mode!), interesting, and fun. I am sorry that someone's GTC financed cap fleet got owned by a single dictor, who went in, dropped a bubble, caught the entire fleet, prevented all of them from powering out of this oh-so-large bubble, and then soloed the entire fleet since he was going so fast that none of them could shoot him while he laid on the mad DPS. Again, sorry for your loss, but there are always more GTCs around, and CCP loved the GTC sales, so I'd say, boost Interdictors!
Kane Rizzel NovaKane Incorporated Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:34:00 - [82] Mino, you need to be very specific about what your complaining about in the op, it comes across as your **ed off about a general Speed nerf, if it's just dictors being nerfed then I'd tend to agree with you on certain pointsbut not all. My Faction/Polycarb Sabres still go 12km/s but then the Sabre has always been the best interdictor to fly Originally by:** High Sierra note to self: dont ever say anything to anyone on the internet about anything ever again.
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:37:00 - [83] i do hope CCP wount listen tho hes opinions.. hes bad for this game. that dev has probably minimal experiance whit eve... (hi sec bearing probably) and i hope to god hes not trying to change PvP aspect of the game. and yes this is a insult toward him.. because sofar what i have read of replys and blogs have been aful. ban me or whatever from the forums but i will fight every stupid idea he comes up until i get banned or not going into the game. so far from him: stupid idea for carrier... VERY stupid. now stupid idea for dictors.... like they arent bad enough atm whit heavy dictors than can tank uber dps and lowered speed what are dictors supposed to do ? tank... lol try tanking a frig. dictors are doing exactly what theya re supposed to do.. zip in.. pray that they get a bubble up before explodeing.. if thats done.. pray that you get out alive. ask any dedicated dictor pilot how many dictors he looses per month.... ---------------------------------- Seems that there's a new game that seems to be very popular whit whiners these days. Its called EFT Online. dont listen those people.. as they dont have a clue
BiggestT	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:45:00 - [84] LMAO ROFL HAHAHA the fact that interdictors are getting nerfed yet their training islonger than t2 cruisers is just a joke, its like hey, im gonna spend 80 days training dictors so i can get insta-popped in my slow ass paper thin shiny destroyer xD. Oh and the heavy dictor cld be the answet to our problems....or we cld just train a black ops in the same amount of time ahahahaha seriously, since when where dictors overpowered, ive never heard ne1 say omg dictors are ruining eve, its just like, hey lets nerf dreadnoughts...coz ah...some carebear got shot down this one time in 0.4 space lmao
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:52:00 - [85] People saying that dictors were faster than inty's should read this please: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=652223&page=2#55 I don't know why people keep bringing up that point, it's nonsense and I would expect more intelligent replies from some people.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:53:00 - [86] Insulting devs, i've got to admit it's a novel way to try and get the devs to listen to you since you know poeople don't like being insulted. If this was real life and you walked into someones business and started insulting them you'd get chucked out. But since this is the internet it somehow makes it okay? Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea.
Solara Astaris Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:54:00 - [87] Quote: the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can So can a gang of T1 fitted frigs. Let's nerf them also. A Merlin can kill any 'ceptor if he messes up and gets webs on himself. Let's nerf webs too. It's this kind of logic that is the problem. A problem with a ship or a module doesn't requires an entire item class adjustment. There are far to many dependent variables to take the easy way out. The person that mentioned out of the box thinking is right. Both in balancing and how one plays the game. Zulupark is the dev held up to us for these changes. It's part of that job to take the heat, or get out of the kitchen. Regardless if he made the changes by fiat or by comittee. Out.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:58:00 - [88] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. It's not insulting , just heavy sarcasm
Pitt Bull Caldari Naval Reserve	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:58:00 - [89] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. Reading the OP, I'm pretty sure they insulted themselves.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 13:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Insulting devs, i've got to admit it's a novel way to try and get the devs to listen to you since you know poeople don't like being insulted. If this was real life and you walked into someones business and started insulting them you'd get chucked out. But since this is the internet it somehow makes it okay? Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. we are paying customers you utter fanboi.. what's gonna help ccp the most, that someone praises them when they screw up or someone who are frank with them and tells them what's up?
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:00:00 - [91] Originally by: Pitt Bull Reading the OP, I'm pretty sure they insulted themselves. Of and of course that suddenly makes it alright to insult them, how silly of me. If you want people to listen to you, you talk to them politely and constructively, it's how you do it face to face, and it's how you do it on the internet. Being the internet does not suddenly make insults a good way to get people to listen to you.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:01:00 - [92] Originally by: 7shining7one7 we are paying customers you utter fanboi.. what's gonna help ccp the most, that someone praises them when they screw up or someone who are frank with them and tells them what's up? Did i say you didn't have the right to criticise them? Of course you do, we're the players, we play the game. But there's a difference between putting across your point constructively, and putting it across in a way that involves objects being inserted in interesting ways into devs.
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:03:00 - [93] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Pitt Bull Reading the OP, I'm pretty sure they insulted themselves. Of and of course that suddenly makes it alright to insult them, how silly of me. If you want people to listen to you, you talk to them politely and constructively, it's how you do it face to face, and it's how you do it on the internet. Being the internet does not suddenly make insults a good way to get people to listen to you. you try and say that back a few weeks ago when trinity patch had the boot.ini error.. fanbois like you help diddly squat for eve's progress, just shut up and play the game.. i'm sure you play it well but please don't sabotage attempts of keeping eve good instead of turning it into WoW.
Corey Grim FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:04:00 - [94] This thread needs more fact and less insulting CCP. At the moment speed figures are like this (maxed skills) when fitted 1x mwd t2 and 1x overdrive t2 and 1x medium shield extender t2 for dictors (wich is the most used "tanking module" for fleet battles in dictor. Interdictors: Sabre: 3140 m/s -- 82m sig radius -- 492m sig radius (mwd on) Heretic: 2766 m/s -- 90m sig radius -- 540m sig radius (mwd on) Eris: 2722 m/s -- 86m sig radius -- 516m sig radius (mwd on) Flycatcher: 2662 m/s -- 90m sig radius -- 540m sig radius (mwd on) Interceptors (tier2) Without mediums shield extender Claw: 5234 m/s -- 22.5m sig radius -- 135m sig radius (mwd on) Crusader: 5223 m/s -- 24m sig radius -- 140m sig radius (mwd on) Taranis: 4755 m/s -- 27m sig radius -- 162m sig radius (mwd on) Crow: 5020 m/s -- 27m sig radius -- 162m sig radius (mwd on) Heavy assault Ships (tier1) with 2 t2 overdrives to compensate more low slots not touching sig radius in here becouse these ships aint the one who are usually trying to fly 150 km to get the tackle on hostile snipers these are just for comparsion Vagabond: 4194 m/s (1054 m/s faster than Sabre) Zealot: 2682 m/s (84 m/s slower than Heretic) Ishtar: 2458 m/s (264 m/s slower than Eris) Cerberus: 2117 m/s (545 m/s slower than Flycatcher) That comparison sheet looks a bit off no ??? Im not saying that the nerfie wasnt needed, but im saying it hit the wrong place and way too hard. Now if we could get ~1000 m/s more speed for every interdictor that sheet would actually look like it should in my opinion. Reasons why dictors need that kind of speed is fleet battle tackling when they actually need to fly sometimes very long distances to get the bubble in place and not to die occasional hits from BS¦s and not to die on their way out from the hostile blob (wich imo is the most trickiest part). Thats why they were brought into game no ?. My Latest Video:Kaamos
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:05:00 - [95] Originally by: 7shining7one7 you try and say that back a few weeks ago when trinity patch had the boot.ini error.. fanbois like you help diddly squat for eve's progress, just shut up and play the game.. i'm sure you play it well but please don't sabotage attempts of keeping eve good instead of turning it into WoW. Read the post above yours i made in response to you. I have nowhere said criticism = bad, i'm just saying people are going about it in a way that will not make devs listen to them. If you truly care about this game, and improving it, helping to fix all the bugs and imbalances etc.(and no i don't think EVE is perfect before you accuse me of fanboyism again), then take the effort to put your ideas across in a way that is constructive, not insulting. Because if you insult them you are pretty much 100% guaranteed they will ignore you.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:06:00 - [96] Originally by: Corey Grim This thread needs more fact and less insulting CCP. Long and detailed post This is what i'm getting at people. This is the kind of post that is useful, not one that flames devs.
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:13:00 - [97] Originally by: Drykor People saying that dictors were faster than inty's should read this please: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=652223&page=2#55 I don't know why people keep bringing up that point, it's nonsense and I would expect more intelligent replies from some people. Quoting this, because some people obviously still need to read that post.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:21:00 - [98] I also hope that CCP learned something from the SWG NGE disaster
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:23:00 - [99] I have three alts all training minmatar since the only FOTM left is speed and there is NO reason to train any other race for pvp. Thats broken, but take a look at what the very successful roaming gangs look like.
Madelchai Gallente Stimulus	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:23:00 - [100] Apparently Zulu would like to see all Interdictor pilots lose their head full of implants every time they bubble something. ------ Revolution. The only solution.
Benedic The Aftermath	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:36:00 - [101] Everyone should cry about devs in alliances. Then everyone should cry when devs make stupid decisions based on not being in alliances. Oh wait...
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.12.23 14:41:00 - [102] Well if I wanted to get the devs to listen to me, personal attacks coupled with fervent rage would be the first thing to come to mind! ---------------- Tarminic - 30 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.76.2
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:20:00 - [103] /Signed, it'd be nice for zulupark to sound like a player once. Or at least pay him to pretend he knows anything about the game other than the codebase.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:25:00 - [104] Originally by: Richard Phallus /Signed, it'd be nice for zulupark to sound like a player once. Or at least pay him to pretend he knows anything about the game other than the codebase. give him beer and discuss your ideas with him in the time it takes for him to finish them Trashed sig, Shark was here
Richard Phallus	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:29:00 - [105] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Richard Phallus /Signed, it'd be nice for zulupark to sound like a player once. Or at least pay him to pretend he knows anything about the game other than the codebase. give him beer and discuss your ideas with him in the time it takes for him to finish them This is the most brilliant idea to hit a web forum this week, unfortunately sea conditions wouldn't be very nice this time of year and I imagine my small outboard fishing boat would be lost on the way to Iceland Perhaps I'll have to attend fan fest next year
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:39:00 - [106] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Insulting devs, i've got to admit it's a novel way to try and get the devs to listen to you since you know poeople don't like being insulted. If this was real life and you walked into someones business and started insulting them you'd get chucked out. No, nowdays you'd get tasered. Quote: Seriously people, if you want to get CCP to listen to you, insulting them is never a good idea. You must have missed all the intelligent, calmly written posts that people have been writing over the years with 0 results. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Treelox Amarr Market Jihadist Revolutionary Party	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:43:00 - [107] /signed Zulupark, seems to make statements all the time that seem to show the basic lack of knowledge of how things work in the game. While his predecessors may have made changes to the game that I wasnt happy about on a personal level in the past, at least when they wrote or spoke about eve it sounded like they were playing the same game that I do. --
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:46:00 - [108] Originally by: Talos Darkhart Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. Erm if you think that then thats why you die alot take rells class then come back when you know how the game works. then please enlighten me as to where the tactical element of eve comes into play, because i sure as hell dont see it. its just a numbers game, not really tactics. maybe black ops will change that, but i'm not holding my breath
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:46:00 - [109] Originally by: N'irrti Originally by: Estephania Originally by: N'irrti There is no god status. The peeps owning those beasts earned them by working hard for them, it takes ***loads of skills and isk to get to the point. Sorry for a litle derailment, but when you say work hard, you mean in Eve, or in RL to pay a little bit extra for Eve? Granted you are able to buy those ships by selling gtc. But if you do, you lack the experience and the skills to fly it to the max. Nonsense... Grinding ISK doesn't make you an experienced PVP pilot. GTC=>ISK transfers have nothing to do with the player's experience, just with laziness in or out of game. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)*
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:48:00 - [110] Originally by: Tarminic Well if I wanted to get the devs to listen to me, personal attacks coupled with fervent rage would be the first thing to come to mind! Perhaps it would be the third or fourth thing ... "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:51:00 - [111] Originally by: Lazuran You must have missed all the intelligent, calmly written posts that people have been writing over the years with 0 results. No i've seen them, doesn't mean that it's an excuse to suddenly go flaming the devs in a way that is 100% certain to be ignored, instead of a way that might be listened to, even if some threads which really deserved a dev answer didn't get posted in.
Killa Bee Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:53:00 - [112] Want to nerf speed ..... why not follow the heat principle, excessive speeds creates heat / friction / space dust damage or what ever you want to name it and that means either shield / armor / structure damage. So for instance a Dictor flying at 5 Km/s isn't an issue but as soon as he hits 7.5 or 10 km/s he takes damage, the faster he goes the more damage he takes. Sure you can fit a shield or armor rep and keep that running while flying at insane speeds but it will eat cap and no cap is no speed. The max speed (without taking damage) of ships should go up with gang bonuses but not for pirate implants.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:54:00 - [113] Zulupark, please nerf the stupidity in this thread, it needs a heavy nerf bat though leave agony unleashed alone, we need SOME morons around here for comedy Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:54:00 - [114] Originally by: Lazuran Nonsense... Grinding ISK doesn't make you an experienced PVP pilot. GTC=>ISK transfers have nothing to do with the player's experience, just with laziness in or out of game. Every time ISK and metagaming in some form are mentioned the argument of clueless n00bs buying faction ships is used. Like veterans who know how to put gear to a good use never metagame their way to billions.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 16:56:00 - [115] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Lazuran You must have missed all the intelligent, calmly written posts that people have been writing over the years with 0 results. No i've seen them, doesn't mean that it's an excuse to suddenly go flaming the devs in a way that is 100% certain to be ignored, instead of a way that might be listened to, even if some threads which really deserved a dev answer didn't get posted in. The long thread about the original Carrier nerf proved that excessive flaming is the only way to get them to pay attention at all and perhaps listen. It's sad, but that's how it is. If you think otherwise, perhaps you haven't been around for long enough to see all the past attempts... "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Stogee Gods of War	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:02:00 - [116] /signed Been saying for ages CCP have lost the plot.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:03:00 - [117] Originally by: Lazuran The long thread about the original Carrier nerf proved that excessive flaming is the only way to get them to pay attention at all and perhaps listen. It's sad, but that's how it is. If you think otherwise, perhaps you haven't been around for long enough to see all the past attempts... I've not been around for long, but i've been around in other game forums and watched as devs become less and less active as they get flamed more and more, it might have some effect at first as devs try to calm the players down, but no one wants to deal with the level of abuse that's hurled at CCP on a daily basis on this forum. It's more likely to make them ignore the players, not listen to them.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:05:00 - [118] Save your breath Jakus, no one in authority is going to take this thread seriously, the only people whining in it are the ones that only come to the forums to whine The usual suspects are just kept around to feed me, not to be taken seriously Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Todeskuh Inter Stellar Mining Syndicate Ethereal Spectrum Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:07:00 - [119] /signed
Victor Ivanov Minmatar The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:08:00 - [120] I for one endorse the stacking nerf of fast ships. It's not like minmatar aren't completely useless in both tanking, damaging and anything else, so taking away their speed should pretty much put them in line with amarr. Who are getting a boost soon. But that's besides the point. But yes, brilliant idea. All those vagabonds zooming around with frigate sized dps really need to be countered to prevent game instability. ----------------------
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:12:00 - [121] Posting in an agony empire chest-beating thread. Oh, and yes its old news the balancing team as a whole is lacking. Where have you been the last 2 months?
ZigZag Joe The Republican Guard Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:13:00 - [122] /signed. 2-3 mo of forced labor in a 0.0 alliance for Zulupark methink
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:18:00 - [123] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Lazuran The long thread about the original Carrier nerf proved that excessive flaming is the only way to get them to pay attention at all and perhaps listen. It's sad, but that's how it is. If you think otherwise, perhaps you haven't been around for long enough to see all the past attempts... I've not been around for long, but i've been around in other game forums and watched as devs become less and less active as they get flamed more and more, it might have some effect at first as devs try to calm the players down, but no one wants to deal with the level of abuse that's hurled at CCP on a daily basis on this forum. It's more likely to make them ignore the players, not listen to them. EVE isn't exactly new and the Devs have been largely absent from the forums for years. The massive abuse came as a result of that and the feeling that not only they're ignoring the community, but that they've also lost the touch with the game. 2 years ago we were jokingly saying that they must be playing WoW, nowdays we're just bitter and flabbergasted with some of the changes they're implementing and planning to add. It's their turn to come back to us and talk to us, not our turn to calm down and behave like we did when they had just abandoned us... I'm not holding my breath for this, just like with that player committee to look into cheating etc. ... "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:20:00 - [124] Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Talos Darkhart Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. Erm if you think that then thats why you die alot take rells class then come back when you know how the game works. then please enlighten me as to where the tactical element of eve comes into play, because i sure as hell dont see it. its just a numbers game, not really tactics. maybe black ops will change that, but i'm not holding my breath I don't think anyone is going to enlighten you in this thread my friend. I would be far more enjoyable to educate you in-game. Or at least it could be, if you would post with your main.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:28:00 - [125] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Originally by: Lazuran The long thread about the original Carrier nerf proved that excessive flaming is the only way to get them to pay attention at all and perhaps listen. It's sad, but that's how it is. If you think otherwise, perhaps you haven't been around for long enough to see all the past attempts... I've not been around for long, but i've been around in other game forums and watched as devs become less and less active as they get flamed more and more, it might have some effect at first as devs try to calm the players down, but no one wants to deal with the level of abuse that's hurled at CCP on a daily basis on this forum. It's more likely to make them ignore the players, not listen to them. EVE isn't exactly new and the Devs have been largely absent from the forums for years. The massive abuse came as a result of that and the feeling that not only they're ignoring the community, but that they've also lost the touch with the game. 2 years ago we were jokingly saying that they must be playing WoW, nowdays we're just bitter and flabbergasted with some of the changes they're implementing and planning to add. It's their turn to come back to us and talk to us, not our turn to calm down and behave like we did when they had just abandoned us... I'm not holding my breath for this, just like with that player committee to look into cheating etc. ... Speak for yourself there lil fella. Actually, the dev's have been quite active on the forum and dev blogs (including the live ones). It's pretty obvious that nearly every major change to the game that came out with Trinity has had strong influence from the community. Perhaps not from you, but then again as has been pointed out, there is probably good reason for that. You (and others in this thread) seem to be trying to portray yourselves as the "voice of the community". Well, as one of the senior members of the community I'd like to make the point that we'd like our "voices" to be polite and constructive or STFU. I trust that was clear enough for you?
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:35:00 - [126] avoid quoting due to impending pyramid :-) just saying, if there were large amounts of tactics envolved, two pilots with exactly the same skills and ship / modules would result diffrently to one dieing with the other at 5% hull, but while eve is a point / clink numbers game, there's little, if any room for tactics really. You're either going to win or lose from the outset, depending on the ships and fits more than anything. which, while tactical to some degree, is pretty shallow. not saying there isnt any skill involved, just that there's not much. anyhow, its OT from the thread, didnt expect such a hijack, sorry :) as far as the OP, yeah, it's a bit worrying what zulu said, but im more bothered about the longevity of bugs and lack of functionality in eve which should have existed years ago. posting with alt yes, as this has nothing to do with my main's corp/alliance, so there's no reason to bring that into the matter.
Scott Ryder Infestation. The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:38:00 - [127] I wish someone nerfed zulupark
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:42:00 - [128] Originally by: Ranger 1 [Speak for yourself there lil fella. ... You (and others in this thread) seem to be trying to portray yourselves as the "voice of the community". Well, as one of the senior members of the community I'd like to make the point that we'd like our "voices" to be polite and constructive or STFU. I trust that was clear enough for you? Oh look, it's a fanboi trying to turn this into a "whose char is older" ***ing match. I'm very sorry if you do not share my and other people's opinions on the matter, but it changes nothing. Not my dissatisfaction, not the quality of the recent changes in the game and not the outcry on the forums. It is very funny though that you claim that Trinity's changes were influenced by the community. Perhaps you meant the second change to Gallente colors, because I cannot think of anything else (well apart from the Nidhoggur slot change, but that isn't exactly representative of "Trinity"). "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)*
Loyal Servant Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:44:00 - [129] Dictors were not solo pwnmobiles. What are they going to catch? a fracking frigate.. or another destroyer... how about a hauler? They could never really be much of a threat to a good cruiser pilot, or a battlecruiser pilot. My dictor did not see much reduction but it was noticeable. If this guy is not playing the game and just nerfing things just to nerf them, as you say then yes he is a fracking idiot. I read the comments, and if authentic it is pretty obvious that he also lacks basic language skills. The guy moves on to another topic and he keeps rambling trying to justify his change... insecurity at it's finest. Grow a set, ffs.
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.23 17:51:00 - [130] Originally by: Dorisane avoid quoting due to impending pyramid :-) just saying, if there were large amounts of tactics envolved, two pilots with exactly the same skills and ship / modules would result diffrently to one dieing with the other at 5% hull, but while eve is a point / clink numbers game, there's little, if any room for tactics really. You're either going to win or lose from the outset, depending on the ships and fits more than anything. which, while tactical to some degree, is pretty shallow. not saying there isnt any skill involved, just that there's not much. anyhow, its OT from the thread, didnt expect such a hijack, sorry :) as far as the OP, yeah, it's a bit worrying what zulu said, but im more bothered about the longevity of bugs and lack of functionality in eve which should have existed years ago. posting with alt yes, as this has nothing to do with my main's corp/alliance, so there's no reason to bring that into the matter. Well, to keep things related to the topic at hand: Two enemy squadrons engage each other... equal number and roughly equal combat oriented skill sets relevant to the ships they are flying. Squadron A is a dedicated nano gang with perhaps a covert for scouting. Squadron B is a mixed gang of BS, Hac's including a Rapier, and ceptors with some remote repair capability. This is not an untypical encounter, and it will be determined entirely by the pilots personal skills, communication, leadership, and most of all tactics used in the engagement. Blob warfare is less prevelant in many area's than it once was, but even there tactics play a key role in determining victory or defeat. Go engage MC sometime. And finally, I didn't create the perceptions of people on this forum... but the fact remains that posts made by alts carry little or no value. Sorry, but thats the way it is.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:00:00 - [131] Originally by: Ranger 1 And finally, I didn't create the perceptions of people on this forum... but the fact remains that posts made by alts carry little or no value. Sorry, but thats the way it is. You're kidding yourself if you think that it matters to people who can actually argue above the ad hominem "alt or not alt" level. Oh, and speak for yourself. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:00:00 - [132] Classic Loseran Troll, anyone who actually thinks out their post must be a fanboi Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:00:00 - [133] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Ranger 1 [Speak for yourself there lil fella. ... You (and others in this thread) seem to be trying to portray yourselves as the "voice of the community". Well, as one of the senior members of the community I'd like to make the point that we'd like our "voices" to be polite and constructive or STFU. I trust that was clear enough for you? Oh look, it's a fanboi trying to turn this into a "whose char is older" ****ing match. I'm very sorry if you do not share my and other people's opinions on the matter, but it changes nothing. Not my dissatisfaction, not the quality of the recent changes in the game and not the outcry on the forums. It is very funny though that you claim that Trinity's changes were influenced by the community. Perhaps you meant the second change to Gallente colors, because I cannot think of anything else (well apart from the Nidhoggur slot change, but that isn't exactly representative of "Trinity"). I'm sure you can't, but it's not my job to educate you. Be as dissatified as you like, I could care less. But don't pretend you represent more than yourself, and remember that those that insult and are abusive to CCP everytime they get their panties in a bunch tend to undermine the very point they are trying to make. And yes, I "HAVE" been around long enough to hear all this type of whining before. I have no idea how long you have been playing, nor do I care. But getting emo over proposed changes and balancing issues IS rather a sign of noobness.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:09:00 - [134] Originally by: Ranger 1 remember that those that insult and are abusive to CCP everytime they get their panties in a bunch tend to undermine the very point they are trying to make. That may be a risk worth taking. It's too bad that guys like you who have to resort to flaming "alts" because they have nothing else to add, also undermine every point made to improve the game. Quote: And yes, I "HAVE" been around long enough to hear all this type of whining before. I have no idea how long you have been playing, nor do I care. But getting emo over proposed changes and balancing issues IS rather a sign of noobness. Look how elegantly you avoided to prove your claim that anything in Trinity was based on community feedback. Your inane flaming really undermines your point. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:12:00 - [135] Loseran has never actually BEEN to the features and ideas forum, he does not understand why we do not take him seriously [babytalk] who's da wikkle twoll, come on who's da wikkle troll [/babytalk] Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:16:00 - [136] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Loseran has never actually BEEN to the features and ideas forum, he does not understand why we do not take him seriously O RLY [babytalk] who's da wikkle twoll, come on who's da wikkle troll [/babytalk] I bet your main complains about alt trolls a lot. ;-) Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:16:00 - [137] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Tortun Nahme Loseran has never actually BEEN to the features and ideas forum, he does not understand why we do not take him seriously O RLY Quote: [babytalk] who's da wikkle twoll, come on who's da wikkle troll [/babytalk] I bet your main complains about alt trolls a lot. ;-) Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:18:00 - [138] so you are saying you fail at forums completely then? linking to thread you trolled previously, epic fail Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ranger 1 Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:22:00 - [139] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Loseran has never actually BEEN to the features and ideas forum, he does not understand why we do not take him seriously [babytalk] who's da wikkle twoll, come on who's da wikkle troll [/babytalk] Gotcha, thanks for the clue. I broke my own 2 cardinal rules these forums. 1: Don't respond to an alts ravings. 2: Don't feed the Trolls. Shame on me, I should know better. Please Loseran, babble on. I have to go converse with some folks that actually matter.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:23:00 - [140] Originally by: Tortun Nahme so you are saying you fail at forums completely then? linking to thread you trolled previously, epic fail Are you Ranger 1's or some other fanboi's alt, trying to troll this thread until it gets locked? Good luck. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:25:00 - [141] having to ask that question, another epic fail seriously man, stop. Your forum clone wont stand up to another self destruct Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.23 18:28:00 - [142] Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. As such there is nothing wrong with speed tanking and it represents an essential option for hit and run fighting against the odds. Since blobs and blob fighting kill the server performance and make baby Jesus cry its silly to think of ruling out this option from pvp combat. Nano-gangs have plenty of counters already - there is no need to consider limiting their power further by changes to the core game mechanics. "I might not have meant anything by it"
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:09:00 - [143] Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:23:00 - [144] Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. That's just because you dont know anything about the game. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:26:00 - [145] Zulupark isn't a real dev, he's just another dev's alt used for trolling. -
Malken Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:35:00 - [146] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. and the even worse thing is when a cruiser sized ship does upto 10k. dont nerf the dictors nerf vaga speed instead
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:38:00 - [147] Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! Nope, just use another nano ship or a Rapier/huginn Originally by: Tarminic Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:44:00 - [148] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! Nope, just use another nano ship or a Rapier/huginn So we are all doomed to fly Minmatar ships or nanoed Ishtars ????
