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View from 70+ sp player: remove all learning skills from game

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Coors Light	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:04:00 - [61] I am a fairly new character to Eve, and while reading this thread I get the general feeling that those that are against removing learning skills keep using the same mantra "learning skills speed the gain of skill points". I see what you mean by that, however, I think that not having to waste time on learning skills would be a much more welcome method to any new player that wishes to pick up this game of internet spaceships. I do not see the long term benefit to the overall player base by keeping this methodology in place. I do not see what part of the game it enhances or any mechanism that it places in balance. Liberate us from this cruel overlord!
Anell Minmatar Evil Avatar Ltd.	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:04:00 - [62] The logic of the OP and others in this thread is at best silly and at worst outright irrational. Example: Problem: New players quit because they hate long boring training times Solution: Remove Learning skills that decrease long boring training times Does that really make sense to anyone here! The only time any kind of adjustment to the Learning skills makes sense is if CCP is going to boost every single character in the game with a +10 to every attribute. Does anyone really think CCP is going to do that? I honestly think we have better chances of CCP making the newbie ship a battleship before they would give a +10 to each attribute. So instead we are left with the idea that we should remove Learning skills because some players receive bad advice and stupidly train only Learning for 2 months straight (at some point during which) they quit because they are bored of flying/doing only what their character creation skills let them fly/do. So lets say we do it, lets say we remove Learning. Your worried about new players quitting because people are giving them bad advice? Well what do you think will happen when new players who did decide to stick with it suddenly get 40% increased training times. You think they are going to stick around? Especially when they decide that their bloodline is suddenly completely unsuited to whatever their chosen profession is? Personally I'm not sure there is a single thing you could do to skills that would cause more players to quit then this.
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Tyr Zewa nor where there 40 different ship types to try out..... we had frigs, cruiser, battleships.... that's all there was. oh yeah and ofc Amarr indy lvl1 for to fly a bestower :P At release when I started playing (another char), there weren't even Battleships.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:04:00 - [64] Originally by: Zero Target Who in their right mind wouldn't train their learning skills, and as early as possible in the game? As early as possible is not the best advice, as early as practical is better. It is all well and good for an alt to sit in a station and train up learning, and get implants, but genuine new players have to fund all that .. and they may even be tempted to play the game too. I'm not saying that learning skills should not be trained, but rather that with planning and good judgement they are not the evil timesink they are made out to be. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Mighty Dread Minmatar	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:06:00 - [65] It'll come down to how much money CCP can rake in forcing people to invest time into the game skill training to...skill train vs how many potential subscriptions will they loose because people don't want to wait for months to get any kind of foothold in the game. So much of EVE is designed as a slow grind-time sink. Which although can potentially draw out more profits I think eventually it kills the MMO.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:07:00 - [66] In many cases it's more efficient to train up your money making skills before maxing out the learning ones. That way you'll be able to afford better implants sooner. And you'll have more fun as well. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:14:00 - [67] I have them all at 5/5, how would you compensate me for my dedication to the task of bringing them up and the logevity of my character? Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Tank CEO Caldari Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:18:00 - [68] View from 80m sp players: OP idea is stupid. The only reason you have 70m skill points is because of learning skills. Learning skills are a investment for players who don't plan to quit the game any time soon. I would say and this is just a guess that learning skills increase our learning speed by 25%-35% (Just a rough guess) Removing learning skill is just basically nerfing yourself, why the hell would you want to learn slower in the game? Learning skills are even easier to train now that adv learning skills only require lvl 4 requirement, unlike when thy come out back in the day, requireing lvl 5. ------------- Jita is mine.
