| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 20 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Gariuys
   |
Posted - 2004.07.15 09:29:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: DREAMWORKS
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
Quite true in all likelyhood, cause when running the exact same setup that apoc will tank longer and do more damage, and that mega will outdamage you by quite a bit. That's why the setups shouldn't be the same. There's 4 modules that should be the same on all 3, and that's it. ;)
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 09:29:00 -
[62]
Originally by: DREAMWORKS
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
Quite true in all likelyhood, cause when running the exact same setup that apoc will tank longer and do more damage, and that mega will outdamage you by quite a bit. That's why the setups shouldn't be the same. There's 4 modules that should be the same on all 3, and that's it. ;)
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
allmus
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:12:00 -
[63]
if minmatar is made for speed, why not give the BS skill a 10% speed increase while inside a minmatar BS
just a passing thought..... blasting goes here
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
allmus
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:12:00 -
[64]
if minmatar is made for speed, why not give the BS skill a 10% speed increase while inside a minmatar BS
just a passing thought..... blasting goes here
this post was funded by Quafe
now available in minmatar red.
try our new product.
Quafe's caldari version "press missiles 4TW"
limited sales offer before the next universal improvement |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:13:00 -
[65]
Originally by: allmus
if minmatar is made for speed, why not give the BS skill a 10% speed increase while inside a minmatar BS
just a passing thought..... blasting goes here
cause they already have high base speed and low mass?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Gariuys
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:13:00 -
[66]
Originally by: allmus
if minmatar is made for speed, why not give the BS skill a 10% speed increase while inside a minmatar BS
just a passing thought..... blasting goes here
cause they already have high base speed and low mass?
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:48:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: DREAMWORKS
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
Quite true in all likelyhood, cause when running the exact same setup that apoc will tank longer and do more damage, and that mega will outdamage you by quite a bit. That's why the setups shouldn't be the same. There's 4 modules that should be the same on all 3, and that's it. ;)
So if it cannot outdamage a megathron, and cannot tank enough to keep up with the apoc's tank.... What good is it then.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
DREAMWORKS
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 10:48:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Gariuys
Originally by: DREAMWORKS
Cpu boost would be great yes... However currently i have a setup that is good, i do however know for sure that when a megathron or apoc runs the same setup with lower skills.. Then they would kill me within seconds in my tempest with maxed out skills.
Quite true in all likelyhood, cause when running the exact same setup that apoc will tank longer and do more damage, and that mega will outdamage you by quite a bit. That's why the setups shouldn't be the same. There's 4 modules that should be the same on all 3, and that's it. ;)
So if it cannot outdamage a megathron, and cannot tank enough to keep up with the apoc's tank.... What good is it then.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Shin Taka
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:24:00 -
[69]
I've been testing My tempest against a friend of late in his apoc, and while i have managed to come up with a good, solid tank setup, I've had to drop to using 1200mm and 4xcruise launchers.
While damage output ain't the best, the 1200mm track nicely, and score good hits, right down to 7-8km.
The biggest issue, is that to run a decent, fairly sustainable 2xLarge accom tank against an apoc, the cap is a struggle, but i can just about keep up with it. My cap skills are fairly maxed, but my gunnery is a little lacking. (most at 3-4)
I had to go for 1200mm and cruise, as the tanking needed all the low slots, i had to drop the RCU that lets me fit 1400mm or seige instead for a cap relay...
I still like the feel of the ship, but My friends apoc does seem (relatively) unbeatable, his cap stays steady with 8 lasers going, and his tank seems to totally remove my damage, it comes down to ammo\time\boredom, and the apoc is gonna win that fight...
The sheild tanking setup was a nightmare to fit in, and compared to the armour tank, had no sustainability.
-----------
Keeper of the Wombat
2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed. |
Shin Taka
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:24:00 -
[70]
I've been testing My tempest against a friend of late in his apoc, and while i have managed to come up with a good, solid tank setup, I've had to drop to using 1200mm and 4xcruise launchers.
While damage output ain't the best, the 1200mm track nicely, and score good hits, right down to 7-8km.
