It is the pervasiveness of {Goons} that troubles me. Largest alliance, so they have big swing in the game. CSM swing, so they "speak for us" then they are in the company so they have control of the game swing.

Doesn't this bother anyone else? People get fired and disbarred as lawyers for conflicts of interest like this.

Further, someone in game mentioned that too many with one mind set can imbalance a game and ruin it. I hope that isn't happening.

Beware the force of perception.

Do you deny that the game has a heavy slant to push people into null sec? Why are they wanting to nerf ABC ores? Isn't the choice to stay in WHs and avoid null sec a prerogative of the customer?
Have to be careful when taking away options.

Getting late here but I am sure you can all find ways that the game pushes and keeps trying to push people into null sec.

Someone was suggesting the other day that null sec should be in the middle of space and the factions at each compass point.

The list of CSMs (I was told two have stepped down since the emergency meeting, anyone got confirmation?

Hypothetical possibility

On page 27

What could have happened is
Goons CEO "Get more people into null sec"
Goon staff of CCP "We remove ore so they must come to null sec! CSM Goons back me up"
Goons CSMs "There is much ore coming from WHs"
Other CSMs "Lies!"

Well said

CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

I can argue that my $15 ($30 actually) spends just like anyone else's and itll be spent elsewhere (An Im sure Im not the only one) when the Goons Destroy OUR game (Given they "dont want to destroy THE game, just YOURS") by making higsec unlivable.

and you guys complain about russians??

Not to mention VILE RAT bots aswell? hahahahh

let's see how goons damage controll this one

evenews24 expose goons RTM/bot ring

I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.

At what point do you think that new players want to go out to 0.0 space?
- Is it when they are incredibly frustrated from not being able to grow in high sec?
- Is it when they can't afford to buy their capital ships when you ruin WHs?
.

Throw newbies in at the deep end and to Sansha space with the ones that drown!

Basically.

Think how many steps CCP have taken to ensure that high sec is safer?
Think how many newbies would hit a warp bubble, die and quit?

Not everyone goes at the same pace, leave options open.

Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

So you want to put the building blocks that would help them step into null sec beyond their reach?

I doubt CCP soundwave is risking ....

CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

Fair enough and let me be clear. I am not saying that Goons are messing with things and pulling puppet strings. I am suggesting there is a conflict of interest and that the possibility for abuse exists.

And this is Eve so that is good....

I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.

so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

Think how many newbies would hit a warp bubble, die and quit?

Not everyone goes at the same pace, leave options open.

Pretty much none, if they were introduced to the mechanic properly (i.e. in their first day/week when they have little to lose). The problem is that highsec forms a false illusion of safety in people, who are then very unwilling to move into what they view as more dangerous space.

Pretty much none, if they were introduced to the mechanic properly (i.e. in their first day/week when they have little to lose). The problem is that highsec forms a false illusion of safety in people, who are then very unwilling to move into what they view as more dangerous space.

running ppl on rails into 0.0 isnt what a sandbox is.
You cant create a sandbox game then ***** when theyre not playing it right.
there IS no right if its a true sandbox, which is what everyone calls this. If you start railing everyone alone level paths you lose the sandbox and turn it into something more akin to WoW. Where you can go where you want but if youve outlevelled an area youre not gonna profit by staying in there.

Please dont put WoW in my EVE. I like the flavor of my EVE as is.

The OP seems to believe the rights of high sec people are being trodden on by 0.0 alliances. To be blunt you have limited options:

1. Start your own alliance and evict some 0.0 members (can't beat em join em...)
2. Present yourself as a CSM candidate for 2012 and fight for the rights of H.S players in that medium
3. Use the advantages of High Sec to stifle 0.0 economies - Identify who your real trade partners are and only trade with High Sec dwellers.
4. Become a High Sec PVP corp and camp the pipes/gates/hubs frequently used by 0.0 alliances in High Sec.
5. Create threads bemoaning the bias exhibited by CCP toward 0.0 and comfort yourself with the warm arms of Cipher Jones embrace.

You can call pornography art. It doesn't make it any better.

I am willing to bet a significant amount of isk that if you pursue "option 6" you will find yourself holding "option 4" after 6 months.

If your intent on holding WH for isk generation why are you so worried about 0.0?

I am not. If one corp had not split from a null sec alliance, I would probably be out there next month. However, I don't see why WHs and HS should be nerfed to death to force people out into null sec.

Fair enough and let me be clear. I am not saying that Goons are messing with things and pulling puppet strings. I am suggesting there is a conflict of interest and that the possibility for abuse exists.

I am not. If one corp had not split from a null sec alliance, I would probably be out there next month. However, I don't see why WHs and HS should be nerfed to death to force people out into null sec.

Please list, right here, right now, 10 nerfs that have hit the WH community in the last 6 months. (That being the period of time that the current CSM has been active)

[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Once you get out into null, you'll see why rebalancing should be on the table.

Once you get out into null, you'll see why rebalancing should be on the table.