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.12.23 19:47:00 - [149] Edited by: DHB WildCat on 23/12/2007 19:47:46 This is a very left field idea, but it could work. Can we possibly get some players into the CCP staff, to make sure these guys dont completely ruin the game? We all know the type of player Im referring to, aswell. Myself not included. It just seems to me that CCP staff spend more time drinking and counting money, instead of producing a good product. Lets get rid of some of this useless crap in the game. Please remember that less is more, and what looks like a good idea on paper sux in real applications. WildCat
Admiral Annihilation Ganja Labs Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:09:00 - [150] Originally by: DHB WildCat Edited by: DHB WildCat on 23/12/2007 19:47:46 This is a very left field idea, but it could work. Can we possibly get some players into the CCP staff, to make sure these guys dont completely ruin the game? Or maybe test/balance their new ships, patches BEFORE they release them. That would solve 2 problems; new ships wouldn't need to be nerfed after their released (cutting back on allot of grief), and issues with small little things that end in "ini"... -------------------------------------
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:10:00 - [151] zulu we still love you Trashed sig, Shark was here
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:11:00 - [152] there's a reason why I hold back comments regarding the Live Dev Blog. this is totally related to one of them... /signed. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:17:00 - [153] Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:44:00 - [154] Does no one else see the fundamental problem with speed tanking? Assuming proper lockdown, when shield / armor tanking: 1) You win. 2) Your opponent wins. When speed tanking: 1) You win. 2) You run away. 3) Something goes horribly wrong, and you actually lose. Speed tanking changes the equation from win/lose to win/run. It trivializes the high-loss PvP environment that EVE is built upon to one where the fastest man wins, nearly every time. Say what you want about transversal and theoretical sniper support; when it's you -vs- a halfway intelligent pilot, it's down to who goes faster.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 20:56:00 - [155] Originally by: Amarria Black when it's you -vs- a halfway intelligent pilot, it's down to who goes faster. Not true. I would not engage a Huginn in a Vagabond even though I am faster. Note that speed tanking does not work very well for non-intelligent pilots, they die fast. While speed tanking ships give you more often the option of disengaging than pure armor/shield tankers, you will be outdamaged more often than not and be unable to break tanks that you would break in similar tanking ships. That said, "win or run" is very common in EVE anyway, on a gang level. Most of the time the weaker gang will not engage. Do you want PVP where you have to fight to death every time? Sorry, there are no "Arenas" in EVE. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Gruxella Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.23 21:22:00 - [156] The fact that nano ships can only be effectively countered by two ships in eve shows how speed has gone too far unless the pilot makes a stupid mistake. I applaud the devs for taking this step in the right direction. ---- VHI - We Haul Your Cargo For Free ---- We Miss you Red 7.
dawood koplanski The Sigma Legion	Posted - 2007.12.23 21:31:00 - [157] /signed
Steel Tigeress Gallente Ravenous Inc. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.23 21:33:00 - [158] Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 23/12/2007 21:34:35 I've said this in another speed nerf tread. But oh well: If speed was supposed to be a viable method of tanking, why is it not allowed in missions? What is the reason CCP gave that MWD's are not allowed in mission? The reason that range tanking and kiting would make missions too easy. (The non-fluff reason they gave anyways) Funny that speed tanking does the same thing to PvP as it would do if it were allowed in missions. Speed should be an advantage in PvP, but it should not be THE advantage. Now I do agree with what another said here, the speed on dictors was not whats broken or needed fixing. Its the Snake set in general, and certain HACs. To prove that point, all I need to do is look at the race of the players defending their nano ships. How many are Minmatar? Not many, so they dont have the excuse that race is why they fly those ships. They started out a different race, and switched to Minmatar for a very specific reason. Now they all come flooding here to defend their FOTM playstyle, till they are eventually overnerfed, and a new FOTM is discovered. Then they will all flock to it, till it is soo overused that it gets nerfed too and all this crying starts anew.
Goshinko State War Academy	Posted - 2007.12.23 21:44:00 - [159] Edited by: Goshinko on 23/12/2007 21:47:39 Originally by: Steel Tigeress Edited by: Steel Tigeress on 23/12/2007 21:34:35 I've said this in another speed nerf tread. But oh well: If speed was supposed to be a viable method of tanking, why is it not allowed in missions? What is the reason CCP gave that MWD's are not allowed in mission? The reason that range tanking and kiting would make missions too easy. (The non-fluff reason they gave anyways) Funny that speed tanking does the same thing to PvP as it would do if it were allowed in missions. Speed should be an advantage in PvP, but it should not be THE advantage. Now I do agree with what another said here, the speed on dictors was not whats broken or needed fixing. Its the Snake set in general, and certain HACs. To prove that point, all I need to do is look at the race of the players defending their nano ships. How many are Minmatar? Not many, so they dont have the excuse that race is why they fly those ships. They started out a different race, and switched to Minmatar for a very specific reason. Now they all come flooding here to defend their FOTM playstyle, till they are eventually overnerfed, and a new FOTM is discovered. Then they will all flock to it, till it is soo overused that it gets nerfed too and all this crying starts anew. Meanwhile you get lanced in the face in PvP while flying an armor-tanking light missile Raven. It's an endless cycle. I can see where you're coming from though, NPCs and players are entirely similar. Did you also notice that you can tank like 30 BC NPCs at once in a mission Raven and not in real PvP? Yeah. There's no need to nano, since you kite during missioning anyway. Originally by: IHeartYou However, Crows seem to suit me best because it's just so much fun to toy with your target, then own them with your 150-200dps.
Atama Cardel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:00:00 - [160] Originally by: Mecinia Lua If you wanted to combat the speed problems you could do so easily by just reintroducing mines. Make them deployable and they would take up space like a warp bubble. You'd have small, medium and large minefields. Each available in the four damage types. You could give them FoF recognition such that they would ignore friendly ships and attack enemy ships. Make them so folks can build them. They could be removed by attacking them. They possibly could also have a time limit. Say they disappear after 7 days and have to be replaced. You could then anchor them in a system you have sovereignty over. They then would do damage to enemy/neutral ships every minute. Just how I think it would be solved better than the nerfs, probably would help against blobs too. I like this idea, also make it so you don't get aggro when they start damaging enemy ships on the off chance you're in empire when they go off
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:08:00 - [161] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. That's just because you dont know anything about the game. please dont troll.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:10:00 - [162] Originally by: Sakura Nihil Here's the thing. Ultimately, the more speed you want, the more you have to pay for it. If you run into a Sabre doing 10 km/s, and you kill him, you deal some serious financial damage. These things are not that common. And there's a difference between a frigate or dictor going that speed and a BS - the latter needed a nerf, without a doubt, but don't destroy the main defenses of a critical fleet ship. Those BS doing that speed (3 or 4k per second) are quite easy to catch and have all the tank of a wet paper towel. Think out of the box. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:21:00 - [163] Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 22:22:16 Originally by: Gruxella The fact that nano ships can only be effectively countered by two ships in eve shows how speed has gone too far unless the pilot makes a stupid mistake. I applaud the devs for taking this step in the right direction. The fact that you make such a post is funny. It shows that you know nothing about the game or tactics within Eve. You can catch a snaked vagabond with a three ship tactic. You need an interdictor, any ship with two webs and any damage ship. How? You figure it out if you have a brain. There are many ships in the game that counter a vagabond. A Curse, Rapier, Hugin will kill them flat out. Neither a Vagabond nor any other ship would come within about 50km of my Curse. A Falcon will jam them and render them a spectator -- ditto for the Griffin, Blackbird, Scorpion and Kitsune. Three well flown interceptors will track him down and kil lhim or force him to run away. A sniping battleship will cream the vagabond at range. A single Maulus, Arazu or Lachesis will damp them down so far they cant target thier own shoelaces. A single crucifier or anyone else with tracking disruptors will make the ship effectively not there as its guns wont be able to hit anything. What do I do with a Vaga thats jammed, damped, tracked or so on? I ignore it. It might as well be some covops spectating in my fight. If I want to catch it, I get creative. Your problem is that your thinking is shallow, reminding me of one of those big dumb guys stereotyped in mobster movies that can think of nothing but "I am bigger, me should be able to pound you." The game is more than gank and tank. It is a game heavy on tactics and SKILLS of the pilots under your command. You, and Zulupark, clearly know nothing about this game. You fit up your ship and think combat is F1 through F8 and that is why people own you. The difference between you and those pilots frustrating you is that they know how to play and you should still be running missions for your academy agent in 1.0 space. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:23:00 - [164] Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Rells Originally by: Dorisane Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. ^^ indeed. Beyond fitting the ship, there's about squatt tactical about eve. Maybe the odd warp here or trap laid down there, but thats about it. Alot of the precieved "tactical" aspect of eve is pretty shallow. That's just because you dont know anything about the game. please dont troll. Its not trolling, its stating fact. Anyone who makes a statement like that knows nothing about eve. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Mjnari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:31:00 - [165] May I offer the following pyramid as the zenith of Egyptian architectural achievement in this thread? Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... For context: yes, there are people who call a Fleet Fit v. Fleet Fit slugfest the only 'fair' or 'honorable' PvP in the game. I disagree. Just because TRI, MC, PL, or any of the other creative organizations in the game triumphed over you doesn't mean they're not fighting fairly -- it only means you already lost the battle that started when they spent time thinking about using setups, tactics, and gang composition in novel ways. And that's the battle I play EVE for. ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:33:00 - [166] ah line up and die warfare wasn't that abolished with slavery? Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Dorisane	Posted - 2007.12.23 22:53:00 - [167] Edited by: Dorisane on 23/12/2007 22:55:25 Originally by: Rells Its not trolling, its stating fact. Anyone who makes a statement like that knows nothing about eve. you've not stated anything, nor made any argument. you're trolling. edit: im sorry if you've been offended somehow by the idea that the game revolves largly around cookie cutter setups used in exactly the same way 9 times out of 10 resulting in little more than rock-paper-sissors, but frankly, to me at least, it does. its not a flame against eve, but a ray of concern that this aspect of the game needs to improve in the future.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:15:00 - [168] Edited by: Lazuran on 23/12/2007 23:15:27 Originally by: Dorisane edit: im sorry if you've been offended somehow by the idea that the game revolves largly around cookie cutter setups used in exactly the same way 9 times out of 10 resulting in little more than rock-paper-sissors, but frankly, to me at least, it does. ... and rock-paper-scissors would be so much better if you just took the paper away, right? Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:42:00 - [169] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 23/12/2007 23:46:02 edit for meh... unnecessary post here. already been said a hundred times in the thread
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:48:00 - [170] @Dirk - please repost your original text, it was reinforcement to the people who know what they're talking about, and we need all of that we can get to hammer it into the unbeliever's skulls.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:57:00 - [171] ccp squandered their credibility with their continued references to drinking beer in the face of multiple programming "mishaps". irreverance (by the devs) is one thing (and much appreciated) - however, when quality is compromised (through continued mistakes), then perhaps its time reconsider the "company persona". -jg.
DaveW Caldari South Park Development	Posted - 2007.12.23 23:57:00 - [172] In the Sprit of Christmas I say we.. Burn Him....!!!!! --------------------------------------------------- "If you can't stand the heat..., stay out of the Kitchen."
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:02:00 - [173] Originally by: DaveW In the Sprit of Christmas I say we.. Burn Him....!!!!! Don't u mean 'cook like a turkey' :D So he's been at it again huh? I personally think ZP got a grudge against eve, mebbe he got podded too many times and now wants his revenge CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:05:00 - [174] isn't that what he said? he just cooks like my mother Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:06:00 - [175] Originally by: Dorisane Edited by: Dorisane on 23/12/2007 22:55:25 Originally by: Rells Its not trolling, its stating fact. Anyone who makes a statement like that knows nothing about eve. you've not stated anything, nor made any argument. you're trolling. edit: im sorry if you've been offended somehow by the idea that the game revolves largly around cookie cutter setups used in exactly the same way 9 times out of 10 resulting in little more than rock-paper-sissors, but frankly, to me at least, it does. its not a flame against eve, but a ray of concern that this aspect of the game needs to improve in the future. Why should I be offended by something that is so horriobly uninfomred and false. That would be like being offended by some fool declaring the world is flat. You are just completely and utterly wrong, inunfomed and ignorant. Skedattle back to WoW or some other game more your mental speed. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:10:00 - [176] Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:10:40 Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... 25k neuts only on bs. rest does not kill nanofit.. so i still need other people to nail down a single nanofit. to kill a nanofit i need to blob it..
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:12:00 - [177] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Igetshotalot and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! Nope, just use another nano ship or a Rapier/huginn The only time you need <4 ships to kill a smart nanoship pilot is if you set your bubble up 80km off the gate, and have your rapier wait on the edge for the nanoship. But then, the nanoship wouldn't be very smart to warp into the bubble in the first place. Please know what you are talking about or STFU. Originally by: Lazuran That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... Do you even read what you post? Forcing a nano ship to disengage is hardly a counter. Now, trapping it, that takes skill to do with any less than 4 pilots, and a clever one wont fall for bog-standard traps and a faster one will be off before rapier recalibration or huginn grid-load finishes.. Originally by: Lazuran That said, "win or run" is very common in EVE anyway, on a gang level. Most of the time the weaker gang will not engage. Do you want PVP where you have to fight to death every time? Sorry, there are no "Arenas" in EVE. Yes. I want PvP where I potentially have to fight to the death, every time. Get over yourself, weaker gangs run.. sure, but when they aren't nano'd you at least have a chance at catching and trapping a few. That's called consequence, if you mess with a foe you cannot handle, they should have a chance at retribution. Originally by: Rells Originally by: Gruxella The fact that nano ships can only be effectively countered by two ships in eve shows how speed has gone too far unless the pilot makes a stupid mistake. I applaud the devs for taking this step in the right direction. The fact that you make such a post is funny. It shows that you know nothing about the game or tactics within Eve. You can catch a snaked vagabond with a three ship tactic. You need an interdictor, any ship with two webs and any damage ship. How? You figure it out if you have a brain. Regardless of whether he meant two specific ships, or two ships agaisnt one, you just confirmed his point. Also, that combo you mentioned does squat when the nano ship just waits around for the bubble to go down at a safe spot.. Don't distract from what you are trying to do here, please clarify. Do you think Interdictors should be 5km/s (I think so, even more for poly+snakes) Do you think Nano-HACs should be doing 5km/s (I don't, except for the Vagabond - for obvious RP reasons) Do you think it's right that you need so many ships to catch a nano pilot? (I sure as hell don't) You bring up good arguments Rells, but I think are confusing the current EVE with what EVE was 6-12 months ago. Now it's difficult to find someone not fitting cookie-cutter nanos in 12+ man gangs, noone is saying that's right, just pointing out how disturbing it is. Background: I fly poly'd Rapier + Sabre combo so I can nom nom nom on nanof4gs. More background: My corp does not allow >2 poly'd vessels in gangs, which never exceed 10.a =====
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:15:00 - [178] The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:20:00 - [179] Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:)
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:23:00 - [180] Originally by: d026 so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Again, if you think that all that is required to "fly a nanoship" is certain fittings and implants, then you have a completely skewed view of how this game works. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 isk. Seriously, take an AGONY PVP-BASIC course if all you think of combat is F1-F8. It will open your eyes, and you might even enjoy it if you allow yourself to.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:25:00 - [181] Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:25:51 Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: d026 so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Again, if you think that all that is required to "fly a nanoship" is certain fittings and implants, then you have a completely skewed view of how this game works. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 isk. Seriously, take an AGONY PVP-BASIC course if all you think of combat is F1-F8. It will open your eyes, and you might even enjoy it if you allow yourself to. omg! the magic of activating a mwd and clicking arround checking overview! you are so amazing.. l3333333333333t DUDE! /edit had to correct l33t
Corstaad Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:27:00 - [182] Every decent pvp game develops kiting and extending to combat blobs. If they nerf the hell out of nano ships its a huge step backwards for EvE.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:28:00 - [183] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Clearly you have never fought AGONY. We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:30:00 - [184] Originally by: Rells Originally by: d026 Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Clearly you have never fought AGONY. We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you. can i sign up with my alt?:)
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:35:00 - [185] Edited by: Rells on 24/12/2007 00:35:44 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Rells Originally by: d026 Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Clearly you have never fought AGONY. We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you. can i sign up with my alt?:) For the class? Feel free. No one in the class joins AGONY so its no security risk at all. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
DHB WildCat BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:46:00 - [186] Rells you troll and make less sense than I do... let that sink in for a minute. Now make a point. You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena? Speed is fine on some ships. Dictors for eample.... get in drop bubble get out. No damage their and no tank to hold anything down. Now a vaga or ishtar, of which I fly both fyi. These ships exploit speed. They utilize it to be invulnerable. Now I will exploit this until they fix it. I have never felt safer in a ship than I do in a vaga. Nothing can catch me at 9-10k. Except maybe a ceptor that has to run in a straight line to get to me, in which case I kill it with my guns 8). To be able to attack a ship without having to commit yourself is something people used to do with stabs 8). So since I am in the habit of not dying I will exploit the game as much as I can and use the unkillable ships. If I see a rapier / huginn. Ill disengage and warp off. As long as CCP is drunk and do not play the game, then Ill use this exploit to my advantage like any other smart pilot. I'll use it, but I hate it. Althoguh I really do love my Mach 8). WildCat
skipper johnson The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:48:00 - [187] A. For the people that say Eve is Not tactical..... are you even undocking? Or perhaps you're someone who doesn't think Eve is tactical, and then you probably also die an awful lot, and blame it on Eve being "unbalanced." Let me put some tactics down for you... One small example: Thorax trying to run a bob gatecamp - mwd fitted, but no wcs.. Warp to gate, jump through.. find dictor, inty, hac and stealth bomber on the other side... dictor bubbles up, and everyone attacks... In the Thorax, I MWD back to gate at 1000m/s taking a ton of dmg... and manage to jump through. They're agressed and have to wait. I re approach gate on the other side. Inty and dictor jump through, and start shooting me, followed by the hac and the bomber... I don't agress. Wait for them all to have agressed, jump back through and warp off because they can't follow me. This is using game mechanics, my ships fittings, and TACTICS... HTF is this not tactical? In combat, pre-trinity, I have killed a Nano-Sabre using a dual webbed Heretic... using TACTICS... MWD, Heat, and a bit of planning and playing on the Sabre's overconfidence... B. I do fly a dictor, and honestly, they're paper thin. The only thing they had going for them before was that they had a bit of speed to sometimes get away... my new fitting for a dictor is just 1 launcher and 1 bubble (don't need anything else, you're going to go pop as soon as someone sees you anyway)... and then when you find yourself in a new clone, refit and head back out to the battle... C. I do NOT fly minmatarr...and will NOT be training to fly a Vagabond, and I say they're fine the way they are. I've even been chased by a Vagabond in my 6000m/s crusader... he was faster than me... and yes I've died to Vagabonds and Nanogang's quite a bit (Thanks Triumvirate :) and MDK), but I still think they're fine. There are counters to them, although somewhat difficult... I think my point D. will deal with them quite nicely actually. D. Change Webifiers. Don't nerf speed mods! They're super expensive, and they are NOT an I win button. Give a skill based range factor to webs with an inverse factor of web strength. Hell, even make scripts to increase range with a penalty to web strength. ie. Web is 80% effective at 10km, but only 50% at 15km, and 30% at 25km...
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:49:00 - [188] Originally by: Corstaad Every decent pvp game develops kiting and extending to combat blobs. If they nerf the hell out of nano ships its a huge step backwards for EvE. In this case the cure is worse than the disease, there's more than one kind of combat in EVE. In addition while kiting is a game enhancing tactic in many MMOs it is usually coupled with an array of root type abilities that are not restricted to slapping range. Typical "kiting classes" certainly don't get the bonus of zipping around at dozens of times the speed of others, with no intercept or teleport abilities in game, and a single root ability limited to the equivalent of touch range. Nor do they gain massive damage reduction provided through tracking, drone speed, and missile velocity. Did I mention the EVE equivalent of bubble hearth.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:51:00 - [189] I have to admit, that the interdictor pilot's life expectancy is already extremely limited, nerfing them any more would be insane. Its not like they have awesome tanks. I have to agree with the OP, Zulupark has to fly that role on TQ, jumping/warping into a hostile fleet to almost certain death, not just the "play PvP" on Sisi. --
Malachi Greys	Posted - 2007.12.24 00:52:00 - [190] Just give low slot speed mods a grid requirement. You can go as fast as you like, but you better be prepared to do naff all damage.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:01:00 - [191] Originally by: Malachi Greys Just give low slot speed mods a grid requirement. You can go as fast as you like, but you better be prepared to do naff all damage. If you have the skills to fly say... a Vagabond, please go onto Sisi and fit a Vaga and then try MWDing around a cruiser/battlecruiser/battleship while shooting at it. Let me know how much damage you do. Or save yourself the time and let me tell you that you do no appreciable damage while zipping around. Let alone that fact that you cannot indefinitely run your MWD, especially if someone has a NOS/Neut on you. Speed fit ships already sacrifice tank and damage to attain high speed. In return, they have the ability to avoid more encounters than a heavily tanked ship, if they so choose. No ship in this game is invulnerable, or undestroyable, you simply need to think tactically and lure him into a trap, or bring in a sniper or two, or any one of a dozen options you can either chase him off or kill him with. It's not rocket science (no pun intended). It does require a bit of thought.
Cthulhu Destroyer Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:04:00 - [192] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf Nor do they gain massive damage reduction provided through tracking, drone speed, and missile velocity Does it really need to be said that tracking works both ways? Try MWDing around something roughly your size and shooting at it. You'll miss. A lot. To deal out anything approaching decent damage, you need to slow down... and then missiles and drones and whatnot come back into play.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:38:00 - [193] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:10:40 Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... 25k neuts only on bs. rest does not kill nanofit.. so i still need other people to nail down a single nanofit. to kill a nanofit i need to blob it.. If it is fast enough to get away from you, you need to blob it as much as you need to blob a ship that can tank well enough for 1 enemy. It's unbelievable how narrow-minded some people are. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Madboy Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.12.24 01:41:00 - [194] Nerfs, nerfs and more nerfs. Don't worry Zulu. I say let's keep nerfing. At this rate, everything should suck equally, in a matter of no time! Then everyone will have something to bit ch at! Woot!! Go Zulu!! Swing that bat!! - MadBoy
7shining7one7 Quafe Paladins	Posted - 2007.12.24 02:18:00 - [195] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Save your breath Jakus, no one in authority is going to take this thread seriously, the only people whining in it are the ones that only come to the forums to whine The usual suspects are just kept around to feed me, not to be taken seriously you lost your marbles..
boogabugu	Posted - 2007.12.24 02:23:00 - [196] Holy crap. How could someone be dumb enough to change interdictors in that way and still be able to participate in a live blog? http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg
Cracoc Kazoo Corporation	Posted - 2007.12.24 03:08:00 - [197] In my opinion, i honestly think that CCP are turning this game more and more into WoW. They want to make the game more simpler to keep newer players, and attract new and younger players to the game. Average lifespan of an Eve player is 7months (Prof Econ QEN). What better way to keep those 7mth old players is to make the game more simpler for them to play by nerfing. The older player just gets new stuff to play with, to compensate their skills training time and then their new toys are nerfed somewhere 6-12months down the road to make it easier for the newer player to kill. CCP are out to balance the players of Eve, not the ships or modules.
Herring Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2007.12.24 03:11:00 - [198] Gotta wonder where this nerf is coming from...is it from the whine crowd? Is it from a report that gamewide dictor destruction is down 40% from last year? Could it be from someone that actually played in 0.0 and flew these ships? *I think NOT.* CCP - please stop with the nerfing and boost something already.
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.24 03:12:00 - [199] Originally by: Rells Originally by: d026 Originally by: Rells The fact that you have to use tactics and strategy and the other guy will try to use it as well reinforces, not detracts, from my point. The game should NEVER boil down to allowing the incompetent to defeat the skilled. so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Clearly you have never fought AGONY. We teach many of our tactics to students. If your idea of pvp is what you've expressed in this thread then the class could be beneficial to you. I led an INFOD + mixed battleship gang to BWF one time, an AGONY gang came and attacked us, even though they almost out-numbered us 2:1 it was just a bloodpath. AGONY utilized no tactics with their EW compliment warping straight to the gate, it was NOM NOM NOM and I had to stop calling targets because you all died so fast. I said fire at will and one guy managed to rack up 11 killmails! :D So yeah, stop chest beating about your "tactics". I thought you were posting about dictors, but now you've made it a nanof4g thing. The stupidly fast poly HACs are the reason CCP make these stupid nerfs in the first place. =====
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.24 03:14:00 - [200] Originally by: Cracoc In my opinion, i honestly think that CCP are turning this game more and more into WoW. They want to make the game more simpler to keep newer players, and attract new and younger players to the game. Average lifespan of an Eve player is 7months (Prof Econ QEN). What better way to keep those 7mth old players is to make the game more simpler for them to play by nerfing. The older player just gets new stuff to play with, to compensate their skills training time and then their new toys are nerfed somewhere 6-12months down the road to make it easier for the newer player to kill. CCP are out to balance the players of Eve, not the ships or modules. I agree with this. CCP are dumbing down their game to attract the masses. CCP don't want a cold, harsh universe, they want cold, hard cash. =====
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.24 04:27:00 - [201] Zulupark is the only dev that has NO CLUE ABOUT THE GAME he is working with. He is wrong on carriers, he is wrong on nano, he is wrong on everything he blogs about. Probably played WoW before this as he sounds just like the whiners and nerf callers do. he is epic fail in every catagory
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 04:46:00 - [202] Quote: Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods Can someone please explain to me what this means. Don't all speed mods, and rigs, already have stacking penalties? Also, I generally (from what I've seen in the year or so I've been playing) have a lot of faith in CCP and its dev team in general to make good, intelligent design and balance decisions. But this one person, Zulupark, I have now seen so many quotes from him on game balance issues that are so off-the wall just plain wrong and so clueless about how this game works that it's mindboggling. I just don't understand how this person could have been allowed anywhere near the position he holds in CCP. You can't have someone so obviously clueless about how this game works being allowed a say at all on game balancing issues. Fire this guy and go back to making good decisions like you (until very recently) used to do.
