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Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2008.11.10 20:08:00 - [1] So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered?
ArmyOfMe 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.11.10 20:11:00 - [2] nah, amarr isnt overpowerd, its more a matter of the other races being underpowerd Originally by: deadmaus Because by the time we had calmed Plague down after he heard BoB were back in the vicinity it was too late to do anything
K'Ji	Posted - 2008.11.10 20:14:00 - [3] Obvious troll is obvious.
Artemis Rose Varion Galactic Accord Corporate Enterprise Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.10 20:25:00 - [4] I see the trolls are getting warmed up on the "Nerf Amarr" threads. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.11.10 20:26:00 - [5] Originally by: Artemis Rose I see the trolls are getting warmed up on the "Nerf Amarr" threads. I've never noticed your sig being so appropriate. ;-) -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire Liang/Vanesca - Order/Iron Rock@WAR www.kwikdeath.org
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:46:00 - [6] Amarr is pretty fine with its laser boats (they are mid range weapons), its that other turrets fail to do what they are designed for... - Quantum Rise... nerfing the unnerfable! Sponsored by CCP
Lili Lu Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:49:00 - [7] Edited by: Lili Lu on 10/11/2008 21:51:37 What?! So my lasers don't suck my cap dry anymore no matter how many cap affecting skills I've trained to 5?! And my lasers will do more than just EM with smigde of thermal?! And Plates will not make me a brick anymore, and armor will passively regen?! And Amarr is going to be kickass because all my ships get either double 20% EW range/strength bonii or double 10% turret optimal bonii, and noone has the speed to close distance anymore?! And, tracking disrupters will take the place of ECM in that they will affect all weapons systems and the ability of my foes to rep each other?! Finally Amarr is no longer on the bottom but indeed on top! Take that Caldari! Sweeeeeeeeeet!!!
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:52:00 - [8] Originally by: ArmyOfMe nah, amarr isnt overpowerd, its more a matter of the other races being underpowerd Agreed. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2008.11.10 21:53:00 - [9] blasters and AC have higher tracking than lasers, go close, amarrian ships are not known for their utility and in large gangs none of this matters, you will have probably support or other ships that are focused fired
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:00:00 - [10] This just in: Races are different.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:04:00 - [11] Cap drain and low mid-slot count on all Amarr ships balances it out nicely. Abaddon just firing Mega Pulse lasers almost use as much cap as running a dual LAR tank .. combined with one of the smallest cargo holds and you quickly realise why it's most popular in station camping/Empire scenarios. All other Amarr gunboats sacrifice a bonus to reduce this cap drain (EM/Therm restriction is no longer as appalling as it was so no longer an issue in my mind). All weapon systems will suffer to some extent after tomorrow and a lot of fittings will have to be revised. Just wish my pretty goldies had more mid slots so I can actually compensate for the web strength reduction
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again. See what you've done. Look what you did. Now shush.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Letifer Deus on 10/11/2008 22:35:34 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Cap drain and low mid-slot count on all Amarr ships balances it out nicely. Abaddon just firing Mega Pulse lasers almost use as much cap as running a dual LAR tank .. 52 is not "almost" as much as 72. Amarr "sacrificing" a slot is made up for by the fact that they have significantly higher DPS and tracking. That and amarr are supposed to plate tank, which uses zero cap. By the way, I fly amarr, I think they are fine how they are. As mentioned above, it's simply that the other races aren't able to do what they are supposed to do. Quote: Just wish my pretty goldies had more mid slots so I can actually compensate for the web strength reduction In my experience on SISI 2 webs doesn't give near enough benefit to warrant the extra slot usage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Vanthropy Minmatar	Posted - 2008.11.10 22:36:00 - [14] locus rigs (things that are making pulse lasers op) are actually being nerfed. so... everything's balanced again "SPEED + GANK = SPANK... Spank that ***** up"
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.10 23:21:00 - [15] Amarr are fine. We also got nerfed in this patch together with everyone else. Amarr pulses are the ones that gained most from a static sub 10km range encounters because of worst tracking of close range weaponry. They also nerfed locus rigs wich amarr had most use of. I think all is well after patch. Get on with the show. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Leon vanUber	Posted - 2008.11.10 23:25:00 - [16] They didn't NERF Locus rigs, they just applied the same stacking penalty as for other rigs/mods. It's nothing personal. I just want your stuff, and more importantly the fun of the fight.
Liang Nuren No Salvation	Posted - 2008.11.10 23:58:00 - [17] Originally by: Vanthropy locus rigs (things that are making pulse lasers op) are actually being nerfed. so... everything's balanced again There's quite a number of things that make lasers OP at this point, and most of them have to do with the fringe benefits of range. Also, you have to consider that Amarr are the only race that didn't get a major (e.g., game changing) nerf (Fixing locus rigs was not a major nerf). Really, Amarr were at the minimum very near overpowered before the patch - after the patch they are simply without peer. -Liang
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2008.11.11 00:26:00 - [18] Yes amarr is overpowered.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.11.11 00:34:00 - [19] What are the dps curves of javelin torps compared to megapulse and scorch on abaddon/geddon, both with and without range boosting rigs? What about fury cruise versus close range beam ammo? How many tackling/painting/other mods are required to reach that full dps potential?
Khanak Hryad Amarr BLACK 0RIGIN Red Dawn Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.11 00:41:00 - [20] Are you kidding me? Amarr are stuck with mainly EM damage, a trivial amount of thermal, and absolutley no exp or kin unless missiles and drones are used. Lasers use up the most cap of all the weapon types. And even if after the patch we are overpowered, its about damn time, because before Revalations (with the update that lowered all EM armor res) we were at the bottom of the pile. And to that clown who said "amarr are supposed to plate tank" you're a clown. You're probably saying that Minnies shouldn't be using shield boosters either, are you? Passive plate tanking is just 1 option available, and the drawbacks are huge (very slow, less agile, huge sig rad) compared to just the cap usage of the armor reps. /* This be a sig */ Free bottle of rum to the first 3 who mod this sig!
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.11 00:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Khanak Hryad Are you kidding me? Amarr are stuck with mainly EM damage, a trivial amount of thermal, and absolutley no exp or kin unless missiles and drones are used. Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive). Cba to respond to the rest of your post but: amarr are best race now and in some cases overpowered (zealot anyone?). And im saying this as mostly (some gall HAcs) amarr pilot.
Nexus Kinnon Neo Spartans	Posted - 2008.11.11 00:53:00 - [22] **** off stab wounds
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.11 01:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Amarr are fine. We also got nerfed in this patch together with everyone else. Amarr pulses are the ones that gained most from a static sub 10km range encounters because of worst tracking of close range weaponry. They also nerfed locus rigs wich amarr had most use of. I think all is well after patch. Get on with the show. As of the day after patch I'll be able to use all the Amarrian ships I care to use in full T2 fits. I'm not sold on training up the battleship weapons and whatnot - that will have to wait until after I see how differently the Raven handles isk grinding. On the other hand, I was shocked at how easy it is to train for a new race once you have most T2 ships. A few gun skills and a few ship skills and presto - it's like you've been there all along. I don't know WHY I had all those armor tanking skills trained though (seriously, why did my caldari pilot have the ability to use T2 EANM's? What was I smoking when I trained that?)
Yoko Lee Caldari	Posted - 2008.11.11 01:07:00 - [24] some neutra and amarr ship die
Zo5o Longcat is Long	Posted - 2008.11.11 01:25:00 - [25] Quote: And even if after the patch we are overpowered, its about damn time, because before Revalations (with the update that lowered all EM armor res) we were at the bottom of the pile. Previous imbalances justify current imbalances. FLAWLESS LOGIC.
R'yleh Kadath	Posted - 2008.11.11 01:53:00 - [26] Edited by: R''yleh Kadath on 11/11/2008 01:53:50 Amarr BS's are pretty useless against angel. That's if you like to run missions. I trained amarr because of the relatively low need to buy ammo but on some occasions wish I had the versatility of a caldari ship. My skills aren't great but have noticed that below 8k with pulse or beams I'm much better off just sitting there and waiting for drones to do their business (cruiser size and below).
Madla Mafia Brutor tribe	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:01:00 - [27] Shut it! Amarr aren't overpowered, the are just in line with all the other races. Live with it! ------------------------------------------ Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
Rajere No Trademark	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:17:00 - [28] Amarr was pretty much overpowered before the patch, now not as much. btw Optimal != Tracking -------------------------- NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:25:00 - [29] Originally by: R'yleh Kadath Edited by: R''yleh Kadath on 11/11/2008 01:53:50 Amarr BS's are pretty useless against angel. That's if you like to run missions. I trained amarr because of the relatively low need to buy ammo but on some occasions wish I had the versatility of a caldari ship. My skills aren't great but have noticed that below 8k with pulse or beams I'm much better off just sitting there and waiting for drones to do their business (cruiser size and below). .... Eh? I had an alt using an abaddon, mounting tachyons, with only two post-nerf unscripted tracking computers able to hit all the angel ships that really mattered in L4 missions, and shredding them. I imagine it's a matter of tactics. ___________ As for the main topic of the thread, I agree, Amarr ships need to be nerfed. First lets increase the cap usage of blasters and lower the tracking speed of autocannons. Next we need to lower the rep. bonuses from ships like the hyperion and maelstrom from 7.5%/level to 5%. Finally, all missile damage should be cut in half. That ought to seriously nerf amarr ships. Why would that nerf amarr ships you ask? Simple, that would get every last bloody stupid idiot out of Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente ships and put every single mentally deficient useless excuse for a chair warmer into amarr ships. All those morons flying amarr ships would be a serious nerf to amarr ships as a whole. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:25:00 - [30] Really stop those goddamn nerf posts. I guess if CCP continues with those nerf patches, we will soon fit snowball launchers from hell to our noobships. Amarr are most probably the only race worth flying these days. Mkay. So please buff our wonderful Caldari and Minmatar ships, and maybe even those of the frogs. A good start would be Caldari rail ships, if one would ask me
Durethia Black Plague.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:28:00 - [31] Amarr lasers are overpowered.
Kingwood Amarr Emos and Cowboys	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:54:00 - [32] AND ON TO THE NEXT NERF! Seriously, I can't believe people are crying for the next one already. Why don't we just ask CCP to remove all Ships and weapon systems except one?
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? Caldari need a nerf after this missile boost tbh. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Kingwood Amarr Emos and Cowboys	Posted - 2008.11.12 00:56:00 - [34] Ships are still going way too fast, tbh. Moar nerf please!