I think I have to stop at this point. Not because you have the win argument but because I am repeating myself many times and you still aren't getting what I am saying.


I have already been out there a few times on solo runs. Bubbles are just hell of annoying (that was one of the times I gave up and just hit one to save myself the trip back)

I think I have to stop at this point. Not because you have the win argument but because I am repeating myself many times and you still aren't getting what I am saying.

CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later..

CCP doesn't control what goons do or do not do.
And Goons don't really care about bringing 'pubbies' into 0.0.

If you want more folks in 0.0 you have to accept the so called 'pubbies' as you call them. If you don't then you'll never see much increase in 0.0 population. It is attitudes like yours that keeps many from coming to 0.0. The key is not to kill them off in one fell swoop or betrayal. You allow them to settle etc, then raid once or twice a week. They can still make money enough to make it worthwhile to move to 0.0, and you get to have your pvp fun too.

If you want more folks in 0.0 you have to accept the so called 'pubbies' as you call them. If you don't then you'll never see much increase in 0.0 population. It is attitudes like yours that keeps many from coming to 0.0. The key is not to kill them off in one fell swoop or betrayal. You allow them to settle etc, then raid once or twice a week. They can still make money enough to make it worthwhile to move to 0.0, and you get to have your pvp fun too.

Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

If you think Goons do that every time, you are mistaken. .

ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

If things get too skewed in one direction, it damages the game. The basic premise of a sandbox MMO is to offer something for everybody.

ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

if you want missioners and industrialists to base themselves in nulsec, the large alliances have to offer them incentives to do so.

[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Please list, right here, right now, 10 nerfs that have hit the WH community in the last 6 months. (That being the period of time that the current CSM has been active)

You don't need 10. There are two in discussion that would greatly cripple wormhole life.

1. Removal of ABC ores. As you may or may not know. wormholes are also null. More like deep-null with -1.0 sec status. As a result, wormholes have ABC ores. These are required in wormholes for the primary reason of T3 construction. You should, hopefully, be aware that minerals are required for the gas processing that goes into T3 components and hulls. Due to the logistical difficulties of moving large quantities of anything to and from holes, taking a required component from them would greatly and directly affect T3 production resulting in, without doubt, greater prices for Tengus, Lokis, etc. as some corps would give up bothering while others raise prices to cover the additional expense and headaches.

2. Removal of Ice from high sec. Ice. We love ice. We need ice. One thing wormholes don't have, though, is ice. Our pos' are dependent, like all are, on the fuels obtained from ice. If ice leave high sec, this will directly nerf wormholes by causing a significant increase in the cost of the fuels. As a result, smaller corps will find they can no longer afford to maintain their pos, while larger corps will need to find ways to offset the fuel cost hit. This will, undoubtedly, affect once again the one thing that wormholes do produce that no one else does... T3 ships and components.

It's simple to see, when you step back and look at the different areas of Eve and how they interconnect (as opposed to focusing solely on null, or high sec, etc.) how these changes would result in negative effects rippling throughout the game. The sad part is... they would do nothing to get people into null sec. People that prefer a wormhole frontier style life want nothing to do with the mega-alliance mafia style null sec lifestyle and visa versa. High sec folks like their game a little safer, a little smaller and are happy with the lower risk/reward style they're accustomed to. There are four sandboxes in Eve... high, low, null and Anoikis. If you take the sand out of any one box, people won't decide to go play in a different box. They'll leave their empty box and go home.

Of course you don't have power. I am pretty sure that CCP is laughing at you and your fellow CSM'ers as soon as you leave the room.

Cannot blame them, though.

You don't need 10. There are two in discussion that would greatly cripple wormhole life.

1. Removal of ABC ores. As you may or may not know. wormholes are also null. More like deep-null with -1.0 sec status. As a result, wormholes have ABC ores. These are required in wormholes for the primary reason of T3 construction. You should, hopefully, be aware that minerals are required for the gas processing that goes into T3 components and hulls. Due to the logistical difficulties of moving large quantities of anything to and from holes, taking a required component from them would greatly and directly affect T3 production resulting in, without doubt, greater prices for Tengus, Lokis, etc. as some corps would give up bothering while others raise prices to cover the additional expense and headaches.

2. Removal of Ice from high sec. Ice. We love ice. We need ice. One thing wormholes don't have, though, is ice. Our pos' are dependent, like all are, on the fuels obtained from ice. If ice leave high sec, this will directly nerf wormholes by causing a significant increase in the cost of the fuels. As a result, smaller corps will find they can no longer afford to maintain their pos, while larger corps will need to find ways to offset the fuel cost hit. This will, undoubtedly, affect once again the one thing that wormholes do produce that no one else does... T3 ships and components.

It's simple to see, when you step back and look at the different areas of Eve and how they interconnect (as opposed to focusing solely on null, or high sec, etc.) how these changes would result in negative effects rippling throughout the game. The sad part is... they would do nothing to get people into null sec. People that prefer a wormhole frontier style life want nothing to do with the mega-alliance mafia style null sec lifestyle and visa versa. High sec folks like their game a little safer, a little smaller and are happy with the lower risk/reward style they're accustomed to. There are four sandboxes in Eve... high, low, null and Anoikis. If you take the sand out of any one box, people won't decide to go play in a different box. They'll leave their empty box and go home.

