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Molly Parker
   |
Posted - 2004.08.09 07:16:00 -
[511]
Edited by: Molly Parker on 09/08/2004 07:18:14
Hey guys !
I got a new shiny tempest and tested different setups. However I have to 100 % agree with u. At the moment I have a barrely armor tanking setup, but its nothing compared to amarr. Same counts for lasers vs. projectile. I was hunting bs spawns with a corp member and he did so much more damage with his apoc and 8 mega pulse lasers while being armor tanked survived situations easily while I would never make it.
So what is the ship intended for right now ?
- Shooting ? Can't be. I worked at around opt range with a tracking computer and 1200 artys. Still couldn't deal that much dmg over time cause he has this very much better firing rate while not needing any ammo. He also has the benefit of being able to choose from a big list of weapons where the minmatar have only 2 types of artys - big and bigger.
- Armor tanking ? Right... Missing LowSlot for that and a slightly better cap recharge rate would help maybe.
- Shield tanking ? Not possible without the old cap relays.
So far I managed to see that you can't really have a good defense with the tempest and offensive tasks can't be done either. ECM is also not really working compared to caldari. In generell it hasn't the best shield and armor values. With the default drone bay it is not that either.
What IS the minmatar strength now ? Can't be speed. That little bonus...
Hope that another post about it will finally bring the problem to attention of the GMs and Devs.
Molly
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Molly Parker
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 07:16:00 -
[512]
Edited by: Molly Parker on 09/08/2004 07:18:14
Hey guys !
I got a new shiny tempest and tested different setups. However I have to 100 % agree with u. At the moment I have a barrely armor tanking setup, but its nothing compared to amarr. Same counts for lasers vs. projectile. I was hunting bs spawns with a corp member and he did so much more damage with his apoc and 8 mega pulse lasers while being armor tanked survived situations easily while I would never make it.
So what is the ship intended for right now ?
- Shooting ? Can't be. I worked at around opt range with a tracking computer and 1200 artys. Still couldn't deal that much dmg over time cause he has this very much better firing rate while not needing any ammo. He also has the benefit of being able to choose from a big list of weapons where the minmatar have only 2 types of artys - big and bigger.
- Armor tanking ? Right... Missing LowSlot for that and a slightly better cap recharge rate would help maybe.
- Shield tanking ? Not possible without the old cap relays.
So far I managed to see that you can't really have a good defense with the tempest and offensive tasks can't be done either. ECM is also not really working compared to caldari. In generell it hasn't the best shield and armor values. With the default drone bay it is not that either.
What IS the minmatar strength now ? Can't be speed. That little bonus...
Hope that another post about it will finally bring the problem to attention of the GMs and Devs.
Molly
|
allmus
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 12:19:00 -
[513]
i reacon the armor tanking of a tempest is ok, not good, but livable
i can set up my tempest(with skills) with the following
2 named large armor repairers, 1 1600mm armor plating(named)
i can also fit 4x1400mm gun's with that setup, and that's ok
the only problem with that setup is that all my med slot's need to be cap recharges to make a half decent tanking, and that means no tracking slot's avail then, i have try'd without the cap recharges and having tracking in the middle, and the hit's still suck, but not i can't even last 1/8 of the time i could with the cap recharges
please look into this ccp, something needs to be done to RE-balance the temepst, it's totally outclassed by every single tier2 BS, and even the armaggedon is better that it, AND THAT'S A BLOODY TIER 1 SHIP!!
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
allmus
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 12:19:00 -
[514]
i reacon the armor tanking of a tempest is ok, not good, but livable
i can set up my tempest(with skills) with the following
2 named large armor repairers, 1 1600mm armor plating(named)
i can also fit 4x1400mm gun's with that setup, and that's ok
the only problem with that setup is that all my med slot's need to be cap recharges to make a half decent tanking, and that means no tracking slot's avail then, i have try'd without the cap recharges and having tracking in the middle, and the hit's still suck, but not i can't even last 1/8 of the time i could with the cap recharges
please look into this ccp, something needs to be done to RE-balance the temepst, it's totally outclassed by every single tier2 BS, and even the armaggedon is better that it, AND THAT'S A BLOODY TIER 1 SHIP!!
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
GrandReaper
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 13:58:00 -
[515]
The problem is this. Minmatar ships canÆt do anything good.
