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Why not end the pretence and make highsec a safezone?

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Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:24:00 - [181] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby added: Seriously though, I don't want anyone to leave over an clarification of a GAME. But CCP has been saying for the last year and a half players were taking things beyond game intentions. No, they haven't. They have continuously stated that risk vs reward should apply and that Eve should be a "cold and harsh" universe for everyone. Those are some of the justifications they used for the current high sec pvp nerf, and for the nano nerf. It becomes more and more clear that by saying that risk vs reward should apply for "all players" they really mean "all PvPers". High sec dwelling PvErs are to be excempt from this. Again, thank you Greyscale for making it clear. Also, until the war dec nerfs goes through I will make it my mission to grief as many players out of the game as possible. Just as a small sign of protest. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Eaton d'Sorder	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:24:00 - [182] So to kill a mission whoring isk farmer in a mission hub... you will now need to organise around 10 or 12 torp ravens. Ans then rat for the equivalnet of 200 hours in 0.0 to get yoru sec back. it never ceases to amaze me how the pvp crowd whine about 'having' to rat for hours..... wow such punishment, you 'have' to do what all the carebears want to do.... they just want to do it without someone warping in and interrupting them.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei United Front Alliance	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:31:00 - [183] Originally by: Malcanis Suicide ganking is metagamey, but it's caused in the first place by the implacable nature of CONCORD. If instead of being buffed, CONCORD was made escapable (not easily or simply, but at least possibly), players engaging in ganking might be inclined to use ships that would potentially survive. Imagine a high speed chase with the loot to the nearest lo-sec system with CONCORD in hot pursuit: that would have to be well planned, and take lots of player skill. It would in fact be awesome. Lots of excitement, lots of risk, lots of fun. Ok, that would be indeed awesome. It might be an Idea to look at, after Speed of Cruiser sized ships has been nerfed and also the abuse of Insurance is gone. Maybe CCP could create a Smuggler Stargates of various Pirate Factions in Empire. The Gates are unguarded by Concord, Police or Sentries but only accessable if you have really good standings with the Pirate Faction which operates the Gate. Also it could be made so that Speed in which Concord responds to small ships is limited. So in the end we have a mechanic that allows, maybe a Gang of Interceptors to swarm a target like Piranhas, get their loot and escape while being chased by Police. But this is only a rough idea and would be very hard to implement, balance and then stop loopholes before they can be exploited in this.
Faife Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:32:00 - [184] ccp is griefing griefers - -
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:33:00 - [185] Originally by: Eaton d'Sorder So to kill a mission whoring isk farmer in a mission hub... Mission grinding isk farmer in mission hub is not a bad thing as long as it's not some isk seller. I would go as far as to guess that it is usually some alt trying to keep his main in combat ships to pewpew more.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:34:00 - [186] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Eaton d'Sorder So to kill a mission whoring isk farmer in a mission hub... Mission grinding isk farmer in mission hub is not a bad thing as long as it's not some isk seller. I would go as far as to guess that it is usually some alt trying to keep his main in combat ships to pewpew more. If that isn't a reason to kill them, I don't know what legitimate reason is. Killing a pewpew alt seems much more logical and 'legit' than going after an isk seller. Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:35:00 - [187] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: CCP Greyscale long post Much like Malcanis already said, thank you for explaining that the old days are gone. The dog-eat-dog world we grew to love is being replaced by a world where 'consentual' and 'fair' are the key words. That is very good to know, because it makes the decision of wether or not to continue playing the game much easier. Now, if you could have said this two years ago I needn't have bothered signing up in the first place. Ah, well, don't try and say you haven't had some fun in the meanwhile Ki. Very well, so hi-sec is be be the safe happy playground. It's been confirmed pretty much explicitly. Well OK, we can work with that, as I've said before. Of course it makes it valueless for players like you and me, but those are the breaks. I'm going to step up the campaign for "the promised lands", I think. it's worth a try before I abandon the investment I've made. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Reckless Corsairs	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:37:00 - [188] So how does that tie to the devs of old ganking people in their cruise kestrels?