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:02:00 - [35] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 01:02:41 Originally by: Kingwood Ships are still going way too fast, tbh. Moar nerf please! No, nerf missiles! Hey, this is a caldari troll thread after all. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:16:00 - [36] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? Caldari need a nerf after this missile boost tbh. Don't know about a nerf but tbh they should be the bew FOTM now. Just did some testing with a corp mate and a Geddon can't hit anything at all moving now. Tried a few different ships, but basically, with no speed mods, all you have to do is orbit at any range. For example, a cruiser moving at base speed (185) and a 10k orbit took about 1 hit out of 14 shots, take that inside of 5k and he didn't get hit at all as soon as the orbit was set. ------ // This is by design. When a ship jumps through a gate, it clears all aggression. // - BH ******** Pew on gate, if it gets hot, jump through and Ctrl-Q. Game mechanic endorsed by CCP.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:21:00 - [37] Originally by: Crazy Tasty Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? Caldari need a nerf after this missile boost tbh. Don't know about a nerf but tbh they should be the bew FOTM now. Yeah, but they're complaining because unlike turrets which deal 0 DPS without properly tackled opponents they deal low DPS without properly tackled opponents and that is unfair. Somehow. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Karl Luckner I guess if CCP continues with those nerf patches, we will soon fit snowball launchers from hell to our noobships. Snowball launchers have already been nerfed and their ammo force-melted. Originally by: Cpt Branko Yeah, but they're complaining because unlike turrets which deal 0 DPS without properly tackled opponents they deal low DPS without properly tackled opponents and that is unfair. Somehow. Don't forget that at 0m range turrets always miss the target while missiles always hit. Forcing missiles to hit targets at such an impossibly low range is really unfair and turrets need to be nerfed to compensate for that too. ___________ Number of times required to log in to make this post: 2 ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:31:00 - [39] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 12/11/2008 01:32:11 The problem with missiles isn't against small ships, it's against same-size ships. Right now, a ship with only a MWD or AB gets damage reduction, which is just stupid. MWD/AB are mandatory for range control, making them also tank modules is like making a warp disruptor give you the passive shield tank of a Drake. And yes, it's different than guns, but there are two other key differences: 1) Gunboats that are designed to fight outside web range do not require a webbed target to deal damage effectively. A Zealot has no problem hitting a non-webbed cruiser. On the other hand, a Cerberus, despite having even longer range, needs a web/painter on the target to hit effectively. Or really, it needs more people in the gang to web/paint, so yay blobbing. 2) Guns have higher base damage to offset their tracking issues, while missiles were balanced around lower, but more consistent damage. By setting the damage reduction threshold so low, you end up with missiles that have all the drawbacks of guns, but lack the benefit that makes guns worth it. But like I said, what it hurts most is missile ships solo and in small gangs. Now you either need web/painter support, or you need more missile ships to offset the reduced damage. Either way, it means bringing a bigger blob, and one more blow to those of us who don't like huge blobs. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Merin Ryskin But like I said, what it hurts most is missile ships solo and in small gangs. Now you either need web/painter support, You need a web+scram (which is the mandatory module to score kills at close range for everyone. When you talk about pre WCS nerf days, for short range ships they're back) vs same size ships using a MWD. Dual webs minimum if they use a afterburner, which is again gimped for solo PVP. It sucks for solo and small gang PVP in general. As for smaller targets, missiles are essentially superior unless you use neutralizers and/or ECM drones, when guns become superior (at more slots expended though!). Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Shardrael Caldari Titan Industries Technology Team Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2008.11.12 01:43:00 - [41] luckly it takes so many damn skills at 5 to use lasers properly that by the time all the fotm'ers train em up there will be a new fotm to switch to. --------------------
Gunner Chick	Posted - 2008.11.12 02:26:00 - [42] Edited by: Gunner Chick on 12/11/2008 02:26:53 Liang, quit your whining. no seriously, all you post is drizzle that combats change affecting your babies. CCP will nerf amarr when they are ready if in fact it is actually needed. Atm, no its not. if anything they will enhance the other guns to better compensate if there is trully a void.
Moonlord	Posted - 2008.11.12 03:35:00 - [43] So this is where all the crybabies flying missions in caldariships and solo gallente ships have gathered. I doubt many of u have even set foot in a amarr ship ever seeing how u argue amarr is overpowered. For your information amarr is by far the least versitile race: EM/thermal damage only, least midslots of all, capuse from hell with lasers, no the tracking aint uber as they are worse then both gal and minm short range weapons and add CPU or PG issues on half the ships to that and see how overpowered they are. Sure if u sit around in the optimal range of an abaddon with no transversal it will deal damage, but what do you realy expect? Take advantage of their massive weaknesses and it will be a completely diffrent ballgame. About the missilenerf it was about time caldari missionrobots got a nerf as they were in all fairness not in line with the other races. Im also happy to see that the long forgotten assaultfrigs now has a role, it was about time. Im abit more hesitant on to see how the speedchanges affects blasterships however im sure they wont be useless either way.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Cpt Branko Yeah, but they're complaining because unlike turrets which deal 0 DPS without properly tackled opponents they deal low DPS without properly tackled opponents and that is unfair. Somehow. My whole complaint with the nano theory was the simple fact that I was unable to actually deliver damage of any reasonable (i.e. able to generate a kill given infinte time) level of damage to targets. I originally thought it was ALL weapons that had the problem and you (quite correctly) pointed out it was a more or less missile specific issue. I confirmed this when I trained my first amarrian skills (at medium energy turret IV, amarr cruiser IV and minimial support skills I was able to actually deliver damage by managing transversal just using crapy t1 gear on an OMEN). I have not yet played this brave new version of eve so I can't comment on it. I suspect missiles will at least generate SOME quantity of damage, and that's a hell of an improvement over what used to happen (i.e. I had to fit precision lights and explosion velocity rigs and hope for the best). Of course, if missiles are terrible I only have 12 hours until the last of my prerequs to use all amarrian ships through BC (other than CS) are done so I can always fall back on that.
CherniyVolk Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:29:00 - [45] Amarr lasers are vastly overpowered. CCP is blatantly ignoring this fact and I don't know why. It's not even arguable, it's comedic how **ing overpowered the damn lasers are. It is straight out of Alice in Wonderland, CCP all gathered round the table developing a bull** story as to why lasers need to be at their current stats. CCP YOU CAN HAVE 90% EM and THE RESISTS AND T1 LASERS OF A LOWER CLASS WILL VASTLY OUT DAMAGE T2 BLASTERS WITH T2 VOID AMMO! It's **ing stupid how obvious it is. A damn zealot is able to melt practically anything, and I'm not talking "give it some time..." I'm talking about the Zealot's lasers MELTING ! No time! Doesn't take much time at all! Dual rep, doesn't matter, the lasers will eat your tank between cycles! It's stupid! First off, BLASTERS are supposed to be more powerful. If anything is "melting", it should be blasters! There's no sense in LASERS BEING MORE POWERFUL THAN BLASTERS AND** GIVE THEM THAT MUCH RANGE! Oh, as if 90% EM and THE isn't enough.... what does CCP go and do? Drop 10% off of the EM resistances of all Armor vessels... great, thanks alot. Not only are lasers overpowered.... but now we have less resistance to them.... thanks a lot.
Normin Bates	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:44:00 - [46] You whiners are raytarded...begging for another nerf already because you dont have a "i win" button. Why not adapt and use your friggin brains instead of crying every 5 minutes? If you loser scrubs have your way in 6 months the only weapon available will be a damn sling-shot!
Crazy Tasty Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:49:00 - [47] Originally by: CherniyVolk Amarr lasers are vastly overpowered. CCP is blatantly ignoring this fact and I don't know why. It's not even arguable, it's comedic how **ing overpowered the damn lasers are. It is straight out of Alice in Wonderland, CCP all gathered round the table developing a bull** story as to why lasers need to be at their current stats. CCP YOU CAN HAVE 90% EM and THE RESISTS AND T1 LASERS OF A LOWER CLASS WILL VASTLY OUT DAMAGE T2 BLASTERS WITH T2 VOID AMMO! It's **ing stupid how obvious it is. A damn zealot is able to melt practically anything, and I'm not talking "give it some time..." I'm talking about the Zealot's lasers MELTING ! No time! Doesn't take much time at all! Dual rep, doesn't matter, the lasers will eat your tank between cycles! It's stupid! First off, BLASTERS are supposed to be more powerful. If anything is "melting", it should be blasters! There's no sense in LASERS BEING MORE POWERFUL THAN BLASTERS AND GIVE THEM THAT MUCH RANGE! Oh, as if 90% EM and THE isn't enough.... what does CCP go and do? Drop 10% off of the EM resistances of all Armor vessels... great, thanks alot. Not only are lasers overpowered.... but now we have less resistance to them.... thanks a lot. And that brings me to my next lesson kids, Don't Smoke Crack. ------ // This is by design. When a ship jumps through a gate, it clears all aggression. // - BH ****** Pew on gate, if it gets hot, jump through and Ctrl-Q. Game mechanic endorsed by CCP.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.12 05:53:00 - [48] Originally by: Normin Bates You whiners are raytarded...begging for another nerf already because you dont have a "i win" button. Why not adapt and use your friggin brains instead of crying every 5 minutes? If you loser scrubs have your way in 6 months the only weapon available will be a damn sling-shot! It's entitlement logic really and you can't blame them. Some players have invested a substantial amount of resources to get their awesome ships of unstoppability. Afterall, they invest cash each month to play and portions of their LIVES to gain the skills (and ISK) required to dominate. When suddenly everything's taken away from them you're bound to be a bit ticked off. Granted, this doesn't mean you need to spread the discontent around but it's at least a legitimate option. Afterall, if one person's been screwed, why not screw as many people as possible?
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:46:00 - [49] Originally by: CherniyVolk Amarr lasers are vastly overpowered. CCP is blatantly ignoring this fact and I don't know why. It's not even arguable, it's comedic how **ing overpowered the damn lasers are. It is straight out of Alice in Wonderland, CCP all gathered round the table developing a bull story as to why lasers need to be at their current stats. ... Hm. 2 years ago people whined about how underpowered lasers were. Since then lasers have gotten how many boosts? I know of one for sure when pulse lasers got a tracking boost which made them better, though still inferior to ACs and blasters. Did either beam or pulse lasers in general or specific laser models get a cap cost reduction as well? Either way I find it funny how 2 years ago lasers were under-powered. 1.5 years ago they were under-powered. A year ago they were under-powered. 6 months ago they were... You guessed it, under-powered. Now, 6-12 months after the last direct change to lasers, they are magically over-powered. Y'know, I just don't see it. I mean, I've flown a nightmare, machariel, abaddon, armageddon, astarte, drake, raven, typhoon, hyperion, rokh, dominix, and even and eos and curse in L4 missions and I've not noticed any of them to be "over-powered" in relation to any other ship given their respective loadouts, capabilities, and my fitting/budget constraints. Maybe I'll find out that lasers are massively over-powered tomorrow when I take out my nightmare for a Sansha Massive Attack and load it with either an afterburner and pulse lasers or just mega beams. I rather doubt it but hey, I've seen crazier things than super-massive stealth-buffs over the last 2.5 years that I've been playing. Originally by:** CherniyVolk First off, BLASTERS are supposed to be more powerful. If anything is "melting", it should be blasters! There's no sense in LASERS BEING MORE POWERFUL THAN BLASTERS AND GIVE THEM THAT MUCH RANGE! At max skills a T2 tachyon on an armageddon pumps out 61 raw DPS at 5.3 cap/sec usage while a T2 425mm railgun on a megathron does 44 raw DPS at 3.3 cap/sec. The DPS/cap-use ratio is clearly in favor of the railgun. 61 / 5.3 * 3.3 = 37.98. Let's look at pulse lasers and blasters. 64 (pulse DPS) / 3.5 (pulse cap) * 2.4 (neutron cap) = 43.88. T2 neutron blasters on a megathron do 69 raw DPS, 5 more than pulse lasers and 22 more than they would if they had the same cap/DPS ratio as pulse lasers. Both sets of numbers are with reload times put in and max damage/cap use T1 ammo. Now, the armageddon gets a 10%/level reduction in cap cost and a 5% reduction in laser RoF while the megathron only gets a 5% boost to hybrid damage/level. So at respective battleship level 5 the armageddon gets a 50% reduction to cap cost and an effective 33% boost to DPS while the megathron only gets a 25% boost to DPS and on a turret per turret basis the megathron does more raw DPS for less cap regardless of whether it's beams/railguns or pulse/blasters being compared. The only mitigating factor I can think of is that the only race that has a T2 resistance against the primary laser damage are minmatar T2 ships with the EM bonus while every race except amarr has a thermal resistance. Of course amarr and caldari ships have a secondary resistance bonus to kinetic, gallente and minmatar ships a secondary to thermal, and caldari are primary thermal while gallente are primary kinetic. In other words virtually every T2 ship in the game will have a resistance bonus for at least one of the two damage types of hybrids while lasers are a little better off with only one race resisting the primary and 2 the secondary. Either way based on raw numbers alone lasers seem about as over-powered as a screen door on a submarine. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:49:00 - [50] Originally by: Derek Sigres It's entitlement logic really and you can't blame them. Some players have invested a substantial amount of resources to get their awesome ships of unstoppability. Afterall, they invest cash each month to play and portions of their LIVES to gain the skills (and ISK) required to dominate. When suddenly everything's taken away from them you're bound to be a bit ticked off. Granted, this doesn't mean you need to spread the discontent around but it's at least a legitimate option. Afterall, if one person's been screwed, why not screw as many people as possible? That sort of thing is exactly why I love the fact that my main character is, for all intents and purposes, a Jack of all Trades. JoaTs are really hard to seriously hurt no matter what the nerf is so I spend years of training and billions of isk to get a character who operates at 80-90% of the level of the specialists but does so with 3-5x the variety of ships and setups that they can and if one no longer works it's just one of a dozen or more. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Kingwood Amarr Emos and Cowboys	Posted - 2008.11.12 06:50:00 - [51] Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now. Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:00:00 - [52] Originally by: Shereza Either way I find it funny how 2 years ago lasers were under-powered. 1.5 years ago they were under-powered. A year ago they were under-powered. 6 months ago they were... You guessed it, under-powered. Now, 6-12 months after the last direct change to lasers, they are magically over-powered. Lasers have been good for a while, it's just taken people this long to realize it. But there were three major boosts: 1) EM armor resist nerf. Now the resist difference between lasers and other weapons is much smaller. 2) Pulse laser tracking boost. Obvious. 3) Introduction of rigs. Lasers get a huge bonus from locus rigs, ACs get a bonus from falloff rigs, but falloff sucks, and blasters still have zero range. Especially on the Zealot and Apoc, lasers now have a massive range advantage, and awesome tracking at optimal. Quote: At max skills a T2 tachyon on an armageddon pumps out 61 raw DPS at 5.3 cap/sec usage while a T2 425mm railgun on a megathron does 44 raw DPS at 3.3 cap/sec. The DPS/cap-use ratio is clearly in favor of the railgun. 61 / 5.3 * 3.3 = 37.98. Who cares about DPS/cap-use, every PvP ship is fitting a cap injector. It might have been relevant back before people realized that active tanking sucks and switched to capless buffer tanks, but now it's completely irrelevant. Even the Abaddon (no cap use bonus) can easily be cap-stable, and that's what counts. Quote: Let's look at pulse lasers and blasters. 64 (pulse DPS) / 3.5 (pulse cap) * 2.4 (neutron cap) = 43.88. T2 neutron blasters on a megathron do 69 raw DPS, 5 more than pulse lasers and 22 more than they would if they had the same cap/DPS ratio as pulse lasers. Both sets of numbers are with reload times put in and max damage/cap use T1 ammo. Again, cap use is irrelevant. And thank you for proving my point perfectly. The pulse laser does 92% of the blaster's DPS, with 330% of the range. Now, I'm not convinced that lasers are too powerful, as the main problem with blasters is metagame shifts killing solo PvP (where blasters are supposed to dominate). But it's absolutely stupid to say that lasers are weak and useless. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Feng Schui Minmatar Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:26:00 - [53] EM Damage has almost always been the best damage to deal to armor tankers. Do any of you really think that people hardened against EM damage if they armor tanked? lol. In fact, one of the LOWEST resists, on an armor tanker, is EM resists, unless they go full passive / eanm setup. In which case, Hi2U berserker II's. Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Zionysus	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:30:00 - [54] Originally by: Merin Ryskin 3) Introduction of rigs. Lasers get a huge bonus from locus rigs, ACs get a bonus from falloff rigs, but falloff sucks, and blasters still have zero range. Especially on the Zealot and Apoc, lasers now have a massive range advantage, and awesome tracking at optimal. If by awesome tracking you mean the worst tracking of short range weapons then yeah. now that webs no longer stop a target dead in its tracks its pretty easy to out-traverse short range lasers. long range is different and tracking makes much less of a difference there anyways. Quote: And thank you for proving my point perfectly. The pulse laser does 92% of the blaster's DPS, with 330% of the range. With worse tracking, worse fittings, worse cap use (not irrelevant when it means you are shoehorned into plate fittings. active tanking might suck, but plate+buffer doesnt, and running out of gogo juice while tanking gate guns and an enemy sucks. also, neuts + thin margin of cap stability while injecting combined with the prevalence of neuts mean that cap stability is hardly irrelevant) Quote: solo PvP (where blasters are supposed to dominate). Where did this idea come from? Seriously, did I miss the in-game description on neutron blaster cannon II that says "used for solo pvp dominating" because tbh, I don't see why one weapon system should dominate that arena given the dynamic nature of soloing.
Letifer Deus A Astroid Belt Lotto Syndicate	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:39:00 - [55] I believe the fact that Zionysus thinks an "EVE Personality Test" is important enough to put in his sig means whatever he says is not worth responding to. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Brought to you by the letter ARRR!"
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:39:00 - [56] Originally by: Zionysus If by awesome tracking you mean the worst tracking of short range weapons then yeah. now that webs no longer stop a target dead in its tracks its pretty easy to out-traverse short range lasers. long range is different and tracking makes much less of a difference there anyways. Ignore the little tracking number on the weapon info. What matters is tracking at each weapon's optimal range. In other words, how fast does a target have to orbit each ship to get damage reduction? You have to be going MUCH faster to get damage reduction at a laser's optimal than at a blaster's optimal. Oh, and forget about webs. Even frigate-size pulses are meant to fight outside web range. Cruiser- and battleship-size lasers go nowhere near web range if they can avoid it. Quote: With worse tracking, worse fittings, worse cap use (not irrelevant when it means you are shoehorned into plate fittings. active tanking might suck, but plate+buffer doesnt, and running out of gogo juice while tanking gate guns and an enemy sucks. also, neuts + thin margin of cap stability while injecting combined with the prevalence of neuts mean that cap stability is hardly irrelevant) Tracking is better. Fitting is irrelevant, as laser ships are balanced around the higher grid use. Cap stability is a tiny issue, while yes, neuts hurt, they hurt blaster ships just as much. But really, cap just isn't a problem once you remove the need to run armor reps. And I'd hardly call it "shoehorned". Active tanks just plain suck. It's like saying laser ships are "shoehorned" into fitting not-8x-civilian-shield-booster tanks. You're fitting passive tanks because buffer >>>> active for keeping you alive, the fact that it's also almost completely capless is just a nice little bonus. Quote: Where did this idea come from? Seriously, did I miss the in-game description on neutron blaster cannon II that says "used for solo pvp dominating" because tbh, I don't see why one weapon system should dominate that arena given the dynamic nature of soloing. Two reasons: 1) Solo PvP favors short-range setups, due to the need to web and scramble the target. What matters most is massive damage output to gank, get the loot, and GTFO, and blasters provide that. Also, the slot layout of blaster ships is perfect for solo PvP, with enough mids for the web/MWD/scram (and usually injector), but also enough lows for damage mods and armor tank. 2) Blaster ships have to be the best in some situation, and they suck for anything other than solo PvP. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Cynic Tool The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:43:00 - [57] ROTFLMFAO Everyone used to go AMARR SUCKS DONT USE THEM....ITS DA FAIL!!!!one!!11! Now its OMG AMARR RTFA(#4 BTW). You nerf armor comps just a little and everyone whines. wow. We all took the hit people, not just Caldari, Gallente and Minmatars My sig.
Cynic Tool The Imperial Assassins	Posted - 2008.11.12 07:49:00 - [58] Originally by: Feng Schui EM Damage has almost always been the best damage to deal to armor tankers. Do any of you really think that people hardened against EM damage if they armor tanked? lol. In fact, one of the LOWEST resists, on an armor tanker, is EM resists, unless they go full passive / eanm setup. In which case, Hi2U berserker II's. And to this, ARE YOU CRAZY??? Em used to be the WORST damage type for armor. Every race used to have a minimum of something like 60% on it base. Lasers wee made to destroy shields. Everyone knows the best on armor is explosive or thermal. My sig.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 08:37:00 - [59] Originally by: Cynic Tool Originally by: Feng Schui EM Damage has almost always been the best damage to deal to armor tankers. Do any of you really think that people hardened against EM damage if they armor tanked? lol. In fact, one of the LOWEST resists, on an armor tanker, is EM resists, unless they go full passive / eanm setup. In which case, Hi2U berserker II's. And to this, ARE YOU CRAZY??? Em used to be the WORST damage type for armor. Every race used to have a minimum of something like 60% on it base. Lasers wee made to destroy shields. Everyone knows the best on armor is explosive or thermal. Yes - but only on t1 ships. Now go into t2: 3 races tank thermal (caldari, gall, minmatar) 3 races tank kin (caldari, gall, amarr) 1 race tanks explo (amarr) 1 race tanks EM (minmatar) Suddenly explo and EM become 2 best damage types. And if you consider that every t2 armor tank (except amarr) uses explo hardener - you get ~60% on explo and 50% on EM resist. Even after adding 1-2x eanm and DC EM is still lowest resist. Here you go - your damage of choice vs most t2 ships: EM.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:10:00 - [60] First of OP is one of the worst trolls on the board, because he even fails at trolling. Originally by: ArmyOfMe nah, amarr isnt overpowerd, its more a matter of the other races being underpowerd This is absolutly correct. Minmatar and Gallente Turret Ships need a reballance(70-80% Web or better Tracking) to get usefull again(particular Blasters are useless now). This is for the diversity of her roles, if you nerf amarr instead everything would be inline with a broken system where nothing works in the way it used to. Reading something about "Neutron Blasters have not solo writen on her discription." is mostly bull** sorry but true. Neutron Blasters are fare from usefull behind anything that is not station hugging or solo/small Gang PVP, let alone the smaller ones with even less Range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by:** Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Ess Erbe Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:17:00 - [61] I can't believe people are calling for lasers, of all weapons, to be nerfed. Is this 2003?
arbiter reformed	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:19:00 - [62] i dont even no what im shouting aboout!!!!!!!!!! Signature removed as it was stretching the forums. Navigator
Amy Wang	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:36:00 - [63] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive). last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:40:00 - [64] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 11:41:34 Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive). last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes WTS: reading lessons for you Did you miss the part where i stated that its best vs t2 ships? For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die. EDIT: o yea i see you are one of those "ill respond to random post from start of the discussion before reading thru rest of it" guys. Next time do your homework and read it all or dont bother responding.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.12 11:46:00 - [65] Originally by: Deva Blackfire For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die. Not BS and BCs wich are the most common t1 ships in pvp. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Zenrir	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:04:00 - [66] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 11:41:34 Originally by: Amy Wang Originally by: Deva Blackfire Nowadays EM is one of best damage types to deal (almost tied with pure explosive). last time I looked the most popular tanking setup was plates, trimarks and an omni tank of dcu/eanms which has EM resist as highest resist still despite the base resist changes WTS: reading lessons for you Did you miss the part where i stated that its best vs t2 ships? For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die. EDIT: o yea i see you are one of those "ill respond to random post from start of the discussion before reading thru rest of it" guys. Next time do your homework and read it all or dont bother responding. I just love how u left out the majority of shiptypes to make your argument fit. Just because someone pointed out that flaw and made u look like a fool doesnt give u the right to exclude him from the discussion.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:08:00 - [67] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire For t1 doesnt matter - just hit them till they die. Not BS and BCs wich are the most common t1 ships in pvp. *loads Explosive missiles into Sacrilege's cargo hold.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:10:00 - [68] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 12:11:12 Originally by: Zenrir I just love how u left out the majority of shiptypes to make your argument fit. Just because someone pointed out that flaw and made u look like a fool doesnt give u the right to exclude him from the discussion. there are more-less same amount of t1 and t2 ships in game. But if you wish: all laser boats getting damage (so pretty much ones used in pvp, with exception of apoc who gets range instead of damage) will have a bit of advantage over ships of their own class (DPS wise). They also are able to care nice artray of drones or secondary damage systems that enable them to deal explo (achilles heel of most omni-armor tanks). Examples? Geddon - huge DPS + large drone bay = no problem with "omni armor tanks" (all depends on start range) Abaddon - never heard it had problems with omni tanks Omen - ****ty cruiser tbh (tier2) but still one of hardest hitters in its cattegory. Also never heard that they had problems breaking other cruiser ships. Also has drone bay and missile launcher slot (hard to fit tho) Harbinger - called one of best BCs in game. Wonder why - all it got is laser damage which surely shouldnt work vs omni-tanked BCs. 50m3 drone bay. Frigs? meh - lack of pure "damage dealer" frig. And thats it from t1 amarr ships who have comparable classess. Only problem is on frig vs frig level - on other levels amarr ships are very comparable or even better than their counterparts in other races arsenals. So tell me now - where do lasers suck or EM damage is bad?
