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CSM Council Members Kicking and Muting eachother like Children

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Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:08:00 - [121] Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Cassandra Valieries	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:10:00 - [122] And here I was thinking I was bad at running meetings, guess I'm not that bad after all... Jade, you need to step down as chairman, you are very obviously not fit for the position. Do it yourself and you might save some dignity...
Fergus Nuada Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:11:00 - [123] Originally by: Tarminic ...Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I bet they will- people tend to behave more respectfully when face to face as opposed to via a keyboard.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:11:00 - [124] Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Actually the largest national contingents are Dutch (3) and English (3). We also have one Dane and just two Americans ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:17:00 - [125] Originally by: Hardin Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' With all due respect to yourself and to the others who are actually taking this seriously, it's deplorable how much time is wasted in these meetings for petty and ridiculous stuff. If you guys need clarifications on what you should be doing and how you should be doing it with regard to the constitutions you should talk to ccp directly and stop wasting time with this inconsequential excrement that has happened for the last three meetings. You should not be voting on or discussing how the CSM should be run, you should be discussing and voting on issues that the community has brought to your attention. Your current chairman is more interested in petty bureaucratic issues which at the end of it all have no bearing whatsoever with what you guys were elected to do. Stop bringing up these issues with the CSM during the meetings and if you must talk about them do it on your own time on the forums or in private and then bring them to ccp yourselves. You are not serving the community with this. You should be talking about internet spaceships so for the love of all that is holy, please do it.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:26:00 - [126] Originally by: Hardin Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' I totally agree - keep your eyes on the prize. I do think a voice chat might be preferable though, one would hope that would cut down on the distracting parenthetical asides.
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:29:00 - [127] @halca, if you havent decided how exactly the voting is done it is pretty useless to vote. So it is normal to first decide about such things
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:32:00 - [128] Originally by: Furb Killer @halca, if you havent decided how exactly the voting is done it is pretty useless to vote. So it is normal to first decide about such things This is a problem for ccp to clarify, not for them to decide arbitrarily in a meeting that is being misused for bureacratic silliness. They are there to represent us, not to play at politics.
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:37:00 - [129] The problem wasnt that, the problem was that jade wasnt exactly ideal, but also that many other members had serious issues about knowing when to shut up. 8 people trying to speak at same time on eve in game chat just does not work.
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:40:00 - [130] Originally by: Furb Killer The problem wasnt that, the problem was that jade wasnt exactly ideal, but also that many other members had serious issues about knowing when to shut up. 8 people trying to speak at same time on eve in game chat just does not work. My problem is that every single argument to date has been about some petty bureucratic crap that has no bearing on any of the actual issues being raised. Ironically when they discuss real issues they get voted on and resolved quickly. Instead we're forced to suffer through pages of chatlogs about stuff nobody really cares about. If they are really struggling this much at understanding what they should be doing and how it should be done then maybe it's time for them to go talk to ccp for clarifications instead of wasting so much time on this piffle.
Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:41:00 - [131] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 09/06/2008 15:41:39 Well, I read the CSM logs and would agree, they were fiasco-tastic. So, I thought a bit, and suggested this solution: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792897 Have a read. San Matari Official forums
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:42:00 - [132] Well the meeting was 75% fiasco, 25% useful. But ultimately good issues got onto the agenda including the council-voted CSM chair. I'll be pushing that one in Iceland and hopefully it gets added to the constitution. If it does I'll be stepping down from chair and seeing what the re-vote brings. The council will be able to vote for its own chair and I'll probably get to sit back and sip fine wine. But at least I'll have cat-herded some decent issues onto the agenda and made a progressive change to the constitution in the inaugural CSM. Anything else is pure froth at this point. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:42:00 - [133] Unfortunately Halca CCP did not give us specifics on how this would work. We are therefore having to develop a 'constitution' as we go along. Therefore this first CSM was always going to be a bit 'messy' until basic procedures are put in place. In theory subsequent CSM's will then have a 'structure' to work from and can avoid some of the more pointless 'procedural' debates. ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:44:00 - [134] Originally by: Quelque Chose So did they just not adopt a parliamentary procedure at all? Pretty much, yeah. I find this rather surprising, actually - CCP can quote a dozen philosophers in their founding document for this group, but they can't toss in a one-liner about using XYZ's Rules of Order. Has nobody there ever been in on a meeting? ------------------ Fix the forums!