Optique Sixth Degree Communications	Posted - 2007.12.24 04:59:00 - [203] Edited by: Optique on 24/12/2007 04:59:36 You know what's really sad about this situation? That I'm no longer surprised when I see these tepid whine threads. If only you could some how harness this whiny nerd-rage into actual constructive criticism not laced with insults, maybe this computer game you're getting so angry about might be more to your liking. But hey! What's more satisfying to bark like a donkey on the forums and then whine and complain to your friends about how none of the developers listened to you. Keep braying, guys. I'll be over here playing a game.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 05:05:00 - [204] Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game. Not once it is ruined.
Optique Sixth Degree Communications	Posted - 2007.12.24 05:17:00 - [205] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game. Not once it is ruined. If I had a nickel for every time a game change made a group of sheep type "/signed" on the forums in angry complaint about how it will "ruin" the game, well then I'd be very very rich.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 05:21:00 - [206] Originally by: Optique Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Optique I'll be over here playing a game. Not once it is ruined. If I had a nickel for every time a game change made a group of sheep type "/signed" on the forums in angry complaint about how it will "ruin" the game, well then I'd be very very rich. It's not about a particular change or other. Trust me, I'm normally part of the anti-whine brigade on these forums. It's about a long series of statements this person has made that shows clearly that he doesn't know the first thing about how this game works coupled with the fact that he has a say in decisions on major changes to this game. It doesn't matter what the changes are. It could be anything. Having someone like him working on balancing issues, at all, is scary to anyone who enjoys this game.
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.24 05:46:00 - [207] ***** Albion gets their *** mez spells that don't cancel once the target gets attacked oh come the on Mythic, you ***** suck. oh wait
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 05:48:00 - [208] Originally by: Hannobaal Quote: Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods Can someone please explain to me what this means. Don't all speed mods, and rigs, already have stacking penalties? Some do, some dont. Implants have no penalties. Gang mods have no penalties. Mass modifications and velocity bonuses being seperate mods are not panalized agianst each other. Imagine for a minute that there were two types of damage mod. One increased damage only and one increaed RoF only. Imagine also that they were individually as strong as the double mods we have now, 23% dmg and 19% rof[for the first mod.] Well currently this produces an Armageddon with about 1174 dps with 3 damage mods. After such a change 3 damage mods would produce a Geddon that did 1261 dps. Not much of a change. But the Geddon would be able to fit 4 damage mods for 1448 dps. And 5 damage mods for 1597 dps, and 6 damage mods for 1794 dps Now, this isnt old gank-a-geddon style, but it exemplifys the problem of two attributes boosting the same property of a ship.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:03:00 - [209] Originally by: DHB WildCat You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena? Answer: another speed ship. Vaga vs Vaga. Nanoship vs nanoship. Originally by: DHB WildCat Speed is fine on some ships. Dictors for eample.... get in drop bubble get out. No damage their and no tank to hold anything down. Now a vaga or ishtar, of which I fly both fyi. These ships exploit speed. They utilize it to be invulnerable. Now I will exploit this until they fix it. I have never felt safer in a ship than I do in a vaga. Nothing can catch me at 9-10k. Except maybe a ceptor that has to run in a straight line to get to me, in which case I kill it with my guns 8). 9-10k speeds cannot be achieved without insvesting several billion isk into your ship and pod. While you may have 10:1 kill ratio, the cost of that 1 death may still be greater than all the kills you made combined. I notice some people argue against speed ships from point of view that high speed is unnatural. But what if it's all the tank and gank setups that are unnatural? why shouldn't speed ships be the mainstream of all pvp? why are so many people using slow ships? lets nerf slow ships so they are much less effective in pvp and boost speed, so more people enjoy that style of combat. Certainly it is more fun than slow combat, and people can last longer with speed ships, doesn't CCP want to pro-long combat duration and have people not die as much? Speed ship pvp can be mainstream. Originally by: DHB WildCat To be able to attack a ship without having to commit yourself is something people used to do with stabs 8). So since I am in the habit of not dying I will exploit the game as much as I can and use the unkillable ships. If I see a rapier / huginn. Ill disengage and warp off. As long as CCP is drunk and do not play the game, then Ill use this exploit to my advantage like any other smart pilot. I'll use it, but I hate it. Althoguh I really do love my Mach 8). WildCat I am pretty sure that speed ships die nearly as often as slow ships, especially if you think in terms of isk lost per ship. I would strongly encourage CCP to look up statistics on all ships killed and compare the numbers by ship class, ship race, and speed mod fitted ships vs other ships. That data would be quite interesting. Without it, we cannot make firm statements on invulnerability status of specific setups. From personal experience, all ships die, no matter how good they are. There is no true invulnerability. But some ships/pilots are always better than others.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:05:00 - [210] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 06:05:25 Originally by: Ephemeron I am pretty sure that speed ships die nearly as often as slow ships, especially if you think in terms of isk lost per ship I am 100% sure this is false.
Optique Sixth Degree Communications	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:09:00 - [211] Originally by: Hannobaal It's about a long series of statements this person has made that shows clearly that he doesn't know the first thing about how this game works coupled with the fact that he has a say in decisions on major changes to this game. It doesn't matter what the changes are. It could be anything. Having someone like him working on balancing issues, at all, is scary to anyone who enjoys this game. My issue isn't with the message, it's in how it's delivered. I can understand and recognize the concern, it's just the "sky is falling the devs are idiots" etc etc approach that I'm sick of seeing.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:16:00 - [212] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 06:05:25 Originally by: Ephemeron I am pretty sure that speed ships die nearly as often as slow ships, especially if you think in terms of isk lost per ship I am 100% sure this is false. You may be right. That's why I call on CCP to release hard data. Give us statistics to settle this issue. They have the data
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:18:00 - [213] Originally by: Goumindong Some do, some dont. Implants have no penalties. Gang mods have no penalties. 1. He said speed mods. Those aren't speed mods. 2. Bonuses from implants and gang bonuses never, ever, have stacking penalties regardless of what they are for. Quote: Mass modifications and velocity bonuses being seperate mods are not panalized agianst each other. They aren't penalized against each other not because they are separate modules but because they give bonuses to completely different attributes. You simply can't have stacking penaties between them. And that's the same for everything else out there that has stacking penalties. Quote: Imagine for a minute that there were two types of damage mod. One increased damage only and one increaed RoF only. Allready the case with rigs, and they get stacking penalties with each other and with regular modules on the same attribute only. Quote: Imagine also that they were individually as strong as the double mods we have now, 23% dmg and 19% rof[for the first mod.] Well currently this produces an Armageddon with about 1174 dps with 3 damage mods. After such a change 3 damage mods would produce a Geddon that did 1261 dps. Not much of a change. But the Geddon would be able to fit 4 damage mods for 1448 dps. And 5 damage mods for 1597 dps, and 6 damage mods for 1794 dps Now, this isnt old gank-a-geddon style, but it exemplifys the problem of two attributes boosting the same property of a ship. Ok, then explain to me how you could possibly implement stacking penaties between two modules that have effects on completely different attributes. And, if he did mean that they would implement a completely new form of stacking penalties like that (for different attributes), that does not exist in the game at the moment, why wouldn't he have explained that instead of just saying "stacking penalties"? The only possible explanation I can think of is that he was talking about afterburners and microwarpdrives (where the bonuses actually don't get stacking penalties at the moment). IF that is what he meant, then I would hope they are smart enough to only do it for microwarpdrives and leave afterburners as they are.
Gruxella Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:20:00 - [214] Originally by: Rells The fact that you make such a post is funny. It shows that you know nothing about the game or tactics within Eve. You can catch a snaked vagabond with a three ship tactic. You need an interdictor, any ship with two webs and any damage ship. How? You figure it out if you have a brain. Insults won't cut it. Quote: There are many ships in the game that counter a vagabond. A Curse, Rapier, Hugin will kill them flat out. Neither a Vagabond nor any other ship would come within about 50km of my Curse. A Falcon will jam them and render them a spectator -- ditto for the Griffin, Blackbird, Scorpion and Kitsune. Three well flown interceptors will track him down and kil lhim or force him to run away. A sniping battleship will cream the vagabond at range. A single Maulus, Arazu or Lachesis will damp them down so far they cant target thier own shoelaces. A single crucifier or anyone else with tracking disruptors will make the ship effectively not there as its guns wont be able to hit anything. What do I do with a Vaga thats jammed, damped, tracked or so on? I ignore it. It might as well be some covops spectating in my fight. If I want to catch it, I get creative. All good ideas, but that doesnt mean I can kill the vagabond. He can just run away. Sure he's countered, but he's still alive and will be back. However I want to reiterate that I am not talking about vagabonds, I'm talking about nano-ships in general. Quote: Your problem is that your thinking is shallow, reminding me of one of those big dumb guys stereotyped in mobster movies that can think of nothing but "I am bigger, me should be able to pound you." The game is more than gank and tank. It is a game heavy on tactics and SKILLS of the pilots under your command. Again you use insults. You assume that I don't use tactics because I dont fly a nano ship. Nano setups are the get out of jail free card. They don't require tactics beyond manually flying and keeping an eye on your range to target. I fit myself a nano-vexor the other day. It doesnt do much damage but I can engage whatever I want with minimal risk. This is the problem with nano setups, and I think DHB WildCat sums it up nicely, as quoted at the end of this post. Quote: You, and Zulupark, clearly know nothing about this game. You fit up your ship and think combat is F1 through F8 and that is why people own you. The difference between you and those pilots frustrating you is that they know how to play and you should still be running missions for your academy agent in 1.0 space. No one is owning me. Eve is an ever evolving game. I've learned to deal with nano ships. That doesn't mean I need to like them. Your constant trolling is only making you look bad. If you want to take this further, find me in game. Originally by: DHB WildCat ... Now make a point. You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena? Speed is fine on some ships. Dictors for eample.... get in drop bubble get out. No damage their and no tank to hold anything down. Now a vaga or ishtar, of which I fly both fyi. These ships exploit speed. They utilize it to be invulnerable. Now I will exploit this until they fix it. I have never felt safer in a ship than I do in a vaga. Nothing can catch me at 9-10k. Except maybe a ceptor that has to run in a straight line to get to me, in which case I kill it with my guns 8). To be able to attack a ship without having to commit yourself is something people used to do with stabs 8). So since I am in the habit of not dying I will exploit the game as much as I can and use the unkillable ships. If I see a rapier / huginn. Ill disengage and warp off. As long as CCP is drunk and do not play the game, then Ill use this exploit to my advantage like any other smart pilot. I'll use it, but I hate it. Althoguh I really do love my Mach 8). WildCat Thank you. ---- VHI - We Haul Your Cargo For Free ---- We Miss you Red 7.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:24:00 - [215] Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 06:25:14 Edited by: Goumindong on 24/12/2007 06:24:54 Originally by: Hannobaal 1. He said speed mods. Those aren't speed mods. 2. Bonuses from implants and gang bonuses never, ever, have stacking penalties regardless of what they are for. 1. Maybe he was refering to things that modify speed? 2. Gang mod bonuses are stacked as normal attribute enhancements of any kind that are stacked. The speed bonus given by the gang mod that increase speed actually increase mwd/ab speed boost, which is not boosted by any other module or attribute in the game. Such there is no penalty accociated with it. Quote: They aren't penalized against each other not because they are separate modules but because they give bonuses to completely different attributes. You simply can't have stacking penaties between them. And that's the same for everything else out there that has stacking penalties. Yes, you are catching on now. Quote: Allready the case with rigs, and they get stacking penalties with each other and with regular modules on the same attribute only. Good, now its understood you get the concept. Now can you understand the magnitude? Quote: Ok, then explain to me how you could possibly implement stacking penaties between two modules that have effects on completely different attributes. Its quite easy, you change what the modules do.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:29:00 - [216] Originally by: Optique Originally by: Hannobaal It's about a long series of statements this person has made that shows clearly that he doesn't know the first thing about how this game works coupled with the fact that he has a say in decisions on major changes to this game. It doesn't matter what the changes are. It could be anything. Having someone like him working on balancing issues, at all, is scary to anyone who enjoys this game. My issue isn't with the message, it's in how it's delivered. I can understand and recognize the concern, it's just the "sky is falling the devs are idiots" etc etc approach that I'm sick of seeing. Not "the devs are idiots", but "this particular dev has, in my opinion, shown with several statements he has made that he doesn't belong in the position he is in because he doesn't seem to know what he is talking about". The rest I don't have a problem with. I love CCP. And up until very recently I've been impressed with them and the changes they've made to the game in the time I've spent playing this game. Take for example the so-called "nano-nerf" back in spring this year. It was excellent. The way speed mods work now is so much better, and so much more logical, than the way they were before it. The Inertial Stabilizers were bizarrely overpowered and the different bonuses for the three speed/agility low-slot modules didn't make any sense. It was fixed in a simple and elegant way.
Plaetean Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:30:00 - [217] Originally by: Ephemeron No more nerfing please seriously, stop chopping up the game CCP this ffs this, stop killing the game. -----
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:32:00 - [218] Quote: Ok, then explain to me how you could possibly implement stacking penaties between two modules that have effects on completely different attributes. Having some programming experience myself, I'm pretty sure EVE has 1 stacking penalty formular that applies to every possible mod marked with a "stacking" flag. It wouldn't be too hard to make separate stacking formulars for speed mods, but still quite a bit, I don't think CCP wants to work that hard. Most importantly, I don't believe in nerfing. We don't need to nerf anything. Boosting + new mods is the proper answer, that gives positive reaction instead of negative.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:39:00 - [219] Originally by: Goumindong 2. Gang mod bonuses are stacked as normal attribute enhancements of any kind that are stacked. The speed bonus given by the gang mod that increase speed actually increase mwd/ab speed boost, which is not boosted by any other module or attribute in the game. Such there is no penalty accociated with it. No, you are wrong. There are no stacking penaties for any bonuses in this game except for those that come from modules and rigs. No bonuses from implants, skills, ships, gangs or anything like that get stacking penalties, ever. Quote: Its quite easy, you change what the modules do. Yeah, except that's not what he said.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 06:45:00 - [220] Edited by: Hannobaal on 24/12/2007 06:45:30 Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Ok, then explain to me how you could possibly implement stacking penaties between two modules that have effects on completely different attributes. Having some programming experience myself, I'm pretty sure EVE has 1 stacking penalty formular that applies to every possible mod marked with a "stacking" flag. It wouldn't be too hard to make separate stacking formulars for speed mods, but still quite a bit, I don't think CCP wants to work that hard. You don't seem to understand how stacking penalties work or how speed mods work in the game right now. Speed mods already have stacking penalties, and they work in the exact same way as they do for every other module type out there that has stacking penalties. What Goumindong was talking about is penalties between overdrives (modules that increase speed) and nanofibers (which reduce mass). Stacking penalties between modules that effect completely different attributes is something that doesn't exist in Eve right now, at all.
xeom Concord Fire Department	Posted - 2007.12.24 07:01:00 - [221] I haven't read all the posts in this here fine thread. But I have to say rells is a terrible poster and his ideas suck. --- -Videos- Viciously Delicious
Constance Noring	Posted - 2007.12.24 07:36:00 - [222] I love watching the bitter tears flow every time CCP removes an "I Win!" button, and the futile attempts at explaining how it's not broken because there's a 0.1% chance of dying if someone brings a specialized counter-setup (although you always fail to mention that the nerf targets would never engage such a ship in the first place). Yeah, CCP is totally ruining the game by forcing people into a situation where they stand a chance to lose their ship Go Zulupark! P.S. Paying x billion for a ship is no guarantee of invulnerability, so cut the "waah waah I payed 3bil for my sabre" crap already.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.12.24 07:39:00 - [223] Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 24/12/2007 07:42:56 Things that should be kept out of eve: Dictor nerfs Drone bay increases (close range frigates like AFs are already useless, you idiots) Speed nerfs, nanophoons were rediculous, nanohacs are not. Things that should be done, now, right now, take the server down and do it: Station hugging nerf. Loggoffski nerf. Local nerf. Remove it in 0.0, we'll figure the rest out, and constellation chat is a no no, it gives people too much heads up, region chat might be sweet though.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 07:49:00 - [224] Originally by: Hannobaal No, you are wrong. There are no stacking penaties for any bonuses in this game except for those that come from modules and rigs. No bonuses from implants, skills, ships, gangs or anything like that get stacking penalties, ever. I'm sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized. Most notably resistances, and ewar strength. Quote: Yeah, except that's not what he said. Yea, except he didnt say anything except "we are looking into it"
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:16:00 - [225] Edited by: insidion on 24/12/2007 08:23:21 Personally I'm somewhat astounded at the lack of general game knowledge on most of the devs part, let alone when it comes to communication between them. No one seems to know what's going on with anything these days, and everything just feels vague, contradictory and without direction. Why the hell is so much getting past the supposed Q+A phase? As a prime example, speed tanking and interdictors. Anyone that has ever used a dictor or flown with them knows that it takes a large amount of skills and parts to even really approach speed tanking. Usually it takes a gistii MWD and polycarbs at the very least, so a few hundred mill at the minimum for a decent dictor. Without this approach, dictors are almost literally defenseless. They completely nerf the tanking ability of these ships without any compensation, leaving them to be sitting ducks in the extreme, and yet they give interceptors a fantastic solution to allow them the 'staying power' they previously lacked to avoid being the constant sacrificial lamb. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled with the inty boost, to me it makes sense, allows them to do their job and is wonderfully balanced. Why not the same approach with another tackling style ship? I don't directly blame zulupark for anything, but ultimately it's definitely time to lay off the sauce CCP. Start focusing on real balance and long outstanding issues instead of phantom ones. Get creative with some of your solutions instead of just arbitrarily introducing MORE sinks into the game. Enough with the absurd nerfs already. Get boosting! PS This upcoming 'trinity boost patch' had better be absolutely amazing. =P
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:26:00 - [226] I think original idea was that nerfing speed of dictors which already were pretty slow compared to bigger ships than their class i.e cruisers was pretty bad idea. Most of interdictors didn't go 10km/s that was only sabre. There is only few ships which can go "too" fast. Which is mostly because of polycarbon rigs, implants, ship bonus and gang bonuses combined. For example sabre has 2 lows and already much better agility/base speed than flycatcher which has only 1 low slot. That means you can make sabre go like twice as fast as flycatcher. Same thing with broadsword/onyx. Or like ishtar which is all-in-one package. It has drones for attacking from range, good tank, lots of meds for tackling and/or speed (4k/s). What we would really need is looking into stats of some ships/modules and balance them rather than nerfing some whole ship class like interdictors which was already utter cannon fodders. This whole dictor nerf was really bad, since I think most of us were left to think that it was only done because sabre went so fast so everything else should be nerfed too. It just simply does not make sense.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:33:00 - [227] Originally by: Cthulhu Destroyer Originally by: d026 so what ueber skills/tactics/strategy do nano pilots use then? yeah 2 x poly + hg snakes.. hell of a masterplan dude:) Again, if you think that all that is required to "fly a nanoship" is certain fittings and implants, then you have a completely skewed view of how this game works. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 isk. Seriously, take an AGONY PVP-BASIC course if all you think of combat is F1-F8. It will open your eyes, and you might even enjoy it if you allow yourself to. Are you capable of going more than two sentences without mentioning your corp and its classes? Please, get over yourself. Save EveTV, please. Sign to ask CCP to fund EveTV!
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.12.24 08:39:00 - [228] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. you obviously dont fly minmatar The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.12.24 10:28:00 - [229] Originally by: Hannobaal Edited by: Hannobaal on 24/12/2007 06:45:30 Originally by: Ephemeron Quote: Ok, then explain to me how you could possibly implement stacking penaties between two modules that have effects on completely different attributes. Having some programming experience myself, I'm pretty sure EVE has 1 stacking penalty formular that applies to every possible mod marked with a "stacking" flag. It wouldn't be too hard to make separate stacking formulars for speed mods, but still quite a bit, I don't think CCP wants to work that hard. You don't seem to understand how stacking penalties work or how speed mods work in the game right now. Speed mods already have stacking penalties, and they work in the exact same way as they do for every other module type out there that has stacking penalties. What Goumindong was talking about is penalties between overdrives (modules that increase speed) and nanofibers (which reduce mass). Stacking penalties between modules that effect completely different attributes is something that doesn't exist in Eve right now, at all. Why are you attacking me on such personal level under disguise of sound arguements? You are going off on a tangent that has little to do with the topic at hand. I have always been anti-BoB if that makes a difference to you. Anyway, I am confident in my understanding of the stacking penalty. I agree that it doesn't apply to modules that modify different attribute values, such as raw speed increase and mass decrease, even tho both of them are speed mods. Devs could add such a stacking penalty as a creative approach to speed nerfing. The real issue for me is that there shouldn't be a nerf to speed. We don't need any more nerfs. And therefore we shouldn't argue how to best implement speed nerfs. We can argue whether a nerf in general is needed or not.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.24 10:55:00 - [230] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:50 Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:36 From a devchat log forwarded to me by a corp mate. Quote: Mindstar - But on to the question that was destined for Zulupark before he strangely disappeared from audio was the question about speed. Is it working as intended? Are ships too fast and what's up with the speed nerfof interdictors? Zulupark - There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Regarding interdictors themselves they were going really fast with proper fittings and it's ship that can bubble up huge amounts of space and it shouldn't be able to zoom in and out. Drop bubble, leave whole fleets into bubble and leave afterwards. Mindstar - Alright bubble up, indeed. On the question of the some of the other changes that are coming in the patch. Torpedoes saw massive change, they have been reduced in range and increased in damage. Is there anything happening with torpedoes? What exactly was the reasoning in particular behind the change? Zulupark - I'll just keep on going in here. I'm going to actually grab follow-up question "Isn't the intended role of interdictor to zoom about and drop bubbles". Yes the intended role is to drop bubbles, but it's not maybe in the intended role that they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. This is ... just .... OMG unbelievable. You read this and think "does this guy bloody play the game?" Zulupark wants to nerf interdictors because they zoom in and drop bubbles? That is what they are suppsed to do. What else are they going to do, drop the bubble and tank? I lost an interdictor once because I sneezed too hard in my pod once. They have the tank of a wet kleenex. Furthermore, his quote... Quote: Zulupark - ...snip... they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. This is just patently false. There are any number of ways of catching an interdictor and if the GM will log on in his interdictor I will have my corp demonstrate a few for him. This last weekend I caught a sabre with a bunch of frigs and we have killed dozens of them in numerous methods. Im sorry for being brutal but its just sad seeing posts like this from someone working on this game. Sad and scary that they might be listened to. If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. I would highly suggest you send this guy to play the game for a few months and think about tactics and then try to come back and suggest things that actually need being done such as repairing the corp interface, repairing amarr and other hot issues. You think Ishtar's going 4km/s with just t2+ t1 and still preserving their dps is normal ? Cerberus nano-ed trades dps for speed, Huginn trades dps for speed, Rapier trades dps for speed, Vagabond trades dps for speed, Sleipnir trades dps for speed, Ishtar DOES NOT TRADE DPS FOR SPEED ! You think that is normal ? While i agree that some ships are fine as they are, there are some ships that pretty much need the nerf-bat in terms of speed. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Theo Samaritan Gallente Pheonix Reborn	Posted - 2007.12.24 11:03:00 - [231] Adapt or die. Thats all I can say. That and until someone proves to me without a doubt that Zulupark does not have a main in EVE like pretty much all the other hands on devs do, I vote give the guy a mother******* break. -------------- Templars do not tank Jita so well without a steady supply of Cake.
Stakhanov Metafarmers	Posted - 2007.12.24 11:09:00 - [232] Originally by: Setana Manoro Ishtar DOES NOT TRADE DPS FOR SPEED ! You think that is normal ? Uh... just stating the obvious here , ishtars can't trade dps for speed because there is no low slot damage mod for drones. Technically , a sentry drone using polycarb ishtar would do less damage than a sentry drone rigged ishtar , tho using sentry drones in a nano fit is pretty wacky.
Yohanes Flame Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 11:12:00 - [233] Edited by: Yohanes Flame on 24/12/2007 11:15:23 I like this game BECAUSE all the ships even inside a class are different not the same. I like that if you spend the time and money to make a great ship it does that, it does great. Nerfing something simply to make it more like something else or using the reasoning that it should be because a different ship isn't as good is not a reason. The huge differences between ships and the kaleidescope of different setups that can be effective is what makes this game different, and is why players like it. The steady devolution of classes into interchangeable between races is a slippery slope for the basic game mechanic that is eve. I am not getting out the tin foil just saying that the preservation of races , class, and skill set advantages should be the most guarded and meticulously approached changes in the entire game. EDIT: typo ____________________________ One Thead to rule them all - Boot.ini pre-patch thread
Feng Schui Minmatar The Ninja Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.24 11:19:00 - [234] Originally by: Dirk Magnum ***** Albion gets their *** mez spells that don't cancel once the target gets attacked oh come the on Mythic, you ***** suck. oh wait rofl although, the way the pilgrim / curse have been nerfed, it does remind me alot like the way Shadowblades where nerfed. Zulupark = Mackey?