Crellion Art of War Exalted.	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:28:00 - [69] I remember starting a thread in late 2006 warning people to stop this nerf this and nerf that idiocy because they ll ruing the game. All the ship&mod funboyz of course attacked my OP because "balancing" is your favorite part of EvE. Now I just sit back and laugh at you Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Linsyn	Posted - 2008.11.12 12:58:00 - [70] Surely with the fall off changes ,the sac took a hit the abaddon is now immoveable the curse looks like its in real trouble too, I'm not sure amarr got off with much
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.12 13:59:00 - [71] Originally by: Deva Blackfire So tell me now - where do laser boats suck or EM damage is bad? Uhm 1. Omen hardest hitter? You ever tasted the wrath of a thorax for example? 2. Those ships you mention are good regardless of dmg type. 3. What is the retribution then if it's not a pure damage dealer frig? ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:05:00 - [72] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 12/11/2008 14:05:28 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: Deva Blackfire So tell me now - where do laser boats suck or EM damage is bad? 1. Omen hardest hitter? You ever tasted the wrath of a thorax for example? I wrote "one of" not "the". Yes i know that blasterboats are better DPS wise than laser boats in every category. Still doesnt negate the fact that bboat and laserboat can go toe-to-toe in a fight. Quote: 2. Those ships you mention are good regardless of dmg type. And thats the point. Suddenly it doesnt matter if i use EM damage - its good. Whats better supposedly "bad EM damage vs armor tanks" holds its own ground there. Point proven? And some info: i know that lasers are pretty crap when used on non-damage bonused ships. but tbh so are other weapons (with small exception of ACs used on some setups to save cap or just to fit them like on ishtar). Quote: 3. What is the retribution then if it's not a pure damage dealer frig? I was only listing t1 ships because guy i quoted said i ignored them. And like i posted before: for t2 vs t2 amarr ships are even better off due to way people usually tank them (post somewhere on page 2).
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:25:00 - [73] Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now. Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx. While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:30:00 - [74] Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now. Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx. While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored. Or for example use web. Or a friend with web. Even better if he could use rapier/huginn/hyena. Also caldari ships maybe were hardest to nano but WHEN nanoed they were one of better constant damage dealers.
Pippan Gallente Armada.	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:35:00 - [75] lol Laser tracking sucks. Go close and watch that geddon try to stop you with his 3 midslots (1 is used for cap inject btw.) Nerf speed again damnit! Actually remove velocity completely and let us move around with cyno fields everywhere. Make eve a stillstanding slugfest!! No more whines!!! And nerf stacking too !1 anyway.. So stop crying noob.
Darkness consumes Amarr Isk Fiends	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:40:00 - [76] DONT NERF AMARR... seriously as my girlfriend posted a while ago if we keep nerfing ships this game will be useless and the onlyship worth flying will be the noobship stop the nerf hate just give minmatar gallente and caldari ships some lovin (caldari minimal lovin they are getting alot of love lately
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:43:00 - [77] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Originally by: Derek Sigres Originally by: Kingwood Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 06:50:25 Gotta love it how Caldari players, who complained about the nanocraze the most, are complaining about the nerf now. Leave my Lasers and my Zealot alone, kthx. While many of the complaints were based on silliness you have to understand that Caldari represented the LEAST nanoable race and had the LEAST effective weapons against the nano. I had to use frigate missiles to even hope to harm nano ships with any regularity and even then there were instances where the damage could be safely ignored. Or for example use web. Or a friend with web. Even better if he could use rapier/huginn/hyena. Also caldari ships maybe were hardest to nano but WHEN nanoed they were one of better constant damage dealers. The web theory is a decent one but it generally didn't pan out for the the caldari vessel thanks to the often dramatic differences in speed. Personally, I favored the neut approach, or using my Cerberus (or a Caracal similarly fitted if I was shy on cash) fitted wth precision lights. It's unfortuante that the missile mechanic is fundamentally different as it causes a host of balance issues. Missiles could be evaded by simply outrunning them, damage is modified by absoltue speed and size etc. If they operated on similar princples to guns (i.e. transversal versus absolute velocity) a lot of balance problems would go away. But apparently it would somehow be incredibly difficult to force the missile graphic to demonstate this change.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:53:00 - [78] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Lasers have been good for a while, it's just taken people this long to realize it. But there were three major boosts: Whether or not people have noticed them to be good is beside the point, it's the fact that people have been whining about how they've been underpowered for almost 2 years now, even after at least one direct boost (tracking) and now all of a sudden they're overpowered. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Who cares about DPS/cap-use, every PvP ship is fitting a cap injector. It might have been relevant back before people realized that active tanking sucks and switched to capless buffer tanks, but now it's completely irrelevant. Even the Abaddon (no cap use bonus) can easily be cap-stable, and that's what counts. The current state of cap warfare just adds emphasis to DPS/cap-use. If you don't have cap. you can't fire. Higher cap use on lasers means you have fewer shots per booster charge and if your opponent(s) is(/are) hitting you with vampires and/or neutralizers you have a much better chance of getting shots in with a low/no cap. weapon than you do with a high-cap weapon. Originally by: Merin Ryskin Now, I'm not convinced that lasers are too powerful, as the main problem with blasters is metagame shifts killing solo PvP (where blasters are supposed to dominate). But it's absolutely stupid to say that lasers are weak and useless. Except I think virtually every person who isn't defending lasers or laughing at the trolls is saying that lasers are overpowered. I won't comment on blasters since my idea of what a weapon system is "supposed to" do is based on the game itself and not the players. _________________ Number of attempts to make this post: 2 Reason for this message: I don't like logging in everytime I post a reply or get a quote. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.12 14:58:00 - [79] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 14:59:18 Originally by: Shereza The current state of cap warfare just adds emphasis to DPS/cap-use. If you don't have cap. you can't fire. Higher cap use on lasers means you have fewer shots per booster charge and if your opponent(s) is(/are) hitting you with vampires and/or neutralizers you have a much better chance of getting shots in with a low/no cap. weapon than you do with a high-cap weapon. Actually, in gangs cap warfare is not that useful (takes too long to disable ships really), and targets do go down much faster then running out of 800 charges is a worry generally. You're more likely to try knocking out hostile RR / logistics / tackle / whatever with neuts rather then trying to reduce DPS - neuts are bad for protecting from DPS. Neuting is very powerful for solo though, but solo BS is extremely meh post patch so... Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:27:00 - [80] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 15:35:12 Originally by: Derek Sigres nano Seriously, Crow must've been the second ship (right after vaga) that everyone thought about when they hear the word "nano". Besides they have the easiest counter. I think falcon is a pretty cool ship eh nullifies multiple ships dps at 100km and doesnt afraid of anything. Originally by: Liang Nuren Amarr -Liang But you train every race, so you have nothing to complain about, amirite? --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.12 15:39:00 - [81] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Ignore the little tracking number on the weapon info. What matters is tracking at each weapon's optimal range. Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting Yes, if you always fight in a laser ships optimal range you're going to lose. Of course you are, its foolish to think that you should win! If there is a problem that ships can't get to their optimal range then there might be an issue. But considering jump in on a gate is 15km and warp disruptor range 24/28 i find this unlikely.
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.12 16:12:00 - [82] Medium Pulse Laser spec will be done in a couple of days. Medium Projectile 5 is already done, just need to train medium AC spec to 4. Proud ex-blaster pilot. Rest in piece(s), Large Blaster Spec 4!
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.12 16:13:00 - [83] Originally by: MenanceWhite Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 15:35:12 Originally by: Derek Sigres nano Seriously, Crow must've been the second ship (right after vaga) that everyone thought about when they hear the word "nano". Besides they have the easiest counter. I think falcon is a pretty cool ship eh nullifies multiple ships dps at 100km and doesnt afraid of anything. Yes, the crow was nanoable - you'll note I never said caldari had a complete lack I stated they were the LEAST nanoable. The Crow was perhaps the best inty for dealing damage to non nano ships at speed but it was often the worst ship for fighting other interceptors thanks to the simple fact that other intys could outrun the missiles AND damage. Yes, I know, use a web and all that jazz - the same holds true for other ships like the Taranais or Crusader. Both hold more firepower than the Crow and often win that particular slugging match. Of course, nothing stopped players from trying to nano caldari ships. But the scant number of low slots and high mass meant choosing between speed and firepower was usually a silly choice. Some ships, like the CN Osprey, worked as a nano ship to an extent but ultimately fail in the face of the competition (in the case of the CN Osprey you have the Sacriledge, which does everything the osprey does only it's harder to kill in general). While missiles worked great from the perspective nano ship firing them (no tracking to worry about) they ultimately failed when it came to actually delivering damage TO a nano ship. Precision heavy missiles might hit for double digit damage aginst slower nano ships. Standard heavies usually hit for single digit damage. HAM's rarely even catch the target unless it's webbed. An entire class of weapons (the medium missile) was, in short, useless when it came to engaging nano ships. Gunships have the ability to manage transversal and force direct approaches in addition to range management and low and mid slot modules to aid them in shooting nano ships. It wasn't until I used a gunship that I realized just how silly the problem was for caldari to have. The nano age may indeed have been brought down by Caldari pilots, but it's simply because there was no truly effective response in the arsenel. We had a single missile type that worked well, a handful of niche ships and the Falcon to contend against the nano swarm. Something needed to be done. I would have prefereed a missile boost of some variety and keeping the status quo otherwise personally. All I wanted was the ability toactually have a viable fitting that didn't have to make extreme compromises (i.e. nerfing my firepower so badly that a standard cruiser had a chance to slug it out and win) to be even remotely succesful.
