While this would be a pretty big nerf to ecm drones (maybe increase their strength to compensate?) This seems the best idea I've seen so far.

Suprising.

I'm going to have to grudgingly +1

We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.

In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

As an analogy I would suggest that ships targeted by ECM be allowed to lock on ships or drones that are attempting to use ECM on them, even if they are unable to lock any other target. Maybe even ECM targeted ships should get sensor range and resolution bonus against ships using ECM on them.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).

We have 3 three counters to ECM already

The reason it's so difficult to nerf is that it'd hard to nerf the EWAR without breaking half a dozen ships, but this idea makes it less viable for locking down an entire gang with 2 ships while still keeping it useful in an anti-support role. Best solution I've seen so far, frankly.

This ability you speak of is in SOME missiles only. Those missiles can passively "home" on very strong amounts if radar or infrared EM waves. This application is not present in all anti air and anti ship missiles by any means and currently has an in game equivalent of FoF Missiles.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).

That is take your own Ewar with you in a small gang. This is the most simple idea.

ECM is fine as it is.

As any Ewar pilot will tell you ECM is not a dead cert. to work unlike any other EWAR system and the ships that have bonuses or are designed to use ECM are the weakness in their class, so as it stands ECM pilots fly with a greater risk of getting podded then any other member of a fleet.

When the only viable counter to X is more of X or overwhelming force, something is badly wrong and needs rebalancing. ECM fits this perfectly. Thanks for helping me make my point there.


Provide evidence/proper argument or **** off. So far all you've contributed is a list of "counters" that are at best situational and at worst utterly useless.


I am an Ewar pilot, thanks, unlike you by the look of it. Let's re-list your "counters" from my point of view, shall we?

1. Drones - I'm out of range of all but sentries. The only ships that can use those are a couple of battleships and two cruisers - hardly practical.
2. FoF missiles - utterly laughable. Even if I'm in range, and they fire at me, (two very big ifs there) they do pathetic DPS and most of them get shot down by my defenders. Yeah, FoFs barely even deserve a mention here.
3. ECCM - thanks for giving up a slot for something that only barely hinders me, guys. I've managed to get jams on 2 ECCM'd Basilisks at the same time before.

Oh and I think you mean "get blown up" not "get podded", as if you're not in a bubble it's pretty damn hard to get your pod killed unless you lag out. As for getting blown up - hey guess what, I'm too far out for most weapons to even reach me. I guess having a clue how to fly my ships is why I don't lose many ECM boats eh?

Actually in RL what happen is a missile is able to lock on to the source of the White noise.

This we already have they are called FoF missiles they can be fired at any aggressive ship whether your can lock them or not. Therefore why do we need yet another module or change that make a Ewar ship redundant.

We have 3 three counters to ECM already

1. ECCM
2. FoF missiles
3. Drones

Why the hell do we need yet another counter?

I suggest your learn how to counter ECM rather than whine about it.

In RL.

I stopped reading here.

You need to take another look at what game you're playing.

ship breaking range nerf?

Should've read on further, they got the idea from RL then presented it in terms that make gameplay sense.

The fundamental problem with ECM (besides the mechanic, but one thing at a time...) is the way it scales. In mid-larger fleet fights, it's fine balance-wise. It's small gangs where it's a big problem - and the main solution to ECM for them is either bringing their own ship (great. More of those around, fun stuff) or to bring more people (yay blobbing!).

This idea keeps ECM viable at all fight sizes but nerfs it slightly in small gang engagements. I see no issues with this, frankly.

Good idea or not, anyone who starts an idea with "In RL" is an idiot and not really worth listening to.

No. ECM got greatly nerfed long ago. It is enough as it is.

Every ship and every tactic must have a situation where it has the advantage. For example, if you have a ship that is very powerful in close range, you know you have to get close to the enemy. What you're asking here in this example would be to reduce the strength of this ship in close range.

ECM's are powerful in small gangs. It is their strength.

I have been flying Rook, Blackbird and Scorpion for YEARS, and I think they're very well balanced right now.

And all said nerf did was bring an overpowered module down from 200km range to 70+. Yeah, so crippling.

blah blah blah

Try fitting an ECM ship for yourself and see how powerful they are. To make it so omgwtfoverpowered, they need to have all or almost all ECMs in the mid slots (that means no tackle), and they need whatever tiny buffer they can get in the low (that means no damage). And they still have paper-thin tanks.

