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View from 70+ sp player: remove all learning skills from game

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Roxanna Kell FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:52:00 - [241] As long as we get compensated for the 2.5 to 5.3msp we have trained in learning, i would say no. Quote: You are what you are, fool
Proazatica	Posted - 2008.03.11 12:58:00 - [242] /signed wholeheartedly As a new player (7 weeks) I agree that the learning skills are both useless and a daunting time consumer for new folks. Get rid of them, and give the SP back to be spent as the user sees fit. Would be the single best thing you could do to keep new players in this game.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:00:00 - [243] Originally by: Proazatica Would be the single best thing you could do to keep new players in this game. The game isn't really suited to people who think like that anyway to be honest. Why pander to them? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:04:00 - [244] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Proazatica Would be the single best thing you could do to keep new players in this game. The game isn't really suited to people who think like that anyway to be honest. Why pander to them? Nonsense. What EvE needs more of is instant gratification junkies who have learned to whine to get their way. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Zone Zella Caldari Around the moon and back	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:05:00 - [245] Originally by: Proazatica /signed wholeheartedly As a new player (7 weeks) I agree that the learning skills are both useless and a daunting time consumer for new folks. Get rid of them, and give the SP back to be spent as the user sees fit. Would be the single best thing you could do to keep new players in this game. If you feel that way about learning skills, why don't you just avoid them.. no reason for removing them since me (and probably a lot of other people) find them very useful and the total opposite of a time consumer, they save more time then they consume.
Dracon Zethera Gallente Nexus Analytics Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:08:00 - [246] And what about all the people who ended up training learning skills up and then all of a sudden 2 months of training just gets removed. I wouldn't be too happy, especially since my character hasn't even broken 10mil SP. It would be like pushing my character back 2 months in time. If learning skills are removed I want my SP's to put where ever I want.
Tellnan Matkiel	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:08:00 - [247] Edited by: Tellnan Matkiel on 11/03/2008 13:09:33 It seems to me many people are arguing to lose Learning skills because it perpetuates the gap between older and newer characters. What they fail to see is that gap would remain regardless. I have been playing this game for 19 days. Say someone has 50million more SP than I do. Lose the learning skills and do whatever you are going to do. In one year's time, that person will still have 50million more SP than I would, give or take a little variation. In other words, this argument has a terminal and fatal flaw at its heart. I find it utterly worthless. Also, what wasted time? What fun tax? Sorry, this does not jibe with my experience. I have just been playing, as I said, 19 days. I have a simple system. In my off-game times I alternate between learning skills and other skills. That is to say, last night I was working away at Gallente Frigate IV. Tonight my character will be on Logic IV. Tomorrow night I will set it to Gallente Frigate IV, and on Thursday night to Logic 4 again. During game time I am learning a whole host of non-learning skills. Thus I advance both ways. I have plenty of fun doing so, and also get to see a definite pay-off for the time I invest in the learning skills. Whether or not a particular investment of time and ISK is personally worthwhile at any particular time is part and parcel of Eve, and I see no reason to mollycoddle those unable to make this simple judgement. It is not broken, it does not need fixing. New players who burnout though a misguided effort at getting all the learning skills to 5 straight away would probably, in my opinion, just burn themselves out doing something else equally idiotic.
Tekashi Kovacs	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:12:00 - [248] Agree. 1.Remove learning skills then set all attributes at base +5+5 (basic+advanced) for everyone. 2.Give SPs back to people who trained them.
Dramund Amarr Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:16:00 - [249] As far as "committing to faster SP" goes, I don't think learning skills are that bad at all. Once they are done, you get to keep them. I think the bigger mistake is implants; its safe to say you can play EvE for a long time and never have every skill you want, so many people will plug in expensive implants - which would be okay if it didn't then make them terrified of PvP. When I think about going into low/null sec as a new player, I'm not worried about losing my cheap ship, I'm worried about losing the implants (which people love to smartbomb into oblivion). I scraped up ISK so I could get at least 200k more SP per month, which is quite a difference and you need them basic skills to PvP. In short: Implants are the silent carebear creators.
Zone Zella Caldari Around the moon and back	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:21:00 - [250] Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs Agree. 1.Remove learning skills then set all attributes at base +5+5 (basic+advanced) for everyone. 2.Give SPs back to people who trained them. Ok give everyone 255mil SP to distribute freely then. I mean its also a drag to train engineering and electronics to lvl 5, which are skills of equal importance.. so why not give those skills to everyone? Same goes for a LOT of other skills.

