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3.6 Million Dollar per year isk seller fingered... its CCP!

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Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:24:00 - [1] Another CCP sugar coated dev blog regarding the "nasty evil isk sellers" had the usual couple of things in it that didnt sit quite right. There was an odor of something fishy. And i dont mean the tuna and anchovie that drips out of the end of their free CCP gourmet rolls and splatters all over their keyboard. So I jumped on over to the Timecode Bizaree and took a look at the volumes of cards that were being trafficd. Remember, these are not cards bought by a player to take advantage of exchange rates to fund their own subscriptions. They are bought by players to lazy or incompetant or lackluster to earn the isk for themselves in game - and instead take the shortcut to riches - gaining a huge advantage over players who choose the honest in game route to slowley building up their empires. I took a look at one random page of posts. In that page, 36 time codes were sold with an average value of 258 million isk each. Over 9 Billion isk sold on the page. 1100 dollars US worth of codes. Thats quite a lot of isk being sold you might think.... well here is the kicker. There are 11 similar pages for the day A quick check of the other pages revealed a similar amount being sold each page. A quick check through the year also yielded similar amounts. Thats 10 thousand dollars a day flowing into CCPs coffers. 3.5 million dollars a year. Its also 90 Billion isk flowing unearned into peoples coffers per day - rubbishing CCP Gimnis statement that Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory. Quote: Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money. They might want to consider that their own 'legal secure method' gives people the opportunity to do just that. In a war with another corporation and lose your carrier in a hard thought out and bitterly fought out engagement with some players who dont buy isk? Simply flog 5 GTC and get another. Use it tommorow and its a slap in their face tee-hee. Isnt life fun. Its a further indication of how business rules over ethics for many at CCP - despite their protestations. This is all well and good. CCP is a business - in it to make money. They create a good product. Many aspects of the game are very good. Their GM's in particular have been top notch in all my dealings with them. Just dont go all holier then thou on us and release patronising dev posts like that one - when your rolling in bought isk dollars. SKUNK
Vitrael Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:26:00 - [2] Edited by: Vitrael on 09/04/2008 00:34:35 Isk traded from user to GTC buyer = EULA okey! Isk traded from farmer to real-money payer = EULA not-okey! You agreed to the EULA or you wouldn't be here. Discussion over. Quote: CCP endorse buying your way to victory It's important that I note the fact that: MOAR ISK != Victory
Havohej The Defias Brotherhood ANTHRAX DEATH	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:27:00 - [3] This one, in light of the other two, provides no new ideas to the discussion... might as well delete your OP here and post it in Akita T's thread tbh. л┬╥▬─ ~ ~ ~
Batwigg B and D	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Batwigg on 09/04/2008 00:29:19 There's two very important differences. Buy from friendly chinese farmers, and you are responsible for a huge amount of macro miners, macro ratters, account hackers, and other unsaviory people. Buy a GTC, and you just let someone else play for another month, and did not support macros and other ISK farming related vermin. E: He did pretty much say that allowing GTC trades like this was a necessary evil, as such a huge amount of players rely on it to play the game.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:29:00 - [5] I'm sorry what players need all this time play eve? they must be set.
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:30:00 - [6] good job if ccp really earns 3.5 mil a year from it. Join The Fight With Promo Today View The North Star!
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:32:00 - [7] I would rather 90 bil isk get moved from player to player then 90 bil isk get injected into the game from macros and the like. The GTC program is CCP's best weapon of fighting isk sellers and macroers/farmers and the like. Originally by: Meridius Dex I could actually fit a Thorax WITH LASERS and get better DPS, better speed, better tank and - wait for it - better cap stability
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:33:00 - [8] Edited by: Quelque Chose on 09/04/2008 00:33:53 Originally by: Le Skunk If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory. Current average for 30 day GTC is about 160 mil. 30 day gtc costs $15 US. 90bn ISK = ~600 gtc = $9000 US. Please show me the guy who spends 9 grand a day on a video game as I need somebody new to mooch off of.
Tzar'rim Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:34:00 - [9] As I stated in that other post, GTC is no better than RMT, it's just better for CCP who sugarcoat it with some nice PR. And people actually believe it.
