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3.6 Million Dollar per year isk seller fingered... its CCP!

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Amira Silvermist The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:17:00 - [121] I wonder, how many accounts do you have Skunk? ----------------------------------------------------------------------
PhantomMajor Minmatar De-Medusa Industries.	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:22:00 - [122] Edited by: PhantomMajor on 09/04/2008 16:22:32 Quote: EVE Online is the only MMORPG where if you convert the in-game currency to dollars, its the only game where a regular player can farm $4 or more per hour worth of currency. well that's not quite true, in the online game "Second Life" you can buy and sell in game money called Linden Dollars the exchange rate is something like 250 in game dollars for one US dollar. the fact is, if ccp did the same ( different exchange rates would have to apply) then they would have more incoming revenue instead of the real money going to the farmers. not only that, but by having ccp set the exchange rate to a very low ammount it would be unprofitable for the macro miners and isk farmers to sell isk online and so would remove them from the game. just as in a real economy, sometimes governments have to take drastic action and devalue their currency in order to protect economic growth. the same needs to be done here now as the isk farmers have caused so much damage to the in game market place to the point it isn't worth making or producing items as the profit margins are so low.... you only have to look at the salvage market, the parts are worth more than the rigs they can be used to make. punishing isk buyers isn't the real answer, from what i have seen irl i know 4 people who play eve online and 3 of them have bought isk on the net, so it proves that it is a wide spread problem hence the reason why ccp doesn't ban everyone who has done it, they simply wouldn't have a customer base left. ccp created this problem by not selling isk to people, so people simply went to some one that could, a classic case of supply and demand. if i have a choice of a game card or isk, i'll buy the isk. Ladies and gentlemen, we will shortly be experiencing some exploding followed by some crashing...so i'd hold on if i were you!
Ulstan	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:35:00 - [123] Man, skunk's posts have really dropped in quality recently. People will always spend money to get ISK, even if it's illegal. So, they can either give that money to the game company, giving the game company more money for hardware and coders, or they can give it to isk sellers, creating more rampant and widespread isk farming. I think we can see which choice is better for the game. The important thing to note is that as long as the only thing you get for your in game isk is eve game time cards, it effectively removes all motivation for people to set up isk farming operations. All you can do is fund your account, not make real life $$ off of it.
Jaggeh Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:41:00 - [124] Player A has respectable ammo selling business and spends his time lugging cargo loads to local hubs for mission runners and the like. he however doesnt have a credit card or any means to pay for the game. Player B has a credit card and needs isk to fund a project or is down on his luck and out of cash, or quite simply wants a shiney new ship. would you rather player A not being able to play at all and lose a line of supply for ammunition and other consumables and player B not being able to buy whatever the hell he wants with his isk? its a NO BRAINER. if someone wants isk they WILL get it however they can. CCP have created something that keeps the isk in the system and allows them to draw a subscription from it. Depriving macro'ers and other nerdowells of $$, as there is no 100% sure fire way to get rid of them without ruining the game.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.04.09 16:44:00 - [125] Originally by: Quelque Chose Current average for 30 day GTC is about 160 mil. 30 day gtc costs $15 US. 90bn ISK = ~600 gtc = $9000 US. Please show me the guy who spends 9 grand a day on a video game as I need somebody new to mooch off of. more to the point what would a person do with 90 billion a day pouring in? what could you possibly spend it on?