happomaagi Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:19:00 - [69] Originally by: Anell The only time any kind of adjustment to the Learning skills makes sense is if CCP is going to boost every single character in the game with a +10 to every attribute. Does anyone really think CCP is going to do that? I honestly think we have better chances of CCP making the newbie ship a battleship before they would give a +10 to each attribute. Actually i think that CCP already gave us +10 for all our attributes in the form of learning skills. I havent read their reasoning about their implementation, frankly i just started shortly after they came. The way they gave the shortened skill training times just is bad from the newbies point of view.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:22:00 - [70] Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2008 16:24:12 How about a compromise: Give people two options Either: Create and train a character as per the status quo Or: Create a character as per the status quo, with completed learning skills, but with base stats at 1 rather than 3 (ie: 10 stat points less than the maximum potential of the first option, or 5 less than the classic "5+4"), and with a reduced selection of starting skills (about 100-200k SP worth) New players can then chose either a quick early boost, or long-term advantage, with existing characters effectively already having chosen that long-term advantage. It would probably be fairly easy to think up some RP justification for this, and it would be a real choice: instant short-term gain or long-term payoff. Of course in a year or so, the short-termers would start whining, but... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:37:00 - [71] Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 10/03/2008 16:24:12 How about a compromise: Give people two options Either: Create and train a character as per the status quo Or: Create a character as per the status quo, with completed learning skills, but with base stats at 1 rather than 3 (ie: 10 stat points less than the maximum potential of the first option, or 5 less than the classic "5+4"), and with a reduced selection of starting skills (about 100-200k SP worth) New players can then chose either a quick early boost, or long-term advantage, with existing characters effectively already having chosen that long-term advantage. It would probably be fairly easy to think up some RP justification for this, and it would be a real choice: instant short-term gain or long-term payoff. Of course in a year or so, the short-termers would start whining, but... Having and making a wide variety of choices in this game, assures enough in-game diversity to keep everyone off their mark. The only ones who aren't scared of anyone are the ones who've seen enough combat to know quickly if they're going to win or lose, and they don't care either way. You can smoke a dreadnaught with a T1 cruiser, if that dreadnaught has a fail-fit. The compromise is this - play the game and be happy or find another that makes you happier.
Dirtee Girl Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:43:00 - [72] Originally by: Chith I would personally advocate just buffing all stats to the point where everyone has max learning skills and then reimbursing those points. Faster trains kept, noone ends up getting boned on time already spent. It would require code work to develop a system to redistribute, but that would be a powerful tool for the developers to be able to make some long-needed changes in a variety of areas. I still don't understand what the argument is FOR these skills. this is the solution everybody wins nobody looses * *
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:46:00 - [73] Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 16:46:16 Argument: I suffered through it so you should too = FAIL! Look eve has enough timesinks in it that this "cockblock" to enjoyment that even CCP has stated they regret putting in should be eliminated. There really is a very simple solution. Step 1: Give all characters level 5 on all learning skills. Make it part of the Jovian Expansion as a gift to the lesser species. Maybe that new star goes super-duper-uber-nova and blasts all us us with bamma-lamma-gamma radiation that sets the skills that high. Step 2: Determine the amount of time each learning skill required to train and add it to a time pool. Those characters who trained learning get that bonus time to apply to other skills on demand. Those who didn't train dont get it. So Johnny Fattbutt who sat around for 5 years training up every learning skill and getting oone of every item can now have a bunch of instant skill point boosts he can use or hold for skills coming up. And Jenny Lameass who didnt plan on playing eve for the entire duration of her house mortgage period can have fun training (is training even fun?) to use stuff instead of training to train to use stuff. Step 3: Profit. CCP stop trying to eek out every last ounce of grind/progression/entertainment from of the current set of skills mods ships tools and open up the next level. You are supposedly spec'd out to T10. WTF are you thinking at the current pace of progression? Are you hoping your grandchildren will be programming eve for you? Step 4: Open up macro key bindings for more if not all functions please. Your fanatical devotion to right click menus is going to lead to a slew of carple tunnel syndrome related lawsuits in a few years.
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:52:00 - [74] Originally by: George Techeye Points 1 to 4... Start at the basics. What problem are you trying to solve here exactly? n00b can't jump into a super-ship in his first week? Learning takes too long? For what? To get to what you think of as an end-game? This isn't your first MMO is it?
OwlManAtt Gallente Yasashii Syndicate	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:54:00 - [75] The learning skills are a fun tax. It's immeasurably difficult to be competitive in EVE without putting yourself on an even playing field with everyone else skillwise. It is true that you do not have to train the learning skills, as no modules or ships list them as prereqs, but you will never be competitive if you do not invest at least a few weeks in the skills. Remove the learning skills and give everybody +10 to their attributes to make up for the difference. Sure, you're down some SP, but who cares? Your SP is down in relation to every other oldie's, and newbies no longer need to spend their time paying a fun tax. --- SVP OwlManAtt, Yasashii Syndicate
Scoundrelus Dark Tornado Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:55:00 - [76] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26 The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. This advice was drilled into my head from literally day one of EVE. I actually took the advice and literally sat in a station for like 2 months training up learning skills. You know what? To this day I haven't regretted it. To each his own. ================================================== Hi Mods. Can you please write something in my sig? I wanna be cool too.
