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View from 70+ sp player: remove all learning skills from game

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Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:37:00 - [1] I forget who was commenting, but at the end of the tourney the stereotypical 'if you could change eve, how would you' question came up. Best response I've ever heard: remove all learning skills. We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame. If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone. I don't doubt that this has been posted before. Maybe this time it can get some traction and be included with the next patch (the one after march 11th). "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:43:00 - [2] Originally by: Chith I forget who was commenting, but at the end of the tourney the stereotypical 'if you could change eve, how would you' question came up. Best response I've ever heard: remove all learning skills. We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame. If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone. I don't doubt that this has been posted before. Maybe this time it can get some traction and be included with the next patch (the one after march 11th). What's the point? If you want to invest in faster SP acquisition, you can, if you don't want to, don't. N00bs start the game with loads more SP's than we did when we started out in 2003.
Miss Anthropy The Greater Goon GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:45:00 - [3] This is a good idea actually. Learning skills probably do more to turn people off the game than anything else. Who wants to play a game where, in order to learn new skills, you have to learn skills that help you learn skills faster? This is dumb and is a huge time sink on new players who just want to get into the action.
Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Burnharder What's the point? If you want to invest in faster SP acquisition, you can, if you don't want to, don't. N00bs start the game with loads more SP's than we did when we started out in 2003. The point, as I stated, would be to not treat interested and driven new players like 'N00bs' and make them sit around for a few months waiting for the ability to grab faster SP. It reeks of some kind of initiation period that serves little purpose other than to drive folks away. "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Miss Anthropy This is a good idea actually. Learning skills probably do more to turn people off the game than anything else. Who wants to play a game where, in order to learn new skills, you have to learn skills that help you learn skills faster? This is dumb and is a huge time sink on new players who just want to get into the action. You don't have to, you choose to. This is a red herring. It's nothing to do with learning skills, it's to do with learning speed.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:46:00 - [6] I agree with the poster above me. No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills. So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills.
Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:51:00 - [7] Originally by: Christari Zuborov I agree with the poster above me. No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills. So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills. So then, switch it up. What is gained in the game by keeping these skills around? Are you saying that it's ok to create a system that encourages people not to stick around? That's pretty bizarre. "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
Barzam	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Christari Zuborov I agree with the poster above me. No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills. So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills. Sure, this may be true. Nobody's holding a gun to your head. BUT. People come into this game feeling left behind by older players in the skill-game. They feel that they have no chance of catching up. And what do they get as a solution to their question? "Roll Caldari Achura. Train all learning skills to 5, advanced to 4, get +5 implants" A surprising amount of players embark on exactly this 'suggested' road, and burn out completely because they can't even fly a cruiser after 2 months of training. What the hell kind of fun is just paying subscriptions and reading forums for 2 months just to feel you have a fighting chance in the game? Agreed. This isn't a problem once you gain some understanding of the game and learn that total skillpoints aren't as incredibly important as they seem - but to a new player this is everything and learning skills may seem like the only way they have to 'catch up'.
Anell Minmatar Evil Avatar Ltd.	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:59:00 - [9] Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days. Learning also makes it possibly to level the races out a bit and remove the stain of playing a certain kind of skill set on some bloodlines. Remove learning and it will become common place for combat characters to only be of a certain race and industry to only be of another race. I think thats a pretty lousy way to go, not to mention giving a massive boost to folks who already have high sp since now it will take even longer for other folks to reach comparable levels. I freely acknowledge that a lot of people new to the game get turned off by spending a month training learning skills. However, I also think that 1) a massive amount of those people would get turned off to EVE anyway once they start seeing what it would take to fly something as simple as a HAC, 2) My corp has mostly new players and as far as I know all of them trade off training their learning skills with other skills they want to have. So for the most part its a non-issue.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 14:59:00 - [10] Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26 The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

skuko Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:00:00 - [11] Edited by: skuko on 10/03/2008 15:02:48 this is my main and i have 8m SP. chith, i see your point, but on the other hand, i don't see anything wrong with the current system. i've nowhere to rush, i don't regret one second of training the learning skills (basic 5, advanced 4). for me, eve is a long term game, so i'm fine with investing roughly 2 months into training up learnings. what i did (and what my advice to newbs is), trained to cruiser and supporting skills and hung around level 2 missions for that period, acquainted myself with the game and mechanics, talked to people about various aspects and this time served me for making up my mind, what i really want to do in this game. so basically it gave me the time to think it through and not to rush into something i would regret... all in all, i think the system is fine.... P.S. been playing about half a year now... edit: gremmer :P