BoBoZoBo Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 14:25:00 - [235] I have to say.. I thought the comment about ceptors was weird was odd when I listened to the Dev Blog. WTF ========================= Minister of Propaganda - Operator 9
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2007.12.24 14:46:00 - [236] Edited by: Le Skunk on 24/12/2007 14:46:54 Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: DHB WildCat You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena? Answer: another speed ship. Vaga vs Vaga. Nanoship vs nanoship. Gate, Lachesis, Sensor Boosters, Domination Web, 1 damage dealer equals dead vaga around 50% of the time. SKUNK
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.24 14:53:00 - [237] i going to read it all later... not that i am too lazy, but have been on about this since i heard about it about a 2weeks before the patch... some nerfs to balance yes. But as the op mentioned, while talking about the speed nerf to interdictors, This dev, showed total lack of understanding..... i listened to it at work and was just shocked at his answers.... and shocked the way he seemed not to care for the dev blog (being afk on a live dev blog?? WTF??) Its about time the devs listened to this rather intense user base.... this is not WOW, nad the beauty of this game is the depth it has gone into, its amazing that i can spend years training to be the best pilot i can, while others train to be something different totally and yet we all need each other to complete the total gaming experiance that is EVE. BTW, i fly dictors... but now, i mostly fly interceptors again, IMO they are different roles completely, but i enjoy the speed, i enjoy the thrill of risking all my expensive mods to fly stupid speeds, and spend the next months building back up, to own for a short period of time! THats what i feel like with my full set up, and i rearly get to field it. I am not into pump ten tons of lead into another ship.... to catch them is my role! But, i get shot and die!!! and it hurts! Like everyone else, GOOD TACTICS WORK! Not nerf.... I heard once, that this game was all about team playing, all about great tactics to win, be it PVE/PVP/TRADE etc. And further more... i'd like to see a solo dictor take out a BC (prob poss, who knows, cause i never have seen it) I'd like to see a dictor take out a cruiser (although i have to hold back in trying many times!! or my corp orders me to not engage!!) Anyway... just tell me a good reason for the dictor nerf and i will listen and accept... not 'they bubble large amounts of space' 'they just go too fast'.. thats just lame! and from someone that has not flown one, or not being able to use 'GOOD TACTICS'! I am pleased to read so much vocal reaction regarding the recent Dev Blog, and hope this topic stays up long enough for everyone to see... NEW AND OLD!
Furos Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 15:27:00 - [238] Edited by: Furos on 24/12/2007 15:37:17 I realize that nano fittings are becoming the standard in eve which probably wasn't CCPs goal. But simply nerfing speed is not the answer here. Instead of nerfing speed I think a better solution is to add more counters to speed. Maybe a new mod for the heavy dictor that webs instead of scrams? Or maybe bombs that web. People spend billions of isk and lots of time to specialize in speed, and they should be able to do this. But players should also be able to spend equivalent time / isk and specialize in countering speed. Ships like the rapier are a good start, but are limited in their ability to counter speed. Forcing people to play a certain was is not the answer, but allowing people to counter one specialization with another would certainly make sence to me.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.12.24 15:53:00 - [239] Remember, the fast ship zoomed way out of range no longer poses a threat.... so what's the problem? It comes in close, it dies Originally by: Tarminic Okay, that's it. You are on the KOS list, and you better pray that I don't have access to a locater agent.
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:04:00 - [240] Think back at the time when wcs were nerfed.. why? Same issue now.
Otto Matic	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:23:00 - [241] All the cries for nano nerfs are simply the result of: * CCP boosting Caldari too much * as a result, everyone flying Caldari * all the whiney kids now crying "omg I can't hit him with my missiles" What can you do when 50+% of the user base flies Caldari now? No wonder we are seeing whole 250 man fleets with Caracals and Drakes these days (hi Insurgency & Russian friends).
Dirk Magnum FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:40:00 - [242] Originally by: Yohanes Flame I like this game BECAUSE all the ships even inside a class are different not the same. I like that if you spend the time and money to make a great ship it does that, it does great. Nerfing something simply to make it more like something else or using the reasoning that it should be because a different ship isn't as good is not a reason. The huge differences between ships and the kaleidescope of different setups that can be effective is what makes this game different, and is why players like it. The steady devolution of classes into interchangeable between races is a slippery slope for the basic game mechanic that is eve. Superbly put, this.
Soulita Gallente Inner Core	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:45:00 - [243] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Yohanes Flame I like this game BECAUSE all the ships even inside a class are different not the same. I like that if you spend the time and money to make a great ship it does that, it does great. Nerfing something simply to make it more like something else or using the reasoning that it should be because a different ship isn't as good is not a reason. The huge differences between ships and the kaleidescope of different setups that can be effective is what makes this game different, and is why players like it. The steady devolution of classes into interchangeable between races is a slippery slope for the basic game mechanic that is eve. Superbly put, this. Got to say.... .... I agree.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:54:00 - [244] Originally by: Otto Matic All the cries for nano nerfs are simply the result of: * CCP boosting Caldari too much * as a result, everyone flying Caldari * all the whiney kids now crying "omg I can't hit him with my missiles" What can you do when 50+% of the user base flies Caldari now? No wonder we are seeing whole 250 man fleets with Caracals and Drakes these days (hi Insurgency & Russian friends). So, it's only Caldari that can't kill them Although the prospect of a missile, not being able to catch the ship us pretty hilarious by itself, the problem is not only with Caldari. It's also with Amarr, who can't track those ships. Race that has best anti-speed tools are Minmatar. Great news for those who spent ages to specialize in other races. Minmatar Cruiser is easily taken to lvl 5, yes, as well as other Minmatar specializations. Just look at what is going on in 0.0 besides huge blobfests. Look at Outbreak gangs, Triumvirate gangs. They are nano-gangs. Why? Those guys can chose what to fly, yet most of their gangs are nano. There should be a reason for that. Where's the diversity you fight for? Many ships are not even seriously used because of the current nano-trend. They are not good to blob, and they are not good to roam, because they can't be nano'ed. Nerfing this trend will only increase diversity, because nano will not be an automatic PvPer's choice.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:58:00 - [245] actually it makes perfect sense that a missile cant catch me, er us, they still use basic rocket propulsion and hence cant achieve the speeds a ships more advanced drive can Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Ephemeral Waves The Nine Gates	Posted - 2007.12.24 16:58:00 - [246] /signed. He appears to be a moron constantly pumping features people don't care about (eve-voice) and poohpoohing features people do want (stand-alone eve-voice). We won't even get into the carrier disaster...
Miamoto Mataky Gallente Boundless Comlexion	Posted - 2007.12.24 17:19:00 - [247] this: Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Remember, the fast ship zoomed way out of range no longer poses a threat.... so what's the problem? It comes in close, it dies and this: Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Yohanes Flame I like this game BECAUSE all the ships even inside a class are different not the same. I like that if you spend the time and money to make a great ship it does that, it does great. Nerfing something simply to make it more like something else or using the reasoning that it should be because a different ship isn't as good is not a reason. The huge differences between ships and the kaleidescope of different setups that can be effective is what makes this game different, and is why players like it. The steady devolution of classes into interchangeable between races is a slippery slope for the basic game mechanic that is eve. Superbly put, this. Got to say.... .... I agree. /signed twice was just listenning to that live dev blog.. can't describe the feeling i had.. it's like they don't know what they are talking about, the lead designer and ZP... they don't know what they are talking about, why are thay talking what they are talking and what actually needs to be donne and why it needs to be done.. their arguments are superficial and in most cases flawed.. Like a 11 year old trying to pass a scool test but he didn't open his books.. ----------- do I need to have a sig?
Serric Caldari Lords of Chaos Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.24 17:33:00 - [248] Originally by: Soulita Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: Yohanes Flame I like this game BECAUSE all the ships even inside a class are different not the same. I like that if you spend the time and money to make a great ship it does that, it does great. Nerfing something simply to make it more like something else or using the reasoning that it should be because a different ship isn't as good is not a reason. The huge differences between ships and the kaleidescope of different setups that can be effective is what makes this game different, and is why players like it. The steady devolution of classes into interchangeable between races is a slippery slope for the basic game mechanic that is eve. Superbly put, this. Got to say.... .... I agree. /signed
R0ot Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.24 17:40:00 - [249] Quote: Zulupark - I'll just keep on going in here. I'm going to actually grab follow-up question "Isn't the intended role of interdictor to zoom about and drop bubbles". Yes the intended role is to drop bubbles, but it's not maybe in the intended role that they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. Sigh, zulupark please for the love of all interdictor pilots that spent the time training for this ship and that pay somewhat 30-40 mil per interdictor (rigs and fittings included), please please please play with the actual ship in a fight larger than 10 people before you think a ship should be changed, and now with the stacking nerf (possible) coming this will screw over the interdictor class even more so. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Great Guardian Minmatar Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2007.12.24 17:51:00 - [250] Edited by: Great Guardian on 24/12/2007 17:51:18 Could any one offer a new job or different position in CCP to that guy? Cheers, GG " I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Hah! Attack ships on fire, off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams, glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments.... will
Mjnari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.12.24 17:56:00 - [251] Originally by: Furos I realize that nano fittings are becoming the standard in eve which probably wasn't CCPs goal. But simply nerfing speed is not the answer here. Instead of nerfing speed I think a better solution is to add more counters to speed. Maybe a new mod for the heavy dictor that webs instead of scrams? Or maybe bombs that web. This. MOAR variation, not less. ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.12.24 18:24:00 - [252] Originally by: Furos Edited by: Furos on 24/12/2007 15:39:03 Edited by: Furos on 24/12/2007 15:37:17 I realize that nano fittings are becoming the standard in eve which probably wasn't CCPs goal. But simply nerfing speed is not the answer here. Instead of nerfing speed I think a better solution is to add more counters to speed. Maybe a new mod for the heavy dictor that webs instead of scrams? Or maybe bombs that web. People spend billions of isk and lots of time to specialize in speed, and they should be able to do this. But players should also be able to spend equivalent time / isk and specialize in countering speed. Ships like the rapier are a good start, but are limited in their ability to counter speed. Forcing people to play a certain way is not the answer, but allowing people to counter one specialization with another would certainly make sence to me. This. A series of tactics and counters which specific ships excel at, and which other ships can imitate but not duplicate. This ship goes fast, this ship kills fast ships. This other ship uses a metric f*ton of modules to emulate fast ship, but it's not even going to come close. This ship cares not that you go fast, as it's going to ewar the hell out of you simply because you exist near it, and this other ship will ignore that ewar and eat said ship for breakfast. Etc, etc. Perhaps this is what CCP is already shooting for. If so, it's not evident from their recent design decisions. It seems they're pushing ships toward homogeny and making modules less and less effective. The end result is specialty ships that don't actually do anything unless you throw billions at them and you're lucky enough to be at the high end of the nerf cycle, and a bevy of generic ships that don't really have much of a strength at all. This works to cement the superiority of the blob, as the n+1 generic ships prevail over the n generic ships due to sheer numbers. By creating a situation where a significantly numerically inferior number of ships pop in on a hostile fleet, and the response is, "Oh s, they've got an X!" from the defenders, you break that cycle and give smart fleets the power to destroy large fleets. Yes, speed is out of control. Yes, speed mods need tinkered with. No, dictors are not* the problem, nor do they need to be pulled up short.
Surreptitious Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 18:30:00 - [253] Zulu sucks and should not have that job. Merry Xmas Zulu, I hope you get the flu. Syrup
Xoduse Gallente Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.24 18:35:00 - [254] Originally by: Bruce Boyako Posting in a failure thread in which the OP has ignored the devs reasoning for the nerf, seen the words 'speed nerf' and failposted. Did you EVEN READ the OP? Have you even flown a dictor? They already nerfed dictors 25%, and the guy (zulu) wants nerf dictors further and put a stacking nerf on modules that already stack. Get out troll. --------------------------------- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels -Valorem ([email protected])
Chronos VIII Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.12.24 18:35:00 - [255] Originally by: Surreptitious Zulu sucks and should not have that job. Merry Xmas Zulu, I hope you get the flu. Syrup And you should be banned, because we are talking about a game here ffs
Gramobolanda	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:02:00 - [256] Edited by: Gramobolanda on 24/12/2007 20:04:34 /sarcasm Thanks Zulupark for adapting my Sabre to the Speed of the Geastationari ISS Space Station so now i can dock on this safely without have to worry about crashing into it because i am to fast /sarcasm off Realy what is this Nerf good for? A Standard fittet Sabre without HG Snakes (wich not every Sabre Pilot is able and willing to Buy) and with no Super Expensive Polycarbon Engine Housings now is slower then a Stabber, but a Stabber providing me more Tank and more Firepower and coast about 6-8 mil is easy replaceable bcause everyone can buy a BPO of Stabber. Sabre still are about 25-35mil of ISK for a one Bubble Drop (did not calculate the costs for a MWD and Bubblelauncher etc). So u made this ship useless THANKS A LOT I LOVE YOU FOR THIS ! REALY..... If u whant a one use Bubble Ship make it a T1 Frig worth 200k ISK with one Hi Slot for the Bubble and everythink is ok, but a Ship like Sabre for that Price with no Tank and now no Speed (dont think about poor Amarrs they are now even more on the shaft with the dictors but they deserve it bcause they are Amarr) there is no more use in my arsenal of death. Now would you just go out in your new formed Dictor and try to play it for 2 months on TQ and say u have a chance, if u prove me u done halfway good in it i will kiss your feets and pray for forgivness, if u find out u get killed in allmost every single bubble you drop in a half decent Fleetfight then go back to your desk and think about the nerf. I give you also a little clue whats wrong with your fix, its not the ship... it is Pirate Implant¦s + Rigs + Hardwirings + Gangboni + Commandship links..... Think about it....... also Funny there is a 9 Pages long thread of your Customers that are most of them very unhappy with your change you made, and while CCP often responses to a "Help, there is Fly**** on my Monitor" Problemthread, this one gets completly ignored. Funny Way to communicate to the customers......
Audio Bully	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:09:00 - [257] Originally by: Chronos VIII Originally by: Surreptitious Zulu sucks and should not have that job. Merry Xmas Zulu, I hope you get the flu. Syrup And you should be banned, because we are talking about a game here ffs QFT __________________________________________________ Great being Amarr, Minmatar, and Caldari isn't it?
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:17:00 - [258] Originally by: Theo Samaritan Adapt or die. Thats all I can say. Well prepare to adapt then
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:18:00 - [259] /Signed I really dont think Zulupark knows what he's doing. Bring back TomB? - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:22:00 - [260] I can agree that Sabre is the last nano ship that deserves nerfing. And the ship fundamentally is ok; it's speed enhancers that are overpowered, snakes, poly's, harwirings and other stuff that was mentioned 2-3 posts above.
DARTHxFREE Aliastra	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:26:00 - [261] Zulupark does play EvE I saw him on test server, looked in his wreak to find 'Arbalest' torpedoo launchers /join Cheeze & Whine Club
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:26:00 - [262] Edited by: Dr Slaughter on 24/12/2007 20:27:08 /signed but do individual devs, acting alone, have the authority to change game mechanics? Do the changes require a 'change request'? Do the 'change requests' get reviewed before coding starts by a group of senior GAME DESIGNERS (<> programmers btw)? If it's a: change request/senior game designer review/approval/start coding type process surely we don't have anything to fear from comments like Zuluparks... he isn't on the review board is he? The game is managed like this... right? They do unit testing too don't they? Oh.. wait... CCP this is not the nerf you are looking for...
ID ReDead Caldari Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:27:00 - [263] /signed
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:47:00 - [264] So, this thread has jumped the rails, and is now on the nano/speed ship tracks instead of the interdictor speed issue tracks. Oh well.
Gramobolanda	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:53:00 - [265] dont think you can seperate Dictors nerf from Nano problem. If u read Zulus commentars he thinking that dictors are to fast. So when u say particular ship is to fast, u dont should look only at the ship but also at the factors that make it that fast......
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.12.24 20:53:00 - [266] /signed Play the game before playing with modules and ships. Rifters!
SiJira	Posted - 2007.12.24 21:16:00 - [267] next on the nerf train cruisers Trashed sig, Shark was here
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 21:17:00 - [268] /not signed Quote: null
L70Rogue	Posted - 2007.12.24 21:17:00 - [269] Originally by: Zana Kito Think back at the time when wcs were nerfed.. why? Same issue now. this
Igetshotalot THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.24 21:37:00 - [270] Originally by: L70Rogue Originally by: Zana Kito Think back at the time when wcs were nerfed.. why? Same issue now. this that
Susitna Caldari	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:22:00 - [271] Edited by: Susitna on 24/12/2007 23:23:36 /Signed. The heavy dictor has really taken over the gate or station camp role from the destroyer dictor. The role to bubble ships out in space was nerfed to a suicide mission. What a game concept. Eliminate half the role for a ship and make the other half about as appealing as going to the dentist. The dictor was fine. It was a risk to zoom in and drop the bubble. But at least you had a chance to survive the attempt. Suicide missions = NOT FUN. This dev needs to live in a flycatcher for the next six months before he ever gets to change anything ever again IMHO. I will concur the sabre was a bit too fast with rigs and implants. But the problem was not with the ship it was with rigs and implants and many other ships are going silly speeds.
Synapse Archae Amarr Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.12.24 23:59:00 - [272] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Otto Matic All the cries for nano nerfs are simply the result of: * CCP boosting Caldari too much * as a result, everyone flying Caldari * all the whiney kids now crying "omg I can't hit him with my missiles" What can you do when 50+% of the user base flies Caldari now? No wonder we are seeing whole 250 man fleets with Caracals and Drakes these days (hi Insurgency & Russian friends). So, it's only Caldari that can't kill them Although the prospect of a missile, not being able to catch the ship us pretty hilarious by itself, the problem is not only with Caldari. It's also with Amarr, who can't track those ships. Race that has best anti-speed tools are Minmatar. Great news for those who spent ages to specialize in other races. Minmatar Cruiser is easily taken to lvl 5, yes, as well as other Minmatar specializations. Just look at what is going on in 0.0 besides huge blobfests. Look at Outbreak gangs, Triumvirate gangs. They are nano-gangs. Why? Those guys can chose what to fly, yet most of their gangs are nano. There should be a reason for that. Where's the diversity you fight for? Many ships are not even seriously used because of the current nano-trend. They are not good to blob, and they are not good to roam, because they can't be nano'ed. Nerfing this trend will only increase diversity, because nano will not be an automatic PvPer's choice. You really dont know what youre talking about honestly. Vagas are the solo nano ship of choice but in gangs they flat out suck because of their short range. Vagas die quickly in nano gangs for the same reason that sabres do, they have to fight inside of 20km. As for Amarr tracking youre again completely wrong. Amarr battleships are the best anti-nano choice as they have great tracking. Most other turret battleships die after one or two TDs, if you have a geddon or apoc or abbadon against you, you need 3 of they will start sniping your nanos, which have no tank at all. Lastly, just because a ship isnt good to roam, doesnt mean its useless. When you start roaming with battleships and drakes and such, PVP diversity is over. Those ships are not made to be fast and agile. When you see them start to roam, you know agility no longer has any worth as a tactic, and diverse PVP is dead. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
Aladdin Insane Hampshire Massive DIstributed	Posted - 2007.12.25 00:36:00 - [273] Edited by: Aladdin Insane on 25/12/2007 00:38:03 Originally by: Synapse Archae When you start roaming with battleships and drakes and such, PVP diversity is over. Thank you. Where is the t1 cruisers? Assault frigs? Do logistics have a role in PvP? Destroyers? Hell, what about a t1 frig??? When is the last time someone saw an arbitrator, celestis, bellicose in a gang? They have a use, useful bonuses (ok, maybe not a bellicose, but does the torp change make this ship a little more useful?) i'm sick of seeing the same HAC, recon, dictor gangs. its even worse when Drakes start roaming, even a bloody Ferox would be more interesting. _____________________ Eve is not a sandbox Sandboxes always have kitty poo in them
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.12.25 01:17:00 - [274] Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/12/2007 01:23:10 [e Originally by: Aladdin Insane Edited by: Aladdin Insane on 25/12/2007 00:38:03 Originally by: Synapse Archae When you start roaming with battleships and drakes and such, PVP diversity is over. Thank you. Where is the t1 cruisers? Assault frigs? Do logistics have a role in PvP? Destroyers? Hell, what about a t1 frig??? When is the last time someone saw an arbitrator, celestis, bellicose in a gang? They have a use, useful bonuses (ok, maybe not a bellicose, but does the torp change make this ship a little more useful?) i'm sick of seeing the same HAC, recon, dictor gangs. its even worse when Drakes start roaming, even a bloody Ferox would be more interesting. gtfo out of 0.0 then? I see your ships you never see all the time, i fly with them and in them. YOU are not indicative of the entire geography of eve and neither is your perspective. Give me detailed statistics and maybe I and others will listen. If you wanna see less t2 ships then you need more isk sinks for players. This is actually unsustainable as the sp levels in eve slowly reach a point where only the generation of isk is the governing factor in what one can field. SO FAR only whines have been presented as evidence, wheres the stats? You expect people to stay in t1 cruisers, destroyers etc why lol? Everyone wants to progress. For example: Lets say I can fly a recon and i wanna do some pvp, but wait, you know what ** that ill take the bellicose(nothing wrong with this ship btw) out instead of the rapier today, what planet are you from? Just because you fly around with high sp characters picking fights with high sp characters in 0.0 (i presume that where you are as you said dictors), does not mean no one flies the t1 variants, get out of your own elitist arse. You have a choice you have isk in the wallet and t2 skills. Fly t1? Fly t2? argue that? Originally by:** Death Kill Go travel or live in the rainforest if neccesary, just dont turn to religion as its a cul de sac.
CHAOS100 Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.12.25 02:00:00 - [275] /signed --------------
Kiroven Kunnin Minmatar Caput Co.	Posted - 2007.12.25 02:12:00 - [276] wow thread-nought, i am still to young to contribute something this big, but...here is my 1m^3 of trit Kiroven Kunnin
SumDum AirHawk Alliance Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.25 02:35:00 - [277] I <3 my new post-trinity flycatcher, it really makes an excellent salvage/loot ship. If they really were interested in keeping people flying them, they should have at least thrown a range bonus for the tractors and salvagers. No worries though, I'll just spend months of training towards another ship that can be nerfed once the talentless whino's start spamming threadnaughts about the next 'overpowered' ship. Happy Festivus!
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.25 03:01:00 - [278] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Hannobaal No, you are wrong. There are no stacking penaties for any bonuses in this game except for those that come from modules and rigs. No bonuses from implants, skills, ships, gangs or anything like that get stacking penalties, ever. I'm sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized. Most notably resistances, and ewar strength. I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that you put resistances in there (and the way many people mistake the way resistances are normally applied for stacking penalties) makes me suspect that you don't even know what stacking penalties are and how they work.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2007.12.25 04:18:00 - [279] i mentioned somewhere a while back when zulupark posted his idea for nerfing carriers fighter ability (and moms) that going from QA to design is a bad idea. with that in mind, I propose a nerf to mining lasers. People are able to mine too much too fast, so we you to still be able to control some mining lasers, but have to assign the others. However, the catch to this is, we want you to do it with 500 other plays on grid, with 1 fps, and 1 minute module lag, and menu lag. Because we want to see how much you can take before you explode in frustration. Go Hard, or go Home.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.25 07:05:00 - [280] Originally by: Rells Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:50 Edited by: Rells on 23/12/2007 10:43:36 From a devchat log forwarded to me by a corp mate. Quote: Mindstar - But on to the question that was destined for Zulupark before he strangely disappeared from audio was the question about speed. Is it working as intended? Are ships too fast and what's up with the speed nerfof interdictors? Zulupark - There are many things up with speed. Personally and what were kinda discussing is stacking of speed mods. It's something we got to look into probably. Regarding interdictors themselves they were going really fast with proper fittings and it's ship that can bubble up huge amounts of space and it shouldn't be able to zoom in and out. Drop bubble, leave whole fleets into bubble and leave afterwards. Mindstar - Alright bubble up, indeed. On the question of the some of the other changes that are coming in the patch. Torpedoes saw massive change, they have been reduced in range and increased in damage. Is there anything happening with torpedoes? What exactly was the reasoning in particular behind the change? Zulupark - I'll just keep on going in here. I'm going to actually grab follow-up question "Isn't the intended role of interdictor to zoom about and drop bubbles". Yes the intended role is to drop bubbles, but it's not maybe in the intended role that they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. That's just way too much. This is ... just .... OMG unbelievable. You read this and think "does this guy bloody play the game?" Zulupark wants to nerf interdictors because they zoom in and drop bubbles? That is what they are suppsed to do. What else are they going to do, drop the bubble and tank? I lost an interdictor once because I sneezed too hard in my pod once. They have the tank of a wet kleenex. Furthermore, his quote... Quote: Zulupark - ...snip... they're so fast, that even with a specialized webbing ship, in the time it takes you to get a lock and activate your webifiers, even if the ship is at far end of your webbing range, that it could basically float at immense speed out of your webbing range again. This is just patently false. There are any number of ways of catching an interdictor and if the GM will log on in his interdictor I will have my corp demonstrate a few for him. This last weekend I caught a sabre with a bunch of frigs and we have killed dozens of them in numerous methods. Im sorry for being brutal but its just sad seeing posts like this from someone working on this game. Sad and scary that they might be listened to. If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. I would highly suggest you send this guy to play the game for a few months and think about tactics and then try to come back and suggest things that actually need being done such as repairing the corp interface, repairing amarr and other hot issues. Interdictors were very overpowered. They're inline now. Im just concerend that everything else is going to be 'fixed'. ----------------- Friends Forever
Estephania Independent Political Analysts	Posted - 2007.12.25 08:09:00 - [281] Originally by: Aladdin Insane Edited by: Aladdin Insane on 25/12/2007 00:38:03 Originally by: Synapse Archae When you start roaming with battleships and drakes and such, PVP diversity is over. Thank you. Where is the t1 cruisers? Assault frigs? Do logistics have a role in PvP? Destroyers? Hell, what about a t1 frig??? When is the last time someone saw an arbitrator, celestis, bellicose in a gang? They have a use, useful bonuses (ok, maybe not a bellicose, but does the torp change make this ship a little more useful?) i'm sick of seeing the same HAC, recon, dictor gangs. its even worse when Drakes start roaming, even a bloody Ferox would be more interesting. You make a very good point here. Every time I engage I see the swarms of T2 around me. The game is becoming not about skill, but about ISK. Whoever has more billions wins. Some ships are never found. T1 cruisers are rarely seen on a battlefield, T1 frigs are a laughstock it's all 100mill+ setups; I'm quite tired of the situation when if you don't have 500mill in the wallet, you'll be hard pressed to fit and lose anything. I personally was in a predominantly command ship gang, what is this coming to? Eve is going somewhere and it's not a good place at all. The immense rift between the rich and poor pilots in Eve is widening even more each time CCP introduces another 500 mill new toy.