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:55:00 - [77] Originally by: OwlManAtt The learning skills are a fun tax. It's immeasurably difficult to be competitive in EVE without putting yourself on an even playing field with everyone else skillwise. It is true that you do not have to train the learning skills, as no modules or ships list them as prereqs, but you will never be competitive if you do not invest at least a few weeks in the skills. Remove the learning skills and give everybody +10 to their attributes to make up for the difference. Sure, you're down some SP, but who cares? Your SP is down in relation to every other oldie's, and newbies no longer need to spend their time paying a fun tax. Competitive to what? To whom? This whole debate has no logical foundation.
Furious Hawk Caldari I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:57:00 - [78] Originally by: Chith We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. Are you on drugs? The point of learning skills is in fact to progress you further in the game, faster. Don't believe me? Go start a new account, and try to train Battlecruisers 5. I got there in 25 days. Lets see how long it takes you.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:08:00 - [79] Originally by: Burnharder Originally by: George Techeye Points 1 to 4... Start at the basics. What problem are you trying to solve here exactly? n00b can't jump into a super-ship in his first week? Learning takes too long? For what? To get to what you think of as an end-game? This isn't your first MMO is it? CCP has stated that they regret putting learning skills in as they are essentially nothing more than a fun tax. Its not my first MMO, but it IS CCP's first MMO, no? You should ask them what they were thinking.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:09:00 - [80] I have this crazy idea. What if we remove ALL skills from the game, and make it a simple "who has more ISK and can find more friends" competition instead ? [/sarcasm] 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:14:00 - [81] Originally by: Akita T I have this crazy idea. What if we remove ALL skills from the game, and make it a simple "who has more ISK and can find more friends" competition instead ? [/sarcasm] I miss the sarcasm, since thats exactly what it is now.
Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:18:00 - [82] Originally by: Furious Hawk Are you on drugs? I am unable to comment. Originally by: Furious Hawk The point of learning skills is in fact to progress you further in the game, faster. Don't believe me? Go start a new account, and try to train Battlecruisers 5. I got there in 25 days. Let's see how long it takes you. Unless some drugs have inadvertently confused me, I'm pretty sure learning skills only affect little numbers on your char sheet making them tick faster. They in fact allow you to use no new modules, ships, equipment, or enable to use any of those to higher ability. Of course, we all know this. I think you sincerely misunderstood the point of the comment and opted for the much more humorous drug talk, though. "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
pyr8t Native Freshfood	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:21:00 - [83] I'm in 100% agreement with the Original Poster and all others who are in support. An enormous gulf exists between new and old players. This disparity is so severe, the gulf so wide, that for a new player to have any hope at being competitive he must put time into learning skills. Anyone claiming leaning skills to be optional are simply delusional. EVE's time-based skills have reached a maddening point and something needs to give. New players are simply at too high a disadvantage....sitting around for months doing nothing while literally learning learning skills is beyond absurd. CCP made a mistake and they've admitted it. Bite the bullet CCP, fix this now. For the sake of new players and old.
Hohenheim OfLight Pegasus Mining and Securities R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:27:00 - [84] I have 34 million sp, I don't think this is an issue, I personally don't even have the learning skill trained beyond lvl3 and it was not until i had played for 3 months that I even relay pushed the learning skills, Even now i Prob have them at advanced lvl 3 or 4, but i did not rush to do it and it was not my only goal. At the end of the day if you not the type of player who can wait for the learning, skills to train then eve is not for you, there is a lot of sitting round and doing nothing and training many others skills. If you don't have the patients in the first place eve is not for you. The devs don't want players who get board easy, as eveyone would play eve for 3 months get board and leave, its better for eve if the players are in it for the long haul. In my Time i have seen many threads like this and nothing ever comes of them, to change the skill system now would change it so much as to complete unbalance the game, Some one do me a favour and go work out how long it would take to train the titan skill with out any learning skill trained as opposed to having learning skills? The devs have programmed in certain expectations and to remove learning skills is a bigger job than you think. To remove leaning skill and do nothing would mean that it would take for ever to train rank 14 skills, but to remove them and give every one +10 attributes would mean than Rank 1 skills would train much faster than planned, changing the gaming experience. The status quo will remain you can count upon that. ---------------------------------------------- Is mining for a hel mad? or just ambishus?