MenanceWhite Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2008.11.12 16:22:00 - [84] Edited by: MenanceWhite on 12/11/2008 16:22:03 Originally by: Derek Sigres very much text Perhaps there would'nt be so many nanos if there were'nt so many stabbed ravens so people had to scream OMG NURF WCS. Perhaps there would'nt be so many nanos if missles werent lock - F key - forget and there were'nt any proper counters vs missiles other than speed. --- Originally by: Torfi There's alot. That can be done. With.. corpses Originally by: Oveur
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:21:00 - [85] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 13/11/2008 08:21:52 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 12/11/2008 15:52:07 Edited by: Goumindong on 12/11/2008 15:51:06 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Ignore the little tracking number on the weapon info. What matters is tracking at each weapon's optimal range. Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting Yes, if you always fight in a laser ships optimal range you're going to lose. Of course you are, its foolish to think that you should win! If there is a problem that ships can't get to their optimal range then there might be an issue. But considering jump in on a gate is 15km and warp disruptor range 24/28 i find this unlikely. Originally by: Letifer Deus By the way, I fly amarr, I think they are fine how they are. As mentioned above, it's simply that the other races aren't able to do what they are supposed to do. No, its not. Its that other people don't know what other races are supposed to do. Amarr are supposed to do DPS at medium range. Its all that laser ships do. Now that Amarr is actually doing DPS at medium ranges after the changes[and locus rigs have been fixed, which is a pretty hefty nerf] some people are realizing that they want to do what someone else is doing rather than do what they are doing. Fleet Superiority? Caldari wins, hands down. The Scorpion, Falcon, Rokh, Eagle, Caracal, and Cerberus are the best fleet ships in the game. Some by larger margins than others. Their snipers have the best range and/or DPS/EHP ratios. Their support has the best ability to kill various targets[Precision Light Missiles HO!] and their ECM is the strongest. Small gang DPS where an active tank is actually valuable? Gallente takes the cake. Nothing picks off similar or larger sized ships like Gallente does with blasters. Their fleet support is decent with drones now and their snipers tied for last place with minmatar's Maelstrom. Killing ships smaller than you without specialization? Minmatar is still really damned good at that. The Pest and Phoon might not be as straight up strong as a Mega, but they will both be able to deal with cruisers better. Their utility in tackling is unmatched but their long range sniping is lacking[Maelstrom should be better than the Gallente option due to cross training efficiency gains between rails, Gallente and Caldari] Amarr Laser ships? DPS, its what they do. Its flashy, and when they aren't shot, they are an integral part of a gang. But its all they do, and its not overpowered. Their support follows the Gallente standard model but offers nothing special in gangs over any other ship. This. /thread And everyone shut up already, the race balance is fine wich it hasn't been for a long long time. The whiners are just whining when they can't shoe horn their race into another races role. ----------------------------------------- [Video] The Cruise
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:31:00 - [86] Originally by: Goumindong Good freaking lord stop saying this, it is not true. What matters is tracking at the range that you are fighting Err... your point? If the range you're fighting at is not your optimal (or at least close to it), you're doing something wrong. My only point here is that the rad/s tracking number only means something once you include range, and the claims I was replying to did NOT. Quote: Small gang DPS where an active tank is actually valuable? Gallente takes the cake. Nothing picks off similar or larger sized ships like Gallente does with blasters. Their fleet support is decent with drones now and their snipers tied for last place with minmatar's Maelstrom. Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable. And outside of 1v1s, the complete lack of range on blasters is a fatal weakness. Once you factor in time spent MWDing into range (especially post-nerf), the slight damage advantage over other weapons just disappears. The drone boats are excellent, however. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 - [87] Originally by: Goumindong more paper tiger crap And this is why the game now sucks, cos if you wanna do a certain type of combat you need to train a entirely different race. Amaar are way overpowered. The game is now ****e, call me when the morons are no longer calling the shots
Elhina Novae Sky's Edge	Posted - 2008.11.13 08:45:00 - [88] I can't say Amarr is overpowered. In all honesty (This isn't trolling), the other races weapon systems are underpowered, and even more now after the patch. Rails/Projectiles/Missiles needs tweaking, no more nerfing here ------------ Originally by: Boz Well Originally by: SurrenderMonkey ... There's an Amarr problem? Nothing that can't be solved by more Minmatar nerfs.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.13 15:53:00 - [89] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/11/2008 15:55:26 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Err... your point? If the range you're fighting at is not your optimal (or at least close to it), you're doing something wrong. And since a blaster ship against a laser ship means they're both at the same range... oh wait. You state that by definition one of you is "doing something wrong", but since that is the case there can be nothing wrong with Amarr, the Gallente pilot is simply "doing something wrong". If you want to define a problem with Amarr, fine, but you actually need to define the problem. Quote: Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable. This is simply not true. The break point on a tech 2, std exile, overloaded tank on a ship without a tank bonus and low hit points is some 2200 dps. Meaning untill the enemy is doing 2200 DPS to you, the active tank is better.[this is a standard eanm,eanm, dc dual rep vs dual plates, you will not break your modules during the duration, break without overloading is some 1400 dps] This means that aside from RR, the active tank is better between 1 and 4 BS, since as BS die and tracking and drones are lost, DPS decreases and then pushes your tank value back under the break point. The break point on a Hyperion is between 3 and 5000 incoming DPS. This is no joke, active tanks are actually really good for small gang fights. If you don't do small gang fights then you will have a problem. If you don't do tech 2 long range sniping the Rokh will also seem like a waste of space while its actually one of the better ships in the game. If you don't do anti-support work the eagle seems terrible when it is, instead, the premier anti-support ship in the game. If you do a lot of POS shotting the Abaddon will seem terrible, if you're going to drop 10 short range gank BS on something its really damned handy. Quote: Active (personal, not remote) tanks are never valuable. And outside of 1v1s, the complete lack of range on blasters is a fatal weakness. Once you factor in time spent MWDing into range (especially post-nerf), the slight damage advantage over other weapons just disappears. The drone boats are excellent, however. That is the thing, its not a slight damage advantage the tracking advantages make it a pretty damned huge damage advantage. If you stick at 3-5km and try and put some transversal on a laser ship even without an AB, he is going to be missing you and you will be railing him. The added meds of the Hyperion only make this easier. Downsizing to ions and electrons grabs big tracking boosts[ditto for AC's] where lasers gain no such advantages and lose the most DPS in the transition. At 2.5km with 100 m/s transversal Ion blasters are doing nearly 85% more DPS against a BS than Mega Pulse Lasers. And that is before any tracking bonus. [50% hit vs 80% hit, hit quality formula ho!] Tech 2 long range ammo provides plenty of range and tracking to compensate. Its not perfect, but 11+16 is 27km of effective range in a neutron blaster.
Onewingedangel Minmatar Armada.	Posted - 2008.11.13 16:59:00 - [90] Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? OMG Something was nerfed and now something else needs to be nerfed to compensate. STFU. People like you wreck games. Nerfing goes on until pvp isn't even playable and 1v1s become a memory. Have you ever played another game? Nerfing eventually destroys everything it touches.
Ni'Kuth	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:00:00 - [91] Quote: That is the thing, its not a slight damage advantage the tracking advantages make it a pretty damned huge damage advantage. If you stick at 3-5km and try and put some transversal on a laser ship even without an AB, he is going to be missing you and you will be railing him. The added meds of the Hyperion only make this easier. Downsizing to ions and electrons grabs big tracking boosts[ditto for AC's] where lasers gain no such advantages and lose the most DPS in the transition. At 2.5km with 100 m/s transversal Ion blasters are doing nearly 85% more DPS against a BS than Mega Pulse Lasers. And that is before any tracking bonus. [50% hit vs 80% hit, hit quality formula ho!] Tech 2 long range ammo provides plenty of range and tracking to compensate. Its not perfect, but 11+16 is 27km of effective range in a neutron blaster. While thats very well and awesome, how does that apply to situations where BSes are commonly in - large fleets, RR gangs, "small" gangs? I believe everyone can agree blaster ships have no place in large fleets. And in RR gangs I assume there's going to be enough webs around that if shorter ranged ships get close to the gang, like a blaster ship or any smaller ship, that any problems with tracking is going to nullified rather quickly. So that leaves "small" (definition of one seems to vary from person to person) mixed gangs or pure (since we are talking about bs here) bs gangs. Are there are any reasonable and common situations where a blastership would be preferable to a laserboat? You are still going to have a number of webs, and on considerably more mobile and agile platforms if you have tackler support.
Lilly Miller	Posted - 2008.11.13 17:20:00 - [92] Edited by: Lilly Miller on 13/11/2008 17:20:42 A sense of history is also need here. The Amarr took a steel nerf bat to the nads years ago. The end to Gankagedon. Spending several years sucking mud at the bottom of the heap, Amarr pilots learned gunnery skills alone would not be enough. So they trained the ancillary skills needed to be effective. Amarr don't need nerfed. But we would like to extend a welcome to all those that now find themselves in our world.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.13 18:04:00 - [93] Edited by: Goumindong on 13/11/2008 18:04:55 Originally by: Ni'Kuth While thats very well and awesome, how does that apply to situations where BSes are commonly in - large fleets, RR gangs, "small" gangs? I used a low transversal for my figures, the lower transversal goes the better it gets for the laser ship. Trasnversals are likely to be quite high initially as the ship closes and turns off its mwd to coast, they spike during the middle part of the fight when any over-correction occurs then stabalize out. A blaster pilot in a same size or smaller ship should be flying to increase transversal and they will have a large advantage in mass and agility to do so. Remember, webs are only 60% now. In an RR gang it depends on what/where you're fighting. If you're always on gates RR vs RR then the blasters will win out due to DPS. Everyone crashes to a central point and the fight begins. If one side is not on a gate then the longer range ships might have an advantage. Dominix's are awesome and will continue to be awesome for RR gangs. Their weakness being their offensive vulnerability to smartbombs while the typical gang has a defensive vulnerability to smartbombs.[Kill the drones = kill the DPS, drop a smartbombing BS in the middle of an amarr RR gang and you'll wipe all their rep drones. This doesn't work if the Amarr gang is on a gate... but if you're on a gate and crashing it then the advantage shifts back to blasters and other short range ships anyway.] In large fleets rail ships do fine, and training the Rokh is not that difficult and the best fleet ship in the game. Blasters and Gallente ships should not be kings of everything, and they are not ill suited for the various aspects of the game. For small gang stuff, they are just fine if not superlative, you just have to know what you're doing. Originally by: Lilly Miller Spending several years sucking mud at the bottom of the heap, Amarr pilots learned gunnery skills alone would not be enough. So they trained the ancillary skills needed to be effective. Bull. We learned that Gunnery Skills are everything and that we needed to exact every last inkling of range and damage that we could in order to be useful and strong.
Onewingedangel Minmatar Armada.	Posted - 2008.11.13 18:20:00 - [94] If I have learned anything from my crossover from minmatar to amarr is that doing effective damage in an amarr ship requires A+ gunnery skills. T2 lasers are a must.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:29:00 - [95] If we're gonna talk about nerfing amarr ships let's talk about nerfing auto-cannon and blaster-based ships themselves. Yes, yes, I know, many people think they've been nerfed but they haven't, not really. Just their propulsion got nerfed really. Once they're in range they're still a force to be reckoned with and that just won't do. I'd like to suggest a "give and take" method of posting from now on. For everything you want to take away from the amarr you must give a nerf to another race. Want to take away some of an amarr ship's mid-range combat capability? Give blaster boats a 10%/level cap reduction "bonus" to replace their 5%/level damage bonus. On the nerf block we should also have rookie ships, electronic assault ships, covert ops ships (not stealth bombers), motherships, dreadnoughts, titans, freighters, snipers, and in generally every other ship in the game that was not seriously adversely affected by Quantum Rise and has now, by the definition that it did not get screwed, become over-powered to the point of requiring ner***e. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2008.11.13 22:38:00 - [96] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again. See what you've done. Look what you did. Now shush. /thread
Gunner Chick	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:14:00 - [97] YOU train up amarr properly and YOU see what lasers do to your cap. See how fleet bs's with tachys operate. See how pulse lasers basically require us to fit specialized tanks on larger ships. See how, for so long, we missed out on short range warfare and finally mid range warfare starts becoming a reality and the babies start whining. I think its safe to say you are upset and just whining. I've been flying amarr going on 5 years and i have had to deal with bad for a long while now. Its only been in the last 12 months that we have seen progress. I'm not gonna sit back without calling the babies out. adapt or die
Gunner Chick	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:22:00 - [98] Edited by: Gunner Chick on 13/11/2008 23:25:34 Edited by: Gunner Chick on 13/11/2008 23:23:23 oh and i thought id add an extra tid bit. everybody stay the heck away from amarr. last thing we need is fotm/foty people whoring my race only to get it nerfed. edit: i say this because the "perception" to CCP is everyone is flying amarr so therefore we need to punish them to get the other ships flown.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.13 23:54:00 - [99] Originally by: Gunner Chick Edited by: Gunner Chick on 13/11/2008 23:25:58 oh and i thought id add an extra tid bit. everybody stay the heck away from amarr. last thing we need is fotm/foty people whoring amarr race only to get it nerfed. edit: i say this because the "perception" to CCP is everyone is flying amarr so therefore we need to punish them to get the other ships flown. Once the morons self-nerf the amarr ships by trying to fly them they'll think that the ships suck and start flying other stuff. Just give it time. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Pac SubCom A.W.M	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:01:00 - [100] Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/11/2008 00:01:31 If Amarr are so great and dangerous and ubiquitous and long ranged, why don't you all fit EM hardeners? My guess is because of all the other things that are "sub par" now... clowns. --------------- ∞ TQFE
Kingwood Amarr Emos and Cowboys	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:20:00 - [101] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/11/2008 00:01:31 If Amarr are so great and dangerous and ubiquitous and long ranged, why don't you all fit EM hardeners? My guess is because of all the other things that are "sub par" now... clowns. Win.
