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Sheila Love
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:33:00 -
[61]
Surely CCP should of seen that something of this nature was gonna happen what with said moons in the new region.
On a side note now, this will most likely spice up the action in FW some what if RA decide to flex there muscles, giving the gallente a boost in the process, tho you never know if there's Cap's to pop, we may even see a Caldari/Gallente ceasefire and a co-ordinated effort made to remove the russians from FW space.
Just imagine the Gallente droneswarm teamed with the Caldari missile and EM spam.. |
Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:34:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Kaishain
Originally by: Yatta I
Originally by: Kaishain
So the militia is engaging in normal conflicts but have the luxury of not being able to get wardecced?
How can non-FW corps and alliances retaliate when militias decides to screw with their business?
I see it as RA screwing the business between Gallante and Caldari.
By camping gates frequently used by alliance logistics you can say that it was you who interfered with RA bussiness. Unlike in High-sec one doesn not simply trust others not to engage. RA can't trust the 50 FW guys sitting on Tama-Nouv gate not to engage their multi billion haulers.
I think CCP should let alliances wardec militias OR disable militias from attacking "normal" players.
This is incorrect. I saw RA and Ultima Ratio around earlier that day camping, and they were definitely just doing regular random low-sec piracy. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.) |
Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:35:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Butter Dog on 13/06/2008 12:36:47
Very entertaining. Go Caldari Militia! haha...
They don't have to destroy it, just keep reinforcing the towers and you end up losing money from them and they become pointless. Whats RA going to do? Pull it fleet and capitals back from 0.0 every time this happens? Would soon get very tiresome.
You have to remember a lot of these guys are new to this kind of combat, and they love it. They won't tire of it that quickly because its all new, shiney and fun, and there is a constant supply of fresh blood to keep up momentum.
Good on the Caldari Militia protecting their constellations assets! 
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:36:00 -
[64]
Sorry but i dont find that is good news, FW must inter NPC alliance warfare if it start to be used in the PC politics as a tool, it will turn bad very quickly
Personnally was about to join Caldari Militia to have fun against gallente / Minmatarr militia, not being used (willingly or not / intentionally or not) to help X side of the PC political map (especially if they are BoB or BoB pets) |
Yuri Tsukimoto
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:37:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Kaishain
The problem is that the people you attack does not have conventional means to retaliate on the militias. RA CAN NOT cut you off from your money supply. They can't wardec you and fight the problem by attacking YOUR logistics or missionsrunning which fuels the gatecamps.
THAT is the differance. You people can engage in normal conflicts and inlfict the same damage as any of RA's enemies. The difference is that you are able to hide behind gamemecjanics and NPC protection. RA does NOT have the means to retaliate on militias like they can on others.
As long as i udnerstand the prohibition of wardec, forbidding fights in empire, please do tell me something:
- How many Alliances decide something in High-Sec ?
- What was the avarage of fighting between alliances in high-sec prior to FW ?
- What stopped people from making minning/mission running alts to supply an alliance before FW ?
There were *several* mechanics to support a battle without compromising your main source of income already there.
Now it¦s a question of adaptation.
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:37:00 -
[66]
Baltec:
1. RA attacked US first, with it being our main line of reinforcements it has a very good defencive force.
Doesn't matter. An organised entity interfered with established logistical routes and that's viewed as a hostile act anywhere else in Eve.
2. Up untill that point I have seen no RA or in fact any other corp/allience haulers being attacked on that gate.
Doesn't matter. The mere fact of a large armed group on a low-sec gate hinders any player with any 0,0/low-sec experience from passing thru in a normal fashion. This IS a hostile act.
3. RA dont own that system
Up until now eve-pleyers have been able to claim systems to different degrees and have had the means to enforce this to different degrees. If the militias had been a normal corp you would probably face a wardec and take hits in your high-sec activities and logistics.
4. One of the RA carriers left unharmed because it did not open fire, only the ships that attacked us were considered targets.
Read above doesn't matter.
5. I have run into lots of RA gangs taking on FW pilots in the contested systems and INSIDE capture zones.
Doen't matter.
Is it any wonder that we consider them a hostile target?
So the mlitias should get the benefits of normal corps in combat without having to deal with the drawbacks of facing retaliation?
You should be able to attack and destroy assets that your FC's decide but the attacked groups shouldn't be able to get back to you in normal ways?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:39:00 -
[67]
Keep at it, make it cost for every 0.0 alliance that try to control moonmining in low sec too.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:43:00 -
[68]
- How many Alliances decide something in High-Sec ?