Vincent Lionhart	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:01:00 - [12] Puts on flame suit Alright 'tards. And I am referring to the people who say learning skills are a choice. When I first started out EvE, people kept encouraging me to get learning skills. After looking at attributes, I realized how useful they were as well. Back then, Tier 2 training skills were not out yet so getting training skills to lvl 4 was all we needed. Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life. In Final Fantasy XI, using macros was "optional" and if you didn't you gonna get the boot outta the party. City of Heroes, Hasten is "optional, and so is Stamina, again if you don't get it, you will get flamed and have difficulties. The hell do you mean by optional? People encourage newbs to get the skills, and any newb with a brain can see how useful the skills are. So while they're ignoring these "optional" skills, the skills will be pounding on their brains reminding them that they need to be trained at some point in the game. Optional? Crappiest argument ever.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:02:00 - [13] I agree with the OP, ditch learning skills. They made some sense back when you didnt have people with 50m+ sp running around in CS and faction BS owning the **** out of everything, but now we do. Eve is entering the mature MMOG phase, and if we arent careful well go the way of Everquest and others where people simply stop signing up because they'll never have any chance of being good at stuff. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:04:00 - [14] Originally by: skuko this is my main and i have 8m SP. chith, i see your point, but on the other hand, i don't see anything wrong with the current system. i've nowhere to rush, i don't regret one second of training the learning skills (basic 5, advanced 4). forme, eve is a long term game, so i'm fine with investing roughly 2 months into training up learnings. what i did (and what my advice to newbs is), trained to cruiser and supporting skills and hung around level 2 missions for that period, acquainted myself with the game and mechanics, talked to people about various aspects and this time served me for making up my mind, what a really want to do in this game. so basically it gave me the time to think it through and not to rush into something i would regret... all in all, i think the system is fine.... P.S. been playing about half a year now... Exactly, you're one of the individuals who have indeed stuck around for the duration. I'm attempting to speak on behalf of the many folks I know who quit before that point. Avon does bring up a good point about advice, however it may be a bit misguided. In every other MMO I can think of, there is some kind point system for determining how much ability your character has. Trying to undo all of that programming in the name of 'just trust us' is a hard pill to swallow. It still doesn't change the fact that even if they do manage to do that, they'll end up having to pay the piper with a few months of time or just devote themselves to being inferior. It's a stretch to come up with any argument towards what they add towards the game. The best argument I can come up with not removing them is some kind of fear that the process would get screwed up code-wise and end up hosing the game for a few days. "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
Jvxta Federation Fleet Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:05:00 - [15] I agree, while for some ppl with alot of patience this is not as greatly detrimental as one would think, hey i trained the damn skills :p But on a serious note they are insane, if you want to compete within a reasonable timeframe, you need to skill learning skills to atleast 4/3 basic/adv. Most ppl will skill it to 4/4 and 5/4 to mitigate the weird starting attribs you get when you dont roll achura :( Basically you are creating a threshold giving the new players little to look forward to. I think that the learning skills should be removed, at least the adv. ones. The basic ones goes quickly to get to 4, and can on a later date be pushed to 5. Instead those points should be given to noobs from start, all old chars that havent got learning skills at 5 get some extra char attrib points. The ppl that have invested the time in training them, well changes happens and its for the better of the game as a whole. //Jv
skuko Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Del Narveux ...where people simply stop signing up because they'll never have any chance of being good at stuff. dude this is short-sighted imho, everyone knows, that you can catch up with a 2003 "veteran" only hypothetically and in a looooong time, but at the same time, people who think this through also know, that you need to specialize in order to match those "vets" and that is by no means an impossible task to do...
Frug Repo Industries R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:09:00 - [17] There's nothing wrong with learning skills. I don't see what the big problem is. It rewards people who are willing to sacrifice a bit now for benefits later, and it's not much slower than anything else in this generally slow game. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Barbens Harvale Reclaiming Services	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:09:00 - [18] The real point of these skills is to hasten your ability to get into ships, and use modules, faster. Granted, everyones first character, they generally say screw the learning, i want more guns. As move experienced players, we know that learning skills are, in fact, very imporant to the game. On a thirty-five day skill, training one point can take off a day or more depending on what it is. The point being, it saves time. General advice to a new player is always, train learning skills. I give different advice, to a point. I tell them to train the skills they absolutely need first (afterburners etc.) then to train learning as the primary goal. That being said, if they see a skill they think would be useful, to train it to keep the game good for them during that boring initial period. Once you start your second account, you're pretty seasoned and know what you want and can immediatly train learning no problem, because you have your main to do the fun stuff on. It should be aparent to even the newest player that being able to learn faster, is a great advantage over your competition
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:09:00 - [19] Edited by: Drasked on 10/03/2008 15:11:53 Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there. People turned away from the game because you gave them bad advice, learning skills is never required to do anything and the gap between high and low sp players will never be closed, so what are you trying to accomplish with this?
Kal Torvan	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:10:00 - [20] Completly agree, although it would probably be easier to leave them in the game and just give everyone maxed levels in them then to remove them. Would then also have to refund the time spent training them to players who have them maxed in some way. Im pretty sure Ive actually seen CCP quoted in a couple places as vastly regretting having ever implemented them to begin with, as theyre basically a fun tax. Might be a bit of a pain to get such a switch coded into the skill system however. Possibly do it at the same time they add a skill queue/dual training as theyll have to recode parts of the skill system then anyway.

