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000Hunter000 Gallente Missiles 'R' Us	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:31:00 - [91] Without reading the rest of the thread i can say this. I think the learningskills are a nice threshold, if someone is willing to go through the trouble learning them up a few notches, then they will have the stamina to stay a while and not fizzle out when the novelty of the game wears of and when they find out the game is not just about pvp cuz if it were everybody would be poor and flying frigs. And on another note, where will it end? the learning skills are a time sink, but hell, so are all the other skills. U suggest we all start of with Titan L5 then and be done with it? If u want a game where there is almost no skilltime involved mebbe u should go play Pong. _______________________________________________________ CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:34:00 - [92] Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 18:34:30 Somewhere between Eve and Pong there is a good middle ground. Or is that too outlandish and inconceivable.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:36:00 - [93] Learning skills are the most optimal way to advance your character at day one - skill time can NEVER be regained. But they're boring and time consuming. I wouldn't like to see an EVE where everyone was 9 points lower on their stats. But I also don't like the idea that a newbie coming in sees 'optimal' in the form of 'spend 2 months getting bored'. REALLY not. Just ditch learning entirely, and give everyone a boost to all their stats, of 11 or 12 points or whatever it works out as with that 10% from 'learning'. Really, seriously. Those are dead skillpoints, that do bugger all useful, and are pointless timesinks that actively hurt a character's advancement. There's enough pointless timesinks as is, but most of 'em are at least far enough down the line, that they're _not_ mandatory. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Buyerr	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:36:00 - [94] i totally agree with you although i think that at the same time adding +10 to every stats would wrap it up nicely (and at the same time recalculate the time spend on learning with the new stats and then give it back to the player I declare war on stupidity
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers	Posted - 2008.03.10 18:51:00 - [95] 1st off - let's start being honest about the skill queue for the learning skills. It takes 2 weeks to train the base skills and advanced skills to lvl 4 - So it isn't two months, it's 2 weeks. I know this because I've just bought a 2nd account last week and that character already has more learning skills than my primary who's 1.75 yrs old. So, if the argument is that two months is too long, then there's no argument - it's two weeks. If you come back and say two weeks is too long, then this is the wrong game for you. Some skills take 6+ months to train to level 5.
happomaagi Art of War	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:09:00 - [96] Originally by: Christari Zuborov So, if the argument is that two months is too long, then there's no argument - it's two weeks. If you come back and say two weeks is too long, then this is the wrong game for you. Some skills take 6+ months to train to level 5. The argument isnt about that they take too long to train but about the meaningfulness of them in general. And btw, you need to add another month on top of the two weeks if you want them at 5/4.
Cygnus Scott Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:11:00 - [97] Why does everyone act like you have to grind the learning skills from level 1 to 5 non-stop from the very minute you first log on? You can pause training, switch to another skill, train one or a few up to a certain level and stop. Christ people you act like you're chained to the damn learning skills every second from the moment you create your character until you hit level V in that last learning skill. You supposedly veteran players sound like a bunch of whining n00bs, stop it you're embarrassing yourselves. Yes the learning skills are important, but you don't have to train them to level 5 as the first thing you do. Break up your training, getting to level 2 in a skill takes maybe 2 hours if you have bad attributes to start with. That's nothing and you start benefiting from them right away with some slightly decreased training times. The first 6 are Rank one skills and the other 5 are Rank 3. Not really that time consuming to train to 4 for all eleven skills if you're playing this game for more than a month.
