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Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:19:00 - [301] Originally by: Stahlregen I'm still having a hard time understanding how Jade can maintain that he is in the right through all of this. Jade do you honestly think that avoiding tricky questions and passing the blame lends credence to your massive walls of words? I'm sure if you keep attacking he will eventually change his mind, resign from the chair, and cry in a corner. Wait, no he won't. He already said his peace and probably is going to focus on the next meeting to try and stay above the crap that everyone likes to sling. Mob politics is too brute.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:20:00 - [302] Originally by: Stahlregen It's previously been said that what Darius should really do is act completely submissive and let Jade do whatever the hell he wants . Thats right, beat that strawman. Ow, I beat he felt that one.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:26:00 - [303] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Kis Kecheri Again, you act like your comments could solve or sooth something. Those were obviously ment to drag the council into MORE INFIGHTING. It really doesn't matter how emotionally justified you feel you were. Constructive or solutions to problems they were not. Where did I say that? They were clearly meant to be durogatory to Jade. I never said otherwise. Jade broke the council by disenfranchising an elected representative. I responded in a semi-ugly fashion. Unlike Jade I can accept responsibility for my actions and will say that wasn't very professional. I will also add that the comments wouldn't have occurred if it hadn't broken the council process by bullying yet another council member. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, but I'm not denying anything... I had pushed for this and ALL communications to be completely public. I know when I say something it'll be read by everyone. I have nothing to hide whatsoever. Don't get me wrong Darius. I voted for you because I like your poltics. This isn't an attack on your person, its a counter-attack on the people attacking Jade for hypocritically stated reasons. The chairman needs power and the will to use it. People can debate the fine line all day but what people are currently flametraining is a point were anyone in Jades shoes is going to be expected to carry the burden of getting meetings done, on time, but with no real power. Or with limited power that it is afraid to use because the 'power-abuse' witch hunters come crawling out of the woodwork to beat him down.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:29:00 - [304] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Don't get me wrong Darius. I voted for you because I like your poltics. This isn't an attack on your person, its a counter-attack on the people attacking Jade for hypocritically stated reasons. The chairman needs power and the will to use it. People can debate the fine line all day but what people are currently flametraining is a point were anyone in Jades shoes is going to be expected to carry the burden of getting meetings done, on time, but with no real power. Or with limited power that it is afraid to use because the 'power-abuse' witch hunters come crawling out of the woodwork to beat him down. Had I been saying those things you quoted out of turn and been muted for that I'd have agreed with you. Unfortunately in this case I believe the 'power-abuse' witch hunters are correct. Really the logs speak for themselves.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:32:00 - [305] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now. Its not apples and oranges. Do you not believe that standing up for the rights of disenfranchised representatives is the thing you ought to do when someone runs roughshod over the rights of another? The analogies are fitting enough.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:44:00 - [306] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:45:31 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:44:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kis Kecheri Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now. Its not apples and oranges. Do you not believe that standing up for the rights of disenfranchised representatives is the thing you ought to do when someone runs roughshod over the rights of another? The analogies are fitting enough. Depends what you mean by 'standing up'. Nothing I quoted could be construed to be working toward that goal. It wasn't even criticism, it was just bait to start a mud fight. Since you like analogies I'll give you one. Suppose someone accidentally hit your dog with a car and was bleeding internally. It needs to get to the vet. Instead you drag the driver out of his automobile and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Your dog dies due to the trauma. What have you accomplished other then venting your anger? At any rate, I think Darius has said his peace and its at a point were we are agreeing to disagree.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:48:00 - [307] Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:02:00 - [308] Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 10/06/2008 23:02:44 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time. At what point did you ever think that any amount of changing the boundaries you could and couldn't do things was acceptable at all? I also want to know where in the hell you get off thinking that its okay to mute someone who is disagreeing with your methodology of being unfair disruptive to the meeting process if things aren't fair in the first place that trumps all other said issue. Its obvious you have no idea just what a chairman does to facility the meeting and you should step down be removed or learn really dam fast.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:03:00 - [309] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Depends what you mean by 'standing up'. Nothing I quoted could be construed to be working toward that goal. It wasn't even criticism, it was just bait to start a mud fight. Since you like analogies I'll give you one. Suppose someone accidentally hit your dog with a car and was bleeding internally. It needs to get to the vet. Instead you drag the driver out of his automobile and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Your dog dies due to the trauma. What have you accomplished other then venting your anger? At any rate, I think Darius has said his peace and its at a point were we are agreeing to disagree. This is not analogous. It is not because there is no fault of the driver. It is also not because the driver is not taking actions to disrupt the resolution of the matter. In this matter Jade is at fault and is disrupting the resolution of the matter.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:04:00 - [310] Thank you for finally accepting my points on all of the above, as this is what I have been asking and pointing out for the past 2 weeks! Of course, an apology for your earlier comments might not go amiss ;) It's good to see that from now on the CSM will be focussing on the IMPORTANT stuff of player issues. Lets hope the way forward is brighter... Take care, Bruce Hansen
