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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.14 22:55:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: ProphetGuru
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 14/07/2004 20:33:39
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 14/07/2004 20:31:26
Edit- why cap relays effect shield boosting ability, while med slot cap chargers do not effect armor tanking ability, is beyond me. The cpr nerf needs to be undone, and another solution found.
There are no mid-slot PDU's. That said i do agree with you in terms of finding a better solution rather then the -10% shield boost bonus that currently exists.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.07.14 22:55:00 -
[32]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 14/07/2004 20:33:39
Edited by: ProphetGuru on 14/07/2004 20:31:26
Edit- why cap relays effect shield boosting ability, while med slot cap chargers do not effect armor tanking ability, is beyond me. The cpr nerf needs to be undone, and another solution found.
There are no mid-slot PDU's. That said i do agree with you in terms of finding a better solution rather then the -10% shield boost bonus that currently exists.
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Ardra
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Posted - 2004.07.14 22:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Putting ew into the equation when we are discussing tanking and dot is nothing short of retarded.
And the fact hes already said the cap relays need un-nerf tend to suggest u cant realy run EW effecitvley due to cap drain (was a nightmare on my BB)
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Ardra
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Posted - 2004.07.14 22:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Putting ew into the equation when we are discussing tanking and dot is nothing short of retarded.
And the fact hes already said the cap relays need un-nerf tend to suggest u cant realy run EW effecitvley due to cap drain (was a nightmare on my BB)
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:02:00 -
[35]
Dalman, been working mostly with 800's and d425's so I will have to check, but I am fairly sure u will not have the cpu to run that.
With the tempest relatively weak cap, especially with a mwd on, ur gonna need a LOT of cap charges, and... have you seen the rate that autocannons chew thru ammo? Not sure it is viable to be honest. I'll have to do the loadout and ck it out tho.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:02:00 -
[36]
Dalman, been working mostly with 800's and d425's so I will have to check, but I am fairly sure u will not have the cpu to run that.
With the tempest relatively weak cap, especially with a mwd on, ur gonna need a LOT of cap charges, and... have you seen the rate that autocannons chew thru ammo? Not sure it is viable to be honest. I'll have to do the loadout and ck it out tho.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:22:00 -
[37]
I solely believe that tempests should be 8 turret 4 launcher hardpoint maybe 6 turret 4 on the typhoon.
This would bring it back in balance with the tier 2's. Minmatar are gunships they are the all guns blazeing race. there fast to get in close and use low slots for tanking and mid slots for ECCM/ECM.
You can easily have a tempest as a scorp killing machine where it can be immune from jamming. im not quite sure why the tempest is so versitile pushed towards either ok armour tanking or ok shield tanking... maybe extra gun mounts is the balance everyone needs.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:22:00 -
[38]
I solely believe that tempests should be 8 turret 4 launcher hardpoint maybe 6 turret 4 on the typhoon.
This would bring it back in balance with the tier 2's. Minmatar are gunships they are the all guns blazeing race. there fast to get in close and use low slots for tanking and mid slots for ECCM/ECM.
You can easily have a tempest as a scorp killing machine where it can be immune from jamming. im not quite sure why the tempest is so versitile pushed towards either ok armour tanking or ok shield tanking... maybe extra gun mounts is the balance everyone needs.
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:26:00 -
[39]
Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 23:42:15
Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 23:35:53
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Dalman, been working mostly with 800's and d425's so I will have to check, but I am fairly sure u will not have the cpu to run that.
With the tempest relatively weak cap, especially with a mwd on, ur gonna need a LOT of cap charges, and... have you seen the rate that autocannons chew thru ammo? Not sure it is viable to be honest. I'll have to do the loadout and ck it out tho.
With all _best_ named equipment I'm 100% you don't run out of CPU.
It's pretty much the same setup I use on my megathron (which has same base CPU and I use 687/687). The tempest would use up a bit more than my mega on the 2:nd L acco + 2:nd Nosf, but gain slightly more than that from the lesser usage on the 6 turrets.
On the "which gun to choose"...