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:37:00 - [189] Originally by: Eaton d'Sorder So to kill a mission whoring isk farmer in a mission hub... you will now need to organise around 10 or 12 torp ravens. Ans then rat for the equivalnet of 200 hours in 0.0 to get yoru sec back. it never ceases to amaze me how the pvp crowd whine about 'having' to rat for hours..... wow such punishment, you 'have' to do what all the carebears want to do.... they just want to do it without someone warping in and interrupting them. Because ratting is boring. And people really can warp in and interrupt you while you're doing it as well. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:38:00 - [190] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada So how does that tie to the devs of old ganking people in their cruise kestrels? Those devs are gone. They were "killing the game". (Don't look at those subscription igures that managed to rise through the horrible times of possible ganking, hi-sec "griefing" etc ) CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.

Chiggie	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:38:00 - [191] I strongly agree with the idea of retribution. We should be able to do whatever you want in this game, but there will be consequences. So what are the solutions? Hard to say, I'm sure I do not have them all. But for one how about making the freighters and haulers a wee bit tougher. As seems pretty stupid to me that a a Minor Capital ship such as a freighter cannot mount a single modules. Give them defense capability and maybe drones or something like that. Being able to mount a DC II and shield or armor mods would make a freighter gank more survivable, for the freighter anyway. I like the concord response and Sec Level hit changes those makes sense to me. But really, having a billion ISK cap ship that takes a week and a have to align and warp, and not able to help itself is just stupid.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:38:00 - [192] Originally by: Malcanis Ah, well, don't try and say you haven't had some fun in the meanwhile Ki. Very well, so hi-sec is be be the safe happy playground. It's been confirmed pretty much explicitly. Well OK, we can work with that, as I've said before. Of course it makes it valueless for players like you and me, but those are the breaks. I'm going to step up the campaign for "the promised lands", I think. it's worth a try before I abandon the investment I've made. Yeah, there's been some good times. It's sad that a great game like Eve will go down the same drain as games like UO and SWG. I always had such high respect for the CCP devs, and I always figured that, even if I didn't understand a change, it was made to improve the game according to the original vision. Those days are gone. I suppose that battle ground PvP can be fun for a while. Gonna test it out. Otherwise I can always try out WoW. It's a much better PvE game than Eve. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:39:00 - [193] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada So how does that tie to the devs of old ganking people in their cruise kestrels? The devs of old are managers and big dogs now, and have more important things to take care of. Like managing the many underling developers working on EvE, WoD, and various other projects. Hell, I don't know. After five years of working on a game, I might be sick and tired of it. I know many of the devs used to be players, too, and such. I wouldn't be surprised if the newer guys still have an account or three, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the older crew gave EvE the Larry Bird and went about their merry way whistling Dixie. Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:39:00 - [194] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Malcanis Ah, well, don't try and say you haven't had some fun in the meanwhile Ki. Very well, so hi-sec is be be the safe happy playground. It's been confirmed pretty much explicitly. Well OK, we can work with that, as I've said before. Of course it makes it valueless for players like you and me, but those are the breaks. I'm going to step up the campaign for "the promised lands", I think. it's worth a try before I abandon the investment I've made. Yeah, there's been some good times. It's sad that a great game like Eve will go down the same drain as games like UO and SWG. I always had such high respect for the CCP devs, and I always figured that, even if I didn't understand a change, it was made to improve the game according to the original vision. Those days are gone. I suppose that battle ground PvP can be fun for a while. Gonna test it out. Otherwise I can always try out WoW. It's a much better PvE game than Eve. You mean FW? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:43:00 - [195] Originally by: Malcanis You mean FW? Well, FW or all low sec PvP. Most of 0.0 too. Don't you know: If you want PvP, go to low sec or 0.0. That's what it's there for. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Holy Lowlander Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:44:00 - [196] the day you can't shoot someone in highsec without a wardec .. is the day when eve becomes WoW in space .... Quote: woot I wants a toy arbitrator !!! :O
