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JoCool	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:20:00 - [91] Edited by: JoCool on 15/07/2004 14:25:37 It's not the Tempest that is broken, it's shield tanking. The armor tanking buff was overdone, the capacitor power relay nerf is ridiculous and renders them unuseable for shield tanks. Armor tanks have a much better energy efficiency already. They should require 20 or 30 Cpu instead of 3 and have no penalty to shield boosting. If you want to prevent Apocs from shield tanking, move one midslot to the lows. Is better for armor tanks and effectively prevents shield tanking. 2 birds with one shot.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:20:00 - [92] Edited by: JoCool on 15/07/2004 14:25:37 It's not the Tempest that is broken, it's shield tanking. The armor tanking buff was overdone, the capacitor power relay nerf is ridiculous and renders them unuseable for shield tanks. Armor tanks have a much better energy efficiency already. They should require 20 or 30 Cpu instead of 3 and have no penalty to shield boosting. If you want to prevent Apocs from shield tanking, move one midslot to the lows. Is better for armor tanks and effectively prevents shield tanking. 2 birds with one shot.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:24:00 - [93] Because the Tempest is the one ship that cannot tank well, it needs to do loads more damage. I say increase the tracking on all autocannons to blaster level. As for artillery, boost the damage modifier. I'm not saying make it the uber deathship that everyone flys, like it used to be, or the raven is now, just make it have a specialty - lots and lots of damage, its weakness is it cant tank.
Selim	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:24:00 - [94] Because the Tempest is the one ship that cannot tank well, it needs to do loads more damage. I say increase the tracking on all autocannons to blaster level. As for artillery, boost the damage modifier. I'm not saying make it the uber deathship that everyone flys, like it used to be, or the raven is now, just make it have a specialty - lots and lots of damage, its weakness is it cant tank.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:29:00 - [95] That sounds quite good too. Ships with certain edges make the game more fun and pvp more unique for everyone.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:29:00 - [96] That sounds quite good too. Ships with certain edges make the game more fun and pvp more unique for everyone.
GFLTorque	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:37:00 - [97] I totally agree with this: Originally by: ProphetGuru Yes I am concentrating on the 1v1 aspect primarily. I don't think you properly balance ships by their fleet combat attributes. I also do not think you balance ships by having full racks of scouts, and all named gear. That is chaos syndrome.. Ships need to be balanced towards stock equipment, and I do believe tomb normally asks tests to be done using stock modules, as opposed to meta ones. The bottom line is a tempest will not survive long enough given it's lower dot to kill another ship, before it is out tanked and killed. (I am talking about two skilled experienced pilots of course) I have stated before and I still believe a viable option would be to Reduce The Tempest 1 launcher slot, and add a turret slot in its place, while adjusting a small amount of CPU and PWG. This solution would allow for more DOT with guns, and allow for more dmg modifier bonus and bs level bonus, and large projectile bonus to be realized. As it is now, good PVP'ers do not fit 6 1400mm's in battles vs good opponents if they do they die. If that were a true viable option the reduced tanking would be tolerable, as the DOT would make the risk more attractive. "...the tempest does not use capacitor." This is the same arguement that ppl that DONT fly Tempest use. Please check the STARTING Capacitor size of ships, and then tell me the amount of Capacitor a Raven Uses firing Torpedeos or Cruise MIssles? The Apoc is capacitor OVERLOADED currently. IMO the only ppl that might have a true beef about not having capicitor may be the Mega ppl. 4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