Firstly, people in w-space do have representation on the current CSM. I am a wormhole resident, Meissa spends some time in w-space, and Trebor has alts in a w-space corp. If you wanted more representation, you should have campaigned for me to get a full seat on the CSM during the last election.

As for your issues, nobody is talking about the complete removal of ABC from w-space. CCP suggested that they thought it was not fair for the best ores to be present in lower class wormholes (generally C1-C3), that usually have a direct k-space connection. This has by no means been decided, and your scare tactics about T3 prices rising is just that, a scare tactic. The amount of minerals used in T3 production is miniscule, and many T3s are already being built in empire anyway.

It is also not a given that moving ice to 0.0 would raise prices. We (on the CSM) haven't seen the specifics, but it is likely that mining rates would increase if and when ice was moved. This might result in a *decrease* in ice prices. Either way, ice products are a very small component of your overall POS fuel bill, and I doubt there would be a noticeable effect on T3 pricing.

In general, this CSM is very willing to listen to our experts in various fields. None of the changes are being thought about in isolation.

If the game gets half of its features nerfed, or unbalanced, there's going to be a lot of people upset. This is the problem that Goonswarm does not seem to care

They can't force folks into 0.0 by nerfing other areas of the game. It won't work, never has and never will.

The only real affect anyone can have is to cancel their subscriptions if they aren't happy.

ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

Neither CCP nor the CSM is trying to nerf hisec, they are simply working on the principle that "taking risks should be rewarded." I think almost everyone in the game would agree that that is one of the guiding principles of EVE and should continue to be. It currently applies across the entire game, whether its taking the risk of undocking you officer fit mission running ship, and risking a suicide gank, speculating on the price of minerals, transporting goods through low sec, or bringing out your kickass pvp ship. The more you risk the bigger the reward is. Your officer fit mission ship rakes in more cash than a T2 fit would, the more money you dump into a commodity mean you stand to lose more or gain more, taking that shorter route through low sec means you can do more trips and make more money, but it puts your ship at risk. This principle exists both in hisec, lowsec and nullsec. But obviously it tends to place the rewards slanted towards nullsec because nullsec is where the risks are.

Goons and the other 0.0 alliances gain nothing by forcing you into nullsec, we need you in hisec to fuel our economies. But, I don't think it follows the above mentioned principle if hisec residents can make as much or more isk/hour than nullsec residents can with a vastly increased amount of risk.

Learn to delegate {more} and exaggerate less.

Nerfing 0.0 has forced a lot of folks (and their alts) into hisec. Not sure why the reverse wouldn't hold.

Bad part of that is youre supporting the CSM's efforts to blackmail CCP.
Theres no winning fo us here

Is it funny to anyone else that Mittens gets to troll freely? Is that a part of being CSM too?

It's not blackmail it is plainly laid out in Greed is Good and the leaked Hilmar email. They are not looking at anything but the datastream, to get them to listen to anything else the datastream must drop below their expectations and maintain it for an x period of time, that is only known to them.

The nature of 0.0.

To entice the folks in empire you have to make sure they can sustain their current level of income despite additional ship losses. If you can't do that they won't come.

Or just decrease what their current level of income is. I'm more for shifting the second part of your statement, increasing the "additional ship losses" part of hisec life. CCP seems to be in favor of just outright removing hisec monopolies such as T2 manufacturing, T2 research, certain kinds of ice, etc. Pick your poison.

CCP and the players have had 5 years to get people to live in 0.0
Face the facts, there aren't that many players out there who enjoy that play style.

Beat the players with a stick and it is so much easier to quit the game than try to move into null sec. ;)

Your empty threat doesn't really change that.

Basic Premise:

Most of the wealth of EVE is too easily captured by a few alliances.

Most of the alliances are controlled by only a small number of actual players, compared to the total player base of EVE.

It is too easy for large alliances to hold vast stretches of 0.0 space. It is even easier for these few players to dominate other regions and even lowsec thru the use of alt-corps.

This means that only a few actual players can dominate most of the best parts of EVE, and the vast majority of the player base is cut out of the best parts of the game.

PVE <> PVP. The fittings are different, the play style is different.

It is too easy to make boatloads in 0.0 through macros/botting.

Its seems to me some people who think that nerfing High sec will get more people into null do not get it.

A lot of people in high sec chose not to go into null because they can not be bothered with the crap that comes with it.

Who wants to join an alliance were you have some 14 yr old with a god complex having emo rages every 30 seconds telling you what to do.. yeah that sounds like fun.

Threat? Observation based off the other games I have played.

imo it's the 14 year olds with god complexes who refuse to entertain the idea of working together for a goal.

Threat. An empty one.

... who refuse to entertain the idea of working together for a goal.