ceyriot Crimson Rebellion Cold Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:35:00 - [10] Edited by: ceyriot on 09/04/2008 00:35:18 Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn I would rather 90 bil isk get moved from player to player then 90 bil isk get injected into the game from macros and the like. The GTC program is CCP's best weapon of fighting isk sellers and macroers/farmers and the like. Yeah, the way i look at it is this... IT IS 90B ISK NOT BEING BOUGHT FROM ISK FARMERS!!! Faction Store
ZenTex Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:35:00 - [11] Quote: Remember, these are not cards bought by a player to take advantage of exchange rates to fund their own subscriptions. They are bought by players to lazy or incompetant or lackluster to earn the isk for themselves in game And bought by players with their hard earned isk to pay for their accounts... In the end the money goes there where it belongs, to CCP instead of to isk sellers, and in the process succesful players can play for free! Isk farming can never be weeded out, not even by a crusade against isk farmers. This method is the best alternative out there IMHO. There's little a sledgehammer can't fix. If you can't fix it, you need a bigger sledgehammer. If it's unfixable, blame CCP. :p
Batwigg B and D	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:37:00 - [12] Originally by: ZenTex Quote: Remember, these are not cards bought by a player to take advantage of exchange rates to fund their own subscriptions. They are bought by players to lazy or incompetant or lackluster to earn the isk for themselves in game And bought by players with their hard earned isk to pay for their accounts... In the end the money goes there where it belongs, to CCP instead of to isk sellers, and in the process succesful players can play for free! Isk farming can never be weeded out, not even by a crusade against isk farmers. This method is the best alternative out there IMHO. This man is wise. Listen to him.
Lumy Templars of Space Black Star Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:40:00 - [13] OMG, CCP is earning 3.5 million USD a year by selling subscription (game time to be more exact) through players. The horror, THE HORROR!!!
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:41:00 - [14] Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 00:42:15 Originally by: Quelque Chose Edited by: Quelque Chose on 09/04/2008 00:33:53 Originally by: Le Skunk If you bought enough codes, you could shift 90 billion isk a day. "Supply and demand" would not be affected in the slightest. CCP endorse buying your way to victory. Current average for 30 day GTC is about 160 mil. 30 day gtc costs $15 US. 90bn ISK = ~600 gtc = $9000 US. Please show me the guy who spends 9 grand a day on a video game as I need somebody new to mooch off of. CCP Grimmi says: Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. This is patently incorrect. An individual CAN use the secure system to gather tens of billions of isk AND upset the game balance. CCP Grimmi is trying to convey the impression that one of the major difference in what happens with the isk selling sites and what ccp are doing is that nobody could possibly abuse it. This is a falsehood. Originally by: "ccp" Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money. If people have (as this suggests) banded together and used real life moeny in order to fuel a war (or the all encomposing other activiteis) and this is lambasted by CCP as something 'evil and wrong' then why are they activley promoting the means to do exaclty the same thing in a dev blog. Looking thourgh the forums you regually see people seeling 10 or 20 GTC in one go. MOre then enough to 'Fund a war'. SKUNK
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate Kissaki Republic	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:46:00 - [15] Originally by: Tzar'rim As I stated in that other post, GTC is no better than RMT, it's just better for CCP who sugarcoat it with some nice PR. And people actually believe it. It's also better for just about all of eve who have to deal with fewer macros, phishing attempts and other such a*s-hattery. RMT=Support for bots GTC=Support for CCP TBQH I prefer the thought of the owners of the game profiting from any isk buying that goes on, and CCP lining their wallets doesn't cause systems to be mined out by bot miners... Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
KeeperOf Truth Hedion University	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:49:00 - [16] Please take a look at the threads linked below. Is it a negative PR campaign started against CCP by isk sellers ? Suddenly we started to see many threads about it at the same time. Besides this one, here is two other threads started today.. Thread 1 Thread 2
Leyla Peace Big Guns Inc. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:50:00 - [17] Hmm some fast math say that if your numbers are correct almoste 18k 30 day gametime cards are sold each month (or atleast equal game time). Thats a large part of the player base. Also remember its not like one player can look at this and say "hey this means i can sell 18,000 gtc a month" prices will fall if more players sell gtc. I¦m not sure but i Think a 30 day gtc once sold for 210 milion,
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Cambarus TBQH I prefer the thought of the owners of the game profiting from any isk buying that goes on, and CCP lining their wallets doesn't cause systems to be mined out by bot miners... This is a perfectly fine standpoint to take. So why is CCP chugning out such patently untrue propoganda in their dev blogs. Why cant they give the playerbase it straight 1) We (CCP) want money in our pockets 2) You can buy as much isk from us as you could possibly need for any purpose you like if you are prepared to spend enough money on it (via secure GTC) 3) We dont care about any advantage you get over other 'in game honest' players 4) Doing the above will cut out macro miners and ensure the continuation of the game development. There is nothing at all wrong with any of the above. I would not condemn them for it if they came out with it straight. Instead they either keep quiet or muddy the waters with patronising and innacurate dev blogs. SKUNK