GFLTorque	Posted - 2004.07.15 14:37:00 - [98] I totally agree with this: Originally by: ProphetGuru Yes I am concentrating on the 1v1 aspect primarily. I don't think you properly balance ships by their fleet combat attributes. I also do not think you balance ships by having full racks of scouts, and all named gear. That is chaos syndrome.. Ships need to be balanced towards stock equipment, and I do believe tomb normally asks tests to be done using stock modules, as opposed to meta ones. The bottom line is a tempest will not survive long enough given it's lower dot to kill another ship, before it is out tanked and killed. (I am talking about two skilled experienced pilots of course) I have stated before and I still believe a viable option would be to Reduce The Tempest 1 launcher slot, and add a turret slot in its place, while adjusting a small amount of CPU and PWG. This solution would allow for more DOT with guns, and allow for more dmg modifier bonus and bs level bonus, and large projectile bonus to be realized. As it is now, good PVP'ers do not fit 6 1400mm's in battles vs good opponents if they do they die. If that were a true viable option the reduced tanking would be tolerable, as the DOT would make the risk more attractive. "...the tempest does not use capacitor." This is the same arguement that ppl that DONT fly Tempest use. Please check the STARTING Capacitor size of ships, and then tell me the amount of Capacitor a Raven Uses firing Torpedeos or Cruise MIssles? The Apoc is capacitor OVERLOADED currently. IMO the only ppl that might have a true beef about not having capicitor may be the Mega ppl. 4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2004.07.15 16:00:00 - [99] I dont fly a tempest myself but considering the fact that it has a sig radius of 340(afaik) it would work very well combined with a tracking disruptor. Now to shield tanking: Give the PDU's a shield booster bonus not a shield recharge rate bonus And maybe introduce those shield skills which give you 5%(could be changed to maybe 3%) resistance each level. Greetings Grim
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2004.07.15 16:00:00 - [100] I dont fly a tempest myself but considering the fact that it has a sig radius of 340(afaik) it would work very well combined with a tracking disruptor. Now to shield tanking: Give the PDU's a shield booster bonus not a shield recharge rate bonus And maybe introduce those shield skills which give you 5%(could be changed to maybe 3%) resistance each level. Greetings Grim
Beseb	Posted - 2004.07.15 16:54:00 - [101] After thinking more about this, I believe the solution lies outside the ship itself. This is somewhat of a radical idea, but I think it has merit. Add a new stat to each module - Ship Bonus. Basically, each module would have a bonus or penalty when equipped on a give ship type (race specific generally). Example: Speed modules on Minmatar ships would all get 10% bonuses when fitted. That same module fitted on a Calderi ship (the slowest generally) would get a 10% penalty. The other 2 would get something in between. The same would apply with essentially every class of module in the game. Those races that favor a given module type would get the best bonus and it would scale down to a penalty when fitted on a race ship that didn't favor them. The biggest drawback of course would be the new balancing nightmare that would ensue, but I have to admit, I like lots of depth and options when it comes to fitting my ships. Since all this is probably a pipe dream, I have to lean again towards something more reasonable. Either give us more base speed or increase our base cap by about 10% which would most likely solve the serious cap issues Tempests have.
Beseb	Posted - 2004.07.15 16:54:00 - [102] After thinking more about this, I believe the solution lies outside the ship itself. This is somewhat of a radical idea, but I think it has merit. Add a new stat to each module - Ship Bonus. Basically, each module would have a bonus or penalty when equipped on a give ship type (race specific generally). Example: Speed modules on Minmatar ships would all get 10% bonuses when fitted. That same module fitted on a Calderi ship (the slowest generally) would get a 10% penalty. The other 2 would get something in between. The same would apply with essentially every class of module in the game. Those races that favor a given module type would get the best bonus and it would scale down to a penalty when fitted on a race ship that didn't favor them. The biggest drawback of course would be the new balancing nightmare that would ensue, but I have to admit, I like lots of depth and options when it comes to fitting my ships. Since all this is probably a pipe dream, I have to lean again towards something more reasonable. Either give us more base speed or increase our base cap by about 10% which would most likely solve the serious cap issues Tempests have.