agent apple Spartan Industries Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:19:00 - [126]
Siresa Talesi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:21:00 - [127] Edited by: Siresa Talesi on 09/04/2008 17:24:01 Edited by: Siresa Talesi on 09/04/2008 17:22:53 Originally by: Scoundrelus Simply put Le Skunk, your completely correct. CCP are being complete hypocrites about the whole issue. You can't buy isk but you can buy game time cards and sell them for isk. Exact same thing except CCP gets to line its pockets. I really have no problem with them doing that but they shouldn't act like holy crusaders for the War Against Macro Miners, when obviously they leave macrominers/haulers in the game for the additional income and allow GTC sales (despite many contradictions) for even more income. (italics added for emphasis) I see this same mistaken idea over and over and over in these threads. Is it worth pointing out that in offering the GTC transaction, CCP makes no more money than they would if everyone buying GTCs with ISK were to pay for their accounts with cash? Or is everyone going to freely ignore this some more? In the hopes that some people out there actually think through these things and try to understand them, I'll do my best to explain. Player A purchases a 30 day GTC for $15US. The money paid goes to CCP, minus whatever portion is taken by the company that distributed the GTC. Player B uses ISK to purchase a GTC from Player A. Player B does not receive money from Player A, nor a code, but instead has subscription time added to his account. That's it, the only out-of game commodity that can be purchased with ISK is time. That time, used by a player, is paid for at the same rate, regardless of which player paid the cash to CCP. Except that this is not exactly the case. Some European players purchase GTCs for their own use. Since they typically purchase the codes at the USD price, they actually pay less for their subscription time then if they had paid directly to CCP due to current exchange rates. Also, as the GTC distributors get a cut of the price, CCP makes less from every GTC sale than they would by direct subscription fees. The only way in which offering the GTC exchange makes CCP more money is by potentially increasing the number of subscriptions. When Player B has a lot of play time but not a lot of cash and uses ISK to purchase a GTC from Player A who has more cash but less play time, Player A in effect subsidizes an account which may not have existed otherwise. So yes, GTCs can increase what CCP makes, but only by increasing subscriptions, they receive no raw money for it. So far as money/player, CCP makes the same if not less than they would without the GTC exchange. Even if a player bought 200 GTCs with real world money to sell for ISK, he will never get that ISK unless the codes are applied to subscription time, and CCP makes the same off that time regardless of which player pays the cash for it. "Space is filled with countless hours of boredom...punctuated by moments of abject terror." - Capn. James T. Kirk, Starfleet Academy
Elaron Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:27:00 - [128] Originally by: Le Skunk CCP may as well have a log in screen where the rich can type in cheat codes.. hold down shift and type INFINICASH.. just have your credit card ready. If you feel such outrage about the entire issue and feel that it is undermining the game to such a great degree, then the only thing you can do is quit, and tell CCP that it's why you quit. You could also use your rabble-rousing abilities to try and get other like-minded people to quit for the same reason. In all honesty, the only way that you can force CCP to discontinue their support for this is to show them that they will lose more players with it in than without it.
Overwhelmed Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:30:00 - [129] Originally by: Elaron If you feel such outrage about the entire issue and feel that it is undermining the game to such a great degree, then the only thing you can do is quit, and tell CCP that it's why you quit. You could also use your rabble-rousing abilities to try and get other like-minded people to quit for the same reason. In all honesty, the only way that you can force CCP to discontinue their support for this is to show them that they will lose more players with it in than without it. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Skunk never actually believed what he was saying. Calling it a "troll" would be brushing it off as too amateur. It almost looks like he has been taking some persuasion classes and applying it to a practice environment quite admirably - an "epic troll" if you will.