Well, I don't have any experience of using them, but looking at them (without skills (scout version)):
800: 0.3733x/s 35cpu 2000grid
d650: 0.3552x/s 32cpu 1500grid
d425: 0.3333x/s 29cpu 1250grid
My conclusion is that the d650 gives "most bang for the money" (damage/s versus usage of cpu and grid).
And in the same way I'm of the opninion the electrons is the best choice on a megathron.
And yea, the need of cap charges and ammo for my megathron is a pain in the ass...
And I'm certain the turrets would be hitting good (considering tracking, optimal, falloff) by simply clicking "orbit at 5 km" and let EVE handle the manuevering (against a raven, simply stop the ship and web target to maximise damage output).
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:26:00 -
[40]
Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 23:42:15
Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 23:35:53
Originally by: ProphetGuru
Dalman, been working mostly with 800's and d425's so I will have to check, but I am fairly sure u will not have the cpu to run that.
With the tempest relatively weak cap, especially with a mwd on, ur gonna need a LOT of cap charges, and... have you seen the rate that autocannons chew thru ammo? Not sure it is viable to be honest. I'll have to do the loadout and ck it out tho.
With all _best_ named equipment I'm 100% you don't run out of CPU.
It's pretty much the same setup I use on my megathron (which has same base CPU and I use 687/687). The tempest would use up a bit more than my mega on the 2:nd L acco + 2:nd Nosf, but gain slightly more than that from the lesser usage on the 6 turrets.
On the "which gun to choose"...
Well, I don't have any experience of using them, but looking at them (without skills (scout version)):
800: 0.3733x/s 35cpu 2000grid
d650: 0.3552x/s 32cpu 1500grid
d425: 0.3333x/s 29cpu 1250grid
My conclusion is that the d650 gives "most bang for the money" (damage/s versus usage of cpu and grid).
And in the same way I'm of the opninion the electrons is the best choice on a megathron.
And yea, the need of cap charges and ammo for my megathron is a pain in the ass...
And I'm certain the turrets would be hitting good (considering tracking, optimal, falloff) by simply clicking "orbit at 5 km" and let EVE handle the manuevering (against a raven, simply stop the ship and web target to maximise damage output).
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
I solely believe that tempests should be 8 turret 4 launcher hardpoint maybe 6 turret 4 on the typhoon.
I think that might just work. Their powergrid already limits the use of long-range artillery weapons, but even with the biggest autocannons you will end up with alot of wasted powergrid. And with such good turret bonuses it's a shame seeing the Typhoon forced to be a Hybrid turret-missile boat.
Only problem is the Tempest might very well exceed or atleast be too close to the Megathron in close-range damage output, which I don't think is fair either. Autocannons may chew through 10k ammo in no time at all, but cap is life, and low tracking can be compensated for with navigation.
Right now having such low power grid use on Autocannons seems odd considering not a single ship can NOT fill their entire turret array with the biggest of these.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Valeria
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Posted - 2004.07.14 23:59:00 -
[42]
Originally by: SwitchBl4d3
I solely believe that tempests should be 8 turret 4 launcher hardpoint maybe 6 turret 4 on the typhoon.
I think that might just work. Their powergrid already limits the use of long-range artillery weapons, but even with the biggest autocannons you will end up with alot of wasted powergrid. And with such good turret bonuses it's a shame seeing the Typhoon forced to be a Hybrid turret-missile boat.
Only problem is the Tempest might very well exceed or atleast be too close to the Megathron in close-range damage output, which I don't think is fair either. Autocannons may chew through 10k ammo in no time at all, but cap is life, and low tracking can be compensated for with navigation.
Right now having such low power grid use on Autocannons seems odd considering not a single ship can NOT fill their entire turret array with the biggest of these.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
GFLTorque
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Posted - 2004.07.15 00:01:00 -
[43]
I am not sure how many ppl have tested Large guns more then I on Entropy on a Tempest, but I can say that (DOT + [HPBOT + Sum of Shield Resists + Sum of Armour Resists]) is a better formula for measuring strength of a battleship during combat if you assume the same starting point.