Overwhelmed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:52:00 - [19] You can make a twin forum alt with me and call it "Overreacted". To be quick: X amount of players subscribe for Y time. Regardless of GTCs traded, they pay the same amount. One person technically pays for more than one account on behalf of someone else. No, the system can't be abused. If you've ever done a secure GTC trade, you don't receive the number; it adds the game time directly to your account so you can't resell it. Tarminic already mentioned the other bad things RMTs can do, above all else inflation. EVE Online is the only MMORPG where if you convert the in-game currency to dollars, its the only game where a regular player can farm $4 or more per hour worth of currency. In other games, farmers flood the system so thoroughly that you'd be lucky to make 25 cents per hour. There is no horrible harm done through this system. At its worst, you can think of it as a sketchy blackmarket quite appropriate to EVE. Maybe GTCs are "favors" in roleplaying terms or some kind of wicked drug only select few stumble across. There are a million ways to explain it away, none of which actually harm the economy. You'll also notice it bends quickly if people try to flood it. The rich guy with 20 GTCs usually had to lower them to bargain prices to get rid of them. ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Quelque Chose University of Caille	Posted - 2008.04.09 00:58:00 - [20] Edited by: Quelque Chose on 09/04/2008 01:04:01 Originally by: Le Skunk CCP Grimmi says: Quote: Supply and demand dictates that it would be very difficult for an individual to gather tens of billions of ISK with the secure system and thus game balance will not be upset. This is patently incorrect. An individual CAN use the secure system to gather tens of billions of isk AND upset the game balance. CCP Grimmi is trying to convey the impression that one of the major difference in what happens with the isk selling sites and what ccp are doing is that nobody could possibly abuse it. This is a falsehood. You've definitely got a point if you read the words "very difficult" as "impossible." Furthermore GTC trading is limited by demand for GTCs, which is a lot lower than demand for ISK. Quote: Originally by: "ccp" Corporations, or even Alliances, should not be able to fuel their wars and other activities like they have done in a number of cases with ISK bought for real world money. If people have (as this suggests) banded together and used real life moeny in order to fuel a war (or the all encomposing other activiteis) and this is lambasted by CCP as something 'evil and wrong' then why are they activley promoting the means to do exaclty the same thing in a dev blog. Looking thourgh the forums you regually see people seeling 10 or 20 GTC in one go. MOre then enough to 'Fund a war'. SKUNK 20x 30 day GTC = 3.6 bn. That might be enough to fund some rinky- dink empire griefing corp but if you look at most active (ie, "at war") 0.0 killboards you'll find that's not really so much. How much does a Titan cost these days? Meanwhile 20x 30 day GTC is 1/2 my rent. I find it particularly hilarious that if you read GD regularly you'll find a raft of Europeans screaming that they're getting ripped off by exchange rates at $20 US/ month AND a gang of people complaining that 15x that amount is too cheap a price for 3 freighters. In a perfect world this wouldn't happen, but if it cuts into the, uh ahem pacific rim ISK market then I'm for it tbh.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:01:00 - [21] Originally by: Le Skunk Just dont go all holier then thou on us and release patronising dev posts like that one - when you yourself are rolling in "evil" bought isk dollars. I half-hartedly agree with the first part of this small part of your entire OP. The one bad thing CCP did was to sugar-coat the fact that selling GTCs is still buying ISK. We all know full well that the only differences (for an ISK buyer) between selling GTCs and buying ISK from a RMTer are: * the inconvenience factor for GTCs opposed to the risk factor for RMT * the ISK a certain amount of money buys (lower if GTCs are used, higher if RMT is used) But here ends all agreement I can have with your point of view. There's plenty of plus sides for allowing GTC trade, and reducing RMT occurences is one of them. A more agressive awareness campaign should be conducted, one that will explain in great detail why exactly GTC-for-ISK is so much better than USD-for-ISK for the game economy, the community as a whole and so on. At no point should they try to make it sound as if somebody couldn't wage excessively disadvantageous wars, if only they are willing to waste enough real-life money (but the fact that via GTC it costs them much more SHOULD be stressed out). The reason why this awareness campaign is needed ? Because, apparently, people STILL can't tell what the fundamental differences between GTC and RMT are. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5.
Kyra Felann Noir.	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:03:00 - [22] IMO the primary difference between buying/selling GTCs and buying/farming ISK to sell straight up is that the people that make enough ISK to buy a GTC aren't making money off of it (at least not directly). They are getting game-time (which saves them RL money). There are farmers in every MMO in existence than farm money as their RL job. Buying a GTC for ISK is not the same. The money changes hands between players and CCP makes money from GTCs. Everyone's happy (except ISK sellers and apparently the whiner that started this thread).
Overwhelmed Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Kyra Felann IMO the primary difference between buying/selling GTCs and buying/farming ISK to sell straight up is that the people that make enough ISK to buy a GTC aren't making money off of it (at least not directly). They are getting game-time (which saves them RL money). There are farmers in every MMO in existence than farm money as their RL job. Buying a GTC for ISK is not the same. The money changes hands between players and CCP makes money from GTCs. Everyone's happy (except ISK sellers and apparently the whiner that started this thread). He's apparently upset because its still an "unfair" transaction of ISK from one player to another; you know something that never happens in EVE otherwise. ---------------------------------------------------------- Posting And You Disclaimer: This is a meta-game alt for meta-game discussions.
