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Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:27:43 Originally by: Saffin I agree that learning skils should be pulled out the game, well easier solution dont pull them out the game just give everyone lvl 5 in all learning skills. Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely. The only real issue is with the people that train advanced learning skills to lvl 5 where it is going to take them years to recoup. For this special case you give a one off skill point boost of the time of the advanced level 5 skill. I imagine most players dont have advanced skills to level 5 anyway so they gain too in progression. No one loses from having trained learning skills, all they lose is there advantage going forward from the point everyone is given lvl 5. Im a fully 5/4 skill learning and have no problem with this at all. Very old players have had the advantage for a while. So the only real "losers" are new characters still training there learning skills as they have been training for nothing (they would have got it anyway), as they have got no advantage from it but have spent the time (which they could have used on real skills). Now im one of then too on my alt account. I think if you said well you "wasted" a month but dont have "waste" another month they would be happy. At least i would. Saf So, would I get a SP boost to make up for all the time I spent training skills before the introduction of Advanced Learning skills. Only fair right? Even if it does mean giving the oldest players even more SP's, further extending the skill gap. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:26:00 - [32] Isn't training the first round skills to 4 like having a full set of 4+ implants that never get lost? That is worth training for, no? If you couldn't it would give an advantage to older players who can afford to keep those implants in their head and still PVP in 0.0. "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." Hunter S. Thompson.
breaky1 HOMELESS. Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:27:00 - [33] /signed Here is how I see it: It's really smart to train learning skills because they give you a big bonus in skill training time. But, it's also very boring and results in delayed, snails-pace gratification (the reward is that you save seconds/minutes in the short term, weeks/months/years in the long-term). So, learning skills put off new players who are not certain they want to play for a long time. Almost every other skill has an immediate reward upon completion, but learning skills' rewards accumulate with time and are thus very frustrating to grind. I believe CCP's thinking is that long-term players should be rewarded for their invested time, and also that since high SP have longer skill training-times there should be a way to earn a reduction in that time. But, the learning skill system is only a mediocre solution to this problem.
Aprudena Gist Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Barzam Originally by: Drasked Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ******** advice you can give, lets start there. Agreed. But given the question: "What's the best way I can max out my capability of getting into cool ships and using cool modules?", what is the reply still? "Caldari Achura. All learning to 5, advanced to 4, +5 implants" So no. The problem is not people telling players what the best way is. The problem is that the best way to do things sucks for new players. ah no its more like all learning to 4 advanced to 3 and +3 implants for new people.
Saffin	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:29:00 - [35] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Saffin I agree that learning skils should be pulled out the game, well easier solution dont pull them out the game just give everyone lvl 5 in all learning skills. Anyone that already has the skils has lost nothing as they have had the benefit of them, they have lost there advantage going forward but have had the advantage for a while not lost out completely. The only real issue is with the people that train advanced learning skills to lvl 5 where it is going to take them years to recoup. For this special case you give a one off skill point boost of the time of the advanced level 5 skill. I imagine most players dont have advanced skills to level 5 anyway so they gain too in progression. No one loses from having trained learning skills, all they lose is there advantage going forward from the point everyone is given lvl 5. Im a fully 5/4 skill learning and have no problem with this at all. Very old players have had the advantage for a while. So the only real "losers" are new characters still training there learning skills as they have been training for nothing (they would have got it anyway), as they have got no advantage from it but have spent the time (which they could have used on real skills). Now im one of then too on my alt account. I think if you said well you "wasted" a month but dont have "waste" another month they would be happy. At least i would. Saf So, would I get a SP boost to make up for all the time I spent training skills before the introduction of Advanced Learning skills. Only fair right? Even if it does mean giving the oldest playaers even more SP's, further extending the skill gap. Nope cos you have had a year plus (as i have) of having an advantage from learning them skills. It only the advantage going forward you lose, not the one from the years past that you loss. Saf