Herein the Tempest is woefully inadequate. (Assuming you keep skills equivelant)
For Example:
Hypothetical Ship:
DPS = 175
HPBOT (Hit Points Boost Over Time in this scenario per second) = 150
Sum of Shield Resists = 185 (ie... em% +therm% +Expl% +Kinetic% and reported as a whole number {50% = 50).
Sum of Armour Resists = 175 (same as above only with armour resists)
You get this for Battleship strength in combat:
175(DPS) + [150hpbot + 185shield + 110armour]) = 620 Combat Factor (higher = more damage & tanking ability)
a Hypothetical ship that looks similar in combat:
175(DPS) + [58hpbot + 150shield + 290armour]) = 673 Combat Factor
These two ships: Are 9% unbalanced boosting+damage comparision.
Despite the fact their DPS is the Same, and the losing ship actually has more HP boosting.
I've been trying to work on a much better formula over the last 3 weeks, but whew.... been too busy. 
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
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GFLTorque
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Posted - 2004.07.15 00:01:00 -
[44]
I am not sure how many ppl have tested Large guns more then I on Entropy on a Tempest, but I can say that (DOT + [HPBOT + Sum of Shield Resists + Sum of Armour Resists]) is a better formula for measuring strength of a battleship during combat if you assume the same starting point.
Herein the Tempest is woefully inadequate. (Assuming you keep skills equivelant)
For Example:
Hypothetical Ship:
DPS = 175
HPBOT (Hit Points Boost Over Time in this scenario per second) = 150
Sum of Shield Resists = 185 (ie... em% +therm% +Expl% +Kinetic% and reported as a whole number {50% = 50).
Sum of Armour Resists = 175 (same as above only with armour resists)
You get this for Battleship strength in combat:
175(DPS) + [150hpbot + 185shield + 110armour]) = 620 Combat Factor (higher = more damage & tanking ability)
a Hypothetical ship that looks similar in combat:
175(DPS) + [58hpbot + 150shield + 290armour]) = 673 Combat Factor
These two ships: Are 9% unbalanced boosting+damage comparision.
Despite the fact their DPS is the Same, and the losing ship actually has more HP boosting.
I've been trying to work on a much better formula over the last 3 weeks, but whew.... been too busy.
4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
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Eyeris
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Posted - 2004.07.15 01:23:00 -
[45]
Generally agree.
After turrets and missle changes patch Tempest have definitly lost its previous destinctive role as "damage dealer".Im really not sure anymore how to use Tempest to the best of its ability.
Adding 1 more med or lowslot would make it "flavour of the month" again (which is fine by me since half of combat pilots in EVE are already trained for it).Although moving 1 lowslot to med or vice-versa would be interesting.
Increasing CPU would help , but it wouldnt solve Tempest's problems.
Perhaps changing L Proj firing speed bonus and replacing it with something elce ? For example missle damage bonus.It doeas have 4 missle slots after all.
Don't suppose you can roll back turret changes ?
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Eyeris
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Posted - 2004.07.15 01:23:00 -
[46]
Generally agree.
After turrets and missle changes patch Tempest have definitly lost its previous destinctive role as "damage dealer".Im really not sure anymore how to use Tempest to the best of its ability.
Adding 1 more med or lowslot would make it "flavour of the month" again (which is fine by me since half of combat pilots in EVE are already trained for it).Although moving 1 lowslot to med or vice-versa would be interesting.
Increasing CPU would help , but it wouldnt solve Tempest's problems.
Perhaps changing L Proj firing speed bonus and replacing it with something elce ? For example missle damage bonus.It doeas have 4 missle slots after all.
Don't suppose you can roll back turret changes ?
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2004.07.15 02:10:00 -
[47]
Not sure why you really complain, I think the Tempest is still quite a nice ship, no real problems killing anything in it.
Which is unbalanced are Apocs and Ravens I think. Just a bit too powerfull, well actually Apocs stats and missles are a bit overpowered, but I don't see there a major Tempest problem.