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:24:00 - [102] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/11/2008 00:01:31 If Amarr are so great and dangerous and ubiquitous and long ranged, why don't you all fit EM hardeners? My guess is because of all the other things that are "sub par" now... clowns. On the other hand, what's the last time you saw a tri-hardened setup? ;) Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 00:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Pac SubCom Edited by: Pac SubCom on 14/11/2008 00:01:31 If Amarr are so great and dangerous and ubiquitous and long ranged, why don't you all fit EM hardeners? My guess is because of all the other things that are "sub par" now... clowns. If everyone fits EM hardeners then CCP will think that there's something wrong and that EM hardeners need to be nerfed. As a result the smart people aren't doing that to try and eke out their useful lifespan. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.14 01:54:00 - [104] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/11/2008 01:58:17 For those who think Amarr or Lasers are overpowered, i think your in a dream world. Have any players in an Armageddon or Abaddon / any other laser fitted ships ever tried to go up against a pretty well fitted Tempest pilot and see how slowly the Tempest's armor are going down?. Took 4 mins for a Blaster Mega to take my last Tempest down, so yeh, will take way longer for a laser bs boat to take my ship down. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 02:00:00 - [105] Originally by: NightmareX For those who think Amarr or Lasers are overpowered, i think your in a dream world. Have a geddon pilot ever tried to go up against a pretty well fitted Tempest pilot and see how slowly the Tempest's armor are going down?. Took 4 mins for a Blaster Mega to take my last Tempest down, so yeh, keep on dreaming. So? You can preety much do the same in a Rifter, which suggests that you will see a lot of solo megas post patch. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2008.11.14 02:33:00 - [106] You're not helping, Nightmare X. /me is seriously reconsidering his position now that Nightmare has joined his side.
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:11:00 - [107] Hey, i'm just telling you all that calling Lasers for the best now is just extremely ****ed. Because that's bull** beyond anything. Well ofc for FOTM chasers and EFT warriors, Lasers will ofc be the best, because their DPS in EFT is the best. Do you really know how overpowered a Tempest for example would be if the Tempest would do the same DPS as a Mega or a Geddon when the Tempest can Dual Heavy Neut on top of that + no cap usage from the guns?. There is a logic behind it why Autocannons is not doing as much DPS as Blasters and Lasers. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Cpt Branko Surge.	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:19:00 - [108] Originally by: NightmareX There is a logic behind it why Autocannons is not doing as much DPS as Blasters and Lasers. There is, naturally. We could argue on the specific numbers, but it's besides the point. The suck part of the Tempest are its 6 lows. 5 mids are nice for BS solos and all that, but this is both largely a useless role particularly post QR (I mean, yeah, doing better in BS on BS fights is nice in theory, but in post QR practice finding turret BS to fight solo is going to be a exercise in futility) and for the Typhoon's 4/7 layout (with 4 utility highs which you could fit with a varied number of ACs if you wanted a bit more DPS) is much nicer - you can fit MWD,ECCM, cap booster (got to power the RRs somehow after all), one point of tackle or a TP - and with 7 lows it can fit a nice buffer while doing non-fail DPS. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:32:00 - [109] My ECM makes up for the 7th low lot on the Mega or the 8th low lot on the Geddon, because if i get a jam cycle on you or some more, it will take you like 30 secs to lock and shoot me again every time i get a jam cycle, and within that time i could have repped my armor up a good bit with the setup i use. And what's worser for a Mega or a Geddon to get neuted to hell while being jammed?. But yeah, with my setup, it all depends on my ECM. If i don't get any jam cycles on you, then there is a big chance that i will lose. But, if i get 2-3 jam cycles on you, there is a big chance that i will kill you. And just so you know, the setup i use on my Tempest is both very effective in small gangs and in big gangs. I just need to change the ECM out for a Tracking Disruptor II and change the neuts out to 2x Large Remote Armor Reps. Then we have the perfect ship in big gangs. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:42:00 - [110] Originally by: Cpt Branko Originally by: NightmareX There is a logic behind it why Autocannons is not doing as much DPS as Blasters and Lasers. There is, naturally. We could argue on the specific numbers, but it's besides the point. The suck part of the Tempest are its 6 lows. 5 mids are nice for BS solos and all that, but this is both largely a useless role particularly post QR (I mean, yeah, doing better in BS on BS fights is nice in theory, but in post QR practice finding turret BS to fight solo is going to be a exercise in futility) and for the Typhoon's 4/7 layout (with 4 utility highs which you could fit with a varied number of ACs if you wanted a bit more DPS) is much nicer - you can fit MWD,ECCM, cap booster (got to power the RRs somehow after all), one point of tackle or a TP - and with 7 lows it can fit a nice buffer while doing non-fail DPS. I agree with that for the most part and I know this is going to sound strange but I kinda like the tempest most of the minnie BS because unlike the typhoon it can hit up to 30km with barrage without "sacrificing" a lot of dps by using short range ammo(barrage and EMP L do the same damage). That said, I've no idea what kind of range/dps the phoon has with jav torps. Please feel quite free to correct me on this. And the main point of this post(and at this stage it is pure theorycraft) is to say that I the the typhoon is the one most capable BS after the domi for dealing with smallish cruiser/HAC/Frig gangs, due to it's 5 mids and utility highs. 4x425mm or 650mm AC II(RF Fusion or EMP) 2x Neuts MWD, 24km point, web, 9km point, ECCM/2nd web, TP, whatever 2-3x 1600mm plates, 1-2x EANM II, DC II, gyro II 3x trimarks 5x hammerhead II 5x Hobgoblin II(gallente drones to mix damage) Might be boned by AB-ing frigs/cruisers though I guess I will fully agree that it'll be outshined in gang combat by any amarr BS, torp ravens and domi's using sentries(I want instant damage in my gangs, waiting around for heavy drones to get to their target is fail). If I anticipate fighting on a gate and very short range then I love megas as well obviously and to a lesser extent hyperions.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:43:00 - [111] Originally by: NightmareX Well ofc for FOTM chasers and EFT warriors, Lasers will ofc be the best, because their DPS in EFT is the best. Actually, they aren't. Example, T2 mega pulse lasers on an abaddon at max skills does 482 raw DPS with standard multifrequency crystals. A hyperion with 8 T2 electron blasters does 484 raw DPS with standard antimatter ammo. The worst blaster, in terms of DPS, on a damage bonus gallente battleship gets more DPS than the best lasers, DPS-wise, on a damage bonus amarr battleship. Neutrons, incidentally, do 550. The only way the abaddon will do more is if you stuff an extra heat sink in the extra low slot the abaddon has over the hyperion. At that point the abaddon pulls 708 while the hyperion pulls 674. A second MagStab II on the hyperion, however, takes it up to 805 raw DPS so... Now, for long-range guns you're right, quite right. In point of fact the abaddon would pull 455 DPS with T2 tachyons while the hyperion only pulls 351 DPS with T2 425mm railguns. Of course even at maximum skills the abaddon can only fit 7 T2 tachyons without a grid mod or implant and at 7 guns it only has about 62.5 grid to spare. Any moron who bases their opinion on a ship or weapon system's capacity to be over-powered based on one arbitrary number such as DPS when so many other numbers to consider (such as the abaddon's extra 100 ranged DPS coming at the cost of needing grid mods and using 2x the cap) will fit the ships in such a pathetic fashion as to self-nerf them. So as I said, let'em think that Amarr ships are over-powered, turn them into FotM ships, and then fit them so badly that they nerf them simply by being stupid pilots. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:45:00 - [112] Originally by: NightmareX And just so you know, the setup i use on my Tempest is both very effective in small gangs and in big gangs. I have doubt you're very good with your tempest, but surely you cannot argue that a geddon that costs 30 mil less and does more dps at far more effective ranges and has more EHP is better for medium/large gangs?(15+ ships)
NightmareX D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:51:00 - [113] Edited by: NightmareX on 14/11/2008 03:54:49 Originally by: Jodie Amille Originally by: NightmareX And just so you know, the setup i use on my Tempest is both very effective in small gangs and in big gangs. I have doubt you're very good with your tempest, but surely you cannot argue that a geddon that costs 30 mil less and does more dps at far more effective ranges and has more EHP is better for medium/large gangs?(15+ ships) When you take the 2x Remote reps into the picture, i think 15+ Tempest's will come out better, in close range fights tbh. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
Weryl	Posted - 2008.11.14 03:53:00 - [114] As an Amarr ship junky ... how many times in the last 2 years were we told .. Lasers and Amarr ships are fine from the devs? .. Too many to count .. finally someone says .. There might be an issue with Amarr ships and we get a small boost for tracking. Then a resist change that was global .. now we are overpowered ... funny .. when I started playing Amarr there were about 50+ other ships for every Amarr one I saw ..But there were no problems with the race. I can't tell you if Amarr is overpowered since they are all I fly... I can tell you that I'm having FUN playing Amarr now after training half a bazillion support skills to make my ships viable. Seriously ... Adapt or die Oh and you can send you stuff to me if you plan on quitting .. just stick in a contract and I'll come pick it up
Tykkis	Posted - 2008.11.14 04:40:00 - [115] I can't see what the problem is. pulse lasers have: + excellent range + can balance between range and cap usage with ammo + no ammo usage(except T2 and faction use some) - fixed damage types EM+Therm - worst tracking - huge cap usage - largest fitting requirements. on most ships you can't fit all mwd+repper+booster if you use the good lasers. usually you have to choose 2 of those 3 0 average dps. Eventho EFT says pulse got nice dps, on average ships have more EM resistances than any other on ship side, theres not that many laser ships to choose from anyway. Zealot, Harbinger or Crusader and the battleships. rest are missile and drone ships. I've seen ppl complain about the range, but thats all lasers are good at...