The biggest issue, is that to run a decent, fairly sustainable 2xLarge accom tank against an apoc, the cap is a struggle, but i can just about keep up with it. My cap skills are fairly maxed, but my gunnery is a little lacking. (most at 3-4)
I had to go for 1200mm and cruise, as the tanking needed all the low slots, i had to drop the RCU that lets me fit 1400mm or seige instead for a cap relay...
I still like the feel of the ship, but My friends apoc does seem (relatively) unbeatable, his cap stays steady with 8 lasers going, and his tank seems to totally remove my damage, it comes down to ammo\time\boredom, and the apoc is gonna win that fight...
The sheild tanking setup was a nightmare to fit in, and compared to the armour tank, had no sustainability.
-----------
Keeper of the Wombat
2004.09.03 00:42:20notifyTraining of the skill Repair Systems lvl 6 has been completed. |
Iluyen
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:34:00 -
[71]
After extensive testing, I have come to the conclusion that the tempest simply cannot tank dmg from a comparable lvl 2 bship. My testing is concerning close range setups.
The tempest lost out quite a bit with the hit to heavy launchers, and gets no bonus to siege/cruise launchers furthur dropping the dot of the ship itself vs other tier 2 bships.
The Tempest needs to become good at something, rather then be almost good at everything. Almost good gets you killed
Personally I can accept the tempest being the worst tanked tier II BS and not being as good at close range combat as other tier II BS in return for it ruling long range combat. This used to be the case before the "nerfbat patch".
While probably still doing the best long range damage these days I see the following problems with this long range tactic.
- armor tanking seems a bit overpowered making it very hard to kill from long range;
- current game mechanics favor short range combat, and tomB seems intent to burry MWD's, a module you need to stay at range, even deeper then they already have been. A possible alternative if an AB with low slot speed mods but as has been said the tempest already needs every low slot it can get so thats not really a viable option imo.
As has been suggested a significant increase in base speed for the tempest or the return of the old 5% level/speed bonus may be a solution (even though it that was addes to current bonuses people would start complaining about the tempest bonuses again).
An extra turret sounds nice but I doubt it would help much without a slight cpu/power boost.
Also prophet you seem a bit to focused 1 vs 1, I don't care about being worse at 1 vs 1 as long as the tempest is viable in small and large fleet battles accompanied by other ships (obvioysly long range damage will require someone to be close to warp scramble).
|
Iluyen
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:34:00 -
[72]
After extensive testing, I have come to the conclusion that the tempest simply cannot tank dmg from a comparable lvl 2 bship. My testing is concerning close range setups.
The tempest lost out quite a bit with the hit to heavy launchers, and gets no bonus to siege/cruise launchers furthur dropping the dot of the ship itself vs other tier 2 bships.
The Tempest needs to become good at something, rather then be almost good at everything. Almost good gets you killed
Personally I can accept the tempest being the worst tanked tier II BS and not being as good at close range combat as other tier II BS in return for it ruling long range combat. This used to be the case before the "nerfbat patch".
While probably still doing the best long range damage these days I see the following problems with this long range tactic.
- armor tanking seems a bit overpowered making it very hard to kill from long range;
- current game mechanics favor short range combat, and tomB seems intent to burry MWD's, a module you need to stay at range, even deeper then they already have been. A possible alternative if an AB with low slot speed mods but as has been said the tempest already needs every low slot it can get so thats not really a viable option imo.
As has been suggested a significant increase in base speed for the tempest or the return of the old 5% level/speed bonus may be a solution (even though it that was addes to current bonuses people would start complaining about the tempest bonuses again).
An extra turret sounds nice but I doubt it would help much without a slight cpu/power boost.
Also prophet you seem a bit to focused 1 vs 1, I don't care about being worse at 1 vs 1 as long as the tempest is viable in small and large fleet battles accompanied by other ships (obvioysly long range damage will require someone to be close to warp scramble).
|
Eximius
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:45:00 -
[73]
What about a 6th mid slot?
~Eximius, Reaver Templar
When a man's soul is forfeited, he is said to die. We did not. We were remade as demons of malice for an unworldy purpose. We are empty. Damned, for one cannot look unto the abyss and remain whole. ~ActiveX, 3 days after the Ascension |
Eximius
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:45:00 -
[74]
What about a 6th mid slot?