Siddy	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:14:00 - [103] Originally by: hellwarrior Edited by: hellwarrior on 15/07/2004 06:38:54 Also battleships should get larger cargos! :> 10-20% more... need to be better at mining (or atleast that is my excuse to be able to fit more 800 cap charges) Ahhh t3h golden agen of 800 cap bat Charges... i used to lay havock whit AC tempest runned even by one of them and outstand 3 BS fire whit raven fitted whit 2 large injektors and armor tank .... atleast i used to do that month ago -------------------------------------------
Siddy	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:14:00 - [104] Originally by: hellwarrior Edited by: hellwarrior on 15/07/2004 06:38:54 Also battleships should get larger cargos! :> 10-20% more... need to be better at mining (or atleast that is my excuse to be able to fit more 800 cap charges) Ahhh t3h golden agen of 800 cap bat Charges... i used to lay havock whit AC tempest runned even by one of them and outstand 3 BS fire whit raven fitted whit 2 large injektors and armor tank .... atleast i used to do that month ago -------------------------------------------
Option1	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:17:00 - [105] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 22:55:04 Hmmm I'm not sure on this. I don't fly a Tempest myself, but I'm pretty sure it can be fitted to be a monster at close range. I'd go something like this: 6x dual650mm scouts 2x heavy nosferaty quad lif MWD heavy electro cap injector fleeting web 7.5km scrambler tech 2 damagemod 3 hardeners 2 L accomodation repairers Unsure about the last medslot. With BS lvl 5 projectiles comes very close to blasters in damage output. While a megathron has one more turret and 2-4 more drones, * I'd say the projectile EM/exp combo is better than the hybrid th/kin combo against BOTH armor tanking and shield tanking opponents. * Due to weapons hardly using cap, and 2 nosferatu, the tempest can actually keep all guns and 2 L acco repairers running as long as it has cap charges left. A Megathron can't run more than guns + 1 L acco. * The higher max speed of a tempest surely helps alot to get in range faster and waste less cap charges on MWD. Or you could switch one repairer for a damagemod and a nosferatu for a siege with torps to go with a more damage setup. However, I agree with the shield boosting... The cap relay nerf was wrong IMO. They shouldn't affect shield boosting. But their cpu usage could be upped alot to get them on pair with powerdiags/rechargers. Originally by: Beseb Minmatar specialty is supposed to be speed, but 30ms over other T2 battleships is too paltry to be signficant on the battlefield. I'd like to see something that allows us highly specialized Minmatar pilots (I too have Min BS 5)to leverage that speed. Either increase the base speed to 200/225 (Tempest/Typhoon) or give us something unique like bonuses to AB/MWD.. 200 - LOL Damn, I'd be jumping of joy if my megathron would have 30 m/s higher base speed. aren't Nos classed as turret pts therefore u can't fit 6 dual 650's and 2 nos?
Option1	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:17:00 - [106] Originally by: dalman Edited by: dalman on 14/07/2004 22:55:04 Hmmm I'm not sure on this. I don't fly a Tempest myself, but I'm pretty sure it can be fitted to be a monster at close range. I'd go something like this: 6x dual650mm scouts 2x heavy nosferaty quad lif MWD heavy electro cap injector fleeting web 7.5km scrambler tech 2 damagemod 3 hardeners 2 L accomodation repairers Unsure about the last medslot. With BS lvl 5 projectiles comes very close to blasters in damage output. While a megathron has one more turret and 2-4 more drones, * I'd say the projectile EM/exp combo is better than the hybrid th/kin combo against BOTH armor tanking and shield tanking opponents. * Due to weapons hardly using cap, and 2 nosferatu, the tempest can actually keep all guns and 2 L acco repairers running as long as it has cap charges left. A Megathron can't run more than guns + 1 L acco. * The higher max speed of a tempest surely helps alot to get in range faster and waste less cap charges on MWD. Or you could switch one repairer for a damagemod and a nosferatu for a siege with torps to go with a more damage setup. However, I agree with the shield boosting... The cap relay nerf was wrong IMO. They shouldn't affect shield boosting. But their cpu usage could be upped alot to get them on pair with powerdiags/rechargers. Originally by: Beseb Minmatar specialty is supposed to be speed, but 30ms over other T2 battleships is too paltry to be signficant on the battlefield. I'd like to see something that allows us highly specialized Minmatar pilots (I too have Min BS 5)to leverage that speed. Either increase the base speed to 200/225 (Tempest/Typhoon) or give us something unique like bonuses to AB/MWD.. 200 - LOL Damn, I'd be jumping of joy if my megathron would have 30 m/s higher base speed. aren't Nos classed as turret pts therefore u can't fit 6 dual 650's and 2 nos?
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:19:00 - [107] Hybrids/Energy weapons/Projectiles = Turrets Missile Launchers = Launchers Everything else such as smartbombs, nosferatus, neutralizers, auto-targeting stuff etc = not classed, always fits.
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.07.15 17:19:00 - [108] Hybrids/Energy weapons/Projectiles = Turrets Missile Launchers = Launchers Everything else such as smartbombs, nosferatus, neutralizers, auto-targeting stuff etc = not classed, always fits.