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:14:00 - [311] I always have respect for a person that can admit when they were wrong. Apology accepted. take care, Bruce Hansen
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:37:00 - [312] Cheers to that, well done guys.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:44:00 - [313] what the hell? That's not an apology, he blames everyone-who's-not-him for 'ruining' his meetings then says he will veto any attempt to remove him from power. But whatevs nameless caldari guy and member of star fraction lets continue to pat ourselves on the back
Gorfob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:51:00 - [314] The CSM is a farce, has been from day one. Allow me to say but one thing. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:56:00 - [315] ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:57:00 - [316] Originally by: Anton Marvik ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end. like this is a recent development
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:57:00 - [317] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time. I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:07:00 - [318] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience. Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:09:00 - [319] Originally by: Jade Constantine me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Its fortunate the Chair isn't given the power to make such decisions.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:09:00 - [320] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience. Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. It's like each time your defense fails you just reach into a grab bag of excuses, cross your fingers, and throw it out there hoping it'll stick.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:14:00 - [321] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:17:00 - [322] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Wrong. Jade did what he thought was appropriate to keep the meeting in order. People are punching the driver because they feel they found some angle to abuse him with. No one attacking Jade is trying to resolve anything. They just want to kick him for the fun of it. The only ones that can do something construtive at this point is the CSM by buring the hatched and clarifying were the line can be drawn. That or CCP stepping in. Everything is just more **** in a sea of it. Who are you to state my motives? I want this CSM thing to work and find it abhorrent that Jade is abusing the process at every turn. It doesn't matter if Jade did what he thought was appropriate. That is the entire point. What Jade did was not appropriate. Everyone on the other side of the issue is looking for a resolution. The problem is that they are not looking for the resolution that Jade wants because the resolution that Jade wants involves creating powers out of thin air and letting Jade run roughshod over the rights of all council members. Hell Jade even says it in flat language for us, "I assure you I have every intention of being the very best representative I can be for those players that voted for my manifesto and want the kind of Eve I talked about there." There is another one here on this board where she flatly refuses to deal with anyone who doesn't agree with her.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:18:00 - [323] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:23:00 - [324] Originally by: Jade Constantine You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. You were clearly in control in the meeting according to the logs, and the requisite email tantrums. I'm afraid much like your inability to admit any fault whatsoever or wrongdoing, you also do not recognize when you are losing your cool. f13.net ring any bells? That whole conversation looks familiar for some reason... perhaps because it's every single one you have. If you're cool with CCP allowing this to turn into a joke (and by joke I mean your continued attempts at lordship) I'm sure everyone else will enjoy their trips to Iceland to learn about Icelandic democracy.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:26:00 - [325] Originally by: Anton Marvik ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end. Dear god Jade is MAD. He's Abolished the Senate and declared Martial law. THE CHINESE ARE INVADING. ISANITY
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:29:00 - [326] And my dog died and my time was stolen and my gf left and my house burned down (and 100 over terrible things the goons seem to think). Makes you think doesn't it, maybe Internet spaceships really are serious business CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:37:00 - [327] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. Yes we have Originally by: "Jade Constantine" WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
NerftheSmurf GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:45:00 - [328] jade please post the emails you sent to the other csms including their subject line so that everyone can see how you were calm and collected at all times
Daviclond GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:10:00 - [329] Originally by: Jade Constantine my gf fly away troll
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:37:00 - [330] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. Who is Kelsin?

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