Rhaegor Stormborn Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:30:00 - [130] Originally by: Siresa Talesi Edited by: Siresa Talesi on 09/04/2008 17:24:01 Edited by: Siresa Talesi on 09/04/2008 17:22:53 Originally by: Scoundrelus Simply put Le Skunk, your completely correct. CCP are being complete hypocrites about the whole issue. You can't buy isk but you can buy game time cards and sell them for isk. Exact same thing except CCP gets to line its pockets. I really have no problem with them doing that but they shouldn't act like holy crusaders for the War Against Macro Miners, when obviously they leave macrominers/haulers in the game for the additional income and allow GTC sales (despite many contradictions) for even more income. (italics added for emphasis) I see this same mistaken idea over and over and over in these threads. Is it worth pointing out that in offering the GTC transaction, CCP makes no more money than they would if everyone buying GTCs with ISK were to pay for their accounts with cash? Or is everyone going to freely ignore this some more? In the hopes that some people out there actually think through these things and try to understand them, I'll do my best to explain. Player A purchases a 30 day GTC for $15US. The money paid goes to CCP, minus whatever portion is taken by the company that distributed the GTC. Player B uses ISK to purchase a GTC from Player A. Player B does not receive money from Player A, nor a code, but instead has subscription time added to his account. That's it, the only out-of game commodity that can be purchased with ISK is time. That time, used by a player, is paid for at the same rate, regardless of which player paid the cash to CCP. Except that this is not exactly the case. Some European players purchase GTCs for their own use. Since they typically purchase the codes at the USD price, they actually pay less for their subscription time then if they had paid directly to CCP due to current exchange rates. Also, as the GTC distributors get a cut of the price, CCP makes less from every GTC sale than they would by direct subscription fees. The only way in which offering the GTC exchange makes CCP more money is by potentially increasing the number of subscriptions. When Player B has a lot of play time but not a lot of cash and uses ISK to purchase a GTC from Player A who has more cash but less play time, Player A in effect subsidizes an account which may not have existed otherwise. So yes, GTCs can increase what CCP makes, but only by increasing subscriptions, they receive no raw money for it. So far as money/player, CCP makes the same if not less than they would without the GTC exchange. Even if a player bought 200 GTCs with real world money to sell for ISK, he will never get that ISK unless the codes are applied to subscription time, and CCP makes the same off that time regardless of which player pays the cash for it. Just because you disagree does not mean he is mistaken. I personally feel he is 100% correct and you are the one who is mistaken.

Kyanzes Amarr Utopian Research I.E.L. The ENTITY.	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:31:00 - [131] People with cash have the power. What's new here?
Cutie Chaser Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:36:00 - [132] Originally by: Siresa Talesi I see this same mistaken idea over and over and over in these threads. Is it worth pointing out that in offering the GTC transaction, CCP makes no more money than they would if everyone buying GTCs with ISK were to pay for their accounts with cash? But... they can't all pay by cash. Everytime a thread about GTC sales being removed people crawl out of the woodwork crying that GTCs are their only option. Hence, CCP gets to keep on those people who are only able to pay by ISK by having another person buy the GTC by proxy. I agree that this is in a way a good thing, but the problem could just as easily be solved by implementing more methods through which people can pay. So, you are mistaken, CCP DOES get to line their pockets for the trouble. They get the monies of all the popele who 'cannot' pay through any other method.
The PitBoss Caldari Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2008.04.09 17:58:00 - [133] Basically after scanning through 5 pages .. this is my take for what its worth: When broken down to the basics ... CCP is a business. They're the ones who created the product AND now its time to reap the benefits. That being money. Now they see 'joe isk farmer' selling isk for real life money. They realize ... hey this is a valid source of revenue for the company. How can we get a slice of the pie? Sell isk ourselves!!! I would venture to say ... they did ... AND i would venture to say the did it on EBAY like the rest of the world did at first. THEN they probably saw how profitable it was. Next Step ... they asked themselves ... how can we profit from this more (as any company would). ANSWER: Create a monopoly Your product ... your right I agree with LE SKUNK ... IF You just were upfront with this ... AND not sugar coat it to try to justify your reasons .. we wouldnt be on page 5
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:07:00 - [134] The whole topic is about CCP being hypocrites. I accept that it might be appealing to some customers, or that it has some advantages. But, in the end it is still RMT. GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT Don't try to deny that, it is a fact. CCP should stop trying to be the holy knights on the subject of macros/RMT etc.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:08:00 - [135] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld The whole topic is about CCP being hypocrites. I accept that it might be appealing to some customers, or that it has some advantages. But, in the end it is still RMT. GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT Don't try to deny that, it is a fact. CCP should stop trying to be the holy knights on the subject of macros/RMT etc. Economics. You should try it.
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:09:00 - [136] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld The whole topic is about CCP being hypocrites. I accept that it might be appealing to some customers, or that it has some advantages. But, in the end it is still RMT. GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT Don't try to deny that, it is a fact. CCP should stop trying to be the holy knights on the subject of macros/RMT etc. Economics. You should try it. ?