Mr GoodK4t	Posted - 2007.12.25 11:58:00 - [282] Ok, didn't read whole thread so not sure this point was made. Some of you are saying just nerf bat the fast ships like the Vaga and the Ishtar?? One thing you have to realize is these speed ships have an immense amount of isk put into it, its not just modules, its implants, rigs, faction modules, and long trained skills. In alot of cases these are worth way more than your t2 fitted battleships gentle men. And they perform just well enough. But some you guys have me believing you rather see tank and gank battleship? how about some variability in PvP? Please, give me a break There is a trade off between tank/gankability to agility. If you want slow heavy ships fine, you got to watch where you fly it, don't expect to land your tank any where and survive with it.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.12.25 12:39:00 - [283] heheeheheheehehehehhehehheheehehehheh points at op and Laugh my ass off heheeheehhehehe your sooo funny :P what zulu say's is absolute correct, but well i can see that if your not allowed to act like children on the forum then it most be because it is to protect him from saying what is up right now... mmhmmm sarcasm. well unless he says "we will make you a superpwnage mobile and balance will not be there. then i suspect that you will whine your ass of hehe.. i think this patch and what he have been commenting on in that devblog is the most balancing things ccp have done for a very very long time, nice job guys... (but still they need to do a lot, but everything to its time) ----------------- fun little game: http://world7.monstersgame.co.uk/?ac=vid&vid=113097917
Ozstar Naughty 40 Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.25 12:58:00 - [284] Christ, not again.
Scott Ryder Infestation. The Cosa Nostra	Posted - 2007.12.26 03:17:00 - [285] /Signed I honestly believe this thread needed a bump.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 03:35:00 - [286] Edited by: Goumindong on 26/12/2007 03:35:05 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Hannobaal No, you are wrong. There are no stacking penaties for any bonuses in this game except for those that come from modules and rigs. No bonuses from implants, skills, ships, gangs or anything like that get stacking penalties, ever. I'm sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized. Most notably resistances, and ewar strength. I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that you put resistances in there (and the way many people mistake the way resistances are normally applied for stacking penalties) makes me suspect that you don't even know what stacking penalties are and how they work. Good lord, go ask anyone who flys armor or shield command mods, they are stacking penalized. Aparently you wont take the word of a mindlinked skirmish pilot
Evenfall Phoenix The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.26 06:16:00 - [287] I agree, ZP is definitely not doing his job right. The dictor nerf was one of the most ******** things that could have been done to "fix speed." ZP, to "fix speed" here's a big hint... Snakes. They are what is controlling speed, not nano's, not overdrives, and most certainly not dictors base speed. Play the game... seriously.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:00:00 - [288] Originally by: Evenfall Phoenix I agree, ZP is definitely not doing his job right. The dictor nerf was one of the most ******** things that could have been done to "fix speed." ZP, to "fix speed" here's a big hint... Snakes. They are what is controlling speed, not nano's, not overdrives, and most certainly not dictors base speed. Play the game... seriously. Signed! Pre dictor nerf I flew only sabres for about 1 year they were fast moving bullet magnets which had a chance to escape now they are a joke I cant even outrun a vagabond (which is 1 ship class bigger!) so thats it bye bye 60 mill isk flying coffin and hello Broadswrord. Honestly ZP please think twice before you change something
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:12:00 - [289] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 26/12/2007 03:35:05 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Hannobaal No, you are wrong. There are no stacking penaties for any bonuses in this game except for those that come from modules and rigs. No bonuses from implants, skills, ships, gangs or anything like that get stacking penalties, ever. I'm sorry, you're just flat out wrong. Gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized. Most notably resistances, and ewar strength. I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that you put resistances in there (and the way many people mistake the way resistances are normally applied for stacking penalties) makes me suspect that you don't even know what stacking penalties are and how they work. Good lord, go ask anyone who flys armor or shield command mods, they are stacking penalized. Aparently you wont take the word of a mindlinked skirmish pilot Hint: Say we have 80% resists on one damage type, and we get a bonus of 10% giving us resists of 82% (rather than 90%). That's not stacking penalties. It's the normal way resistance bonuses are applied (without stacking penalties).
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:47:00 - [290] Originally by: Evenfall Phoenix I agree, ZP is definitely not doing his job right. The dictor nerf was one of the most ******** things that could have been done to "fix speed." ZP, to "fix speed" here's a big hint... Snakes. They are what is controlling speed, not nano's, not overdrives, and most certainly not dictors base speed. Play the game... seriously. The problem is that the devs are totally out of touch with the game. They are hitting all of these "hot issues" that arent even hot. The pre-nerf Sabre is what all the other interdictors should have been. Now they have nerfed them all but guess what, the Sabre is still CLEARLY superior to the others. If they wish to nerf super speed ships then snakes could be looked at. However, the fact is that there are MUCH MUCM more pressing issues in the game. There are a Dozen ships who'se bonuses make no bloody sense at all (Gun/missile bonuses on covops and tanking bonuses on transports???). There are the problems that the Amarr ships face (having to fit solid cap gear just to fire their own guns for a start). There are problems with the corp interface, the idiocy around the specs of jump freighters, the role refinement of heavy interdictors, the relative poverty of a 80% of 0.0 space, the damaged role of supercapitals, and many more. This is not to mention all the buggs, memory leaks, graphics siezures of CPU time and so on. Zulupark is so far off the pressing issues in Eve and so badly misinformed about PvP in eve that he REALLY needs to play in a 0.0 organization about 3 months or more to get back in touch. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Sh'irna	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:55:00 - [291] Originally by: Chronos VIII Originally by: Surreptitious Zulu sucks and should not have that job. Merry Xmas Zulu, I hope you get the flu. Syrup And you should be banned, because we are talking about a game here ffs Banned no, but I do agree that was a stupid thing to say. I want him to learn how things work in the game and make more studied suggestions. I have nothing but good wishes for a merry Christmas and good health for the person himself.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.12.26 07:56:00 - [292] Bah .. that was one of my scan alts above ... bloody forums. Originally by: Chronos VIII Originally by: Surreptitious Zulu sucks and should not have that job. Merry Xmas Zulu, I hope you get the flu. Syrup And you should be banned, because we are talking about a game here ffs Banned no, but I do agree that was a stupid thing to say. I want him to learn how things work in the game and make more studied suggestions. I have nothing but good wishes for a merry Christmas and good health for the person himself. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Drizit Amarr Lonely out here Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 08:42:00 - [293] Too true. I begin to think that all these nerfs that have happened over the past two years have been a result of hear-say and listening to whiners. I sincerely doubt that anyone who actively plays the game would conclude that many of these nerfs were necessary at all. A lot of these uber mods/ships can and have been countered pre-nerf but so many whiners have neither the ability nor the brains to figure out how and CCP listened to them instead of those who knew better. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to grab a few of those who say they can deal with an "uber" mod or ship as it is now and let them demonstrate it on the test server. If they can counter it, the proposed nerf is cancelled. Eve is supposed to be hard, nerfing just degrades the game into easy mode. --
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:21:00 - [294] Edited by: Hannobaal on 26/12/2007 09:21:36 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 26/12/2007 08:39:29 Originally by: Hannobaal Hint: Say we have 80% resists on one damage type, and we get a bonus of 10% giving us resists of 82% (rather than 90%). That's not stacking penalties. It's the normal way resistance bonuses are applied (without stacking penalties). Hint: say you have a max skilled damnation in gang producing his gang bonus of 25.875%. Now, assume that you have max skills and a tank consisting of 2 eanms IIs, and a damage control II on an amarran ship O.K. now what are you resists? Are they ([Base -1] x .75 x 7825 x .85 x .74125) +1 ? [85.2/70.4/72.26/75.96] Or are they ([Base-1] x .74125 x .7825 x 8575 x .85) +1 ? [83.1/66.2/68.3/73.5] Ill give you a hint, its the second one. Ill also just plain tell you why, its because gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized for any attribute that has a stacking penality associated with it, just like any other effect in the game is. Ok, after doublechecking you do seem to be right about bonuses from gang modules on command ships (I've never had to deal with them before, and I just assumed since they aren't modules on your ship they get treated like all other bonuses). However, bonuses from skills, ships and implants most definitely do not get stacking penalties, and that I am 100% sure of. And the topic at hand here was snake implants.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 09:51:00 - [295] Originally by: Hannobaal Ok, after doublechecking you do seem to be right about bonuses from gang modules on command ships (I've never had to deal with them before, and I just assumed since they aren't modules on your ship they get treated like all other bonuses). However, bonuses from skills, ships and implants most definitely do not get stacking penalties, and that I am 100% sure of. And the topic at hand here was snake implants. The topic at hand was all of the bonuses to speed which are unaffected by stacking penalties. And really that is the problem. That you can keep adding things and adding things and adding things with little or no penalty. Mwd, od, od, nano? No big deal. mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly? Not to bad, starting to get a bit extreme though Mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly, 5% rogue set? Well that is really fast! Mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly, 5% rogue, snakes? Holy lord that is ridiculous Mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly, 5% rogue, snakes, drugs? Sweet jesus that is ridiculous mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly, 5% rogue, snakes, drugs, Gang mods? Alright, now you go faster than most frigates with an MWD when you are 90% webbed. This is too much mwd, od, od, od, poly, poly, 5% rogue, snakes, drugs, gang mods, overloaded? Holy lord in heaven we are impulsing at 1/4th the speed of light! The trick is to get polycarbons a bit more inline[10%/15% would be more reasonable and stll very strong]. And then find a way to make snakes, gang mods, and/or drugs to be heavily stacking penalized. I mean, gang mods and snakes should make you fast, but the benefit of going really fast ought to be to free up slots to use elsewhere. So a snaked vaga goes 7km/s and a poly vaga goes 6km/s, but the snaked vaga gets an extra low slot and 2 falloff rigs. Ditto for gang mods. The problem of course, is that the big single bonuses need a heavier than normal stacking penalty which will interfere with the smaller bonuses. And as well, the two attributes affecting speed is a big deal.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:02:00 - [296] Originally by: Goumindong The problem of course, is that the big single bonuses need a heavier than normal stacking penalty which will interfere with the smaller bonuses. And as well, the two attributes affecting speed is a big deal. Actually the absolute biggest speed bonus by far, no competition, just overshadows everything else, comes from the mwd. And it doesn't get any stacking penalties at the moment.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:08:00 - [297] Nano whiners make me laugh. Nerfing speed is only a step backwards for solo and small gang PvP. For gangs larger than say 10, purely nano ships are less useful than a good balance of long range damage, ewar, and tackling. The Snigg roaming gang composition has been very similar since before the istab boost and nerf, since before rigs, and it will remain so even if CCP nerf speed again. The ships that we like best for our dreaded PL "nano gangs" are astartes, muninns, zealots, cerbs, falcon/rooks, rapier/huginns, scimitars, and tempests. Our "nano gangs" don't consist of the "overpowered" nano vagabonds and ishtars, in fact these ships are discouraged because they need to get too close to the enemy and will die. CCP will nerf speed, the smart people will adapt and continue to kill as usual, the whiners will whine about whatever new tactics are developed. The cycle of whine/nerf continues on with the only victims being gameplay variety and solo/small gang warfare. -
mamolian Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.26 10:39:00 - [298] Edited by: mamolian on 26/12/2007 10:40:50 CCP make it a rule ffs.. that you won't even look at a thread in General Discussion unless it requires moderation -----------
Corstaad Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.12.26 11:04:00 - [299] What EvE doesn't understand is there drawing alot of people that like the gang type warfare. These are players that understand how powerful a few can be against a "blob" of unthinking people. With Fleet warfare we understand you give up alot of yourself for the Greater good. This Greater good works for most fleet ops but shouldn't make or state what EvE's PvP should be like. If they want want to make it BS's at Gate online go ahead but really your going to make this game plain a simple lame.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 11:19:00 - [300] Originally by: Corstaad What EvE doesn't understand is there drawing alot of people that like the gang type warfare. These are players that understand how powerful a few can be against a "blob" of unthinking people. With Fleet warfare we understand you give up alot of yourself for the Greater good. This Greater good works for most fleet ops but shouldn't make or state what EvE's PvP should be like. If they want want to make it BS's at Gate online go ahead but really your going to make this game plain a simple lame. What I find lame is that a entire race, in this case Caldari, arent even able to do damage to the nano crap flying around. Big majority of the Missiles boats just dont hurt the nano fits. Is this correct ???? And no I dont even fly caldari ships... The fact is that velocity modules are completly unbalanced and are in a certain way responsibles for Blobs. A Gang not fitted with nanos will have to devote 2/3 ships to catch a single nano ship, because they can always try to run away. The problem with nano ships is not the damage or the tank they dont have, the problem is their velocity him self... when ships are faster then missiles, when you see missiles doing 0 damage to a ship because the game mechanics werent studied to face this kind of fits, When missiles make 0 damage because they are faster then a explosion velocity ... something is very wrong... The fact that a speed nerf might be unconfortable to some opilots dont make the speed nerf less necessary.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.26 17:14:00 - [301] /signed Advice to ZuluPark: 1> Change your name. You've forever tainted the name ZuluPark with your initial idiocy. It cannot be salvaged. 2> Play the game for awhile, flying the ships you intend to nerf. Its painfully obvious that you don't know the practical reality, only the spreadsheet data. 3> Quit working for CCP. Then stay away from this game that I love. Everything you've suggested is just ... wrong.
Hul'ka Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.26 17:28:00 - [302] Have you ever flown a nano fited ship? If you go too fast you won't hit your target.. if you go to slow you won't be able to tank... Soooooo.. enlighten me... What is the solution? Just nerf them and allow your Abbadon to take that vaga in one shot? You’d like that, wouldn’t you.. And what’s wrong to have few ships to catch a specific ship? Or have a specific ship in your gang that helps catching them? Or to have the some kind of fast ship in your gang? Once 4 of us ware catching a vagabond on a gate for 20 minutes. He was playing with us and after 20 minutes he made a mistake. One mistake! In a second he was webbed, dual webbed, triple webbed and quickly found himself in a station. Furthermore, it’s easy to say something is overpowered when you buy every single module and implant for 100 isk.. Try grinding for those modules a few months and then lose it all because of one mistake you made… Get real guys… --------- I want to phew phew
Dark 0men Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:28:00 - [303] Originally by: Miamoto Mataky Like a 11 year old trying to pass a scool test but he didn't open his books.. I didn't listen to the devblog, but that's the impression I got from some fanfest videos. It's like they are just tolerating this boring EVE crap until they can go do something more fun (working on that vampire MMORPG or serious, hardcore, I-am-a-desperate-alcoholic drinking?). Could someone in Iceland maybe go to a job interview with them and ninja out some information, then post it?
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.12.26 18:59:00 - [304] Edited by: J Valkor on 26/12/2007 19:00:11 My god a lot of you are full of **. "I know more about this game then the people who made it" -or- "Waah, CCP is not listening to the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Waah, CCP is listening the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Well, yes, if I put 5 billion into a ship OF COURSE I should be invulnerable" -or- "Well, yes, I am invulnerable unless that one super specialized ship shows up" -or- "Why is CCP working on these useless features? I know I have been told a billion times that separate teams work on different aspects on the game, but my mind does not understand marginal return." I've played this game since 2006 and every *** goddamned change in this game has had some if not all of the above complaints launched at it. A week after the nerf most people just agree it was bull and move on with their lives. Remember nano-BS? Anybody here want to argue they were perfectly balanced? That it was fine for BS to go that fast? How about ECM before it was nerfed? Was it okay that every *** ship in the game would fit ECM in its spare mids? Is every ***** ship in the game fitting ECM diverse enough for you?
Yohanes Flame Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:43:00 - [305] I think the only thing wrong with the previous statement is that CCP has been nerfing entire concepts not fixing the overpowered thing they set out to. Example: ECM they nerfed ECM so bad that even ECM ships were almost nonexistent for a while there. It is the scale and form of the nerfs of recent that is disturbing not so much the existence of the nerf itself. I do not believe that any sane pilot does not think that there are nerfs to be had but when CCP goes out and nerfs an entire facet of a game, such as damps this patch. To the point where even the ships that should be extremely effective with them are nerfed it is ill informed nerf. What is secondly as disturbing is that the recent damp nerf is identical in its logic as the terrible ECM nerf that just now A LONG TIME LATER got repaired. It took months for blackbirds and falcons to get their primary skill back. How long will take for the damp boats of which is there mission to get theirs back this time. The repeating of past admitted mistakes is the most troublesome part of the recent nerfs. It is not the existence of the dictor nerf but how and why it was justified. Using the prescribed CCP mission of the interdictor as the reason it should be nerfed is .... i do not know. I do not know how you could make the statement that the reason you are nerfing the interdictor is because it "flies around and bubbles stuff and gets out" when I read the description on that ship that is exactly what I planned to do with it when I started training for. So..... ____________________________ One Thead to rule them all - Boot.ini pre-patch thread
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.26 20:52:00 - [306] Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 26/12/2007 19:00:11 My god a lot of you are full of **. "I know more about this game then the people who made it" -or- "Waah, CCP is not listening to the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Waah, CCP is listening the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Well, yes, if I put 5 billion into a ship OF COURSE I should be invulnerable" -or- "Well, yes, I am invulnerable unless that one super specialized ship shows up" -or- "Why is CCP working on these useless features? I know I have been told a billion times that separate teams work on different aspects on the game, but my mind does not understand marginal return." I've played this game since 2006 and every *** goddamned change in this game has had some if not all of the above complaints launched at it. A week after the nerf most people just agree it was bull and move on with their lives. Remember nano-BS? Anybody here want to argue they were perfectly balanced? That it was fine for BS to go that fast? How about ECM before it was nerfed? Was it okay that every *** ship in the game would fit ECM in its spare mids? Is every ***** ship in the game fitting ECM diverse enough for you? QFT but sorry mate these people won't listen to us. most people just don't post in this crap. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
SumDum AirHawk Alliance Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.26 23:40:00 - [307] Originally by: J Valkor Edited by: J Valkor on 26/12/2007 19:00:11 My god a lot of you are full of **. "I know more about this game then the people who made it" -or- "Waah, CCP is not listening to the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Waah, CCP is listening the playerbase and just nerfing" -or- "Well, yes, if I put 5 billion into a ship OF COURSE I should be invulnerable" -or- "Well, yes, I am invulnerable unless that one super specialized ship shows up" -or- "Why is CCP working on these useless features? I know I have been told a billion times that separate teams work on different aspects on the game, but my mind does not understand marginal return." I've played this game since 2006 and every *** goddamned change in this game has had some if not all of the above complaints launched at it. A week after the nerf most people just agree it was bull and move on with their lives. Remember nano-BS? Anybody here want to argue they were perfectly balanced? That it was fine for BS to go that fast? How about ECM before it was nerfed? Was it okay that every *** ship in the game would fit ECM in its spare mids? Is every ***** ship in the game fitting ECM diverse enough for you? quoted because your response has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion in this thread and you obviously haven't bothered to read a thing here.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.12.26 23:53:00 - [308] Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 26/12/2007 23:55:23 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong The problem of course, is that the big single bonuses need a heavier than normal stacking penalty which will interfere with the smaller bonuses. And as well, the two attributes affecting speed is a big deal. Actually the absolute biggest speed bonus by far, no competition, just overshadows everything else, comes from the mwd. And it doesn't get any stacking penalties at the moment. Incorrect, when i fit 3 MWDs i only get a small boost from the third one, tbh its almost not worth it. Edit: also what the **** CCP the phobos gets 4 mids and a high slow scrambler while the deimos is stuck with 3? think that pretty much proves the op is correct.
Aladdin Insane Hampshire Massive DIstributed	Posted - 2007.12.27 00:48:00 - [309] Edited by: Aladdin Insane on 27/12/2007 00:48:16 Originally by: Celeste Coeval Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/12/2007 01:35:02 Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/12/2007 01:29:10 Originally by: Aladdin Insane Thank you. Where is the t1 cruisers? Assault frigs? Do logistics have a role in PvP? Destroyers? Hell, what about a t1 frig??? When is the last time someone saw an arbitrator, celestis, bellicose in a gang? They have a use, useful bonuses (ok, maybe not a bellicose, but does the torp change make this ship a little more useful?) i'm sick of seeing the same HAC, recon, dictor gangs. its even worse when Drakes start roaming, even a bloody Ferox would be more interesting. gtfo out of 0.0 then? I see your ships you never see all the time, i fly with them and in them. YOU are not indicative of the entire geography of eve and neither is your perspective. Give me detailed statistics and maybe I and others will listen. If you wanna see less t2 ships then you need more isk sinks for players. This is actually unsustainable as the sp levels in eve slowly reach a point where only the generation of isk is the governing factor in what one can field. i'm in 0.0 But seriously, i don't claim to be indicative of Eve's residence, however my opinion is one of many views that want to see diversity within the game. Detailed statistics no one can give, but this ofc is MY experiance of the game not yours. i don't wanna see less t2 ships, infact as you raise it i want to see more. i want to see more ships being used in PvP. i want more ships with more practical uses. ie: logistics cruisers. Originally by: Celeste Coeval Just because you fly around with high sp characters picking fights with high sp characters in 0.0 (i presume that where you are as you said dictors), does not mean no one flies the t1 variants, get out of your own elitist arse. You have a choice: you have isk in the wallet and t2 skills. Fly t1? Fly t2? argue that? Thanks for the flaming, "elitist arse" did make me chuckle. But yes, my main is a high sp char, my corp contains similar sp chars, but we fight anyone. i have the cash so i can burn through t2 ships WHEN I'M NOOB ENOUGH My point was i want to see little used ships in PvP, i want to see a greater diversity between t1 and t2 ships. Pilots will then start taking more t1 ships to PvP because they will fill useful roles. it would promote greater and diverse tactics. isn't ambulation gonna be enough of an isk sink? However, isn't both our views 2 sides of the coin? Originally by: Celeste Coeval The more you nerf it, the more magic eve loses. _____________________ Eve is not a sandbox Sandboxes always have kitty poo in them
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 00:53:00 - [310] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 26/12/2007 23:56:30 Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 26/12/2007 23:55:23 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong The problem of course, is that the big single bonuses need a heavier than normal stacking penalty which will interfere with the smaller bonuses. And as well, the two attributes affecting speed is a big deal. Actually the absolute biggest speed bonus by far, no competition, just overshadows everything else, comes from the mwd. And it doesn't get any stacking penalties at the moment. Incorrect, when i fit 3 MWDs i only get a small boost from the third one, tbh its almost not worth it. Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized.
Metal Dude Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:01:00 - [311] Edited by: Metal Dude on 27/12/2007 01:24:32 Originally by: Phelan Lore Nano whiners make me laugh. Nerfing speed is only a step backwards for solo and small gang PvP. For gangs larger than say 10, purely nano ships are less useful than a good balance of long range damage, ewar, and tackling. The Snigg roaming gang composition has been very similar since before the istab boost and nerf, since before rigs, and it will remain so even if CCP nerf speed again. The ships that we like best for our dreaded PL "nano gangs" are astartes, muninns, zealots, cerbs, falcon/rooks, rapier/huginns, scimitars, and tempests. Our "nano gangs" don't consist of the "overpowered" nano vagabonds and ishtars, in fact these ships are discouraged because they need to get too close to the enemy and will die. CCP will nerf speed, the smart people will adapt and continue to kill as usual, the whiners will whine about whatever new tactics are developed. The cycle of whine/nerf continues on with the only victims being gameplay variety and solo/small gang warfare. Don't forget to mention the cloak on those nano astartes, muninns, zealots, cerbs, falcon/rooks, rapier/huginns, scimitars, and tempests. Seriously, the game has changed a lot from the earlier days. All the new mods, boosters, implants, gang mods etc made previously balanced ships/mods unbalanced and they need nerfing. CCP always does that. They introduce new features in to the game before realizing the full impact and what the changes are going to do to the balance of affected ships/mods and then they have to nurf it because it becomes too powerful. They always underestimate us users to take advantage of their oversights. Think of the speed nurf the same way as you did about the mobile doomsday nerf. Then youÆll see the logic. The truth will set you free
CHAOS100 Momentum. The Reckoning.	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:03:00 - [312] The simple thing with nerfing is that your options and the openness of the game is severely narrowed down. In 2005 there were tons of options for you to do. However... there was 1 or 2 good ones that everyone used such as the 2000 dps gankageddon or maybe the max damage missile boats, then they were nerfed. Then they move on to the next best 1 or 2 things, such as ECM and WCS, they are nerfed. Then the next... and so on. It is a never ending cycle of nerfs, because people naturally use the most powerful option to do better. Now the nerfs will continue until everyone can tank each other and do equal damage to each other, with no real advantages. To make the process easier I say CCP just delete races altogether, make it 1 race and have 4 ship sizes with equal damage. That way there are no advantages, and everyone will fly everything. (SWG anyone). --------------
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:31:00 - [313] The thing about the FOTM nano-ships that make them so annoying is the fact that they basically perform the role of a tackler, while being able to put out dps and at the same time having a lot of survivability. The biggest problem I think is that they're able to perform all of this all at once. If for instance one of these (ability to get away, tackle, and deal damage) were taken out of the equasion I would have zero issues with 'em. I think it should require more guts to fly a nano-ship, more commitment to a fight. You're in a ship that does good damage and speedtanks, you can zip in and out of danger at your leisure and tackle without a problem. One of these need to go. As for the dictor-nerf. LOL, gtfo. Dictors were fine. I think it's really important that you can either be master of one thing (or good at two) or half-assed at many. Dictors = Relatively slow, paper tank, relatively good dps, commits to a fight, tackle bubble. Give them back speed but make'em script their tackle-ability. Either they can use bubbles, or they can scram. Imbalanced, need speed back! NanoHACs = Relatively fast, good speed tank, good dps, tackle, don't need to commit to a fight, can zip out and in. Imbalanced Interceptrs = Fast, good speed tank, mediocre to average dps, tackle, don't need to commit to a fight, can zip out and in. Balanced! Heavy Interdictors = Knocked the dictors out of the water. Why would anyone want to fly a regular dictor with these things in the game? Hac-resists, tackle just fine, decent dps (for their size) , can bubble, commit to a fight. The latter is the soft-spot of the heavy dictor. It's rather expensive and needs to commit to the fight - yet I'd rather fly a HIC any day of the week than a regular dictor. This is just wrong. Make the dictors as they were pre-patch and things are good. Remove ONE of the nano-hac:s strengths and things are good too. And while you're at it, do something about Assault Frigates and Pilgrims. My suggestion for AF:s? Make them have insane tanks. Like a "command frigate". My suggestion for Pilgrims is to make them either: Have double the nos/neut bonus of the curse OR have one point of stab without penalties. The why is because they a) Suck at tanking b) Do t1 cruiser dps c) Are slow, and always have to commit to a fight - the nerfs of NOS and then damps has made the pilgrim a rather sad spaceship. - Recruitment open again-
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 01:43:00 - [314] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin My suggestion for AF:s? Make them have insane tanks. Like a "command frigate". I would lean towards a little more firepower. But either one of the two would be nice. And if we can have the bonuses on the Jaguar and Wolf switched out to what they logically should be, that would be awesome as well.