What do you mean? They are free to attack any entity that directly or indirectly helps their enemies. Unlike militias.
- What was the avarage of fighting between alliances in high-sec prior to FW ?
Attacking high-sec logistical corps/missionrunners are not something uncommong. Rarely the main goal but not uncommon and it does have impacts.
- What stopped people from making minning/mission running alts to supply an alliance before FW ?
Nothing. The difference now is that militias is the same as an alt-corp but on the same characters that they attack other people with.
Logistical alt corps are usually traced too.
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Yuri Tsukimoto
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:44:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kaishain
You should be able to attack and destroy assets that your FC's decide but the attacked groups shouldn't be able to get back to you in normal ways?
Hmmm, that reminds me of a thing called "Legal system".
Change FC for a Judge/Nation and you have the same thing.
All governamentes want power. They screw you because there are many of you, they are not screwed by you because they have a legal system to back them up, and an armed branch to enforce that.
Welcome to the dictatorship of the majority, also known as "Democracy".
And yet, i still see no reason to complain.
If you want to wardec a militia JOIN the OTHER side of the war.
There you go, magic !
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Yuri Tsukimoto
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:46:00 -
[70]
Join the Gallente
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Keep at it, make it cost for every 0.0 alliance that try to control moonmining in low sec too.
And what about the average low-sec corp?
Should the personal interests of the militia-FC be allowed to have ANY impact at all on normal busniess in low-sec? What stops the militia-FC to put up a POS at a moon that he got his faction warfare buddies to destroy?
Why should the former owners of that moon face an enemy with logistics and income gathering protected by gamemechanics and NPCs?
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:48:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Yuri Tsukimoto
RP
way to go! Let's justify all imbalances with roleplay!!
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Megamina
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:49:00 -
[73]
so what Kaishain what's the problem ? If you have a corp of let's take 50 ppl wanting to do so, they can join a npc corp, still keep organized like a player corp and fight anyone without getting any war on them... So I don't see where th FW thing brings new problems about it...
your behaviour really sounds like you got pwned by some of the militia men and still bitter about it...
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Bael Thazor
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:49:00 -
[74]
The best thing about all this mess is that it could have happened at any point in the past.
People are talking about the Caldari Militia as though it is an alliance in its own right, since apparently reinforcing a POS is an act that only a conscious political body would advocate. What's important to remember though, is that in low-sec there is no NPC protection: it's just the players in their fleets, following the orders of an FC, blowing stuff up.
Exactly the same thing could have happened pre-Empyrean Age: any random could have gathered a bunch of new players together, telling them all to bring a tech 1 frigate and go on a jaunt into low-sec to assault someone's POS. They might have got it into reinforced: they might not. Pre-Empyrean Age, people might have raised eyebrows had a fleet without an agenda suddenly assaulted someone's POS, but no one would have called into question game mechanics or claimed that people should not be able to fire upon POSes unless they were a member of an alliance themselves.
The only thing that was lacking was motivation: people didn't want to risk their ships with unknown pilots, didn't want to follow someone without an established goal.
Factional Warfare provides that goal, gives pilots in Empire a reason to undock and take their ships out to fight. While the contenders are correct in one sense - the militias don't have a logisitical supply to mess up, don't have POSes of their own to attack etc - they are missing the basic point of all this: everyone in the militia is there, not because alliance warfare dictates it, but because they want to enjoy the experience of flying in a fleet and taking on targets. You can blow up their frigs and cruisers, but if they enjoy the fight, they'll come back for more. It's a target that you can never really kill, and it amounts to nothing more than CCP providing players with an extra avenue of communication, to explore and fight in EVE together.
Low-sec politics have changed dramatically with these Militia fleets, and Alliances will have to consider new ways of deterring them from attacking their assets. Who knows, they might even need to defend themselves!
Good luck to everyone in the Militia: make RA bleed!
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Hannobaal
Shadow Forces Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:50:00 -
[75]
There is simply no point in declaring war on militias.
In low-sec you can allready attack them. You will get a sec hit and criminal flag, but so will they if they attack you, so it's all the same.
In high-sec, even if you could attack them as far as Concord was concerned through a war declaration, the friendly faction navy would still fight on their side, making things very difficult for you.
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Yuri Tsukimoto
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:50:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kaishain
And what about the average low-sec corp?
Should the personal interests of the militia-FC be allowed to have ANY impact at all on normal busniess in low-sec? What stops the militia-FC to put up a POS at a moon that he got his faction warfare buddies to destroy?