Tobias Sjodin Ore Mongers Black Hand.	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:12:00 - [137] Originally by: Avon Le Skunk, how about you enlighten us as to who is buying all these codes, and what you think they are doing with all that gametime? I think that his hypothesis may be that "they" (ooo spooky) are out to take on the world... I mean, sell those GTC:s for OOG money. Farm ISK, buy GTC:s, sell GTC:s for money. Ergo: Farming ISK = Money.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:14:00 - [138] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld ? Morally, there is no difference between RMT and GTC trading. Economically, there is a huge difference. I'm not going to go into huge detail here, but I'll sum it up. The GTC trade does not result in extra ISK being injected into the economy because the ISK being traded/sold was generated at a normal rate by normal players. ISK farmers, however, constantly participate in ISK faucets 23/7 and as such have a huge effect on inflation even though they are a small segment of the population. My personal belief is that CCP is just choosing the lesser of 2 evils because the demand for ISK will remain constant regardless of whether the GTC trade exists or not. If it does not exist, the ISK farmers will pick up the slack and expand their activities, increasing the negative impact they have on the economy.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:46:00 - [139] I'm still waiting for someone to suggest a policy that would do less harm and more good than allowing GTC sales. It's pointless whining about GTC for ISK unless you can suggest an alternative. Regulating the system to stop really large sales seems reasonable at first - someone suggested allowing no more than 180 days per month which is fairly liberal - but how do you stop people just using spare accounts to get around this limit? Just banning GTC sales will of course drive people straight into the arms of the RMT isk sellers, as well as kicking out the many people who rely on buying GTC for ISK. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:02:00 - [140] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Avon Le Skunk, how about you enlighten us as to who is buying all these codes, and what you think they are doing with all that gametime? I think that his hypothesis may be that "they" (ooo spooky) are out to take on the world... I mean, sell those GTC:s for OOG money. Farm ISK, buy GTC:s, sell GTC:s for money. Ergo: Farming ISK = Money. Chinese farmers buy the gametime codes with thier farmed isk. The real players, the people who work full time for a living are the ones who buy those codes for real life money for the isk. CCP is in fact helping the farmers, the people who sell the isk, by allowing GTCs.

Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:05:00 - [141] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Avon Le Skunk, how about you enlighten us as to who is buying all these codes, and what you think they are doing with all that gametime? I think that his hypothesis may be that "they" (ooo spooky) are out to take on the world... I mean, sell those GTC:s for OOG money. Farm ISK, buy GTC:s, sell GTC:s for money. Ergo: Farming ISK = Money. Chinese farmers buy the gametime codes with thier farmed isk. The real players, the people who work full time for a living are the ones who buy those codes for real life money for the isk. CCP is in fact helping the farmers, the people who sell the isk, by allowing GTCs. But when you purchase a GTC through the secure method you can't sell it for cash. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:08:00 - [142] Having legal RMT also has a downside. If the only way to obtain ISK would be illegal RMT, a lot of the older players would actually have to think about buying isk. Illegal RMT would only be a tool for players who really aren't committed to EVE in the long term anyway. Economic problems such inflation due to the new demand for farmers are irrelevant, because CCP can play god with EVE economics using methods such as lowering insurance payout, adding more taxes etc...
Anneka Tong	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:12:00 - [143] Originally by: Tarminic If the users are selling GTCs, why don't they just not sell them to someone who looks like a farmer? They can refuse a sale at their discretion. The farmers swamp threads. E.g. see here. Possibly people just don't have the patience to only sell to non-farmers.