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:47:00 - [197] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ruze Originally by: Cygnus Zhada So how does that tie to the devs of old ganking people in their cruise kestrels? The devs of old are managers and big dogs now, and have more important things to take care of. Like managing the many underling developers working on EvE, WoD, and various other projects. Hell, I don't know. After five years of working on a game, I might be sick and tired of it. I know many of the devs used to be players, too, and such. I wouldn't be surprised if the newer guys still have an account or three, but I also wouldn't be surprised if the older crew gave EvE the Larry Bird and went about their merry way whistling Dixie. Reading the blogs, it's hard to escape the niggling suspicion that a certain dev is ****ed off after getting suicide-ganked. I doubt it's that blatent. It seems more probable that the newer dev crew is actually younger, and is more familiar with games like EQII and DAoC, and less familiar with old UO, or old SWG, etc. The sandbox style has shown that it markets to far fewer players than the linear 'open ended' system, and it's discomforting to those individuals who were raised to think that someone will always be there to protect them. If you were raised to believe that the world is rough and people are mean, to protect yourself and take responsibility for your actions and choices ... EvE seems to appeal to you. Whereas games where some NPC protects you from the grievances of others is slightly disturbing. I don't play games for utopia. I prefer a little more realism than the mass markets have. I don't like playing a game like WoW, where the developers impose their morals and values, and lower the level of interaction between players to the lowest level possible, and punish and ban anyone for committing scams and whatnot. Course, I'm also not the type of person who expects God to punish the evil people in the world and leave the innocents alone. You have to be pretty dense to not see the facts that lots of evil people grow to ripe old ages, and lots of innocent people die young or are put in jail for a crime they didn't commit. Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Malcanis RuffRyders Axiom Empire	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:49:00 - [198] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Malcanis You mean FW? Well, FW or all low sec PvP. Most of 0.0 too. Don't you know: If you want PvP, go to low sec or 0.0. That's what it's there for. Indeed. BTW not all 0.0 fighting is dull-as-ditchwater POS shooting or ultra-blobbing. In fact I've joined my current corp precisely because I like roams. Don't join a naplander alliance - hook up with someone like Outbreak or Tri if you go to 0.0. Can I count on your support for an expansion of 0.0 space as prototyped in my "Let's work this out" thread? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jei Li	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:49:00 - [199] Edited by: Jei Li on 02/09/2008 16:52:02 new people dont have the knowledge or experience of most of you. there many that go to hi sec to mess with new people just because they can i pay for my game, and if i wished to be attacked or messed with i'd go to lower sec areas. Point is that hi sec is for learning i believe is it not? Seems that many of you like toying with new people so why not pay for our game then you can do as you wish. you all were new were you not? so leave us new people alone in 1.0 sec or buy my eve
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:49:00 - [200] Well that (Greyscale's Comments) pretty much clear things up.. Killing for "lulz" is not where CCP Wants(wanted) to go..neither is players abusing system mechanics so they can hide from those who kill for "Lulz" (Psycopaths is the word I'm thinking here). Unfortuanltely they have not been able to (as of yet) come up with a system that get rid of both. So the situation we have now today is the result. Killing in a reasonable in-game context is.. you have to have a better reason than "because I want to" but who determines What a "Good Reason" is..(hint the initials start with C.C...) in any event we now have a good idea of what is "Not" a good reason so the Sandbox psychos will be very unhappy. Psychopaths (in-game not RL though some is going to misconstue my context) are going to get dealt with harshly (cold harsh world indeed but it usually is for crazy people). So those who like to kill "because they can" can contract me their stuff on their way out the door that leads to Counter Strike... (LoL) Those who wanted clarification on What CCP's goal is, well now you got it.. Time to put your money where your virtual mouths are. (in my wallet preferably).. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod

Tia Tzu Caldari G.E.A.R.	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:50:00 - [201] I agree CCP have been beating around the bush a bit on this but I still have little sympathy for your viewpoint. It takes zero skill to sit on a gate and gank afk noobs autopiloting through empire. High sec ganking only reached its current level after CCP introduced warp to zero a while back. So the difference is the people who used to sit on low sec gates ganking players who didnt have bookmark sets for every region in the game, now sit in high sec doing exactly the same thing. Don't get me wrong i agree that eve is a sandbox and we should be free to play however we like. but stop pretending it takes any more skill to do what you do than it does to mine veldspar in 1.0 space.