Maybe try targetting these wtfpwnmobiles and you'll see that they fall apart under any fire whatsoever. Or maybe try flying one and you'll see that your own arguments fall apart under any fire whatsoever.

They are the best of the racial EWars, but they are balanced as they are. The other EWars are just situational or plain sucky.

(PS. They could have a range of a million meters and it wouldn't make a difference. At 140 km or so you can just warp on top of them.)

Massive +1 to the OP.

Truely massive.



I agree with this all the way.

Yet I think that ECCM suffers from 2 major disavantages. First, it's really uneffective. Second, the module itself is ONLY, USEFULL, WHEN YOU ENCOUNTER JAMMING SHIPS.

Think about it. You counter Neuts with capboosters, which are still useful in pretty much all situations, right ?

You counter sensor dampeners with sensor boosters, right ?

You counter tracking disruptors with tracking enhancers/computers, right ?

The thing is, all those modules have an utility. I mean, having tracking enhancers is great even if you don't encounter Curses/Pilgrims/Sentinels, right ? Sensor boosters are still useful even if you don't encounter sensor dampening ships, right ?

ECCM is simply worthless if you don't encounter a jamming ship and if he isn't jamming you.

It needs a boost in terms of efficiency, and it needs to affect more than one of the ship's electronic parameters. It could provide a (smaller than a sensor booster's) boost to scan res and targetting range, it could provide an additionnal +5 lockable targets ? It could provide a reduction of the total jamming time or something like that.

ECM like every other module in the game has a cycle time. This cycle time remains even if you stop the module. CCP would have to make it so ECM could switch on and off instantaneously, to counter this missile which would mean that is would be the only module in the game that did this and render the new missile basically useless before it was introduced. Therefore making the whole idea a non-starter

Mind you on the other hand being able to turn ECM on and off instantly would mean a major buff to the power of ECM so it might not be a bad idea afterall

I like the idea, but also agree that unless ecm boats get something in return (either hp or resist buff or something) to compensate, you will simply turn ecm boats into merely sacraficial bullseyes.

I love how people keep saying ECM ships are fine because they have low tanks, apparently not realising that they're jamming at anything from 70-150+km. You'd be surprised how small an issue lack of tank is when you're that far out.

Also most proper ECM ships will still carry some buffer, my Falcon has something like 20k EHP which, while not award winning, is a long way from the "look at them funny and they explode" description people keep giving them.

f you're getting jammed at over 100 km etc.

use drones or FOF missiles.

ECM is balanced

I like this idea, and agree that it would need to be balanced with a significant boost to tank-ability for ECM ships.
I think the other racial EW modules are all hideously underpowered, though, and need to be heavily boosted.

Damps need a boost, TPs and TDs work just fine.

In larger fights yes. In smaller gangs, completely impractical.


See my previous posts on how drones and FoFs are an utter ******* joke vs ECM ships.


At larger gang sizes, yes. At small gang size, it's stupidly OP.


Blackbirds can jam further out than a Falcon, they don't need a 20k buffer.

All ideas are based "In RL". The more plausible something is, the more immersive it is.

Anyone who believes that RL has no bearing on fiction is an idiot not worth listening to.

Good god get out. Game balance comes first. Fitting in with RL or lore is secondary. You know why? ITS A MAKE BELIEVE GAME. The devs can reconstruct "reality" and "lore" to fit the game balance. Simple as that.



I see what you did there. It wasn't clever.

All other ewar has a counter skill to buffer. Targeting for damps, cap recharge for vamp, weapons upgrade skills for tracking etc. None of those work well when you are stacking that ewar but those skills work for standard fit ewar. There is no skill buffer for ECM.

As someone who's flown every ECM boat including the infamous pre-nerf Falcon, I like to think I know what I'm talking about here.

1. Worthless. Takes up a slot while having no secondary benefits, and does very little. The chance-based mechanic of ECM contributes to this.
2. Also worthless - FOFs do hilariously low DPS and will only even target the ECM ship if you're lucky. They're also pretty much only applicable to the Drake, as that's pretty much the only missile boat larger than a frigate worth using.
3. Only any good if said ECM boat is even in range - not exactly likely if fitted and flown well.

In smaller engagements, ECM is overpowered. Simple as.
The reason it's so difficult to nerf is that it'd hard to nerf the EWAR without breaking half a dozen ships, but this idea makes it less viable for locking down an entire gang with 2 ships while still keeping it useful in an anti-support role. Best solution I've seen so far, frankly.