~Eximius, Reaver Templar
When a man's soul is forfeited, he is said to die. We did not. We were remade as demons of malice for an unworldy purpose. We are empty. Damned, for one cannot look unto the abyss and remain whole. ~ActiveX, 3 days after the Ascension |
Estios
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:48:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Estios on 15/07/2004 11:53:35
Hmmm quite a tricky topic, I too have flown a Tempest since way back before they were 'fashionable', hell I remember getting raped by uber tachs from PIE...anyway I digress.
I too feel that the Tempest has no particular niche in game anymore and is a jack of all trades, master of none. And whilst this may sound all well and good from the storyline aspect its pretty painful gameplay wise because in almost every situation you attempt to tailor yourself for you will come off 2nd best.
I have a very good armour tanked 1vs1/close range set up whcih is VERY similar to Dalmans (better if I must admit  ) which I was using for npc's in between last two patchs and have used a lot on Entropy but I have always found that if I go against a player of equal skills/fitting savvy the Tempest will come off 2nd best everytime to all other Tier 2 BS if they are fitted even nearly well.
I have solo'd Apocs and if they armour tank well there is no way I can kill them and they cannot kill me whilst I have cap charges left but eventually my cap charges will run out and their cap will still be healthy and thats with me using 2 heavy Nosferatus on them.
Also close range against a Blasterthron or a Torp spamming Raven the Tempest will fold in half before you can kill your enemy.
I have a fairly ok long range fleet set up with emphasis on shields but again its no damage dealer or tank really as to have any decent defense I must sacrifce a LOT of potential firepower and even at Range I feel the Apoc is currently greater because it can still tank even with long range setups.
I dont think the Tempest needs any extra slots as that WOULD make it overpowered and I DEFINATELY dont wanna see its ROF swapped for Missle bonus's. I think maybe it needs some extra cpu and a better cap recharge rate because to get any decent DOT out of 1400's you need dmg mods.
Ive just realised I havent actually got any strong idea's here because thats how confused I am about where the Tempest fits in. All I know is Ive NEVER owned or even flown a stinking Amarr slaver vessel and right now Im considering selling my Raven to buy an Uber Apoc. Ive had to put 'specialisiation' training (which CCP seem to crave we all do) on hold to train Amarr BS skills up a bit.
Saying we have a speed bonus is pretty lame coz its one of the most neglible differences in game at BS class.
Ive added pretty much nothing .....no change there.
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
|
Estios
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 11:48:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Estios on 15/07/2004 11:53:35
Hmmm quite a tricky topic, I too have flown a Tempest since way back before they were 'fashionable', hell I remember getting raped by uber tachs from PIE...anyway I digress.
I too feel that the Tempest has no particular niche in game anymore and is a jack of all trades, master of none. And whilst this may sound all well and good from the storyline aspect its pretty painful gameplay wise because in almost every situation you attempt to tailor yourself for you will come off 2nd best.
I have a very good armour tanked 1vs1/close range set up whcih is VERY similar to Dalmans (better if I must admit ) which I was using for npc's in between last two patchs and have used a lot on Entropy but I have always found that if I go against a player of equal skills/fitting savvy the Tempest will come off 2nd best everytime to all other Tier 2 BS if they are fitted even nearly well.
I have solo'd Apocs and if they armour tank well there is no way I can kill them and they cannot kill me whilst I have cap charges left but eventually my cap charges will run out and their cap will still be healthy and thats with me using 2 heavy Nosferatus on them.
Also close range against a Blasterthron or a Torp spamming Raven the Tempest will fold in half before you can kill your enemy.
I have a fairly ok long range fleet set up with emphasis on shields but again its no damage dealer or tank really as to have any decent defense I must sacrifce a LOT of potential firepower and even at Range I feel the Apoc is currently greater because it can still tank even with long range setups.
I dont think the Tempest needs any extra slots as that WOULD make it overpowered and I DEFINATELY dont wanna see its ROF swapped for Missle bonus's. I think maybe it needs some extra cpu and a better cap recharge rate because to get any decent DOT out of 1400's you need dmg mods.