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:29:00 - [36] Edited by: Hunter Hughes on 10/03/2008 15:33:45 ANY PLAYER CAN BE EFFECTIVE. They dont have to train for a year and a half to be great at a certain roll. For example, a new player can train for an interceptor with t2 mwd/ scram/ overdrives in a short amount of time and just go around scraming targets for the larger fleet. Hell if they even want to they can just use a t1 cruiser (Rifter ftw) and use the T2 GUNS!?!?!? that they start with to kill other frigs in fleets. The only thing that your whining about is that they cannot SOLO well till about 6 months (in a cruiser of course). At that point it is all about picking your targets well. For example at 5 months into the game i was pirating and pvping all around the Bleak Lands region. I even made a eve movie to show off my fights. (Myrmidon Domination, youtube it if you dont believe me) I think i did very well as a new character and i think if other new chars specialize in a certain class of ship, then they can do well to. Unfortuantly, i cant speak for the industrial side of things but i dont believe it would take that long to get into a mining barge. Learning skills are not that much of a nucense (spellingftw) to new players as it does not take that long to train. I had done all my tier 2 learning skills to 4 (cept intelligence) before my first 1 month with all my basic support skills (wp upgrades, engineering, electronics, etc). So i believe that you SHOULD FIX SOMETHING THAT ISNT BROKEN, this system has worked for all of us, it will work for them too. Even now as a 1 1/2 year old player i can compete with 3+ year old players and learning skills didnt slow me down. Originally by: GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:31:00 - [37] Originally by: Saffin Nope cos you have had a year plus (as i have) of having an advantage from learning them skills. It only the advantage going forward you lose, not the one from the years past that you loss. Saf So I should be disadvantaged because I started playing before the advanced learning skills were available? My maximum possible SP/time should be lower than a new player? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Nacho Daddy Caldari Ministry of Funny Walks	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:32:00 - [38] Umm I spent the time on the learning skills and really its not that big a deal to get them up a few points if you mix them in with other skills. I have the first tier skills trained to 4 and the second tier skills trained to 3 and I've got over 1 million SP more than people I know that started playing at the same time as me who didn't invest in the learning skills. You can do the mind numbing thing and just train learning skills or you can train the all to L1 or L2 and then train skills you need/want to train to a few levels, go back and train a few learning skills to L3, train some more skills and then get a learning skills to L4 here and there. Then start over with the advanced. Get the Memory and Int skills along with Learning itself up fastest since they affect the other learning skills and you end up with more skills and skill points than if you trudge along through the learning skills with no improvements in your skills elsewhere. Not to mention that the advanced skills cost 4.5 million ISK and you want to be able to run L2 or L3 missions to be able to earn that kind of cash.
Andrue Amarr Federation Of Space Loonies Culture Shock Initiative	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Barzam Originally by: Drasked Telling a new player to dive straight into the learning skills is the most ****** advice you can give, lets start there. Agreed. But given the question: "What's the best way I can max out my capability of getting into cool ships and using cool modules?", what is the reply still? "Caldari Achura. All learning to 5, advanced to 4, +5 implants" No, that's the wrong reply. The correct reply is: "Stop rushing. Enjoy the experience of playing the game." Eve is not a game for the instant gratification crowd. If Learning skills are putting people off then they are serving a useful purpose. New players need to be taught what Eve really is not given a leg up by cheapening the system. -- (Sarcastic mission running veteran) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Tyr Zewa Caldari Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:33:00 - [40] If you'd remove all old chars for a month, and make all those 50mil+ sp chars play start chars (that are ah so awesome now, with almost 1mil sp blahblahblah) they'd quickly get bored of only being able to fly one ship too and change their mind. As it is, they don't understand how it is to actually be a new player and only see what they had. At worst they even come up with "go back to wow for instant gratification" bull**** lines.