Hilariously awful Blackbird fit

overdrive injector instead of Armor plates

But no matter how you mod it, it's slow as hell, has no tank, no tackle and no damage.

What is moronic abut basic curtsey? Sure by the tone of your GÇ£messageGÇ¥ you are unfamiliar with the concept but if one wants for people to do something, like debate an issue, it is only right to thank them if they do. Ad least learn some manners if you are unable to prove constructive comment.

1. ECCM is very Viable as it pretty much doubles your chance to resist ECM.

3. Drones WORK! If you see an ECM boat, swap targets immediately. This is where ppl fail... you want to talk range, close the gap or GTFO since you seem to refer this on a 1v1 scale.

Also ECM drones are easily taken down by combat drones. I was just in a fight where the guy had a swarm of ECM, they got me on their first cycle, but I popped my drones out and when they failed a cycle, I locked (With a BS mind you) and my drones did the rest and I came out the victor.

Edit: 5. If you were to implement your idea, CCP would have to make ECM ships Tank better, cause atm, they're pretty much a paper bag... gee I wonder why?

4. Projected ECCM... why ppl forget this mod is beyond me. If you're running in small gangs and you don't want to sacrafice your precious mid-slot, get a dedicated Anti-ECM boat loaded with ECCM (2) and Projected ECCM (2), I can think of a few Armor ships that could fill this roll pretty well.

I have no idea why you have such an aversion to real life. News flash for you: space shuttles exist in real life, you'd better quit eve. And while the devs can make the fluff whatever they want, it's always better if the stuff they're making up makes sense.)

What is moronic abut basic curtsey? Sure by the tone of your GÇ£messageGÇ¥ you are unfamiliar with the concept but if one wants for people to do something, like debate an issue, it is only right to thank them if they do. Ad least learn some manners if you are unable to prove constructive comment.

Stop minimizing and ignoring counters within the game because you do not wish to include them in your fit

ECM ships countering ecm ships is perfectly fine as well

Equip ECCM and understand 1 eccm isn't a 100% effective counter, hire or become a ewar specialist to provide counter ecm or projected ECCM, equip backup sensors or die in a fireball.

I haven't minimized anything. ECCM is semi-useless, FoFs are completely useless, and drones only work if the ECM ship pilot is as stupid as you. I've listed off realistic counters to ECM ships, and all of them are impractical on some level.


Yes. Yes it is.
ECM ships being the main, and arguably only, consistently viable counter is not.


ECCM is ******* trash for anything but making T3s hard to probe. I've seen it used, and I've laughed at the ones who equipped it as I jammed them regardless. On the small gang scale, it's a complete waste of a slot.

In larger fleets, like ECM itself, it's pretty much fine. In small gangs, it's more useful reprocessed.

I really do have to congratulate you on maintaining your longstanding tradition of brainless narrowmindedness and utter lack of reading comprehension or ability to make an argument.

Saying something is useless isn't going to help your case. The devs included it in game and I think they know precisely how effective or ineffective it is. It's there and it works as intended. If ECCM gives you the impression it's wasting a slot then don't use it.

In the same way shield and armor resistances can not fully protect from damage only mitigate it so follows ecm and eccm. Adapt.

blah blah blah

1. No tank... it won't survive an encounter with any hostile whatsoever. What do you do if you undock and there's a hostile thrasher outside the station? Damn. Your overpowered killship sure lasted long. Or what do you do if SOMEONE WARPS ON TOP OF YOU AND FIRES FOF MISSILES? Maybe the reason FOF missiles suck is because ECM boat EHP sucks.

2. No highs? How do you defend against drones?

P.S. Under 20k ehp for a cruiser is weak tank. Under 1500 m/s for a cruiser is slow speed. Under 200 dps for a cruiser is low dps.

Also I notice you've not made a single valid argument as to why the OP is a bad idea. ECM stays powerful, but slightly more specialised - keeping the role it has in larger fights while no longer being stupidly overpowered in small gangs.

Still not so much as an attempt at evidence/argument.

Look, I know you think that just because something has the longest range, it automatically wins, but it doesn't always work like that. If it did, then everyone would be flying sniper rokhs and nothing else.

P.S. The way I rigged it was to make fun of you for your insistence that blackbirds must have a 100km+ range.

I love how people keep saying ECM ships are fine because they have low tanks, apparently not realising that they're jamming at anything from 70-150+km. You'd be surprised how small an issue lack of tank is when you're that far out.