Why should the former owners of that moon face an enemy with logistics and income gathering protected by gamemechanics and NPCs?
- The avarage low-sec corp now have competition. It¦s the savage and barbaric law of the market in action. Money doesn¦t like people.
- Should the personal interests of the (alliance)-FC be allowed to have ANY impact at all on normal busniess in low-sec (high-sec)? What stops the (alliance)-FC to put up a POS at a moon that he got his (enemy alliance) buddies to destroy?
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:51:00 -
[77]
oh god, shut up with the whining
Its a dedicated 'factional warfare' region, where 'factions' fight one another for 'control' of the system.
If an alliance wants to stick up POS in that region, the militias are perfectly within their right to hit it. Cry all you like about it, its not as if RA are short of Prom moons elsewhere. Lots of valuable moons in 0.0, I don't think the single Prom and Dysp moon in Black Rise (which IRON is mining, FYI) are that much of an imbalance.
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SunglassesInSpace
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:53:00 -
[78]
So who's the mastermind who got a bunch of pubbies to work for them?
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:53:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Megamina
so what Kaishain what's the problem ? If you have a corp of let's take 50 ppl wanting to do so, they can join a npc corp, still keep organized like a player corp and fight anyone without getting any war on them... So I don't see where th FW thing brings new problems about it...
your behaviour really sounds like you got pwned by some of the militia men and still bitter about it...
Yes, but most of us allready agree that the mechanics behind NPC corps are flawed. Why add another feature with the same flawed mechanics?
I say limit the ability for militias (and npc-corps) to have an impact on normal eve-play... unless normal eve players can have an equal impact on them.
And it's the other way around. It is I who pwn militiamembers.
And why would I have to have personal interest in this to have an opinion about it? Are your really that narrow minded?
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:54:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Kaishain
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Keep at it, make it cost for every 0.0 alliance that try to control moonmining in low sec too.
And what about the average low-sec corp?
Should the personal interests of the militia-FC be allowed to have ANY impact at all on normal busniess in low-sec? What stops the militia-FC to put up a POS at a moon that he got his faction warfare buddies to destroy?
Why should the former owners of that moon face an enemy with logistics and income gathering protected by gamemechanics and NPCs?
I see little difference in a smalltime operation being steamrolled by RA or FW. They have always been at risk, now the monopolicers join that fold.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
Chony
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:54:00 -
[81]
This is a warning to all alliances and corps in Caldari lowsec space, we are taking back what rightfully belongs to the State! All parties found harboring Gallente refugees will be executed.
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Ralle030583
The Wild Hunt
Pure.
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:55:00 -
[82]
i see it as condign vengeance of the caldari militia.
neraly every armed army would do the same...
they got attacked -> they kill the attacker
they find the hideout of the agressor (POS)-> they destroy it (reinforce)
end of story... i would do the same
Greetings Ralle
*Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with my corp/alliance*
You need a free Killboard?
check: http:\\www.eve-kill.net
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
i have untrashed this bug report and i will take car |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.13 12:55:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kaishain
Baltec:
1. RA attacked US first, with it being our main line of reinforcements it has a very good defencive force.
Doesn't matter. An organised entity interfered with established logistical routes and that's viewed as a hostile act anywhere else in Eve.
2. Up untill that point I have seen no RA or in fact any other corp/allience haulers being attacked on that
gate.
Doesn't matter. The mere fact of a large armed group on a low-sec gate hinders any player with any 0,0/low-sec experience from passing thru in a normal fashion. This IS a hostile act.
3. RA dont own that system
Up until now eve-pleyers have been able to claim systems to different degrees and have had the means to enforce this to different degrees. If the militias had been a normal corp you would probably face a wardec and take hits in your high-sec activities and logistics.
4. One of the RA carriers left unharmed because it did not open fire, only the ships that attacked us were considered targets.
Read above doesn't matter.
5. I have run into lots of RA gangs taking on FW pilots in the contested systems and INSIDE capture zones.
Doen't matter.
Is it any wonder that we consider them a hostile target?
So the mlitias should get the benefits of normal corps in combat without having to deal with the drawbacks of facing retaliation?
You should be able to attack and destroy assets that your FC's decide but the attacked groups shouldn't be able to get back to you in normal ways?
are there some rules I dont know about?
I cant attack RA in high sec same as them
I will not be going into their 0.0 empire and neither will the milita.
Also why is it that to you, them attacking us in FW areas where they have no business is ok but when we attack back its suddenly wrong?