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:33:00 - [41] When I make a new char, I mix and match the appropriate learning skills with useful combat skills that will let me do more things/ fly more ships. Delaying learning skills a month or so is going to make no appreciable difference in how many SP you've amassed at the end of the year, but it makes a ton of difference in how much fun your first month is. The problem isn't learning skills, it's people telling new players to learn all the learning skills to V first thing.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:35:00 - [42] Originally by: Tyr Zewa If you'd remove all old chars for a month, and make all those 50mil+ sp chars play start chars (that are ah so awesome now, with almost 1mil sp blahblahblah) they'd quickly get bored of only being able to fly one ship too and change their mind. As it is, they don't understand how it is to actually be a new player and only see what they had. At worst they even come up with "go back to wow for instant gratification" bull**** lines. Except all those 50mil+ SP characters have all been there, and decided to keep playing. Poor arguement. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Kahega Amielden	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:35:00 - [43] Learning skills do nothing but add a timesink before players can start doing -real- stuff in the game. Yes, they can CHOOSE to not do it, but they're effectively forced to (or they will be very far behind in the long run). Just remove them, give everyone +10 to all attributes. Would make the game more accessible without dumbing it down-that's always a good thing.
Wheya Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:35:00 - [44] Learning skills are a tedious avocation. I myself have long time thought Eve maybe would be better without them because of the reasons mentioned above. On the other hand I think Eve excels compared to other games because decisions you make have a more or less important effect. In Eve you just don't spawn in equal characters like in first person shooters. Eve is more about planing ahead. Removing the learning skills is removing one admittedly tedious task but at the same time one part of this game which makes Eve unique. Players with a short attention span will hate this system. Other players who are in Eve for a long time accept that sooner or later training the learning skills is an essential part of this game every one will do sooner or later to a more or less extended degree. Instead of removing the learning skills I advertise adding more learning skills. I wouldn't mind seeing rank 5 and rank 7 super advanced and mastery learning skills. They would allow even more tactical character delvelopments right from the start. For example for a career that almost exclusively specializes on skills with one attribute. On the other hand people would start to realize that training all learning skills to level 5 is not always the brightest idea.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:36:00 - [45] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Learning skills do nothing but add a timesink before players can start doing -real- stuff in the game. Yes, they can CHOOSE to not do it, but they're effectively forced to (or they will be very far behind in the long run). Just remove them, give everyone +10 to all attributes. Would make the game more accessible without dumbing it down-that's always a good thing. Trained correctly learning skills are not a timesink. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Saffin	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:37:00 - [46] I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair". so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount. btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month. Saf
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:40:00 - [47] Originally by: Saffin I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair". so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount. btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month. Saf They train at the same rate, or faster, than I did at that stage in the game. They may be training slower than I am right now, but that does not mean the gap is increasing - because they are just going through the same phase as we all went through in the beginning .. with the added advantages of loads more starting SP's and the availability of advanced learning skills and cheap implants. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Burnharder	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:40:00 - [48] Originally by: Tyr Zewa If you'd remove all old chars for a month, and make all those 50mil+ sp chars play start chars (that are ah so awesome now, with almost 1mil sp blahblahblah) they'd quickly get bored of only being able to fly one ship too and change their mind. As it is, they don't understand how it is to actually be a new player and only see what they had. At worst they even come up with "go back to wow for instant gratification" bull**** lines. I still don't understand the argument. The tutorial doesn't tell him to go out, buy learning skills and train them up to 5 before he does anything else. When I started out I had a Reaper for ages, then trained up for a Rifter. At the same time I was training up mining on/off to get some $$$. After that I cross trained up to a Thorax and trained up some drone skills. It took several months to get there - no really, that long. THEN I discovered learning skills.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:41:00 - [49] If they don't remove them they should combine the learning skills with basic support skills. That way you're not training "Pointless skill that contributes nothing to me actually being able to play the game but which I need so it doesn't take me weeks to do anything else". Please CCP, help me talk my friends into playing. "BUT I TRAINED THE LEARNING SKILLS THE HARD WAY / I HAD 90K SP WHEN I MADE MY CHARACTER / NEWBIES WOULD BE BETTER OFF THAN I WAS WHEN I STARTED" Frankly, who gives a **? In what universe does that matter? This forum is full of QQ threads about low sec being underpopulated. What if the new player experience was more engaging and less dull? Wouldn't that help solve that one? OFC the thing still missing from that equation would be some way of easing people into PVP but there you go. EVE RELATED CONTENT**