All the BS should be good at something. If Tempest has the ôsniperö role then it should have the longest locking range of all BS. And as it use to be, if you did not have any good skills, least BS + large proj at lv 4 you did crapy damage. With the other guns you did good damage over time when you had lv2-3. But when you did have lv 4-5, you where a force to be reckon with. The second problem is that you canÆt be an armor tanking Tempest and still dealing damage. And that leaves it to shield tanking. But when the low slot cap rechargeÆs have a penalty I shield boosting its makes no real sense. Cap rechargeÆs should not have a shield penalty or a penalty what so ever. If they must, make the mid one have penalty on armor and the low on shield. 
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GrandReaper
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 13:58:00 -
[516]
The problem is this. Minmatar ships canÆt do anything good.
All the BS should be good at something. If Tempest has the ôsniperö role then it should have the longest locking range of all BS. And as it use to be, if you did not have any good skills, least BS + large proj at lv 4 you did crapy damage. With the other guns you did good damage over time when you had lv2-3. But when you did have lv 4-5, you where a force to be reckon with. The second problem is that you canÆt be an armor tanking Tempest and still dealing damage. And that leaves it to shield tanking. But when the low slot cap rechargeÆs have a penalty I shield boosting its makes no real sense. Cap rechargeÆs should not have a shield penalty or a penalty what so ever. If they must, make the mid one have penalty on armor and the low on shield.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.08.09 14:02:00 -
[517]
Well . im still so bored of torpedos so im going to Change my raven for tempest 
WTT Raven for temppy 
-------------------------------------------
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Siddy
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 14:02:00 -
[518]
Well . im still so bored of torpedos so im going to Change my raven for tempest
WTT Raven for temppy
-------------------------------------------
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Noin
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 14:52:00 -
[519]
I'll trade Siddy
I'm serious.
Can I send you a msg in game?
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Noin
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 14:52:00 -
[520]
I'll trade Siddy
I'm serious.
Can I send you a msg in game?
|
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 15:46:00 -
[521]
Increase the range on 1400s for the love of God, and while you're at it give them decent DoT as well. Leave the tanking as it is, Minmatar don't tank.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 15:46:00 -
[522]
Increase the range on 1400s for the love of God, and while you're at it give them decent DoT as well. Leave the tanking as it is, Minmatar don't tank.
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Amira
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 16:32:00 -
[523]
 Originally by: allmus
i reacon the armor tanking of a tempest is ok, not good, but livable
i can set up my tempest(with skills) with the following
2 named large armor repairers, 1 1600mm armor plating(named)
i can also fit 4x1400mm gun's with that setup, and that's ok
1600 armor plates don't help you tank. The point of tanking is to repair damage as fast as you take it, not just need more damage to die. Fit an armor hardener or cap relay to power those 2 large repairers and you'll be tanking. A 1600 plate is just a delay tactic.
-----------------------------------------------
"The Spartans ask not how many, but where they are." -Agis II of Sparta
'Valor is the contempt of death and pain.' -Tacitus |
Amira
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 16:32:00 -
[524]
Originally by: allmus
i reacon the armor tanking of a tempest is ok, not good, but livable
i can set up my tempest(with skills) with the following
2 named large armor repairers, 1 1600mm armor plating(named)
i can also fit 4x1400mm gun's with that setup, and that's ok
1600 armor plates don't help you tank. The point of tanking is to repair damage as fast as you take it, not just need more damage to die. Fit an armor hardener or cap relay to power those 2 large repairers and you'll be tanking. A 1600 plate is just a delay tactic.
-----------------------------------------------
"The Spartans ask not how many, but where they are." -Agis II of Sparta
'Valor is the contempt of death and pain.' -Tacitus |
Teeth
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 20:48:00 -
[525]
My 2 cents:
1. One of projectile guns' strength was falloff. When falloff got tuned a couple of patches ago, projectile falloff was hit by 50%, hybrids by 20% and lasers by 0%. Sure, falloff was supposed to have new properties, but really all guns should've had their falloff halved for this change to be fair. Disproportionally tuning projectiles just makes this type of gun lose one of its advantages.
2. ALL long range battleship guns were effectively nerfed. In real terms the situation was: short range guns did more damage and worked at short range only, long range guns did less damage but worked at short range and long range. After the patch the current situation is: long range guns work at long range only.
