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Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:04:00 - [241] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link? Probably not. Not all of them were recorded. Notice how Jade isn't saying she didn't say it. If you want to look in archives of this thread he was called out on it. You will notice in that thread Jade did not say he did not make the claim. Only refused to do it.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:04:00 - [242] You can ask Jade, since he isn't denying stating that he'd stand down as chairman Take care, Bruce Hansen
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:06:00 - [243] Originally by: Arithron Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages? Lol, seriously, only way it can be done is for us to raise an issue on the topic (as I've done with the electable chair proposal) we'll present it to CCP and ask if we can do it. If they say yes "its done". If that happens I'll set down and we'll have an elected chair immediately. I really don't understand where you are going with this line of questioning. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:09:00 - [244] Originally by: Arithron You can ask Jade, since he isn't denying stating that he'd stand down as chairman Take care, Bruce Hansen As far as I know there is no recording or mp3 or whatnot. It was an open vent session when I said I felt the CSM should have an elected chair and if I got elected I'd lobby to get the constitution changed issue raise->ccp agreed. I got asked - what if you win and become chairman? I said I'd still push for the measure and step down for re-election when it was done. Others have tried to make an issue of this. But really there is no issue. I'm intending to do what I said I'd do and try my best to get this measure though. If I can't get it through then I have absolutely no intention of resigning and I will stand as chair for the session regardless. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:12:00 - [245] Actually, you are supposed to be presenting to CCP PLAYER issues, not CSM constitution ones. You seem to make decisions in meetings and through votes that WILL NOT be put to CCP. This, frankly, is an abuse of power by the CSM, and not its purpose. CSM mechanisms, if in doubt, should be clarified through CCP directly, not group decisions by the Chair and representatives. Before clarification, if it takes some time to come, you should be guided by the CSM documents...which give you no rights to change/decide/propose alterations of the CSM constitution. Besides, any issue that is discussed and voted upon MUST be put to the players via the threads for 7 days... Bruce Hansen
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:13:00 - [246] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777318&page=1#17 Originally by: Jade Constantine Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. But for now we will follow the process we signed up to follow - hence I'm organizing the vote for the positions currently electable on the CSM (Vice-chair, Secretary, Vice-Secretary) according to the existing constitution. ... I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. He did at one point say he would step down, but changed his mind. Not that there is anything saying he can't go back on an off-handed comment on his own ventrilo server.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:14:00 - [247] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Arithron Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages? Lol, seriously, only way it can be done is for us to raise an issue on the topic (as I've done with the electable chair proposal) we'll present it to CCP and ask if we can do it. If they say yes "its done". If that happens I'll set down and we'll have an elected chair immediately. I really don't understand where you are going with this line of questioning. No, seriously. The CSM document clearly states that the Chairman can step down and the council can elect a new chairman. The "way" it happens is if you buck up and step down like you claimed. Do i have to get the quote and the page for you like we've had show you the chatlogs proving you are wrong in the primary matter of this thread?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:28:00 - [248] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 23:28:51 Originally by: Arithron Actually, you are supposed to be presenting to CCP PLAYER issues, not CSM constitution ones. You seem to make decisions in meetings and through votes that WILL NOT be put to CCP. This, frankly, is an abuse of power by the CSM, and not its purpose. CSM mechanisms, if in doubt, should be clarified through CCP directly, not group decisions by the Chair and representatives. Before clarification, if it takes some time to come, you should be guided by the CSM documents...which give you no rights to change/decide/propose alterations of the CSM constitution. Besides, any issue that is discussed and voted upon MUST be put to the players via the threads for 7 days... Bruce Hansen It was CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:34:00 - [249] Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 23:36:20 Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. I'm also asking for the written evidence that allows the CSM to vote on these matters at all. You have produced no evidence regarding CCP rulings on any matters regarding CSM constitution changes or CSM meetings etc. Bruce Hansen
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:39:00 - [250] Originally by: Arithron Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. Indeed and herein lies the problem as I've expressed elsewhere I feel that the CSM shouldn't have to spend all it's time trying to piece together a way for it to work and should in fact be discussing the issues that matter to us. Who is at fault in the end? Well i don't think it's Jade, I don't think it's Darius or Ank or any other CSM member I think the problem lies entirely with CCPs inability to organise it properly in the first place. ---

Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:49:00 - [251] Or the inability of the CSM to actually ask CCP for rulings and guidance on these matters. Instead, they chose to act outside their scope entirely.... Bruce Hansen
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:51:00 - [252] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 23:53:02 Originally by: Arithron Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 23:36:20 Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. I'm also asking for the written evidence that allows the CSM to vote on these matters at all. You have produced no evidence regarding CCP rulings on any matters regarding CSM constitution changes or CSM meetings etc. Bruce Hansen Thats because we're making it up as we go along Arithron. Sorry but there it is. I mean we could have met first time and said: "what shall we do?" "dunno" "Ummm what should we do?" "dunno" "How should we handle all this stuff?" "dunno" "We know! lets ask CCP!" "meeting adjourned" "drinks on me! Great meeting everyone!" (next meeting) "So what did they say?" "umm nothing really" "What?" "Yeah they said its all in the documentation" "Umm" "What?" "Lets ask for clarification!" "excellent meeting adjourned!" "Great meeting guys Drinks on me!" Instead we opted yes, to make it up as we went along and try and score the win condition of taking a bunch of issues to Iceland from a running start with 3 weeks and a bunch of forum trolling to put up with. End of the day we're going make that win condition and I for one am pretty happy to say to the electorate that they made the right choice to elect some can-do grifters in the role rather than a bunch of people who wouldn't dare take a move without everything signed and sealed in triplicate with the favorable entrails of a dove and the blessing of a local clergyman. Have we made mistakes? hell yes. Have we at least got something done hell yes. Lets have a big drink of glass half full here and look on the bright side you bunch of moody so-and-sos! CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:55:00 - [253] Originally by: Bane Glorious http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777318&page=1#17 Originally by: Jade Constantine Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. But for now we will follow the process we signed up to follow - hence I'm organizing the vote for the positions currently electable on the CSM (Vice-chair, Secretary, Vice-Secretary) according to the existing constitution. ... I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. He did at one point say he would step down, but changed his mind. Not that there is anything saying he can't go back on an off-handed comment on his own ventrilo server. So every record of Jade's position on this is consistent, except for the one recounted by an unknown person who heard it differently late one night?