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.03.10 17:35:00 - [85] I could agree with this if you let us rebalance our stats, mine are horrible. All of my characters have maxed (fully, or advanced to 4) learning skills. 2 of them are 70+m sp. They NEED maxed learning and +5s to compete with newer characters who were able to min/max their attributes a lot more effectively. But you have a good idea, lets punish the older playerbase in order to bring in new players that quit, on average, after 6 months.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:12:00 - [86] Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight I have 34 million sp, I don't think this is an issue Of course not. Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight At the end of the day if you not the type of player who can wait for the learning, skills to train then eve is not for you, there is a lot of sitting round and doing nothing and training many others skills. Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight If you don't have the patients in the first place eve is not for you. The devs don't want players who get board easy, as eveyone would play eve for 3 months get board and leave, its better for eve if the players are in it for the long haul. I assume the devs want to make money. Getting new players and KEEPING new players means more money for the devs. If Chrysler could sell a 1970 vehicle with 12 mpg city as the 2008 model and get away with it they would, every business would. You must upgrade improve and enhance if you want to stay competitive and grow your business. CCP has to do that too. Just because Gramps walked two miles to school Up-hill BOTH WAYS does not mean everyone should still have to. Get on the bus.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:15:00 - [87] Originally by: Big Al But you have a good idea, lets punish the older playerbase in order to bring in new players that quit, on average, after 6 months. But you have to ask WHY are new players qitting on average after 6 months?
happomaagi Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:16:00 - [88] What do learning skills give? Faster training times. And it is needed with more ships, skills and mechanics introduced. But this could be achieved basically just by boosting base attributes for everybody. (there might be some complications, but this is hardly a discussion of the specifics but the principle) Strategic choise benefiting long term planning? Basically it boils down to giving newer players an unnecessary vexing choise whether they will be still playing after six months time. Personally i dont see any value in this. I'm still here after two years, but it doesnt change the fact that choosing whether to train learning and to what level was a frustrating choice in the first three months or so. I cant see why players should know how long they will be playing the game. After reading arguments in this thread and from personal experience, i cant think other arguments for them, atleast not straight away. The problem i see with learning skills is that it gives a big chunk of skills to train for the new players that doesnt in anyway enhance their gaming experience when they should be getting hooked to the game. It must be very exhilarating to train 6 weeks of skills to get benefit in half a year or more. There are ofcourse other long term plans to make, training capital ships or investing in a T2 BPO for example. But those choices give more meaning, fun and substance to the game, when learning skills give next to nothing.
X99 Z990	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:17:00 - [89] Originally by: George Techeye Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight I have 34 million sp, I don't think this is an issue Of course not. Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight At the end of the day if you not the type of player who can wait for the learning, skills to train then eve is not for you, there is a lot of sitting round and doing nothing and training many others skills. Originally by: Hohenheim OfLight If you don't have the patients in the first place eve is not for you. The devs don't want players who get board easy, as eveyone would play eve for 3 months get board and leave, its better for eve if the players are in it for the long haul. I assume the devs want to make money. Getting new players and KEEPING new players means more money for the devs. If Chrysler could sell a 1970 vehicle with 12 mpg city as the 2008 model and get away with it they would, every business would. You must upgrade improve and enhance if you want to stay competitive and grow your business. CCP has to do that too. Just because Gramps walked two miles to school Up-hill BOTH WAYS does not mean everyone should still have to. Get on the bus. Eve is the kind of game where you walk 10 miles up to school on a mountain and get raped by bears on the way then get belted by your teacher for being late. Besides, they dont have to train learning skills. But out of choice most people would want their skill training to go faster.
Jaabaa Prime Minmatar Quam Singulari Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:18:00 - [90] First off, a few facts: 1) Implants first added as agent rewards (Patch 1215, September 2003) 2) Advanced learning skills added, and they required level 5 of the basic to train (Patch 1755, September 2004) 3) Requirements for advanced learning skills dropped from 5 to 4 (Patch 27912, November 2006) So, when I started, advanced learning skills and implants weren't even in the game (May 2003), but guess what, after almost 5 years of playing I have enough skills to enjoy some of the more advanced aspects of EVE. When a new player joins they aren't forced to train cybernetics or the learning skills, its optional. And TBH, five years from now, they all should have more points than I have currently because they have these options from the start. A new player doesn't really need learning skills, they need to learn the basics, indeed learn the game ! Once they have their skills up to level 4, they should have a pretty good idea if they want to continue playing and then they should train learning skills before working on the longer level 5 skills. IF CCP were to remove learning skills, what would we get to replace it ? All attributes increased by 10 ? You do realise that this would also apply to the older players too don't you ? What would the older players get to replace the lost SP, all the training time invested (= RL cash) into skills of their choice ? Not a simple SP for SP calculation, but the equivalent SPs for the same time investment. EVE is all about choice, and you can choose whether or not you want to learn these skills to get that advantage, nobody is forcing anyone to train them. There is no instant gratification in EVE, and nor should there ever be, not even when learning learning skills. -- [url=http://tri.exanimo.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=2598] [/url]

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