Tekashi Kovacs	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:32:00 - [251] Edited by: Tekashi Kovacs on 11/03/2008 13:33:39 Originally by: Zone Zella Ok give everyone 255mil SP to distribute freely then. I mean its also a drag to train engineering and electronics to lvl 5, which are skills of equal importance.. so why not give those skills to everyone? Same goes for a LOT of other skills. Are u masochist? Ok then, if you like to train slower (sic!) then set attributes at base for everyone! Everything will be slower, the game will last 20 years longer. BTW What did you lose by not having engineering and electronics skills at 5? I mean what other skill trained slower because of this?
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:34:00 - [252] Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs BTW What did you lose by not having engineering and electronics skills at 5? I mean what other skill trained slower cause of this? Some skills will not traid at all until you have those skills at lvl5, so in some respects they are worse than learning skills? Or is that not your arguement? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Guttripper	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:48:00 - [253] If the learning skills were removed, then what skill set(s) would be removed next? "Everyone flies a ship, so ship related skills should just be set to five and have them removed." "Everyone has to shoot some version of a weapon, so remove the whole gunnery skill set and set them all to five." The learning skill set is a choice of skills like any other skills within the game. A pilot puts in the required time and should gleam the reward. The learning skill tree offers shorter training sessions over a long extended period of time - nothing instant, much less with gratification. Yet other skill sets offer something immediately. Learn how to fly a certain race's cruiser ship and off you're flying. Or learn how to expand your social skills and your agent offers higher amounts of credits for a mission. But advance your charisma... and next time you learn a leadership skill, you saved yourself a small amount of time. To play devil's advocate for a moment, if I remember correctly, the one individual that made the comment during the tournament was vice president of marketing or sales (???). How to subtly extend subscriptions but by having longer training periods. Instead of having 240 days of planned training through EveMon with the learning skills finished, remove that tree and suddenly the same planned skills are closer to 300+ days. Two extra months of subscriptions for the same desired effects. Of course, a benefit would be a slow down affect of pilots turning towards capital ships as a means of gaming. And if you were a new player and you wanted to fly the big, big, big ships and then realized that instead of x months, the total training time is now one year plus x months, well, I believe that would turn players off more than ~grinding~ through the learning tree.
Phrixus Zephyr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:53:00 - [254] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Draygo Korvan Implants are one thing. They have benifits other than just attributes. There is a couple things you can do here: Give everyone +10 in every attribute and +10% or leave the basic learning skill in place. Refund SP for depreciated skills: The refund should not be instant but double training time until you have gained back twice as much SP. This thread so far is the elitists vs everyone else. The learning skills were a mistake and they should be fixed. Elitists are using the age old excuse that because they suffered through it, you should to! So I suppose if you cut your arm off, I should to? Or if you handicapped yourself voluntarially I should to? Yea sure I'm sitting at 12m sp, 20% of which is learning skills. I'm sorry mr elitist. You have been in the game far longer, and are approaching 100m sp. Even with a caldari alchua build and +5 implants I will never catch up to you before I die in real life unless you quit the game. So you suffered for your advantage. Your advantage is permament, you will always have more SP (assuming you keep playing and dont do anything real stupid repeativly with an alpha clone) than this character. So Avon, give me something that I can somehow catch up to you, or lower the skill grind so I can get in ships faster. And Avon, assuming you started from the very beginning: this means you were competing against people that were at most around your skill point level. You weren't flying frigates against battleships. You weren't flying cruisers against titans. Newbies have a lot to compete against, giving them a fairer chance should be done. Seriously, the I suffered you SHOULD suffer arguement is age old, drop it. I missing the part where you explain in detail why exactly joining the game later than me entitles you to an easier experience? If there were no skillcaps in Eve I might be more sympathetic to your whining, but there are. My SP total does not give me an ever increasing advantage, it gives me diversity. There are only so many SP's that I can use when flying a rifter or a raven, the rest are pretty much redundant at that time. Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? As it stands now, a new player can reach the stage I am at faster than was possible for me. Is that not enough? If we get the skillpoints we have already trained in learning, whats the difference? Learning skills are a stupid idea, they've always been a stupid idea and personally i'd rather do away with them so nobody else has to go through with it and i can have 1.8mil Sps in something more useful.