Yep.. and they all live in null :)

Since ... this is entirely impossible in high sec or WHs?

Logic:
Theory.
Major & minor premise.

If one of your premises is false, your argument is illogical.

Never said it wasn't entirely possible, nor even inferred it. So your own argument is illogical by your own criteria.

Then you are not communicating with sufficient clarity or lack a point.

... you just have poor reading comprehensiony ...

0/10

Nullsec boy pods out and joins his new alliance, hes given a training plan for his alliance's fleet doctrine, has a few million isk thrown at him, some free frigates, some salvaging destroyers and he's on his way. During his first week he goes along on a strat op. 500 people show up for this fleet and an epic battle takes place as his alliance attempts to take a system from their enemies. Nullboy manages to tackle a few battleships and somehow survive when enemy caps jump in. Nullboy tackles a carrier as allied caps jump in as well, the enemy runs, all except Nullboy's carrier, it dies and nullboy is the hero of the day. Cheering and forum circle jerking abound. He grinds through skills, getting to fly bigger and better ships, and is provided with good fits for both fleet pvp, solo pvp, and pve. He pulls in isk through belt ratting, he hears alliance mates complain that a certain item they need all the time isnt on the market in sufficient quantity when they need it, and they're sick of importing a few at a time when they run out, he hires an alliance jf pilot to haul out a crap load of it and it sells like hotcakes. He now has isk to buy anything he needs, good friends to hang out with, skill and knowledge to fly whatever he wants, and the knowledge that he is important to a large community.

funny thing? My main has had this experience, "he now has isk to buy anything he needs, good friends to hang out with, skill and knowledge to fly whatever he wants, and the knowledge that he is important to a large community." all in highsec

why cant you guys realize to let ppl play the way THEY want to. Like the "sandbox" ppl scream that this game is when its germane to their points in the argument theyre making.

Highboy meets up with his new corp mates after flying 30 jumps to their area of Highsec. He does missions progressing through the levels, training ...

... skills for his battle cruiser. Then his corp is war dec'ed and they realise they need some logistics so he trains up and gets one of those ships. Soon he has a really close little group of friends within the corp made up of his team of logistics fleet. Once they realise the value of EWAR jamming it isn't long before they start roaming into low sec, looking for fights, since, they have now got a taste for PvP.
They lose a lot of ships but they are still a small corp or alliance, unwilling to go out and be slaughtered by the null sec alliances. Yet, somehow they need to finance new ships. It isn't long before they realise that they need a worm hole. They go up in the Classes, from C2 to C3 then they find they just want a static high sec exit and a static C4 or C5. If they get a bad one to farm, they just close it and get a new one.
Raiding in their wormhole begins. No war dec to warn them. They find out that they need a carrier. Our hero the Highboy learns to fly one and thus he can defend the worm hole. More and more of the corp and alliance get T3 and capital ships. It isn't long before some go roaming out of the worm hole into null sec. Worm holes keep closing on them so they find a low sec system and begin raiding out into a null sec system. They recruit more people, they poach corporations and find ones from alliance that break and up and it isn't all that long before their alliance spans a null sec region, worm holes, low sec and high sec.
They constantly get more new Highboys because they always have a presence in high sec.

Your version is exactly the kind of emergent gameplay that would be an ideal, with people getting recruited through a highsec arm and cycling into null when ready to live out there, but rarely works that way. I started highsec carebear, and tried to move to null, and its much harder after living in high for a while... you pick up some bad habits, especially in the area of afking

I must take your post with a pinch of salt. Fatal Ascension recently lost corporations because Goons denied them spoils of war. If -FA- will go that far to make Goons happy, a post is just dust in the wind.

My corp as an example, we have been war dec'ed a number of times and we lost as much as 50% of our pilots to them. However, we developed a strong core, that are seasoned in dying and fighting against larger fleets in guerrila tactics. Not only that but we split into two corps, one full of miners and the other full of PvP interested pilots. From there we made an alliance. Now we have focus and are doing even better.

If it were not for those war dec's we would not be progressing. If it were not for the war dec's we would not have rid of ourselves of the weak links in the corp chain.

Sounds like it is working perfectly to me.

CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.

So you're 15$ or 30$ or even 45$ is worth more than say mine because you choose to play in null-sec? What utter BS. My money is worth the same as yours and just because we play in different areas of the game does not mean one is more important than another. This idea that null-sec is the game of EVE is also BS. Most people that play EVE never go into null-sec, let alone low-sec. CCP's own data shows this. That doesn't mean CCP should concentrate on making high-sec the game of EVE...it just means their are gamers that play EVE differently than those that chose to play in null-sec. Your money does not carry more weight than my just because of where you play in the game of EVE - period!

checks dotlan... funny, we sure seem to control of a region, and I haven't noticed many goons(or any non-FA pilots for that matter) living here. I musta not noticed all those pos that I set up going up with goon corps attached

Your corp was a success, congrats. Unfortunately, those are not as common as some people like to think, and thats because it takes alot of special talents to make a good corp go. Not every corp can achieve that.