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 07:09:00 - [116] Originally by: Tykkis I've seen ppl complain about the range, but thats all lasers are good at... I'd prefer to say that lasers are better at hitting moving targets with long-range guns because, honestly, in terms of absolute range hybrids and projectiles are superior and, presuming I read the patch notes correctly, absolute range is a little more important now than pre-QR because wrecking hits, or any other, won't occur past optimal + 2x falloff anymore. Beams are tied with or slightly behind railguns for optimal but are dead last for maximum optimal/falloff (absolute) range, but whatever is in their range they'll have a significantly easier time hitting. Tachyons have 45% more tracking speed than 425mm railguns and 54.6_% more tracking than 1400mm artillery. As for EM damage, I lost a sacrilege a few months ago and it took almost 10 minutes before the vulture and broadsword attacking me realized that EM was my weakest resistance. Sometimes it pays to shoot what "everyone" tanks. _________ Number of logins required to make this post: 2 ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Admiral Zhao	Posted - 2008.11.14 07:57:00 - [117] Lazers, missles dont matter to us indys we get smoked
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 08:19:00 - [118] Lazors need nerfing its that simple. The range to dmg ratio for lazors compared to blasters and auto cannons now ships and mwd's have been screwed with royally is way off and needs changing. POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 08:54:00 - [119] Originally by: Murina Lazors need nerfing its that simple. The range to dmg ratio for lazors compared to blasters and auto cannons now ships and mwd's have been screwed with royally is way off and needs changing. Fit EM hardeners, nerf achieved. This nerf has the added benefit of balance by making you weaker against other forms of attack. Joking aside, unless "lazors" are some new weapon system and not a pathetic misspelling of "lasers" they don't need nerfing. At worst they need balancing but as "nerf" generally means "to be made useless" they really don't need that. Feel free to make suggestions instead of just blatant cries of "nerf nerf." Perhaps something like, "reduce their optimal range and increase their tracking." Then there's always "reduce their falloff and lower their cap consumption." Both options lower their range which seems to be your problem and at the same time compensate the weapon system for said lost range. They have lowered range and no nerf, you're happy, others might be happy, balance achieved. It's a beautiful thing. _______ Attempts made to post this message: 2 ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 08:59:00 - [120] Edited by: Murina on 14/11/2008 08:59:50 Originally by: Shereza Originally by: Murina Lazors need nerfing its that simple. The range to dmg ratio for lazors compared to blasters and auto cannons now ships and mwd's have been screwed with royally is way off and needs changing. Feel free to make suggestions instead of just blatant cries of "nerf nerf." You mean like pointing out theirs a issue with the comparative range to dmg ratio of LAZORS compared to other types of turrets and that it need changing?????, that's a great idea maybe i should try it.....hey wait.... POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2008.11.14 09:07:00 - [121] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/11/2008 09:07:31 Originally by: Shereza I'd prefer to say that lasers are better at hitting moving targets with long-range guns because, honestly, in terms of absolute range hybrids and projectiles are superior and, presuming I read the patch notes correctly, absolute range is a little more important now than pre-QR because wrecking hits, or any other, won't occur past optimal + 2x falloff anymore. It's terrible wording. The patch notes apparently were refering to the (hillariously fun) bug that was on SiSi for a while, where your guns would always hit for full damage regardless of range or tracking. Sadly CCP thought there was something slightly unbalanced about a sieged blaster Moros insta-popping interceptors at 250km, and guns were nerfed back to their current TQ state. But for some odd reason, the entry about that bug appeared in the TQ patch notes. ----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.14 11:02:00 - [122] Originally by: Murina You mean like pointing out theirs a issue with the comparative range to dmg ratio of LAZORS compared to other types of turrets and that it need changing?????, that's a great idea maybe i should try it.....hey wait.... You troll here too? Fantastic. When did you lose sight of the whole canon thing about Amarr being reputably 'tanky and shooty'? Lasers are supposed to do grotesque amounts of damage at medium ranges, presuming that the enemy isn't stacked against EM like a stone-covered reflective dish. This is offset by a clear vulnerability to both ECM, TDs, cap warfare and aggressively clingy people buggering you from up close, and an 'incidental' lack in mid slots, especially on the ships that are actually capable of dishing out the kind of laser damage you seem to be talking about. All in all, 'lazors' just so happen to be very, very easily countered through a choice of ships that are most viable for other functions than just hammering on the Amarr, like most Battlecruisers, all the combat-oriented Minmatar T2 ships, most of the assortment of Interceptors, any blastership capable of outmaneuvering or outrunning them (it's horribly difficult to fly circles around a double-plated Geddon, I know...), even other Amarr ships focused on TD effectiveness and cap warfare (which both go together, oftentimes, 'incidentally') and most of all ECM ships which reduce the effectiveness of one, two or three laserships precipitously. Lots and lots and yet again lots of counters, many of which are the primary foci for ships that people commonly fly. Ships spread across all races, that are often very useful elsewhere too. And why? Because lasers are a very conventional weapons system, and thus dealt with in a very conventional and simple manner. Unlike some other things I could name. So take your whine somewhere else, *****.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 11:33:00 - [123] Originally by: Aleus Stygian Originally by: Murina You mean like pointing out theirs a issue with the comparative range to dmg ratio of LAZORS compared to other types of turrets and that it need changing?????, that's a great idea maybe i should try it.....hey wait.... You troll here too? Fantastic. When did you lose sight of the whole canon thing about Amarr being reputably 'tanky and shooty'? Lasers are supposed to do grotesque amounts of damage at medium ranges, presuming that the enemy isn't stacked against EM like a stone-covered reflective dish. This is offset by a clear vulnerability to both ECM, TDs, cap warfare and aggressively clingy people buggering you from up close, and an 'incidental' lack in mid slots, especially on the ships that are actually capable of dishing out the kind of laser damage you seem to be talking about. All in all, 'lazors' just so happen to be very, very easily countered through a choice of ships that are most viable for other functions than just hammering on the Amarr, like most Battlecruisers, all the combat-oriented Minmatar T2 ships, most of the assortment of Interceptors, any blastership capable of outmaneuvering or outrunning them (it's horribly difficult to fly circles around a double-plated Geddon, I know...), even other Amarr ships focused on TD effectiveness and cap warfare (which both go together, oftentimes, 'incidentally') and most of all ECM ships which reduce the effectiveness of one, two or three laserships precipitously. So other than the same problems all turret ships suffer from especially gallente do you have anything worth saying?. POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 18:09:00 - [124] Edited by: Shereza on 14/11/2008 18:12:06 Originally by: Murina You mean like pointing out theirs a issue with the comparative range to dmg ratio of LASERS compared to other types of turrets and that it need changing?????, that's a great idea maybe i should try it.....hey wait.... So instead of crying for nerfing make a suggestion on how to fix it. It's pretty simple, I came up with two in under 30 seconds. EDIT: Originally by: Murina So other than the fact that amaar ships suffer from same problems all turret ships suffer from especially gallente do you have anything worth saying?. You missed the part where he also pointed out that Amarr ships are much less able to counter those problems that "all turret ships suffer from especially gallente." That part about the general lack of mid slots on the DPS ships I believe. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 18:20:00 - [125] Edited by: Murina on 14/11/2008 18:20:44 Originally by: Shereza You missed the part where he also pointed out that Amarr ships are much less able to counter those problems that "all turret ships suffer from especially gallente." That part about the general lack of mid slots on the DPS ships I believe. Like a missing mid slot is a issue when you can stay at range watching your opponent miss while you tear him apart. The speed nerf has made amaar ships considerably more useful than any other race and while i have now pretty much finished training gallente pvp and could easily cross train to another gunnery race blasters need a serious looking at or LAYZORRS need altering/balancing.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.14 18:42:00 - [126] Originally by: Murina Like a missing mid slot is a issue when you can stay at range watching your opponent miss while you tear him apart. Yes. Yes it is, you dip**. That and missing a tracking or damage bonus too. And the inability to passivetank. And the not-quite-so-effective EWAR options, whose bonuses never cross with any toward turrets or missiles, unlike on some ships. Originally by:** Shereza You missed the part where he also pointed out that Amarr ships are much less able to counter those problems that "all turret ships suffer from especially gallente." That part about the general lack of mid slots on the DPS ships I believe. Don't forget the lower sensor strength and the lack of CPU that has me grinding my teeth at some T2 fits.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 18:51:00 - [127] Originally by: Murina Like a missing mid slot is a issue when you can stay at range watching your opponent miss while you tear him apart. Really hard to keep someone at range when your choices are often pick 3 out of the follwing 4 options: AB/MWD, web, scramble, cap injector. Originally by: Murina while i have now pretty much finished training gallente pvp and could easily cross train to another gunnery race blasters need a serious looking at or LAYZORRS need altering/balancing. Hey, if an imaginary module needs altering/balancing go for it, doesn't bother me any. Just leave lasers alone. They're fine. By the way, what exactly are "LAYZORRS?" Sex-toys made from clones of the pirate Zor? Something to do with the scientist Zor from Robotech? Originally by: Aleus Stygian Don't forget the lower sensor strength and the lack of CPU that has me grinding my teeth at some T2 fits. I can't really say much about CPU issues since I only have serious CPU issues with one ship and that's due to training problems. Sensor strength I haven't really noticed either, but since that ties right back into mid-slots and goes to add a fifth module to add in the usually-three-but-sometimes-four mid slots on amarr ships..... ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Xori Ruscuv The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 19:20:00 - [128] Edited by: Xori Ruscuv on 14/11/2008 19:20:24 Ugh, ugly stereotypes about "FOTMers". You know, not everyone is training Fotmarr because of their omgwtf DPS. Hell, I'm already a decently SPed Megathron pilot. If all I cared about was DPS, I'd be training Gallente BS 5 and Large Blaster Spec 5. But honestly, I got tired of MWDing my ass around a fight. The reason Amarr appeals to me now is because they have some decent range. I also got tired of flying drone boats. I hate flying the domi. I love gunnery, so I realized that it was about time to train for a race that focuses on gunnery. FWIW, I'm also training for autocannons after I've stabilized my laser skills. I mean, I just love guns... except blasters.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 19:33:00 - [129] Originally by: Shereza Really hard to keep someone at range when your choices are often pick 3 out of the follwing 4 options: AB/MWD, web, scramble, cap injector. Damn your right its just that in the eve i play 1 v 1 BS fights are rarer than rocking horse crap so maybe you can tell me what server you play on...., SISSI BF1, 2, or 3 perhaps?. Originally by: Aleus Stygian Don't forget the lower sensor strength and the lack of CPU that has me grinding my teeth at some T2 fits. It has us all doing that no matter the race tbh. POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:19:00 - [130] Originally by: Murina Damn your right its just that in the eve i play 1 v 1 BS fights are rarer than rocking horse crap so maybe you can tell me what server you play on...., SISSI BF1, 2, or 3 perhaps?. I think that general lack of mid slots, issues with range control, and dealing with all of that on laser-based ships is a bit more than just "1 v 1 BS fights." Out of the 33 or so amarr combat ships 12 have 4+ slots. Of those 10 have eactly 4 slots with only the recon ships having more. Of the remaining 4 slot ships only the harbinger, apocalypse, abaddon, redeemer, and paladin have bonuses to lasers. The redeemer is unlikely to be seen in regular PvP, and almost as unlikely is the paladin which, incidentally, might just be using one of those 4 mid slots for ECCM to compensate for the poor sensor strength. So, 12 4+ mid slot ships, 5 of which are laser ships, 3 of which are likely to be seen in PvP, and 0 of which are suitable for tackling anything and would likely use tackle gear to hold a pre-tackled ship in place. 10 ships have 3 mid slots. Of them 7 are laser-based ships and 3 are missile-based. Of those 7 laser-based ships one is a laser/EW frigate and one is the heavy interdictor which probably shouldn't be firing its guns very often when its primary role is tackling, which takes cap. I freely admit that laser-based ships don't fight in a vacuum but when the PvP-suited laser-based ships that can fit a speed booster, web, and scramble make up less than 25% of the total ship lineup I feel fairly confident in saying that they have some issues with range control and it goes way beyond the battleships that you mentioned.
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.14 20:24:00 - [131] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Shereza Really hard to keep someone at range when your choices are often pick 3 out of the follwing 4 options: AB/MWD, web, scramble, cap injector. Damn your right its just that in the eve i play 1 v 1 BS fights are rarer than rocking horse crap so maybe you can tell me what server you play on...., SISSI BF1, 2, or 3 perhaps?. Oh fleet options? Like MWD, Injector, sensor boosters, tracking computers, eccm(of which you need two if there's even just two falcons on the field)? Not saying lasers aren't strong, but you're being purposefully obtuse(or just clueless) if you think there's no use for mids in gang/fleet. In all honesty, I think if they put back the em resistance into armor that they'd be fine.(and also put the EXP resistance in shields)
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.14 21:34:00 - [132] Originally by: Jodie Amille Oh fleet options? Like MWD, Injector, sensor boosters, tracking computers, eccm(of which you need two if there's even just two falcons on the field)? I have never fitted a eccm on any of my BS ever and i do not know anybody who has. Nor do i fit a injector on a fleet or gang sniper either. Originally by: Jodie Amille Not saying lasers aren't strong, but you're being purposefully obtuse(or just clueless) if you think there's no use for mids in gang/fleet. I never said their was no use for mids you just exaggerated my point into that little absurdity, i said that amaar are way better after these speed changes and need "balancing" with gallente and mini turret ships and that range is a far better thing to have than a extra mid slot unless its a 1 v 1 fight.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:13:00 - [133] Originally by: Murina I have never fitted a eccm on any of my BS ever and i do not know anybody who has. Nor do i fit a injector on a fleet or gang sniper either. EERK! Firstly, when did we start assuming that we're talking Battleships here? Secondly, while fitting an injector isn't necessary on [an Amarr] fleet sniper, not having ECCM or problems with the mids is not common. Originally by: Murina I never said their was no use for mids you just exaggerated my point into that little absurdity, i said that amaar are way better after these speed changes and need "balancing" with gallente and mini turret ships and that range is a far better thing to have than a extra mid slot unless its a 1 v 1 fight. Big surprise. Never mind that there are still plentiful counters out there - just that they aren't in the damn BS class! Surprise, surprise; the Amarr have the shootiest Battleships and you have to use some other damn strategy than plowing right through their lasers to get to them! I heard you complaining about the rest of us having an F1-F8 approach to PvP, and while at the time I wanted to laugh and point to missile ships, now it is time to hand that comment right back to you. So here you go; if you have any sort of PvP skills outside of locking and hitting up your launchers, now is the time to use them, Miss Pants on Head! How about using TDs, or ever better your vaunted ECM to take care of those flashlight slowboats, hm? I think that most people who have been under fire know this works.