snutt	Posted - 2004.07.15 18:56:00 - [109] Hybrids uses the most cpu of all turrets, projectiles have the least, though both Tempest and the Megathron got the same CPU, why? Yes that's right, Minmatars are more to shieldtanking. It's not the Tempest that's the issue, it's the CPR that needs a tad bit of unnerfing/reworking. End of story. Mess with the best, die like the rest Real men structure tank
snutt	Posted - 2004.07.15 18:56:00 - [110] Hybrids uses the most cpu of all turrets, projectiles have the least, though both Tempest and the Megathron got the same CPU, why? Yes that's right, Minmatars are more to shieldtanking. It's not the Tempest that's the issue, it's the CPR that needs a tad bit of unnerfing/reworking. End of story. Mess with the best, die like the rest Real men structure tank
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:16:00 - [111] An all turret setup is begging to be target jammed. I hear the 1v1 issues, but how is the tempest in 2v2? Is there no such thing as 1/2 shield and 1/2 armor tank? Just asking for informations sake cause i dont have enough isk to buy my first BS yet. Its gonna be a tempest though cause the stupid typhoon can't mine well enough... ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Imhotep Khem	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:16:00 - [112] An all turret setup is begging to be target jammed. I hear the 1v1 issues, but how is the tempest in 2v2? Is there no such thing as 1/2 shield and 1/2 armor tank? Just asking for informations sake cause i dont have enough isk to buy my first BS yet. Its gonna be a tempest though cause the stupid typhoon can't mine well enough... ____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:17:00 - [113] While I agree the cpr nerf could stand to be looked at, I don't know if stating that the cpr is the only problem with the tempest. In fact, I think that may be over simplifing the issue somewhat. In all honesty, I'm not sure I wanna see apocs runnin around with 7 cpr again. The problem is the tempest low dot COMBINED with it's lack of defense. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:17:00 - [114] While I agree the cpr nerf could stand to be looked at, I don't know if stating that the cpr is the only problem with the tempest. In fact, I think that may be over simplifing the issue somewhat. In all honesty, I'm not sure I wanna see apocs runnin around with 7 cpr again. The problem is the tempest low dot COMBINED with it's lack of defense. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
monkeyman33	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:54:00 - [115] Hey All, Long time Tempest Pilot here. Try rigging 4 Cruise Missle Launchers, 2 Heavy Nofs, and 2 1400s. Gives you the room to very effectively armor tank, plus lots of room in the mid slots to go fast and take electronics. The tempest is still a great ship. It has plenty of cpu and power to run a good strong rig that can get you in and out of trouble, while dealing out lots of damage. In fact, the Tempest is one of those rare ships you can rig and be effective for both pvp combat, and anti-rat combo. Thanks to the devs for fixing the projectile nerf...that did suck. would be interested in trading a bit of powergrid for another low slot though (That would make the tempest a bad ass armor tanker. Monkeyman33
monkeyman33	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:54:00 - [116] Hey All, Long time Tempest Pilot here. Try rigging 4 Cruise Missle Launchers, 2 Heavy Nofs, and 2 1400s. Gives you the room to very effectively armor tank, plus lots of room in the mid slots to go fast and take electronics. The tempest is still a great ship. It has plenty of cpu and power to run a good strong rig that can get you in and out of trouble, while dealing out lots of damage. In fact, the Tempest is one of those rare ships you can rig and be effective for both pvp combat, and anti-rat combo. Thanks to the devs for fixing the projectile nerf...that did suck. would be interested in trading a bit of powergrid for another low slot though (That would make the tempest a bad ass armor tanker. Monkeyman33
Aleis	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:58:00 - [117] one more thing against the tempest as far as battle ships go is the fairly small drone bay only 1500m^3, And i'm 100% against the +1 turret -1 missle bay it's not in the Minmitar style and 6 turrets isn't that bad
Aleis	Posted - 2004.07.15 20:58:00 - [118] one more thing against the tempest as far as battle ships go is the fairly small drone bay only 1500m^3, And i'm 100% against the +1 turret -1 missle bay it's not in the Minmitar style and 6 turrets isn't that bad
dalman	Posted - 2004.07.15 23:41:00 - [119] Originally by: Aleis one more thing against the tempest as far as battle ships go is the fairly small drone bay only 1500m^3 Very bad idea. Drones = Gallante. + Battleships of all races has some drones to help defend against frigates. I'd rather see the drone bay on typhoons and armageddons reduced to 1500 too, so that gallante ships stand out. And some cruisers could do with a drone bay nerf too (and that includes the gallante cruisers). M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
dalman	Posted - 2004.07.15 23:41:00 - [120] Originally by: Aleis one more thing against the tempest as far as battle ships go is the fairly small drone bay only 1500m^3 Very bad idea. Drones = Gallante. + Battleships of all races has some drones to help defend against frigates. I'd rather see the drone bay on typhoons and armageddons reduced to 1500 too, so that gallante ships stand out. And some cruisers could do with a drone bay nerf too (and that includes the gallante cruisers). M.I.A. since 2004-07-30

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