TheEndofTheWorld Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:12:00 - [144] Originally by: Malcanis I'm still waiting for someone to suggest a policy that would do less harm and more good than allowing GTC sales. It's pointless whining about GTC for ISK unless you can suggest an alternative. Regulating the system to stop really large sales seems reasonable at first - someone suggested allowing no more than 180 days per month which is fairly liberal - but how do you stop people just using spare accounts to get around this limit? Just banning GTC sales will of course drive people straight into the arms of the RMT isk sellers, as well as kicking out the many people who rely on buying GTC for ISK. "There will always be whatever bad thing" is not a justification for not fighting the whatever bad thing.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:15:00 - [145] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Economic problems such inflation due to the new demand for farmers are irrelevant, because CCP can play god with EVE economics using methods such as lowering insurance payout, adding more taxes etc... So if insurance and mission payouts were removed from the game, how do you think the vast majority of the player base can react? Unlike God, CCP's subjects have the option of leaving. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:17:00 - [146] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld "There will always be whatever bad thing" is not a justification for not fighting the whatever bad thing. GTC trade has negative consequences. No GTC trade has more negative consequences. I fail to see what the benefit would be for outlawing GTC trading. ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:18:00 - [147] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Originally by: Avon Le Skunk, how about you enlighten us as to who is buying all these codes, and what you think they are doing with all that gametime? I think that his hypothesis may be that "they" (ooo spooky) are out to take on the world... I mean, sell those GTC:s for OOG money. Farm ISK, buy GTC:s, sell GTC:s for money. Ergo: Farming ISK = Money. Chinese farmers buy the gametime codes with thier farmed isk. The real players, the people who work full time for a living are the ones who buy those codes for real life money for the isk. CCP is in fact helping the farmers, the people who sell the isk, by allowing GTCs. But when you purchase a GTC through the secure method you can't sell it for cash. They pay for their gametime with the isk they farm. I said nothing about cash. I spend my cash to buy GTCs and sell them to chinese farmers for thier isk. Thus CCP is supporting Chinese farmers playing for free. Look at the names and characters of the people who buy GTCs. Many are obvious ISK farmers. Your defense of CCP makes it quite transparent who you work for.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:21:00 - [148] Originally by: Rhaegor Stormborn They pay for their gametime with the isk they farm. I said nothing about cash. I spend my cash to buy GTCs and sell them to chinese farmers for thier isk. Thus CCP is supporting Chinese farmers playing for free. Look at the names and characters of the people who buy GTCs. Many are obvious ISK farmers. Your defense of CCP makes it quite transparent who you work for. I apologize, I misunderstood your statement. I don't see how CCP is supporting farmers any more with the GTC system than if the farmers just paided their subscriptions normally. Also, tinfoil hattery much? ---------------- Tarminic - 34 Million SP in Forum Warfare Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:25:00 - [149] Originally by: TheEndofTheWorld Originally by: Malcanis I'm still waiting for someone to suggest a policy that would do less harm and more good than allowing GTC sales. It's pointless whining about GTC for ISK unless you can suggest an alternative. Regulating the system to stop really large sales seems reasonable at first - someone suggested allowing no more than 180 days per month which is fairly liberal - but how do you stop people just using spare accounts to get around this limit? Just banning GTC sales will of course drive people straight into the arms of the RMT isk sellers, as well as kicking out the many people who rely on buying GTC for ISK. "There will always be whatever bad thing" is not a justification for not fighting the whatever bad thing. sigh It is when fighting the bad thing is worse than the bad thing itself. To use an imperfect analogy: doctors sometimes use morphine as a painkiller when nothing else will do. Quite often the patients will become addicted. But although it's bad to be addicted to morphine, that's not a reason to make someone endure pain, nor does it make doctors the moral equivalent of **** dealers. Preventing doctors prescribing morphine will not stop people becoming addicted to ****, nor is it ethical to do so unless you can supply a superior alternative. Honestly some of the logic in this thread is terrible. To listen to some of the people in this thread, the fact that I get paid for my work makes me the moral equivalent of a slavetrader, since I'm selling labor. The fact that it's mine to sell makes no difference, apparently - if CCP are allowed to profit from people wanting to (effectively) RMT in CCP's server, then they have no right to object to anyone else doing so! Hey, if it's OK for you to drive your car, why isn't it OK for me to drive it to? You hypocrite! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Iron Ball	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:25:00 - [150] Originally by: Ehranavaar Originally by: Quelque Chose Current average for 30 day GTC is about 160 mil. 30 day gtc costs $15 US. 90bn ISK = ~600 gtc = $9000 US. Please show me the guy who spends 9 grand a day on a video game as I need somebody new to mooch off of. more to the point what would a person do with 90 billion a day pouring in? what could you possibly spend it on? With 90 billion A day you could rule EVE. With 90 billion on one day you could cause some serious damage to other players.



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GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT

GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT

GTC trading is just a fancy name for RMT