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CSM Council Members Kicking and Muting eachother like Children

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Kurt Gergard Federal European Industry Science and Research	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 - [61] I am realy disapointed with the CSM. The meaning of "mayority" discussion was just ********. To have no doubts i ran across several constitutions and other legislation acts and it is as follows: "mayority" - more yes than no, "absolut mayority" 50% + 1 of pressent voiting yes, and a special order of voting requiering more than 50% but that is not important. The chat based discussion is highly inefective that is obvious. Also I don't realy see any diffrent points of view because most of the topics are concluded that they will discuss it with CCP insted of putting forward sertain solutions. And I agree with the person that said that the forum way is much more efficent :D "No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke
siggi 64 Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 - [62] I am just wondering if Jade is gonna adress his actions. I mean as mentioned previously, the CSM is meant to put forward EVE's community thoughts and feeling, and not there own... On a side note, who the hell voted for jade anyway?!?!? I mean seriously ....
Elliot Reid Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:18:00 - [63] I'd much rather CCP spend the rl cash that will be wasted on this CSM on monthly **up's for themselves. RL cash that we pay thinking it might actually go towards making EVE a better game. Fat ***** chance with the cash wasted here. _______________________________________
Sicil Fioet	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:22:00 - [64] is there an option for like a non-confidence vote? or is CSM stuck with candidates it has?
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:23:00 - [65] If we compare CSM with the playerbase I'd wonder who'd we call more immature and childish. And lets not forget whining, spoiled and obnoxious.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:28:00 - [66] Hello chaps, A few comments: 1) I would just like to point out one thing about the 'chat log' posted here. The chat log came from a member of the Committee who had channel rights, which is why it contains a note about Inanna being muted by Jade. Unfortunately, the other members of the Committee, who do not have channel rights, did not see that notification and therefore had no idea that Jade had gagged Inanna and Jade didn't inform us. I only became aware that Inanna had been gagged when she mentioned it to me in a separate convo. 2) I was not happy with how the meeting went yesterday particularly Jade's 'editorialising', his muting of Inanna and then raising two issues we had already discussed AFTER we had completed the official agenda and have made some suggestions to the other CSM members about how this should be handled in future. However all that said the CSM Committee DID has passed a large number of issues on to our Iceland discussions with CCP - mostly unanimously agreed. If we end up getting CCP to do something about even 50% of these then in my view CSM will have done its job making EVE better for everyone! Yes there is bickering but it is to some extent the nature of the beast. 3) A lot of the responsibility for CSM wasting time in 'discussions' over 'majorities/alternates' etc is down to CCP who have only provided the initial CSM with very vague operating principles. As a result this first CSM in particular will be more painful as we work these teething 'issues' out. It is my hope that as the CSM process develops that less time is spent upon CSM procedure and more time on issues that impact the game positively but have to say that at least initially we will see these debates as a CSM 'constitution' is developed. Cheers ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
QwaarJet hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:28:00 - [67] Edited by: QwaarJet on 09/06/2008 10:32:08 It's the community's fault for voting in people they've heard of, rather than looking for the best candidate. While Jade, Ankhesentapemkah and the like get in, really good candidates without forum reputations don't have a chance.
Fanjita	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:30:00 - [68] cant say im surprised or bothered after all they only applied to the csm for the free holidays to iceland.
Simokon	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:31:00 - [69] I must say I was rather amused and disturbed by that chat log.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:35:00 - [70] Originally by: Hardin Hello chaps, A few comments: 1) I would just like to point out one thing about the 'chat log' posted here. The chat log came from a member of the Committee who had channel rights, which is why it contains a note about Inanna being muted by Jade. Unfortunately, the other members of the Committee, who do not have channel rights, did not see that notification and therefore had no idea that Jade had gagged Inanna and Jade didn't inform us. I only became aware that Inanna had been gagged when she mentioned it to me in a separate convo. 2) I was not happy with how the meeting went yesterday particularly Jade's 'editorialising', his muting of Inanna and then raising two issues we had already discussed AFTER we had completed the official agenda and have made some suggestions to the other CSM members about how this should be handled in future. However all that said the CSM Committee DID has passed a large number of issues on to our Iceland discussions with CCP - mostly unanimously agreed. If we end up getting CCP to do something about even 50% of these then in my view CSM will have done its job making EVE better for everyone! Yes there is bickering but it is to some extent the nature of the beast. 3) A lot of the responsibility for CSM wasting time in 'discussions' over 'majorities/alternates' etc is down to CCP who have only provided the initial CSM with very vague operating principles. As a result this first CSM in particular will be more painful as we work these teething 'issues' out. It is my hope that as the CSM process develops that less time is spent upon CSM procedure and more time on issues that impact the game positively but have to say that at least initially we will see these debates as a CSM 'constitution' is developed. Cheers Use. A. Forum. They are superior in every way. They, 1) separate issues into threads 2) can quote so you know wtf people are replying to 3) can't be interrupted 4) have infinitely superior time constraints And in general they make everything easier for everyone. Hardin, so you were a counselor irl. Well, this isn't gonna work in a chat room. A chat room is the most unorganized cluster**** of a discussion meeting you could ever hope for. Whether it be to show off or make use of your irl experience, or just to roleplay that you're in a courtroom doesn't matter. You're better off using a forum.