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:34:00 - [134] Interesting reading. Originally by: Rana Arnov It was a rich and diverse mixture of battleships and cruisers, each ship equipped with state of the art Amarrian laser technology. Their ships were bulky and slow, but made up for their lack of agility with the devastating power of their laser batteries. I'd say Amarr ships are functioning as intended. Big, slow, deadly. ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Malcanis RuffRyders Eradication Alliance	Posted - 2008.11.14 22:47:00 - [135] As a regular falcon pilot I'll say this: hahah easy jam.
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:27:00 - [136] Edited by: Jodie Amille on 14/11/2008 23:31:54 edit: posting weirdness
Jodie Amille Gunship Diplomacy	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:28:00 - [137] Edited by: Jodie Amille on 14/11/2008 23:29:44 Originally by: Murina I have never fitted a eccm on any of my BS ever and i do not know anybody who has. Nor do i fit a injector on a fleet or gang sniper either. So, I take it you don't fight people that use falcons or scorps then Originally by: Malcanis hahah easy jam.
agent apple The Priory	Posted - 2008.11.14 23:30:00 - [138] And the winners for best Sniper BS, Best remote rep BS, best HAC, Best CS, Best carrier, Best dread by popular killboard vote are..... Saddest thing is second post hit the nail on the head, Amarr are fine its just everything else thats been nerfed and neglected into uselessness
Captain Ziltoid	Posted - 2008.11.15 13:33:00 - [139] Am I the only one that uses lasers -just- because they're ****ing lasers? I mean, dude..."They're lasers" was argument enough for me to train them up on my alt. The fact that they rock my socks is just a much added bonus.... But they're effin' lasers man! LASERS!
SCHLAMPEvomDIENST	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:19:00 - [140] yaya go on and nerf amar. we want all 4 races be the same. just other universe background!! rollback caldari!
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.15 14:51:00 - [141] Edited by: Murina on 15/11/2008 14:51:53 Originally by: Jodie Amille So, I take it you don't fight people that use falcons or scorps then We do but we never fit eccm as its pointless because maneuverability and dictating range are considerably more effective at dealing with ewar than any single module. You sound like a eft warrior to me tbh. POST NERF PVP SKILLS: "shall we engage?" "hmmm how many ships do they have?" "more than us" "lets not bother then" "WOW great job FC!!!!" ".................
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.15 21:04:00 - [142] Originally by: Murina You sound like a eft warrior to me tbh. [Judge's voice] On this side we have the Pot Team. And on this side we have the Kettle Team. Battle mode 0999. Reaaadddyyyyy..... FIGHT! [/Zoid's rip] _______________ Logins required to post this: 3 ____________________ Minmatar in Fantasy or Duct Tape Goes Medieval.
Murina The Scope	Posted - 2008.11.15 21:07:00 - [143] Edited by: Murina on 15/11/2008 21:10:29 Originally by: Shereza Originally by: Murina You sound like a eft warrior to me tbh. [Judge's voice] On this side we have the Pot Team. And on this side we have the Kettle Team. Battle mode 0999. Reaaadddyyyyy..... FIGHT! [/Zoid's rip] _______________ Logins required to post this: 3 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND OUR REFEREE FOR TONIGHTS BOUT HAS 0 KILLS OR LOSSES ON BC....................
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.15 21:49:00 - [144] Originally by: Murina AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND OUR REFEREE FOR TONIGHTS BOUT HAS 0 KILLS OR LOSSES ON BC.................... I should hope so. I haven't undocked this character except to move her nifty apotheosis a few months ago.
Euriti Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.11.15 22:27:00 - [145] OP is the same lost troll/whiner that used to haunt every nanothread. Back for round two in your quest to make Caldari the best?
Suitonia Gallente interimo	Posted - 2008.11.15 23:04:00 - [146] Originally by: Euriti OP is the same lost troll/whiner that used to haunt every nanothread. Back for round two in your quest to make Caldari the best? This. Stab Wounds is a terrible Caldari troll, here are some of his worst posts. Interceptors were overpowered The Tempest is on his list of best ships in game His post-nano nerf proposed Ishtar fit We should be fitting tracking enhancers on Megathrons to deal with Blaster range problems
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.16 01:18:00 - [147] Originally by: Suitonia Originally by: Euriti OP is the same lost troll/whiner that used to haunt every nanothread. Back for round two in your quest to make Caldari the best? This. Stab Wounds is a terrible Caldari troll, here are some of his worst posts. Interceptors were overpowered The Tempest is on his list of best ships in game His post-nano nerf proposed Ishtar fit We should be fitting tracking enhancers on Megathrons to deal with Blaster range problems Please bear in mind that I am in no way, shape, or form condoning his past or current idiocy, and that I moonlight as a Devil's Adocate quite often, but there are some things to consider. #1 Interceptors were over-powered, or at least their engines were, but they were easily countered by using the right modules and ships on them. They did need their speed reduced to keep in line with everything else but along the way, presuming the original post in the linked thread was accurate, they seem to've been slightly neutered, not nerfed. #2 Let him put the tempest on his list of best ships in the game. I personally think it's one of the worst ships in the game because I don't like it's fitting ability or how it looks. In point of fact I rank the moa as one of the best just because of it's looks alone. It's most definitely not one of the best ships in the game when everyone's opinion is averaged out but for me it is. #3 A passive shield tank ishtar actually has the possibility to be remarkably effective given the right setups and circumstances. His setups, however, were not the right ones. Two big things he could've done to fix it, railguns or artillery and sentry drones instead of heavy drones. #4 Tracking enhancers have the same range bonus as range-scripted tracking computers, at least at the T2 level, and the megathron does have more low slots than mids. Given the number of potential "mandatory" mods that might get shoved into the mid slots room for a cap-using range-boosting module might not be there so fitting a tracking enhancer to boost blaster range is a valid choice. Of course since you only get about another 700m range with antimatter, 2100m with iron, and 1700m with null ammo using any range-boosting mod on blasters is almost as pointless as using them on autocannons. So yeah, I agree the guy's an idiot but there's a dangerous core of validity in what he says.
Lysander Kaldenn Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2008.11.16 03:40:00 - [148] Stab Wounds STFU. You were first in line for this nerf, one of the loudest asses on this forum. You got what you asked for, and everything that goes with it.
Pr1ncess Alia Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2008.11.16 04:22:00 - [149] see what happens when you feed the trolls? you get a 5 page thread of fail
Nicola Sardonicus	Posted - 2008.11.16 04:38:00 - [150] Originally by: Shereza I personally think [the Tempest is] one of the worst ships in the game because I don't like it's fitting ability or how it looks. In point of fact I rank the moa as one of the best just because of it's looks alone. Ya know, there's nothing like a Gallente freighter to my eye. I'm gonna take one out for some PvP action tonight . . .
Take Enemy BAD WOLF INC.	Posted - 2008.11.16 04:47:00 - [151] Originally by: Stab Wounds So all the weapon systems are getting nerfed cept lasers with their rediculous range and dps. anyone else agree that after patch amarr will be quite overpowered? I laughed. 2.5 years of Amarr (yes a n00bin) and this.
arbiter reformed Minmatar Systematic Chaos.	Posted - 2008.11.16 06:09:00 - [152] this thread makes me sad . what the ** are people fuking whning about for **s sake, lasers are fine compared to all other wepon systems end off
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.16 06:23:00 - [153] Originally by: arbiter reformed this thread makes me sad . what the ** are people fuking whning about for **s sake, lasers are fine compared to all other wepon systems end off If you've ever had a cut that hurt and you squeezed on it really hard so that it hurt worse than if you left it alone and then stopped squeezing you'd stop feeling the pain for awhile. For many lasers have been just such a cut and the game environment has been squeezing them for years now. CCP simply relieved the pressure with the release of Quantum Rise and people are mistaking a transient lack of pain, or at least semblance of balance, for a serious problem. Or I could just be mistaken and these could really be some true idiots who believe that the old saying should have been, "If it ain't broke do fix it."
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2008.11.16 06:41:00 - [154] Edited by: Derek Sigres on 16/11/2008 06:42:00 Originally by: Captain Ziltoid Am I the only one that uses lasers -just- because they're ****ing lasers? I mean, dude..."They're lasers" was argument enough for me to train them up on my alt. The fact that they rock my socks is just a much added bonus.... But they're effin' lasers man! LASERS! This. Entirely this. I originally trained my FIRST set of gunnery skills (beyond the 900k I have invested in hybrids before I realized missiles were less miserable in the pre Rokh and rail boat boost days) because people on this forum just kept whining on how terrible lasers and amarr were in general. Turns out, I didn't really agree with them, though I could see their point on a handful of ship (The pre boost Apoc for example). Then, a few million missiles being lobbed around later I got utterly sick of shooting missiles at stuff, so I figured I could pretty much start over with a new race and have a great head start since many of my SP are of the "general use" variety. I never liked hybrids so gallente were out. We have projectile weapons now and minmitar ships look like they are assembled from garbage. Amarr? They have lasers and golden phalic symbols sporting said lasers. I mean, comeon. How much more epeen do you want when you have a ship like the Armageddon sporting doom lasers?
Lusian	Posted - 2008.11.16 11:32:00 - [155] The ammarians aare not over powerd. There is always a way. And with all these new moduels that have come out and new drones to choose from. I doubt that any race has the advantage. Select yout ship and moduels rigs and drones. Have in mind what you want to gank and try not to get over confident.
techzer0 IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.11.16 11:35:00 - [156] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic blasters and AC have higher tracking than lasers, go close, amarrian ships are not known for their utility and in large gangs none of this matters, you will have probably support or other ships that are focused fired WTB Small or Medium Pulse Lasers with slower tracking than Autocannons and Blasters. srsly. Have you even flown and/or fought a Zealot or Retribution in a speed tanked ship? (Moot point now I suppose... but yeah.... srsly.) ------------ Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
Shereza	Posted - 2008.11.16 22:37:00 - [157] Originally by: techzer0 Originally by: Cpt Cosmic blasters and AC have higher tracking than lasers, go close, amarrian ships are not known for their utility and in large gangs none of this matters, you will have probably support or other ships that are focused fired WTB Small or Medium Pulse Lasers with slower tracking than Autocannons and Blasters. srsly. Have you even flown and/or fought a Zealot or Retribution in a speed tanked ship? (Moot point now I suppose... but yeah.... srsly.) .... Huh? Maybe my sarcasmotron is broken but... Small blasers: Electron: .365 Ion: .336 Neutron: .3165 Small ACs: 125mm: .395 150mm: .35 200mm: .315 Small pulse: Gatling pulse: .308125 Dual light pulse: .27375 Medium Pulse: .24625 /shrugs. ______________ Attempts required to post this: 3
Lorz0r You're Doing It Wrong	Posted - 2008.11.16 23:18:00 - [158] I would say they are imbalanced, overpowered seems too harsh for it. Sure they're better than the other weapons systems but they aren't anything to whine too loud over.
Van Steiza Eternal Perseverance	Posted - 2008.11.16 23:42:00 - [159] HOLY*HITBALLS people are complaining about fuking l4z0rz now? THERE not imbalanced let alone overpowered there great weapons systems. My char is mainly specced gallante and can fly minimatar hacs,recons n commands too. I have always been inclined to train ammar cos of the fricken Pew pew !!l4z0rs!! but there not overpowered in the slightest wow. ----------------------------------------------- Stop removing my Sig its fine!!!! Nerf Moderaters.
Aleus Stygian	Posted - 2008.11.17 01:12:00 - [160] Originally by: Van Steiza HOLYHITBALLS people are complaining about fuking l4z0rz now? THERE not imbalanced let alone overpowered there great weapons systems. My char is mainly specced gallante and can fly minimatar hacs,recons n commands too. I have always been inclined to train ammar cos of the fricken Pew pew !!l4z0rs!! but there not overpowered in the slightest wow. "Woeep woeep woeep woeep woeep...!" Yeah, that's the sound of my troll detector. Seems there are too many people like this on the 'con' side and they want to push some to the 'pro'. Originally by:* Murina AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND OUR REFEREE FOR TONIGHTS BOUT HAS 0 KILLS OR LOSSES ON BC.................... Ever searching for something to pin on people and making projections and assumptions so you won't have to address the real question, eh, Murina?

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