This effectively means that with respect to the previous balance they were nerfed. This affected the tempest in the same way as megathron would be affected if all short range guns would be lowered in damage.
3. After falloff/tracking changes projectiles have a big hole in the 20-30km natural optimal range. This wasn't needed immediately after the patch as 800's would deal damage well into 30km. Their falloff was nerfed soon after and 1200's don't quite fill this mid-range role. It makes sense to me that maybe dual 650's or 800's would take this role? They're kind of make each other redundant right now.
4. Shield tanking was nerfed with cap power relays.
5. The minnie's supposed edge is speed but this has never made a big difference in battleship combat as the difference from bs to bs is so small.
6. The boosting of nearly every BS's powergrid has led to much more "extreme" setup possibilities. It used to be that having 6 turret slots didn't hurt too much because you couldn't fit much more than 6 top of the line guns. Now being a jack of all trades has actually hurt the tempest as it loses over more specialized ship setups.
Overall I just think a lot of "small" changes added up and made the tempest a lot less desirable than other ships. I don't think it got singled out by the devs for nerfing on purpose, it's just that in some way other ships were "boosted" more (amarr received a ton of pgrid love and ravens had their net damage increased).
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
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Teeth
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 20:48:00 -
[526]
My 2 cents:
1. One of projectile guns' strength was falloff. When falloff got tuned a couple of patches ago, projectile falloff was hit by 50%, hybrids by 20% and lasers by 0%. Sure, falloff was supposed to have new properties, but really all guns should've had their falloff halved for this change to be fair. Disproportionally tuning projectiles just makes this type of gun lose one of its advantages.
2. ALL long range battleship guns were effectively nerfed. In real terms the situation was: short range guns did more damage and worked at short range only, long range guns did less damage but worked at short range and long range. After the patch the current situation is: long range guns work at long range only.
This effectively means that with respect to the previous balance they were nerfed. This affected the tempest in the same way as megathron would be affected if all short range guns would be lowered in damage.
3. After falloff/tracking changes projectiles have a big hole in the 20-30km natural optimal range. This wasn't needed immediately after the patch as 800's would deal damage well into 30km. Their falloff was nerfed soon after and 1200's don't quite fill this mid-range role. It makes sense to me that maybe dual 650's or 800's would take this role? They're kind of make each other redundant right now.
4. Shield tanking was nerfed with cap power relays.
5. The minnie's supposed edge is speed but this has never made a big difference in battleship combat as the difference from bs to bs is so small.
6. The boosting of nearly every BS's powergrid has led to much more "extreme" setup possibilities. It used to be that having 6 turret slots didn't hurt too much because you couldn't fit much more than 6 top of the line guns. Now being a jack of all trades has actually hurt the tempest as it loses over more specialized ship setups.
Overall I just think a lot of "small" changes added up and made the tempest a lot less desirable than other ships. I don't think it got singled out by the devs for nerfing on purpose, it's just that in some way other ships were "boosted" more (amarr received a ton of pgrid love and ravens had their net damage increased).
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
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Noin
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 21:40:00 -
[527]
Excellent post there Teeth, thats exactly hits the spot.
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Noin
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 21:40:00 -
[528]
Excellent post there Teeth, thats exactly hits the spot.
|
Sewell
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 22:22:00 -
[529]
Good post Teeth.
Quote:
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
I also feel a bit lost in my minmatar identity.
Gallente have drones, and close combat (blasters)
Cladari have missiles, and shield tanking.
Amarr have lots of cap and great armor tanking.
Nearly all of the above mentioned abilities have been tuned/improved lately. Meanwhile proj turrets were hit with the nerfbat, and now all we minmatar have is... speed?
There is really lack of speciality with the Minmatar ships/race now. Speed works ok for frigs, cause there it matters (at least to some degree). The Minmatar speed advantage on cruisers and battleships on the other hand is very slight, and there the bonus really don't matter that much anyway. The "get in fast and do much dmg" concept that have been mentioned by devs in the past is something I think would fit the minmatar well - only the problem now is projectiles don't do that much dmg...
Let the minmatar ships be weak on the defence (as now) but at least give them some more offensive punch to make up for it.
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Sewell
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 22:22:00 -
[530]
Good post Teeth.
Quote:
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
I also feel a bit lost in my minmatar identity.
Gallente have drones, and close combat (blasters)
Cladari have missiles, and shield tanking.