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XpoHoc
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Posted - 2004.07.15 02:10:00 -
[48]
Not sure why you really complain, I think the Tempest is still quite a nice ship, no real problems killing anything in it.
Which is unbalanced are Apocs and Ravens I think. Just a bit too powerfull, well actually Apocs stats and missles are a bit overpowered, but I don't see there a major Tempest problem.
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Homer Simpson
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Posted - 2004.07.15 03:11:00 -
[49]
I've had my tempest a very long time so should have some idea how to use one by now, but I dont. I wish the goalposts would stop being moved...
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Homer Simpson
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Posted - 2004.07.15 03:11:00 -
[50]
I've had my tempest a very long time so should have some idea how to use one by now, but I dont. I wish the goalposts would stop being moved...
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Rivek
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Posted - 2004.07.15 03:19:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Rivek on 15/07/2004 03:59:55
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
EDIT: Just now I fit a tempest on entropy (cant fly them on tranq)
6x dual 650
2x heavy nosferatu
1x mwd
1x tracking comp (cant fit tech2)
1x fleeting propulsion web
1x 7.5k scrambler
1x heavy cap injector
1x large accomadation
3x active hardners
1x dmg mod
1x photonic cpu
I have electronics 4 and weapon upgrades 3 on that server I believe. With named guns and/or better skills I think you could drop the cpu for something worthwhile, perhaps that 2nd armor rep. |
Rivek
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Posted - 2004.07.15 03:19:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Rivek on 15/07/2004 03:59:55
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
EDIT: Just now I fit a tempest on entropy (cant fly them on tranq)
6x dual 650
2x heavy nosferatu
1x mwd
1x tracking comp (cant fit tech2)
1x fleeting propulsion web
1x 7.5k scrambler
1x heavy cap injector
1x large accomadation
3x active hardners
1x dmg mod
1x photonic cpu
I have electronics 4 and weapon upgrades 3 on that server I believe. With named guns and/or better skills I think you could drop the cpu for something worthwhile, perhaps that 2nd armor rep. |
hellwarrior
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Posted - 2004.07.15 06:36:00 -
[53]
Edited by: hellwarrior on 15/07/2004 06:38:54
What would happen, if.. cap relays were unnerfed, but were given harsher fittings, raven can not fit 6 siege and 2 nos, so it has to use some grid modules, makes other ships stronger. Armor tanking is strong, why not make shield tanking the same?
BTW a tempest with 7 low slots is a funny idea, no >:| I mean I fly one, i'm not centered on it because i fly tempest raven apoc, but I still lub it. I think that would make it too strong, should get more cpu.
Also battleships should get larger cargos! :> 10-20% more... need to be better at mining (or atleast that is my excuse to be able to fit more 800 cap charges)
There is probably a flaw with my idea, but I would like to be reminded what it is..
-hw`
PS i have carbine 1400s for sale to save cpu, and galliums those save cpu too!
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hellwarrior
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Posted - 2004.07.15 06:36:00 -
[54]
Edited by: hellwarrior on 15/07/2004 06:38:54
What would happen, if.. cap relays were unnerfed, but were given harsher fittings, raven can not fit 6 siege and 2 nos, so it has to use some grid modules, makes other ships stronger. Armor tanking is strong, why not make shield tanking the same?
BTW a tempest with 7 low slots is a funny idea, no >:| I mean I fly one, i'm not centered on it because i fly tempest raven apoc, but I still lub it. I think that would make it too strong, should get more cpu.
Also battleships should get larger cargos! :> 10-20% more... need to be better at mining (or atleast that is my excuse to be able to fit more 800 cap charges)
There is probably a flaw with my idea, but I would like to be reminded what it is..
-hw`
PS i have carbine 1400s for sale to save cpu, and galliums those save cpu too!
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Estarriol
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Posted - 2004.07.15 07:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rivek
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
Sure, but hybrids also pour out more damage than similar-class projectiles.