Also most proper ECM ships will still carry some buffer, my Falcon has something like 20k EHP which, while not award winning, is a long way from the "look at them funny and they explode" description people keep giving them.

You still do not get it there are already ships and modules out there that can counter the so called overpowered ECM crusiers.

Now yes i know you hate ECM and want nothing to do with it, but like i said earlier this idea will not be brought in due to the fact that it may make a small gang have a fighting chance against ECM, but as every ship in a gang will carry it it will make ECM useless in a large fleetp

I love watching stupid people argue with Duchess.

Sometimes you guys make it too easy for him.....but its always entertaining.

Please carry on.

ECM was nerfed, and atm needs no tweaking IMO

Gallente are the best Drone users whatsoever, making them actually pretty good against ecm in small gangs

And guess what, Caldaris specialisation is EWAR, and thus their ships have the most CPU and the best EWAR class

If you want to counter ecm, take a sensor boosting sensor dampener specialist with you

Well, if you want a reliable ecm counter, make a counter-ECM ECM fit, sensor booster for better si radius, caldari soecific jammers, and maybe use the kitsune to be a good and fast falcon or rook counter

however, the thing you want to do is make the ecm ships that are allready first target even more easy to kill though they atm have very little defense except their ecm, which after your kind of nerf will be totally useless as a defense and then suddenly the only EWAR completely useless solo

and about sensor dampening having too little range: 30km range and 60km falloff is not actually a bad range, and you can easily damp the targeting range of any ship to less then half its base targeting range with only two modules, and you dont need much time for your buddys to then get the drones attack the ecm ship

edit: and the best about sensor dampa is actually that they ARE reliable, they arent chance based at any way

This is a monumentally bad idea.

[

ECM is easy to kill? That's news to me. Maybe I've just not seen enough brainless/unlucky ECM pilots. Their defence is range and to a lesser extent highslot point-defences and buffer. (And in the case of the Falcon, the cloak is a huge advantage).

Wouldn't this make every ship fit an ECM to jam their own logi? The logi would still be able to target what is jamming it, right? Actualiy, that is a good thing! Would buff the pilgrim/curse for fleet engagements.

EDIT:
+1
I love all the falcon tears here!
Buhuhu! Your falcon is no longer an invicible I-win button!

I look forward to flying an interceptor to point falcons in the future.

i did not say ecm was easy to kill, but if the fleet can get a lock on it, it IS first target and they will APPROACH you

and again: with your "fix" ecm ships wont have a value in solo fights

how are you planning to take out even support ships if the rest of the fleet kills you once they lock you?

and dont say 150km range will help against every threat there is, that is IF you are at 150km range, and not if you jump through a gate and are suddenly in an enemy fleet at 5 km range, dont state situations that are highly unlikely as a given

also, if you fit only fightability (buffer, speed) and no ecm power (ecm upgrades in lows, meds full of ecm modules) on a falcon, you are pretty useless for your fleet, because then you can only jam about 1-3 targets the whole time

In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

As an analogy I would suggest that ships targeted by ECM be allowed to lock on ships or drones that are attempting to use ECM on them, even if they are unable to lock any other target. Maybe even ECM targeted ships should get sensor range and resolution bonus against ships using ECM on them.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships but still useful in fleets to either take out enemy logistic ships or DPS ships that have gunn/missile range smeller then ECM range. In that way ECM would become equal to other EVE e-war methods in that it is useful only is specific situations and and against specific ships instead of instant overwhelming force multiplier that can be used against any ship (except supper capitals and titians).

ecm is fine as it is now.... missed a ctcle = bye 200mil falcon

In RL ECM is usual is done by blinding sensors by large amount of noise. While this prevents locking of normal targets it actually makes it easier to track jammer that is source of noise, so a typical modern anti air and anti ship active guided missiles are programmed to switch to passive mode if jammed and guide to source of jamming noise.

This would make ECM useless in solo ships...

No thanks, ecm drones are already more powerful than they should be regardless of it being chance based... 5 light ecm drones have a 27.6% chance to jam a hurricane, while 1 multispectral ecm has 15% chance, and a ladar specific has 23% chance... ecm drones should not have a higher chance than a module (since the other ew drones don't either)

Here, I'll give you a free lesson on how to fit and use an ECM boat. Seems you need it:
__________________________________________

Bad fitting.
__________________________________________


*snip*

__________________________________________

Another bad fitting.
__________________________________________