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:52:00 - [202] Originally by: Threv Echandari neither is players abusing system mechanics so they can hide from those who kill for "Lulz" (Psycopaths is the word I'm thinking here). Where does he state this? I think it would be quite obvious by now that exploiting mechanics to avoid combat (loggoffski, corp hopping etc...) is a-ok, but exploiting mechanics to initiate combat is not. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
E'Pock	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:52:00 - [203] So basically, and let em see if i can sum this up right. PvPs want the same "rights" as "carebears". PvPs are pretty much "Pirates" PvPs dont want to have any "Penelties" for acting like "Pirates" PvPs pretty much think by breaking the law they shouldnt loose something in return. If PvPs were in real life, instead of cyberspace, doing the same things they are doing in EVE would they be allowed to get insurance?....would they not be subject to the law?....if they want to be PvPers then I think its all fair for it to be harder on them and they need to stop whining about it. Look at the Pirates of old...were they not hunted down for crimes...were they not allowed into certain ports becasue of unlawful acts....get a grip people. You do the crime, and in this case being a pirate(PvPer) is a crime, you have to do the time. I keep hearing "i have to do this and i have to do that because i wanted to kill someone or steal something"....well even tho its a game there still has to be "rules"...get use to it....its called life and in here you chose to be a PvPer...no one made you do it...no one forced you to become one..so in essance the only person you can blame is yourself...not the makers of the game.
Gevic	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:54:00 - [204] Edited by: Gevic on 02/09/2008 16:56:35 Why are they changing the wardec system in favour of the defenders, when the defenders can already constantly corp hop, turning the system into a eve version of whack a mole in the first place? Or simply hop to an NPC corp and set up a private channel amongst themselves, avoiding the wardec system altogether? And why say they are interested in shifting the current mechanics of non-consentual pvp in hisec purely towards logistics in the age of jump freighters, cyno alts and jump bridges? These things already allow logistics to be near impossible to disrupt in 0.0, and now they want to make it more difficult in high sec as well? It's already hard enough to snag any of those ships, since more often than not, they are flown by competent pilots surrounded by other competent pilots with various tools at their disposal that make the prospect of taking them out prohibitively expensive if not impossible. Greyscale states that making supply lines via blanket immunity is undesirable (and is one of the reasons why he isn't in favour of it), well isn't it (in hi sec) nearly invulnerable already? Really, often only through the use of the current wardec mechanic (which has been deemed pay-to-grief and thus undesirable) and hisec ganking mechanics, are they taken out. Well that and other metagaming tactics such as spies, are you going to find a way to fix that too ? He also states that by attaching a percieved risk, it (and I'm paraphrasing) allows newer players to acclimate to activities with greater risk later on. Yeah ok. Which is evident in the HORDES of people in lowsec and nullsec right? The people already willing to take the risk are already out there, while the those who aren't willing to take risks are going to be in high sec. And its going to stay that way, short of you implementing something that bypasses the current pvp mechanics altogether like a pvp flag. So really, how isn't all these changes (and the future changes that we can infer from this) pushing hisec towards blanket immunity from pvp anyway?