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart Puts on flame suit Alright 'tards. And I am referring to the people who say learning skills are a choice. When I first started out EvE, people kept encouraging me to get learning skills. After looking at attributes, I realized how useful they were as well. Back then, Tier 2 training skills were not out yet so getting training skills to lvl 4 was all we needed. Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life. In Final Fantasy XI, using macros was "optional" and if you didn't you gonna get the boot outta the party. City of Heroes, Hasten is "optional, and so is Stamina, again if you don't get it, you will get flamed and have difficulties. The hell do you mean by optional? People encourage newbs to get the skills, and any newb with a brain can see how useful the skills are. So while they're ignoring these "optional" skills, the skills will be pounding on their brains reminding them that they need to be trained at some point in the game. Optional? Crappiest argument ever. The learning skills are useful, but to train learning skills for 2 months, then deciding the game isn't for you is the ******** path to follow. Play around with the game and have fun - do what you want to do. As for catching up to a 50MM sp player, you never will ever, "catch up" to one of them. You can however train and be as effective as ANY SP level character in frigates, interceptors, or destroyers in a marginal amount of time longer than it would take to train those learning skills. Even then, you must be the "cog" in the wheel, because you will ALWAYS and FOREVER be pwned every time you think you're SP is so uber you don't need a wingman. "This is a MMO, understand you will experience less than 1/2 the game offers on your own" should be the advice given out to newbs, not "train all these skills and buy +5 implants or you'll amount to nothing." And for the record... I just started the other day training the remainder of my learning skills and will take a guess at stating I've had implants for less than 1/8 of my characters 1.75 years. I have 20MM SPs, but it isn't my SP that allows me to win. Do I care that I don't have implants right now? or that at max I can only own +3s? Nahh... Not at all. I'd only get them shot out of my head and I'd be grinding and spending more money on implants than I would be on ships having FUN. Key phrase there fellas - have fun.
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:44:00 - [51] Edited by: Cygnus Scott on 10/03/2008 15:45:58 Originally by: Ulstan The problem isn't learning skills, it's people telling new players to learn all the learning skills to V first thing. This. If you look at EVEmon you can improve training times getting your learning skills to 4 and the advanced to 3. Beyond that there isn't a a significant time gain for most skills. Once you get into the extremely long training skills that take a month or more to train is when you worry about getting them the rest of the way to V.
Lil'Red Ridin'Hood Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:46:00 - [52] I wouldn't mind if CCP gradually took out the learning skills. In fact, I would profit from it since I don't have my advanced learning skills maxed out. However, by doing this, you'd take away the only chance of players catching up to older ones. They wouldn't be able to train faster than the older non-learned ones. If CCP decided to auto-upgrade every player's base skills to level 1/2/../5 then the advanced in the same manner over 10 months, they'd only have to hit the delete-frikkin-skills button after 10 months to get rid of them forever.
Saffin	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:47:00 - [53] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Saffin I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair". so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount. btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month. Saf They train at the same rate, or faster, than I did at that stage in the game. They may be training slower than I am right now, but that does not mean the gap is increasing - because they are just going through the same phase as we all went through in the beginning .. with the added advantages of loads more starting SP's and the availability of advanced learning skills and cheap implants. I dont believe they do train faster, because when we where training that slowly we didnt have compete with people with tech 2 mods and tech 2 ships, so the extra skills where significant, but not as significant. Cruiser lvl 5 was not a big investment that gained, you gained the whole 5% damage increase (or alike) - now it gain the ability to fly a tech 2 ships with tech 2 resists, Hp etc. So cruiser lvl 5 is not the deminishing returns it was in our early days. Saf