Sim'a Nuk Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Le Skunk Looking thourgh the forums you regually see people seeling 10 or 20 GTC in one go. MOre then enough to 'Fund a war'. SKUNK Maybe they should spend that money on a good therapist
Woodwraith Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:17:00 - [25] Quote: and instead take the shortcut to riches - gaining a huge advantage over players who choose the honest in game route to slowley building up their empires. I dont have time to sit and grind and market wh****/rat/mission whatever isk income people have. I work 50+ hours a week. your buying a month off of someone who has the time to make isk through in-game means and not the money out of game to subscribe. seriously, are we supposed to believe people are buying carriers on their PayPal accounts? Could you find something better to troll?
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:21:00 - [26] Edited by: Ephemeron on 09/04/2008 01:24:37 I think regulation rules are in order. No account should be allowed to sell more than 180 days worth of time codes per month. There is nothing wrong with one small guy helping another one. Some people depend on these time codes. But when this trading becomes a massive industry, it is a serious problem. We should not allow people to sell dozens of time codes every month. Regulate the sales! edit: if CCP really cares about the people who can't afford to pay real money, CCP should sell the time codes for isk. The extra income CCP generates when time codes are sold on industrial scales is not worth the damage to the game.
Ranger 1 Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:25:00 - [27] Woodwraith, these folks are not exactly the brightest stars in the constellation... ya know what I mean? It reminds me of a very old saying: You buy them books, and buy them books, and all they do, is eat the pages.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.09 01:36:00 - [28] Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 01:36:17 Originally by: Woodwraith I dont have time to sit and grind and market wh**/rat/mission whatever isk income people have. I work 50+ hours a week. your buying a month off of someone who has the time to make isk through in-game means and not the money out of game to subscribe. Lets imagine you decide to take up tennis. And enter a local league. Would you storm in with your wallet out saying "Hey nerds. I work a 50 hour week man. And i aint got time to practice. So im going to pay 2 grand right now to win the trophy. Horray im the winner. Right im off. Taxi to the squash club. And make it snappy! dont you know i work a 50 hour week." Quote:** seriously, are we supposed to believe people are buying carriers on their PayPal accounts? This shows your ignorance of the issue. Yes people do buy carriers on their paypal accounts. People sell 10 or 20 or 30 GTC in one sitting. In fact heres one selling 15 at a time from the front page of the GTC bizarre - Free bump for him. Get em while they are hot. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=744843 Nothing wrong with what hes doing. Its all CCP legal. SKUNK
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:00:00 - [29] Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 02:00:32 Edited by: Le Skunk on 09/04/2008 02:00:11 Originally by: Akita T I half-hartedly agree with the first part of this small part of your entire OP. The one bad thing CCP did was to sugar-coat the fact that selling GTCs is still buying ISK. We all know full well that the only differences (for an ISK buyer) between selling GTCs and buying ISK from a RMTer are: * the inconvenience factor for GTCs opposed to the risk factor for RMT * the ISK a certain amount of money buys (lower if GTCs are used, higher if RMT is used) But here ends all agreement I can have with your point of view. There's plenty of plus sides for allowing GTC trade, and reducing RMT occurences is one of them. A more agressive awareness campaign should be conducted, one that will explain in great detail why exactly GTC-for-ISK is so much better than USD-for-ISK for the game economy, the community as a whole and so on. At no point should they try to make it sound as if somebody couldn't wage excessively disadvantageous wars, if only they are willing to waste enough real-life money (but the fact that via GTC it costs them much more SHOULD be stressed out). The reason why this awareness campaign is needed ? Because, apparently, people STILL can't tell what the fundamental differences between GTC and RMT are. My argument was with the patronising, innacurate and misleading DEV post. They could end all debate by simply coming out and being honest about things instead of 'sugar coating' their business strategy. Why you are championing a post which actualy does the opposite of what you seem to be wanting (that is A Clear and Accurate campaign to 'educate' people about the trade) is beyond me. Your argument that "There's plenty of plus sides for allowing GTC trade, and reducing RMT occurences is one of them" stinks however. Because people are making money selling dwugs to the kids - the government should knock up some Kiosks and start floggin it themselves eh? It will be ok as long as they get the money for it instead of the crims? Anyhows, stop daming me with faint praise. SKUNK
doctorstupid2 Blood Corsair's Blood Blind	Posted - 2008.04.09 02:12:00 - [30] /me agrees with skunk and buys him a beer Just because CCP gets a cut of the action doesn't change what it is, dress it up as they may. Nostalgia \| Deadspace2 \| Deadspace

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3.5 million dollars a year.