Ive just realised I havent actually got any strong idea's here because thats how confused I am about where the Tempest fits in. All I know is Ive NEVER owned or even flown a stinking Amarr slaver vessel and right now Im considering selling my Raven to buy an Uber Apoc. Ive had to put 'specialisiation' training (which CCP seem to crave we all do) on hold to train Amarr BS skills up a bit.
Saying we have a speed bonus is pretty lame coz its one of the most neglible differences in game at BS class.
Ive added pretty much nothing .....no change there.
So HMV consider Andy Williams and Dean Martin to be "easy listening" do they? Tell that to my mate Dave, he's been deaf for 20 years.
|
Valeria
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 12:44:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rivek
Edited by: Rivek on 15/07/2004 03:59:55
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
Yeah, I don't think Tempest needs any more CPU. Don't think i've ever ran into CPU problems with it.
But Megathron has always dealt more damage than the Tempest. Some months ago I calculated a rail setup that would deal over 800 damage per second with the Megathron (that's unresisted damage mind you) while the Tempest maxed out on 400-500 something with the same range.
But the Tempest has one advantage; no cap usage on weapons. So you'd think it would be able to tank better to compensate for its lower damage output, but for some reason that's not really the case. I think that's what needs to change. The Megathron can armor tank well and still deal damage, the Tempest isn't that good at armor tanking and shield tanking is just frelled at the moment.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Valeria
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 12:44:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Rivek
Edited by: Rivek on 15/07/2004 03:59:55
Regarding the tempest cpu issues, consider the fact that a mega has the same cpu (550 base) and same grid (15500 base) and hybrids require significantly more cpu than projectiles.
Yeah, I don't think Tempest needs any more CPU. Don't think i've ever ran into CPU problems with it.
But Megathron has always dealt more damage than the Tempest. Some months ago I calculated a rail setup that would deal over 800 damage per second with the Megathron (that's unresisted damage mind you) while the Tempest maxed out on 400-500 something with the same range.
But the Tempest has one advantage; no cap usage on weapons. So you'd think it would be able to tank better to compensate for its lower damage output, but for some reason that's not really the case. I think that's what needs to change. The Megathron can armor tank well and still deal damage, the Tempest isn't that good at armor tanking and shield tanking is just frelled at the moment.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 12:47:00 -
[79]
I think the apoc love was overdone, and missiles arent quite finished yet.
Let the tempest be and adjust the unfinished balancing changes to the other ships.
After all, much the same can be said for the megathron, which is just master of one trade: short range. And even there a Raven or Apoc has nearly equal chances if not better.
So that's why my feeling is that Apoc and Raven love was a tad overdone lately.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Rod Blaine
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 12:47:00 -
[80]
I think the apoc love was overdone, and missiles arent quite finished yet.
Let the tempest be and adjust the unfinished balancing changes to the other ships.
After all, much the same can be said for the megathron, which is just master of one trade: short range. And even there a Raven or Apoc has nearly equal chances if not better.
So that's why my feeling is that Apoc and Raven love was a tad overdone lately.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:02:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tar om on 15/07/2004 13:06:58
The way I see it, the Tempest was a damage dealer with a weakness in tanking. Hard hitting but fragile and very vulnerable if you manage to get your tanked apoc/mega/raven right up close. At the moment it is perfectly designed for this apart from just one thing - its DoT is too small at range.
Now, to counter this we could increase the damage on 1400s (and the rest of large proj in proportion) but that would boost all 1400mm users, and perhaps make them attractive to ships that traditionally "shouldn't" be using them.
So, I'm kinda left with suggesting something that at first glance looks crazy. Increase the ship bonuses. It boost the DoT at range without affecting the basic character of the ship, or proxy boosting other races.
Am I crazy?
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Tar om
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:02:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Tar om on 15/07/2004 13:06:58
The way I see it, the Tempest was a damage dealer with a weakness in tanking. Hard hitting but fragile and very vulnerable if you manage to get your tanked apoc/mega/raven right up close. At the moment it is perfectly designed for this apart from just one thing - its DoT is too small at range.
Now, to counter this we could increase the damage on 1400s (and the rest of large proj in proportion) but that would boost all 1400mm users, and perhaps make them attractive to ships that traditionally "shouldn't" be using them.