I think the issue is that the apoc is a killer armortank with its high grid and lowslots, raven is a successful shieldtank with its midslots, high cpu, and torpedo spam, and megathron can pour out the damage like nothing else, with its lowslots and hybrid bonuses.
Meanwhile, tempest seems just a tad short in each area to excel at any one of them. Before the patch, it was the fleet gunship of choice, but now its value seems somewhat diminished. As a level 2 battleship, tempest certainly should have some turf to claim as its own, hence the request to examine its current gamebalancing
Estarriol.
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Estarriol
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Posted - 2004.07.15 07:32:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rivek
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
Sure, but hybrids also pour out more damage than similar-class projectiles.
I think the issue is that the apoc is a killer armortank with its high grid and lowslots, raven is a successful shieldtank with its midslots, high cpu, and torpedo spam, and megathron can pour out the damage like nothing else, with its lowslots and hybrid bonuses.
Meanwhile, tempest seems just a tad short in each area to excel at any one of them. Before the patch, it was the fleet gunship of choice, but now its value seems somewhat diminished. As a level 2 battleship, tempest certainly should have some turf to claim as its own, hence the request to examine its current gamebalancing
Estarriol.
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p0ma
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Posted - 2004.07.15 07:45:00 -
[57]
As far as I can tell the Tempest is currently the best NPC'ing battleship. I've been using (4)1400mm, (4) Shock Limos, 3 Cap Recharger II's, 1 Tracking Computer II, 1 Large C-5L(I wanna replace with a Large Shield Booster II asap), 2 Ballistic Controls, 2 Gyrostabilizer II's, 1 Power Diagnostic I(I intend on swapping with a T2 version asap), and 1 Medium Automated Armor Repairer(again I want a T2 one).
In theory this NPC'ing loadout would work decent as firepower boat in a fleet situation for PvP. Smaller confrontations might be a problem since allegedly Close Range Large Projectiles are still screwed up.
I'm speculating the Tempest has indeed dipped in rank for PvP but I'll be putting mine to the test in a few days. If I switch to Malkuth Sieges, and a Small Armor Rep, and perhaps replaced a Ballistic Control with a Sensor Booster II or another Power Diagnostic, I could have enough CPU left to ditch the Large Shield Booster and replace it with a Large Clarity.
Ah, nvm, I am not much of a tanking fan myself but yeah I agree the Tempest is hard to tank currently but it's NOT a useless ship as it has a firepower advantage. I don't see Modulated Tacheons landing for 1600+ dmg with wrecking hits heheheheh....
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"Cry Exploit and let slip the Dogs of War" |
p0ma
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Posted - 2004.07.15 07:45:00 -
[58]
As far as I can tell the Tempest is currently the best NPC'ing battleship. I've been using (4)1400mm, (4) Shock Limos, 3 Cap Recharger II's, 1 Tracking Computer II, 1 Large C-5L(I wanna replace with a Large Shield Booster II asap), 2 Ballistic Controls, 2 Gyrostabilizer II's, 1 Power Diagnostic I(I intend on swapping with a T2 version asap), and 1 Medium Automated Armor Repairer(again I want a T2 one).
In theory this NPC'ing loadout would work decent as firepower boat in a fleet situation for PvP. Smaller confrontations might be a problem since allegedly Close Range Large Projectiles are still screwed up.
I'm speculating the Tempest has indeed dipped in rank for PvP but I'll be putting mine to the test in a few days. If I switch to Malkuth Sieges, and a Small Armor Rep, and perhaps replaced a Ballistic Control with a Sensor Booster II or another Power Diagnostic, I could have enough CPU left to ditch the Large Shield Booster and replace it with a Large Clarity.
Ah, nvm, I am not much of a tanking fan myself but yeah I agree the Tempest is hard to tank currently but it's NOT a useless ship as it has a firepower advantage. I don't see Modulated Tacheons landing for 1600+ dmg with wrecking hits heheheheh....
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"Cry Exploit and let slip the Dogs of War" |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.07.15 09:19:00 -
[59]
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
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http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.07.15 09:19:00 -
[60]
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
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