Amarr have lots of cap and great armor tanking.
Nearly all of the above mentioned abilities have been tuned/improved lately. Meanwhile proj turrets were hit with the nerfbat, and now all we minmatar have is... speed?
There is really lack of speciality with the Minmatar ships/race now. Speed works ok for frigs, cause there it matters (at least to some degree). The Minmatar speed advantage on cruisers and battleships on the other hand is very slight, and there the bonus really don't matter that much anyway. The "get in fast and do much dmg" concept that have been mentioned by devs in the past is something I think would fit the minmatar well - only the problem now is projectiles don't do that much dmg...
Let the minmatar ships be weak on the defence (as now) but at least give them some more offensive punch to make up for it.
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Shimatu
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 22:36:00 -
[531]
caldari have shield tanking? really? well brilliant. except that shield tanking kindof sucks, due to the cap relay nerf.
a scorp or a raven can be made much tougher by armour tanking instead, and filling those juicy med slots with cap rechargers.
sure, we have missiles...and you have projectiles. so wheres the problem? thats still identity...
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
|
Shimatu
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 22:36:00 -
[532]
caldari have shield tanking? really? well brilliant. except that shield tanking kindof sucks, due to the cap relay nerf.
a scorp or a raven can be made much tougher by armour tanking instead, and filling those juicy med slots with cap rechargers.
sure, we have missiles...and you have projectiles. so wheres the problem? thats still identity...
3-I's T2 sales can be found HERE
|
Selim
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 23:09:00 -
[533]
Sigh... I thought I'd never go back to this thread, but I'm still sick of the projectiles being horrible. Not only do they have the worst damage over time of all turrets, their tracking sucks, which means they never hit anyway, and when they do its for low damage. No cap usage is not a benefit as minmatar ships have the lowest base capacitor anyway.
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Selim
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 23:09:00 -
[534]
Sigh... I thought I'd never go back to this thread, but I'm still sick of the projectiles being horrible. Not only do they have the worst damage over time of all turrets, their tracking sucks, which means they never hit anyway, and when they do its for low damage. No cap usage is not a benefit as minmatar ships have the lowest base capacitor anyway.
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Presidio
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 23:54:00 -
[535]
Edited by: Presidio on 09/08/2004 23:59:20
Originally by: Shimatu
caldari have shield tanking? really? well brilliant. except that shield tanking kindof sucks, due to the cap relay nerf.
a scorp or a raven can be made much tougher by armour tanking instead, and filling those juicy med slots with cap rechargers.
sure, we have missiles...and you have projectiles. so wheres the problem? thats still identity...
Raven: great damage dealer with torps. It can also be configred for the long range mid-fight by switching to cruise missile on the fly. It does way more damage over time than projectile using Tempest pilot. Tempest is by far inferior to Raven atm. Just like projectiles missile lounchers use no cap, and just like projectiles missiles and torps can do all 4 damage types. Yet the difference in DoT is huge.
Scorpion: it's in a class of its own. This king of EW has been one of the best PvP ships since the release of the game.
So before you start whinning about how bad caldari ships are, maybe you should read the subject of this thread and try flying a tempest.
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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Presidio
|
Posted - 2004.08.09 23:54:00 -
[536]
Edited by: Presidio on 09/08/2004 23:59:20
Originally by: Shimatu
caldari have shield tanking? really? well brilliant. except that shield tanking kindof sucks, due to the cap relay nerf.
a scorp or a raven can be made much tougher by armour tanking instead, and filling those juicy med slots with cap rechargers.
sure, we have missiles...and you have projectiles. so wheres the problem? thats still identity...
Raven: great damage dealer with torps. It can also be configred for the long range mid-fight by switching to cruise missile on the fly. It does way more damage over time than projectile using Tempest pilot. Tempest is by far inferior to Raven atm. Just like projectiles missile lounchers use no cap, and just like projectiles missiles and torps can do all 4 damage types. Yet the difference in DoT is huge.
Scorpion: it's in a class of its own. This king of EW has been one of the best PvP ships since the release of the game.
So before you start whinning about how bad caldari ships are, maybe you should read the subject of this thread and try flying a tempest.
-
"Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive."