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:02:00 -
[84]
Also why is it that to you, them attacking us in FW areas where they have no business is ok but when we attack back its suddenly wrong?
I don't say it is wrong for you to attack them. I say it is wrong that they don't have the ability to retaliate in a way that they would (possibly) retaliate on any other entity attacking them. |
Bael Thazor
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:04:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Bael Thazor on 13/06/2008 13:05:52
Originally by: Kaishain
Originally by: Yuri Tsukimoto
- The avarage low-sec corp now have competition. It¦s the savage and barbaric law of the market in action. Money doesn¦t like people.
Uneven competition. Uneven based on one of the parties having protective gamemechanics backing them up.
Explain exactly what these 'protective game mechanics' are. FW is nothing more than a glorified chat room that allows pilots to form a fleet with people they wouldn't normally form fleets with. They target systems with objectives, and like any fleet of random people in EVE, have every right to shoot whoever the hell they want. Likewise, they can be shot at back.
There hasn't been a magical rewrite of the rules, and as someone said earlier, you may as well have the entire fleet in NPC corps, following one FCs orders for the thrill of the fight rather than any political motivation. If this involves messing with some POSes, why not?
Originally by: Kaishain
Originally by: Yuri Tsukimoto
- Should the personal interests of the (alliance)-FC be allowed to have ANY impact at all on normal busniess in low-sec (high-sec)? What stops the (alliance)-FC to put up a POS at a moon that he got his (enemy alliance) buddies to destroy?
Yes, because they play the same game as the rest of us. Unlike militias 0,0-alliances do not have any protective gamemechanics that they haven't worked for and that can't be detroyed.
I am free to fight 0,0-alliances whereever i want to. I can attack their assets, logistics, ratters, miners, missionrunners. This is not possible when it comes to militias, YET militias are still able to have the same negateive impact on others as the 0,0 alliances does.
Basically, you're upset that a random group of pilots can affect something you do in the game, but you can't have an effect on what they do in the game. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. This has always been the case, and always be the case in EVE. Just because CCP have introduced a new method through which these players can interact, DOES NOT MEAN that they are suddenly a new political powerbloc that is unassailable by other alliances.
If they annoy RA enough, I'm sure RA can just move a few cap fleets to the system and annhilate any militia pilots that enter the system. Let's see how long the militia hangs around then. |
Cuthbert Drake
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:05:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Kaishain
Also why is it that to you, them attacking us in FW areas where they have no business is ok but when we attack back its suddenly wrong?
I don't say it is wrong for you to attack them. I say it is wrong that they don't have the ability to retaliate in a way that they would (possibly) retaliate on any other entity attacking them.
Ok, since the intel thingy was blown in the other thread, I'll say this:
You're either an RA alt upset that noobies got three of your carriers, OR you're the one in gallente militia that called your RA friends to help you in FW with caps, and they're a bit upset at you now cos they lost said carriers. |
shuckstar
Hauling hogs
CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:06:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Kaishain
So the militia is engaging in normal conflicts but have the luxury of not being able to get wardecced?
How can non-FW corps and alliances retaliate when militias decides to screw with their business?
Good point, but altho you cant wardec individual Militia members, you can still war dec the corps that signed up. Not the same i know, maybe they should let us war dec a Militia as a whole.
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Gralgathor
White Wolf Enterprises
Harmonious Ascent
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:09:00 -
[88]
What's with all this RA rear-end kissing? I respect RA greatly, I was in LV and got my ... handed to me quite often by their pilots, but this time they made a mistake. They picked a fight with the new bully on the block, and they were soundly beaten.
It's called factional warfare, not alliance warfare. Stay out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat. |
ArmyOfMe
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:09:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Steve Celeste
Originally by: Pan Crastus
The Caldari Militia is the new BoB!
Must be because we planned all this at a BBQ.
is this max??? |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:14:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Kaishain
Also why is it that to you, them attacking us in FW areas where they have no business is ok but when we attack back its suddenly wrong?
I don't say it is wrong for you to attack them. I say it is wrong that they don't have the ability to retaliate in a way that they would (possibly) retaliate on any other entity attacking them.
well its not like the militia can do anything to realy hurt alliences is it?
We cant hit them in high sec or go for their 0.0 empires so its a fair match. All we are worried about are the FW low sec systems. As far as I see it RA have been openly hostile to the caldari state and thus are now a target of oppertunity in our systems.
Personaly unless I find an RA flashing red I wont be engaging them on the spot. |
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