Raijin Iyo	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:13:00 - [98] I am a new player (started december 2007), and since then I have trained all my basic learning skills (except charsima) to level 4, and all of my advanced (except charsima) to level 3 with the exception of willpower which is at 2. Do I regret it? Do I feel like that time was wasted? No, of course not. I wasn't forced to train learning skills. I am glad I trained them. I see the benefits every time i queue up a new skill to train. Nobody is forcing new players to max out all their learning skills. It is common knowledge that maxing them out is only useful if you plan to stick with the game for years. There is a useful benenfit to training them to 4/3 or to 5/4, and it isn't that hard. Where is the problem? This is just like people saying low sec is boring, or skill queues are needed, or lets get carebears out of empire, or whatever. Why not let everyone just have the option? Many of the skills in this game are already like that. You usually don't have to max a skill to get its benefits, but if you want the best benefit you have to pay the price. The system is fine as it is.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:22:00 - [99] Originally by: Christari Zuborov 1st off - let's start being honest about the skill queue for the learning skills. It takes 2 weeks to train the base skills and advanced skills to lvl 4 - So it isn't two months, it's 2 weeks. I know this because I've just bought a 2nd account last week and that character already has more learning skills than my primary who's 1.75 yrs old. So, if the argument is that two months is too long, then there's no argument - it's two weeks. If you come back and say two weeks is too long, then this is the wrong game for you. Some skills take 6+ months to train to level 5. Wait if we are going to be honest lets be honest. I just opened eve mon and took this alt which has no training time invested but has the basic giveaway skills in place. Lets assume i am one of those hyper-anal -retentive types who wants to maximize every bit of time investiment in this game and i plan to forgoe my social life and potential offspring to devote my life to eve. To train to 5 both advanced and beginner learning skills if i start today, i will not complete training until June 15th. Thats 3 months and 5 days. and if I want implants i am going to have to offtrain science skills... Thata a lot more than 2 weeks. Lets not sugar coat it to make ourselves feel better about how much time we are required to invest training to be able to train more efficiently.
Victor Ivanov Minmatar The Fated Odyssey.	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:23:00 - [100] Just adding a /signed to it. There isn't a single good argument in favour of learning skills. It is and always has been a time sink, and a rather significant one at that, at a time when new players want to progress and try out new things. As a early 2005 player, I also endorse scrapping them. Up the attributes of the base classes as a start. Calmdown's suggestion of letting attributes control more aspects of EVE than just learning speed would allow a new version of learning skills to be implemented, that maximise your "inner" potential. New players are not forced to waste months training them up to catch up with older players, but would retain the freedom/roleplay aspect of developing their avatar into a wiser/more insightful/etc character. A 1% bonus to say tracking for high perception modifiers could be turned into a maximum bonus of 5% through training "Perceptual awareness training" to lvl 5, giving the inherrent abilities of a person practise and through that sculpting its raw potential(Attributes) into a more refined and efficient whole(Better insight in combat operations). Perhaps the bonuses should not be directly linked to combat, however. Ambulation could offer possible alternatives. I'm not a game developer, so I'm merely documenting my own thoughts on the matter. :) ----------------------
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:24:00 - [101] Originally by: Chith If there were any kind of sweeping change to the game that I would support, it would be to remove these skills. Whatever system is employed to do this is fine -- personally I wouldn't care if they just took the 2.5mil sp i have in learning away. A change like this would weaken the hegemony of high-sp players and do a lot for the fostering of new players, benefiting everyone. The first two times I started Eve I quit during the trial because of frustration over learning skills and the lack of actual progress made while learning them. When I finally started my current main, shortly after I had finished training all of the learning skills, Revelations decreased the requirement on all learning skills and raised the base starting SP to 800k, effectively removing all of the training I had done , however also indicating that CCP was aware the new character experience was terrible. There is a fundamental problem with removing all learning skills from the game: we've already trained them and there is no mechanism by which to reimburse us for weeks spent on those skills. So my recommendation to CCP is this: 1. Double the amount of starter SP (~1,600,000) 2. Put that new 800k SP entirely into learning skills! This will save new characters from nearly a month of grueling pointless skill training!