skuko Caldari	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:11:00 - [21] oh and one more thing... it is a many times stated fact, that eve is a cruel, dark, cold game with NO INSTANT GRATIFICATION AT ALL... and that's what i love about eve...
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:11:00 - [22] What people need to do is use a good skill planner. There is no point training learning for a week to shave a day off some skills, only to quit the game a week later. New players are generally training low rank skills to meet the pre-reqs for the equipment they want to use. The return on training learning for these skills is very poor - and generally will extend rather than shorten the time to use. The best way to plan learning skills is to see which skills will shorten the time to use compared with not training them. For example (and the numbers are fictional), suppose someone decided they wanted to fly a Raven. They look at the flat time to train for that ship, say 2 weeks. Then, compare the time taken by training learning too. See how far you can train the relevant learning skills, and still have the 2 week to use time for the Raven. By doing that you are essentially getting the learning skills for free, with no timesink at all. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Barzam	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:12:00 - [23] Originally by: Drasked Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there. Agreed. But given the question: "What's the best way I can max out my capability of getting into cool ships and using cool modules?", what is the reply still? "Caldari Achura. All learning to 5, advanced to 4, +5 implants" So no. The problem is not people telling players what the best way is. The problem is that the best way to do things sucks for new players.
consider telos Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:13:00 - [24] The learning skill system is terrible. I vaguely remember reading somewhere the devs regretted putting it in. It basically penalises noobs. They feel obligated to train them first thing to reduce the sp difference between them and the vets. That's no way to start a game. Basically you see no development of your character in a meaningful way i.e. being able to fly new stuff etc, while your training these time sink skills.
Chith Port Royal Independent Kontractors	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:17:00 - [25] I would personally advocate just buffing all stats to the point where everyone has max learning skills and then reimbursing those points. Faster trains kept, noone ends up getting boned on time already spent. It would require code work to develop a system to redistribute, but that would be a powerful tool for the developers to be able to make some long-needed changes in a variety of areas. I still don't understand what the argument is FOR these skills. "He ne'er is crowned with immortality Who fears to follow where airy voices lead." --Keats
Saffin	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:23:00 - [26] I agree that learning skils should be pulled out the game, well easier solution dont pull them out the game just give everyone lvl 5 in all learning skills. Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely. The only real issue is with the people that train advanced learning skills to lvl 5 where it is going to take them years to recoup. For this special case you give a one off skill point boost of the time of the advanced level 5 skill. I imagine most players dont have advanced skills to level 5 anyway so they gain too in progression. No one loses from having trained learning skills, all they lose is there advantage going forward from the point everyone is given lvl 5. Im a fully 5/4 skill learning and have no problem with this at all. Very old players have had the advantage for a while. So the only real "losers" are new characters still training there learning skills as they have been training for nothing (they would have got it anyway), as they have got no advantage from it but have spent the time (which they could have used on real skills). Now im one of then too on my alt account. I think if you said well you "wasted" a month but dont have "waste" another month they would be happy. At least i would. Saf
Exlegion New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Christari Zuborov I agree with the poster above me. No one is holding a gun to your head stating that you MUST train learning skills. As a matter of fact, if you've not made the decision to play this game long term, but rather only for a couple of months, you wouldn't make up the time lost training those skills. So true newbs are losing nothing if the advice were simply, train what you want to train, and later on if you really think you're going to be playing for the long haul - train your learning skills. The thing is it isn't as clear-cut as "just don't train". In order for new players to compete with the older ones and somewhat close the gap they need to train up the learning skills. Otherwise the gap between the new and the older players just keeps widening, as more than likely the older players do have the learning skills trained up and will consequently train skills faster than those that don't. Free Ingrid! She owes me a lapdance.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:25:00 - [28] They can be removed in a way that does not upset people who already trained a lot of sp in them: make the skills usefull for something else, like turning them to few % more cap/speed/stuff that most people can use somehow. This way new pilots don't have to train them first, while not being able to progress in the first weeks (as most people are looking for an optimal development, not wasting too much time on the long run), while those who have trained them didn't just waste the skilltime.
Stern Maxwell Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:25:00 - [29] One thing I do with my alt, is train short skills, and trained long enough to get him in a Retriever, and chipped away at learning skills overnight, or whenever I wasn't around. That way I could enjoy mining, gain standing for better refines by doing mining missions, and still get a stat bonus as I went along. I still think learning skills are crap, and we should be reimbursed SP wise, and just have high stats from the start. ___________________________________________
Drasked North Face Force	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:26:00 - [30] Originally by: Saffin blablabla Why don't we just give everyone 255 MIL SP to distribute freely and call it a day?



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