Drykor Minmatar Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:07:00 - [315] Originally by: Goumindong Quit your trolling, the Sabre was a freaking super-interceptor, nearly as fast as many of the interceptors with tonnes more hit points, damage, and the ability to drop bubbles. It nearly made interceptors obsolete READ THIS: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=652223&page=2#55 Now if you still want to claim the sabre was nearly as fast as interceptors THAT ARE FIT FOR INTERCEPTING then I have to claim you are a fool.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:18:00 - [316] nearly
Corpse Mage	Posted - 2007.12.27 02:54:00 - [317] Originally by: Goumindong nearly I vote goumindong winner of this thread
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:11:00 - [318] Edited by: Hannobaal on 27/12/2007 03:15:26 Originally by: Goumindong nearly A straight tech 2 speed fit interceptor (no rigs, implants, faction equipment, or gang bonuses) with good skills does at least 6 km/s. Many go a lot faster than that. Sabres did not do those speeds with the same equipment and skills.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:19:00 - [319] Nearly, they go about 5km/s. Which is plenty fast considering they have 2-3 times the hit points and 2-3 times the dps.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:44:00 - [320] Originally by: Goumindong Nearly, they go about 5km/s. Which is plenty fast considering they have 2-3 times the hit points and 2-3 times the dps. Still a good difference. And they're Minmatar. If you're gonna compare, you have to compare to the Claw or at least Stiletto, not the Raptor and Taranis. It's not nearly interceptor speed. More like fast tech 1 frig speed (with less agility and much larger signature). If there's any unfair advantage to the Sabres I would say it's the fact that they do more damage and are easier to fit than other interdictors.
MOTOK0	Posted - 2007.12.27 03:45:00 - [321] Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 04:03:00 - [322] Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.12.27 04:16:00 - [323] Edited by: MITSUK0 on 27/12/2007 04:16:31 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them. At the end of the day the only thing dictors and destroyers have in common is the slot layout and graphical model. In overall balance terms there is a ship class with no role (assault frigs) and yet you are all asking for dictors to be established with two roles? I agree they should be fast but they should have limited firepower, assault frigs/sniper hacs should fill that anti-frig role IMHO :) edit (posted with wrong char before bree ftw tbfh ;))
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 04:34:00 - [324] Originally by: MITSUK0 Edited by: MITSUK0 on 27/12/2007 04:16:31 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them. At the end of the day the only thing dictors and destroyers have in common is the slot layout and graphical model. That's your personal opinion of how things should be, not how they actually are. Quote: In overall balance terms there is a ship class with no role (assault frigs) and yet you are all asking for dictors to be established with two roles? I agree they should be fast but they should have limited firepower, assault frigs/sniper hacs should fill that anti-frig role IMHO :) If we're gonna look at things with that logic, my Claw has at least 3 different, important, roles I can name that it can fill well with the same fit. 1. Scouting 2. Tackling 3. Anti-interceptor
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 04:56:00 - [325] Thank you Rells!!! i listended to that live dev blog and i was literally FURIOUS after i heard everything! those quotes about the interdictors were almost insulting, Zulupark i will bet my 10 billion isk that he has never flown an interdictor more than once in his life! not only that, to the rest of the big boss's in CCP, have you not heard the way he responds to Mindstars queations? it sounded like you interviewed a 13 year old, who read a book about Eve and was public speaking for his first time. their responses are not informative, and sometimes immature. BOOST PATCH! .... wtf!? he even screamed boost patch when he was asked about how we can fix the excessive speed issues.... umm thats a nerf zulu, not a boost... unless you plan to make every non nano ship faster to compensate. in that interview Mindstar did very well, he went straight to the point, still had a sense of humor, but didnt sound like two children spouting off 'knock knock' jokes props to mindstar, zulupark, you fail so hard, it actually makes me angry hammerhead, ... i wont comment on you yet, ill give you another chance before i make judgement and UNNERF the interdictors! Sincerely, Andreya _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 05:04:00 - [326] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 23/12/2007 11:05:21 nano ships are unbalaced. Nano ships are the new WCS. Lets be honest here - thats exactly what they are. A Dicter doing 10k/sec can drop bubble , get out of range and warp out before you even lock them in a sensor boosted rapier/huggin. And amarr lack rapier ships. We dont have enough mids and our tracking on lasers is almost half that of gallente. Anyone nano ship can tackle a Amarr bs for a laugh and the Amarr BS cannot win against a 10km/sec nanoship. Granted, the nanoship may not be able to kill the BS, but a gang of nanoships can - and thats whats killing pvp - everyone using WCS... Sorry, nano's to have risk free pvp. no, nano hacs arent whats killing your BS... whats killing it is you think you can run aroudn and be safe in a massive slow lumbering ship. BY YOURSELF, if you were with a partner. trust me, it would be a different story. eve is not a single player game, dont blame other people when it takes 4 nano hacs (or 4 of any other ship) to kill you _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2007.12.27 06:40:00 - [327] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong Nearly, they go about 5km/s. Which is plenty fast considering they have 2-3 times the hit points and 2-3 times the dps. Still a good difference. And they're Minmatar. If you're gonna compare, you have to compare to the Claw or at least Stiletto, not the Raptor and Taranis. It's not nearly interceptor speed. More like fast tech 1 frig speed (with less agility and much larger signature). If there's any unfair advantage to the Sabres I would say it's the fact that they do more damage and are easier to fit than other interdictors. No, you can compare everything to the sabre, its the fastest one. Its not like I can fly into a bubble and say "wait im flying a crusader and your sabre attacked me, but thats not fair because its not the same race to compare" --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 08:05:00 - [328] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. wow fail, ive been playing vids since i was a wee baby, and eve is by far the most immense tactical real time strategy i have EVER came accross... thanks for coming tho, lemme guess you fly a drake for pvp? f1 to f7 and your done? try something that requires some skill _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 10:19:00 - [329] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer No, you can compare everything to the sabre, its the fastest one. It's Minmatar. It has to be.
Hannobaal Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.27 10:30:00 - [330] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. wow fail, ive been playing vids since i was a wee baby, and eve is by far the most immense tactical real time strategy i have EVER came accross... thanks for coming tho, lemme guess you fly a drake for pvp? f1 to f7 and your done? try something that requires some skill I've been following his posts for a while. He's a former WoW player who thinks Eve is bad in all sorts of ways and WoW is far better and that WoW combat is far more complicated and tactical than Eve combat. He also thinks that combat in eve is all about skillpoints, and that a higher sp character will always win against a lower sp one.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.27 11:07:00 - [331] Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: Rells If the person in question doesn't have a tactical brain please don't let them anywhere near the code. This game is the most deep, tactically intensive game on the market and thoughts and musings like this will RUIN it into a blob gank and tank fest. Wow, you're clueless. You think pressing F1-F8 at an optimal range is a tactical game? Its a freakin' MMO for chists' sakes. You should try a different game, like an FPS or RTS. wow fail, ive been playing vids since i was a wee baby, and eve is by far the most immense tactical real time strategy i have EVER came accross... thanks for coming tho, lemme guess you fly a drake for pvp? f1 to f7 and your done? try something that requires some skill I've been following his posts for a while. He's a former WoW player who thinks Eve is bad in all sorts of ways and WoW is far better and that WoW combat is far more complicated and tactical than Eve combat. He also thinks that combat in eve is all about skillpoints, and that a higher sp character will always win against a lower sp one. wow is about as tacticalas pokemon. and trust me some people will swear on their souls that pokemon is the most tactical RPG ever made. Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.12.27 11:08:00 - [332] Originally by: MITSUK0 Edited by: MITSUK0 on 27/12/2007 04:16:31 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them. At the end of the day the only thing dictors and destroyers have in common is the slot layout and graphical model. In overall balance terms there is a ship class with no role (assault frigs) and yet you are all asking for dictors to be established with two roles? I agree they should be fast but they should have limited firepower, assault frigs/sniper hacs should fill that anti-frig role IMHO :) edit (posted with wrong char before bree ftw tbfh ;)) hopefully assult ships will become super anti frigates some day Official fanboy of jenny< pink supporter! looking to work in the art department with CCP, 3 years and counting. http://www.digipen.edu/main/Gallery_Games_2004#Narbacular_Dropthi
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:08:00 - [333] Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Lita F Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that. Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m dude never speak again, dictor are not and NEVER were faster than intys... so what you put snakes a gistii and polys on a dictor and it outruns a armour tanked taranis? use your brain, fit a gistii polys and snakes on an inty and they are faster INTYS ARE ALWAYS FASTER! if you invest the same time isk and SP on them. to fix the problems? return dictors, get rid of polycarbs nerfing dictors did NOT solve the speed problems in eve _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:15:00 - [334] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 23/12/2007 13:01:01 Originally by: that guy in the OP Dictors were never "super inties" apart from a few highly pimped examples. 5500m/s, 200 dps, web/scram, 5000 hit points, plus bubble, no polycarbons. With no rigs at all, its still > 5000m/s [Sabre, New Setup 1] Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Medium Shield Extender II 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I The fastest interceptor in the game [crusader] goes 7630 with tech 2 gear[2 od, 2 nano], has 1/3 the dps, no web, and 2/5ths the hit points. It also has no bubble and must use cap to do dps. it was a god damned super-inty damage.. doesnt matter, your an itty bitty little ship trying to break a battleships tank? think before you speak, damage only matter if you were chasing another smaller ship. dictor had more hp? woo frikken hoo, when a abbaddon or any other sniper gets a volley off on you, you get slammed with a 3000 damage volley, trust me i know, when your in an inty, you wont get hit by snipers unless you cant fly it properly, or an eagle or muninn is shooting you. why not take your focus off the sabre, and look at nano hacs, THOSE are super intys, but uess what, some can tank, and all still do 13 times the amount of damage than a crusader. intys are fast, and can now point at 30km easily with no cap issues. thats their job, to point and not get killed... the dictors job was to quickly get into position and bubble AND NOT GET KILLED!!!! (zulupark, i dont know how you get off thinking we should die everytime... what? you want more poeple to use throwaway alts?) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Archillius maximus Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:20:00 - [335] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Lita F Dictor that has less speed than 4000 m/s is a dead dictor what CCP achieved by speed nerf is this: Before nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil After nerf: Sabre price ~30 mil Fitting ~15 mil Polycarbons:~100 mil Why polycarbons ? It cant survive if its slower than 4000 m/s. If its faster its still killable but not by fricking sniping battleships. Give dictors their speed back and nerf the polycarbons/snakes and you solve whole lot of other problems too. How your balancing affected was just make it more isk intensive to fly dictors, thus poorer/newer players cant afford them = you will see maxed out speed dictors instead, not basic t2 fitted dictors. Heres a hint also: many new players wanted to go for dictors straight after ceptors, they dont now, becouse flying it without dieing when even seeing an hostile is impossible unless you invest 150-200 mil per dictor. no new player can afford that. Thats funny, because i dont think ive ever had a dictor going faster than 4km/s, and i dont lose that many. Dictors needed speed reducing, they were faster than interceptors and it was just plain stupid. Oh, and after fittings my dictors cost around 20m dude never speak again, dictor are not and NEVER were faster than intys... so what you put snakes a gistii and polys on a dictor and it outruns a armour tanked taranis? use your brain, fit a gistii polys and snakes on an inty and they are faster INTYS ARE ALWAYS FASTER! if you invest the same time isk and SP on them. to fix the problems? return dictors, get rid of polycarbs nerfing dictors did NOT solve the speed problems in eve I completly agree with Andreya here, zulu please start playing eve, i got a good starting corporation for you where you will learn all basic things it's called EVE University after that go into a 0.0 alliance and think about what you did. you will see you have not balanced the ''speed problem'' by just reducing the speed of dictors.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:48:00 - [336] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 24/12/2007 00:10:40 Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: Igetshotalot Originally by: Jade Constantine Nano-ships are a counter to blobs. One of the few remaining ways that a group of 20 skilled pilots can engage and cause casualties against a group of 100. and unfortunately the counter to only 1 nanoship is THE BLOB! That's not true and you know it. The nanoship will disengage if any of a multitude of countermeasures is used, whether it's on 1 ship or on several: * strong tank (nanoships don't do much damage ... a vaga can't even kill a good drake) * ECM * huginn/rapier/curse * 25Km neutralizers * even light drones with very good skills work together with a decent tank Those who blob a single nanoship would also blob a single any other ship ... 25k neuts only on bs. rest does not kill nanofit.. so i still need other people to nail down a single nanofit. to kill a nanofit i need to blob it.. ug i hope the rest of roadkill laughs at you for that, im sorry, but nanoships are easy to counter, 1 inty with a BS, ANY dampner or ECM ship, gees, thats the simplest forms, dont forget neuts, the HYENA!!!! <--- teh death to nanos. minnie recons, a stabber with a web... like seriously, we normally fly nano gangs, but our corp often uses battleship gangs as well... and all we need is one moderately tanked speed ship with a web and all the nano ships instapop, and each one you kill cost's its pilot 300 mill.. if you get the pod? another 400mill... but can i stress one thing? this is not about nano ship1!!! or SPEED! its about interdictors! wake up and realie your taking the least survivable nano ship and making it slower than a thorax with overdrives wake up _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.27 12:59:00 - [337] Originally by: Ephemeron Originally by: DHB WildCat You say there are ways to counter your ship speed. You are correct. Tell me how to kill it without a rapier / huginn / hyena? Answer: another speed ship. Vaga vs Vaga. Nanoship vs nanoship. you people fail lets see your billion isk uber fitted vaga kill a taranis and a kitsune... i hope your embarrased when you get kill by a couple of frigs an inty and any other ewar ship will laughably kill any nano ship (within reason) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.12.27 15:47:00 - [338] Sabre definitely needed nerfing, it's questionable whether the other interceptors needed nerfing. The current nano gang craze is way over the top - when you stack up all the high end speed bonuses available, you just go far too ridiculously fast. Ok, sure, speed is these ships tank - why should it be so superior to every other kind of tank? It makes you virtually immune to damage from all weapon systems as long as you maintain your speed, and it lets you escape fights that are going poorly for you and chase down people who are trying to get away. Don't you think that's a bit much for one tanking system to have over another tanking system? Folks raise valid points that "well, that's our only alternative to blobbing" or "Well if you don't do this you're dead in the first bubble" but that doesn't change the fact that speed tanking is overpowered compared to the other forms of tanking. I don't want to see the game devolve into 'tank 'n gank' but I also don't want to see it devolve into 'nano for your small gang or go home'.
Red Desire	Posted - 2007.12.27 16:14:00 - [339] Hmm...so Zulu was part of QA, that explains the huge post-Trinity problems, their QA dep rullz, to get promoted Zulu was probably the no.1 there. Explains a lot. Anyways, I didn't like flying a Flycatcher before, what can I say now. Nerfing a entire ship class just because one ship was being twinked to extreme speeds, sounds rather silly. I want to see REAL design choices, not this stupid nerf all direction.
Mjnari Agony Unleashed	Posted - 2007.12.27 23:32:00 - [340] Edited by: Mjnari on 27/12/2007 23:34:49 The main problem with upending the 'speed allows you to dictate engagement' tenet is that it's central to the fun part of both Minmatar design philosophy and tactical decisions. If you alter the game in such a way as to change that tenet, the following things happen: - the Minmatar race becomes 'Caldari-lite' (e.g. Matar ships getting more slots, and then shield boost bonuses after CCP nerfed their speed) - you take away a big part of EVE's complexity (the rock-paper-scissors fun bit) (webbing/damp/ECM become less attractive, and ship fits/gang comps further standardize) You really need to get into the business of balancing things through how they can be used rather than how they are used. And I call bull** if you think, "How can we possibly predict what the players will do with things?" If you're balancing speed, then either talk to your in-house nano player(s) or outsource it and question some public player(s). If you're balancing tank, then same. Etc. etc. You are not beholden to your community for how they are using things, only how they can use them.** If you balance the 'are,' then eventually someone discovers the 'can' and we're stuck with an unbalanced game for two or three months until you fix it. Interdictors are running amock? Look not at the interdictors, but at the counters. If those are of questionable efficacy, then you look at the holistic picture for what to tweak and make changes based on that view. This "_X_ ships when used are unbalanced, so _X_ ships get a nerf" simplicity could be accomplished by a monkey. "See grapefruit; nerf grapefruit." "See banana; nerf banana." ------------------------ Minmatar, It should be like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair shooting an Uzi.
Neal Cassady Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.12.28 02:18:00 - [341] what are dictors? seriously, though, there have been a ton of reckless nerfs recently, and a speed nerf of any kind is not necessary. rapier and huginn are two of the coolest ships in the game, and it seems only forum whiners and people without sufficient experience (cough) don't understand this.
SumDum AirHawk Alliance Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.12.28 02:41:00 - [342] I was cleaning out my old ship setups, and decided to update my Flycatcher setup for post-Trinity. I don't mean to derail but . . . what do you think? Overpowered just a tad maybe? Since the role of a dictor is now to bubble, crawl away and with any luck, cloak and hide until the fight is over I figured this is about the most effective use of my old friend. --- [Flycatcher, Cleanup Aisle Five] Expanded Cargohold II 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium Shield Extender I Invulnerability Field I Sensor Booster I, Targeting Speed Sensor Booster I, Targeting Speed Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Prototype Cloaking Device I Salvager I Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] --- It does clean up messy gate camps a little "too fast", and boy howdy does t2 salvage sell well in Jita, so I am pretty sure someone will jam the nerf-bat up it's ass sometime soon.