So, I'm kinda left with suggesting something that at first glance looks crazy. Increase the ship bonuses. It boost the DoT at range without affecting the basic character of the ship, or proxy boosting other races.
Am I crazy?
Tar om
--
We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net
http://www.serenitymovie.com |
ProphetGuru
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:31:00 -
[83]
Yes I am concentrating on the 1v1 aspect primarily. I don't think you properly balance ships by their fleet combat attributes.
I also do not think you balance ships by having full racks of scouts, and all named gear. That is chaos syndrome.. Ships need to be balanced towards stock equipment, and I do believe tomb normally asks tests to be done using stock modules, as opposed to meta ones.
The bottom line is a tempest will not survive long enough given it's lower dot to kill another ship, before it is out tanked and killed. (I am talking about two skilled experienced pilots of course)
I do not know if just adding cpu would help, perhaps another suggestion would be more logical, but it is quite obvious to me that the ship will just not hold it's own.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
|
ProphetGuru
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:31:00 -
[84]
Yes I am concentrating on the 1v1 aspect primarily. I don't think you properly balance ships by their fleet combat attributes.
I also do not think you balance ships by having full racks of scouts, and all named gear. That is chaos syndrome.. Ships need to be balanced towards stock equipment, and I do believe tomb normally asks tests to be done using stock modules, as opposed to meta ones.
The bottom line is a tempest will not survive long enough given it's lower dot to kill another ship, before it is out tanked and killed. (I am talking about two skilled experienced pilots of course)
I do not know if just adding cpu would help, perhaps another suggestion would be more logical, but it is quite obvious to me that the ship will just not hold it's own.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
|
Siddy
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:48:00 -
[85]
What minmatar ships realy need
is speed ...
30m/s faster then avarange on BS isisnt that much
so if typhoon get 120m/s boosta and tempest get 100m/s boost it whuld realy make minmatar BS worth of something that others dont have 
-------------------------------------------
|
Siddy
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:48:00 -
[86]
What minmatar ships realy need
is speed ...
30m/s faster then avarange on BS isisnt that much
so if typhoon get 120m/s boosta and tempest get 100m/s boost it whuld realy make minmatar BS worth of something that others dont have
-------------------------------------------
|
Archfish
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:55:00 -
[87]
Problem with that is it then puts the battleships speed on a par with the cruisers... do you then up minmater cruisers speed as well etc etc
************
"We will fly at their death cannons and clog them with wreckage"
************
|
Archfish
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:55:00 -
[88]
Problem with that is it then puts the battleships speed on a par with the cruisers... do you then up minmater cruisers speed as well etc etc
************
"We will fly at their death cannons and clog them with wreckage"
************
|
Wulfgard
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:59:00 -
[89]
I just put my Tempest in a cocoon, betrayed my own race and bought a stinking Apoc.
I barely have decent skills with lasers (bs amarr lvl 3). After freeing the slaves I went to get some tachyons. First trails......
Weeeeeee... I love it!!! 
It has the feel of an uber BS! What was once the Tempest, the Apoc is now, and even better considering I maxed out all my proj & minmatar skills and I do much...much better with average amarr & laser skills.
That makes me think that, indeed, something is VERY wrong with the Tempest. I don't think it will be solve by nerfing Apoc or Raven, like some suggested, but what about revising the stats on the 1400s and 800s. I think the 1400s shld be as good or even better than the tachyons...
|
Wulfgard
|
Posted - 2004.07.15 13:59:00 -
[90]
I just put my Tempest in a cocoon, betrayed my own race and bought a stinking Apoc.
I barely have decent skills with lasers (bs amarr lvl 3). After freeing the slaves I went to get some tachyons. First trails......
Weeeeeee... I love it!!!
It has the feel of an uber BS! What was once the Tempest, the Apoc is now, and even better considering I maxed out all my proj & minmatar skills and I do much...much better with average amarr & laser skills.
That makes me think that, indeed, something is VERY wrong with the Tempest. I don't think it will be solve by nerfing Apoc or Raven, like some suggested, but what about revising the stats on the 1400s and 800s. I think the 1400s shld be as good or even better than the tachyons...
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .. 20 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |