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Jamie Hara	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:12:00 - [1] After reading the logs from the latest CSM meeting it seems like some of the council members are acting like immature children and muting and kicking each other from the channel where the meeting was held. What are these people doing on this council if they have to resort to kicking and muting in order to solve conflicts . You would expect these people to at least behave like adults and be able to talk to each other without kicking people . I guess CCP will have to continue to communicate with their customers using these forums instead since this CSM thing obviously isn't working. You can't really blame CCP though. They didn't vote for the candidate(s) that obviously aren't up to the task of acting like adults. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:15:00 - [2] Wild speculation : could it be that the "kicking and muting" was generally done by two, maybe three particular CSM members ? Nope, haven't listened to it yet, so I'm just asking. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
DubanFP Four Rings Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:15:00 - [3] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/06/2008 04:15:37 lol, i'd be a liar if i said i was surprized. Just look at the forums. Also it would be a good idea to post a link the the chatlog here though. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:16:00 - [4] Originally by: Jamie Hara After reading the logs from the latest CSM meeting it seems like some of the council members are acting like immature children and muting and kicking each other from the channel where the meeting was held. What are these people doing on this council if they have to resort to kicking and muting in order to solve conflicts . You would expect these people to at least behave like adults and be able to talk to each other without kicking people . I guess CCP will have to continue to communicate with their customers using these forums instead since this CSM thing obviously isn't working. You can't really blame CCP though. They didn't vote for the candidate(s) that obviously aren't up to the task of acting like adults. Quote: [ 2008.06.08 19:33:39 ]Jade Constantine >************************** ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:19:00 - [5] ROFL. So it begins. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Jade Constantine As of this moment zero issues have been formally transmitted to CCP in the format of a submission template. HELLS YES. Keep up the good work, Jade Constantine. If you continue to put forth no issues I'll actually vote to keep you in, bro. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Jamie Hara	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:25:00 - [7] Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:58 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote". [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ] EVE System > Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05. I posted this thread here because I wanted to bring attention to the eve community that this could have a negative affect on the relationship between CCP and their customers. For the people who do not know what the CSM is The CSM consists of nine player-elected representatives of the community. Members of the Council are to meet regularly with CCP staff in Iceland to relay the most pressing matters from the community and to take CCP's decisions back to the player base. Jade Constantine and Inanna Zuni are elected council members of the Council of Stellar Management. Hope this helps. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:28:00 - [8] Where can we see logs like you stated? www.siigarikitawa.com
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:29:00 - [9] Question : where the hell are those chatlogs ? I can't seem to find them quickly where I looked for them, and since you already read them you could probably point me in the right direction faster. 1\|2\|3\|4\|5
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:30:00 - [10] Originally by: Jamie Hara For the people who do not know what the CSM is Tbqfh who your rep is is irrelevant as your going to get moar done by using the tried and true forum route than some dodgy council members 'influance'. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan

Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Where can we see logs like you stated? not a trojan or rick roll ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:30:00 - [12] http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf I'm reading them right now. So far it's pretty lulz. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Vaal Erit http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf I'm reading them right now. So far it's pretty lulz. OMG. And these guys get a free ticket to Iceland?! WTF I knew I should have ran. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Sicil Fioet	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:36:00 - [14] people just voted for someone who they like/know, it is hard to determine someone's ability to debate effectively within a group if you personally haven't had discussions with that player in my experience discussions within a group can get more productive over time as people get to know each other better and may be adopt a better framework for discussions
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:51:00 - [15] Edited by: cal nereus on 09/06/2008 04:51:38 It's still better than many democratic institutions... which isn't saying much, but that's democracy for you. I'm just glad that they aren't agreeing too much. It's better for the CSM to have a wide variety of different and opposed opinions and personalities than for them to all be the same and agree with each other. We'd have real trouble then... --- Earning Isk Basic Skills
Jaun Xiou	Posted - 2008.06.09 04:59:00 - [16] You get what you deserve. People ignored that fact that forum *****s like jade constantine had numerous Bans for disruptive forum trolling. And ignored that fact that she single handedly destroyed an alliance through Manipulation and disruptive behaviour. This is what you all deserve for not bothering todo research. I never had any hope that this CSM council would achieve anything,and once i saw the elected members i had a chuckle. Will the next CSM be any different? Probably not, people are lazy, and will allways vote for the persons name they remember, the one that theve seen post the most Forum threads
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:04:00 - [17] [ 2008.06.08 19:47:50 ]Bane Glorious >i just want to talk about spaceships please This is after nearly two hours of them talking about themselves and arguing like children! I haven't even read to the part where they mute each other yet... ---------------- [insert signature here]
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:06:00 - [18] From what I've read, the majority of issues they've voted on have been passed unanimously or close to it. They just haven't had much time to do anything, that's all. --- Earning Isk Basic Skills
DubanFP Four Rings Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:08:00 - [19] Edited by: DubanFP on 09/06/2008 05:08:23 See if you think that this meeting was bad imagine the next meeting when several of them enter it with a chip on their shoulder. _______________ ReiAyanami> We bring you tidings of AARRRRRRRRR
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:12:00 - [20] Ok like right now they are talking about whether an abstain counts as a no or not. And it is hilarious because some of these people claim to have been in real life meetings when it is pretty obvious that they don't know simple voting rules. Abstain votes do not count towards the majority. You should not be allowed to have your physical presence counted toward the constitution of a quorum and at the same time be allowed to deny in effect, your official presence by a failure to vote. I could go on and on, but man I can't believe the CSM got that one wrong. Oh man, just rofls. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, so according to the CSM and CCP 3 votes aye and 4 abstains = fail? Wtf is that? Have you heard of the roberts rules or order? Have you looked up abstain in the dictionary? Abstain vote is an oxymoron, abstain means not to participate. It's like a working holiday. Wtf is that, are you working or are you on holiday. It's nutty. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

Sha'Aryn	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:20:00 - [21] I don't see a problem. They're functioning as effectively as any other R/L political enterprise.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:24:00 - [22] [ 2008.06.08 21:24:42 ]Serenity Steele >/emote signals to anyone reading the chat logs, that they may want to do something more productive with their life as this discussion comes up again. This is 3.5 hours in... ---------------- [insert signature here]
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:27:00 - [23] Looks at IRL politics. Is not surprised.
Shadow Joy	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:30:00 - [24] How is this different from any other government?
YunFu Yan Yan Enterprises	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:30:00 - [25] Surprise, surprise! ------------------------------------------------- Yan Enterprises - We mean business.
Mystri	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:34:00 - [26] Originally by: log of CSM meeting (Page 44) [ 2008.06.08 21:35:52 ]Jade Constantine >Innana I'm giving you a second formal warning for this session for interruptions and interfering with the process of the chair [ 2008.06.08 21:36:09 ]Jade Constantine >Now then: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:11 ]Inanna Zuni >and what do you mean by that? [ 2008.06.08 21:36:14 ]Hardin >what is a formal warning? [ 2008.06.08 21:36:19 ]LaVista Vista >I'm sorry Jade? [ 2008.06.08 21:36:21 ]Inanna Zuni >"Formal warning" is a misnomer [ 2008.06.08 21:36:25 ]Darius JOHNSON >Your warnings don't mean a thing FYI [ 2008.06.08 21:36:36 ]Inanna Zuni >and how can I be interrupting when I am completing what i type? [ 2008.06.08 21:36:58 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote". [ 2008.06.08 21:37:04 ]Ankhesentapemkah >Some order please. You couldn't make this stuff up. In summary: Originally by: log of CSM meeting (Page 49) [ 2008.06.08 22:02:28 ]LaVista Vista >This is a waste of everybody's time [ 2008.06.08 22:02:33 ]Jade Constantine >yes it is [ 2008.06.08 22:02:33 ]LaVista Vista >And I have an exam tomorrow. [ 2008.06.08 22:02:40 ]Serenity Steele >Move to close. Discuss this in CAOD where it belongs. [ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on At least something was established... 4 hours later. I hope Eve-TV records the meeting in Iceland, i do enjoy a comedy. Mystri
Big Al The Aftermath	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:37:00 - [27] Edited by: Big Al on 09/06/2008 05:37:56 CSM in joke status shocker. Seriously, no one cares, otherwise they wouldn't have voted based the appeal of a woman's car.
The Ubernomicon	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:47:00 - [28] Edited by: The Ubernomicon on 09/06/2008 05:47:35 Originally by: Big Al Edited by: Big Al on 09/06/2008 05:37:56 CSM in joke status shocker. Seriously, no one cares, otherwise they wouldn't have voted based the appeal of a woman's car. I voted for her because of all obvious rump shots.
An Anarchyyt Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:52:00 - [29] I want to point out that I 100% am happy with darius JOHNSON, my elected representative. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:55:00 - [30] This'll be real funny when they meet in person. I wanna see the video of the guys in their 30s yelling across the table at the 14-year-olds, especially the little girly boy who has the gavel. ---------------- [insert signature here]

LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:56:00 - [31] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 09/06/2008 05:56:49 A lot of the criticism that was established prior to the CSM was indeed justified during this meeting. The way Jade kept ignoring members of the council who didn't agree with him and muted Inanna because of stupid reasons(Which he is YET to justify btw) was just pathetic. I understand that you guys aren't happy. But I'm NOT happy either. But I hope you understand that these issues are caused by certain individuals either. Some of us DID try to recover that cluster****. But we were merely ignored by the chairman. EDIT: Spelling
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.09 05:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker This'll be real funny when they meet in person. I wanna see the video of the guys in their 30s yelling across the table at the 14-year-olds, especially the little girly boy who has the gavel. Oh dear. The visual of that has me almost in tears. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:00:00 - [33] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker This'll be real funny when they meet in person. I wanna see the video of the guys in their 30s yelling across the table at the 14-year-olds, especially the little girly boy who has the gavel. Since I'm effectively the youngest council member, I fully approve of this. But I think there will be more order in Iceland. The way we conduct meetings now is HIGHLY ineffective. I believe if we used eve voice or the like, things would be much more orderly.
Domania Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:00:00 - [34] [ 2008.06.08 21:54:33 ]Jade Constantine >Inanna I'll ask you to stop making false accusations about being kicked and blocked too. O NOM NOM NOM NOM!!!!!! Time to vote and find new people! Everyone in favor, say aye or nay or you can just abstain!
Sicil Fioet	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:02:00 - [35] from that convo i carried that these meetings aren't going to work well with the current chaiman being jade ...
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:02:00 - [36] CSM members are still getting settled in so the first meetings are supposed to be pointless. The point is that if all these people meet in RL it will change for the better. If you ever attended long boring corporate meetings you'd know.
Zeba Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:02:00 - [37] Originally by: LaVista Vista The way we conduct meetings now is HIGHLY ineffective. I believe if we used eve voice or the like, things would be much more orderly. This must be recorded when it happens. MUST I say. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:08:00 - [38] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: LaVista Vista The way we conduct meetings now is HIGHLY ineffective. I believe if we used eve voice or the like, things would be much more orderly. This must be recorded when it happens. MUST I say. CCP is able to record serverside with Vivox's EVE Voice. So that shouldn't be too hard. While I'm not a big fan of eve voice, it's much better than text-based. Only issue I see is editing out secret information and quoting the meeting for future reference.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:19:00 - [39] Jade constantine is roleplaying as if hes in front of congress. That will never, ever work. There is no "have the floor" in a chat room. Heres what you guys do. Heres yet another freebee that I really need to stop giving out but hay i'm used to being exploited \o/ Use a forum to separate the topics into their own threads. You post a complete thought without interruption. You don't all have to be logged in at the same time. And when it comes time to hold a "meeting", for god sake use voicechat.
Illaria	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:28:00 - [40] Edited by: Illaria on 09/06/2008 06:28:43 I really don't understand why the meetings have to be chat based. Chats aren't suitable tools for communicating and discussing complex matters. Why isn't there a internal forum for the CSM. Though forums are also used for trolling, they at at least sometimes come up with something productive, while I still have to witness something worthwhile being discussed in chats. Also a forum would have numerous advantages. Instead of having a set date on which all participants have to attend, you could set a time window for discussion and a deadline for votes.

Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:29:00 - [41] Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/06/2008 06:28:43 You cant effectively hold a 'meeting' with 7 people on a chat program. What else is new today? Rain is wet? Front of a train is stronger than your head?
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:31:00 - [42] Originally by: Illaria I really don't understand why the meetings have to be chat based. Chats aren't suitable tools for communicating and discussing complex matters. They get free trips to Iceland. We get some comedy and drama. Voice chat would multiply the hilarity tenfold, but honestly I don't have five hours to listen in on a voice meeting between those clowns! ------------------------------------------------
Keeves Sexy Pirate Club	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:50:00 - [43] voice comm's anyone? (gratz to all the people who voted in Jade; brilliant)
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 06:53:00 - [44] Wait, i didnt check entire chat log, but i didnt see wall of text. This can only mean one thing. The jade in the chat is an imposter
Spineker	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:07:00 - [45] Edited by: Spineker on 09/06/2008 07:08:04 I voted for you Vista because of your post on the forum and what you wanted to do. You need to drag some stability in there. Plus you have the balls to come here and post that is worth something too. Ahh it feels good to yell at a rep. Or we can just pod them over and over.
Xparky Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:11:00 - [46] USE VOICE !!! .
Level4 Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:24:00 - [47] Edited by: Level4 on 09/06/2008 07:24:43 New teams go trough 5 stages during their lifecycle... as explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forming-storming-norming-performing At this stage it feels like the CSM team is in the storming stage... these things take time, just be patient folks, if we can wait 3 months for an economic newsletter from CCP, surelly we can give the CSM a bit more time to resolve their differences. for those who dont like clicking on links Quote: Storming Every group will then enter the storming stage in which different ideas compete for consideration. The team addresses issues such as what problems they are really supposed to solve, how they will function independently and together and what leadership model they will accept. Team members open up to each other and confront each other's ideas and perspectives. In some cases storming can be resolved quickly. In others, the team never leaves this stage. The maturity of some team members usually determines whether the team will ever move out of this stage. Immature team members will begin acting out to demonstrate how much they know and convince others that their ideas are correct. Some team members will focus on minutiae to evade real issues. The storming stage is necessary to the growth of the team. It can be contentious, unpleasant and even painful to members of the team who are averse to conflict. Tolerance of each team member and their differences needs to be emphasized. Without tolerance and patience the team will fail. This phase can become destructive to the team and will lower motivation if allowed to get out of control. Supervisors of the team during this phase may be more accessible but tend to still need to be directive in their guidance of decision-making and professional behavior. Join channel Profit
midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:33:00 - [48] Originally by: Sicil Fioet from that convo i carried that these meetings aren't going to work well with the current chaiman being jade ... QFE from that log its seems like he/she is a condisending arogant **** :D (yes i know i spelled it wrong bite me) -----------------------------------------------
Johnathan Roark Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:35:00 - [49] Originally by: Xparky USE VOICE !!! It wont help, have you ever been in a voice chat meeting with Jade? Its about the same as him having op. POS-Tracker 2.1.0 Hosting
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 07:36:00 - [50] Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 09/06/2008 05:56:49 A lot of the criticism that was established prior to the CSM was indeed justified during this meeting. The way Jade kept ignoring members of the council who didn't agree with him and muted Inanna because of stupid reasons(Which he is YET to justify btw) was just pathetic. I understand that you guys aren't happy. But I'm NOT happy either. But I hope you understand that these issues are caused by certain individuals either. Some of us DID try to recover that cluster****. But we were merely ignored by the chairman. EDIT: Spelling Normally I rail against all LVV posts, but this one is good. If you weren't such a carebear I might have voted for ya. http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:19:00 - [51] sounds like par of the course for jade atleast someone is calling him out on his ****** **.
Batwigg	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:26:00 - [52] Wait, people are surprised that Jade Constantine is a giant, bleeding female reproductive organ?
Araviel Epic.	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:55:00 - [53] yes they need to get a forum,, text chat isnt gonna work :\ ----------------
Quelque Chose New Eden Roller Disco Supply	Posted - 2008.06.09 08:58:00 - [54] So did they just not adopt a parliamentary procedure at all? ___________________________________________
Gojyu Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:04:00 - [55] Originally by: Quelque Chose So did they just not adopt a parliamentary procedure at all? I'm pretty sure they did, trying to sort through the chatlogs, I'm pretty sure they basically have a parliment where the chair is a 12 year old kid who can stop anyone who disagrees with him from talking Oh well, we all knew that the csm were never actually going to be able to change anything, at least now we get a few laughs out of the whole debacle
Plave Okice Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:06:00 - [56] Self important tedious c**ts Did any of you really expect anything else? Would you like to know more?
JS LiamElms Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:21:00 - [57] they should simply vote an arbitrating member. Democracy rules even if members are not keen on the arbitrator, the group as a whole voted for that one person. or if you want to get pragmatic, you could always vote 3 arbitrators that vote to move on or continue a pointless discussion. second, this really does sound like they simply need time to adjust and adapt to each other. but have a single strong headed person chairing the meetings will only disrupt enough for everyone else to walk out. The chair's role should really be that of a listener to ideas and interpret those into a group understanding, by pushing his or her own ideas is never going to work if people do not trust the chair. Chair should be voted in, by other members not take senior role due to popularity contest. I have not read through all the chat logs or the CCP guidelines for running the meetings (i hope they have them!) But i am sure the mature members of the council can set these simple situations up. Contemplating with a perpetuate kid trying to push he/her ideas will make the whole process a shambles and never move on from this 'stage'. BUT REMEMBER.... YOUÆRE MEANT TO BE A VOICE FOR THE PLAYERS!!! YOUR OPINIONS SHOULD NOT BE PUSHED IF IT IS NOT REPRESENTED BY THE EVE POPULATION!
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:26:00 - [58] Why can't I just read the PDF in Tahoma or Arial? Copied it and moved it to notepad. :\| www.siigarikitawa.com
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:33:00 - [59] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Why can't I just read the PDF in Tahoma or Arial? This frankly. I changed the font to Arial and it went from 67 pages to 42 ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Haakon Jarl direkte	Posted - 2008.06.09 09:40:00 - [60] lol what did you expect? Just read these forums and all the kneejerk thread and replies and you will see that Jade constatine is a great ambassador for this community. Even WOW has a more mature community than EVE these days. Sad thing is, people like Hardin are trying to do a good job gets overshadowed by ******s such as seen in that chatlog. In it for the state**

Kurt Gergard Federal European Industry Science and Research	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 - [61] I am realy disapointed with the CSM. The meaning of "mayority" discussion was just ********. To have no doubts i ran across several constitutions and other legislation acts and it is as follows: "mayority" - more yes than no, "absolut mayority" 50% + 1 of pressent voiting yes, and a special order of voting requiering more than 50% but that is not important. The chat based discussion is highly inefective that is obvious. Also I don't realy see any diffrent points of view because most of the topics are concluded that they will discuss it with CCP insted of putting forward sertain solutions. And I agree with the person that said that the forum way is much more efficent :D "No plan has ever survived the contact with the enemy" von Moltke
siggi 64 Macabre Votum Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:03:00 - [62] I am just wondering if Jade is gonna adress his actions. I mean as mentioned previously, the CSM is meant to put forward EVE's community thoughts and feeling, and not there own... On a side note, who the hell voted for jade anyway?!?!? I mean seriously ....
Elliot Reid Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:18:00 - [63] I'd much rather CCP spend the rl cash that will be wasted on this CSM on monthly **up's for themselves. RL cash that we pay thinking it might actually go towards making EVE a better game. Fat ***** chance with the cash wasted here. _______________________________________
Sicil Fioet	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:22:00 - [64] is there an option for like a non-confidence vote? or is CSM stuck with candidates it has?
fuze InfoMorph Services Ltd	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:23:00 - [65] If we compare CSM with the playerbase I'd wonder who'd we call more immature and childish. And lets not forget whining, spoiled and obnoxious.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:28:00 - [66] Hello chaps, A few comments: 1) I would just like to point out one thing about the 'chat log' posted here. The chat log came from a member of the Committee who had channel rights, which is why it contains a note about Inanna being muted by Jade. Unfortunately, the other members of the Committee, who do not have channel rights, did not see that notification and therefore had no idea that Jade had gagged Inanna and Jade didn't inform us. I only became aware that Inanna had been gagged when she mentioned it to me in a separate convo. 2) I was not happy with how the meeting went yesterday particularly Jade's 'editorialising', his muting of Inanna and then raising two issues we had already discussed AFTER we had completed the official agenda and have made some suggestions to the other CSM members about how this should be handled in future. However all that said the CSM Committee DID has passed a large number of issues on to our Iceland discussions with CCP - mostly unanimously agreed. If we end up getting CCP to do something about even 50% of these then in my view CSM will have done its job making EVE better for everyone! Yes there is bickering but it is to some extent the nature of the beast. 3) A lot of the responsibility for CSM wasting time in 'discussions' over 'majorities/alternates' etc is down to CCP who have only provided the initial CSM with very vague operating principles. As a result this first CSM in particular will be more painful as we work these teething 'issues' out. It is my hope that as the CSM process develops that less time is spent upon CSM procedure and more time on issues that impact the game positively but have to say that at least initially we will see these debates as a CSM 'constitution' is developed. Cheers ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
QwaarJet hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:28:00 - [67] Edited by: QwaarJet on 09/06/2008 10:32:08 It's the community's fault for voting in people they've heard of, rather than looking for the best candidate. While Jade, Ankhesentapemkah and the like get in, really good candidates without forum reputations don't have a chance.
Fanjita	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:30:00 - [68] cant say im surprised or bothered after all they only applied to the csm for the free holidays to iceland.
Simokon	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:31:00 - [69] I must say I was rather amused and disturbed by that chat log.
LetsDoThis	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:35:00 - [70] Originally by: Hardin Hello chaps, A few comments: 1) I would just like to point out one thing about the 'chat log' posted here. The chat log came from a member of the Committee who had channel rights, which is why it contains a note about Inanna being muted by Jade. Unfortunately, the other members of the Committee, who do not have channel rights, did not see that notification and therefore had no idea that Jade had gagged Inanna and Jade didn't inform us. I only became aware that Inanna had been gagged when she mentioned it to me in a separate convo. 2) I was not happy with how the meeting went yesterday particularly Jade's 'editorialising', his muting of Inanna and then raising two issues we had already discussed AFTER we had completed the official agenda and have made some suggestions to the other CSM members about how this should be handled in future. However all that said the CSM Committee DID has passed a large number of issues on to our Iceland discussions with CCP - mostly unanimously agreed. If we end up getting CCP to do something about even 50% of these then in my view CSM will have done its job making EVE better for everyone! Yes there is bickering but it is to some extent the nature of the beast. 3) A lot of the responsibility for CSM wasting time in 'discussions' over 'majorities/alternates' etc is down to CCP who have only provided the initial CSM with very vague operating principles. As a result this first CSM in particular will be more painful as we work these teething 'issues' out. It is my hope that as the CSM process develops that less time is spent upon CSM procedure and more time on issues that impact the game positively but have to say that at least initially we will see these debates as a CSM 'constitution' is developed. Cheers Use. A. Forum. They are superior in every way. They, 1) separate issues into threads 2) can quote so you know wtf people are replying to 3) can't be interrupted 4) have infinitely superior time constraints And in general they make everything easier for everyone. Hardin, so you were a counselor irl. Well, this isn't gonna work in a chat room. A chat room is the most unorganized cluster**** of a discussion meeting you could ever hope for. Whether it be to show off or make use of your irl experience, or just to roleplay that you're in a courtroom doesn't matter. You're better off using a forum.

Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:37:00 - [71] Edited by: Furb Killer on 09/06/2008 10:40:31 How about you start next meeting with deciding how other CSM meetings are going to work? Like dont mute others, even if there is a good reason to mute them. Next, this was first time, give them some time to get used to these kind of meetings. Allthough i dont agree with jade muting arround, i can understand that you get touchy after chatting that long. And finally, they indeed look like a good representation of the eve user base. Edit: I got second thoughts, jade shouldnt mute less, but should mute more often. Well maybe not really mute them, but it is a chat based meeting now where everyone talks at the same time. No **** it becomes chaotic and you want to mute some. Ever tried an msn conversation with 10 people? One should be talking at a time. And if you are going to do that via text chat, the meeting will take 12 hours next time. Solution: Use forum (you cant post in each others posts, so it stays clear) and once a week (or something like that) you talk directly with each other using voice chat.
Siigari Kitawa The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:40:00 - [72] Fourm (fo+rum) 1. the marketplace or public square of an ancient Roman city, the center of judicial and business affairs and a place of assembly for the people. 2. a court or tribunal: the forum of public opinion. 3. an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. I think people often forget about what the word "forum" actually means. A forum is a discussion place. A chatroom is where people get together to chatter away about whatever. Organized discussions can take place in a forum, where there is less organization in a chatroom, which can lead to chaos. I agree here that a forum would be more appropriate, but it is sort of amusing to watch how they problem solve. Sadly, I have a feeling that after reading the entire thing, some of them are in over their heads (which... sucks.) And, I did not say all, I said some. www.siigarikitawa.com
Fergus Nuada Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:41:00 - [73] I was neutral and open minded about the CSM, but after reading the chat log, first impressions were initially , then , then finally I hope things improve- I am sure some of the CSMs do also, they have donated a lot of their time to this.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:41:00 - [74] Originally by: Fanjita cant say im surprised or bothered after all they only applied to the csm for the free holidays to iceland. I have so far spent at least 8 hrs of my EVE playing time in 'CSM Meetings' which I am sure as you can see from the chatlog is not necessarily the most 'fun' time to be had in EVE On top of this there is the huge amount of time I have spent reading through the Assembly Forum issues (go take a look at the amount of threads in there) and deciding on the merits/demerits to each. Of course I am not complaining about that - heck I enjoy the political stuff - but to state that we only did it for a free trip to Iceland is a bit ridiculous when from what I can tell most of the CSM candidates can well afford to pay for their own holidays Although I am not sure any of us would want to pay for a holiday which will involve us being locked up in a Committee Room with 8 other egotists for 4 days (especially as it means I actually use some of my 'proper' holiday allocation which could have been better spent on a beach somewhere Personally I stood because I am passionate about this game and do want to see it improved and believe that the CSM does have the potential to promote positive change to CCP. Of course we will have to wait and see how it turns out ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
JS LiamElms Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:47:00 - [75] Edited by: JS LiamElms on 09/06/2008 10:52:56 If the majority of CSM members have issues with the current chairman you should probably post a petition to CCP of a vote of no confidence and request an anonymous election within the group for an figure head chairman (committee arbitrator) be auctioned. you will probably want to get over 70% of your present members to agree before posting any vote of no confidence to highlight its not just one or two individuals that are not happy with current situation otherwise this op is just a lot of hot air, and its main point to post is to derail the good job the csm is/or could be doing. edit: nothing more pointless and rather dimwitted is to post meanings of words. Well done for your great understanding, but please stop as you might be suprised people know said meaning. It only serves to show your ability to be willing to belittle people in trying to prove a point. "i am a noob, so when i pop you... feel the shame!!"
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:47:00 - [76] I think the CSM needs to recruit a Speaker to handle this. Let points of order be left to someone who isn't trying to put a case at the same time. ---- Infiniband can do more than just prevent lag
Bael Thazor	Posted - 2008.06.09 10:49:00 - [77] While I think everyone, CSM included, would agree that the discussion left a lot to be desired, I think it's a bit of a misnomer to claim that any 'kicking' has taken place in this instance. As evidenced by the chat log, for those who don't have the patience to read it all, Jade Constantine did indeed block Inanna Zule, in fact on three separate occasions: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:36:58 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 22:06:57, Reason: "till the vote". [ 2008.06.08 21:40:29 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:10:28. [ 2008.06.08 21:44:06 ]EVE System >Inanna Zuni was muted by Jade Constantine., Effective until 2008.06.08 21:14:05. However, there is no record in the chatlog of Inanna being kicked from the channel. We thus have two explanations for why Inanna left the channel at some point between 21:36 and 21:47: that Jade, or another player with moderator priveleges, removed them (which is the theory everyone seems to be assuming) or that Inanna, by design or accident, left the channel on their own. There is evidence in the logs to suggest that the former is doubtful, other than Jade's own protestations of innocence: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:47:27 ]Dierdra Vaal >she isnt on the blocked list [ 2008.06.08 21:47:44 ]Dierdra Vaal >not on the muted list either [ 2008.06.08 21:49:10 ]Dierdra Vaal >inanna, I didnt see you on the blocked list tbh [ 2008.06.08 22:01:08 ]Ankhesentapemkah >Err the chat clearly said in red letters that jade muted Inanna, but nothing indicated Inanna was kicked or blocked or anything like that. Getting over the indignation of some of the CSM representatives at Jade's actions for the moment, I think we're best served by following the advice of Bane: Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:54:47 ]Bane Glorious >we could ask CCP if she was kicked or blocked [ 2008.06.08 21:54:52 ]Bane Glorious >they have the ability to check So rather than stirring up any more accusations, it seems appropriate to let the devs look into the chat logs and see if any discretion on the part of Jade has taken place. While I'm not intimate with CSM procedure (as, apparently, no one is) if the chairman did indeed kick Inanna from the channel, some sort of review should place to ensure that such powers cannot be abused in the future. On the other hand, if Inanna left the channel through other means, and was merely muted so the vote could take place, the issue seems less severe. The concept of a chairman being able to terminate unwanted discussion at a whim runs counter to the principle of a democratically elected body, and I implore the CSM to remove moderator privileges from all members of the quorum to ensure an incident such as this is not repeated. Having said all that, the meeting seemed to run quite smoothly save for the debate over the role of abstaining. Issues that were brought up on these forums were discussed, the merit of some suggestions was carefully reviewed, and the entire process was completely transparent to the regular observer. The CSM should see these early disagreements and disputes as a learning experience, and move on. A great deal of player interest is vested within them.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:06:00 - [78] Inanna wasn't kicked - She was muted. Some bug did kick her out of the channel though when Jade tried to unmute her! ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Schultze 0rigins EVESpace	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:29:00 - [79] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker This'll be real funny when they meet in person. I wanna see the video of the guys in their 30s yelling across the table at the 14-year-olds, especially the little girly boy who has the gavel. Oh My GOD that painted an Epic picture in my head, framed in pure Gold. You made my day Joe Starbreaker.
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:31:00 - [80] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 09/06/2008 11:31:14 Anyone taking bets on who gets muted next? My money is on lvv with darius as a close second.

Wendat Huron Stellar Solutions	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:33:00 - [81] What was the actual reason for muting? These forums are FUBAR, upgrade this decade!
Gideon Kross PROGENITOR CORPORATION Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:33:00 - [82] Edited by: Gideon Kross on 09/06/2008 11:33:45 ::shakes head solemnly:: From review of all the current logs posted, It appears that our newly elected Body Politic is not quite up to scratch on the points of Parliamentary Procedure. Things appear to be Rushed before all results are in. Haste seems to be this (dis)organisation's pitfall... Not to mention Unattentiveness to the propsals put on the table for consideration, and therefore more time wasted on re-review of the matter that was clearly stated mere moments before. It's a bloody Chat Channel... Missed Something? ... Scroll Up. CSM: You Must Exsercise PATIENCE, RESTRAINT, and above all PROFESIONALISM. I would advise that this esteemed group, As A Whole Refamiliarise themselves with Simple Parliamentary Procedure, and Conduct Meetings Accordingly... Reguardless of how long it may take. ... Stay On Task Until The Task Is Completed. Point Of Order Votes in Abstentia only count on the Recorded Vote, wherein the Majority (Yea, or Nae) Is Counted for Official Result (simple majority rule), or in the case of the proposed (full majority) Yea, or Nae Votes numbering 5 or more would be required for a proposal to be carried... Votes in Abstentia Do Not Count as Nae Votes, and are to be recorded as Abstentia Votes (neither yea, or nae; as the issue or proposal is unclear and warrants further investigation) For The Official Record. ... What I've seen thus far, does not please me in the least. Quote: I was contemplating the immortal words of Socrates; Who said '... I Drank What?!'
Sani Ka THE INTERNET.	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:38:00 - [83] rofl who woulda thought of the choices jade would be the one stirring up ****.
HarderThisTime	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:39:00 - [84] They were like a deer in headlights when it came to exploration in a large hull'd vessel. WTF is their problem? I can do every level 4 mission in a raven but god forbid I can do exploration without having to travel a million F'ing jumps to pick up my combat vessel and come back to finish the site. These people are GD biased idiots. If you've never done it as a profession then stfu and let the people that have make the vote.
Haakelen United Forces	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:43:00 - [85] This is what you get for voting for Jade tbh.
Swamp Ziro GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 11:46:00 - [86] laffing like a mother ******
Fenir Vespin Noob Mercs	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:13:00 - [87] At first I was sad that the person I voted for didn't make it, after reading this I'm a bit mad.
Kale Kold Vicious Little Killers	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:18:00 - [88] OMG! I can't believe the transcript of this meeting! Are they all really arguing over how to hold meetings and cast votes? This reads of stupid petty squabblings of people who perceive themselves to be more important than they really are! My god! Is this the best that was taken from the EVE community? For crying out loud sack these people!!!
Joshua Foiritain Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:31:00 - [89] lol @ csm. -----
Shaikar PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:38:00 - [90] Edited by: Shaikar on 09/06/2008 12:39:10 Originally by: Joshua Foiritain lol @ csm. Vote alteration, petty bureaucracy, abuse of power, hours of talking whilst saying nothing. "Not fit for purpose" did sort of spring to mind...

Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:41:00 - [91] Darius is a champ :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Dotard Suddenly Samurai	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:44:00 - [92] LOL? --------------- Nerf You! Buff Me!
cal nereus Perkone	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:53:00 - [93] Originally by: Hardin Hello chaps, A few comments: 1) I would just like to point out one thing about the 'chat log' posted here. The chat log came from a member of the Committee who had channel rights, which is why it contains a note about Inanna being muted by Jade. Unfortunately, the other members of the Committee, who do not have channel rights, did not see that notification and therefore had no idea that Jade had gagged Inanna and Jade didn't inform us. I only became aware that Inanna had been gagged when she mentioned it to me in a separate convo. 2) I was not happy with how the meeting went yesterday particularly Jade's 'editorialising', his muting of Inanna and then raising two issues we had already discussed AFTER we had completed the official agenda and have made some suggestions to the other CSM members about how this should be handled in future. However all that said the CSM Committee DID has passed a large number of issues on to our Iceland discussions with CCP - mostly unanimously agreed. If we end up getting CCP to do something about even 50% of these then in my view CSM will have done its job making EVE better for everyone! Yes there is bickering but it is to some extent the nature of the beast. 3) A lot of the responsibility for CSM wasting time in 'discussions' over 'majorities/alternates' etc is down to CCP who have only provided the initial CSM with very vague operating principles. As a result this first CSM in particular will be more painful as we work these teething 'issues' out. It is my hope that as the CSM process develops that less time is spent upon CSM procedure and more time on issues that impact the game positively but have to say that at least initially we will see these debates as a CSM 'constitution' is developed. Cheers Thank you, Hardin. To be fair, I think your conduct in the entire chat log is commendable. Hopefully that conduct is contagious, and the first Iceland trip turns out well. --- Earning Isk Basic Skills
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:05:00 - [94] Jade Constant-fail ---
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:09:00 - [95] What a massive pile of ****. Most of the CSM got less votes than the number of people who abstained. And so far all they've done is recreate the tossbank that is Eve-o forums in miniature. Great going. 50% price increase for Eve-Online. New CSM. Coincidence? --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
Victor Valka Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:13:00 - [96] I expect this thread to be at 10 pages when I get home in two hours. Get to it! Chop-chop! Originally by: Roxanna Kell You are insane.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:18:00 - [97] Quote: [ 2008.06.08 21:53:24 ]Ankhesentapemkah >can we officially close this meeting please as I don't want to record all this unprofessionalism in the minutes. This is by far the most compelling statement made in that entire log. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Saladin Eternity INC. Project Alice.	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:19:00 - [98] Originally by: Vaal Erit Abstain votes do not count towards the majority. You should not be allowed to have your physical presence counted toward the constitution of a quorum and at the same time be allowed to deny in effect, your official presence by a failure to vote. Thats quite debatable and is in fact for the council to decide for themselves. I have seen and studied organizations that use both ways of thinking. Some require 50%+1 of the delegates to say yes (i.e. abstentions count as a no) and some require 50%+1 of the votes cast (i.e. abstentions don't count either way).
Andrian Caldar	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:23:00 - [99] /me facepalms! Well - one thing is for certain. If CCP ever feared that the CSM would constitute a unified front from the player base keeping them on their toes and making sure they stuck to their promises, then they need not worry at all now. How pathetic was that.......!? In its very first "meeting' the CSM has managed to erode its authority completely. Will anyone bother to try to leverage the CSM from now on, or will it simply be reduced to being a channel for major alliances to try to manipulate the development of EVE for their own interests. Whichever it is - CSM as a concept has failed....
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:27:00 - [100] Originally by: Victor Valka I expect this thread to be at 10 pages when I get home in two hours. Get to it! Chop-chop! Whereas I expect some new forum rule that didn't exist before this thread was created to be in effect by time you get home. Especially since I have "scented" it already. --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.

Greme Slacker Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:38:00 - [101] Originally by: Winterblink Darius is a champ :) This. Also thank you for this log. It brightened up my day with bowelfuls of laughter. And my bowels always needed a good laugh. Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:40:00 - [102] Edited by: Slanty McGarglefist on 09/06/2008 13:40:41 Hop on board to the LOL train, tickets are free. What a shame, the power-hungry individual holds rule. We're all screwed. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Father Dibbles Self Aggrandisement Society	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:55:00 - [103] Disappointing to the point of despair. May god save me, if it is right that he should do so...
Face Palmer Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:56:00 - [104] I've been stuck in what seemed like largely unproductive meetings all day and then I come out and read this. All I can say is, thank you CSM
Slanty McGarglefist	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:59:00 - [105] Originally by: Face Palmer I've been stuck in what seemed like largely unproductive meetings all day and then I come out and read this. All I can say is, thank you CSM For some reason, this character's name is quite appropriate. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Wrangler No Doh!
Alz Shado Ever Flow	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:04:00 - [106] Motion to nominate the official background music for reading of the CSM Logs. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad) "Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand
Valkazm Eve Defence Force Insurgency	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:20:00 - [107] lol thanks for this its like reading jita local ....................................... Quote: CCP Navigator mail at [email protected] for isk
Phrast	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:21:00 - [108] Damn, thats one cluster****.
Adaris	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:23:00 - [109] This IS how democracy works guys. People aren't muted in Nth Korea, their just shot and as a result things work just fine there. Make Love Not Warcraft. ******* I speak on behalf of every corporation.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:31:00 - [110] Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)

Slash Harnet Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:33:00 - [111] This is crazy. Good ol' CSM members, if you're reading this, you may want to look at getting a neutral NON-VOTING parliamentarian to run your meetings. The kind of bias in those logs is inexcusable for someone running that kind of meeting. signature removed ... Pirlouit I finally got my sig nerfed once, I feel like a forum warrior!
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:34:00 - [112] Originally by: Tarminic Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I hope like hell that it's filmed. :) warp drive active \| nature vraie
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:35:00 - [113] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Tarminic Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I hope like hell that it's filmed. :) next pod cast needs dramatic readings of these logs WITH SEXY RESULTS ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:36:00 - [114] Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Tarminic Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I hope like hell that it's filmed. :) next pod cast needs dramatic readings of these logs WITH SEXY RESULTS ABSOLUTELY ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8)
Verite Rendition F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:38:00 - [115] And here I voted for Goum in hopes he'd ruin the CSM. I could have saved myself a lot of trouble and voted for Jade had I known he was so capable of destroying the CSM in such a short period of time. At any rate, after reading that epic failure of a meeting, I do hope CCP steps in and does something to correct the situation. Clearly the CSM isn't working under the current ruleset. PS I'll bet 5mil ISK that Jade either gets arrested or thrown out of CCP by security while the CSM is on their trip ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
Mortok Tristan	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:39:00 - [116] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Tarminic Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I hope like hell that it's filmed. :) Reminds me of the movie, "12 angry men" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0050083/
Molock Saronen	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:41:00 - [117] Originally by: Tarminic Put nine elected, power-sharing politicians in an internet chat channel without even emoticons to help convey emotion and non-verbal queues and this is bound to happen. I'm not terribly surprised, to be honest, though I am amused. Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I can just imagine it.. CCP Newsflash... *Riot erupts after chairman tries to forcebly use ducktape* Are we sure Jade isn't a 'closet' Minmatar??
Aeontiouz	Posted - 2008.06.09 14:53:00 - [118] Thanks for giving me a laugh, its like goonswarm, childrens in the council.
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:00:00 - [119] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain lol @ csm. This tbh. I'm getting more and more happy by the day that I decided to pull out of the running for what is quickly becoming a circus and a farce. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Rakivic Galactic Express Frontier Trade League	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:05:00 - [120] I hate to say I told you you so but..... I guess the the whole CSM thing goes down as just one more of the epic failures of eve Maybe once they meat in person with reps from CCP thows cool (no pun intended) non violent Icelanders can defuse the situation with on the CSM board Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans ----------------------------------------------- [Image Removed] CCP did not like my signature so I had to replace it with this one

Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:08:00 - [121] Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Cassandra Valieries	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:10:00 - [122] And here I was thinking I was bad at running meetings, guess I'm not that bad after all... Jade, you need to step down as chairman, you are very obviously not fit for the position. Do it yourself and you might save some dignity...
Fergus Nuada Viziam	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:11:00 - [123] Originally by: Tarminic ...Let's see if the CSM can do better once they meet in person. I bet they will- people tend to behave more respectfully when face to face as opposed to via a keyboard.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:11:00 - [124] Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Actually the largest national contingents are Dutch (3) and English (3). We also have one Dane and just two Americans ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:17:00 - [125] Originally by: Hardin Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' With all due respect to yourself and to the others who are actually taking this seriously, it's deplorable how much time is wasted in these meetings for petty and ridiculous stuff. If you guys need clarifications on what you should be doing and how you should be doing it with regard to the constitutions you should talk to ccp directly and stop wasting time with this inconsequential excrement that has happened for the last three meetings. You should not be voting on or discussing how the CSM should be run, you should be discussing and voting on issues that the community has brought to your attention. Your current chairman is more interested in petty bureaucratic issues which at the end of it all have no bearing whatsoever with what you guys were elected to do. Stop bringing up these issues with the CSM during the meetings and if you must talk about them do it on your own time on the forums or in private and then bring them to ccp yourselves. You are not serving the community with this. You should be talking about internet spaceships so for the love of all that is holy, please do it.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:26:00 - [126] Originally by: Hardin Putting my head above the parapet again I would like to point out that in last week's meeting (and most of this week's meeting) a lot of useful business was done. A lot of issues - are going to be brought forward to Iceland - most of them fairly unanimously supported. Many of these changes are small tweaks which incrementally and collectively should make EVE a better game for us all - even if CCP only acts on 50% of them. Yes, the meeting last night did become ridiculous at points - which obviously isn't great - but there is still the potential for a lot of good to come out of CSM so please don't judge it on the basis of these chatlogs but on the results that are delivered. If nothing changes - that will be the point we can slam the CSM - until then just enjoy the 'entertainment' I totally agree - keep your eyes on the prize. I do think a voice chat might be preferable though, one would hope that would cut down on the distracting parenthetical asides.
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:29:00 - [127] @halca, if you havent decided how exactly the voting is done it is pretty useless to vote. So it is normal to first decide about such things
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:32:00 - [128] Originally by: Furb Killer @halca, if you havent decided how exactly the voting is done it is pretty useless to vote. So it is normal to first decide about such things This is a problem for ccp to clarify, not for them to decide arbitrarily in a meeting that is being misused for bureacratic silliness. They are there to represent us, not to play at politics.
Furb Killer USC Militia	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:37:00 - [129] The problem wasnt that, the problem was that jade wasnt exactly ideal, but also that many other members had serious issues about knowing when to shut up. 8 people trying to speak at same time on eve in game chat just does not work.
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:40:00 - [130] Originally by: Furb Killer The problem wasnt that, the problem was that jade wasnt exactly ideal, but also that many other members had serious issues about knowing when to shut up. 8 people trying to speak at same time on eve in game chat just does not work. My problem is that every single argument to date has been about some petty bureucratic crap that has no bearing on any of the actual issues being raised. Ironically when they discuss real issues they get voted on and resolved quickly. Instead we're forced to suffer through pages of chatlogs about stuff nobody really cares about. If they are really struggling this much at understanding what they should be doing and how it should be done then maybe it's time for them to go talk to ccp for clarifications instead of wasting so much time on this piffle.

Scagga Laebetrovo Delictum 23216 San Matari.	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:41:00 - [131] Edited by: Scagga Laebetrovo on 09/06/2008 15:41:39 Well, I read the CSM logs and would agree, they were fiasco-tastic. So, I thought a bit, and suggested this solution: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792897 Have a read. San Matari Official forums
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:42:00 - [132] Well the meeting was 75% fiasco, 25% useful. But ultimately good issues got onto the agenda including the council-voted CSM chair. I'll be pushing that one in Iceland and hopefully it gets added to the constitution. If it does I'll be stepping down from chair and seeing what the re-vote brings. The council will be able to vote for its own chair and I'll probably get to sit back and sip fine wine. But at least I'll have cat-herded some decent issues onto the agenda and made a progressive change to the constitution in the inaugural CSM. Anything else is pure froth at this point. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:42:00 - [133] Unfortunately Halca CCP did not give us specifics on how this would work. We are therefore having to develop a 'constitution' as we go along. Therefore this first CSM was always going to be a bit 'messy' until basic procedures are put in place. In theory subsequent CSM's will then have a 'structure' to work from and can avoid some of the more pointless 'procedural' debates. ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Herschel Yamamoto Bloodmoney Incorporated	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:44:00 - [134] Originally by: Quelque Chose So did they just not adopt a parliamentary procedure at all? Pretty much, yeah. I find this rather surprising, actually - CCP can quote a dozen philosophers in their founding document for this group, but they can't toss in a one-liner about using XYZ's Rules of Order. Has nobody there ever been in on a meeting? ------------------ Fix the forums!
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:45:00 - [135] Originally by: Hardin Unfortunately Halca CCP did not give us specifics on how this would work. We are therefore having to develop a 'constitution' as we go along. Therefore this first CSM was always going to be a bit 'messy' until basic procedures are put in place. In theory subsequent CSM's will then have a 'structure' to work from and can avoid some of the more pointless 'procedural' debates. Talk to CCP about it please, if this is the case then you are doomed to continued failure. You guys know you are wasting time with this, so do something about it. I seriously doubt CCP will refuse to help on this issue but if they do I'm sure you guys could raise some hell if it was brought to light. So far these meetings have been deplorable and they seem to be getting worse.
Fifth Horseman	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:52:00 - [136] I cannot believe we're expected to pay for you all to have a free holiday to Iceland. It makes me sick that we're expected to pay T20's wages, but this as well, it's utterly pukeworthy, and hiding it some irrelevant CSM forum won't make it go away either. --- Did I upset the wrong alliance with this post? Please don't ban me when it's your shift to control the Mitnal account.
Hardin Praetoria Technologies	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:53:00 - [137] Halca, I have to disagree with you. There have been plenty of 'good results' out of the first few meetings in the shape of issues being brought forward to Iceland - the majority pretty unanimously. Yes the chatlogs are messy - and plain childish at points - but please look at the bigger picture. If CSM can actually deliver CCP action on even 50% of the items we already have on the agenda I would consider the process to have been successful. Of course that still needs to happen but hopefully once we move to the face to face part people will be more reasonable (well I hope so anyway) ----- Alliance Creation/Corp Expansion Services Advert
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.09 15:55:00 - [138] Do CSM members have staff working for them? Or will Vista have to re-write that document on his own? -------------------
Halca Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:04:00 - [139] Originally by: Hardin Halca, I have to disagree with you. There have been plenty of 'good results' out of the first few meetings in the shape of issues being brought forward to Iceland - the majority pretty unanimously. Yes the chatlogs are messy - and plain childish at points - but please look at the bigger picture. If CSM can actually deliver CCP action on even 50% of the items we already have on the agenda I would consider the process to have been successful. Of course that still needs to happen but hopefully once we move to the face to face part people will be more reasonable (well I hope so anyway) I didn't mean to say that the CSM have done nothing Hardin, merely that you could achieve substantially more without this level of bureacracy for the sake of bureaucracy. Talk to CCP about the constitution and formalise the rules, get them to clarify it and you will have more time to deal with the issues instead of wasting your time on something they might not be happy with anyway and in my opinion is beyond your remit in the first place.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:13:00 - [140] Originally by: Jacque Custeau Do CSM members have staff working for them? Or will Vista have to re-write that document on his own? I am sure he could ask for help, but otherwise he has to re-write it on his own. And all the CSMs have to do their "write up" on their own. Then again, that "write up" seems to be "linking to forum threads"

Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:14:00 - [141] Originally by: Halca I didn't mean to say that the CSM have done nothing Hardin, merely that you could achieve substantially more without this level of bureacracy for the sake of bureaucracy. Talk to CCP about the constitution and formalise the rules, get them to clarify it and you will have more time to deal with the issues instead of wasting your time on something they might not be happy with anyway and in my opinion is beyond your remit in the first place. I have to agree that this has been a sore point with me the entire time. CCP should have defined these things. Yesterday's meeting was the first time I can recall the concept of a "Constitution" being thrown around and I can't say I'm for the idea at all. Essentially I don't see a reason we couldn't all just sit down and discuss and vote on the issues without the need for all the stupid posturing and power grabbing. Instead of a group of adults sitting in a room treating each other as thus we're left with petty squabbling over stupid e-powers that were never defined or even essentially necessary. I'd have assumed at some point CCP would step in and end the idiocy but perhaps they see some merit in the experiment. Essentially everyone has their own ideas about what CSM is and what their roles and responsibilities are. This is now most obvious in the chairmanship role. I see it (and the document seems to define it) as someone who schedules and facilitates the meetings and codifies the agenda. Jade appears to view it as the person "in charge" of the CSM, with signing, discussion moderating and vote defining authority. An executive if you will. I don't think anyone expected to have a "boss" in this and I don't think anyone signed on for that. I also don't think CCP intended such, as there's no way to make that work.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:25:00 - [142] Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. What that actually means is the issue that causes such friction. Last night we got into a ridiculous series of problems because NOBODY amongst the CSM committee (thats all nine members) had the wit (myself included) to quote the piece from the founding document that specified simple majority voting was the default rule. Instead we had had a 5/4 in the committee on the issue and I tried to get clarification with a vote - vote was resolved, some people felt they weren't bound by the vote. Eventually Husko pointed out the quote from the founding documentation and we had a re-vote that signified our (re)adoption of the simple majority voting system. Now I lost patience with a CSM member continually interrupting these votes with off-topic comments, critiques of spelling and grammar, and general disparagement on the real life knowledge of people debating with them. Question is - what do you do as Chair of a committee in a text-based chat when somebody WILL NOT, follow the procedures of discussion and voting and is continually interrupting? Face to face its easy, you look them in the eye and ask them to behave and restate the principle that you raise your hand to be recognized. In a text chat in a badly overrunning meeting where we have the time pressure of knowing that anything we don't consider will NOT be on the formal Iceland agenda and you have a recipe of bad-tempered exchanges and frustration for all concerned. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Nastasia Muse deii feram	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:35:00 - [143] It's not that I'm surprised that Jade has managed to alienate so many people with pompous, self-serving and narcissistic behaviour that would shame a spoilt 12-year-old. I'm merely surprised that it has taken so long. Three weeks for him to be revealed in his egotistical glory is far longer than I expected. Who would have thought that somebody banned by CCP for disruptive behaviour on the forums would turn out to be a disastrous, self-centred and comedic failure as a chair?
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:35:00 - [144] Originally by: Jade Constantine Now I lost patience with a CSM member continually interrupting these votes with off-topic comments, critiques of spelling and grammar, and general disparagement on the real life knowledge of people debating with them. Question is - what do you do as Chair of a committee in a text-based chat when somebody WILL NOT, follow the procedures of discussion and voting and is continually interrupting? Face to face its easy, you look them in the eye and ask them to behave and restate the principle that you raise your hand to be recognized. In a text chat in a badly overrunning meeting where we have the time pressure of knowing that anything we don't consider will NOT be on the formal Iceland agenda and you have a recipe of bad-tempered exchanges and frustration for all concerned. Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? Face to face you won't have a mute button. If you think you're going to railroad your agenda there as well I can assure you, you will find it significantly less easy.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:38:00 - [145] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker They get free trips to Iceland. I wish! Yes, we get to spend three days at the offices of CCP and spend another day flying there and flying home again. In that trip are three weekdays - usually working days for most people - as well as a weekend. Thus "free" is misleading. There are three days to be taken as holiday from work (aka losing three days holiday when we normally would have planned to take it) and there will be numerous small expenses related to our trip which won't be recoverable (I am told that beer / alcohol generally is way more expensive in Iceland, for a start!). Overall, we are going there to work and will each incur unavoidable / unrecoverable expenses; this isn't a playtime at fanfest ... IZ ps. Re the thread title: "Members" didn't kick and mute each other ... not plural ... singular. My principles
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:38:00 - [146] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? The logs show otherwise. Read them. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:41:00 - [147] Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/06/2008 16:41:57 Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Again you attempt to rewrite history when the logs clearly show otherwise. Nobody continuously interrupted votes... How delusional are you that you're making this statement not 7 posts after the actual conversation is quoted? The logs show otherwise. Read them. Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.)
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:46:00 - [148] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.) CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:54:00 - [149] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 16:55:15 Originally by: Slash Harnet Good ol' CSM members, if you're reading this, you may want to look at getting a neutral NON-VOTING parliamentarian to run your meetings. The kind of bias in those logs is inexcusable for someone running that kind of meeting. That a Chair can be neutral and unbiased during a meeting, and assist the parties present through the discussions (and remove themselves from the chair temporarily if they wish to say something about the subject under discussion) is not a difficult thing to achieve. I've done it and I'm sure other members of the CSM have, just as I'm certain many forum readers / EVE pilots generally have. It shouldn't be the case that we need some referee in there alongside the Chair. In the elections I was the ninth person to be seated in the Council, but the rules say we are all equal once we are serving on the CSM. That appears to be regularly forgotten by some (hence my reminding them) and though I didn't get overwhelming support I was elected and thus I serve all pilots throughout EVE, not just those who voted for me. I am not answerable to my corp or alliance (indeed you may have noted disagreements I've had with my corp's leader on the forums!) and don't have to 'politik' my statements or decisions other than to do what I believe is in the best interests of all pilots. I would like to believe that last night's meeting was an aberration and we will move on positively in future. IZ ps. Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Two of Nine isn't "primarily" sfaiaa ... My principles
NerftheSmurf GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:56:00 - [150] hey jade could you just copy/paste in the chatlogs that show the disruptive influence that forced you to mute a csm tia

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:57:00 - [151] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Quoting an "I know you are but what am I" post. Spoken like a true child. (I didn't expect you to reason your way out of it because you're wrong.) How about you reason your way out of it? How about you get the logs which have been quoted here and in other places for your convenience and make an argument as to why this member was being disruptive? Because the way i see it is the opposite. That when things didn't go your way you had a hissy fit and attempted to change the outcome in various ways. The first time you redefined the outcome of a vote that didn't go your way, the second time you badgered two CSMs to change their vote in a vote that they had already voted in!
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 16:59:00 - [152] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 16:55:15 Originally by: Slash Harnet Good ol' CSM members, if you're reading this, you may want to look at getting a neutral NON-VOTING parliamentarian to run your meetings. The kind of bias in those logs is inexcusable for someone running that kind of meeting. That a Chair can be neutral and unbiased during a meeting, and assist the parties present through the discussions (and remove themselves from the chair temporarily if they wish to say something about the subject under discussion) is not a difficult thing to achieve. I've done it and I'm sure other members of the CSM have, just as I'm certain many forum readers / EVE pilots generally have. It shouldn't be the case that we need some referee in there alongside the Chair. In the elections I was the ninth person to be seated in the Council, but the rules say we are all equal once we are serving on the CSM. That appears to be regularly forgotten by some (hence my reminding them) and though I didn't get overwhelming support I was elected and thus I serve all pilots throughout EVE, not just those who voted for me. I am not answerable to my corp or alliance (indeed you may have noted disagreements I've had with my corp's leader on the forums!) and don't have to 'politik' my statements or decisions other than to do what I believe is in the best interests of all pilots. I would like to believe that last night's meeting was an aberration and we will move on positively in future. IZ ps. Originally by: Rakivic Besides is it any wonder they are like this the CSM board is primarily made up of Americans Two of Nine isn't "primarily" sfaiaa ... Inanna, do you speak for all CSM's as being comfortable to raising objections after what has transpired?
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:05:00 - [153] Edited by: Inanna Zuni on 09/06/2008 17:06:21 Originally by: Pnuka Inanna, do you speak for all CSM's as being comfortable to raising objections after what has transpired? At all times I speak for myself; I could not say what others may or may not believe. When I speak for myself I try to best represent the interests of all EVE players and not my personal belief or play style. I will, however, continue to query whomever is in the chair if they make a statement contrary to the agreed position or fail to explain themselves or their actions. That is the duty of any member of any committee or Council and despite the bullying / ongoing threats I will not change that. If pilots do not feel I did a good job then they can choose to not support me at the next elections; if they believe I did right then they can vote for me. It is called democracy and, in my opinion, is better than autocracy. I think there is a quote something like "Here I was elected, Here I stand and fight for them all". IZ My principles
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:09:00 - [154] Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? It's unfortunate that the CSM has turned out like this, and that there's so much bad feeling in the air about it. Actually, it borders on being dissapointing to be honest. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:16:00 - [155] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? We have an agenda, rep starts bringing up a topic not on the agenda = Chair (moderation) "thats not on the agenda, please disregard that topic." We have a topic, rep starts talking about a different topic = Chair (moderation) "thats not the topic please return to the topic." We have a vote, rep starts debating other people's voting choices = Chair (moderation) "please refrain from interfering with the process of the vote" Etc etc etc. Moderation of a meeting does not mean censorship. It means that you are doing what you can to ensure the agenda items get raised, introduced, everyone who has a desire to speak on it gets to speak and say their piece, and then a vote happens, results are recorded. Without some kind of moderation what is to stop the meeting simply arguing about the first agenda item for 2 hours and getting nowhere? Quote: It's unfortunate that the CSM has turned out like this, and that there's so much bad feeling in the air about it. Actually, it borders on being dissapointing to be honest. 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [156] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:10:08 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. Sorry, but that single sentence is one of the most stupid things I've ever seen posted on these fourms. What the hell is the point in a discussion if one person can ultimately decide what is discussed, and silence anyone with whom they don't agree? What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? We have an agenda, rep starts bringing up a topic not on the agenda = Chair (moderation) "thats not on the agenda, please disregard that topic." We have a topic, rep starts talking about a different topic = Chair (moderation) "thats not the topic please return to the topic." We have a vote, rep starts debating other people's voting choices = Chair (moderation) "please refrain from interfering with the process of the vote" Etc etc etc. Moderation of a meeting does not mean censorship. It means that you are doing what you can to ensure the agenda items get raised, introduced, everyone who has a desire to speak on it gets to speak and say their piece, and then a vote happens, results are recorded. Without some kind of moderation what is to stop the meeting simply arguing about the first agenda item for 2 hours and getting nowhere? Restating votes in terms other than the ones which were actually voted on then muting people for calling you on it IS censorship. The things you're referring to don't appear to be in the logs.
Gone'Postal Scoopex The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [157] Oh man that chat log is GOLD... Keep up the "good" work people I need more lulz Jade Constantine We really need a What A Dong emote. Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:18:00 - [158] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 09/06/2008 17:20:45 Originally by: Jade Constantine What is it with the damned hippy-flower-child-politically-correct mumbo jumbo being spoken on these forums today? Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Quoting for posterity. Keep digging yourself deeper. The most frustrating part of this all is your inability to accept responsibility for your actions. You don't even seem to realise why what you did was wrong. Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". **** you. If the CSM doesn't remove you from chair its a failure that should be put on all of them.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:22:00 - [159] 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. Wow.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:24:00 - [160] One word. Narcissism.

shuckstar Hauling hogs CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:26:00 - [161] Originally by: Jamie Hara Edited by: Jamie Hara on 09/06/2008 04:37:36 You can't really blame CCP though. They didn't vote for the candidate(s) that obviously aren't up to the task of acting like adults. edit: Link to the log in question: http://www.eve-csm.com/meetings/chatlogs/20080608councilofstellarmanagementlogs.rtf Be warned, it's very long. I can blame CCP they thought up the crappy thing, Anyway you CSM guys you act like a bunch of kids. I hope CCP dont pull it or scrap it tho, becuase if all the CSM meetings are gonna be as imature as that one, you will feed me with LOL's for a long time to come. Shows we elected a bunch of morons mostly. Next vote i wont bother.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:33:00 - [162] Originally by: Anton Marvik Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". Lol, don't make me laugh. A few dozen goon forum trolls and assorted hangers on is not "the community." Seriously, get over yourselves guys. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:36:00 - [163] Originally by: Jade Constantine Seriously, get over yourselves guys. Are you familiar with the term "Irony"?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:37:00 - [164] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Anton Marvik Now you're just going to brush off the community's outrage by saying we "just want the CSM to fail". Lol, don't make me laugh. A few dozen goon forum trolls and assorted hangers on is not "the community." Seriously, get over yourselves guys. There is more "support" for this issue than there is for any of the issues you personally pushed onto the agenda under the guise of "community support"
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:39:00 - [165] 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Team Minmatar
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:40:00 - [166] Originally by: Anton Marvik Are you familiar with the term "Irony"? In before Goon Conspiracy, ohwait. You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:41:00 - [167] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. Yep, you're right. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:41:00 - [168] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Has he come out somewhere and said he was paraphrasing? I asked him what he was doing and he is ignoring me.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:43:00 - [169] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Anton Marvik Are you familiar with the term "Irony"? In before Goon Conspiracy, ohwait. You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. You keep telling yourself it's only goons. Just like you told yourself you had won some vote for moderation capability. Just like you told yourself that Inanna was being disruptive. Just like you told yourself that the chat logs show anything other than you being a tit. I think you're on meds.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:44:00 - [170] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!

Drago Vanguard Vanguard Corporation	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:45:00 - [171] Edited by: Drago Vanguard on 09/06/2008 17:47:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine You were a bit too slow. Seriously though, I'm thinking of have a siggy made that says "I muted a CSM rep and 2000 goons flamed me" - now that'll be funny. There's plenty of non-Goons criticizing your immaturity and unprofessionalism, along with fellow CSM reps.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:51:00 - [172] Originally by: Jade Constantine In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. I think you've got the wrong guy. Also, how would I be able to see for myself if you're on meds? Would I rifle through your purse? I'm an ******* not a creep.
Kaylana Syi Stimulus	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:56:00 - [173] Originally by: Pnuka Originally by: Kaylana Syi 1) Adhere to the voting rules CCP stated. Stop trying to make new rules. 2) Inanna Zuni stop interupting. 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating ****er. You are so transparent its not even funny. 4) Jade, copy and paste is the true way to paraphrase, ie DON'T PARAPHRASE, when you have a bunch of people who vote on something. 5) I can't believe the Amarr Roleplayer and the Super Bears are the most professional lot in that chatlog. Has he come out somewhere and said he was paraphrasing? I asked him what he was doing and he is ignoring me. Jade tried to paraphrase the first vote on the alternate member. It didn't seem self-motivated and there is a clear understanding that there are logs to make sure he doesn't twist and turn votes into something other than what they where. But moderators don't need to do that. They do get a mute button in meetings. They can pull the room aside to make sure they are on track. There was nothing malicious about what Jade did in that log. There is something Darius JOHNSON did and that was try to undermine Jade's postition at every opportunity he could. Its pathetic. Everything he said boiled down to, "who the hell do you think you are?" The funny thing is people are complaining about the time in that log. They want to get it done. Jade muted someone who kept dragging it off topic late into the meeting. Bane even wanted it to be over. A goon. Jade decides to put the majority of the members ahead of one and gave a warning. That is what I saw. This is turning out to be a really poor soap. Jade stated he already wanted to step down as CSM chair well before the incident. What else do you want from the guy seriously. Its nothing but a big target unless a goon with a forum brigade gets the position and keeps the threads rolling in their favor by volumes of worthless circle jerking threads. Might as well just shut down the CSM and let CCP write it off as a lost cause. Team Minmatar
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:57:00 - [174] Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. As for your other points, I'm not saying that a meeting shouldn't be chaired. I'm questioning what the hell the point is in a meeting when people who're taking part can't put their viewpoints across because they're silenced by an overzealous channel moderator. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Gone'Postal Scoopex The Volition Cult	Posted - 2008.06.09 17:59:00 - [175] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. He might not be, but i'm looking forward to you trying to "mute" people when your in Iceland. It's a lot harder without the button Questions, Comments, Problems, Please address them to the CSM.. Now CCP Never have to visit the forum. -V8I-
Letouk Mernel	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:05:00 - [176] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. What are the Icelandic laws if a public brawl or fight takes place? What is CCP's stance on it? Cause, judging by the way the forums have exploded and judging by how people are reacting, there might be a fight. People could be more polite in person. Or not.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:07:00 - [177] Originally by: Letouk Mernel What are the Icelandic laws if a public brawl or fight takes place? CCP could always claim it is a sporting event, Sumo Wrestling.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:10:00 - [178] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 18:10:19 Originally by: Kaylana Syi But moderators don't need to do that. Begs the question "Why did Jade do that". Its quite clear that Jade editorialized, not once, but twice, the vote that Hardin put forward. Then, when someone questioned said editorializing, Jade got indignant that they were "disrupting the meeting". Bull**, the editorializing was disrupting the meeting. Objections are only disruptive when they are frivolous. Was it? Certainly not. If its not(and it wasn't), then the disruption is caused by the person doing whatever was objectionable. In both instances, the first when Jade editorialized a vote that had gone against her way and the second when Jade badgered two people who voted in a manner that did not suit her needs to change their vote on an issue she wanted passed it was Jade who was doing the disrupting. Quote:** Jade stated he already wanted to step down as CSM chair well before the incident Then why hasn't Jade done so, the CSM document provides provisions for said step down and Jade had read the CSM document at the time of making said claim. It seems, that when someone makes a claim in full knowledge of what that claim means, then they don't follow through on that claim when the time comes to do so they were lying about their original intent.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:10:00 - [179] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. As for your other points, I'm not saying that a meeting shouldn't be chaired. I'm questioning what the hell the point is in a meeting when people who're taking part can't put their viewpoints across because they're silenced by an overzealous channel moderator. I stand by that moderation decision 100%. I don't care if 10,000 goons get up on their hind legs and cry primal soliloquies to the moon about this. If a disruptive CSM member is preventing us getting the business of the meeting done then I believe the Chair has the right to temp mute them to get the business of the vote underway. This wasn't about stopping discussion - the person in question had their say (many times) and their objections were noted - but the group wanted to move to the vote and get it done. Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone, but I believe getting through the agenda items and properly representing the player base that voted for us is more important than listening to pointless circular arguments that have already been stated in the course of the meeting. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:11:00 - [180] Edited by: Wu Jiun on 09/06/2008 18:13:17 lol. and she just keeps going. like the duracell bunny but... less professional. what i like the most: writing it off as a goon campaign when clearly several members of the council have raised their concerns about her behaviour and so have a lot of other (non-goons) people. how can one be that delusional? yes, jade constantine, you actually ****ed a whole lot of people off. and it will come and bite you. lets see how your self importance goes once you've lost your e-powers.

Nuyan Zahedi PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:13:00 - [181] Originally by: Letouk Mernel Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I think you're on meds. In a few days time you can see for yourself. Something tells me you'll be a lot more polite in person. Time will tell. What are the Icelandic laws if a public brawl or fight takes place? What is CCP's stance on it? Cause, judging by the way the forums have exploded and judging by how people are reacting, there might be a fight. People could be more polite in person. Or not. I heard Iceland has the oldest democratic parliament of the world, they probably have a rich history of vikings chopping off eachothers' heads in heated debates. The next meeting in Iceland will be recorded right? I mean, that's very important. CSM should be transparent and all that. -- My blog
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:14:00 - [182] Originally by: Jade Constantine I don't care if 10,000 goons get up on their hind legs and cry primal soliloquies to the moon about this. Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone... Further irony. In the same post you can insinuate only Goons are complaining, while "addressing" Verone's (Who is most certainly not a Goon) concerns which mirror those of everyone else. This is called "psychosis", disconnection from reality.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:14:00 - [183] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Um... nowhere is it stated any member of the CSM should be muting anyone. Least of all for having an opinion. To clarify this point with something that was said in another thread which I had to correct: Here is the vote in question and context to the post. Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Jade Constantine I had clearly explained the process in the previous meeting: [ 2008.05.31 19:26:41 ] Jade Constantine > let me address the muting stuff [ 2008.05.31 19:26:59 ] Jade Constantine > As chair I would take the following steps on moderation: [ 2008.05.31 19:27:09 ] Jade Constantine > if somebody is disruptive I'd ask them to stop [ 2008.05.31 19:27:20 ] Jade Constantine > if they don't stop I'll eventually give a warning [ 2008.05.31 19:27:25 ] Jade Constantine > then a second warning [ 2008.05.31 19:27:33 ] Jade Constantine > then use the mute function outside of voting [ 2008.05.31 19:27:43 ] Jade Constantine > I hope these are steps that will never be needed (this led to a vote on the principle of operator rights that confirmed that CSM officers would maintain operator rights) Stop Lying liar. This is the vote in question [2008.05.31 19:31:38 ] Jade Constantine >Everyone in favour of everyone having op rights in the CSM channel say aye : [ 2008.05.31 19:31:44 ] Ankhesentapemkah >Yes for universal op rights. [ 2008.05.31 19:31:45 ] Inanna Zuni >Aye [ 2008.05.31 19:31:52 ] Darius JOHNSON >no [ 2008.05.31 19:31:55 ] Jade Constantine >Nay [ 2008.05.31 19:31:56 ] Serenity Steele >No [ 2008.05.31 19:31:56 ] Dierdra Vaal >aye [ 2008.05.31 19:31:58 ] LaVista Vista >Nay [ 2008.05.31 19:32:04 ] Bane Glorious >gonna go with nay [ 2008.05.31 19:32:21 ] Tusko Hopkins >Aye [ 2008.05.31 19:32:43 ] Jade Constantine >thatÆs a No then ... So it looks like you are again redefining a vote to suit your needs. Note how there is nothing in that vote that says "The CSM Chairman retains OP rights and the ability to mute others" it simply says that this right should not be given to everyone. It does not say, anywhere that the right should be given to anyone, just that it should not be given to everyone The discussion then moved on to the template document.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:15:00 - [184] Originally by: Jade Constantine I stand by that moderation decision 100%. I don't care if 10,000 goons get up on their hind legs and cry primal soliloquies to the moon about this. If a disruptive CSM member is preventing us getting the business of the meeting done then I believe the Chair has the right to temp mute them to get the business of the vote underway. This wasn't about stopping discussion - the person in question had their say (many times) and their objections were noted - but the group wanted to move to the vote and get it done. Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone, but I believe getting through the agenda items and properly representing the player base that voted for us is more important than listening to pointless circular arguments that have already been stated in the course of the meeting. Oh man that's a great quote.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:16:00 - [185] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 Originally by: Jade Constantine 99% of the bad feeling comes from people who for one reason or other have decided they want the CSM to fail. Don't be one of them Verone. In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. As for your other points, I'm not saying that a meeting shouldn't be chaired. I'm questioning what the hell the point is in a meeting when people who're taking part can't put their viewpoints across because they're silenced by an overzealous channel moderator. I stand by that moderation decision 100%. I don't care if 10,000 goons get up on their hind legs and cry primal soliloquies to the moon about this. If a disruptive CSM member is preventing us getting the business of the meeting done then I believe the Chair has the right to temp mute them to get the business of the vote underway. This wasn't about stopping discussion - the person in question had their say (many times) and their objections were noted - but the group wanted to move to the vote and get it done. Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone, but I believe getting through the agenda items and properly representing the player base that voted for us is more important than listening to pointless circular arguments that have already been stated in the course of the meeting. I'm 100% standing by my decision to moderate when someone points out something I have done incorrectly and later admit to. Right?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:17:00 - [186] Originally by: Wu Jiun lol. and she just keeps going. like the duracell bunny but... less professional. what i like the most: writing it off as a goon campaing when clearly several members of the council have raised their concerns about her behaviour and so have a lot of other (non-goons) people. how can one be that delusional? None of the concerns brought up have convinced me that there was anything incorrect about the moderation decision. I stand by it 100%. If CCP think I was wrong they can sack me, if the CSM think I was wrong they can support my motion to make the Chair an elected position and then vote for somebody else. At this point thats all anybody can substantively say on issue. We can have another 1000 goon posts complaining about muting and pretending to care about the process of the CSM but it will make precisely no difference. I made a call, I stick by it. Move on or keep crying. Either way the agenda is going forward and we'll see what happens in Iceland. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Baron Levian Bloodveil BLOOD EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:18:00 - [187] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 17:59:47 In my eyes, given the amount of putrid adolescent slush that's poured out of the mouths of the very people who should be running the CSM, it's already failed. CSM with Jade: [ 2008.06.08 22:02:28 ] LaVista Vista > This is a waste of everybody's time
Jacque Custeau Knights of the Minmatar Republic	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:26:00 - [188] I love the way people voted for Hardin's proposition that allows CSM members who are late to a meeting come in after the current agenda item is over. Quote: 1st issue is can the elected candidate return to a meeting and regain voting rights when the debate moves on to the next item on the agenda And then Jade's idea of paraphrasing Quote: alternates can be removed from CSM rep voting status at any time by a candidate arriving at the meeting -------------------
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:27:00 - [189] Originally by: Jade Constantine Sorry if it chaffs your sense of political correctness Verone, but I believe getting through the agenda items and properly representing the player base that voted for us is more important than listening to pointless circular arguments that have already been stated in the course of the meeting. I chuckle at the thought that anyone would even consider me to be concerned about political correctness. Back to the point in question, I still fail to see where you even remotely used a sense of rational judgement when "Moderating" the meeting in question. Moreover, it seems to me that this is the first instance of a CSM member using their position to force their voice to be heard over another equally important voice. When I withdrew from the CSM applicants list, I mused on how long it would be before this kind of thing would occur, sadly I had more faith than I should have and it was misplaced due to the fact a mere matter of weeks into the first council's office, it's already happening. On a serious note, I'm concerned Jade, extremely concerned. If you're the elected person who's chosen to represent my voice, and that of the the rest of the community in an office with CCP, in a sensible, well presented and mature way, then how do you think it makes myself and thousands of others feel to see you throwing your toys out of the playpen, and throwing your weight about when you can't get your own way? And all this, just a couple of weeks into a SIX MONTH term. I'm concerned Jade, and as someone who you were elected to represent, I have to ask; You were elected in by the majority vote because people had faith in you to act in a becoming manner of someone given the position of CSM Chairman. How do you intend on repairing the apparently massive damage that's been done to the working relationship between CSM members because of your hasty and overzealous silencing of people who aren't saying what you want to hear? Please don't take this post as bigotry, because trolling you, I am not. I'm genuinely concerned where the already visible divide between members of the CSM will lead. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Kallynda Nai	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:28:00 - [190] Originally by: Jade Constantine We can have another 1000 goon posts complaining about muting and pretending to care about the process of the CSM but it will make precisely no difference. What about another 1000 posts from non-goons? I'm a mission running rping carebear who lives in high sec where I can stare at my shiny toys with impunity, and I think you were out of line, reactionary and completely delusional in your "enforcement" of your imaginary powers. I'm shocked and a little dismayed to see that the two goon representatives on the council are outclassing you in spades.

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:29:00 - [191] Originally by: Jade Constantine None of the concerns brought up have convinced me that there was anything incorrect about the moderation decision. Why not? There are two sides to an argument. "Nuh uh" is not one of them. Quote: If CCP think I was wrong they can sack me No, they cannot. There is no provision for that in the CSM document, did you even read the thing? Quote: if the CSM think I was wrong they can support my motion to make the Chair an elected position and then vote for somebody else No, they cannot. Did you even read the CSM document? The CSM brings the issues to CCP. CCP responds. There is no ability to change the CSM document granted to the CSM. The only way that the chair can be an elected position as current is for you to step down as you promised you would as allowed by the CSM document when you were running where the council would then elect a new chairman. Why don't you honor your promise? Why instead do you choose to redefine the debate to suit your needs. There is no Fox News on these forums to parrot your reality Jade. All we have is the facts, and they disagree with you.
Jita Jolene	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:31:00 - [192] Resolutions: - Darius has an axe to grind, put it away. Read up on what chairmanship means. - Jade will restrain the desire to mute as it is far more damaging than useful. - Everyone there will behave differently next time. Their underwear, like anyone's, are better unrevealed. As I read the logs I was amazed at the utter deluge of interruptions from half the CSM. I have chaired many similar text chat meetings and the ONLY WAY IT WORKS IS TO SHUT UP until it is your turn to speak. Everyone will (should) have a turn with the floor, usually granted in the order of requests placed. The job of the chair is to signal when the next person has the floor. When a person is finished speaking (has the floor), they signal to the chair that they relinquish the floor. Nobody else speaks in that interval, including the chair. When that process fails, the person disrupting must be handled or the meeting falls apart quickly. There was only one person following this protocol, and she gained the attention of the chair with an !. Cheers to the one person doing it right :) I'll bet all my isk the next meeting is more civil, on all sides.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:32:00 - [193] Originally by: Jacque Custeau I love the way people voted for Hardin's proposition that allows CSM members who are late to a meeting come in after the current agenda item is over. Quote: 1st issue is can the elected candidate return to a meeting and regain voting rights when the debate moves on to the next item on the agenda And then Jade's idea of paraphrasing Quote: alternates can be removed from CSM rep voting status at any time by a candidate arriving at the meeting Well Jacque ... this is the motion from the agenda: Quote: 1. Alternates and Voting (if an alternate is empowered to replace a full rep for the meetings does can a rep come back mid-way through and take the alternates place once again?) (Hardin) I wanted to be sure on precisely what we were agreeing too. As you will note from the chatlog - anytime people questioned my paraphrasing I invited them to restate themselves for the record. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:33:00 - [194] Originally by: Goumindong No, they cannot. There is no provision for that in the CSM document, did you even read the thing? CCP can indeed remove council members.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:36:00 - [195] Originally by: Verone You were elected in by the majority vote because people had faith in you to act in a becoming manner of someone given the position of CSM Chairman. How do you intend on repairing the apparently massive damage that's been done to the working relationship between CSM members because of your hasty and overzealous silencing of people who aren't saying what you want to hear? No damage has been done. This is all forum froth and trolling. In reality we'll sit down next week and whenever and continue our job. You are welcome to your opinion that this was "hasty and overzealous" muting. I (and incidentally the V Chair) am of the opinion it was entirely correct muting of a person who had fallen into a pattern of disruptive behaviour in the meeting. I have no opinions about what people say in meetings. Its the when I'm concerned about. As long as they follow the proper order of debate, they respect other recognized speakers and they curtail their interruptions when asked there will be no further problems. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:53:00 - [196] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Goumindong I am sorry, i was excluding the "eligibility" segment, since Jades post was clearly indicating that they had the power to remove CSMs at their digression rather than if they violated a pre-existing agreement which precluded their involvement in the game. Though it should be noted that both the documents do not actually provide a manner in which CCP can remove a CSM, only when a player may not run. Technically, since a CSM is no longer running after they have been elected there is no way for CCP to remove them, though i doubt they would care with an EULA violation. I'll look everything over later. I could have sworn there was some line in there regarding CCP being able to remove people. I thought so too, but i went and checked and didn't find it. v0v I could have missed it though
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:54:00 - [197] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Jacque Custeau I love the way people voted for Hardin's proposition that allows CSM members who are late to a meeting come in after the current agenda item is over. Quote: 1st issue is can the elected candidate return to a meeting and regain voting rights when the debate moves on to the next item on the agenda And then Jade's idea of paraphrasing Quote: alternates can be removed from CSM rep voting status at any time by a candidate arriving at the meeting Well Jacque ... this is the motion from the agenda: Quote: 1. Alternates and Voting (if an alternate is empowered to replace a full rep for the meetings does can a rep come back mid-way through and take the alternates place once again?) (Hardin) I wanted to be sure on precisely what we were agreeing too. As you will note from the chatlog - anytime people questioned my paraphrasing I invited them to restate themselves for the record. And that is the very point I was making when I asked you to stop editorialising. The original motion was a positive .. elected reps taking their rightful place .. whereas you were redefining it as a negative .. alternates get dumped. Whilst I am very happy that (some) alternates are in the meeting channel and can step in as required it is the elected members who are here to serve the podpilot population for their six-month term, Your 'reworking' made out that the elected members mattered less than the 'oh so close but no tomato' ones, and I saw that as very wrong. IZ My principles
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:57:00 - [198] Originally by: Jade Constantine Quote: Furthermore, you're stating that you'll continue to do the same thing if you feel that someone is getting in the way of what you have to say, and that you have no problem silencing members of the CSM for no other reason than to be able to talk over them. Nope thats absolutely not what I said and you know it. Poor play Verone, very poor. No, that is what you said and you know it. You know it because we have quoted you, in this thread, doing what you did. And you are quoted here in this thread saying you would do the same thing. So either the record is wrong. And its not, its copy pasted from the logs and formatted officially by the secretary. You were lying when you said that you would do it again. Or you were not lying when you said you would do it again and Verone's interpretation is correct. Neither outcome is very flattering for you.
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.06.09 18:59:00 - [199] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yep since the "vast majority" of posters here are goons with an agenda to promote and are enjoying the simple joy of trolling. And since this "vast majority" = a few dozen individual posters at best its easy to ignore, especially since the motivation of these posters is ridiculously transparent. Just because goons post on the forum, it doesn't make it false. Also, I think the reaction I have had from people who contacted me out of the blue on messenger, says it all. Jade, saying something is false doesn't make it true. People have documented your behaviour trough logs. You have only stated that people are wrong.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:02:00 - [200] Edited by: Pnuka on 09/06/2008 19:04:10 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Jade Constantine Yep since the "vast majority" of posters here are goons with an agenda to promote and are enjoying the simple joy of trolling. And since this "vast majority" = a few dozen individual posters at best its easy to ignore, especially since the motivation of these posters is ridiculously transparent. Just because goons post on the forum, it doesn't make it false. Also, I think the reaction I have had from people who contacted me out of the blue on messenger, says it all. Jade, saying something is false doesn't make it true. People have documented your behaviour trough logs. You have only stated that people are wrong. Whist I personally think Jade was incorrect for a number of reason to mute you I would like to take this particular opportunity to ask you to leave that area well alone. If the Goons or any other alliance/corp represented on the CSM decided to war dec Star Fraction for a slight on the CSM I would expect most of the allaince would do two things. First laugh at people not being able to keep out of game activites out of game and secondly cheers for a free war. And whilst you may wish to quote a certain 80's TV show in regards to your opinion on this subject it is quite clear what you are implying by bringing it up. Furtheremore I personally feel that the ones at fault is mostly CCP for not providing the CSM will more structure before deploying it as I think most of the arguements, diagrements and time wasting of the last couple of weeks can clearly be placed at thier door for the lack of support in creating this council in regards to the procedural side of the CSM. If there had have been more of it in place the CSM could have got on with representing the people who voted for them straight out the gate rather than it having to spend all this time bickering about simple matter of internal policy. Maybe if we quote Star Fraction members that think Jade was wrong on a "number" of things he'll listen. That is Hearthstone here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898

Liendri	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:17:00 - [201] After reading the chatlog i must say that the incident was unlucky and maybe jade was a bit too hasty with the mute, but seriously the way some people smack on Jade is just childish and ridiculous.
Wasted Mind Syntech Research and Development Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:19:00 - [202] Aside from the other odd chatting etc that went on gotta say i agree with the following. Sry couldn't help but to notice this one.. Hardin >arriving 5 mins late for a meeting shouldnÆt exclude the democratically elected candidate from not participating Gotta say i agree with that one post right there. Why the hell would i want an alternate to vote instead of someone who was voted in just cause the guy was 5 minutes late ? Mid vote on topic 1 per say, hardin arrives but doesn't know what's up ? Sure let the alternate vote on that one topic. On to next topic alternate leaves Hardin (in the example) would take over.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:21:00 - [203] Originally by: Wasted Mind Aside from the other odd chatting etc that went on gotta say i agree with the following. Sry couldn't help but to notice this one.. Hardin >arriving 5 mins late for a meeting shouldnÆt exclude the democratically elected candidate from not participating Gotta say i agree with that one post right there. Why the hell would i want an alternate to vote instead of someone who was voted in just cause the guy was 5 minutes late ? Mid vote on topic 1 per say, hardin arrives but doesn't know what's up ? Sure let the alternate vote on that one topic. On to next topic alternate leaves Hardin (in the example) would take over. That was precisely how the majority of the council felt about it.
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:22:00 - [204] Edited by: Verone on 09/06/2008 19:22:51 Originally by: Jade Constantine Nope thats absolutely not what I said and you know it. Poor play Verone, very poor. Now you're putting words in my mouth. Whe you run out of arguments Jade, it boils down to one thing. Apparently I have an issue with you, or Goonfleet have an issue with you, or someone else who disagrees has an issue with you, and doesn't like you and therefore is trying to troll you. That's not the case in this instance. I still regard you as one of the most respected players in the game, hence the position you've been put in BY THE PLAYERBASE. If I was trying to troll you, cause you problems or be a pain for you, trust me, you'd know about it and these words would be a lot harsher. I'm genuinely concerned, because I don't feel that as a chairman, you should be silencing any member of the CSM who wants to speak and has the right to do so. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Phoenus Body Count Inc. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:31:00 - [205] Verone, myself and you haven't often seen eye to eye in the past, on a whole multitude of issues. What I will say here though, is that what you have posted in this thread, is 100% spot on, and has been echoed in various channels I sit in. I haven't been an avid supporter of the whole CSM thing from the start, because it was pretty evident that this is the way it would go. I can't say I'm glad to see myself proven right though. Jade, just because somebody disagrees with you, does not mean that they have an issue with you, or they are trying to troll you.
Joe Starbreaker	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:41:00 - [206] Originally by: Jade Constantine I made a call, I stick by it, move on or keep crying. Either way [I'm] going [to] Iceland. Fixed that quote for ya. ------------------------------------------------
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:43:00 - [207] Originally by: Phoenus I haven't been an avid supporter of the whole CSM thing from the start, because it was pretty evident that this is the way it would go. I can't say I'm glad to see myself proven right though. Believe me, I'm so glad my opinion changed and I decided to withdraw. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Vantras Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 19:52:00 - [208] <--not a Goon and I completely agree with Verone and by chance-some Goons. Add the power crazed behavior, obvious attempts at manipulation and spin in re-phrasing resolutions for dramatic effect, and top it off with the over zealous support of a Star Fraction specific agenda and you have a total disaster in the Chairman role. Hard to imagine a worse combination of immaturity, egomania and a total committment to a self serving agenda all bottled up into person sitting in the Chairman seat. A terrible shame for what could have been a decent social experiement in EVE.
Christy Walton Bloodveil	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:05:00 - [209] Originally by: Verone So, let me get this straight : You're pretty much saying that although the vast majority of people who've posted, and whom you chair a body to represent, completely disagree with your treatment of CSM members and are up in arms about it, you see nothing wrong with it and as such you did the correct thing? Furthermore, you're stating that you'll continue to do the same thing if you feel that someone is getting in the way of what you have to say, and that you have no problem silencing members of the CSM for no other reason than to be able to talk over them. You have blinders on to the world Jade, and there's something seriously wrong with the CSM and it's goals if you feel that this should be your role. I feel sorry for Jade. Lost his time, his gf and now his virtual reputation (if he ever had one) Maybe he should resign and let CSM try to recover.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:06:00 - [210] Originally by: Verone I'm genuinely concerned, because I don't feel that as a chairman, you should be silencing any member of the CSM who wants to speak and has the right to do so. Whether or not they had the right to do so is the question. It depends on whether there are rules of order or whether any CSM rep can shout whatever they want wheneve they want. If the chair's job is to lead the meeting and ensure it adheres to rules of order, then it surely is the chair's job to call for silence when participants are out of order. The question is whether there are rules of order - either implicitly or explicitly - that the participants are supposed to be abiding by. Serenity Steele may have been using a method of requesting the floor of his own devising, but all the council members should be behaving with that sort of decorum, otherwise we have the parentheticals and exclamations that get in the way of an orderly discussion where everyone has a turn to say their peace. I don't think the intention is for the CSM chamber to be a place where people shout over each other. And in the end that means someone has to be able to enforce order if the members cannot contain themselves to orderly conduct.

Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:12:00 - [211] Originally by: Kelsin Whether or not they had the right to do so is the question. It depends on whether there are rules of order or whether any CSM rep can shout whatever they want wheneve they want. If the chair's job is to lead the meeting and ensure it adheres to rules of order, then it surely is the chair's job to call for silence when participants are out of order. The question is whether there are rules of order - either implicitly or explicitly - that the participants are supposed to be abiding by. Serenity Steele may have been using a method of requesting the floor of his own devising, but all the council members should be behaving with that sort of decorum, otherwise we have the parentheticals and exclamations that get in the way of an orderly discussion where everyone has a turn to say their peace. I don't think the intention is for the CSM chamber to be a place where people shout over each other. And in the end that means someone has to be able to enforce order if the members cannot contain themselves to orderly conduct. If CCP wanted that they should have specified such and put a democratic process in place to choose the group's chair. "Most votes overall" is a poor way to determine this. Another alternative would have been for them to appoint someone to chair the meetings. My main problem with the process so far hasn't been order. It's been the lack of guidance from CCP and the usurping of "power" by people not responsible for doing so. If you look to the meeting prior to yesterday you'll see that as long as we stick to spaceships and away from power grabs, we are quite capable of carrying on a dialogue without the need for a daddy.
Dohl Khrensen Huang Yinglong FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:15:00 - [212] Originally by: Vantras A terrible shame for what could have been a decent social experiement in EVE. Isn't this the social experiment going pretty well as expected? There is no reason the CSM can't still obtain success in their original goal as long as everyone can take a step back, calm down, and get back to the task at hand. Anyone with real life board experience knows that people make mistakes, can't shut up, talk out of turn, get their nose out-of joint, get worked up, etc., at meetings. It doesn't mean you ask for resignations or give up on the process. You just just take a breath, prepare your material as best you can, and go into the next meeting trying to be as progressive and productive as possible. There are a lot of good points made in these threads (and this is not a STFU post), but let's give them a chance to sort things out on their own. Blatent optimism, I know, but if I didn't have some faith in people I'd have quit this game long ago.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:24:00 - [213] Originally by: Christy Walton I feel sorry for Jade. Lost his time, his gf and now his virtual reputation (if he ever had one) Maybe he should resign and let CSM try to recover. Good heavens could you be more dramatic! Do you think my dog and goldfish are going to die next! Listen to yourself. I volunteered to an elected position on a bloody player council in a mmorpg. I muted somebody in a meeting to let a vote get counted. Now my "virtual reputation" (whatever that is) "lies in tatters" I've "lost my time" (sounds like a doctor who plot) and I've lost my gf? Though how you'd know anything about my personal life I've got no clue. Go outdoors! Smell the fresh air! Get a sense of perspective and have a beer! Go find a girlfriend and have some fun mate. shakes his head kids today honestly. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:27:00 - [214] Originally by: Dohl Khrensen Originally by: Vantras A terrible shame for what could have been a decent social experiement in EVE. Isn't this the social experiment going pretty well as expected? There is no reason the CSM can't still obtain success in their original goal as long as everyone can take a step back, calm down, and get back to the task at hand. Anyone with real life board experience knows that people make mistakes, can't shut up, talk out of turn, get their nose out-of joint, get worked up, etc., at meetings. It doesn't mean you ask for resignations or give up on the process. You just just take a breath, prepare your material as best you can, and go into the next meeting trying to be as progressive and productive as possible. There are a lot of good points made in these threads (and this is not a STFU post), but let's give them a chance to sort things out on their own. Blatent optimism, I know, but if I didn't have some faith in people I'd have quit this game long ago. Actually I am quite surprised to see the meeting progress when no in game politics are involved. So when they are talking space ships you get to actually see objective game mechanic discussions at play (for the most part) But when the power play comes in and e-peen muscles are being flexed, that is when we see the crap. I am sorry but there should be no reason to silence any one with in the context of that last meeting. It was a bit over the top and unnecessary. If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting. A sign of a good leader is someone who listens more than he/she speaks. And leads more than he/she dictates.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:38:00 - [215] Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting. Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:43:00 - [216] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If you look to the meeting prior to yesterday you'll see that as long as we stick to spaceships and away from power grabs, we are quite capable of carrying on a dialogue without the need for a daddy. Hell yes to this. Cheers to you all for sticking it out and getting issues on the table with CCP, as that's the most important thing. That said, CCP did appoint a chair - the person with the most votes. And they charged that Chairperson with leading the meetings. Implicit in leading meetings is keeping some semblance of order and moving the discussion and agenda forward. While you suggest that the Chair has no powers, the only documentation of how the CSM is supposed to run says the Chairperson runs the meetings. It would have been nice if CCP had written detailed instructions, but they didn't. It's up to you guys to work together to keep things moving and the only instruction given is that Jade's supposed to lead that effort. I think it's fair to argue with the exact nature of how he's supposed to do that, but to claim CCP's intention was that he have no authority on which to lead meetings is false, as it does say in the CSM document that that is his job as Chairperson.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 20:44:00 - [217] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting. Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right? The guy who yells fire in a crowded theater doesn't do much running either, but that doesn't mean the commotion and delays caused were someone else's fault.
Christy Walton Bloodveil	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:00:00 - [218] Originally by: Jade Constantine Good heavens could you be more dramatic! Do you think my dog and goldfish are going to die next! Listen to yourself. I volunteered to an elected position on a bloody player council in a mmorpg. I muted somebody in a meeting to let a vote get counted. Now my "virtual reputation" (whatever that is) "lies in tatters" I've "lost my time" (sounds like a doctor who plot) and I've lost my gf? Though how you'd know anything about my personal life I've got no clue. Go outdoors! Smell the fresh air! Get a sense of perspective and have a beer! Go find a girlfriend and have some fun mate. shakes his head kids today honestly. Looking at the mirror Jade?
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:02:00 - [219] Further irony, Jade criticizing fellow EVE players for being 'nerdy' despite his own *******-Love-Affair-Roleplaying.
Farrqua Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:06:00 - [220] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Farrqua If Jade would have just listened more to the group and less to hear himself talk, you would have had a very short and productive meeting. Somehow I doubt if my comments in that meeting would add up to a substantial proportion of the 4hour running time. But continue with the silly troll-war. Its all getting a bit desperate. Maybe my parrot dies next right? Sir, I am not a troll nor I am trolling. Nor did I make any comments about any of you supposed real life issues or care. I am much as apart of this process as you or any one else. I am apart of the FRIGGIN player base. I am voicing my concerns and views based on what I am seeing and experiencing both here and in the damn game. You can not silence me like you mash the mute button on your fellow CSM members. Your actions speak louder than your self delusional rants. You created this mess and now you are trying to push it off to others including the player base that happen to have voted for you.

Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:11:00 - [221] Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Verone I'm genuinely concerned, because I don't feel that as a chairman, you should be silencing any member of the CSM who wants to speak and has the right to do so. Whether or not they had the right to do so is the question. It depends on whether there are rules of order or whether any CSM rep can shout whatever they want wheneve they want. If the chair's job is to lead the meeting and ensure it adheres to rules of order, then it surely is the chair's job to call for silence when participants are out of order. The question is whether there are rules of order - either implicitly or explicitly - that the participants are supposed to be abiding by. Serenity Steele may have been using a method of requesting the floor of his own devising, but all the council members should be behaving with that sort of decorum, otherwise we have the parentheticals and exclamations that get in the way of an orderly discussion where everyone has a turn to say their peace. I don't think the intention is for the CSM chamber to be a place where people shout over each other. And in the end that means someone has to be able to enforce order if the members cannot contain themselves to orderly conduct. As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
LaVista Vista Conservative Shenanigans Party	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:20:00 - [222] Originally by: Verone As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be. Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody?
Kai Wooglin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:25:00 - [223] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Verone As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be. Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody? It's exactly what Jade does so v0v
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:29:00 - [224] Originally by: Pnuka Maybe if we quote Star Fraction members that think Jade was wrong on a "number" of things he'll listen. That is Hearthstone here http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=792898 Well if you are going to quote my dear chap learn to read things before you quote K? First it's Heartstone not Hearthstone and I said he was wrong to mute her for a number of reasons not wrong on a number of things. As to the issue of wether the chair/v.chair should have the power to mute I think it is frankly pretty obvious he should indeed have this power as asking someone to be quiet and let the agenda continue without some way of making them (eventually). Having it otherwise would be akin to someone standing on top of a hill 5 miles away from a music festival shouting "Would you chaps there mind keeping it down?" In any case with the quite obvious axes to grind around here I shan't expect my words to have any affect really. Have fun damning someone who has put an insane amount of work and effort into this for not doing it the way you like shrug ---
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:34:00 - [225] Originally by: Verone As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be. Well, that's a YP not an MP.
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.06.09 21:59:00 - [226] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Verone As soon as I saw your corporate ticker I chose to disregard your post, knowing full well what it's content would be. Well, I'm sorry to ask. But isn't that a bit narrow-minded, when you are criticizing somebody? Given past experience all I've seen when I've disagreed with Jade is members under his roster blindly agreeing with him regardless of the subject when things get heated. So to answer your question, no. I don't feel it's narrow minded at all given the situation. \o/ EON FICTION WRITER OF THE YEAR! \o/ >>> THE LIFE OF AN OUTLAW <<<
Thaylon Sen Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:00:00 - [227] would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides. do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:10:00 - [228] Originally by: Thaylon Sen would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides. do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do! Probably for the best. Nobody who stood doesn't have leather for skin anyway. I'm sure it'll be handshakes and smiles at the next meeting before we on the dramallama for the next set of fun rides. Don't worry about all this froth. As long as we keep pumping through the issues we are actually doing the job. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:20:00 - [229] Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 22:20:29 The council will be able to vote for its own chair and I'll probably get to sit back and sip fine wine. But at least I'll have cat-herded some decent issues onto the agenda and made a progressive change to the constitution in the inaugural CSM. Nice, but remember those other 8 players that were also on the council and voted on those 'cat-herded' issues? Plus, you are forgetting, it isn't the CSM's or Chair's responsibility to make changes to the constitution. All such matters should be directed to CCP to make rulings on, such as alternates in meetings, muting representatives etc. You have no more power in a meeting than any other CSM representative. You can chair the meeting, but a failure of a meeting is your responsibility and no one elses. You have no rights to make 'final rulings' etc. Read the documents again, then post the passages that give you those rights. Take care, Bruce Hansen I still see you have yet to step down as Chairman, despite your election promise.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:28:00 - [230] Originally by: Arithron You have no more power in a meeting than any other CSM representative. You can chair the meeting, but a failure of a meeting is your responsibility and no one elses. You have no rights to make 'final rulings' etc. Read the documents again, then post the passages that give you those rights. Reposted from above: CCP did appoint a chair - the person with the most votes. And they charged that Chairperson with leading the meetings. Implicit in leading meetings is keeping some semblance of order and moving the discussion and agenda forward. While you suggest that the Chair has no powers, the only documentation of how the CSM is supposed to run says the Chairperson runs the meetings. It would have been nice if CCP had written detailed instructions, but they didn't. It's up to you guys to work together to keep things moving and the only instruction given is that Jade's supposed to lead that effort. I think it's fair to argue with the exact nature of how he's supposed to do that, but to claim CCP's intention was that he have no authority on which to lead meetings is false, as it does say in the CSM document that that is his job as Chairperson.

Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:33:00 - [231] Originally by: Arithron I still see you have yet to step down as Chairman, despite your election promise. Yawn. Why do you keep flogging this dead horse? I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. If it doesn't get added to the constitution I won't. Its fairly simple to understand. I want to ensure that no future CSM session will be led by a person who wins the popular vote but isn't capable of chairing meetings. If I don't get this surety then there is no purpose to resigning and I'll stand as chair for the full session. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Oncely Magnanimous Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:34:00 - [232] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Thaylon Sen would u guys all shut up and shake hands. you've ben elected by the community to represent us... not **** about with ego issues on both sides. do the job u put ur self up for and were elected to do! Probably for the best. Nobody who stood doesn't have leather for skin anyway. I'm sure it'll be handshakes and smiles at the next meeting before we on the dramallama for the next set of fun rides. Don't worry about all this froth. As long as we keep pumping through the issues we are actually doing the job. nice job with the "deflect and redirect." i've been entertained all day with a million posts about this and i still haven't seen you accept your fellow CSM's view that you acted out of line. until that happens, i think the handshakes will be in short supply. what i've read of your responses in chat logs and forum posts have been a number of excuses, deflections, redirects, personal attacks, broad sweeping generalizations about player groups, and other blather. if you really think reconciliation is the appropriate way forward, showing you have the humility to admit you were wrong might go a long way in moving on. so will you admit that you acted out of line? (this question only needs a yes or no answer, but i don't see that coming.)
Semkhet Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:35:00 - [233] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 09/06/2008 18:09:14 Originally by: Kaylana Syi But moderators don't need to do that. They do get a mute button in meetings. They can pull the room aside to make sure they are on track. There was nothing malicious about what Jade did in that log. There is something Darius JOHNSON did and that was try to undermine Jade's postition at every opportunity he could. Its pathetic. Everything he said boiled down to, "who the hell do you think you are?" The funny thing is people are complaining about the time in that log. They want to get it done. Jade muted someone who kept dragging it off topic late into the meeting. Bane even wanted it to be over. A goon. Jade decides to put the majority of the members ahead of one and gave a warning. That is what I saw. Um... nowhere is it stated any member of the CSM should be muting anyone. Least of all for having an opinion. My statement of "Who the hell are you?" stands. The chair is a meeting planner. Nothing more. It's not undermining if the actual authority doesn't exist. It doesn't. Nobody in my opinion dragged anyone off topic with the exception of Jade. Repeatedly. I don't seem to be the only person of this opinion so I feel I still have some handle on my sanity. Also... You mention Jade stating he wants to step down repeatedly... I've said repeatedly that he is well within his rights to do so. Nothing's stopping him whatsoever. You have no freakin clue. All the bodies which have decisional powers I've interacted with are chaired by an entity which has power to maintain the discussions on track according to the agenda. This include the ability to stop a useless diatribe, expel a member for the duration of the session, or even abort and postpone said session. It's done the same way from shareholder up to parliament & house sessions. the number of occurrences of sentences which had nothing or little to do with the matter at hand in these chatlogs is staggering. So IMHO Jade displayed quite a bit of restraint before acting. Anyhow, the CSM looks exactly how I was expecting it to be: a kindergarten full of overbloated egos.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:38:00 - [234] Originally by: Oncely Magnanimous so will you admit that you acted out of line? (this question only needs a yes or no answer, but i don't see that coming.) I'm going to say I made three mistakes: 1. I didn't restate the rules of discussion and debate in the meeting at the beginning. 2. I should have simply copy and pasted the vote intro's. 3. I should have taken a direct judgment on the simple majority thing (and should have known in advance what the doc said) For that stuff I'm happy to apologize and say I'll do better next time. But on the issue of muting a member of the council after 3 warnings in order to protect the process of a vote - absolutely not. I stand by that decision 100% and would do it again. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:50:00 - [235] Yawn. Why do you keep flogging this dead horse? I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. If it doesn't get added to the constitution I won't. Its fairly simple to understand. I want to ensure that no future CSM session will be led by a person who wins the popular vote but isn't capable of chairing meetings. If I don't get this surety then there is no purpose to resigning and I'll stand as chair for the full session This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done. Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair? I also see that Agenda item 4 (Science and industry) had the voting before discussion and during it. Can you, as chairman, please explain clearly and concisely what the vote for this item was for and what forum posts we can expect to see in regard to the issues listed in the volumous pdf document? take care, Bruce Hansen
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:51:00 - [236] Originally by: Arithron This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done. I've told you what I said. And thats precisely what I am doing. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:53:00 - [237] Originally by: Arithron You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair? Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:55:00 - [238] Edited by: Goumindong on 09/06/2008 22:56:47 Originally by: Kelsin Originally by: Arithron You have now put conditions on standing down as Chair? Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Arithron This issue keeps coming up because it's something you said you'd do before being elected, and now haven't done. I've told you what I said. And thats precisely what I am doing. You deflected the question with irrelevant information. You didn't promise to look at the CSM document and then attempt to change it. You promised to step down if you had that position and then let the council elect its own. You failed to meet that promise. I mean, how hard is it. You said you would do something and when the time came you didn't do it.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 22:59:00 - [239] Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages?
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:00:00 - [240] Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link?

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:04:00 - [241] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link? Probably not. Not all of them were recorded. Notice how Jade isn't saying she didn't say it. If you want to look in archives of this thread he was called out on it. You will notice in that thread Jade did not say he did not make the claim. Only refused to do it.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:04:00 - [242] You can ask Jade, since he isn't denying stating that he'd stand down as chairman Take care, Bruce Hansen
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:06:00 - [243] Originally by: Arithron Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages? Lol, seriously, only way it can be done is for us to raise an issue on the topic (as I've done with the electable chair proposal) we'll present it to CCP and ask if we can do it. If they say yes "its done". If that happens I'll set down and we'll have an elected chair immediately. I really don't understand where you are going with this line of questioning. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:09:00 - [244] Originally by: Arithron You can ask Jade, since he isn't denying stating that he'd stand down as chairman Take care, Bruce Hansen As far as I know there is no recording or mp3 or whatnot. It was an open vent session when I said I felt the CSM should have an elected chair and if I got elected I'd lobby to get the constitution changed issue raise->ccp agreed. I got asked - what if you win and become chairman? I said I'd still push for the measure and step down for re-election when it was done. Others have tried to make an issue of this. But really there is no issue. I'm intending to do what I said I'd do and try my best to get this measure though. If I can't get it through then I have absolutely no intention of resigning and I will stand as chair for the session regardless. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:12:00 - [245] Actually, you are supposed to be presenting to CCP PLAYER issues, not CSM constitution ones. You seem to make decisions in meetings and through votes that WILL NOT be put to CCP. This, frankly, is an abuse of power by the CSM, and not its purpose. CSM mechanisms, if in doubt, should be clarified through CCP directly, not group decisions by the Chair and representatives. Before clarification, if it takes some time to come, you should be guided by the CSM documents...which give you no rights to change/decide/propose alterations of the CSM constitution. Besides, any issue that is discussed and voted upon MUST be put to the players via the threads for 7 days... Bruce Hansen
Bane Glorious GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:13:00 - [246] Originally by: Kelsin Edited by: Kelsin on 09/06/2008 23:00:49 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc. Oh, so it's posted as an mp3 or something somewhere? Link? http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777318&page=1#17 Originally by: Jade Constantine Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. But for now we will follow the process we signed up to follow - hence I'm organizing the vote for the positions currently electable on the CSM (Vice-chair, Secretary, Vice-Secretary) according to the existing constitution. ... I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. He did at one point say he would step down, but changed his mind. Not that there is anything saying he can't go back on an off-handed comment on his own ventrilo server.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:14:00 - [247] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Arithron Again, I ask you where the passages are that give you the right to change the CSM constitution? I see NO evidence of submission of CSM constitution stuff to CCP for rulings, just proposals and votes in the CSM meetings. Still managing to avoid this one, since its proving a little harder than you thought to find those passages? Lol, seriously, only way it can be done is for us to raise an issue on the topic (as I've done with the electable chair proposal) we'll present it to CCP and ask if we can do it. If they say yes "its done". If that happens I'll set down and we'll have an elected chair immediately. I really don't understand where you are going with this line of questioning. No, seriously. The CSM document clearly states that the Chairman can step down and the council can elect a new chairman. The "way" it happens is if you buck up and step down like you claimed. Do i have to get the quote and the page for you like we've had show you the chatlogs proving you are wrong in the primary matter of this thread?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:28:00 - [248] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 23:28:51 Originally by: Arithron Actually, you are supposed to be presenting to CCP PLAYER issues, not CSM constitution ones. You seem to make decisions in meetings and through votes that WILL NOT be put to CCP. This, frankly, is an abuse of power by the CSM, and not its purpose. CSM mechanisms, if in doubt, should be clarified through CCP directly, not group decisions by the Chair and representatives. Before clarification, if it takes some time to come, you should be guided by the CSM documents...which give you no rights to change/decide/propose alterations of the CSM constitution. Besides, any issue that is discussed and voted upon MUST be put to the players via the threads for 7 days... Bruce Hansen It was CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:34:00 - [249] Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 23:36:20 Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. I'm also asking for the written evidence that allows the CSM to vote on these matters at all. You have produced no evidence regarding CCP rulings on any matters regarding CSM constitution changes or CSM meetings etc. Bruce Hansen
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:39:00 - [250] Originally by: Arithron Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. Indeed and herein lies the problem as I've expressed elsewhere I feel that the CSM shouldn't have to spend all it's time trying to piece together a way for it to work and should in fact be discussing the issues that matter to us. Who is at fault in the end? Well i don't think it's Jade, I don't think it's Darius or Ank or any other CSM member I think the problem lies entirely with CCPs inability to organise it properly in the first place. ---

Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:49:00 - [251] Or the inability of the CSM to actually ask CCP for rulings and guidance on these matters. Instead, they chose to act outside their scope entirely.... Bruce Hansen
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:51:00 - [252] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 09/06/2008 23:53:02 Originally by: Arithron Edited by: Arithron on 09/06/2008 23:36:20 Actually, I was referring to other CSM issues apart from the chairman one...such as alternates/abstaining etc. I'm also asking for the written evidence that allows the CSM to vote on these matters at all. You have produced no evidence regarding CCP rulings on any matters regarding CSM constitution changes or CSM meetings etc. Bruce Hansen Thats because we're making it up as we go along Arithron. Sorry but there it is. I mean we could have met first time and said: "what shall we do?" "dunno" "Ummm what should we do?" "dunno" "How should we handle all this stuff?" "dunno" "We know! lets ask CCP!" "meeting adjourned" "drinks on me! Great meeting everyone!" (next meeting) "So what did they say?" "umm nothing really" "What?" "Yeah they said its all in the documentation" "Umm" "What?" "Lets ask for clarification!" "excellent meeting adjourned!" "Great meeting guys Drinks on me!" Instead we opted yes, to make it up as we went along and try and score the win condition of taking a bunch of issues to Iceland from a running start with 3 weeks and a bunch of forum trolling to put up with. End of the day we're going make that win condition and I for one am pretty happy to say to the electorate that they made the right choice to elect some can-do grifters in the role rather than a bunch of people who wouldn't dare take a move without everything signed and sealed in triplicate with the favorable entrails of a dove and the blessing of a local clergyman. Have we made mistakes? hell yes. Have we at least got something done hell yes. Lets have a big drink of glass half full here and look on the bright side you bunch of moody so-and-sos! CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:55:00 - [253] Originally by: Bane Glorious http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777318&page=1#17 Originally by: Jade Constantine Morning everyone! Yep, I decided after consultation that the best route forward if I actually want to change the constitution from making the chairman position an automatic post to an elected post was to function as stand-in chairman initially and propose a measure myself for the agenda. This proposal is going to need the seven-day discussion period and 5/9 CSM votes to make the formal agenda for Iceland (as does any other measure). Anybody that desires further debate on that subject is welcome to contribute on the topic when it's formally-raised in the appropriate forum section. But for now we will follow the process we signed up to follow - hence I'm organizing the vote for the positions currently electable on the CSM (Vice-chair, Secretary, Vice-Secretary) according to the existing constitution. ... I've chosen to follow the agreed process for making changes to the constitution. He did at one point say he would step down, but changed his mind. Not that there is anything saying he can't go back on an off-handed comment on his own ventrilo server. So every record of Jade's position on this is consistent, except for the one recounted by an unknown person who heard it differently late one night?
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.09 23:59:00 - [254] Who are you calling a moody so-and-so? I think you do a disservice to those candidates who were unsuccessful by suggesting that they would have not applied themselves diligently to the job as most of the CSM representatives have done. Your assertions regarding CCP are frankly unfair, as you did have a CCP member in your first meeting where you could have put CSM mechanism specifics to get clarification. Besides, I am sure they would have given requests from the CSM on CSM matters good thought and prompt response. It still gives the CSM no right to 'make things up' and step outside their remit, as specified in the CSM documentation. That was an error I am glad to see you have finally admitted to. Thank you. Time for the CSM to send a mail to CCP regarding some CSM mechanism questions and Constitutional matters eh? Take care, Bruce Hansen
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:05:00 - [255] Originally by: Arithron Your assertions regarding CCP are frankly unfair, as you did have a CCP member in your first meeting where you could have put CSM mechanism specifics to get clarification. Besides, I am sure they would have given requests from the CSM on CSM matters good thought and prompt response. I don't believe that they are that unfair to be honest as the communications from CCP in regards to what was asked of them to do by the CSM were all along the lines of "Soon" which is hardly the mark of an organisation going out of it's way to help things along. Originally by: CSM#3 Jade Constantine > Okay Jade Constantine > I wrote to CCP Jade Constantine > and they told me in response Jade Constantine > 1. the colour bars are supposed to be happening (soon) Dierdra Vaal > (tm) Jade Constantine > 2. the csm forum is in progress but also not ready Inanna Zuni > "(soon" ahuh ... Jade Constantine > 3. the publishing of minutes has been delayed also and its their fault not Anks Jade Constantine > so pass their apologies Jade Constantine > thats the conclusion of that item Quote: It still gives the CSM no right to 'make things up' and step outside their remit, as specified in the CSM documentation. That was an error I am glad to see you have finally admitted to. Thank you. Unfortuntly some of these matters needed asking as there were no guidelines. But yes it certainly shouldn't be the CSM who is doing this. Quote: Time for the CSM to send a mail to CCP regarding some CSM mechanism questions and Constitutional matters eh? Agreed here's hoping that the response given is better than the responses given so far. ---
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:14:00 - [256] Originally by: Arithron Who are you calling a moody so-and-so? You actually. You've stalked these forums for the last three weeks like some kind of morbid vulture picking holes and singing songs of doom and gloom and anytime anybody actually tries to engage with you they get more carping criticism and nit-picking leaving the poor respondent wondering they bothered in the first place. I've tried to explain the situation to you but you still insist on trying to blame and whine and complain about whats been done over the course of three weeks of frenetic struggle to get this show on the road. At this stage Arithron though I'm deeply tempted to tell you where to get off I'm still going to advise my fellow CSM reps to try and reach middle ground with you on these multi-item issues, but I'm going ask you in turn to shelve the pettifoggery for long enough to see we are actually trying to work with you here and do the best we can do. But if you can't do that well, nobody can say I didn't try. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:17:00 - [257] Why is it always somebody else's fault, Jade?
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:18:00 - [258] Originally by: Kaylana Syi 3) Darius JOHNSON stop being an instigating **er. You are so transparent its not even funny. Bears repeating. Can't believe you're on your high horse here, Darius. Sort your own act out before throwing stones please. Frankly though, the blame lies at the feet of all the CSM reps for the problems in this meeting. I think it also bears repeating that things were achieved in this meeting, despite the difficulties.** That actually augurs well for the CSM. Things can improve, certainly. I'm confident they will. But that things were still done in these, the most trying of times, suggests that when things sort themselves out, the CSM will get a great deal done, and may just turn out to be a vehicle for positive change. I realise drama is the lifeblood of eve, but try and keep some perspective people.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:19:00 - [259] Originally by: Anton Marvik Why is it always somebody else's fault, Jade? Why do you feel the need to troll every thread this evening? Its one of those perennial questions of the human condition isn't it? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:20:00 - [260] Originally by: Jade Constantine Why do you feel the need to troll every thread this evening? Its one of those perennial questions of the human condition isn't it? Are we back to trolls and goon conspiracy?

Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:25:00 - [261] Originally by: Anton Marvik Are we back to trolls and goon conspiracy? To be fair I think conspiracy is pushing it just a tad too far when you look at your posting history today. Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people. So yeah I think the troll words fits in pretty well here. Post somethign constructive with even a hint of middle ground and you might find people more willing to give your words some credence. ---
Dippin Dots	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:26:00 - [262] It is clear that CCP did not hand you a constitution by which you are intended to funciton, and that is most likely intentional, merely some suggestions/guidelines. Just look at the game and how it is played, you are the first set of elected representatives. It is your job to serve as the "founding fathers" and write the constitution. If you did that, worked together and wrote the basic outline of the constitution, selected your rules of operating procedure yourselves *and followed it* -- and when you met with CCP insisted that they recognise your player designed constitution formed by player elected representatives, they would really have no choice but to recognise it (outside of course, the actions of one 'government' (CCP) choosing not to recognise another government (the CSM) just as happens in "real world politics" (mainland China throwing their weight around to discourage, for example, the USA to not recognise the government of Tiwan officially)). I'd like to add that up until I read this thread I was on a trial account, and for some madhouse reason this actually made me want to activate my account. You have a huge opportunity here to form a player goverment in a very very political game. In all honesty, there is no reason this could not have been done before entirely on the will of the players alone without CCP saying you could do it (with of course the dubious question looming about voting/vote validity, but thats really no different than any "real world" government).
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 - [263] Welcome to Eve, Dippin.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 - [264] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 00:30:39 Originally by: Heartstone To be fair I think conspiracy is pushing it just a tad too far I thought so too, let Jade know. Originally by: Heartstone Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people. If reality annoys you. Originally by: Heartstone Post somethign constructive with even a hint of middle ground and you might find people more willing to give your words some credence. I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:41:00 - [265] Originally by: Anton Marvik If reality annoys you. Oh it doesn't annoy me in the least actually it is just the intention I was looking at. Quote: I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me. Hmm getting people to agree to what they already agree to isn't a trick. Getting people to listen to what you say and alter their opinion or at least make them think is rather the point and I don't think that you've really done that with the way you have gone about it today which was more my point. You are assuing Jade of simply not lending weight to your words becuase he disagrees but you have been doin the same all day since hat thread came into being. In anycase I hope tomorrow brings about a few more cooler heads and a few less tantrums on these forums (not that I am holding my breath on that one ;) ) ---
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:43:00 - [266] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 00:44:13 Originally by: Heartstone Hmm getting people to agree to what they already agree to isn't a trick. Getting people to listen to what you say and alter their opinion or at least make them think is rather the point and I don't think that you've really done that with the way you have gone about it today which was more my point. I don't wish to change people's minds or alter their opinions. I don't have an agenda like yourself. Plenty of people came to the realization that Jade is out of control on their own. Originally by: Heartstone You are assuing Jade of simply not lending weight to your words becuase he disagrees but you have been doin the same all day since hat thread came into being. Either that or he really believes the goon conspiracy tripe in which case he is mentally ill.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:44:00 - [267] Originally by: Anton Marvik I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me. Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:46:00 - [268] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. You've already shown that you love no less than punishing those who disagree with you. I appreciate the fodder, however.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 00:53:00 - [269] Edited by: Heartstone on 10/06/2008 00:55:46 Originally by: Anton Marvik I don't wish to change people's minds or alter their opinions. I don't have an agenda like yourself. Plenty of people came to the realization that Jade is out of control on their own. No offense but I am unsure of your reason for posting then. Do you simply wish to see your words on the forums? Surely the whole point of the Forums is to encourage deabte and discussion which is obviously partly about altering people's opinions to an extent. As for you not having an agenda well it's quite clear you do as you posted an issue thread for such an item ;) I certainly do have an agenda. I wish the CSM to work. I believe CCP is at fault in the main for the problems with the CSM and I think flaming Jade continutally doesn't help to make things better. Of course being in Star Fraction, I know Jade personally and don't like to see him insulted and called things that are untrue but I will live with it as he will. As for being out of control i think half the problem as stated by Cosmo on another thread somewhere is that people don't seem to realise how much control a Chairman should be exerting on a commitee. That is of course nobodies fault as not many people have experience on serving as a chairman of a commitee. In any case the chairman's control or lack thereof is still a matter that should have been address by CCP in a properly prepared document rather than left to the first commitee to figure out for themselves. I realise many people don't like restrictive rules and in most things neither do I but a commitee without a solid structure and control by a chairperson does not work and I would rather like to see this particualr commitee succeed. /me goes to bed before he has to be up again. ---
Erik Amirault GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:00:00 - [270] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I believe that removing you from your ship and podding you repeatedly until your clone had so few skillpoints you couldn't reliably speak caldari without a phrasebook would be constructive too but we can't have everything we want. I guess we both need to get used to living with disappointment. That was probably the least threatening threat and the wussiest burn in the history of Eve online.

Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:00:00 - [271] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 01:01:44 Originally by: Heartstone I wish the CSM to work. That makes two of us. Originally by: Heartstone I think flaming Jade continutally doesn't help to make things better. If quoting Jade and, ironically, editorializing said quotes is "flaming". Originally by: Heartstone As for being out of control i think half the problem as stated by Cosmo on another thread somewhere is that people don't seem to realise how much control a Chairman should be exerting on a commitee. When you appeal to authority make sure its not someone who "knows Jade personally and don't like to see him insulted." Originally by: Heartstone In any case the chairman's control or lack thereof is still a matter that should have been address by CCP in a properly prepared document rather than left to the first commitee to figure out for themselves. The chairperson is responsible to the playerbase, not just CCP, as are all CSM reps. Originally by: Heartstone I realise many people don't like restrictive rules and in most things neither do I but a commitee without a solid structure and control by a chairperson does not work and I would rather like to see this particualr commitee succeed. The point of the majority of my "insulting" posts was to explain why I and others take issue with Jade's actions during the meeting and since. Perhaps you should try reading them again as you missed the point. In fact, the majority of criticisms directed toward Jade aren't about the rules, or lack there of, but rather his own actions during the meeting and after.
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:02:00 - [272] Originally by: Erik Amirault That was probably the least threatening threat and the wussiest burn in the history of Eve online. "You mildly irritate me and your presence in a local channel that includes me may cause me to frown a bit" How's that? I really should work on my threats. I knew there was a reason I didn't become a pirate ;) /me really is going to bed now. ---
shuckstar Hauling hogs CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:24:00 - [273] Originally by: Anton Marvik Edited by: Anton Marvik on 10/06/2008 00:30:39 I believe removing Jade from Chair is constructive. I believe it is to the benefit of CSM and many people agree with me. Furthermore, plenty of people are willing to give my words credence, Jade simply doesn't because my position is different from his, fortunately he is in no position to mute me. Thumbs up
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:34:00 - [274] Originally by: Heartstone Almost all of it is abrasive comments aimed at Jade with no actual content other than that designed to annoy people. Bull. You will see people give a middle ground when there is a middle ground to give. When Jade lies and refuses to acknowledge the facts of the case he will get called on it. If you are complaining that he is called on it then maybe you should talk to Jade about his habitual lying, ad hominem, strawman, and ignoring of all points which might damage whatever it is he supports. We are long past the point where we can present new evidence and arguments. We have presented them in spades and all that has been done is for Jade to ignore them, lie about them, ad hominem them, and strawman them.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:36:00 - [275] Originally by: Goumindong We are long past the point where we can present new evidence and arguments. We have presented them in spades and all that has been done is for Jade to ignore them, lie about them, ad hominem them, and strawman them. This basically sums it up at this point. I never thought I'd be on Goum's side of an argument but there it is.
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:42:00 - [276] Dearest Goum, When are you going to get around to lengthy and irate derision of Darius for the part he clearly played in this mess? I mean, if you're calling people on their behavior in some apparently non-partisan way and holding them to account for their actions, I assume that's on your agenda also?
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:48:00 - [277] Originally by: Kai Zion Dearest Goum, When are you going to get around to lengthy and irate derision of Darius for the part he clearly played in this mess? I mean, if you're calling people on their behavior in some apparently non-partisan way and holding them to account for their actions, I assume that's on your agenda also? Darius muted Ianna, editorialized CSM decisions, then flipped out and said that those criticizing him were part of some conspiracy to destroy the CSM rather than accepting responsibility? Please.
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:53:00 - [278] Dear me. I'm pointing out what appears to be double standards, when Goonswarm members lambast Jade whilst silently letting Darius off the hook for the part he played in this mess. Your counter to this observation is to continue that very behavior? Yeah, well played.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 01:55:00 - [279] Originally by: Kai Zion I'm pointing out what appears to be double standards, when Goonswarm members lambast Jade whilst silently letting Darius off the hook for the part he played in this mess. What part? You have access to the log. Lets see some quotes. Although you may wish to start your own thread as this one is clearly about Jade's actions (Read the title of the thread).
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.06.10 02:07:00 - [280] You've been doing some selective reading if you don't know what I'm talking about. If you want to see the quotes, then someone in one of these threads compiled a list of them where he was pretty clearly "instigating". Rather than address the problem, however, Goonswarm member/s just dismissed the person as an SF Alt. That's the very same treatment Goum here is complaining to Jade about. You going to admonish your own people for acting in a way you've complained to Jade about, Goum? Or is this just a case of double standards? When I raise the issue myself, it's dismissed once more and labelled "not a real issue" and "anti-goon bias". Again, more double standards here or what? I think I'll leave it there, you seemingly don't have the capacity to meet the issue, and I wasn't even addressing you in the first place. I'll let the man speak for himself.

Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 02:08:00 - [281] Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas? I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better.
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:19:00 - [282] This entire CSM is like a puppet show with Jade dancing around and Darius carefully pulling his strings. It really is quiet amusing. Especially when you get to hear about the emails.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 20:55:00 - [283] Originally by: Dippin Dots I'd like to add that up until I read this thread I was on a trial account, and for some madhouse reason this actually made me want to activate my account. I love it. Welcome to Eve Dippin!
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:03:00 - [284] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas? I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better. Way to swallow the cool-aid. Goons and Darius in specific are transparent as air on this forum. Mr. JOHNSON was playing the righteous instigator from the start and especially at the tail end of that meeting. How many times did he bait Jade near the end? Three times at least. The double standards applied in this thread could win a trophy.
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:04:00 - [285] Originally by: Jade Constantine But on the issue of muting a member of the council after 3 warnings in order to protect the process of a vote - absolutely not. I stand by that decision 100% and would do it again. "3"???? Even you cannot ignore that you only twice purported to silence me when I asked a question, surely? And please do not say it was to "protect" a vote when none were in progress. Really ... IZ My principles
Inanna Zuni The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:07:00 - [286] SIDEBAR Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kelsin Arithron where did you see this conditionless promise to stand down as Chair if elected? I don't see it anywhere, are you sure about that? It was in one of the live/chats interviews iirc This is actually the very best reason why, no matter that it was very imperfect (especially used in a single-channel format) that a text-chat channel is the best option for meetings; voice recordings suffer from noise, lack of random access, lack of timestamps that all have equal access to, etc. IZ My principles
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:19:00 - [287] Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 21:20:02 Originally by: Kis Kecheri Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas? I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better. Way to swallow the cool-aid. Goons and Darius in specific are transparent as air on this forum. Mr. JOHNSON was playing the righteous instigator from the start and especially at the tail end of that meeting. How many times did he bait Jade near the end? Three times at least. The double standards applied in this thread could win a trophy. I am sorry i must have missed that, can you please point out these baits and why they were unjustified considering Jades prior action and disregard for the legitimacy of the council?(which has already been documented)
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:33:00 - [288] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 21:20:02 Originally by: Kis Kecheri Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 10/06/2008 02:08:45 Darius's comments have always been towards the actions that the chair has taken to expand its power outside the scope of the CSM document. Are you are saying that it is right and proper to sit by and let the Chairman expand its power so that it can push through partisan agendas? I suppose the meeting would have gone smoother had no one objected to Jades usurpation of power and corruption of the position of chairman by using it as a bludgeon to get what he wanted. But i doubt that the outcome of the process would have been better. Way to swallow the cool-aid. Goons and Darius in specific are transparent as air on this forum. Mr. JOHNSON was playing the righteous instigator from the start and especially at the tail end of that meeting. How many times did he bait Jade near the end? Three times at least. The double standards applied in this thread could win a trophy. I am sorry i must have missed that, can you please point out these baits [ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE! [ 2008.06.08 21:54:29 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well the meeting's not over, so what happened will be included whether you like it or not [ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool [ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you? [ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on Anyone thinking clearly will see that these are emotionally charged baits for Jade to get hooked on and drag the meeting further into a conflict. They add nothing constructive to the meeting or the topic. Go ahead Goumindong, spin away. I'm sure you will find someway to warp this around.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:47:00 - [289] Originally by: Kis Kecheri [ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE! [ 2008.06.08 21:54:29 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well the meeting's not over, so what happened will be included whether you like it or not [ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool [ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you? [ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on Anyone thinking clearly will see that these are emotionally charged baits for Jade to get hooked on and drag the meeting further into a conflict. They add nothing constructive to the meeting or the topic. Go ahead Goumindong, spin away. I'm sure you will find someway to warp this around. Nothing to spin. One of these comments was not directed at Jade and the rest are quite clearly responses to Jade's unauthorized disenfranchisement of an elected representative. Really the comments are quite tame in comparison to what the situation deserved. Really I don't see why anyone would bring up comments made in RESPONSE to the topic of this thread unless the desire was to deflect from the issue at hand.
The MapMaker	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:50:00 - [290] Originally by: Kis Kecheri [ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE! [ 2008.06.08 21:54:29 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well the meeting's not over, so what happened will be included whether you like it or not [ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool [ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you? [ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on Anyone thinking clearly will see that these are emotionally charged baits for Jade to get hooked on and drag the meeting further into a conflict. They add nothing constructive to the meeting or the topic. Go ahead Goumindong, spin away. I'm sure you will find someway to warp this around. You're quoting Darius opposing Jade's conduct? Multiple CSM members have taken issue with Jade's very controversial actions during that meeting so I don't see how an "emotionally charged" response can be viewed as unreasonable- espectially from the candidate who has been the most active in keeping the current chairman's presumptions of power in check and advocated for equality in the powers of all CSM members.

Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:51:00 - [291] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 21:53:18 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Kis Kecheri [ 2008.06.08 21:46:20 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well she DID get two OFFICIAL WARNINGS [ 2008.06.08 21:46:29 ] Darius JOHNSON >Maybe the channel is enforcing RULE! [ 2008.06.08 21:54:29 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well the meeting's not over, so what happened will be included whether you like it or not [ 2008.06.08 21:58:21 ]Darius JOHNSON >Well it's cool, just mute them next time you don't like what they're saying and we'll be cool [ 2008.06.08 22:01:24 ]Darius JOHNSON >So what? Who the hell are you? [ 2008.06.08 22:02:43 ]Darius JOHNSON >Let's just mute everyone and move on Anyone thinking clearly will see that these are emotionally charged baits for Jade to get hooked on and drag the meeting further into a conflict. They add nothing constructive to the meeting or the topic. Go ahead Goumindong, spin away. I'm sure you will find someway to warp this around. Nothing to spin. One of these comments was not directed at Jade and the rest are quite clearly responses to Jade's unauthorized disenfranchisement of an elected representative. Really the comments are quite tame in comparison to what the situation deserved. Really I don't see why anyone would bring up comments made in RESPONSE to the topic of this thread unless the desire was to deflect from the issue at hand. How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" Quote: You're quoting Darius opposing Jade's conduct? Multiple CSM members have taken issue with Jade's very controversial actions during that meeting so I don't see how an "emotionally charged" response can be viewed as unreasonable- espectially from the candidate who has been the most active in keeping the current chairman's presumptions of power in check and advocated for equality in the powers of all CSM members Sorry, you don't get a free pass to make outbursts to bait the room into even more conflict just because you feel emotionally justified. No meeting needs or requires a "Righteous Instigator" to drag it into the mud.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:52:00 - [292] You actually. You've stalked these forums for the last three weeks like some kind of morbid vulture picking holes and singing songs of doom and gloom and anytime anybody actually tries to engage with you they get more carping criticism and nit-picking leaving the poor respondent wondering they bothered in the first place. I've tried to explain the situation to you but you still insist on trying to blame and whine and complain about whats been done over the course of three weeks of frenetic struggle to get this show on the road. At this stage Arithron though I'm deeply tempted to tell you where to get off I'm still going to advise my fellow CSM reps to try and reach middle ground with you on these multi-item issues, but I'm going ask you in turn to shelve the pettifoggery for long enough to see we are actually trying to work with you here and do the best we can do. I feel I must reply to such a personal attack, which I feel is totally out of order and not in keeping with your supposedly high standards of societal duties that CSM reprsentatives are supposed to have. How have I stalked the forums? I have brought up issues that affect the players of EVE. I have always been polite, non-personal and non-insulting. Everything I have raised has been backed up via CSM documentation or POSTED forum comments. You clearly have mistaken me for someone else 'singing songs of doom and gloom'! I want the CSM to work...I stood remember, and will be doing so again next time around. Maybe you take players pointing out the guidelines and rules personally? I can't apologise for that, since I have never attacked anyone personally. You don't need to work with me, you need to work FOR me and all the other 220,000 players that you represent. The issue I raised regarding multiple issues as one post and vote affects everyone. If my concern for due process and rules concerns you, again I can't apologise- someone needs to raise these issues and highlight the areas of concern. Take care, Bruce Hansen
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:53:00 - [293] Originally by: Kis Kecheri How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" So categorize them as "OUTBURSTS". I won't be losing any sleep over it. I'll instead be concerned about things that matter... such as council members being able to speak.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 21:58:00 - [294] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Kis Kecheri How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" So categorize them as "OUTBURSTS". I won't be losing any sleep over it. I'll instead be concerned about things that matter... such as council members being able to speak. I'm sure you won't. Transparent as glass my friend. The CSM is a delicate boat and everyone is more then happy to grab a rope and pull. The chance to entertain themselves watching it capsize is too compelling.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:00:00 - [295] Originally by: Kis Kecheri How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" A man in a crowded theater yells "plural N word, there is a fire". There are many appropriate responses for this. One of which is to run, another of which is to object to the use of offensive language. Neither of these qualify as "furthering the discussion" and all might be considered "outbursts" You are walking down the street, and a man next to you get stabbed. "Holy ****, call the police" is an "outburst", but it is also a clearly an appropriate response. Many times when someone does something outside of the rules, appropriate responses certainly include actions that do not further the discussion. Another example, closer to home. Responses that are /signed with a thumbs up in the Assembly Hall are not discussion, but since the assembly hall is a place where players are to voice their opinion, its an entirely acceptable response.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:06:00 - [296] Originally by: Kis Kecheri I'm sure you won't. Transparent as glass my friend. The CSM is a delicate boat and everyone is more then happy to grab a rope and pull. The chance to entertain themselves watching it capsize is too compelling. Transparent? Try honest. Its actions were deplorable. They will continue to be. I'm not going to deny or act as if that doesn't bother me. It does and it's wrong. v0v if that's a bad thing in your eyes then so be it.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:08:00 - [297] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kis Kecheri How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" A man in a crowded theater yells "plural N word, there is a fire". There are many appropriate responses for this. One of which is to run, another of which is to object to the use of offensive language. Neither of these qualify as "furthering the discussion" and all might be considered "outbursts" You are walking down the street, and a man next to you get stabbed. "Holy ****, call the police" is an "outburst", but it is also a clearly an appropriate response. Many times when someone does something outside of the rules, appropriate responses certainly include actions that do not further the discussion. Another example, closer to home. Responses that are /signed with a thumbs up in the Assembly Hall are not discussion, but since the assembly hall is a place where players are to voice their opinion, its an entirely acceptable response. Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already Outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now.
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:12:00 - [298] I'm still having a hard time understanding how Jade can maintain that he is in the right through all of this. Jade do you honestly think that avoiding tricky questions and passing the blame lends credence to your massive walls of words?
Stahlregen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:16:00 - [299] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:10:48 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:10:19 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:09:25 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kis Kecheri How are those "responses" !? Clearly those do not add anything contructive to any topic or the flow of the meeting AT ALL. In addition, qualifying them as "tame" doesn't mitigate the fact of what they are. Flame bait. They are hooks for someone to catch and pull them into an emotionally charged conflict. You can't spin out of that. Those are not "RESPONSES", they can only be categorized as "OUTBURSTS" A man in a crowded theater yells "plural N word, there is a fire". There are many appropriate responses for this. One of which is to run, another of which is to object to the use of offensive language. Neither of these qualify as "furthering the discussion" and all might be considered "outbursts" You are walking down the street, and a man next to you get stabbed. "Holy **, call the police" is an "outburst", but it is also a clearly an appropriate response. Many times when someone does something outside of the rules, appropriate responses certainly include actions that do not further the discussion. Another example, closer to home. Responses that are /signed with a thumbs up in the Assembly Hall are not discussion, but since the assembly hall is a place where players are to voice their opinion, its an entirely acceptable response. Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now. Quote:** Transparent? Try honest. Its actions were deplorable. They will continue to be. I'm not going to deny or act as if that doesn't bother me. It does and it's wrong. v0v if that's a bad thing in your eyes then so be it. Again, you act like your comments could solve or sooth something. Those were obviously ment to drag the council into MORE INFIGHTING. It really doesn't matter how emotionally justified you feel you were. Constructive or solutions to problems they were not. It's previously been said that what Darius should really do is act completely submissive and let Jade do whatever the hell he wants .
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:19:00 - [300] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Again, you act like your comments could solve or sooth something. Those were obviously ment to drag the council into MORE INFIGHTING. It really doesn't matter how emotionally justified you feel you were. Constructive or solutions to problems they were not. Where did I say that? They were clearly meant to be durogatory to Jade. I never said otherwise. Jade broke the council by disenfranchising an elected representative. I responded in a semi-ugly fashion. Unlike Jade I can accept responsibility for my actions and will say that wasn't very professional. I will also add that the comments wouldn't have occurred if it hadn't broken the council process by bullying yet another council member. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, but I'm not denying anything... I had pushed for this and ALL communications to be completely public. I know when I say something it'll be read by everyone. I have nothing to hide whatsoever.

Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:19:00 - [301] Originally by: Stahlregen I'm still having a hard time understanding how Jade can maintain that he is in the right through all of this. Jade do you honestly think that avoiding tricky questions and passing the blame lends credence to your massive walls of words? I'm sure if you keep attacking he will eventually change his mind, resign from the chair, and cry in a corner. Wait, no he won't. He already said his peace and probably is going to focus on the next meeting to try and stay above the crap that everyone likes to sling. Mob politics is too brute.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:20:00 - [302] Originally by: Stahlregen It's previously been said that what Darius should really do is act completely submissive and let Jade do whatever the hell he wants . Thats right, beat that strawman. Ow, I beat he felt that one.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:26:00 - [303] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Kis Kecheri Again, you act like your comments could solve or sooth something. Those were obviously ment to drag the council into MORE INFIGHTING. It really doesn't matter how emotionally justified you feel you were. Constructive or solutions to problems they were not. Where did I say that? They were clearly meant to be durogatory to Jade. I never said otherwise. Jade broke the council by disenfranchising an elected representative. I responded in a semi-ugly fashion. Unlike Jade I can accept responsibility for my actions and will say that wasn't very professional. I will also add that the comments wouldn't have occurred if it hadn't broken the council process by bullying yet another council member. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, but I'm not denying anything... I had pushed for this and ALL communications to be completely public. I know when I say something it'll be read by everyone. I have nothing to hide whatsoever. Don't get me wrong Darius. I voted for you because I like your poltics. This isn't an attack on your person, its a counter-attack on the people attacking Jade for hypocritically stated reasons. The chairman needs power and the will to use it. People can debate the fine line all day but what people are currently flametraining is a point were anyone in Jades shoes is going to be expected to carry the burden of getting meetings done, on time, but with no real power. Or with limited power that it is afraid to use because the 'power-abuse' witch hunters come crawling out of the woodwork to beat him down.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:29:00 - [304] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Don't get me wrong Darius. I voted for you because I like your poltics. This isn't an attack on your person, its a counter-attack on the people attacking Jade for hypocritically stated reasons. The chairman needs power and the will to use it. People can debate the fine line all day but what people are currently flametraining is a point were anyone in Jades shoes is going to be expected to carry the burden of getting meetings done, on time, but with no real power. Or with limited power that it is afraid to use because the 'power-abuse' witch hunters come crawling out of the woodwork to beat him down. Had I been saying those things you quoted out of turn and been muted for that I'd have agreed with you. Unfortunately in this case I believe the 'power-abuse' witch hunters are correct. Really the logs speak for themselves.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:32:00 - [305] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now. Its not apples and oranges. Do you not believe that standing up for the rights of disenfranchised representatives is the thing you ought to do when someone runs roughshod over the rights of another? The analogies are fitting enough.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:44:00 - [306] Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:45:31 Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 10/06/2008 22:44:44 Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kis Kecheri Not really interested in comparing apples and oranges Goum. Already had lunch. Again, you can't spin when Darius has admited that those were already flaming outbursts. All thats left is to downplay them like he is doing now. Its not apples and oranges. Do you not believe that standing up for the rights of disenfranchised representatives is the thing you ought to do when someone runs roughshod over the rights of another? The analogies are fitting enough. Depends what you mean by 'standing up'. Nothing I quoted could be construed to be working toward that goal. It wasn't even criticism, it was just bait to start a mud fight. Since you like analogies I'll give you one. Suppose someone accidentally hit your dog with a car and was bleeding internally. It needs to get to the vet. Instead you drag the driver out of his automobile and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Your dog dies due to the trauma. What have you accomplished other then venting your anger? At any rate, I think Darius has said his peace and its at a point were we are agreeing to disagree.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 22:48:00 - [307] Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:02:00 - [308] Edited by: Aprudena Gist on 10/06/2008 23:02:44 Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time. At what point did you ever think that any amount of changing the boundaries you could and couldn't do things was acceptable at all? I also want to know where in the hell you get off thinking that its okay to mute someone who is disagreeing with your methodology of being unfair disruptive to the meeting process if things aren't fair in the first place that trumps all other said issue. Its obvious you have no idea just what a chairman does to facility the meeting and you should step down be removed or learn really dam fast.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:03:00 - [309] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Depends what you mean by 'standing up'. Nothing I quoted could be construed to be working toward that goal. It wasn't even criticism, it was just bait to start a mud fight. Since you like analogies I'll give you one. Suppose someone accidentally hit your dog with a car and was bleeding internally. It needs to get to the vet. Instead you drag the driver out of his automobile and proceed to beat the crap out of him. Your dog dies due to the trauma. What have you accomplished other then venting your anger? At any rate, I think Darius has said his peace and its at a point were we are agreeing to disagree. This is not analogous. It is not because there is no fault of the driver. It is also not because the driver is not taking actions to disrupt the resolution of the matter. In this matter Jade is at fault and is disrupting the resolution of the matter.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:04:00 - [310] Thank you for finally accepting my points on all of the above, as this is what I have been asking and pointing out for the past 2 weeks! Of course, an apology for your earlier comments might not go amiss ;) It's good to see that from now on the CSM will be focussing on the IMPORTANT stuff of player issues. Lets hope the way forward is brighter... Take care, Bruce Hansen

Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:14:00 - [311] I always have respect for a person that can admit when they were wrong. Apology accepted. take care, Bruce Hansen
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:37:00 - [312] Cheers to that, well done guys.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:44:00 - [313] what the hell? That's not an apology, he blames everyone-who's-not-him for 'ruining' his meetings then says he will veto any attempt to remove him from power. But whatevs nameless caldari guy and member of star fraction lets continue to pat ourselves on the back
Gorfob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:51:00 - [314] The CSM is a farce, has been from day one. Allow me to say but one thing. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:56:00 - [315] ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:57:00 - [316] Originally by: Anton Marvik ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end. like this is a recent development
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.10 23:57:00 - [317] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well I've said my piece to them already. As far as I'm concerned here's the line in the founding documents I'm supporting: Summary of Representative Responsibilities Chairman and Vice-Chairman: Organize meetings of the CSM Moderate meetings Delegate assignments where necessary Summon Alternates when primary Representatives are unavailable *** Its a cut and dried case really. Chair has the power to moderate meetings. Moderation can mean calling people to speak, warning people from speaking over each other, ensuring the correct order of the agenda is followed and yes, if neccessary its going to include channel mutes if people really are refusing to follow the guidance of the Chair. Where we've gone wrong in my opinion is allowing ourselves to believe we can handle rules changes to this admin and procedural stuff as a elected committee. But the reality is we're a factionalized CSM with some members who really don't like other members and too much voting on partizan lines for our prospective changes to the constitution to be considered safe or reasonable. I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. I've certainly got the power as Chair to say whether an item/motion can come under the heading of ISSUE or administration and from now on I'm going to be inclined to say all attempts to change or re-write the constitution must be submitted as ISSUEs, supported by a CSM rep, go through the 7 day public discussion, and come up for discussion in the meeting as a prospective item for future 1to1 discussions with CCP on and thence to a documented proposal. We'll basically take the position that only CCP can or should change the constitution/CSM texts. And all we can do is make advise on that. We never should have been changing these things on the fly and its clear in retrospect it was a big mistake. Simplifying matters in this way we'll remove a big slice of politics and in-fighting from the CSM because issues like moderation/no-confidence/role of alternates/voting weights and such will be out of our reach (and temptation) and we'll focus entirely on ISSUEs. I'm sure there will still be storms ahead but I think a majority of the CSM are behind this intention to remove factional infighting from the administrative/procedural section of CSM proceedings and fingers crossed we'll ensure that from this point forward we won't be having any more silly votes and wasting the public time. I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:07:00 - [318] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience. Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:09:00 - [319] Originally by: Jade Constantine me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Its fortunate the Chair isn't given the power to make such decisions.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:09:00 - [320] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I'd like to make note of the fact that this issue was not brought up until AFTER a motion had been presented to remove your ability to mute people during meetings as you're clearly not fit to handle this. I'd also like to note the fact that you have chosen to unilaterally state that the results of the vote which caused you to throw the tantrum in the first place are null due to this dictatum. All in all an exercise of convenience. Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. It's like each time your defense fails you just reach into a grab bag of excuses, cross your fingers, and throw it out there hoping it'll stick.

Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:14:00 - [321] Originally by: Jade Constantine Yeah it is true Darius. Your overt attempts to play politics with the council and vote away powers and positions you don't like is a big part of me realizing that any CSM involving this sort of personality mix cannot be allowed to change its own constitution in a significant way. Some of us are trying to make the process work - you're out there playing junta for the fun of trying to fix the system again. Well consider me convinced, I've learned that we are going to have to stick to player-submitted ISSUEs only since any sniff of changing the constitution is going to have your trying to vote yourself increased holidays and tin stars to differentiate you from the alternates. Ultimately whatever, you don't like me Darius, I don't like you. We represent opposite sides of this game from the ground up, we can cast votes on gameplay issues - we can't however be trusted to make collective decisions about the CSM process in and of itself. Still, at least we got some good issues on the table. Got to look on the bright side. The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:17:00 - [322] Originally by: Kis Kecheri Wrong. Jade did what he thought was appropriate to keep the meeting in order. People are punching the driver because they feel they found some angle to abuse him with. No one attacking Jade is trying to resolve anything. They just want to kick him for the fun of it. The only ones that can do something construtive at this point is the CSM by buring the hatched and clarifying were the line can be drawn. That or CCP stepping in. Everything is just more **** in a sea of it. Who are you to state my motives? I want this CSM thing to work and find it abhorrent that Jade is abusing the process at every turn. It doesn't matter if Jade did what he thought was appropriate. That is the entire point. What Jade did was not appropriate. Everyone on the other side of the issue is looking for a resolution. The problem is that they are not looking for the resolution that Jade wants because the resolution that Jade wants involves creating powers out of thin air and letting Jade run roughshod over the rights of all council members. Hell Jade even says it in flat language for us, "I assure you I have every intention of being the very best representative I can be for those players that voted for my manifesto and want the kind of Eve I talked about there." There is another one here on this board where she flatly refuses to deal with anyone who doesn't agree with her.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:18:00 - [323] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:23:00 - [324] Originally by: Jade Constantine You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. You were clearly in control in the meeting according to the logs, and the requisite email tantrums. I'm afraid much like your inability to admit any fault whatsoever or wrongdoing, you also do not recognize when you are losing your cool. f13.net ring any bells? That whole conversation looks familiar for some reason... perhaps because it's every single one you have. If you're cool with CCP allowing this to turn into a joke (and by joke I mean your continued attempts at lordship) I'm sure everyone else will enjoy their trips to Iceland to learn about Icelandic democracy.
Kis Kecheri School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:26:00 - [325] Originally by: Anton Marvik ...the Chairman doesn't have veto power. Jade's gone off the deep end. Dear god Jade is MAD. He's Abolished the Senate and declared Martial law. THE CHINESE ARE INVADING. ISANITY
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:29:00 - [326] And my dog died and my time was stolen and my gf left and my house burned down (and 100 over terrible things the goons seem to think). Makes you think doesn't it, maybe Internet spaceships really are serious business CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:37:00 - [327] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. Yes we have Originally by: "Jade Constantine" WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT WALL OF TEXT
NerftheSmurf GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:45:00 - [328] jade please post the emails you sent to the other csms including their subject line so that everyone can see how you were calm and collected at all times
Daviclond GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:10:00 - [329] Originally by: Jade Constantine my gf fly away troll
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:37:00 - [330] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. Who is Kelsin?

Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:40:00 - [331] Edited by: Anton Marvik on 11/06/2008 01:42:37 Originally by: Pnuka Who is Kelsin? One of Jade's cronies. Its ironic because SF actually doesn't hold sovereignty anywhere while Darius' Corp/Alliance holds huge amounts of space.
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:41:00 - [332] Originally by: Pnuka Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Darius JOHNSON The difference being one of us plays by the rules as established and one throws a temper tantrum and insinuates that they can change them by dictatorial fiat whenever they realize they'll lose. Game hasn't changed for me. It's now officially gone from a council to the Jade Constantine hour. Congrats! You haven't seen me lose my temper Darius old boy. Cheer up, at least we'll get some decent ISSUES through. You should actually drop Kelsin a line about that 0.0 sovereignty re-vamp, he might be able to help you with the write up. Who is Kelsin? The guy who thinks we should have sovereignty by sitting on gates. Another one of Jades blind followers. This guy
Kai Wooglin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 01:57:00 - [333] Wow. I just read that thread, and it is possibly the worst idea I have ever heard regarding potential sov changes/ It can't be serious.
Pnuka GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:00:00 - [334] Originally by: Kai Wooglin Wow. I just read that thread, and it is possibly the worst idea I have ever heard regarding potential sov changes/ It can't be serious. Ya...unless this guy has some alts or something, a guy playing less than a year in a empire corp really isn't going to know what's going on is he? Jade are you trolling Darius or something? I've lived in 0.0 for a year now, and I'm still hazy on some of the issues.
Martin VanBuren GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:02:00 - [335] Star Fraction are pretty keen on changing sov mechanics, as clearly they are the only thing holding Star Fraction back from becoming the mighty pvp empire they obviously deserve to be
Kai Wooglin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:20:00 - [336] Originally by: Martin VanBuren Star Fraction are pretty keen on changing sov mechanics, as clearly they are the only thing holding Star Fraction back from becoming the mighty pvp empire they obviously deserve to be They would obviously be the next GS/RA/TCF/BOB/AAA if only they weren't being held back by current sov mechanics. It has nothing at all to do with who they are. Right?
Wu Jiun State War Academy	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:25:00 - [337] Originally by: Jade Constantine I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. Originally by: Jade Constantine I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. So basically you withdraw that statement? I wonder how even your own corpmates can stand behind such an obvious liar. They should be ashamed.
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:29:00 - [338] Originally by: Wu Jiun Originally by: Jade Constantine I said I'd do my best to get a change to the constitution that made the CSM chair elected by the committee. I've written, publicly discussed, and commended the issue to the CSM, its been added to the Iceland agenda. If I manage to see this put into the constitution by vote and consultancy with CCP I'll step down and stand for re-election as chair under the new rules. Originally by: Jade Constantine I think the way forward is to pretty much veto all attempts to re-write the constitutional issues at this point and focus entirely on player subscribed gameplay issues. So basically you withdraw that statement? I wonder how even your own corpmates can stand behind such an obvious liar. They should be ashamed. I think they are alt's not corpmates.
Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:33:00 - [339] Hi. I expect Darius has plenty of ideas for writing up how to pitch it to CCP but simple though the actual topic is, if for some reason he's into collaborating, I'm up for it. And...broken record...while Capturing Stargates is an interesting jumping off point for a wild revamp of Sovereignty, that's not what Darius is writing up...and he already knows that...etc etc. I love you Goons, Kelsin
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:54:00 - [340] Originally by: Kelsin Hi. I expect Darius has plenty of ideas for writing up how to pitch it to CCP but simple though the actual topic is, if for some reason he's into collaborating, I'm up for it. And...broken record...while Capturing Stargates is an interesting jumping off point for a wild revamp of Sovereignty, that's not what Darius is writing up...and he already knows that...etc etc. I love you Goons, Kelsin You will never get a dramatic change to the sov system like that though ccp anyways they would never spend the time/effort.

Kelsin Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 02:58:00 - [341] Originally by: Aprudena Gist You will never get a dramatic change to the sov system like that though ccp anyways they would never spend the time/effort. I get why you say that, but...and I've said this a lot recently...CCP Nozh actually posted something pretty similar beforehand, and my example was just based off of that. His version is linked in the OP of one of those two links Goum posted. So my thing was a relatively small variation on something they're already working on - hence the CSM proposal to inquire as to how that revamp they're already working on was coming. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm fragile.
Illaria	Posted - 2008.06.11 09:09:00 - [342] Sorry if I missed it, but you guys still haven't answered the question many here have asked: Why don't you use a forum and instead insist on chat based communication, although it's general consensus that chats are a very inefficient method for the discussion of complex matters, and only get worse the more people are involved. It's really baffeling to me. I know you use forums to manage communication within your respective alliances so why not for the CSM. Aside from that: haggling about procedural matters is the norm and the exception in politics. As CCP unfortunately hasn't defined a constitution for the CSM procedure I'd guess that we will witness some more haggling in the future until the CSM decides upon their own constitution. I'd recommend joining your local chapter of the political party of your choice, if you don't believe me, or any other political quasi political organization like a union. Like a fellow (RL) party member once told me, after I asked her why so much time is wasted on procedural matters on each meeting: "Procedure is power, my friend. It allows you to define the agenda, and the agenda is the cornerstone of the political process".
Anton Marvik AnTi. Atrocitas	Posted - 2008.06.11 10:21:00 - [343] Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. When did it change from that to you interpreting the CSM documentation and having veto power?
Goumindong Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 12:04:00 - [344] Edited by: Goumindong on 11/06/2008 12:04:24 Originally by: Illaria Sorry if I missed it, but you guys still haven't answered the question many here have asked: Why don't you use a forum and instead insist on chat based communication, although it's general consensus that chats are a very inefficient method for the discussion of complex matters, and only get worse the more people are involved. They are supposed to use the forum for the discussion threads. But are skirting the line by considering the "issue" threads "adequate discussion". They are using eve-chat as a communication manner for the meetings because CCP and the CSM document require it in order to officially record the meetings(or something, but the point is that they don't have a choice in the latter)
Aprudena Gist GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 13:39:00 - [345] Originally by: Anton Marvik Originally by: Jade Constantine Well, the only "power" I believe the chair should have in these meetings is the ability to moderate discussion. When did it change from that to you interpreting the CSM documentation and having veto power? when people didn't obey him as their lord and saviour.
Darius JOHNSON GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:24:00 - [346] Originally by: Anton Marvik When did it change from that to you interpreting the CSM documentation and having veto power? The first time a vote was called to prevent it.
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.11 21:35:00 - [347] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 11/06/2008 21:36:56 I'm rather annoyed at the lack of any actual worthwhile discussions on topics. I mean, seriously - saying 'oh, we've got this issue, we'll talk to CCP about it' is BS - discuss the issue, discuss solutions, discuss why it's an issue or don't even bring it up in the first place. Extending aggro timer / variable aggro timer was something that had a 2-page thread which did not get any meaningful discussion off CSMs (and had dissenting voices explaining why aggro timers are fine), and they all said 'aye' without saying WHY are aggro timers a problem and discussing wether they should be changed. Just saying 'aye'... meh.* Furthermore, the issues like 'oh, war-decs, let's talk to CCP about war-decs' without discussion wether war-decs are broken, why are war-decs broken, etc, is totally LOL. Furthermore, people abstaining from votes are just LOL. You were not selected to 'not give a damn' - and someone can push an issue (potentially a bad one) further with just one vote since nobody cares about it. Don't forget you were elected by the player-base. I assume most people didn't vote so you can say "I don't give a damn" about important issues. *Jade did a world of discussing in the thread. "Oh, yeah, I support it" is NOT a discussion. Particularly and specifically not when it's posted by one of the CSM guys, and advancing a unpopular topic just because you like it (with a number of other topics far more popular not being discussed) means you're only pushing your personal agenda rather then being a medium for the players to communicate with CCP. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:55:00 - [348] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 22:56:38 Originally by: Cpt Branko *Jade did a world of discussing in the thread. "Oh, yeah, I support it" is NOT a discussion. Particularly and specifically not when it's posted by one of the CSM guys, and advancing a unpopular topic just because you like it (with a number of other topics far more popular not being discussed) means you're only pushing your personal agenda rather then being a medium for the players to communicate with CCP. I think you'll find I expressed an opinion on one of the threads on the topic. "Currently there is a problem with the docking timer being abused by well-tanked battleships (and capitals) being able to engage in combat and then de-aggress and redock to avoid significant counter-attack. This problem was caused by general increase in ship hit points over several incremental patches designed to specifically to lengthen combat while there has been a failure to lengthen re-dock/jump aggression timers by a similar degree. Outcome is that station dock range (stargate range) fighting is currently overpowered since in the environment of increased hit points for all ships it becomes too difficult to destroy targets in the limited aggression window. This encourages over-blobbing as the only way to inflict sufficient damage on the target before it docks and has the knock-on effect of discouraging any combat at all. Question will CCP development agree this is a problem? And will they commit to increasing dock/redock/gate aggression timers to be in line with general ship hit point buffs since CASTOR? Roughly this would involve lengthening timers to 2-3x their current value. Additional related question can we have a visual countdown of dock/redock/gate aggression timer on our User Interface please?" In raising the issue document for the Iceland agenda several discussions in several threads will be summarized and the decent ideas listed. Please don't jump to the conclusion that just because I've typed "yeah support" in one of several duplicate threads I haven't made substantive comment in one of them.
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:58:00 - [349] Edited by: Fallorn on 11/06/2008 23:59:00 Edited by: Fallorn on 11/06/2008 23:58:39 Edited by: Fallorn on 11/06/2008 23:58:15 Originally by: Jade Constantine Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 22:56:38 Originally by: Cpt Branko *Jade did a world of discussing in the thread. "Oh, yeah, I support it" is NOT a discussion. Particularly and specifically not when it's posted by one of the CSM guys, and advancing a unpopular topic just because you like it (with a number of other topics far more popular not being discussed) means you're only pushing your personal agenda rather then being a medium for the players to communicate with CCP. I think you'll find I expressed an opinion on one of the threads on the topic. "Currently there is a problem with the docking timer being abused by well-tanked battleships (and capitals) being able to engage in combat and then de-aggress and redock to avoid significant counter-attack. This problem was caused by general increase in ship hit points over several incremental patches designed to specifically to lengthen combat while there has been a failure to lengthen re-dock/jump aggression timers by a similar degree. Outcome is that station dock range (stargate range) fighting is currently overpowered since in the environment of increased hit points for all ships it becomes too difficult to destroy targets in the limited aggression window. This encourages over-blobbing as the only way to inflict sufficient damage on the target before it docks and has the knock-on effect of discouraging any combat at all. Question will CCP development agree this is a problem? And will they commit to increasing dock/redock/gate aggression timers to be in line with general ship hit point buffs since CASTOR? Roughly this would involve lengthening timers to 2-3x their current value. Additional related question can we have a visual countdown of dock/redock/gate aggression timer on our User Interface please?" In raising the issue document for the Iceland agenda several discussions in several threads will be summarized and the decent ideas listed. Please don't jump to the conclusion that just because I've typed "yeah support" in one of several duplicate threads I haven't made substantive comment in one of them. Marius Duvall said, "Doing 'an Andy Cruse' became the accepted term for walls of text that sapped your will to live." I think most of you know that he was right.
XxAngelxX The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.06.12 04:28:00 - [350] If you want this to be done properly then you need: - A clear agenda with all points of discussion prepared before hand and handed out to all members before the meeting - A chairman who is unbiased and good at time management, probably a CCP employee As for the muting, well, I can understand the time constraints but seriously, if you're going to give someone moderation of a channel at least make sure they know how to moderate properly. The mute-kick bug has been there for months. It was pretty good comedy though, next time someone prepare highlights so I don't have to read all the drivel.

Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.12 06:54:00 - [351] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/06/2008 06:56:01 Originally by: Jade Constantine I think you'll find I expressed an opinion on one of the threads on the topic. "Currently there is a problem with the docking timer being abused by well-tanked battleships (and capitals) being able to engage in combat and then de-aggress and redock to avoid significant counter-attack. This problem was caused by general increase in ship hit points over several incremental patches designed to specifically to lengthen combat while there has been a failure to lengthen re-dock/jump aggression timers by a similar degree. Outcome is that station dock range (stargate range) fighting is currently overpowered since in the environment of increased hit points for all ships it becomes too difficult to destroy targets in the limited aggression window. This encourages over-blobbing as the only way to inflict sufficient damage on the target before it docks and has the knock-on effect of discouraging any combat at all. Question will CCP development agree this is a problem? And will they commit to increasing dock/redock/gate aggression timers to be in line with general ship hit point buffs since CASTOR? Roughly this would involve lengthening timers to 2-3x their current value. Additional related question can we have a visual countdown of dock/redock/gate aggression timer on our User Interface please?" In raising the issue document for the Iceland agenda several discussions in several threads will be summarized and the decent ideas listed. Please don't jump to the conclusion that just because I've typed "yeah support" in one of several duplicate threads I haven't made substantive comment in one of them. (a) The thread you linked did not contain this discussion - in fact, the visible thread did not have any sort of massive support, indicating it's an issue you like rather then a popular issue. (b) Your arguments are hugely flawed, given firepower has increased as well and player mechanics have been developed (bumping, the most popular solution to station hugging, particularly when you undock) to offset deaggro/dock/tank tactics (which ARE valid tactics btw). All sub BS ships right now are very unlikely to deaggro/dock successfully, and it's preety much only the BS which can do this (and it doesn't work for them often enough either, wether due to bumping or just due to having too little time since you spot your tank failing to the final explosion). There is simply nothing wrong with the mechanics for sub-BS ships, and I highly suspect there's anything wrong with it when we consider capitals (which just need to be bumped). I completely disagree it has the effect of discouraging combat at all; without the ability to deagress and dock in a reasonable time frame, people would simply not agress in the first place. Promoting blobbing or no, people will blob all the same, and now you don't have to worry about the target deaggro/dock-ing on a local spike, you know he's stuck there for long enough ;) So, why promote a not so supported topic? Your personal agenda? Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.06.12 10:26:00 - [352] Meh less drama more raising of important issues and issues Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?

Night Tripper Es and Whizz	Posted - 2008.06.12 19:56:00 - [353] this post is gold dust.
Anthony Pants	Posted - 2008.06.13 01:37:00 - [354] I'm severely disappointed in the turnout of our CSMs to this thread, and the others like it. Do they feel threatened by the goons? Do they feel threatened by Jade? Do they feel impotent? The fact of the matter is, this is a huge topic that a lot of the voting public feels strongly in. Jade is dismissing it as trolling or a threadnought or a goon conspiracy, but even CSMs other than Darius and Bane feel differently than Jade does. I've yet to see the majority of our CSMs respond to the claims that have been put forward. By the way, isn't posting this the duty of the secretary?
Courthouse Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.06.13 01:55:00 - [355] Edited by: Courthouse on 13/06/2008 01:57:05 Edited by: Courthouse on 13/06/2008 01:55:19 Originally by: Anthony Pants By the way, isn't posting this the duty of the secretary? That is Jade politicking to act like it's the best man/woman/thing for the job after what went down this week. If he can't have absolute power he'll take it in small portions, including discounting 50% of the EvE playerbase by giving a giant tt to the US players.
Anthony Pants	Posted - 2008.06.13 03:33:00 - [356] Originally by: Courthouse Edited by: Courthouse on 13/06/2008 01:57:05 Edited by: Courthouse on 13/06/2008 01:55:19 Originally by: Anthony Pants By the way, isn't posting this the duty of the secretary? That is Jade politicking to act like it's the best man/woman/thing for the job after what went down this week. If he can't have absolute power he'll take it in small portions, including discounting 50% of the EvE playerbase by giving a giant tt to the US players. [ 2008.06.12 20:47:44 ] Ankhesentapemkah > Abstain - I'm not happy with the current situation but I'm not happy with the fix either. [ 2008.06.12 20:47:58 ] Inanna Zuni > (CCP won't let us abstain on issues) [ 2008.06.12 20:48:06 ] Jade Constantine > I'm going to say Aye - because i'd like to talk about it with ccp [ 2008.06.12 20:48:06 ] Hardin > Just say no then ankh [ 2008.06.12 20:48:07 ] Ankhesentapemkah > gives them the finger [ 2008.06.12 20:48:13 ] Inanna Zuni > (rofl) [ 2008.06.12 20:50:53 ] Inanna Zuni > what is a .docx? [ 2008.06.12 20:51:02 ] LaVista Vista > Office 2007 [ 2008.06.12 20:51:06 ] Jade Constantine > something i needed a converter for Smiley [ 2008.06.12 20:51:19 ] Ankhesentapemkah > microsoft has a plugin for office 2003 [ 2008.06.12 20:51:28 ] LaVista Vista > Most application should be able to read it. Plugin for office 2003 [ 2008.06.12 20:51:29 ] Ankhesentapemkah > but please dont use DocX in the future its crap [ 2008.06.12 20:51:44 ] Ankhesentapemkah > well I had office 2000 before I got 2003 from a torrent just to open this crap. [ 2008.06.12 20:51:48 ] Jade Constantine > Anyways lets take a few minutes to make sure we can open and read these documents everyone please? [ 2008.06.12 20:52:01 ] Jade Constantine > cup of tea, get them opened and have a read [ 2008.06.12 20:52:16 ] Jade Constantine > and as you are happy with the docs - ... please let us know here : [ 2008.06.12 20:55:38 ] Dierdra Vaal > I feel a lot of the documents lack a proper explanation, and motivation, of the solution [ 2008.06.12 20:55:43 ] Dierdra Vaal > and in some cases of the problem [ 2008.06.12 20:55:56 ] Inanna Zuni > I'm having to research something to open the files; will clearly take too long so will take what is posted here as my input (one reason I sent PDFs around) [ 2008.06.12 20:56:25 ] Ankhesentapemkah > I can convert them and mail them... [ 2008.06.12 20:56:52 ] Jade Constantine > When i tried to open them i got a popup that prompted me to download a converter from microsoft inanna? [ 2008.06.12 20:56:58 ] Jade Constantine > seemed to work [ 2008.06.12 20:57:13 ] Ankhesentapemkah > not if you have office 97 or something [ 2008.06.12 20:57:17 ] Jade Constantine > ah [ 2008.06.12 20:57:31 ] Jade Constantine > if you could convert them quickly and put them to the list that would be great Ank [ 2008.06.12 20:57:35 ] Ankhesentapemkah > sure [ 2008.06.12 20:57:36 ] Jade Constantine > much obliged [ 2008.06.12 20:57:54 ] Inanna Zuni > please (am currently looking at Bugtracker ...) [ 2008.06.12 20:58:11 ] Dierdra Vaal > what office suite do you use? [ 2008.06.12 20:58:39 ] Hardin > Okay I am ready for next stage [ 2008.06.12 20:58:58 ] Inanna Zuni > I am on OpenOffice latest-but-not-beta [ 2008.06.12 20:59:43 ] Jade Constantine > Yep I'm ready too but we'll allow plenty of time for people to catch up (I'm going to make another cup of tea) [ 2008.06.12 20:59:48 ] Inanna Zuni > beta of 3.0 has support though so I mighrt download [ 2008.06.12 21:07:46 ] Inanna Zuni > "it got all kinds of docx crap in the layout" ... tries not to get into MS-bashing mode Of course, that's not disruptive. You can tell because nobody got muted. Why was LaVista Vista was the moderator this time? I'm glad he stepped up; at least there's one individual who's able to carry out the meetings in a professional manner.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2008.06.13 03:49:00 - [357] Originally by: Anthony Pants Why was LaVista Vista was the moderator this time? I'm glad he stepped up; at least there's one individual who's able to carry out the meetings in a professional manner. I was presenting my 6 issues which were voted on last time, provided they would be split up into several issues rather than one. So it was my job to present the issues and make sure debates were structured. And I think it turned out very very well, so I'm very happy about that.
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.17 20:14:00 - [358] LaVista, could you please tell us exactly what issues (each specific one) that you got through then? Or did you get through 6 topics with multiple issues? How is this splitting them up for discussion and voting purposes? Take care, Bruce Hansen
Velios M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2008.06.20 14:56:00 - [359] Originally by: Arithron Silly man playing at politics. Get a life - when you are older you will look back at all this rubbish you have written on the internet and be embarrassed at how sad you truly were. You aren't the only one either and I am CERTAIN that having regular people playing at being bureaucrats, but doing it very badly is not what CCP had in mind for this whole process. This certainly isn't enjoyable to see and is beginning to completely destroy the concept of EVE as a Game (remember that people - EVE actually is a game) I am beginning to think that it was a mistake to involve players in the procedures that could change the game for everyone involved. CCP should have had the strength and courage to make their own decisions about the great game which they created instead of bowing to pressure which has ultimately created this monster. The NEW M.Corp Data Hub - Check it out!
Arithron Gallente Trade Alliance	Posted - 2008.06.20 15:43:00 - [360] You may want to actually quote something of substance when replying? I have reported you, as your post is, if nothing else, offensive. What is truely sad is that many representatives can not even be bothered to interact and discuss issues with the players of Eve, nor answer simple questions about issues and the procedure they are presented to the council. You seem to think that the CSM council can change the game? I think that the CSM documents would suggest otherwise. Take care, Bruce Hansen (Arithron)

Something About Lazzy Boy Industries Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2008.06.22 20:45:00 - [361] I think they need more time to do something, which is quite normal at this point. Also, guys and girls from CSM... It is not unusual to have problems about constitution. I suggest you to read some RL experiences from the internet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venice_Commission http://www.venice.coe.int/ This organisation helped to many small and new republics to jump over constitution changes. And, yes, it also helped my country. You can also read there about some rights about voting process and how it can reflect to CSM. I do not wanna think you do not know anything about real parliament stuff and rules. Please, try to inform yourself about this. It can help you a lot on meetings in real life too. I have meetings with clients of company I'm working for almost every day. The company im working for is very liberal and democratic. Even owner of company has the same rights as new employeer. But our meetings are more cultural. We know that it must be some order. Try to have voice meeting. Txt based is not always good enough. I'm director of one dept in my corp. We have 4 dept. And 5'th person is founder. We have meetings every week. 5 of us on our TS server. Almost always in general channel, so anyone from corp can listen (and to talk, too). We have never, but I mean never (!), had problems with communication. And we do not always like opinions of other side, but we know that we must communicate normaly cose it will be good for the whole corp. We are responibile for our corp and we are aware of that. If you continue to act like that and to do job like that, than guys, u r not ready for the role you accepted. In that case, this will be the last time I will vote for any CSM candidate. CCP took their job serious. Cose someone is paied good enough to make it serious. You guys are also paied to take it serious. The payment is this: Responasablity to whole EvE Community u represent, Chance to help something change in the game, and free trip to Island :)) I'm sorry if my English is not good enough for you. It's not my native language and I'm not using it every day.
Phelanwolf	Posted - 2008.07.04 12:14:00 - [362] lmao! You couldn't pay for better stuff than that minutes log.
Viqer Fell Minmatar Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.07 01:24:00 - [363] That has got to be the most farcical set of minutes for a meeting that I have ever read. 20 minutes of discussing EvE and 4 hours of bickering, futile willy-waving, turgid and tedious arguments on semantics and a thrilling debate on whether abstaining counts as a Yes, a No or even a vote at all. And it took them 3 meetings to get to that point. I think CCP might need to order a lot of beer for themselves when the Iceland meeting happens because if that set of minutes is anything to go by it'll take them 3 days to finalise the vote on what colour the name badges will be.... Red / Blue / If a Name Badge is Green is it really a Name Badge at all? You couldn't make it up Light travels faster than sound, That is w
Jamie Hara Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.11 04:59:00 - [364] Originally by: Viqer Fell That has got to be the most farcical set of minutes for a meeting that I have ever read. 20 minutes of discussing EvE and 4 hours of bickering, futile willy-waving, turgid and tedious arguments on semantics and a thrilling debate on whether abstaining counts as a Yes, a No or even a vote at all. And it took them 3 meetings to get to that point. I think CCP might need to order a lot of beer for themselves when the Iceland meeting happens because if that set of minutes is anything to go by it'll take them 3 days to finalise the vote on what colour the name badges will be.... Red / Blue / If a Name Badge is Green is it really a Name Badge at all? You couldn't make it up The Iceland meeting has already taken place. Thanks for posting. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.07.11 15:20:00 - [365] Please lock this thread. Its now really taking the mickey that discussion of meeting 3 is constantly bumped above discussion of recent meetings post Iceland when virtually everyone with an interest in the process knows that these early teething issues with the council have been resolved to mutual satisfaction. This thread (and others like it) now serve only the interests of trolling and shouldn't be open. Star Fraction \| Dare to Dream!

CCP Navigator C C P	Posted - 2008.07.11 15:24:00 - [366] Thread locked. Topic has become little more than trolling. Navigator Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Email / Netfang



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