Kelso Bluebane Minmatar Un4seen Development	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:31:00 - [102] There are some pro's and some cons to the OP idea, yes everyone feels the pain at some point of training what are essentially boring skills. But they do provide a buffer of skills that you can train offline, that eventually have positive results overall. Also they provide a stop gap in your learning curve in regards of gameplay. Everyones met someone who jumps straight in a battleship and thinks he/she is king/Queen of the hill. I would advocate a compromise of changing the advanced learning skills to rank 1 (from rank 3) and changing the requirements on +4 implants from cybernetics 4 to cybernetics 1. I would also change the character creation to include at least one of the basic learning skills to 5. Race/bloodline/profession dependant on what you get. Having helped a fair few new players in the game, I would point out its not the learning skills that cause the vast majority of players to leave. Its a point about 8 months in when faced with cruiser 5 or battlecruiser 5 and now with the advent of Marauders Battleship 5 and all the related skills such as T2 guns or Missle launchers
Guillame Herschel Gallente The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:33:00 - [103] Originally by: Chith We have new folks coming into the game, interested and curious, and the best advice we can give them is to burn a few months training up a few skills that do absolutely nothing to progress them forward in the game. I personally know a few folks who got burned out merely because of that. I agree, it's tremendously lame. Yes it is lame. I don't give that kind of advice. It's bad advice. Maybe we should remove players who give bad advice from the game, instead of removing learning skills. *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then. --*
Qolde Minmatar Scrambled Eggs Inc.	Posted - 2008.03.10 19:56:00 - [104] It's a trick to keep people playing longer. Though it does not work, it will not be fixed. I know someone who started this game less than a year ago, grinded missions, and got a Machariel before he was 3 months old, has +5's, and ALL learning skills to 5. He says the only thing that is holding him back is training skills, and waiting for older players that are his friends (without implants and **loads of isk) to catch up, so he will feel comfortable risking his ship in PVP. It makes him want to quit, and he has a couple times, because sitting in a station waiting for a skill to train is boring, even with the best learning skills you can possibly have. Yes, do away with learning skills, and add the attributes to every character, new and old. The ones who had low learning skills will like the game more, and the ones with all the skills already trained will enjoy the game more because they will have a little more competition. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
theteck	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:13:00 - [105] i try to enter my clan to this game on 10 people 8 leave because learning its to long after 1 pay month but maybe cut on training time under a limit i dont know but really to mutch training when you are new... me im only a 7.9 m skillpoins and i cant make real combat .... all the time i try 0.0 low sec ... i die .... but come see me in bf2142 ... i kill you np <lol
Brainless Bimbo	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:14:00 - [106] How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks. Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours. Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!. ... continued overleaf
Voculus E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:16:00 - [107] I fully support removing learning skills from the game, as they add nothing to the gameplay experience, aside from making it more of a headache to get ahead. From a business standpoint for CCP, it makes perfect sense. Most new subscribers stay for an average of 7 months. They should entice them to stay longer by letting them train skills that mean something, rather than forcing them to sit on their ass for a month, "learning to learn." _________________________________________________________
Brainless Bimbo	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:18:00 - [108] Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 20:18:58 Originally by: George Techeye Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 18:34:30 Somewhere between Eve and Pong there is a good middle ground. Or is that too outlandish and inconceivable. yes i remember pong, it was the future of entertainmet when it came, two paddles and a ball, 1974, use to play it in the pub. Eve is the other extreme if you hadn't realsised, if you want the middle, go play wow its about the centre ground between your two stated games. ... continued overleaf
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:19:00 - [109] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks. Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours. Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!. A lot of people spend more time in eve mon than in eve online trying to adjust and schedule and fit and modify. There is something inherently wrong with a game that actually fosters that approach. As so many people have said before and will continue to say as long as Eve-Online is a slave to the Training time-sink approach aboe all else, "It's the best game i never play."
Furious Hawk Caldari I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:21:00 - [110] Edited by: Furious Hawk on 10/03/2008 20:22:58 Originally by: Chith Unless some drugs have inadvertently confused me, I'm pretty sure learning skills only affect little numbers on your char sheet making them tick faster. They in fact allow you to use no new modules, ships, equipment, or enable to use any of those to higher ability. Of course, we all know this. I think you sincerely misunderstood the point of the comment and opted for the much more humorous drug talk, though. Ok, let me make my point a little clearer. If you train learning skills for one month, then go off and train Cruiser to five, the total for all of that is about 2 months. If you never train learning, and attempt Cruiser five, it's going to take somewhere around 3 to 4 months. And Cruiser 5 is a walk in the park compared to other skills. Battleships 5? Command Ships 5? Titans 5? And where do implants come in to your little learning skill slaughter house? Will I be able to use +5 implants and not have to train for them? Why don't you just suck all the planning and intelligence right out of the game, then the WoW players will come flooding back.