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/06/2008 10:40:31 How about you start next meeting with deciding how other CSM meetings are going to work? Like dont mute others, even if there is a good reason to mute them. Next, this was first time, give them some time to get used to these kind of meetings. Allthough i dont agree with jade muting arround, i can understand that you get touchy after chatting that long. And finally, they indeed look like a good representation of the eve user base. Edit: I got second thoughts, jade shouldnt mute less, but should mute more often. Well maybe not really mute them, but it is a chat based meeting now where everyone talks at the same time. No **** it becomes chaotic and you want to mute some. Ever tried an msn conversation with 10 people? One should be talking at a time. And if you are going to do that via text chat, the meeting will take 12 hours next time. Solution: Use forum (you cant post in each others posts, so it stays clear) and once a week (or something like that) you talk directly with each other using voice chat.
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:40:00 - [72] Fourm (fo+rum) 1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people. 2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion. 3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. I think people often forget about what the word "forum" actually means. A forum is a discussion place. A chatroom is where people get together to chatter away about whatever. Organized discussions can take place in a forum, where there is less organization in a chatroom, which can lead to chaos. I agree here that a forum would be more appropriate, but it is sort of amusing to watch how they problem solve. Sadly, I have a feeling that after reading the entire thing, some of them are in over their heads (which... sucks.) And, I did not say all, I said some. www.siigarikitawa.com
Fergus Nuada Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:41:00 - [73] I was neutral and open minded about the CSM, but after reading the chat log, first impressions were initially , then , then finally I hope things improve- I am sure some of the CSMs do also, they have donated a lot of their time to this.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Fanjita cant say im surprised or bothered after all they only applied to the csm for the free holidays to iceland. I have so far spent at least 8 hrs of my EVE playing time in 'CSM Meetings' which I am sure as you can see from the chatlog is not necessarily the most 'fun' time to be had in EVE On top of this there is the huge amount of time I have spent reading through the Assembly Forum issues (go take a look at the amount of threads in there) and deciding on the merits/demerits to each. Of course I am not complaining about that - heck I enjoy the political stuff - but to state that we only did it for a free trip to Iceland is a bit ridiculous when from what I can tell most of the CSM candidates can well afford to pay for their own holidays Although I am not sure any of us would want to pay for a holiday which will involve us being locked up in a Committee Room with 8 other egotists for 4 days (especially as it means I actually use some of my 'proper' holiday allocation which could have been better spent on a beach somewhere Personally I stood because I am passionate about this game and do want to see it improved and believe that the CSM does have the potential to promote positive change to CCP. Of course we will have to wait and see how it turns out ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
JS LiamElms Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:47:00 - [75] Edited by: JS LiamElms on 09/06/2008 10:52:56 If the majority of CSM members have issues with the current chairman you should probably post a petition to CCP of a vote of no confidence and request an anonymous election within the group for an figure head chairman (committee arbitrator) be auctioned. you will probably want to get over 70% of your present members to agree before posting any vote of no confidence to highlight its not just one or two individuals that are not happy with current situation otherwise this op is just a lot of hot air, and its main point to post is to derail the good job the csm is/or could be doing. edit: nothing more pointless and rather dimwitted is to post meanings of words. Well done for your great understanding, but please stop as you might be suprised people know said meaning. It only serves to show your ability to be willing to belittle people in trying to prove a point. "i am a noob, so when i pop you... feel the shame!!"