Nullsec makes EvE(and by extension CCP) get into the press. There has never been a story about highsec miners in major newspapers, you read about people ripping off nullsec alliances for 900 trillion isk. Our 15$ per account is worth no more than yours, but the impact to the game is more than will ever be generated in highsec. THAT is why the voice of the nullsec player needs to be louder than that of highsec, and that is why it is a good idea to make nullsec a more significant part of the game than it is now, instead of something that 80% of the player base never gets to experience first hand, and dismiss as that place full of jerks and elitists.

I agree and think that high sec should have a region between and including Jita and Amarr, where it is all 1.0 space and even more care-bear than regular space. No tolerance of war declarations and no tolerance of remote repairing from outside the fleet. This would save CCP many subscriptions.
Drawback to living there? You can still be suicide ganked and resources such as belts will be severely depleted. Your corp will be starved out to other space.

does most people will never go there. If CCP suddenly took away high-sec space all this game would have left is 2/10ths of its player base. Because on that day most people would quit playing.

EVE is not null-sec. Scream it all you want, but that changes nothing, because the truth is the truth.

Needless to say, personally I think the philosophy in design should be coming from the basic questions "When we implement this change how will it affect ALL players in the game"... if the answers is positive for everyone, the change should be implemented.

[(get people into existing structures instead of starting their own).

Nullsec makes EvE(and by extension CCP) get into the press.

Speaking of which - Goons

Null sec would have less problems if it wasn't in the news all the time. It is because their voices are already too loud that the number of new subscribers is dwindling.

Time to muzzle the dogs and let people join EVE for the space ships instead of the alliance drama putting them off. They can find out about null sec in their own time.

Doesn't change the truth. The truth is most people that play EVE never leave high-sec and never intend to. No matter what CCP

Its not that I disagree with you here, because I actually don't but I will point out that their is no actual hard evidence to support this.

I suppose its possible a friend brought you in, if thats the case, ask the friend why.

But the problem is this;
.

Actually there is, because CCP's in-house economist Dr. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson has said as much in numerous interviews. He has stated that even though only 20% of the player base resides in low/null sec - they are responsible for 80% of all the ships are destroyed in game.

So the 20% of players are responsible for 80% of the ingame economy. Without that 20% driving the ship sales that are produced by the 80% in empire the 80% of high sec only players would find their economy dies.

So the 20% of players are responsible for 80% of the ingame economy. Without that 20% driving the ship sales that are produced by the 80% in empire the 80% of high sec only players would find their economy dies.

Ok we're going to have a little fun here
Two people have just started playing eve. They've gone through the tutorial, and have started doing L1 missions. Both are in the recruitment channel because running around solo is a bit overwhelming while at the same time kinda dull. One person gets recruited by a nullsec alliance, the other by a high sec mission corp.

Nullsec boy pods out and joins his new alliance, hes given a training plan for his alliance's fleet doctrine, has a few million isk thrown at him, some free frigates, some salvaging destroyers and he's on his way. During his first week he goes along on a strat op. 500 people show up for this fleet and an epic battle takes place as his alliance attempts to take a system from their enemies. Nullboy manages to tackle a few battleships and somehow survive when enemy caps jump in. Nullboy tackles a carrier as allied caps jump in as well, the enemy runs, all except Nullboy's carrier, it dies and nullboy is the hero of the day. Cheering and forum circle jerking abound. He grinds through skills, getting to fly bigger and better ships, and is provided with good fits for both fleet pvp, solo pvp, and pve. He pulls in isk through belt ratting, he hears alliance mates complain that a certain item they need all the time isnt on the market in sufficient quantity when they need it, and they're sick of importing a few at a time when they run out, he hires an alliance jf pilot to haul out a crap load of it and it sells like hotcakes. He now has isk to buy anything he needs, good friends to hang out with, skill and knowledge to fly whatever he wants, and the knowledge that he is important to a large community.

Highboy meets up with his new corp mates after flying 30 jumps to their area of Highsec. He does missions progressing through the levels, training random skills he thinks he might need, buying what he can with bounties, mission rewards, and selling LP crap. He flies L4s over and over, usually alone, sometimes with a corp mate. Eventually he will have billions of isk. Whee.

Which one is more likely to stay with EVE in the long term. The guy who grinds missions and gets rich, but is pretty much playing solo? Or the guy who participates in a large community, that participates in epic battles and can change the face of the game universe? I'd say Nullboy is sticking around for years to come.

Null sec would have less problems if it wasn't in the news all the time. It is because their voices are already too loud that the number of new subscribers is dwindling

Funny thing about this story; Yeah I read the stories, but about a month or so into the game, six months really, like all other mmos Ive ever played, I realized the likelyhood of me actually getting involved in one of those stories is about as likely as me in real life getting involved in a story that becomes a legend in real life.

You don't even understand what you are talking about.

For one, the biggest Heist so far has been from Hisec. There are way more people in hisec.