SiJira	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:55:00 - [255] news break more sp and bigger ships doesnt mean instant win what people need to do is to stop telling newbs to get into a cruiser battlecruiser or battleship and to skip frigates Trashed sig, Shark was here
Tekashi Kovacs	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:58:00 - [256] Originally by: Avon Some skills will not traid at all until you have those skills at lvl5, so in some respects they are worse than learning skills? Or is that not your arguement? Ok, but in opposition to learning skills, by not having them at 5 you haven't lose SPs. Removing learning skills is first. Setting attributes at same level for everyone is totally different thing. There is no difference if you set them at base or base+10 - except that, the game will last longer. Difference between new and old players will be still existant because vets got SPs that newbies don't. Learning speed will be same for everyone - the only thing this would change is remove two useless months of skilling for new players.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.03.11 13:59:00 - [257] Edited by: Avon on 11/03/2008 14:00:17 Originally by: Phrixus Zephyr If we get the skillpoints we have already trained in learning, whats the difference? Learning skills are a stupid idea, they've always been a stupid idea and personally i'd rather do away with them so nobody else has to go through with it and i can have 1.8mil Sps in something more useful. So I should be made relatively worse off because some new people don't want to be treated the same as everyone else? Or are you going to compensate everyone for all the SP's they missed out on for any skills they trained before the advanced learning skills were introduced? Of course not, because you aren't interested in being fair, no matter how much you pretend otherwise. New characters start with more SP's, more ISK, and can increase their attributes faster and higher than old players could. What more do they need, the moon on a stick? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Zone Zella Caldari Around the moon and back	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:11:00 - [258] Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs Originally by: Avon Some skills will not traid at all until you have those skills at lvl5, so in some respects they are worse than learning skills? Or is that not your arguement? Ok, but in opposition to learning skills, by not having them at 5 you haven't lose SPs. Removing learning skills is first. Setting attributes at same level for everyone is totally different thing. There is no difference if you set them at base or base+10 - except that, the game will last longer. Difference between new and old players will be still existant because vets got SPs that newbies don't. Learning speed will be same for everyone - the only thing this would change is remove two useless months of skilling for new players. Well if you class tranining for learning skills as useless, then why not just avoid them?? Like i said before, learning skills are far from useless, and about equal in value to a lot of other skills wich according to everyone that wants them removed should then also be removed. This is about having the option to improve your training time or not, just like the option to train for caldari or minmatar.
Tekashi Kovacs	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:34:00 - [259] Originally by: Zone Zella Well if you class tranining for learning skills as useless, then why not just avoid them?? Like i said before, learning skills are far from useless, and about equal in value to a lot of other skills wich according to everyone that wants them removed should then also be removed. This is about having the option to improve your training time or not, just like the option to train for caldari or minmatar. They have been made as option, but they are "must have" now. You will be saying they are option, but everyone have/will have them. You will not change it by saying that they are option, because they are not. So while EVERYONE trains them, whats the advantage in having them? They give nothing, just waste of time.
Zone Zella Caldari Around the moon and back	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:48:00 - [260] Originally by: Tekashi Kovacs Originally by: Zone Zella Well if you class tranining for learning skills as useless, then why not just avoid them?? Like i said before, learning skills are far from useless, and about equal in value to a lot of other skills wich according to everyone that wants them removed should then also be removed. This is about having the option to improve your training time or not, just like the option to train for caldari or minmatar. They have been made as option, but they are "must have" now. You will be saying they are option, but everyone have/will have them. You will not change it by saying that they are option, because they are not. So while EVERYONE trains them, whats the advantage in having them? They give nothing, just waste of time. Same goes for a LOT of other skills, they are simply mandatory to have a good character, so what your suggesting is that those skills are next? It could be said of any skill tbh, if you play this game long enough you will end up having to train every skill or choose not to train at all, so in about a few years will we have the same discussion about engineering and electronics or any other skill for that matter?

Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:55:00 - [261] Originally by: Avon Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? Eventually, and with less time and effort. Why? Let's say CCP keeps rolling out high-SP stuff like Titans or new T3 gear, without changing the time it takes to obtain those items. New players eventually will take one look at the YEARS of committment it takes to fly a single competitive ship and say "forget it". UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players.
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2008.03.11 14:59:00 - [262] Originally by: Zero Target Originally by: Avon Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? Eventually, and with less time and effort. Why? Let's say CCP keeps rolling out high-SP stuff like Titans or new T3 gear, without changing the time it takes to obtain those items. New players eventually will take one look at the YEARS of committment it takes to fly a single competitive ship and say "forget it". UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players. In WoW a high level character always kill a low level one with little to no effort, that's not the case in EVE, I rest my case, as well as my WoW account. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:02:00 - [263] essentially, removing learning skills will make it much harder for new players to get into capships and other long-term stuff. ignoring all the nonsense about every new player feeling compelled to spend a couple of months doing learning skills, this would be the only practical change. i guess it depends on whether this would be a good or a bad thing. Signature removed. Too large and flashing signatures are not really permitted. Navigator
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:04:00 - [264] Originally by: Hippy Dave Edited by: Hippy Dave on 11/03/2008 05:24:54 Originally by: Zero Target Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 04:34:51 Please read the whole thread, no one's suggesting REDUCING attributes, but rather boosting everyone's attributes and removing the learning skills so new players don't have to spend months training them, which they all do and usually very early if they're smart. Yeah nice way to quote two tiny portions of my post to illustrate your point and discount the other points which were probably more valid. I didn't discount your other points, they had been made multiple times in the thread already, which you would know if you read the thread as I advised. Originally by: Hippy Dave Originally by: Zero Target I hardly think a Caldari dreadnought pilot is a "carbon copy" of a Minmatar inty pilot just because they have the same attributes, do you? No but his STATS would be you utter fool, dont try and be clever when your point is clearly flawed I never said their skills would be the same did I No, you said if characters had the same attributes that they would be "carbon copies" of each other, which is ludicrous as I pointed out. And there's no need for name calling. On that point, does anyone really care what their attributes are besides how they affect your learning time? Do people compare attributes for e-peen purposes? Do you fly your attributes around in space for people to see, or do they show up in your forum posts? If CCP got rid of attributes entirely and kept / boosted our skill learning times, would anyone really care?