Dramund Amarr Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:23:00 - [111] Edited by: Dramund on 10/03/2008 20:23:48 Not reading the rest of the thread, as a new player, I completely agree with the OP that the fact that you need to "train commitment to save time" (not to mention purchase attribute implants out of reach of a fresh noob) is the absolute most ******** game mechanic in EVE by far. It wasn't enough to turn me off EVE completely, but it came close. That said, removing them alone would not suffice since skill training would then be painfully slow. edit: Also after reading some posts, the basic math supports training all learning skills to 4 and advanced learning skills to 3 even if you plan on only playing 4 months or so.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:25:00 - [112] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 10/03/2008 20:18:58 Originally by: George Techeye Edited by: George Techeye on 10/03/2008 18:34:30 Somewhere between Eve and Pong there is a good middle ground. Or is that too outlandish and inconceivable. yes i remember pong, it was the future of entertainmet when it came, two paddles and a ball, 1974, use to play it in the pub. Eve is the other extreme if you hadn't realsised, if you want the middle, go play wow its about the centre ground between your two stated games. Those who are willing to adapt survive. Those who are not willing to adapt face extinction. The face of internet gaming is constantly changing. If you are so commited to a paradigm that you are unwilling and/or unable to adjust it to the everchanging gaming environment you are facing the inevitability of your own extinction. Say what you want bout WOW (frankly i quit because of the every grind being made pointless with expansions) they are a nimble development team tha responds to their changing community and the increase in population confirms it. They know how to adapt. I don't agree with their choices in how to adapt but i have to give them credit for being savey on how to capture control and consistantly increase their market share. Meanwhile, back in our universe....yawn...train train train train train....yawn. Atleast i dont have to be logged in to do it and its not made completely pointless with expansions.
Brainless Bimbo	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:26:00 - [113] Originally by: George Techeye Originally by: Brainless Bimbo How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks. Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours. Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!. A lot of people spend more time in eve mon than in eve online trying to adjust and schedule and fit and modify. There is something inherently wrong with a game that actually fosters that approach. As so many people have said before and will continue to say as long as Eve-Online is a slave to the Training time-sink approach aboe all else, "It's the best game i never play." So you admit they are stupid, you realise that you would lose attribute points too, your 30 days to lvl 5 will suddenly be 45+ days to use that nice tech 2 stuff you want, you consider that, umm smart move eh!. You understand that Intelligence is related to Adaptability, do you want to play with people that can adapt or people that whine 24/7 because they want to play a different game but can't be arsed to go find it. ... continued overleaf
theteck	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:27:00 - [114] i try to enter my clan to this game on 10 people 8 leave because learning its to long after 1 pay month but maybe cut on training time under a limit i dont know but really to mutch training when you are new... me im only a 7.9 m skillpoins and i cant make real combat .... all the time i try 0.0 low sec ... i die .... and new people enter alone and will be alone with no help ... rookie chanel only isk sellers are here.... a lot of this hehehe not funny for who start the game for the first start like all friend and people i enter the gamer i pass a lot of time to explain all we need to do in space... and i pay all stuff at start to all my members i help eatch people i can do when i see 1 asking a question in local .... but after 1 month in same ship or dont have any money because mining its risky in high sec now ... and no help for nothing... maybe its time to be paid to go work in a training corp and force new user to pass by this corp at first.... and do some course to the schedules for new people like me i do with my corp new people i enter i show how to mining with real people (teamplay) how to do first mission attack etc... i go make mission level 2 with my people and i use my hyperion with shield emmiter and armor repair etc... and help all to have a nice combat and pratice gun range etc... fun to help all this newbie and i test fun group modules :) but a school for newbie with real people from the game ... not automatic traning that not good pay isk like salary and people will help newbie for isk .... i think and please a safe environnement for help us ... now high sec its dangerous for 1 years and less players sorry my english its my second language and its not good :(