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:47:00 - [76] I think the CSM needs to recruit a Speaker to handle this. Let points of order be left to someone who isn't trying to put a case at the same time. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Bael Thazor	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:49:00 - [77] While I think everyone, CSM included, would agree that the discussion left a lot to be desired, I think it's a bit of a misnomer to claim that any 'kicking' has taken place in this instance. As evidenced by the chat log, for those who don't have the patience to read it all, Jade Constantine did indeed block Inanna Zule, in fact on three separate occasions: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:58 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote". [ 2008.06.08 21:40:29 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:10:28. [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05. However, there is no record in the chatlog of Inanna being kicked from the channel. We thus have two explanations for why Inanna left the channel at some point between 21:36 and 21:47: that Jade, or another player with moderator priveleges, removed them (which is the theory everyone seems to be assuming) or that Inanna, by design or accident, left the channel on their own. There is evidence in the logs to suggest that the former is doubtful, other than Jade's own protestations of innocence: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:47:27 ]Dierdra Vaal >she isnt on the blocked list [ 2008.06.08 21:47:44 ]Dierdra Vaal >not on the muted list either [ 2008.06.08 21:49:10 ]Dierdra Vaal >inanna, I didnt see you on the blocked list tbh [ 2008.06.08 22:01:08 ]Ankhesentapemkah >Err the chat clearly said in red letters that jade muted Inanna, but nothing indicated Inanna was kicked or blocked or anything like that. Getting over the indignation of some of the CSM representatives at Jade's actions for the moment, I think we're best served by following the advice of Bane: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:54:47 ]Bane Glorious >we could ask CCP if she was kicked or blocked [ 2008.06.08 21:54:52 ]Bane Glorious >they have the ability to check So rather than stirring up any more accusations, it seems appropriate to let the devs look into the chat logs and see if any discretion on the part of Jade has taken place. While I'm not intimate with CSM procedure (as, apparently, no one is) if the chairman did indeed kick Inanna from the channel, some sort of review should place to ensure that such powers cannot be abused in the future. On the other hand, if Inanna left the channel through other means, and was merely muted so the vote could take place, the issue seems less severe. The concept of a chairman being able to terminate unwanted discussion at a whim runs counter to the principle of a democratically elected body, and I implore the CSM to remove moderator privileges from all members of the quorum to ensure an incident such as this is not repeated. Having said all that, the meeting seemed to run quite smoothly save for the debate over the role of abstaining. Issues that were brought up on these forums were discussed, the merit of some suggestions was carefully reviewed, and the entire process was completely transparent to the regular observer. The CSM should see these early disagreements and disputes as a learning experience, and move on. A great deal of player interest is vested within them.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:06:00 - [78] Inanna wasn't kicked - She was muted. Some bug did kick her out of the channel though when Jade tried to unmute her! ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Schultze 0rigins EVESpace	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker This'll be real funny when they meet in person. I wanna see the video of the guys in their 30s yelling across the table at the 14-year-olds, especially the little girly boy who has the gavel. Oh My GOD that painted an Epic picture in my head, framed in pure Gold. You made my day Joe Starbreaker.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:31:00 - [80] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 09/06/2008 11:31:14 Anyone taking bets on who gets muted next? My money is on lvv with darius as a close second.
Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:33:00 - [81] What was the actual reason for muting? These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Gideon Kross PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:33:00 - [82] Edited by: Gideon Kross on 09/06/2008 11:33:45 ::shakes head solemnly:: From review of all the current logs posted, It appears that our newly elected Body Politic is not quite up to scratch on the points of Parliamentary Procedure. Things appear to be Rushed before all results are in. Haste seems to be this (dis)organisation's pitfall... Not to mention Unattentiveness to the propsals put on the table for consideration, and therefore more time wasted on re-review of the matter that was clearly stated mere moments before. It's a bloody Chat Channel... Missed Something? ... Scroll Up. CSM: You Must Exsercise PATIENCE, RESTRAINT, and above all PROFESIONALISM. I would advise that this esteemed group, As A Whole Refamiliarise themselves with Simple Parliamentary Procedure, and Conduct Meetings Accordingly... Reguardless of how long it may take. ... Stay On Task Until The Task Is Completed. Point Of Order Votes in Abstentia only count on the Recorded Vote, wherein the Majority (Yea, or Nae) Is Counted for Official Result (simple majority rule), or in the case of the proposed (full majority) Yea, or Nae Votes numbering 5 or more would be required for a proposal to be carried... Votes in Abstentia Do Not Count as Nae Votes, and are to be recorded as Abstentia Votes (neither yea, or nae; as the issue or proposal is unclear and warrants further investigation) For The Official Record. ... What I've seen thus far, does not please me in the least. Quote: I was contemplating the immortal words of Socrates; Who said '... I Drank What?!'
Sani Ka THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:38:00 - [83] rofl who woulda thought of the choices jade would be the one stirring up ****.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:39:00 - [84] They were like a deer in headlights when it came to exploration in a large hull'd vessel. WTF is their problem? I can do every level 4 mission in a raven but god forbid I can do exploration without having to travel a million F'ing jumps to pick up my combat vessel and come back to finish the site. These people are GD biased idiots. If you've never done it as a profession then stfu and let the people that have make the vote.
Haakelen United Forces	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:43:00 - [85] This is what you get for voting for Jade tbh.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:46:00 - [86] laffing like a mother ******
Fenir Vespin Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:13:00 - [87] At first I was sad that the person I voted for didn't make it, after reading this I'm a bit mad.
Kale Kold Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:18:00 - [88] OMG! I can't believe the transcript of this meeting! Are they all really arguing over how to hold meetings and cast votes? This reads of stupid petty squabblings of people who perceive themselves to be more important than they really are! My god! Is this the best that was taken from the EVE community? For crying out loud sack these people!!!
Joshua Foiritain Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:31:00 - [89] lol @ csm. -----
Shaikar PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:38:00 - [90] Edited by: Shaikar on 09/06/2008 12:39:10 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain lol @ csm. Vote alteration, petty bureaucracy, abuse of power, hours of talking whilst saying nothing. "Not fit for purpose" did sort of spring to mind...

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