But the problem is this;

Alliance gets a hold on good ratting space.

People bot.

People RMT.

But the problem is this;

Alliance gets a hold on good ratting space.

People bot.

People RMT.

it's just not newsworthy.

Its def. not 20% by number of kills, as per the previous QENs.

So then its the value of the ships destroyed.

And last time I checked only the mighty Chribba was allowed to have caps in hisec. So its not driving hisec ship sales.

Biggest heist was Kartoon's sacking of Goonswarm. Both in isk and in assets.
Most botting is done in highsec, it's just not newsworthy.

Spend about 5 minutes on a few bot forums and you will see the vast majority of them live in null.

I don't frequent bot forums.

Funny that you do though.

Why would it be funny?

I have often admitted on this site that I visit bots forum. I also visit many RMT sites that sell isk to keep track of the price as that is the best way to see if CCp is being effective at banning bots.

Unlike yourself I research what I'm talking about before shooting my mouth off :)

So yeah, I know for a fact that most people that sell isk back to the RMT sites live in null and that the price of isk via RMT sites has never been cheaper.

Lol.. of course it is :)

Who sells isk to the RMT sites.... oh thats right, it must be the 1 person in mack botting in a ice field and not the 100's of bots in null earning millions of isk ratting bots?

Spend about 5 minutes on a few bot forums and you will see the vast majority of them live in null.

Big alliances electing CSMs run the risk of pushing the game to alliance and null sec, while constantly penalising PvE, WH and high sec players.

Your argument is based on a false premise. The CSM gets to raise issues and provide feedback. They don't get to specify game mechanics, CCP does that.

Just as it was CCP that raised the issue of ABC ores in wormholes and will be the ones to decide if it is an issue that requires a change.

so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

A "plausible" scenario that you invented is the basis of your complaint?

I repeat. The CSM doesn't get to give mechanics or even directions, they raise general issues and provide feedback if requested. This has been stated repeatedly by members of the CSM. If ABC ores get removed from wormholes it will be because CCP consider it an issue.

Lets be realistic. At this point CSM has achieved nothing. Just like the player protests have currently achieved nothing. We are heading towards a decisive confrontation with an out of touch CCP management over resources for the core Eve experience. Until that fight begins and is won then nothing can be achieved really. This game is steering fearlessly towards an Iceburg and unless Hillmar can be convinced to alter course and fund the core game again in a serious fashion then any amount of re-arranging the deckchairs and furniture choices in a lounge is precisely irrelevant.

I think the CSM knows this and I think we know it.

But we should now be unified as comrades on the barricades preparing for the only fight that matters. Divisions and spite between CSM and players of all sides is now pointless.

We either get radically increased resources for Core Eve gameplay and a return to proper full content feature-rich expansions and genuine iteration on abandoned content or this game is going to sink with all hands.

The good people on the CSM are getting ready to fight. We need to get ready to fight too. There isn't going to be any prize for second place in this battle over resource priority.

Posted in another thread, but relevant here me thinks, and by someone who normally hates everything about Goons.

Yep.. and they all live in null :)

Thats an awesome story, but my experience in hiighsec carebear corps(both personal and from friends) is that 90% of the time the corp just implodes under the pressure of the wardec, and highboy either cycles into another highsec corp thats gonna implode under pressure, or quits the game out of frustration.

Take off your Jita-bought tinfoil hats for a second and make up your minds dammit: Are Mittani, the CSM and Goons irrelevant fuckwits with no power whatsover over CCP or are they the Great Enemy of all Pubbiekind, plotting to take away your precious ores and l4 missions?

The OP seems to believe the rights of high sec people are being trodden on by 0.0 alliances. To be blunt you have limited options:

1. Start your own alliance and evict some 0.0 members (can't beat em join em...)
2. Present yourself as a CSM candidate for 2012 and fight for the rights of H.S players in that medium
3. Use the advantages of High Sec to stifle 0.0 economies - Identify who your real trade partners are and only trade with High Sec dwellers.
4. Become a High Sec PVP corp and camp the pipes/gates/hubs frequently used by 0.0 alliances in High Sec.
5. Create threads bemoaning the bias exhibited by CCP toward 0.0 and comfort yourself with the warm arms of Cipher Jones embrace.

However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later.

Nerfing High Sec will not bring them.

A single 0.0 system can support a dozen players at a time, and that's the real problem. Until a system can support hundreds of players at one time you'll never see a significant immigration to 0.0. 0.0 today cannot support a fifth of the population that hi sec can.

Right now we need to show CCP a united front as players, I think we can ALL support the current push which is nothing more that 'Get some developers working on EVE, fix it, and stop letting it stagnate'

Lets get behind them for now, and once EvE is getting the developer attention she deserves, we can go back to fighting over how that attention should be spent.

Oh I don't know , I find his postings rather amusing. His humor is a bit crude I agree, but I think his point is well taken.

Why does anyone play Eve? Certainly not to become a "lick-spittal", "step and fetch it", or "arse kisser" (like Ira keeps hinting).