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:32:00 - [115] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 10/03/2008 20:36:02 Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 10/03/2008 20:34:10 op: signed, as i signed eversingle topic about this. But I'd like something in return, either free skillbooks, free sp to invest in, free standing, free "something in relation with f(a/i)ctional warfare" or free anything. I mean I could not say bye to my learning time like this. Me and my secound account (~ 15Ç x 4) Imagine a 2 month newbie. CCP comes out and say "hi guys, guess what we are giving you free learnings NOW". The newbie : "well, I just trained two month for nothing.". Learning skills is one of the flaws in Eve. The game is allready long to learn irl, why the new player have to take a sp/time buffer in the teeth too ? CCP is shooting themselves in the foot with these skills ! 2isk
Ioci Gallente Ioci Exploration	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:33:00 - [116] The idea that you should train learning skills for a noob is and always was bad advice, IMO. They make a huge difference at the level 5 and in some cases 4 level but for noobs, getting access to as many fittings as possible should be the priority. Most nooblets want in that Cruiser. They ignore the advice anyway and good on them. I don't remember being able to train Adv Mem and Will at 4, back in the day. I think they have softened this up enough.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:40:00 - [117] Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Originally by: George Techeye Originally by: Brainless Bimbo How your base learning skills are set depends on your build, noobs who are told train learning first and actually do it are quite frankly a waste of space, if they can't figure out a flexiable plan they deserve to die to a few drones in the first weeks. Learning skills are for when your logged off and won't be back for about for 12 hours or so, in your first month you need to get a balanced skill set, so most of your time is on rank 1's and 2's at low levels that only take a few hours. Stupid is as stupid says and stupid does, sticking to what evemon tells you is not playing a game its being a machine following a program blindly, no intelligence or criticial thought required, i came to eve to escape that mentaility, thank god they do leave, harsh but thats eve isn't it!. A lot of people spend more time in eve mon than in eve online trying to adjust and schedule and fit and modify. There is something inherently wrong with a game that actually fosters that approach. As so many people have said before and will continue to say as long as Eve-Online is a slave to the Training time-sink approach aboe all else, "It's the best game i never play." So you admit they are stupid, you realise that you would lose attribute points too, your 30 days to lvl 5 will suddenly be 45+ days to use that nice tech 2 stuff you want, you consider that, umm smart move eh!. You understand that Intelligence is related to Adaptability, do you want to play with people that can adapt or people that whine 24/7 because they want to play a different game but can't be arsed to go find it. I already stated how I would adress the problem in an earlier response. To paraphrase myself 1. Max training skills for everyone. 2. Give trining time credit for training skills already trained to those who have, and allow them to move that time onto other skills or store it for upcoming new skills. Your assumptions are incomplete and faulty because you didnt read my earlier post in this thread before coming to the conclusion that somehow I was advocating removing training skills and subsequently increase training time as a result.
George Techeye	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:42:00 - [118] Originally by: theteck what you said Your english may not be excellent but your reasoning is superb.
Bohoba Caldari dragons nest imPure.	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:43:00 - [119] all these wine and no sugestions skill training is why I stay in the game if it turns to a you got to kill xxxx before you can operate that mod a grinding power lvl game I would have to give it up that is not my game eve is one of a kind you guys sound like wow players please leave find another game and to the op hehe go play wow or f2 bet you bounce right back here lol Windows VistaÖ Ultimate x64-based PC Gigabyte X38-DQ6 Processor Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Extreme CPU Q6850 Memory 4,093.69 MB 2X Crossfire ASUS EAH3870/G/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 3870 512MB
Dramund Amarr Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.10 20:45:00 - [120] Originally by: theteck on 10 people 8 leave because learning its to long after 1 pay month Well they got the wrong info here, I woulda quit too if it took a month but it only takes 1 week of training to set yourself for over 200 days, 2 weeks to set yourself for a year

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