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:45:00 - [135] Originally by: Hardin Unfortunately Halca CCP did not give us specifics on how this would work. We are therefore having to develop a 'constitution' as we go along. Therefore this first CSM was always going to be a bit 'messy' until basic procedures are put in place. In theory subsequent CSM's will then have a 'structure' to work from and can avoid some of the more pointless 'procedural' debates. Talk to CCP about it please, if this is the case then you are doomed to continued failure. You guys know you are wasting time with this, so do something about it. I seriously doubt CCP will refuse to help on this issue but if they do I'm sure you guys could raise some hell if it was brought to light. So far these meetings have been deplorable and they seem to be getting worse.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:52:00 - [136] I cannot believe we're expected to pay for you all to have a free holiday to Iceland. It makes me sick that we're expected to pay T20's wages, but this as well, it's utterly pukeworthy, and hiding it some irrelevant CSM forum won't make it go away either. --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:53:00 - [137] Halca, I have to disagree with you. There have been plenty of 'good results' out of the first few meetings in the shape of issues being brought forward to Iceland - the majority pretty unanimously. Yes the chatlogs are messy - and plain childish at points - but please look at the bigger picture. If CSM can actually deliver CCP action on even 50% of the items we already have on the agenda I would consider the process to have been successful. Of course that still needs to happen but hopefully once we move to the face to face part people will be more reasonable (well I hope so anyway) ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:55:00 - [138] Do CSM members have staff working for them? Or will Vista have to re-write that document on his own? -------------------
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:04:00 - [139] Originally by: Hardin Halca, I have to disagree with you. There have been plenty of 'good results' out of the first few meetings in the shape of issues being brought forward to Iceland - the majority pretty unanimously. Yes the chatlogs are messy - and plain childish at points - but please look at the bigger picture. If CSM can actually deliver CCP action on even 50% of the items we already have on the agenda I would consider the process to have been successful. Of course that still needs to happen but hopefully once we move to the face to face part people will be more reasonable (well I hope so anyway) I didn't mean to say that the CSM have done nothing Hardin, merely that you could achieve substantially more without this level of bureacracy for the sake of bureaucracy. Talk to CCP about the constitution and formalise the rules, get them to clarify it and you will have more time to deal with the issues instead of wasting your time on something they might not be happy with anyway and in my opinion is beyond your remit in the first place.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:13:00 - [140] Originally by: Jacque Custeau Do CSM members have staff working for them? Or will Vista have to re-write that document on his own? I am sure he could ask for help, but otherwise he has to re-write it on his own. And all the CSMs have to do their "write up" on their own. Then again, that "write up" seems to be "linking to forum threads"
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:14:00 - [141] Originally by: Halca I didn't mean to say that the CSM have done nothing Hardin, merely that you could achieve substantially more without this level of bureacracy for the sake of bureaucracy. Talk to CCP about the constitution and formalise the rules, get them to clarify it and you will have more time to deal with the issues instead of wasting your time on something they might not be happy with anyway and in my opinion is beyond your remit in the first place. I have to agree that this has been a sore point with me the entire time. CCP should have defined these things. Yesterday's meeting was the first time I can recall the concept of a "Constitution" being thrown around and I can't say I'm for the idea at all. Essentially I don't see a reason we couldn't all just sit down and discuss and vote on the issues without the need for all the stupid posturing and power grabbing. Instead of a group of adults sitting in a room treating each other as thus we're left with petty squabbling over stupid e-powers that were never defined or even essentially necessary. I'd have assumed at some point CCP would step in and end the idiocy but perhaps they see some merit in the experiment. Essentially everyone has their own ideas about what CSM is and what their roles and responsibilities are. This is now most obvious in the chairmanship role. I see it (and the document seems to define it) as someone who schedules and facilitates the meetings and codifies the agenda. Jade appears to view it as the person "in charge" of the CSM, with signing, discussion moderating and vote defining authority. An executive if you will. I don't think anyone expected to have a "boss" in this and I don't think anyone signed on for that. I also don't think CCP intended such, as there's no way to make that work.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:25:00 - [142] Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. What that actually means is the issue that causes such friction. Last night we got into a ridiculous series of problems because NOBODY amongst the CSM committee (thats all nine members) had the wit (myself included) to quote the piece from the founding document that specified simple majority voting was the default rule. Instead we had had a 5/4 in the committee on the issue and I tried to get clarification with a vote - vote was resolved, some people felt they weren't bound by the vote. Eventually Husko pointed out the quote from the founding documentation and we had a re-vote that signified our (re)adoption of the simple majority voting system. Now I lost patience with a CSM member continually interrupting these votes with off-topic comments, critiques of spelling and grammar, and general disparagement on the real life knowledge of people debating with them. Question is - what do you do as Chair of a committee in a text-based chat when somebody WILL NOT, follow the procedures of discussion and voting and is continually interrupting? Face to face its easy, you look them in the eye and ask them to behave and restate the principle that you raise your hand to be recognized. In a text chat in a badly overrunning meeting where we have the time pressure of knowing that anything we don't consider will NOT be on the formal Iceland agenda and you have a recipe of bad-tempered exchanges and frustration for all concerned. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Nastasia Muse deii feram	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:35:00 - [143] It's not that I'm surprised that Jade has managed to alienate so many people with pompous, self-serving and narcissistic behaviour that would shame a spoilt 12-year-old. I'm merely surprised that it has taken so long. Three weeks for him to be revealed in his egotistical glory is far longer than I expected. Who would have thought that somebody banned by CCP for disruptive behaviour on the forums would turn out to be a disastrous, self-centred and comedic failure as a chair?
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:35:00 - [144] Originally by: Jade Constantine Now I lost patience with a CSM member continually interrupting these votes with off-topic comments, critiques of spelling and grammar, and general disparagement on the real life knowledge of people debating with them. Question is - what do you do as Chair of a committee in a text-based chat when somebody WILL NOT, follow the procedures of discussion and voting and is continually interrupting? Face to face its easy, you look them in the eye and ask them to behave and restate the principle that you raise your hand to be recognized. In a text chat in a badly overrunning meeting where we have the time pressure of knowing that anything we don't consider will NOT be on the formal Iceland agenda and you have a recipe of bad-tempered exchanges and frustration for all concerned. Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? Face to face you won't have a mute button. If you think you're going to railroad your agenda there as well I can assure you, you will find it significantly less easy.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:38:00 - [145] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker They get free trips to Iceland. I wish! Yes, we get to spend three days at the offices of CCP and spend another day flying there and flying home again. In that trip are three weekdays - usually working days for most people - as well as a weekend. Thus "free" is misleading. There are three days to be taken as holiday from work (aka losing three days holiday when we normally would have planned to take it) and there will be numerous small expenses related to our trip which won't be recoverable (I am told that beer / alcohol generally is way more expensive in Iceland, for a start!). Overall, we are going there to work and will each incur unavoidable / unrecoverable expenses; this isn't a playtime at fanfest ... IZ ps. Re the thread title: "Members" didn't kick and mute each other ... not plural ... singular. My principles
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:38:00 - [146] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? The logs show otherwise. Read them. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:41:00 - [147] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/06/2008 16:41:57 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? The logs show otherwise. Read them. Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.)
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:46:00 - [148] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.) CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:54:00 - [149] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 16:55:15 Originally by: Slash Harnet Good ol' CSM members, if you're reading this, you may want to look at getting a neutral NON-VOTING parliamentarian to run your meetings. The kind of bias in those logs is inexcusable for someone running that kind of meeting. That a Chair can be neutral and unbiased during a meeting, and assist the parties present through the discussions (and remove themselves from the chair temporarily if they wish to say something about the subject under discussion) is not a difficult thing to achieve. I've done it and I'm sure other members of the CSM have, just as I'm certain many forum readers / EVE pilots generally have. It shouldn't be the case that we need some referee in there alongside the Chair. In the elections I was the ninth person to be seated in the Council, but the rules say we are all equal once we are serving on the CSM. That appears to be regularly forgotten by some (hence my reminding them) and though I didn't get overwhelming support I was elected and thus I serve all pilots throughout EVE, not just those who voted for me. I am not answerable to my corp or alliance (indeed you may have noted disagreements I've had with my corp's leader on the forums!) and don't have to 'politik' my statements or decisions other than to do what I believe is in the best interests of all pilots. I would like to believe that last night's meeting was an aberration and we will move on positively in future. IZ ps. Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Two of Nine isn't "primarily" sfaiaa ... My principles
NerftheSmurf GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:56:00 - [150] hey jade could you just copy/paste in the chatlogs that show the disruptive influence that forced you to mute a csm tia

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