Tyr Zewa Caldari Tax Collectors	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:50:00 - [54] Originally by: Saffin Originally by: Avon Originally by: Saffin I think the point is where does it say this system has to be "fair". so a year of training in 2004 is not equal to a year of training 2008 (which it isn't now cos all learnings did not exist). So what the game is very different. The amount to have to learn in 2008 is far greater. It not like the new players are going to catch you. It just that they will stay the set amount behind, not an ever growing amount. btw i was playing in 2004, this would affect me as much as most. Sounding to me like a complete elitist ideaology that cos you played since beta you should be uber. Most games people ctach old players in 3 months (serios grind) 6 month casual play. In eve if everyone was given lvl 5 they would never catch the older players but would not be lossing out in the gap month on month. Saf They train at the same rate, or faster, than I did at that stage in the game. They may be training slower than I am right now, but that does not mean the gap is increasing - because they are just going through the same phase as we all went through in the beginning .. with the added advantages of loads more starting SP's and the availability of advanced learning skills and cheap implants. I dont believe they do train faster, because when we where training that slowly we didnt have compete with people with tech 2 mods and tech 2 ships, so the extra skills where significant, but not as significant. Cruiser lvl 5 was not a big investment that gained, you gained the whole 5% damage increase (or alike) - now it gain the ability to fly a tech 2 ships with tech 2 resists, Hp etc. So cruiser lvl 5 is not the deminishing returns it was in our early days. Saf nor where there 40 different ship types to try out..... we had frigs, cruiser, battleships.... that's all there was. oh yeah and ofc Amarr indy lvl1 for to fly a bestower :P
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Anell Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days. Well obviously if they got rid of learning skills they would have to give everyone 5/5 on learning skills so no one would get burned by having trained them. Blizzard has done a similar thing recently by nerfing the amount of time it takes to level up, encouraging more people to try different classes etc. since it doesn't take nearly as long, and from what I understand it's been very successful in retaining existing players and attracting new ones. (By the way I currently have all learning skills at 4 and +5 attribute implants, and I would love if they got rid of the learning skills.)
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:55:00 - [56] So this discussion has skipped from learning to TII stuff should be the baseline for ships and equipment, so people should be able to fly it from day 0? Maybe Titans could be the new noob ships? How long do you think people are going to play if they don't have something to work towards? Giving people their dreams on a plate will just lead to dissapointment and boredom. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:56:00 - [57] Originally by: Zero Target Originally by: Anell Learning skills make it possible to gain skills at a much faster rate (I can't believe I needed to point that out). I can't think of something that would turn more people off then finding out that the 4 day skill they are training now will suddenly require 7 days. Well obviously if they got rid of learning skills they would have to give everyone 5/5 on learning skills so no one would get burned by having trained them. Blizzard has done a similar thing recently by nerfing the amount of time it takes to level up, encouraging more people to try different classes etc. since it doesn't take nearly as long, and from what I understand it's been very successful in retaining existing players and attracting new ones. (By the way I currently have all learning skills at 4 and +5 attribute implants, and I would love if they got rid of the learning skills.) Well thank God this isn't WoW, I would have left a long time ago.
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:57:00 - [58] Originally by: Vincent Lionhart Now for the morons who think that this is an "optional" skill. Why don't you look at your own skill tree and tell me if it's there. Is it optional? That is about the dumbest argument I've heard in my life. Agreed, most people sign up for MMOs at least thinking/planning they'll be there for the long haul, in which case the learning skills are absolutely essential. In my case, by training my learning skills to IV and getting implants, I'm shaving something like 2 MONTHS off my training time for a T2 battleship, around 30%, and when I go to train caps it'll be much more! Who in their right mind wouldn't train their learning skills, and as early as possible in the game?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. eXceed.	Posted - 2008.03.10 15:57:00 - [59] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 10/03/2008 15:00:26 The learning skills aren't the problem. The problem is that the "old" players are telling the "new" players that they must train the learning skills before they even consider undocking. Bad advice is the issue. I agree with the ugly bobbit.
Saffin	Posted - 2008.03.10 16:03:00 - [60] Originally by: Avon So this discussion has skipped from learning to TII stuff should be the baseline for ships and equipment, so people should be able to fly it from day 0? Maybe Titans could be the new noob ships? How long do you think people are going to play if they don't have something to work towards? Giving people their dreams on a plate will just lead to dissapointment and boredom. Tech 2 (with the exception of BSs and capitals) IS the baseline for PvP in my opinion. I dont see many small PvP not using tech 2 ships and mods. And they still have a huge grind ahead of then for the isk to afford to loss tech 2 ships. I think older players forget how hard it is to make isk in the beginning. Yes i can start an alt and even without giving it a isk boost to start with i can make a decent amount of isk, that is more to do with my skill and knowledge of Eve (not my characters) which new players do not have. Saf

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