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:06:00 - [265] Originally by: Zero Target UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players. i reckon 6-10 months is enough to max out any of the basic shiptypes for any one race. that's how long it takes for a new player to catch up with an old player on a pure skill:skill basis. to fly a tackler, which can hold down a ship worth billions piloted by a player who's been in the game since beta takes something like three days. sure, the new player won't be able to hop in a different class of ship and compete, but that's the benefit of being an 'old' character in eve. Signature removed. Too large and flashing signatures are not really permitted. Navigator
Zero Target Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:07:00 - [266] Edited by: Zero Target on 11/03/2008 15:08:01 Originally by: Danton Marcellus Originally by: Zero Target Originally by: Avon Are you honestly trying to tell me that someone joining Eve today should be able to do all the things that an "elitist" veteran can immediately? Or quickly? Or eventually? Or after investing the same amount of time and effort? Eventually, and with less time and effort. Why? Let's say CCP keeps rolling out high-SP stuff like Titans or new T3 gear, without changing the time it takes to obtain those items. New players eventually will take one look at the YEARS of committment it takes to fly a single competitive ship and say "forget it". UO, EQ, EQ2 (for what it's worth) and WoW all evolved over time to allow new players to get the good stuff faster and to ensure they could be competitive with veterans, otherwise you will not be able to recruit new players. In WoW a high level character always kill a low level one with little to no effort, that's not the case in EVE, I rest my case, as well as my WoW account. The "good stuff" I was referring to is endgame gear, levels have nothing to do with it as in WoW and other MMOs you typically spend a month leveling then potentially YEARS playing the same max-level toon at endgame. Sort of like training learning skills in EVE.
Dramund Amarr Atonement Arms	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:12:00 - [267] Originally by: Zero Target The "good stuff" I was referring to is endgame gear, levels have nothing to do with it as in WoW and other MMOs you typically spend a month leveling then potentially YEARS playing the same max-level toon at endgame. Sort of like training learning skills in EVE. This is pretty much the way I looked at it. In every MMORPG you have to grind to get to the promised land known as "end-game" and WoW's month is extremely short compared to most others. EvE, of course, gets the cake because you don't have to spend that month on your computer going (target),1,2,2,1,2,2,3,1 over and over again all day
ry ry StateCorp Insurgency	Posted - 2008.03.11 15:22:00 - [268] Edited by: ry ry on 11/03/2008 15:23:11 aye, you forgot the 'F' before the numbers. deadspace/faction/officer loot are Eve's 'epics' and they are obtained, by and large, but grinding your ******* arse off day after day. Signature removed. Too large and flashing signatures are not really permitted. Navigator
Oosel Nightmare Holdings Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:00:00 - [269] i really hope ccp fianlly do away with the current system then i can finally cancel my account as thats the only reason i still pay my monthly subs.....once they do i can stop paying and then have a look every now and again without having to worry about starting over billions of isk and tons of ships still doesnt wanna make me pvp
Djinn Phluxx	Posted - 2008.03.11 16:53:00 - [270] This argument about skill training time applies to all skills. At what point do we start saying, "20 days is too long for a level 5 skill"... Or..."10 days is too long for a level 5 skill". When do we start saying every skill takes too long? Personally, I think learning skills are the best of the bunch because you don't HAVE to train them. If I want to use heavy missile launcher II mods...I don't need to train perception to 4. I DO have to train heavy missiles to 5, though. My reaction was pretty much the opposite when I started. I thought it took a long time to train to 5 and I was HAPPY we had learning skills to cut the time down. Take those away and you're adding a substantial amount of time (which is what you're complaining about, right? Taking too long?) onto learning new stuff unless you plan on just GIVING people higher attributes. That'd be kinda cheesy, though...this is supposed to be a hard core, not for pussies PVP, harsh space game and we're talking about making it nice and easy. LOL



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