Fados Radically Awesome People Eaters	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:55:00 - [205] I can't wait to see what kind of ship Arthas will be flying
Ki An Gallente The Really Awesome Players	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:55:00 - [206] Originally by: E'Pock So basically, and let em see if i can sum this up right. PvPs want the same "rights" as "carebears". PvPs are pretty much "Pirates" PvPs dont want to have any "Penelties" for acting like "Pirates" PvPs pretty much think by breaking the law they shouldnt loose something in return. If PvPs were in real life, instead of cyberspace, doing the same things they are doing in EVE would they be allowed to get insurance?....would they not be subject to the law?....if they want to be PvPers then I think its all fair for it to be harder on them and they need to stop whining about it. Look at the Pirates of old...were they not hunted down for crimes...were they not allowed into certain ports becasue of unlawful acts....get a grip people. You do the crime, and in this case being a pirate(PvPer) is a crime, you have to do the time. I keep hearing "i have to do this and i have to do that because i wanted to kill someone or steal something"....well even tho its a game there still has to be "rules"...get use to it....its called life and in here you chose to be a PvPer...no one made you do it...no one forced you to become one..so in essance the only person you can blame is yourself...not the makers of the game. Do you need a clue? I'll contract it for you in Dodixie. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.09.02 16:57:00 - [207] Originally by: Ki An Yeah, there's been some good times. It's sad that a great game like Eve will go down the same drain as games like UO and SWG. Ohh ohhh. Cool. I was already withing for that cruncing my popcorn. Well that or that 'wow in space' sentiment. In more serious note there is always doomprohpets out there telling us how EVE will die of this or that. Aint dead yet and will not be even after few people emoragequit over this or that. Be it then 'damn carebears' fretting about 'griefing' or 'hardcore pewpew guys' playing the 'wow in space' card.
Ruze Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:00:00 - [208] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Threv Echandari neither is players abusing system mechanics so they can hide from those who kill for "Lulz" (Psycopaths is the word I'm thinking here). Where does he state this? I think it would be quite obvious by now that exploiting mechanics to avoid combat (loggoffski, corp hopping etc...) is a-ok, but exploiting mechanics to initiate combat is not. Actually, using in-game mechanics to avoid combat IS wrong. Check out the first MWD nerf, the first nano nerf, the first stab nerf, the new nano nerf ... the primary reason for these nerfs (besides the latest 'it's hurting the server') is because they don't want people to escape from combat. Well, it's wrong until you get into noob corps and hisec. Then avoiding combat is a-ok. And using cloaks and loggoffski's ... Ruze Ashkor'Murkon Security File
Aodha Khan Minmatar The Paratwa FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:00:00 - [209] Edited by: Aodha Khan on 02/09/2008 17:01:47 Originally by: Le Skunk PVP IS being remove from high sec. Wardecs have been called by a CCP bod "a pay to grief system". And are "high priority". They are next. url to any CCP employee stating this? If so, looks like another Ultima Online Trammel... NO, you cant have my stuff......yet. Paratwa Recruitment
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2008.09.02 17:03:00 - [210] Originally by: Ki An Originally by: Threv Echandari neither is players abusing system mechanics so they can hide from those who kill for "Lulz" (Psycopaths is the word I'm thinking here). Where does he state this? I think it would be quite obvious by now that exploiting mechanics to avoid combat (loggoffski, corp hopping etc...) is a-ok, but exploiting mechanics to initiate combat is not. I'm Refering to this... Originally by: CCP Greyscale ....the fact that the wardec system does exist and that what's being discussed is a modification to remove just the undesirable side-effects and to try and avoid making substantive changes to the feature in the meantime I think speaks volumes about how serious we are about enabling the type of gameplay permitted by the wardec system as used according to its above-described purpose. All that said though, the ability to easily create conditions where a player corp can arbitrarily bypass the penalties for non-consensual combat in highsec space is unjustifiable as a design goal (My Intepretation..Refers to Suicide Ganking), and indeed flatly contradicts core design elements (the existance of highsec space) for no good reason. This applies doubly so while the mechanics necessarily compel players to leave social structures (corporations) in order to avoid becoming victim to such mechanics. (My Intepretation..Refers to corp hopping) ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod



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