I think his complaint is that, while the primary theme of Eve is the sovereignty wars in zero space, there is no meaningful way for new pilots to participate in it. It takes the better part of a year for a new pilot to learn the ropes and be vetted and judged worthy of membership in a zero alliance corp, and even then the only position they can play is what Ira termed "ass licking" cannon fodder.

I have to admit that his rather crude description of the situation is essentially accurate. The significant positions beyond "cannon fodder" are for the most part held by a handful of pilots who have acquired their positions through a combination of RMT, botting, and either the fact that they were playing Eve in the early days or were head of some 5000 member online club outside of the Eve game. The metagaming aspect of Eve is actually greater than the game itself and this is made worse by CCP's unwillingness or inability to design around it. This is not good for Eve and is detrimental to attracting new subscribers. The "Moons=Plex=Cap Fleet=Sovereignty=Moons" Syndrome excludes new blood from participating. Once the new subscriber figures this out, he either quits or limits his game play to WH, trading, or industrial activities mostly in highsec.

At this point the brainwashed of the "Dear Leaders" in zero storm in to protest that this is a lie and they sing unending songs to the glory of the rivers of benefits they receive from their masters. All to no avail for the thinking and self respecting of Eve because it is obvious to anyone what their true motive is from a cursory review of the forum. The Zero Space mafia requires grist for the mill...


Que the counter propaganda......

The metagaming aspect of Eve is actually greater than the game itself and this is made worse by CCP's unwillingness or inability to design around it. This is not good for Eve and is detrimental to attracting new subscribers. The "Moons=Plex=Cap Fleet=Sovereignty=Moons" Syndrome excludes new blood from participating. Once the new subscriber figures this out, he either quits or limits his game play to WH, trading, or industrial activities mostly in highsec.
.

Thread cleaned. Please try to post in a constructive matter.

Thread cleaned. Please try to post in a constructive matter.

That GSF were founded on taking those new guys and making them relevant in 0.0?

Honestly, accusing the leader of Goons of not understanding the value of new and casual players in 0.0 is like... similes fail me.

Thank you.

[
What are you thanking him for? It's still a bad thread.

If you think the Mittani's main concern is the "average player" of Eve... You are delusional. There is only room for one "Queen" in the Hive.

Considering the source of your comment and the topic ... I am going to disregard it.

One day, we will have the stats and it will turn out that null sec population is just 10% of game.

Ah so you're just here to rant and not actually discuss anything. That might be why nobody is taking you seriously.

But keep tilting at windmills...and never stop posting.

I wasnt even saying that, I was saying "let ME play the game MY WAY"
Plus, theres no "end game" in a sandbox

TL;DR, short posts.

Goons in:

• Game
• CSM
• CCP staff

= conflict of interest.

[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Thanks, sweetmeat.

In sum, nullsec as it stands currently is laughably broken, and any sensible commentator or nullsec resident knows it - which is exactly why nullsec, in a rage, seized the CSM.

1. Start your own alliance and evict some 0.0 members (can't beat em join em...)

... you should feel bad.

How, pray tell, is this different from w-space? Eviction happens, fights happen, you cannot run sites behind a bubble camp and instantly know if anyone enters local. Also, w-space PvE you have to pay attention (i.e. not easily bottable).

Risk v. Reward, w-space is riskier, the only thing we are immune to is afk cloakies. You, on the other hand, can easily warp off grid before that interceptor that just entered local lands on you (especially given the time it takes to scan out that sanctum...)

Goons are like cancer to an MMO. EvE is so infected with them, its terminal.

No they're more like Lupus than cancer.

It's always Lupus.[

Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.

Yes. When I propose things to help new players it is to help me too because I want:

• More players,
• The game to prosper so there are more developers to improve it
• More people to play with
• More people to join my group

Wow that's the same things Goons want. You should work with us.

Can we separate two things in your minds?

1. There is Goons and what they do in game or out.
2. There is Goons and how they have permeated all aspects of the game, creating a conflict of interest.

I have no problem with Goons in general. My problem is with the conflict of interest and thus this thread.

John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton (1834GÇô1902)
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Charles Caleb Colton (1780 - 1832), Lacon, 1825
"It is said that power corrupts, but actually it's more true that power attracts the corruptible. The sane are usually attracted by other things than power."

Can we separate two things in your minds?

1. There is Goons and what they do in game or out.
2. There is Goons and how they have permeated all aspects of the game, creating a conflict of interest.

[
Well the first one seems kind of obvious and unnecessary to state but the second item is pure paranoid fantasy. Believe me if we had as much power as you think we do nullsec wouldn't have been nerfed to hell and back and supercaps never would have become the I-Win button that they are today. Unless you think we just let those things slide to cover for our real power grab...

{Side note: How are you posting with a character that doesn't exist?}

Haters, Can we get some luv in lowsec..

3. They do not challenge the corporate structure of CCP or make large accusations against CCP without large amounts of prior investigation.