Mao Tse-tung
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Saphyre
|
Posted - 2004.08.10 00:30:00 -
[537]
Originally by: Teeth
My 2 cents:
1. One of projectile guns' strength was falloff. When falloff got tuned a couple of patches ago, projectile falloff was hit by 50%, hybrids by 20% and lasers by 0%. Sure, falloff was supposed to have new properties, but really all guns should've had their falloff halved for this change to be fair. Disproportionally tuning projectiles just makes this type of gun lose one of its advantages.
2. ALL long range battleship guns were effectively nerfed. In real terms the situation was: short range guns did more damage and worked at short range only, long range guns did less damage but worked at short range and long range. After the patch the current situation is: long range guns work at long range only.
This effectively means that with respect to the previous balance they were nerfed. This affected the tempest in the same way as megathron would be affected if all short range guns would be lowered in damage.
3. After falloff/tracking changes projectiles have a big hole in the 20-30km natural optimal range. This wasn't needed immediately after the patch as 800's would deal damage well into 30km. Their falloff was nerfed soon after and 1200's don't quite fill this mid-range role. It makes sense to me that maybe dual 650's or 800's would take this role? They're kind of make each other redundant right now.
4. Shield tanking was nerfed with cap power relays.
5. The minnie's supposed edge is speed but this has never made a big difference in battleship combat as the difference from bs to bs is so small.
6. The boosting of nearly every BS's powergrid has led to much more "extreme" setup possibilities. It used to be that having 6 turret slots didn't hurt too much because you couldn't fit much more than 6 top of the line guns. Now being a jack of all trades has actually hurt the tempest as it loses over more specialized ship setups.
Overall I just think a lot of "small" changes added up and made the tempest a lot less desirable than other ships. I don't think it got singled out by the devs for nerfing on purpose, it's just that in some way other ships were "boosted" more (amarr received a ton of pgrid love and ravens had their net damage increased).
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
Excellent post by my Celestial Apocalypse friend Give tempest some lovin'! 
|
Saphyre
|
Posted - 2004.08.10 00:30:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Teeth
My 2 cents:
1. One of projectile guns' strength was falloff. When falloff got tuned a couple of patches ago, projectile falloff was hit by 50%, hybrids by 20% and lasers by 0%. Sure, falloff was supposed to have new properties, but really all guns should've had their falloff halved for this change to be fair. Disproportionally tuning projectiles just makes this type of gun lose one of its advantages.
2. ALL long range battleship guns were effectively nerfed. In real terms the situation was: short range guns did more damage and worked at short range only, long range guns did less damage but worked at short range and long range. After the patch the current situation is: long range guns work at long range only.
This effectively means that with respect to the previous balance they were nerfed. This affected the tempest in the same way as megathron would be affected if all short range guns would be lowered in damage.
3. After falloff/tracking changes projectiles have a big hole in the 20-30km natural optimal range. This wasn't needed immediately after the patch as 800's would deal damage well into 30km. Their falloff was nerfed soon after and 1200's don't quite fill this mid-range role. It makes sense to me that maybe dual 650's or 800's would take this role? They're kind of make each other redundant right now.
4. Shield tanking was nerfed with cap power relays.
5. The minnie's supposed edge is speed but this has never made a big difference in battleship combat as the difference from bs to bs is so small.
6. The boosting of nearly every BS's powergrid has led to much more "extreme" setup possibilities. It used to be that having 6 turret slots didn't hurt too much because you couldn't fit much more than 6 top of the line guns. Now being a jack of all trades has actually hurt the tempest as it loses over more specialized ship setups.
Overall I just think a lot of "small" changes added up and made the tempest a lot less desirable than other ships. I don't think it got singled out by the devs for nerfing on purpose, it's just that in some way other ships were "boosted" more (amarr received a ton of pgrid love and ravens had their net damage increased).
Also I'd like to see Minmatar battleships get a bit of better focus. We really need a clear edge in at least one useful category. We're supposed to be the hit and run race with lots of damage and good speed. I think the rifter is the only ship that feels this way and even then all the other races got "rifters" of their own in the way of interceptors :-/ What does that leave us with?
Excellent post by my Celestial Apocalypse friend Give tempest some lovin'!
|
Finderne
|
Posted - 2004.08.10 03:44:00 -
[539]
Yep, Teeth said it concisely and clearly.
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Finderne
|
Posted - 2004.08.10 03:44:00 -
[540]
Yep, Teeth said it concisely and clearly.
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