Hul'ka Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:01:00 - [343] Originally by: SumDum [Flycatcher, Cleanup Aisle Five] Expanded Cargohold II 1MN MicroWarpdrive I Medium Shield Extender I Invulnerability Field I Sensor Booster I, Targeting Speed Sensor Booster I, Targeting Speed Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe Prototype Cloaking Device I Salvager I Salvager I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] --- drop the tractor beams, sincu you can't tractor wrecks that aren't yours :S but nice fit, gonna try something similar on a Sabre --------- I want to phew phew
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:03:00 - [344] Originally by: Estephania Originally by: Aladdin Insane Edited by: Aladdin Insane on 25/12/2007 00:38:03 Originally by: Synapse Archae When you start roaming with battleships and drakes and such, PVP diversity is over. Thank you. Where is the t1 cruisers? Assault frigs? Do logistics have a role in PvP? Destroyers? Hell, what about a t1 frig??? When is the last time someone saw an arbitrator, celestis, bellicose in a gang? They have a use, useful bonuses (ok, maybe not a bellicose, but does the torp change make this ship a little more useful?) i'm sick of seeing the same HAC, recon, dictor gangs. its even worse when Drakes start roaming, even a bloody Ferox would be more interesting. You make a very good point here. Every time I engage I see the swarms of T2 around me. The game is becoming not about skill, but about ISK. Whoever has more billions wins. Some ships are never found. T1 cruisers are rarely seen on a battlefield, T1 frigs are a laughstock it's all 100mill+ setups; I'm quite tired of the situation when if you don't have 500mill in the wallet, you'll be hard pressed to fit and lose anything. I personally was in a predominantly command ship gang, what is this coming to? Eve is going somewhere and it's not a good place at all. The immense rift between the rich and poor pilots in Eve is widening even more each time CCP introduces another 500 mill new toy. thats because everyone and their dog is inventing, and its so cheap to buy and fit t2 ships nowadays.. a arazu is like 100mill fully fitted including cloak sometimes depending on market... THIS is why everythings tech 2... even intys are down to like 3.5 mill sometimes.. 1mn mwds are less than 2 mill instead of 8 mill... i miss the days when t2 was actually something of value,,, now when we kill people and check their loot we say 'meh, its just tech 2, no faction' .. or 'the cloak survived!? .. bah just leave it, its not worth the m3' return our interdictors-remove polycarbs, problem solved _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:10:00 - [345] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 26/12/2007 08:39:29 Originally by: Hannobaal Hint: Say we have 80% resists on one damage type, and we get a bonus of 10% giving us resists of 82% (rather than 90%). That's not stacking penalties. It's the normal way resistance bonuses are applied (without stacking penalties). Hint: say you have a max skilled damnation in gang producing his gang bonus of 25.875%. Now, assume that you have max skills and a tank consisting of 2 eanms IIs, and a damage control II on an amarran ship O.K. now what are you resists? Are they ([Base -1] x .75 x 7825 x .85 x .74125) +1 ? [85.2/70.4/72.26/75.96] Or are they ([Base-1] x .74125 x .7825 x 8575 x .85) +1 ? [83.1/66.2/68.3/73.5] Ill give you a hint, its the second one. Ill also just plain tell you why, its because gang mod bonuses are stacking penalized for any attribute that has a stacking penality associated with it, just like any other effect in the game is. Originally by: Rells The pre-nerf Sabre is what all the other interdictors should have been. Quit your trolling, the Sabre was a freaking super-interceptor, nearly as fast as many of the interceptors with tonnes more hit points, damage, and the ability to drop bubbles. It nearly made interceptors obsolete no, you quit your trolling, interceptors have always gone 25% faster than a sabre with the same speed fits. and they can point at 30 km easily now, without cap issues. a sabre oribting with a point is like 500sig a inty is 140sig... the itty bitty little more tank a sabre has means nothing when your under that much more fire sabres were great,, adn they should be... but heretics were amazing as well.. and hell the eris was actually the fastest... and woot.. even the flycatcher had enough mids to help a smallll gang with ewar... (eris needed a fix tho) none of these replaced intys... especially with the intys new bonus's and dont forget the hyena... which are EVERYWHERE... are the death to all uber interdictors that once existed... return our damn interdictors to what 95% of the community is saying.. your making the game unattractive to play by pulling this kinda junk off on us _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:15:00 - [346] Originally by: DeadDuck Originally by: Corstaad What EvE doesn't understand is there drawing alot of people that like the gang type warfare. These are players that understand how powerful a few can be against a "blob" of unthinking people. With Fleet warfare we understand you give up alot of yourself for the Greater good. This Greater good works for most fleet ops but shouldn't make or state what EvE's PvP should be like. If they want want to make it BS's at Gate online go ahead but really your going to make this game plain a simple lame. What I find lame is that a entire race, in this case Caldari, arent even able to do damage to the nano crap flying around. Big majority of the Missiles boats just dont hurt the nano fits. Is this correct ???? And no I dont even fly caldari ships... The fact is that velocity modules are completly unbalanced and are in a certain way responsibles for Blobs. A Gang not fitted with nanos will have to devote 2/3 ships to catch a single nano ship, because they can always try to run away. The problem with nano ships is not the damage or the tank they dont have, the problem is their velocity him self... when ships are faster then missiles, when you see missiles doing 0 damage to a ship because the game mechanics werent studied to face this kind of fits, When missiles make 0 damage because they are faster then a explosion velocity ... something is very wrong... The fact that a speed nerf might be unconfortable to some opilots dont make the speed nerf less necessary. stop crying and fit just ONE of yoru ships with heavy neuts... or how abotu maybe ONE hyena... assign some shield drones to him? o whats that? TEAMWORK!? tactics!? yea, they work... hence why we dont have problems with nano gangs... ever thought of a celestis? or a couple blackbirds? ONE scorpion? hell and ECM ship with a taranis or two can take out a billion isk nano ship... stop complaining and start thinking... this thread is about dictors. non nano ships,, dictors are supposed to be fast, for some reason, Zulu thinks otherwise. get rid of polycarbs, return our dictors to normal. ALL PROBLEMS SOLVED _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:25:00 - [347] Originally by: Goumindong Nearly, they go about 5km/s. Which is plenty fast considering they have 2-3 times the hit points and 2-3 times the dps. dps close range and in web range... umm meaning your dead. also going 30% slower than a speed fit inty... . also meaning, your pointed and eventually dead.. i can tell you dont fly dictors or intys on a regular basis, and if you do you fail at them. another point,,, intys dont do damage, its not their job,,, hell take away all their guns, or at least their bonus's to their guns and give them to something else to help them tackle even more.. they are tackling ships,,, portable points, nothing more... on that point... all dictors did crap damage.. yes a sabre hurt a little, but only to little things... but the sabre could not hurt anything big without getting its own arse popped for being in web range... all while the heretic and flycatcher could hit thier targets from afar.... regardless... dictors were fast, fast enough to get their bubbles where they needed to be, and to run away after... and the best part? to kill STUPID interceptors who werent paying enough attention, allowing a ship 30% slower than them to get a web on them dont blame dictors, blame yourself _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:27:00 - [348] Originally by: MITSUK0 Edited by: MITSUK0 on 27/12/2007 04:16:31 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them. At the end of the day the only thing dictors and destroyers have in common is the slot layout and graphical model. In overall balance terms there is a ship class with no role (assault frigs) and yet you are all asking for dictors to be established with two roles? I agree they should be fast but they should have limited firepower, assault frigs/sniper hacs should fill that anti-frig role IMHO :) edit (posted with wrong char before bree ftw tbfh ;)) well, theres only two sniper hacs... and leave assault frigs out of this seeing as they are some of the slowest ships in the game, therefore NOT being able to kill intys... as i posted before.. dictors dont have firepower, a taranis hurts more than a nano sabre, and much more than the other dictors. _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:31:00 - [349] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong Nearly, they go about 5km/s. Which is plenty fast considering they have 2-3 times the hit points and 2-3 times the dps. Still a good difference. And they're Minmatar. If you're gonna compare, you have to compare to the Claw or at least Stiletto, not the Raptor and Taranis. It's not nearly interceptor speed. More like fast tech 1 frig speed (with less agility and much larger signature). If there's any unfair advantage to the Sabres I would say it's the fact that they do more damage and are easier to fit than other interdictors. No, you can compare everything to the sabre, its the fastest one. Its not like I can fly into a bubble and say "wait im flying a crusader and your sabre attacked me, but thats not fair because its not the same race to compare" _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:37:00 - [350] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong No, you can compare everything to the sabre, its the fastest one. Its not like I can fly into a bubble and say "wait im flying a crusader and your sabre attacked me, but thats not fair because its not the same race to compare" wrong, dont bash a ship if you don tknow everything abotu it. all dictors need 'should' be nano fitted, the fastest is the Eris (although it still blows) then the sabre, and the heretic is only 5% slower, although doing full damage outside of web range (fair trade) flycatcher is much slower, but can deal damage much much farther out in safety.... sabre is not fastest, get that through your thick skulls... and if your complaining cause its overpowered? compare a sabre to a flycatcher.... then compare a taranis to a crow.... (or a claw or a malediction... ) i dont hear ANY of you guys saying a taranis is overpowered cause it does more damage than the crow!// why? cause it fights withing web range... so does a sabre.. .so stop crying about it _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.28 19:38:00 - [351] sorry my last post's quote didnt work properly _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Gramobolanda	Posted - 2007.12.30 01:08:00 - [352] bump
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2008.01.02 09:09:00 - [353] did anyone out there listen to anything questioned in this thread.... /me an ex-dictor pilot. I fly nano vaga catching inties now :) oh the fun to tackle Tri and watch him panic! snipe or logofski
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 09:33:00 - [354] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Andreya Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: Goumindong No, you can compare everything to the sabre, its the fastest one. Its not like I can fly into a bubble and say "wait im flying a crusader and your sabre attacked me, but thats not fair because its not the same race to compare" wrong, dont bash a ship if you don tknow everything abotu it. all dictors need 'should' be nano fitted, the fastest is the Eris (although it still blows) then the sabre, and the heretic is only 5% slower, although doing full damage outside of web range (fair trade) flycatcher is much slower, but can deal damage much much farther out in safety.... sabre is not fastest, get that through your thick skulls... and if your complaining cause its overpowered? compare a sabre to a flycatcher.... then compare a taranis to a crow.... (or a claw or a malediction... ) i dont hear ANY of you guys saying a taranis is overpowered cause it does more damage than the crow!// why? cause it fights withing web range... so does a sabre.. .so stop crying about it I think sabre has higher base speed...and Im happy you lost your toy. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 09:37:00 - [355] Originally by: Andreya Originally by: MITSUK0 Edited by: MITSUK0 on 27/12/2007 04:16:31 Originally by: Hannobaal Originally by: MOTOK0 Dictors drop bubbles, that is the role they have. They shouldn't be dogfighting anti-interceptor gods. If/when they are they encroach on the roles other ship classes are supposed to have. Give them speed to survive in gang work but gimp the firepower so they are not solo frig pwning machines and they will be sorted. People will still whine though because if it's not overpowered or it cant pwn solo then the masses think it sucks. The roles they have is to drop bubbles and to kill frigates. They are based on the destroyers after all. And if they wanted them to be slow, they wouldn't have given them base speeds like slow interceptors/fast tech 1 frigates when they first created them. At the end of the day the only thing dictors and destroyers have in common is the slot layout and graphical model. In overall balance terms there is a ship class with no role (assault frigs) and yet you are all asking for dictors to be established with two roles? I agree they should be fast but they should have limited firepower, assault frigs/sniper hacs should fill that anti-frig role IMHO :) edit (posted with wrong char before bree ftw tbfh ;)) well, theres only two sniper hacs... and leave assault frigs out of this seeing as they are some of the slowest ships in the game, therefore NOT being able to kill intys... as i posted before.. dictors dont have firepower, a taranis hurts more than a nano sabre, and much more than the other dictors. A taranis doesnt drop bubbles. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.02 10:05:00 - [356] Edited by: Reacz on 02/01/2008 10:08:49 Originally by: Otto Matic All the cries for nano nerfs are simply the result of: * CCP boosting Caldari too much * as a result, everyone flying Caldari * all the whiney kids now crying "omg I can't hit him with my missiles" What can you do when 50+% of the user base flies Caldari now? No wonder we are seeing whole 250 man fleets with Caracals and Drakes these days (hi Insurgency & Russian friends). 250 Insurgency in Caracals & Drakes, indeed seeing this sight would strike fear into any man. shivers I mean, we often talk of how 'pwn' our passive Drake tanks are.....And last night, I saw over 3 Caracals and 5 Drakes in fleet, omg... And regarding speed - this nerf sucks, I used to live in the Drone Regions and these nano-fags used to pay us a visit everyday, now that I've moved out I want to go back to the Drone Regions to do the same; then this nerf comes, damnit! /me goes back to playing Vexor Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Valorem ([email protected])
Radioactive Babe Red Frost	Posted - 2008.01.02 15:54:00 - [357] Are all the usual vested interest "OMG I dont have a massive advantage anymore, devs are thick" posts finished? The pro lobby always goes on about a single nano ship being useless, and the anti lobby always goes "ohnoes my missles/guns cant hit". They are of course both wrong, one is lying and the other isnt using their brains. Any time my main has come across nanoed ships they have been in gangs, on one memorable occasion there were > 15 vagas in one gang... you might get one or two of them with an equally sized gang but they will wtfpwn any other similarly sized or even larger gang. They are too hard to kill in an unplanned fight. E.G. a gang of 10 mixed type ships that might have a huginn with them will get wtfpwned by 5 x nano ships (vagas, ishtars, maybe even sacrileges) ... the huginn will last seconds, then the rest will get popped in order of threat and value.. All this crap about easily killing nanos is rubbish, it requires specially selected ships in contrived situations that usually can only happen when camping. Snakes and other speed implants need the **** nerfed out of them, yeah some rich players will whine, so what.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:12:00 - [358] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Any time my main has come across nanoed ships they have been in gangs, on one memorable occasion there were > 15 vagas in one gang... you might get one or two of them with an equally sized gang but they will wtfpwn any other similarly sized or even larger gang. They are too hard to kill in an unplanned fight. E.G. a gang of 10 mixed type ships that might have a huginn with them will get wtfpwned by 5 x nano ships (vagas, ishtars, maybe even sacrileges) ... the huginn will last seconds, then the rest will get popped in order of threat and value.. All this crap about easily killing nanos is rubbish, it requires specially selected ships in contrived situations that usually can only happen when camping. Snakes and other speed implants need the ** nerfed out of them, yeah some rich players will whine, so what. This gentleman is part of the Le Whine Brigade** and so lets have some fun here. So what you are trying to say is that 15 drakes and caracals and ravens should be able to deal with 15 vaga's? Ships that cost 1/5 to 1/2 that of a good vaga fit? Again you use extremes to justify nerfing one type of play. Zulu wanted to nerf carriers because warping 50 of them in was just too much. the nerf would have been too much for the majority of play. Get your intel straight, nano's die to tactics, smart pilots, good FCing. And as for your comment about snakes+implants need to be nerfed, would your uber mining implants fall under that catagory as well? Are you the one stripping veld in empire? Here you talk about rich players which don't necessary make up the majority of pilots. Ask not what one can do to stop others from whining, but what you can do to stop your own whining first. Bottom line is stop using extreme examples to justify your failures at PVP. Learn a crucial fact that, PSSST!!! PSST!!!... Sometimes there are fights you just can't win. It happens, just because you boot up your machine doesn't mean you get to have a victory every time you undock. Speed is fine, whine is not
Seeing EyeDog	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:15:00 - [359] Originally by: Matrixcvd Speed is fine, whine is not and this argument wouldnt have anything to do with the alliance you fly for, right? Nano ships and speed is getting a bit too overpowered. People are nanoing ships that have no business being nanoed, and actually getting to about 4 or 5km/s. Tell me thats what CCP intended and ill stfu. _____________________ Originally by: Locus Bey Intelligence isn't a prequisite for being a Goon, in fact its a deficit.
Nyx Avatar	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:15:00 - [360] Edited by: Nyx Avatar on 02/01/2008 16:16:26 lol after the way they killed the eos, why shouldn't they "balance" everything else similiarly??? Eventually every ship in this game will be modeled after a huge nerf bat, I honestly thought that was what the graphics update was all about, I was sorely disappointed.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:32:00 - [361] Edited by: Matrixcvd on 02/01/2008 16:33:32 Originally by: Seeing EyeDog Originally by: Matrixcvd Speed is fine, whine is not and this argument wouldnt have anything to do with the alliance you fly for, right? Nano ships and speed is getting a bit too overpowered. People are nanoing ships that have no business being nanoed, and actually getting to about 4 or 5km/s. Tell me thats what CCP intended and ill stfu. nd this argument wouldnt have anything to do with the alliance you fly for, right? Nano ships and speed is getting a bit too overpowered. People are nanoing ships that have no business being nanoed, and actually getting to about 4 or 5km/s. Tell me thats what CCP intended and ill stfu. But thats a good thing not a bad thing. For most people vagas are the fastest cruisers out there, they are the top, heavy support ship. Other ships can approach vaga speeds but ship to ship its role is secure. This allows everyone a piece of the speed action if they so chose. Now if you wanted to play a slow game, fit 5 or 6 BS's remote rep and neuts and watch what happens to the vagas. But if you fly low isk T1 crap at T2 you get roasty toasty. So most people look at the whiners and see, low skill, low experience pilots complaining because their gang of 20 got butchered by 7 to 8 guys, flying together, who have PVP'd for a long time. They complain here about combat and scenarios that aren't common place enough to justify a nerf. Another major point is speed keeps the distances down. 0.0 is a pretty quiet place and empty. If i had to move around in a slow gang with slow ships, the game would be extremely boring. The speed game has been here for quite a while. What hasn't been here are the WoW pilots and all the new players who are finding eve to be a very hard game with severe consequences. Learn like the rest of us, speed is just fine and easily killable.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:45:00 - [362] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A taranis doesnt drop bubbles. it doesnt need to Trashed sig, Shark was here
LaVista Vista Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2008.01.02 16:54:00 - [363] Its painful for me to say. But please, bring back TomB and Tuxford. At this rate, Zulupark is gonna have nerfed the half of eve by this time next year, and make it all scissor-stone-paper, with NO room, WHATSOEVER, to think out of the box. Please dont This signature is brought to you by EBankÖ, free space for moderators to brag.
RaAshan	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:56:00 - [364] Edited by: RaAshan on 02/01/2008 17:59:39 Originally by: LaVista Vista Its painful for me to say. But please, bring back TomB and Tuxford. At this rate, Zulupark is gonna have nerfed the half of eve by this time next year, and make it all scissor-stone-paper, with NO room, WHATSOEVER, to think out of the box. Please dont Without the scissor-stone-paper mechanic, Eve will never be an enjoyable MMORTS. It is the basic principle that guides any RTS. I think they are moving in the right direction. Alot of people just have the wrong impression of eve. They see it as a WOW, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies type of Rpg, where how powerful your character is, is most important. Eve, however, is nothing like that. It is about the co-operative play. About using strategy to defeat your enemy, not brute force. The more they move away from the skill(sp, exp) orientated game and more towards the tactical strategic game, eve will become even more enjoyable.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2008.01.02 17:59:00 - [365] Originally by: RaAshan Originally by: LaVista Vista Its painful for me to say. But please, bring back TomB and Tuxford. At this rate, Zulupark is gonna have nerfed the half of eve by this time next year, and make it all scissor-stone-paper, with NO room, WHATSOEVER, to think out of the box. Please dont Without the scissor-stone-paper mechanic, Eve will never be an enjoyable MMORTS. It is the basic principle that guides any RTS. I think they are moving in the right direction. Alot of people just have the wrong impression of eve. They see it as a WOW, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies type of RTS, where how powerful your character is, is most important. Eve, however, is nothing like that. It is about the co-operative play. About using strategy to defeat your enemy, not brute force. The more they move away from the skill(sp, exp) orientated game and more towards the tactical strategic game, eve will become even more enjoyable. Wrong, they are destroying the tactical part by nerfing the versatility in fitting your ship. They are making it a pure numbers game, where zerging wins battles and nothing else. If I want to play Starcraft online, I will do so, but EVE was about elaborate fittings and also about investing in SP and gear to improve your own capabilities. It should stay that way. Disclaimer: I do not speak for the fanbois.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:02:00 - [366] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Lyria Skydancer A taranis doesnt drop bubbles. it doesnt need to Ok then lets give back interdictor speed but remove bubble-ability. I guess they wont be needing it either if they go faster then a taranis. No? Thought so. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:03:00 - [367] Originally by: LaVista Vista Its painful for me to say. But please, bring back TomB and Tuxford. At this rate, Zulupark is gonna have nerfed the half of eve by this time next year, and make it all scissor-stone-paper, with NO room, WHATSOEVER, to think out of the box. Please dont Out of the box thinking is a myth in eve. It doesnt exist. No one is thinking out of the box at all, its either cookie cutter or its exploits. But yeah, I had more trust in TomB and Tux tbh. --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
RaAshan	Posted - 2008.01.02 18:39:00 - [368] Originally by: Lazuran Originally by: RaAshan Without the scissor-stone-paper mechanic, Eve will never be an enjoyable MMORTS. It is the basic principle that guides any RTS. I think they are moving in the right direction. Alot of people just have the wrong impression of eve. They see it as a WOW, Everquest, Star Wars Galaxies type of RTS, where how powerful your character is, is most important. Eve, however, is nothing like that. It is about the co-operative play. About using strategy to defeat your enemy, not brute force. The more they move away from the skill(sp, exp) orientated game and more towards the tactical strategic game, eve will become even more enjoyable.[/quote Wrong, they are destroying the tactical part by nerfing the versatility in fitting your ship. They are making it a pure numbers game, where zerging wins battles and nothing else. If I want to play Starcraft online, I will do so, but EVE was about elaborate fittings and also about investing in SP and gear to improve your own capabilities. It should stay that way. EXACTLY! You want to make your own character an uber character just like other RPG's. That doesn't work in a game like eve though. Eve isn't about making your character better than everyone elses just by skilling. The devs are working towards making a game that is tweakable, but the real strategy and out of the box thinking will come from the tactics/actions employed by corporations and alliances. They are not trying to create the one, lvl 99 character destroys all others WOW game that you want. This is not a solo game based on your skill points. It is an action game based on what you do and how you interact with other people.
Radioactive Babe Red Frost	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:09:00 - [369] Edited by: Radioactive Babe on 02/01/2008 19:09:16 Originally by: Matrixcvd This gentleman is part of the Triumvirate Whine Brigade and so lets have some fun here. So what you are trying to say is that 15 drakes and caracals and ravens should be able to deal with 15 vaga's? Ships that cost 1/5 to 1/2 that of a good vaga fit? Err... caracals, drakes and ravens? The jumping to conclusions is strong in this one. I did not mention any non nano ship type except huginn. I dont usually have non t2 ships in gangs I fly with (the odd newish player in a tier 3 BC). And what do you consider a good vaga fit? All T2? mix of T2 and faction? ... if it is just T2 then most if not all ships in gangs I fly with would be equal to or exceed that cost. Some of the guys also fit faction mods and would equal a nicely fitted out vaga easily in isk value. Quote: Again you use extremes to justify nerfing one type of play. Zulu wanted to nerf carriers because warping 50 of them in was just too much. the nerf would have been too much for the majority of play. While mentioning a gang with 15 or more vagas was showing an extreme that you wont see every day, they DO happen. Gangs of several nano ships is a daily occurance in some parts. Quote: Get your intel straight, nano's die to tactics, smart pilots, good FCing. And as for your comment about snakes+implants need to be nerfed, would your uber mining implants fall under that catagory as well? Are you the one stripping veld in empire? Here you talk about rich players which don't necessary make up the majority of pilots. Ask not what one can do to stop others from whining, but what you can do to stop your own whining first. I never said you could not kill a nanoed ship, what I said was that a nano gang will win almost every time against almost every other gang (aside from nonsensical gangs like ones with 10 huginns and curses). A normal gang of long time eve players (CS's, un-nanoed HAC's etc) will lose or draw every time with a gang of nanoed HAC's. Nano gang will first take out long range webbers and then long range nossing/neutralising ships ... sure they might lose a few ships, but if they dont run, they will likely win. This alt has never mined iirc, just an empire hauling alt. I have never had a mining implant in any of my chars, just standard +3's and +4's and gang implants. I have mined of course when starting out and on corp mining ops, that is about the limit of it, just like most low sec / 0.0 dwellers. However dont let that stop you and please feel free to continue jumping to conclusions. Quote: Bottom line is stop using extreme examples to justify your failures at PVP. Learn a crucial fact that, PSSST!!! PSST!!!... Sometimes there are fights you just can't win. It happens, just because you boot up your machine doesn't mean you get to have a victory every time you undock. Speed is fine, whine is not You see, you say that people cannot expect to win every time, but that is exactly what nanoing up does, while you may not always win, getting away to fight another day in almost every situation is in most peoples book; a win. It is not what eve is about and was the main reason why WCS get nerfed to hell (quite rightly). My two accounts have more than 100mil sp's between them, I can easily afford to lose CS's etc, I havent checked the prices of a snake set in quite some time but I would be confident that I could lose a set or two of them as well. I got a set on sisi once (with all the other implant slots as well) and found it to be a style of play that just did not appeal to me. Just to shut you up; I have lost two ships to nanoed ships ... a sabre that caught me in a domi ratting a long way from home and a gang of mixed nanoed HAC's that beat the crap out of our similarly sized non nanoed HAC gang. You win some and you lose some .... except if you are in a nano hac with speed implants
Refazed R A G E	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:29:00 - [370] Edited by: Refazed on 02/01/2008 19:30:04 Originally by: Radioactive Babe My two accounts have more than 100mil sp's between them, I can easily afford to lose CS's etc, I havent checked the prices of a snake set in quite some time but I would be confident that I could lose a set or two of them as well. I got a set on sisi once (with all the other implant slots as well) and found it to be a style of play that just did not appeal to me. Just to shut you up; I have lost two ships to nanoed ships ... a sabre that caught me in a domi ratting a long way from home and a gang of mixed nanoed HAC's that beat the crap out of our similarly sized non nanoed HAC gang. You win some and you lose some .... except if you are in a nano hac with speed implants If you lose a domi to a solo sabre in 0.0 you are doing something wrong. nothing is invincible no matter how much isk or sp you put into it. But if I put significant training and effort into a ship and setup I would expect others to do the same to beat me at even numbers. Cant beat me? Work harder to counter my effort. There is no i-win button in eve for nano's and there shouldn't be for idiots who cant figure out how to kill them. This isn't a my gun is bigger then yours game. Its a my planning and preparation is better then yours game. The dictor nerf screwed up an entire ship class. it went from being a 'decent useful 50-100M investment' to a 'don't bother unless you got an isk tree' type ship. *edited because OP cleaned up their quote pyramid
Evenfall Phoenix The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.01.02 19:44:00 - [371] Originally by: Refazed Edited by: Refazed on 02/01/2008 19:30:04 Originally by: Radioactive Babe There is no i-win button in eve for nano's and there shouldn't be for idiots who cant figure out how to kill them. This isn't a my gun is bigger then yours game. Its a my planning and preparation is better then yours game. The dictor nerf screwed up an entire ship class. it went from being a 'decent useful 50-100M investment' to a 'don't bother unless you got an isk tree' type ship. This man speaks the truth here. The dictor nerf screwed an entire class of ships. Which, were already about to be outclassed by HICs. Dictors have no real place right now. They can't do anything effectively. Yay... it can drop bubbles... but a HIC can drop one and tank with it. The dictor is a deadship. All thanks to one man that wants to nerf, nerf, nerf without thinking of the consequences those nerfs bring. At any rate nerfins should stop. Nerfs are nothing more than an easy way out of a problem, and if nerfing continues the problem grows to a point where it cannot be managed. What should happen is a balance/boost to opposite effects. Speed too much, boost anti-speed modules. Create modules that work better on faster moving ships and are weaker to slow moving ones. Nerfing leads to a dying game (SWG anyone?). Which is something I do not want to see Eve become.
Radioactive Babe Red Frost	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:12:00 - [372] Originally by: Refazed If you lose a domi to a solo sabre in 0.0 you are doing something wrong. Me = PVE fit, large drones only , him = pre nerf fit.... caught me deep in armour and helped the npc's. Quote: nothing is invincible no matter how much isk or sp you put into it. But if I put significant training and effort into a ship and setup I would expect others to do the same to beat me at even numbers. Cant beat me? Work harder to counter my effort. He reads but he does not understand (and he also attempts epeen waving .... "me>you"). I have said on several occasions that nanos are not invincible, just a LOT closer to it than every other ship. Quote: There is no i-win button in eve for nano's and there shouldn't be for idiots who cant figure out how to kill them. This isn't a my gun is bigger then yours game. Its a my planning and preparation is better then yours game. The thing is, it takes NO planning to make a nano gang (95% of which are cookie cutter setups) ... however it takes quite a bit of planning to deal with them (especially if there is no-one available with minnie cruiser 5) ... I am not talking about a single or even a couple of them, I am talking about gangs of them, there are many corps/alliances that fly in nano gangs Quote: The dictor nerf screwed up an entire ship class. it went from being a 'decent useful 50-100M investment' to a 'don't bother unless you got an isk tree' type ship. Sabre was overpowered, they nerfed the whole class when they should have just knocked it into line with the others.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:12:00 - [373] Originally by: RaAshan The devs are working towards making a game that is tweakable, but the real strategy and out of the box thinking will come from the tactics/actions employed by corporations and alliances. They are not trying to create the one, lvl 99 character destroys all others WOW game that you want. This is not a solo game based on your skill points. It is an action game based on what you do and how you interact with other people. The game is not tweakable if they make stiff penalties and wipe whole ships out because "it is exceding its roll" "or too many people are complaining". Look, when i first started, all i cared about when PVPing was immediately looking at how old the enemy was, and judging to engage based on that. After flying with people i stopped caring and just played, fought, won, lost, learned and move on. To fly in 0.0 in small squads you need to be a skilled pilot, especially in engineering and Spaceship command, to be able to fly adn fit the ships. This takes an extremely long time 6months to 1 year. Thats alot different tahn pickin up any other game. So skillpoints are extremely important when looking at small gangs 2-30 pilots. After 30+ pilots is when you get lost in the scene of lag and primary death. So SP is important, but flying with experienced pilots is as important. Its a balance With regards to PVP, there are 2 types, speed and non speed. Most pilots should fit an MWD and end there, there should never be a discussion. Once you get more advanced and develop a sense of tactics ships, without MWD's can be effective. If they nerf speed, only 1 race would have any chance of going fast, where as quite a few ships can be made to move moderately fast. So instead of multiple types of fits for ships, depending on situation you can only fit tank/cap because there is nothing else to work with. It narrows the possiblities instead of bringing acceptable gameplay changes. Since it doesn't occur to most new pilots they don't need to fill up on hardners and AR/SB's you have this extremely large class of cannon fodder, that simply can't get it thru there heads that maxing out your shield/armor resists is the best way to go. Hopefully CCP doesn't cave into the crying by making huge speed cuts like they did with the dictor which is just ridiculous. 10% would have been fine and easily placed them between inty's and HAC's. Instead i have sceen drakes move faster its just pathetic
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:26:00 - [374] Originally by: Radioactive Babe Err... caracals, drakes and ravens? The jumping to conclusions is strong in this one. I did not mention any non nano ship type except huginn. I dont usually have non t2 ships in gangs I fly with (the odd newish player in a tier 3 BC). And what do you consider a good vaga fit? All T2? mix of T2 and faction? ... if it is just T2 then most if not all ships in gangs I fly with would be equal to or exceed that cost. Some of the guys also fit faction mods and would equal a nicely fitted out vaga easily in isk value. Pick whatever T1 garbage you want, the caldari ships are just an example, your not making any sense. All i was trying to do was to highlight that people think they can fight T2 with T1, faction no faction, I don't care. Originally by: Radioactive Babe I never said you could not kill a nanoed ship, what I said was that a nano gang will win almost every time against almost every other gang (aside from nonsensical gangs like ones with 10 huginns and curses). A normal gang of long time eve players (CS's, un-nanoed HAC's etc) will lose or draw every time with a gang of nanoed HAC's. Nano gang will first take out long range webbers and then long range nossing/neutralising ships ... sure they might lose a few ships, but if they dont run, they will likely win. If you can't be bothered to fit a MWD then you can't be expected to win a fight. if you have been playing for so long and can't do the simple things in combat in EvE i don't know what you are trying to prove. Speed kills speed and most of the high priority targets for your vagas can web/scram/jam at ranges that typically are far out of optimal except for drones, so you now have vagas that aren't shoot and relying on damage that can get removed quite easily. I seriously doubt you know what your doing so lets just leave it at that. Just because astroids have hit the earth doesn't mean you should live underground. Just cause once in awhile you see 15 vagas, doesn't mean there is a problem with speed. It means you have a problem, and to solve that problem you either bring 15 vagas or something creative or go fight someone you can kill, you will not win today
Jesnen Amarr Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:27:00 - [375] Originally by: Matrixcvd Originally by: RaAshan The devs are working towards making a game that is tweakable, but the real strategy and out of the box thinking will come from the tactics/actions employed by corporations and alliances. They are not trying to create the one, lvl 99 character destroys all others WOW game that you want. This is not a solo game based on your skill points. It is an action game based on what you do and how you interact with other people. The game is not tweakable if they make stiff penalties and wipe whole ships out because "it is exceding its roll" "or too many people are complaining". Look, when i first started, all i cared about when PVPing was immediately looking at how old the enemy was, and judging to engage based on that. After flying with people i stopped caring and just played, fought, won, lost, learned and move on. To fly in 0.0 in small squads you need to be a skilled pilot, especially in engineering and Spaceship command, to be able to fly adn fit the ships. This takes an extremely long time 6months to 1 year. Thats alot different tahn pickin up any other game. So skillpoints are extremely important when looking at small gangs 2-30 pilots. After 30+ pilots is when you get lost in the scene of lag and primary death. So SP is important, but flying with experienced pilots is as important. Its a balance With regards to PVP, there are 2 types, speed and non speed. Most pilots should fit an MWD and end there, there should never be a discussion. Once you get more advanced and develop a sense of tactics ships, without MWD's can be effective. If they nerf speed, only 1 race would have any chance of going fast, where as quite a few ships can be made to move moderately fast. So instead of multiple types of fits for ships, depending on situation you can only fit tank/cap because there is nothing else to work with. It narrows the possiblities instead of bringing acceptable gameplay changes. Since it doesn't occur to most new pilots they don't need to fill up on hardners and AR/SB's you have this extremely large class of cannon fodder, that simply can't get it thru there heads that maxing out your shield/armor resists is the best way to go. Hopefully CCP doesn't cave into the crying by making huge speed cuts like they did with the dictor which is just ridiculous. 10% would have been fine and easily placed them between inty's and HAC's. Instead i have sceen drakes move faster its just pathetic I concur and would like to add that the only people who cry that nanoships are overpowered are generally those who can't fly them. Nanoships require much player skill to fly and die at the first mistake, they are probably the most unforgiving ships to fly.