In regards to your accusations of Goons attempting to rule the CSM for their own purposes: CSM 4 and CSM 5 largely ignored the development of 0.0 space.

Regarding your wormhole whine:

Wow, this thread is still going? Come on, you are apparently freaking out over one tiny change to game mechanics. There are plenty of good things coming as well, you need to calm down.

I have done no such thing.

Then you should understand where I am coming from in lack of representation. I am pointing out not only the conflict of interest but the null sec majority.

Mining already sucks. Higher classes get more ore and can sustain larger corps.

I looked at your assumption. Gave a deep sigh and have gone to bed.

(We have statics to C3 and C4, so we won't be affected by this change but I can totally understand how it will royally mess with other miners)

3. Lower quality space lower resources. Higher quality space higher resources. What does this have to do with how boring mining is? We all know mining is terribly boring.

Checked the values of ores which have Zydrine in them? Good luck getting that without Crokite mining

I also think that the CSM needs representation of other aspects of the game to prevent it being blinkered down as single alley, once you turn the behemoth that is CCP.

Any word on the "BIG" Devblog

The current CSM is pretty 0.0 heavy but some of us are pretty knowledgeable about all aspects of EVE. For one thing, myself and Greyscale pretty much invented WH space.

Also, go read this if you want to get a feel for my thoughts on current events.

Anyway, I just spotted this thread. Hi, how can I help?

At least at the moment they have an ISK incentive.

If ABC ores are dropped entirely from worm holes, I would just stop mining. Make more off sleepers anyway.
I doubt I am the only one that would stop.
Basically, Hulks are used much less and probably would stop entirely. The risk vs gain of mining other ores in WHs just isn't there without ABC ores.

Checked the values of ores which have Zydrine in them? Good luck getting that without Crokite mining

2. Minerals come from drone space. Seriously who mines anymore. Just compress in Jita and export.

I have to say, my opinion on Goons has changed dramatically.

I have fought on both sides of many of the wars in Eve and have found one HUGE truth: 99% of Eve players are the same, 99% of propoganda about how the enemy are bad, idiots, terrible people or nerds is rubbish. If anything the most annoying and elitist people in game are the 'Elite pvp' guys who treat Eve as a job.

I used to believe Goons were out to wreck the game for everybody because this is the propoganda spread by alot of people. Yes they scam, lie, cheat and steal, but that is Eve. Only this year have I found myself allied to Goons and Test and the CF and I have to say I have never had so much fun in Eve, they play the game to have fun, to enjoy it and it turns out all my preconceptions were wrong. This coalition is not only the strongest I have been in but the most enjoyable.

I also think that as a general rule what the current CSM and Mittani want is actually a BETTER game, not one that favours any particular faction.

LIke I said, this view is from someone who has been on most sides at one time or another in Hisec, Lowsec and Null life.

I see absolutely NO conflict of interest that wouldnt come from any other CSM member or CCP staff that also play the game, no matter what faction they come from.

1. No one any where has said that ABCs are being dropped entirely from worm holes.
2. Minerals come from drone space. Seriously who mines anymore. Just compress in Jita and export.

(Have been working in RL a lot lately, so I will go back and read the latest posts, then reply to them at a later stage.)

Jenshae Chiroptera > Ice is going to be null sec only soon
Friend > nah they cant do that too many people with hi sec pos's will complain
Jenshae Chiroptera > They also want to remove ABC ore from POS from C1 and C2
Friend > the thing is that would effectivaly kill off half of the playerbase becuase most corps have hi sec and low sec pos's and people wont move to 0.0
Friend > ok, so oif they do that, they should effectivly put ice in wh's
Jenshae Chiroptera > Nope. They are trying to push more people out to null sec
Friend > wont work. people will just quit. they tried that one a few years ago, it failed
Friend > they changed the whole sov mechanic hoping it would encourage smaller alliances to settle in 0.0
Friend > problem was it basically bankrupted the smaller ones becuase the cost is astronomical
Jenshae Chiroptera > Null sec is too small
Friend > null sec is boring same old crap every day
Jenshae Chiroptera > If it was huge, people could covert a cyno ship in, then build a base quietly in someone's back yard. Especially if it worked like WH space
Friend > why you think smaller alliances rent space from the big one?
Jenshae Chiroptera > They rent space because they can't defend themselves?
Friend > they rent it so the big alliance can pay their bill thats how it really works, the big alliance depends on the renters to cover the cost
Jenshae Chiroptera > Interesting. I thought they wouldn't want an alliance growing in their territory
Friend > theres more to this wormhole ore business than meets the eye. the reason goons dont want people in wh's is becuase theres no sov. wormholes are cheap 0.0 basically
Friend > i reckon more people are considering wormholes and the alarm bells are ringing becuase theres less people to defend their space, thats my impression
Friend > the amount of ore in a wh wont affect the amount in 0.0
Friend > so ccp is trying to force people into something that will effectively kill the game

Why link a random log of you and a random person talking about things that no one has said apart from yourself?