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:59:00 - [254] Who are you calling a moody so-and-so? I think you do a disservice to those candidates who were unsuccessful by suggesting that they would have not applied themselves diligently to the job as most of the CSM representatives have done. Your assertions regarding CCP are frankly unfair, as you did have a CCP member in your first meeting where you could have put CSM mechanism specifics to get clarification. Besides, I am sure they would have given requests from the CSM on CSM matters good thought and prompt response. It still gives the CSM no right to 'make things up' and step outside their remit, as specified in the CSM documentation. That was an error I am glad to see you have finally admitted to. Thank you. Time for the CSM to send a mail to CCP regarding some CSM mechanism questions and Constitutional matters eh? Take care, Bruce Hansen
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:05:00 - [255] Originally by: Arithron Your assertions regarding CCP are frankly unfair, as you did have a CCP member in your first meeting where you could have put CSM mechanism specifics to get clarification. Besides, I am sure they would have given requests from the CSM on CSM matters good thought and prompt response. I don't believe that they are that unfair to be honest as the communications from CCP in regards to what was asked of them to do by the CSM were all along the lines of "Soon" which is hardly the mark of an organisation going out of it's way to help things along. Originally by: CSM#3 Jade Constantine > Okay Jade Constantine > I wrote to CCP Jade Constantine > and they told me in response Jade Constantine > 1. the colour bars are supposed to be happening (soon) Dierdra Vaal > (tm) Jade Constantine > 2. the csm forum is in progress but also not ready Inanna Zuni > "(soon" ahuh ... Jade Constantine > 3. the publishing of minutes has been delayed also and its their fault not Anks Jade Constantine > so pass their apologies Jade Constantine > thats the conclusion of that item Quote: It still gives the CSM no right to 'make things up' and step outside their remit, as specified in the CSM documentation. That was an error I am glad to see you have finally admitted to. Thank you. Unfortuntly some of these matters needed asking as there were no guidelines. But yes it certainly shouldn't be the CSM who is doing this. Quote: Time for the CSM to send a mail to CCP regarding some CSM mechanism questions and Constitutional matters eh? Agreed here's hoping that the response given is better than the responses given so far. ---
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:14:00 - [256] Originally by: Arithron Who are you calling a moody so-and-so? You actually. You've stalked these forums for the last three weeks like some kind of morbid vulture picking holes and singing songs of doom and gloom and anytime anybody actually tries to engage with you they get more carping criticism and nit-picking leaving the poor respondent wondering they bothered in the first place. I've tried to explain the situation to you but you still insist on trying to blame and whine and complain about whats been done over the course of three weeks of frenetic struggle to get this show on the road. At this stage Arithron though I'm deeply tempted to tell you where to get off I'm still going to advise my fellow CSM reps to try and reach middle ground with you on these multi-item issues, but I'm going ask you in turn to shelve the pettifoggery for long enough to see we are actually trying to work with you here and do the best we can do. But if you can't do that well, nobody can say I didn't try. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:17:00 - [257] Why is it always somebody else's fault, Jade?
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:18:00 - [258] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating **er. You are so transparent its not even funny. Bears repeating. Can't believe you're on your high horse here, Darius. Sort your own act out before throwing stones please. Frankly though, the blame lies at the feet of all the CSM reps for the problems in this meeting. I think it also bears repeating that things were achieved in this meeting, despite the difficulties.** That actually augurs well for the CSM. Things can improve, certainly. I'm confident they will. But that things were still done in these, the most trying of times, suggests that when things sort themselves out, the CSM will get a great deal done, and may just turn out to be a vehicle for positive change. I realise drama is the lifeblood of eve, but try and keep some perspective people.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:19:00 - [259] Originally by: Anton Marvik Why is it always somebody else's fault, Jade? Why do you feel the need to troll every thread this evening? Its one of those perennial questions of the human condition isn't it? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:20:00 - [260] Originally by: Jade Constantine Why do you feel the need to troll every thread this evening? Its one of those perennial questions of the human condition isn't it? Are we back to trolls and goon conspiracy?

Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:25:00 - [261] Originally by: Anton Marvik Are we back to trolls and goon conspiracy? To be fair I think conspiracy is pushing it just a tad too far when you look at your posting history today. Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people. So yeah I think the troll words fits in pretty well here. Post somethign constructive with even a hint of middle ground and you might find people more willing to give your words some credence. ---
Dippin Dots	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:26:00 - [262] It is clear that CCP did not hand you a constitution by which you are intended to funciton, and that is most likely intentional, merely some suggestions/guidelines. Just look at the game and how it is played, you are the first set of elected representatives. It is your job to serve as the "founding fathers" and write the constitution. If you did that, worked together and wrote the basic outline of the constitution, selected your rules of operating procedure yourselves *and followed it* -- and when you met with CCP insisted that they recognise your player designed constitution formed by player elected representatives, they would really have no choice but to recognise it (outside of course, the actions of one 'government' (CCP) choosing not to recognise another government (the CSM) just as happens in "real world politics" (mainland China throwing their weight around to discourage, for example, the USA to not recognise the government of Tiwan officially)). I'd like to add that up until I read this thread I was on a trial account, and for some madhouse reason this actually made me want to activate my account. You have a huge opportunity here to form a player goverment in a very very political game. In all honesty, there is no reason this could not have been done before entirely on the will of the players alone without CCP saying you could do it (with of course the dubious question looming about voting/vote validity, but thats really no different than any "real world" government).
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 - [263] Welcome to Eve, Dippin.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 - [264] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 00:30:39 Originally by: Heartstone To be fair I think conspiracy is pushing it just a tad too far I thought so too, let Jade know. Originally by: Heartstone Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people. If reality annoys you. Originally by: Heartstone Post somethign constructive with even a hint of middle ground and you might find people more willing to give your words some credence. I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:41:00 - [265] Originally by: Anton Marvik If reality annoys you. Oh it doesn't annoy me in the least actually it is just the intention I was looking at. Quote: I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me. Hmm getting people to agree to what they already agree to isn't a trick. Getting people to listen to what you say and alter their opinion or at least make them think is rather the point and I don't think that you've really done that with the way you have gone about it today which was more my point. You are assuing Jade of simply not lending weight to your words becuase he disagrees but you have been doin the same all day since hat thread came into being. In anycase I hope tomorrow brings about a few more cooler heads and a few less tantrums on these forums (not that I am holding my breath on that one ;) ) ---
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:43:00 - [266] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 00:44:13 Originally by: Heartstone Hmm getting people to agree to what they already agree to isn't a trick. Getting people to listen to what you say and alter their opinion or at least make them think is rather the point and I don't think that you've really done that with the way you have gone about it today which was more my point. I don't wish to change people's minds or alter their opinions. I don't have an agenda like yourself. Plenty of people came to the realization that Jade is out of control on their own. Originally by: Heartstone You are assuing Jade of simply not lending weight to your words becuase he disagrees but you have been doin the same all day since hat thread came into being. Either that or he really believes the goon conspiracy tripe in which case he is mentally ill.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:44:00 - [267] Originally by: Anton Marvik I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me. Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:46:00 - [268] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. You've already shown that you love no less than punishing those who disagree with you. I appreciate the fodder, however.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:53:00 - [269] Edited by: Heartstone on 10/06/2008 00:55:46 Originally by: Anton Marvik I don't wish to change people's minds or alter their opinions. I don't have an agenda like yourself. Plenty of people came to the realization that Jade is out of control on their own. No offense but I am unsure of your reason for posting then. Do you simply wish to see your words on the forums? Surely the whole point of the Forums is to encourage deabte and discussion which is obviously partly about altering people's opinions to an extent. As for you not having an agenda well it's quite clear you do as you posted an issue thread for such an item ;) I certainly do have an agenda. I wish the CSM to work. I believe CCP is at fault in the main for the problems with the CSM and I think flaming Jade continutally doesn't help to make things better. Of course being in Star Fraction, I know Jade personally and don't like to see him insulted and called things that are untrue but I will live with it as he will. As for being out of control i think half the problem as stated by Cosmo on another thread somewhere is that people don't seem to realise how much control a Chairman should be exerting on a commitee. That is of course nobodies fault as not many people have experience on serving as a chairman of a commitee. In any case the chairman's control or lack thereof is still a matter that should have been address by CCP in a properly prepared document rather than left to the first commitee to figure out for themselves. I realise many people don't like restrictive rules and in most things neither do I but a commitee without a solid structure and control by a chairperson does not work and I would rather like to see this particualr commitee succeed. /me goes to bed before he has to be up again. ---
Erik Amirault GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:00:00 - [270] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. That was probably the least threatening threat and the wussiest burn in the history of Eve online.



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