Refazed R A G E	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:30:00 - [376] Originally by: Radioactive Babe ... Me = PVE fit, large drones only , him = pre nerf fit.... caught me deep in armour and helped the npc's. ... He reads but he does not understand (and he also attempts epeen waving .... "me>you"). I have said on several occasions that nanos are not invincible, just a LOT closer to it than every other ship. ... The thing is, it takes NO planning to make a nano gang (95% of which are cookie cutter setups) ... however it takes quite a bit of planning to deal with them (especially if there is no-one available with minnie cruiser 5) ... I am not talking about a single or even a couple of them, I am talking about gangs of them, there are many corps/alliances that fly in nano gangs Quote: The dictor nerf screwed up an entire ship class. it went from being a 'decent useful 50-100M investment' to a 'don't bother unless you got an isk tree' type ship. Sabre was overpowered, they nerfed the whole class when they should have just knocked it into line with the others. I will reiterate, you did something wrong to lose your Domi to a lone destroyer class ship. Its not the sabre's fault you didn't bother fitting a single neut and different types of drones while ratting in 0.0. Sounds more like poor planning on your part mixed with a bit of not paying attention then anything. Dont be an arrogant prig. My e-peen doesn't need to be waved to you and I understand your statements just fine. I will ask this in a more direct question. Why should I or my gang lose to another player or players when they don't put the effort into the engagement that i(we) have? Nano-gangs and ships take tons of sp/isk/pilot personal skill to pull off. Are they overpowered? maybe at the high end. I just don't want to see speed tanking become only a rich man's toy like dictors have. and most sabre's were not overpowered. They died like mad. If ccp really gave a shat about knocking the very powerful 9k sabre setups down they would have nerfed the rigs and implants. otherwise a full t2 sabre went 4.9k with pretty good skills and cost about 50M to buy and fit. Hardly overpowered. Now a t2 fit stabber goes faster for much less isk. That doesn't even address the rest of the dictors' pathetic abilities after the nerf.

CCP Prism X C C P	Posted - 2008.01.02 20:44:00 - [377] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 20:44:21 Been meaning to post this forever but I've been busy. Assuming that difference of opinion equates ignorance on behalf of the other party...totally ftl Apologies to anyone who posted reasonable opinions and suggestions here, I didn't read them. I'm sorry for being brutal but you're talking about someone who's taught me more and repaired more of my fallacies than anyone else I've met in EVE. You might want to consider the difference between an honest personal opinion, and argument and blatant dogma... and perhaps how to convey the difference in text. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2008.01.03 09:15:00 - [378] Edited by: Jallem Sims on 03/01/2008 09:16:12 you might find this was started after the strange explaination during a live dev blog. I am sure the has been many good things done behind the scenes that the user base are not aware of. However, when this speed nerf was introduced on the test server, no one was listening, then the live dev blog just showed the lack of thought that went into this nerf to interdictors. on topic to the now unbalanced game, one ship has been highlighted time and time again. This ship has suddenly being used due to the removal of the speed to interdictors (one of the few ships that can be used to catch a nanofag). However, as these pilots highlight, tactics are still the best opptions, and the will always be away. However the options were reduced after the speed nerf and the result of the recent increase in usage of nano hacs has highlighted this. The users/player community had expressed this before and straight after, but nothing has been done. Its fine standing up to this thread to highlight what you have, however we must learn from mistakes... not hide away and hope this will go. As developers you need to listen to the people playing this game, from all areas, to the noobs to the high SP players... all are saying the same thing. The really sad thing, this could have been delt with so well, with a good explaination and understanding the the problem you felt the was.
Caldrion Dosto Svea Rike Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.03 10:19:00 - [379] Quote: Apologies to anyone who posted reasonable opinions and suggestions here, I didn't read them. I think your main problem is this Prism. It¦s not just whine without reason, take a look and you¦ll see.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2008.01.03 10:44:00 - [380] Obviously this guy doesnt understand that an interdictor is an ownedge interceptor and needs to go fast,this is very sad. Signature removed. Contains no Eve content. Navigator ([email protected])
UGWidowmaker Caldari Setenta Corp	Posted - 2008.01.03 11:24:00 - [381] maybe its time to introduce webifying bubles ? OMFG I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Dark-Rising	Posted - 2008.01.03 18:20:00 - [382] Originally by: UGWidowmaker maybe its time to introduce webifying bubles ? /signed --------------------------------------------- [Video]The Inquisition I - Swift Justice
Karlemgne Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2008.01.03 20:05:00 - [383] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Virtuozzo 1. It is not up to players to decide how a feature or mechanism is intended, while the game is posed as player driven, it is not player managed. Wrong. A successful MMO, once live, is designed and altered on the micro level through a combination of community and developer input. While the developers have the absolute tyranny of ownership of the code / servers, ignoring the will of the playerbase results in... well, SWG. There has to be give and take. As someone who has worked in the video game industry and on MMOs specifically let me say to you--WRONG. The players input is mildly important, in the sense that a company is probably not going to change the game in a way that makes a lot of people quit the game. You might argue SOE did this to SWG. You'd be wrong though, as they were responding to a mandate from Lucas Arts which basically stated "institute the NGE or we revoke the license and SWG shuts down." Other than that, the job of the devs is to update the game with new content and balance. So, for instance, when I was playing EQ2 SOE nerfed the raiding community by making it impossible to set up a macro that would enable you to un-equip all of your items to avoid the repair costs on epic gear. Everyone in the raiding community complained and hated the idea. SOE realized they needed the gold sink more than they needed the small raiding community to be 100% happy. The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:01:00 - [384] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 21:18:18 Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/01/2008 20:44:21 Been meaning to post this forever but I've been busy. Assuming that difference of opinion equates ignorance on behalf of the other party...totally ftl Quite true but we don't really know what goes on in all your (devs/game designers) heads. We assume you're intelligent, well meaning, and well organized.... It would be, truly, outstanding, if a dev could write a blog on the decision making process for changes to the game mechanics. Having an opportunity to understand how CCP goes about making key changes, what the approval/review process is, and what TQM (quality management) type reviews are done AFTER the changes are taken live would go a long way to getting the more paranoid posters to relax. CCP this is not the nerf you are looking for...
MasterEnt	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:06:00 - [385] And just because your company did it that way.. does not mean they did it right.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:20:00 - [386] The speeds aren't the headache, its their relative invulnerability to damage. Too fast to track, too fast for explosive damage, fast enough to LOL at even the best named webifier if it were to lock on. From a tactical perspective, they're hardly powerful enough to be gamewrecking, but from a strategic standpoint, they're nigh invulnerable reconaissance and gank craft. While I salute everyone here with means of killing them, consider this. What other breed of vessel requires such arcane and specific methods to lock down and destroy? It goes beyond the traditional logic of rock-paper-scissors to igneous rock-$30 a sheet glossy photo paper-stylist trimming shears. There's a line between a ship that can be trapped by every means available and a ship that can only be caught when the gang comprises a specific make up, when the moon and stars are in the right alignment, and god himself blesses your dictor bubbles.
Professor Perplex	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:25:00 - [387] i really dont understand this change in dictors. i dont understand the reasoning behind the changes. how was the dictor overpowered ??? i mean, in a fleet or small gang fight both sides have them. both flew them in various strategies at the high speeds... how was this bad ? i really dont understand :( now that changes have been made shouldnt the dictor get better tankage ? take and give. or is the idea behind them to be a pure isk sink?
Professor Perplex	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:31:00 - [388] Edited by: Professor Perplex on 03/01/2008 21:32:20 double
Flaming Butterfly	Posted - 2008.01.03 21:31:00 - [389] Edited by: Flaming Butterfly on 03/01/2008 21:36:00 There is a decision making process? I though GM's just loaded a Jovian superfreigher with 1 of every mod and ship in the game, self destructed it and whatever survived needed to be nerfed. That Zulupork looked at the ship in EFT, looked at setups posted on the forums, and decided it wasn't the 2 poly carb, 2-3 odj II that create insane ship speeds, he decided the interdictor was the problem. Never mind the 9000km vaga that can't hit anything or the evil bastage sacrilege pushing 5000m/s with weapons that always hit and sustainable tank or silly **** like nano- eagles, cerbs, and zealots. Get rid of the insane speed bonuses from poly/odj and the problem is solved.
Marus Safeld Caldari Trojans Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:00:00 - [390] Edited by: Marus Safeld on 04/01/2008 00:00:47 Originally by: Karlemgne The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl Rofl... that "small community of 0.0 alliance" are THE ONLY ONES that use Interdictors. (They don't work in low sec or empire just in case you don't know.) All of them know how interdictors tick and that their only means of survival are speed. The reason for that thou is a fundamental design flaw of the ships they are based of: Destroyers. However, lately CCP Dev's tend not to look at the bigger picture at all. It seems more like they pick a random forum complaint about a ship or module and then "fix" it. They are currently suffering from a serious mission shift syndrome that, if not countered, could cost them a very important part of their player base. You're saying 0.0 dwellers are a minority in the game but do you realise that they are the heart and soul of the player driven economy CCP is so proud of? It's 0.0 where the majority of ISK flows to. It's 0.0 where the high end ores come from. It's the major power blocks who run production and invention at large scale to fund their operations. At the moment all that CCP is doing is impairing 0.0 game play. Changed module sizes to "fix" mineral compression, nerf of carrier hauling capabilities to force people into using a T2 ship that noone wanted, proposed nerfs to fighter deployment of carriers... the list goes on. If you're so familiar with game development, then could you pretty please tell me where CCP is heading? What kind of game do they want? What are their visions? In the end, it's all about money. If they can make more money by turning Eve into Sim's 45,000AD then they'll do that and if they do it well, there will be people playing it. It wont be the same game nor the same people playing it thou. And it wont happen for ballance reasons but for plain cold cash!
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:08:00 - [391] Ships can have acceptable balance with and without high speeds. The main difference is the fun factor. It's more fun to play a game that allows, not forces, not limits, but gives the opportunity to enjoy speed.
Skaz Minmatar	Posted - 2008.01.04 00:29:00 - [392] Originally by: Marus Safeld Edited by: Marus Safeld on 04/01/2008 00:00:47 Originally by: Karlemgne The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl Rofl... that "small community of 0.0 alliance" are THE ONLY ONES that use Interdictors. (They don't work in low sec or empire just in case you don't know.) All of them know how interdictors tick and that their only means of survival are speed. The reason for that thou is a fundamental design flaw of the ships they are based of: Destroyers. However, lately CCP Dev's tend not to look at the bigger picture at all. It seems more like they pick a random forum complaint about a ship or module and then "fix" it. They are currently suffering from a serious mission shift syndrome that, if not countered, could cost them a very important part of their player base. You're saying 0.0 dwellers are a minority in the game but do you realise that they are the heart and soul of the player driven economy CCP is so proud of? It's 0.0 where the majority of ISK flows to. It's 0.0 where the high end ores come from. It's the major power blocks who run production and invention at large scale to fund their operations. At the moment all that CCP is doing is impairing 0.0 game play. Changed module sizes to "fix" mineral compression, nerf of carrier hauling capabilities to force people into using a T2 ship that noone wanted, proposed nerfs to fighter deployment of carriers... the list goes on. If you're so familiar with game development, then could you pretty please tell me where CCP is heading? What kind of game do they want? What are their visions? In the end, it's all about money. If they can make more money by turning Eve into Sim's 45,000AD then they'll do that and if they do it well, there will be people playing it. It wont be the same game nor the same people playing it thou. And it wont happen for ballance reasons but for plain cold cash! This should be in another thread but here goes anyway, CCP does seem to be a bit lost in their balancing. Apparently picking things out at random and "balancing" there hasn't been an overall picture stated...ever. So I'm kindof lost as to how CCP knows what they are balancing things against. It seems to me to be a classic example of thinking "locally" while their actions and changes have effect globally (I can't believe I'm using that phrase) What I'd like to see, but CCP isn't obliged nor likely to do because of the effort that would go into it, is a more detailed list (like the patch notes but more detail) of the reasons underlying some of these changes which are changing gameplay that has remained unchanged for....well forever. That would most likely curtail threads like these - - PINK PINK PINK PINK
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:20:00 - [393] Originally by: Karlemgne As someone who has worked in the video game industry and on MMOs specifically let me say to you--WRONG. The players input is mildly important, in the sense that a company is probably not going to change the game in a way that makes a lot of people quit the game. Your Dev Alt arn't you? And while we are realising this, it seems clear you must work as a Dev on some game... WoW? Cause you have classic Dev Sydrone; 'I am God'. Changes happen to improve the game, taken from the feed back from people that are consistantly testing and evaluating it... THE USERS! Not some ad hoc Dev ingenious spark of intellegence... from listening and understanding the problems from market research. Originally by: Karlemgne The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl This is been countered enough for you to realise now, that this small community keeps everything running. And if you could get out of the comforts of empire and looked at the major selling point that CCP uses it's self, the politics and player driven alliances that create battles which involve huge fleets engaging each other.... IN 0.0! Back on subject Has anyone noticed the huge increase in Nano Hacs? Oh these are good ships to fly, but they used to have a counter.... Dictors! But now that has gone, engaging a nano fleet is interesting. but often if you set up a fleet to counter, the nano fleet of hacs reaproach the gate and jump then log or run.... and is understandable as these ships cost a lot to set up! still its about creating new tactics, to counter this new growing unbalance. Speed will still be there, what ever you nerf, just the was more counter balances to it... Those that complain about the super fast pilots, remember, they prob have no tank, or limited dam dealing. There trained for that one role, as a super dam dealer has trained to hit hard! This thread was about a series of nerfs, some with no reasoning behind it.... and one nerf that has created more unbalance in the game. Created a class of ship that people spent a lot of time (i concider a month a long time to train for just one ship type mod, that does just one job) go the same way as its t1 counter part.... and infact worse, as now everyone will train for the Heavy Interdictor not the interdictor (sphere launcher etc). The question everyone realy wanted to know was why. they got was a 'i don't know' response from someone that clearly either is unaware of this game mechanic he has tweeked or has had some bad experiances. Anyway... still no response... or understanding from CCP, except from a dev supporting his friend \o/ Did he ask you for a favour :p
Reacz Caldari Empirius Enigmus Navy Insurgency	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:29:00 - [394] Originally by: Jallem Sims Originally by: Karlemgne As someone who has worked in the video game industry and on MMOs specifically let me say to you--WRONG. The players input is mildly important, in the sense that a company is probably not going to change the game in a way that makes a lot of people quit the game. Your Dev Alt arn't you? And while we are realising this, it seems clear you must work as a Dev on some game... WoW? Cause you have classic Dev Sydrone; 'I am God'. Changes happen to improve the game, taken from the feed back from people that are consistantly testing and evaluating it... THE USERS! Not some ad hoc Dev ingenious spark of intellegence... from listening and understanding the problems from market research. Originally by: Karlemgne The same, I am sure, is happening here. CCP thinks that overall balance requires a nerf to dictor speed, and the fact that the small community of 0.0 alliance, and the even SMALLER community of dictor pilots doesn't like this nerf matters very little. -Karl This is been countered enough for you to realise now, that this small community keeps everything running. And if you could get out of the comforts of empire and looked at the major selling point that CCP uses it's self, the politics and player driven alliances that create battles which involve huge fleets engaging each other.... IN 0.0! Back on subject Has anyone noticed the huge increase in Nano Hacs? Oh these are good ships to fly, but they used to have a counter.... Dictors! But now that has gone, engaging a nano fleet is interesting. but often if you set up a fleet to counter, the nano fleet of hacs reaproach the gate and jump then log or run.... and is understandable as these ships cost a lot to set up! still its about creating new tactics, to counter this new growing unbalance. Speed will still be there, what ever you nerf, just the was more counter balances to it... Those that complain about the super fast pilots, remember, they prob have no tank, or limited dam dealing. There trained for that one role, as a super dam dealer has trained to hit hard! This thread was about a series of nerfs, some with no reasoning behind it.... and one nerf that has created more unbalance in the game. Created a class of ship that people spent a lot of time (i concider a month a long time to train for just one ship type mod, that does just one job) go the same way as its t1 counter part.... and infact worse, as now everyone will train for the Heavy Interdictor not the interdictor (sphere launcher etc). The question everyone realy wanted to know was why. they got was a 'i don't know' response from someone that clearly either is unaware of this game mechanic he has tweeked or has had some bad experiances. Anyway... still no response... or understanding from CCP, except from a dev supporting his friend \o/ Did he ask you for a favour :p What you talking about? I'm sitting about 10 foot from 30 odd devs and they aren't just god, they the creators of the Universe, destroyers of evil and haters of all things bug submission related. I should know, they haven't fixed any of my bug submissions yet, instead they say 'This option isn't avaiable in this build, lolz' and close the submission. :(
Jakus Cemendur Caldari The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.01.04 10:42:00 - [395] Originally by: Reacz What you talking about? I'm sitting about 10 foot from 30 odd devs and they aren't just god, they the creators of the Universe, destroyers of evil and haters of all things bug submission related. I should know, they haven't fixed any of my bug submissions yet, instead they say 'This option isn't avaiable in this build, lolz' and close the submission. :( Or "Cannot reproduce"
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2008.01.04 12:20:00 - [396] For those of you who still claim to "not understand the logic" behind any up coming nano nerf.. I say again, remember back in the pre-nerfed WCS days? People could disenage at will because they stacked wcs. It was nerfed heavily to be not viable in pvp to use wcs. Fights without risk is not what Eve should ever be about. This is the main problem with nano setups. It's a reason why people are willing to equip these ships with billion isk mods and use them in pvp.. they know it's pretty much immune to damage, and when things go bad, they will be able to escape risk free. How often do you see people using billion isk modules on non-nano setups? Almost next to nil. Besides this major imbalance of providing low risk "run when i want" pvp.. The other major imbalance is that speed is a form of tank. It should be viable. It shouldn't be clearly better than all other tanking forms. I understand it's annoying to have your skillset, risk investment in rigs and implants focused on nano.. then have it nerfed. The history of eve has always been evolving. Gankgeddon with non stacked heatsinks.. nerfed. Crazy ECM on every ship.. nerfed. Nano BS.. nerfed. NOS.. nerfed. Damps (TD lol).. nerfed. All of those changes were needed. But the way CCP went about on some of those recent nerfs were wrong.. nos is pretty useless, so are damps and TD in comparison to other EW platforms. I just hope this nano nerf won't be too harsh and leave speed tanking as a viable tank that reduces incoming damage, but doesn't make it crazy stupid as it is now. As for the dictor issue. Pre-nerfed Sabres were overpowered, the other dictors were fine. Interceptors are the primary tacklers, they have a lot more speed to give them survivability. Their downside is they only lock down 1 target. Dictors being able to lock down many targets ought to be more vulnerable or not be able to dps.. it shouldn't have the cake and eat it too. Otherwise, what's the point of using ceptors? Sabres that obsoletes an entire class of ships, its clearly broken. But it's also stupid to nerf every dictor just because of one. ps. Its the rigs and implants that multiply stats thats the problem.
Hul'ka Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:11:00 - [397] How can you say fight without risk when it’s bilions of isk involved in fitting the ship/pluging in implants and fast ships are most unforgiving for flying? I love speed, but I fly most interceptors and I know how it is easy to lose one if you come close to deal some dmg and suddenly 20km from your target and you some huggin shows up.. Ofc,if you payed your setup 2/3/4 bilions of isk you should have some protection, some space for making mistakes... Training for dictors is way longer then for interceptors and as such you should be able to fly something that is higher in class, not just the same but bigger. Don’t forget, dictors can’t bubble in lowsec/empire, those are specific 0.0 ships, and they don’t do that much dmg, and they don’t tank if webbed while mwd-ing. T2 fitted Flacatcher went puf in a second while webbed by a t1 fitted rupture. Even his friends weren’t able to warp in in time. How is that overpowered? Yes, Sabre was better, but only for its speed, and don’t forget it’s what we minmatar do.. we like to zoom in and out. Again, problem with sabre was not its pwn speed, but combination of modules/rigs/implants that made it go waaay too fast. And that problem still persists, but now only for other nanoships, that even have some decent tank. Eve is a game that has that famous risk/reward system. It also has time/reward system, but by every thing ZP gets his hands on something that tends to lose on its value. --------- I want to phew phew
Hertford Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:20:00 - [398] My only hope is that someone with a clue and some power is actually reading this thread.
Mag's MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.01.04 13:22:00 - [399] Originally by: Hertford My only hope is that someone with a clue and some power is actually reading this thread. That will be Bob Hope then. Mag's Originally by: Avernus One of these days, the realization that MASS is no longer significant will catch up with you.
KHEN IGNITION.	Posted - 2008.01.04 15:55:00 - [400] Originally by: Zana Kito For those of you who still claim to "not understand the logic" behind any up coming nano nerf.. I say again, remember back in the pre-nerfed WCS days? People could disenage at will because they stacked wcs. It was nerfed heavily to be not viable in pvp to use wcs. Fights without risk is not what Eve should ever be about. This is the main problem with nano setups. It's a reason why people are willing to equip these ships with billion isk mods and use them in pvp.. they know it's pretty much immune to damage, and when things go bad, they will be able to escape risk free. How often do you see people using billion isk modules on non-nano setups? Almost next to nil. Besides this major imbalance of providing low risk "run when i want" pvp.. The other major imbalance is that speed is a form of tank. It should be viable. It shouldn't be clearly better than all other tanking forms. I understand it's annoying to have your skillset, risk investment in rigs and implants focused on nano.. then have it nerfed. The history of eve has always been evolving. Gankgeddon with non stacked heatsinks.. nerfed. Crazy ECM on every ship.. nerfed. Nano BS.. nerfed. NOS.. nerfed. Damps (TD lol).. nerfed. All of those changes were needed. But the way CCP went about on some of those recent nerfs were wrong.. nos is pretty useless, so are damps and TD in comparison to other EW platforms. I just hope this nano nerf won't be too harsh and leave speed tanking as a viable tank that reduces incoming damage, but doesn't make it crazy stupid as it is now. As for the dictor issue. Pre-nerfed Sabres were overpowered, the other dictors were fine. Interceptors are the primary tacklers, they have a lot more speed to give them survivability. Their downside is they only lock down 1 target. Dictors being able to lock down many targets ought to be more vulnerable or not be able to dps.. it shouldn't have the cake and eat it too. Otherwise, what's the point of using ceptors? Sabres that obsoletes an entire class of ships, its clearly broken. But it's also stupid to nerf every dictor just because of one. ps. Its the rigs and implants that multiply stats thats the problem. wise words, I fully agree The Social Impact of EVE ? Originally by: Nyphur I'm hungry and naked. That answer your question?
Kruel Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.01.04 16:42:00 - [401] I LOL'd when I saw the part where Zulu didn't realize the Gall/Amarr recons were affected by recent nerfs. If he's not gonna play the game, he can at least read the ships/modules forum like Tux and Tomb used to. Amarr recon thread is at what... 20 pages now without a dev response? No one in their right mind flies a Pilgrim anymore. And now there's talk of speed being nerfed. Great, increase blob warfare even more! Priorities I guess.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2008.01.04 18:53:00 - [402] Originally by: Kruel I LOL'd when I saw the part where Zulu didn't realize the Gall/Amarr recons were affected by recent nerfs. That's because scripts made RSD's better. Right?
Mazupty	Posted - 2008.01.04 21:50:00 - [403] It seems part of the problem is the win/run situation with nanoships. why not modify the MWD and make it need to be shut down and 'recalibrated' for a few seconds to be able to warp out, the same as cloaks and targetting.
Dr Slaughter Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2008.01.04 22:38:00 - [404] Originally by: Mazupty It seems part of the problem is the win/run situation with nanoships. why not modify the MWD and make it need to be shut down and 'recalibrated' for a few seconds to be able to warp out, the same as cloaks and targetting. or have webbers damp inertia too but at the cost of some cap from the ship doing the webbing. No more... 'got them.. oh dam.. they overshot out of my web range' rubbish anymore. Webbers should 'web' not 'damp engines'... CCP this is not the nerf you are looking for...
SiJira	Posted - 2008.01.04 23:35:00 - [405] i love zulu and hope when zulu makes the game perfect and runs out of good changes to make that zulu should shake things up just to keep the game interesting Trashed sig, Shark was here

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